What Lessons Can Marvel Learn From the Disney Plus Shows? + Special Guest Friend Daniel

Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU need to know a podcast dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe and everything you need to know. I'm Trey.

I'm Jude. How are you doing Trey? Well, Jude I'm excited because today we are joined by a return guest and a frequent shout out in this show. He's quickly becoming the Internet's best friend and a constant delight around the pod. We're happy to welcome back, friend Daniel to the show. Welcome back.

Hey guys.

Welcome Daniel.

Hey, how's it going?

Great to be back. Thank you. Thank you. So I got to say I've been so delighted for this intro ever since your recent appearance on There Was An Idea our friend of the pod Tara's episode or Tara's show, I should say. And she referred to you as friend Daniel as well. And I immediately texted Jude and I was like, I know what I'm going to say. The next time friend Daniel is on the podcast. It tickles me so much that that has taken off

Well like that like very early on after you joined the discord, somebody asked are you friend Daniel.

Yeah. So, Tara had her next guest was Danny. And so it became very confusing. My identity.

Well, you know, the last time that we had you on this show, it was during our Falcon and the winter Soldier run. I thought it'd be cool to use this time here at the top of the show to check in with how you've been receiving the latest iterations of the MCU entries. So we've recently just finished up Loki. We've had black widow as well, some exciting things coming up with What If...? And Shang-Chi how's how have you been receiving the MCU are you enjoying it?

Oh, well, you know, if you're on the discord, you know but

thank you.

I have been very much enjoying it. I mean, it's just, it's you know, I've caught up with you guys. And I agree with, with Jude and, and I think you said this Trey too, but that Loki is Loki was the strongest show for me. I'm kind of, I've, I've been forming my thoughts about it a little bit more, but just in terms of like cinematic scope and music and the, the, the dialogue and the action, it was the whole package.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So they, they talk about it briefly, but I'll just, I'll throw that out there. The podcast is Kermode on Film and he's a, he's a British film critic. Hilarious guy loves Christopher Nolan and they have a broad appreciation of Marvel movies and comic book movies and stuff. So, and then as far as upcoming projects, well, I just saw that Hawkeye got a release date.

Yeah.

So I'm excited about that. And I'm, I I'm very, I'm excited about Shang-Chi every time I haven't seen the most recent trailer didn't they release another trailer like yesterday.

They did. Yes,

They did. And I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't catch it.

You say embarrassed. I say strict with your philosophy. I consider that. a teaser, like a TV spot. It was only like a minute long, really Well, like okay. Philosophy wise. Yes. But like, I was scrolling through YouTube and I saw this thing about like, as new Shang-Chi trailer released. Like, I didn't even know until a good 12 hours later.

I didn't watch it. But yeah, the first trailer I was like, huh. And then the second trailer, the full trailer, not the teaser I was hooked. So I'm, I'm excited about that. And then I read, I read some stuff about it. So very excited about that. I'm really excited about Spider-Man whatever that's going to be about. And then I'm super jazzed about the, What If...? Series very, I love animation. I always loved What If comics, when I was a kid because they were one-offs and so you weren't required.

I was going to say, I think you made me excited, just talking about how excited you were.

And that's what just two weeks now it's

August 11th,

August 11th. Yeah.

And then my last thoughts about everything that's gone on. And you guys got it. Cause I, I I've, I've really enjoyed the Assembled episodes you know, post finales, but the, the Loki listeners, if you haven't watched the Loki assembled, it is profound. Like it is, it is they've, they've added something that I don't remember in the last one. That is, is is a beautiful touch and it's really good. So I would highly recommend that if you, if you haven't

seen it, It's interesting.. That's probably the best assembled.

Oh, 100%

Yeah. They've gotten better. Yes. I think they've gotten better.

Well, it feels like there's more of a presentation to Loki than the other two. And not that there was anything wrong with the other ones, but there's like a flourish and the Loki Assembled that I really enjoyed.

I mean, I'll spoil it. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's the voiceover like the voiceover, like, like Tom Hiddleston voiceover. It is new. Yeah. And, and I can't remember if they have voiceovers, but they don't have a single voice narrating the story of Loki. And

It's like you said, like you said, the story is not just a, it's not just like a hand holding your way through something. Like they actually weave a story into the making of.

Yeah. And the meaning the meaning of what this is. I think it's related to the fact that, you know, Falcon, the winter soldier I mean, you have, you have Bucky, but I don't know. It's Loki, Loki is a very strange character in his villain antihero hero. You know, return to the villain. He he's he's he has this very strange. I had no idea about the, the story that he, he was, he was at Comicon and (Kevin) Feige was like, come out as Loki.

It's yeah. Well, and I remembered Loki or Tom Hiddleston doing that. I didn't realize that story. Yeah. I just didn't know the story behind it.

It was really cool To get that run-up and framing of it as like, oh, this was a last minute thing that they decided to do behind the panel.

So that's my, my too long verbose.

No.

It's been a lot since. It's been a lot since since I I've graced your airwaves on your podcast. So

Yeah, you came on with Falcon and the Winter Soldier, not during Loki, although we had this plan before Loki came out.

Yeah, yeah.

So we had this kind of episode topic circled, and then you were on Tara's pod during Loki.

Okay. Yeah. Well, speaking of this episode, if you've downloaded it, then you've seen that the title of this episode is What Lessons Can Marvel Learn from the Disney Plus shows, so the easiest way that we can go through this is just kind of have like a round table sharing of the different lessons that we've brought here for this episode. So starting with you, Daniel, what is the first lesson that you think can be learned from the Disney plus shows?

In no particular order? I think I need to arrive at my lessons through reflection, so we'll get there. But for now, I will just say something that's excited me about this. The Disney plus is I feel like I feel the same way, especially with, with WandaVision and to some extent with Loki but I feel the same way as I did when I saw Guardians of the Galaxy, because I remember, you know, Avengers and Iron Man and they were great and they were of a genre.

Aw, I didn't see that.

I sat, it sounds like they're there. It was just something like, it's gonna, it's wild, you know, it's just, yeah, I really think they're gonna, they're gonna keep doing that. And not in a way that's like edgy or, or, or controversial, but truly like in an aesthetic sense, risky, you know, like when I, and when I think of that, I think of like, WandaVision, what the hell are we watching? You know, it's like what? I'm literally sitting here watching.

And I think you're spot on with the risky or the risks that these shows have taken. I know at least for us, when we were covering WandaVision, that was the first thing out of our mouths. I think each week when we talked about episode one and two and how bold it was to really lean in to the homages that it was making with the stylized storytelling. And I think it just continued doing that throughout each of the three disney plus show.

I made a note on this, on this point, it reminded me of my favorite shows growing up some aspects of my favorite shows growing up and how they were able to take big risks.

Well, it's funny. You mentioned we've talked about this Jose Chung's. Oh, is that isn't that the episode?

That's Clyde Brookman yeah.

Oh, that's Clyde Bruckman? Yeah. Or wait,

is it sick that I know exactly which season it is? It's in.

No, but I, I,

Trey, you know how you are with Community I'm that that way with the X-Files

How disappointed would you be to find out I've never seen the X-Files?

I, I understand it's Trey, I don't. There's no disappointment here. I promise.

Oh, fantastic!

There's no disappointment here. I probably

I was going for a rise, I'm genuinely shocked.

My podcast, my pod, my podcast list. I'm behind my podcast list is plenty of TV. It's it's your loss. It's your loss

Jose Chung's From Outer Space.

Jose Chung's From Outer Space is a different episode than the one I'm talking about

Right.

Mine is called Clyde Bruckman's Finale Reprose, which is the same season, but it's a totally different episode, but yeah, Jose Chung is another one like that. Yeah. It's like very, very weird. Th then there's there, like in, in Buffy

In fairness toTrey, in fairness to Trey season three aired in 1996.

Oh yeah. This is ancient

I would have been five, six years old, depending on the month.

Perfect age to watch this stuff. Yeah. But there's like, there's like in Buffy they had like the musical episode. They had a Zander centric episode in angel, there was a friggin puppet episode where they get chain turned into puppets. And so like, I see this in, in that vein where you've got these, these, these TV shows that had deep fan fan bases where the, the show runners or the writers took these risks and there were payoffs. Oh yeah. I feel like we're getting that here.

Well, one more episode that came to mind. Avatar Last Airbender Tales of Ba Sing Se

Which remind me that I'm not, I only watch it once

Tales of Ba Sing Se is the one where they each had their little vignette of how they spend the day.

Oh yeah. It's a freaking cartoon, like on Nickelodeon and it's like, it's just like it's so it's, it's, it's really good. And it's, it's, it's basic writing. I mean, it's not invented. New ways of doing things. They're just, they're adopting storytelling strategies from other genres and other, other mediums. It's just really cool. Like I just, yeah, no, that's, that's good. That's a good first

lesson, but what about you, dude? What's a lesson that can be learned from the Marvel shows.

I'm going to say for me a lesson this is more like a hope, something that they, they do in the future. I would like to see two more episodes. I it's, and I don't know if it's, I'm just gotten used to kind of that Netflix,

you mean like 10 episodes or eight

episodes, like, right. Two, two more episodes, 10 episodes instead of eight, which is weird for one division only because they had eight episodes, but a big part of that is this idea that they're married to six hours. And so you had some longer episodes and you had some that were shorter, so that didn't make an eight episodes, but you really time-wise is roughly the same. I would say two more episodes. I, and I, I just got finished watching mayor of east town, which I just really enjoyed.

series. There'd be, it would give them a little bit more room to breathe. It really

would. It really would. Well, I mean, I've heard a number of people say this loved to have seen a little bit more, including I think in the assembled the writer loved to seen a little bit more of rinse layer. Yeah. And, and her story, and you know, that one or two more episodes would help flesh out some of those things. Yep. Same thing with Carly and Falcon, the winter

soldier, for sure. I think even to an extent with, with Monica and Wanda vision, like she got a, she got an episode dedicated to her, but I know towards the end of the finale, it was almost kind of like she got sidelined for different stories. So I, I definitely feel that Daniel, I think you hit the nail on the head of, or no, I believe you said it. Jude, how you just got used to Netflix or HBO having these like eight to 10 episode runs.

I, I think that they it's, these three series are experiments and they've worked and I don't think they're going away, but we've talked about this before. None of these shows have learned lessons from each other because they were all. Being produced at the same time. I think they, they were like, we're going with X or Y or whatever. There was six hours.

Right? Well, I think I can jump in with mine because that segues nicely. So thank you for that set up Daniel. The lesson that I wanted to bring in this first round is I think the other three shows the ones that succeeded the most for me were the ones that treated the episodes. As a series and not as a movie that's been chopped up. And that was the feeling I got with Falcon and winter soldier.

What I hear you saying tray, the way I would interpret this embrace, embrace the format, like embrace this episodic format. Like it's it it's, it's not, it's not a six hour movie. That's this Snyder go. You know what I mean? Like that, and. No, I'm not gonna say it. So this is, this is, I agree with you about Falco and winter soldier. Like there was, it was a constant, it was linear more or less. It was linear.

and I like the way that you're so succinctly put it with the embrace, the format. I think that's a very nice way to package that feeling that I'm having is just leaning into that these are series focused more on.

Well, I'm gonna say, it's interesting with one division, you had that feeling early on, like there was a TV format, but that was more because of the concept. And as he got closer and closer to the end and ran the course of that concept, it, it shifted to that movie field rather than television field. And so in that way, I don't know if this is the right way to phrase it. Our one division, especially early on artificially treated it as a movie. I mean, I'm sorry. As a TV series.

translate it

transferred. Right, right. Yeah. And whereas like I'm with, you know, it it's embraced the format. Right.

And Jude, I would say if we can be honest, like it suffered for that, like by, I'm not saying they made it, they made a poor choice in abandoning. They had to abandon the sitcom thing. But the critique of say the finale is that it just fell into the trap of how you complete a Marvel movie, which is a big fight scene, you know? And it was like, oh, we're trying to be cinematic, which has, well, you didn't really have the budget for the, for the fight.

coming off the civil documentary, this whole idea of the show being self-acceptance and self-love, and they have this one last final fight with themselves. You know, and torn and what is, is, is the best thing to do. It just works so well, you know, we're and I think I mentioned this on pod. Like I would love to have seen in one division to have them continue that thread through what the mysterious ESC kind of scene going through the sitcoms in the end and make and instill in her, weave that

in kind of drawing off of the, the tray where we're at right now about embracing the format. I really enjoyed the week to week release and watch and rewatch and discuss. And obviously like we learned we, the audience learned a grave lesson with Wanda vision and in terms of like going off the rails and, and, and building expectations with, you know, perceived whatever. But that happens in shows.

yeah. I mean, the conversations around the show get lengthened just because of

that weekly viewing. Yeah. So I don't, I don't see, I don't see it going away. I'm glad the series aren't 22 episodes. I don't know how you can sustain that.

Yeah. Like that's too much.

I love Marvel. I love the MCU. 22 episodes would be a lot for me to keep up with,

well, to bounce off that I would just say embrace the MCU is one of my lessons learned and I feel like they're going to do that. And I guess what I mean by that is go ahead and make this required viewing. And I think they kind of did that at the end of low-key where you get, he who remains. I didn't expect it to be him for the same reason, logically, like we didn't get somebody new in one division.

again later. So like, if I think back to. To what, to what you're saying. I know you've been debating and I have been off pod with you guys. Like, did, do you have to, are these shows required watching? I don't know how you, you get to the, the, the content that's coming without having watched low-key. But like, if you think about like Wanda vision, you've got Scarlet witch, right. And there's, there's a transformation happening there. You've got Monica. Who's absolutely coming back.

sense. It does the

thing that it's making me feel and you kind of alluded to it with the way you framed it as like iron man was standalone Thor and captain America, they were building towards the Avengers and eventually got to this point where like, Hey, we've got them together now. So you do get things like Thor and the guardians or captain America, civil war, and they're together, or a lot more of these crossover events, Carol and Nick fury. You can do these interconnected things.

And they're good. They're good. And the characters are entertaining and I want to see them again.

I mentioned in the beginning of this pod, Hawkeye has this release date. We know that Julaine is going to show up. We know we're going to get Kate Bishop rumors. I'm going to say rumors right now. Okay. But I think it's almost confirmed kingpin. Oh, you show up and Hawkeye. So we're getting some new characters, but for the most part, we're following old characters, Ms. Marvel's going to be the first one where it's directly brand new character.

right? That's a good point. I see what you're saying. Yeah. The three series we've gotten so far have been operating with fully established characters and, and Ms. Marvel, and then like moon night, you know, when that whole hike she helped the whole, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're not worried about that one.

Well, you eventually

get to this point touching on him as a lot. He's

awesome. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to be gold.

I mean, I think it just circles back to your, to your, or bolstering your points, Jude about embracing it. Like I think it almost has to, because you're doing these origin stories. How could it not matter to the connectivity of the movies as well?

Right. But I'm also curious of what the impact's going to be on how they did the storytelling, because there you have an origin you have to wrestle with you. Can't just jump in like Loki. We, we mentioned, or, you know, friend Daniel mentioned the, the meta idea of just I'm going to take him out of his own story. Make them look at it and then see what happens. But you can only do that because we know his story. There's a story in place.

in Falcon, winter soldier. Ache. There's a massive question, mark. Coming off of end game. You know, this picks up from that literally is answering the question. W w what does Sam do, you know, in, in what, how do salmon Bucky deal with the fact that their friend has gone and yeah, that I, I hadn't thought about that Jude very much. It's a really good,

good

point. Cool,

man, it's been a while since we've dropped a Nick Sandy, like that, bringing it back.

Yeah, no doubt in there,

Trey. I don't know why I thought of you, but mostly because I'm watching community and now I know where you get the phrase end tag from, but the the we've been, we've been very positive. Well, no, I, I feel like we've been very measured, but leaning on the positive, but I think kind of critically, and I know you guys agree with me is like, we, we, we all kind of agree that their use of Intacs in or make credit scenes or whatever in these were, were either confusing.

Yeah. I mean, that's 100%. The next lesson that I was going to bring is the Intacs definitely need to be readdressed. You know, we talked about it a little bit with Loki, especially when Rob Logan was on and you know, my feelings just to state it clearly the Intacs for me, feel like they either are a humorous, just kind of extraneous little bit that has nothing to do with the snow steaks. Right. Group dancing you know, just stuff like that.

both of them though, both of those that you mentioned also had an in tag that had a connective tissue

as well. There were multiple end tags. Well, that's what I

was going to say. Like the, the, the other. I think successful use of them is that laying the groundwork for what comes next? I think the problem that the Disney plus shows got into is they were using pertinent information to the story within the show that I think shouldn't have been relegated to like the post credit

scenes creating the were creating cliffhangers. I mean, it was like, like with the, with the Lokeys it's like you, you P you prune our Loki and then you end the episode. That's a cliffhanger what's going to happen. Is he dead? Is he dead? Or do you, do you think maybe he's alive, but you don't know. And then you, you reveal that he's not, but you reveal these other Loki's. So we talk about that. Like, I understand why they do it.

I went back through to, to watch all the intaglio for the show so far, and I was shocked to be reminded. We don't learn that director Hayward is arrested and told the post credit scene. It's like a little one-off thing of seeing him be putting in a car, why Monica is being pulled away. And like that's one of your main antagonist. And like that's something that needs to be in the show. Rather than thought.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we've, we talked about the tag problem all the way back to Wanda vision. I think it was the snoopers going to Snoop one. Yeah. You know, which was a good Intacct, but it was like, it was like, why not just, why couldn't that be in the show, but it was, it felt like you're going to start the show with her captured and you need to figure out a way to do it. Right.

Were, were there any other tray, were, were there any other end tags and Loki Loki? No,

it was the group shot. And the season two announcement, which is honestly a step above the vendor's trailer and captain America, the first set, not

even an end tag,

I didn't consider that intact. I was disappointed. I didn't tell it. Wasn't intact.

I mean, I was pleasantly surprised. I mean, I would have liked an intact though. I felt like we deserved it. You know what they could

have done, you know, what they really could have done. You could have, and I'm not saying this is the best way to go, but it would have been consistent with the way they're treating in tags. The reveal of Mobius in hunter 15, not knowing Logan. And then locally seeing the statue of king.

That was the, that would be the end tag. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I don't know. I thought it was perfect. Well, I'm

torn because I agree. Like, I don't think

you're saying like, if, if they're being

consistent, if they're being consistent with how they're

doing, we would've thought it was crap. We would've thought it was crappy, but at least you're consistently crap.

Oh no, I totally see what you mean. Like I love, I love the way he was handled, but it would have felt right in line if they would have done that. Yeah.

And then, and then at the end tag, the Intex in a Falcon winter soldier one, I remember. John Walker making his shield. Right.

And the other one was the power broker coming out of the hearing where she's been reinstated. Right. And she's like, super soldiers are off the menu, but we're about to get access to government weapons and stuff like that. And then the slight

smile, whereas the, there was, but it wasn't, it wasn't. Oh, but Lee, the Patriot, right. Him, him or us agent him becoming us agent that was in the episode, right? Yes. That's that feels like an end tag, right? Yes.

Are we flipping them?

I know I'm I'm Trey when watched him. So I'm, I'm certain that that were introduced to USC. In the episode that I feel like

belongs. So basically, yeah. So basically they should have flipped. Those were so smart.

Well,

well, you know what? I forgot. I had wrote this a little bit that I forgot to do at the top. You know, we're so frequently putting our writer's hat on whenever we do week to week episodes this week, we're putting our studio execs hat on. Yes.

Yeah. Can I, can I throw out a small, no, I'm not gonna say small. A rumor that I heard about the, the PowerBroker thing is we're talking about that in the tags, even though it has, if right. Potential spoilers down the line, I'll

say yes, but like, I guess, you know, if you're avoiding it, scroll ahead for like 30, 40 seconds. Okay.

Okay. Oh man. Now, now I'm not sure. Cause it connects

to Spiderman. Okay. Don't wait. Don't say it well, just cut it out and then say it

again. I'll drop it. Forget

it. I'll drop it. Well, I want to know what it is. I've been sitting on this, but I'll I'll, this is the second rumor that you've dropped in this. This is it's true. Bad Jude. You did

the

kingpin one. Well, that's all over the news. I feel like that's over. They've been reporting that

and like, and like the only reason why I felt comfortable bringing it up is because Vincent is that

saying that

right? Trey, Vincent and Vincent done off for you. And I know this because this is a running bit now it's your turn to get it wrong.

So so yeah, but no, like. I think either is retweeted or liked and he's pretty active on Twitter. Yeah. An article or something about the rumor that it could be interpreted as like how he just, you know, wants it to happen. But people are interpreting it as a confirmation.

Well, I'm going to find this now. Yeah.

I'm very curious about the Spiderman thing.

Now I'll tell you what I'll tell you off. I'll tell you when we're done recording.

Okay, cool. So another lesson that I was thinking about was just a lot of the production aspects of the, of the shows, but especially with Loki was the, it gets connected with the risk-taking, but the music was tremendous. And so I, and, and I've gone and listened to look. I enjoyed listening to the Falcon of the winter, winter soldier soundtrack more than I expected. I, and that caused me to kind of go back and listen to some of the soundtracks.

Yeah. One divisions intro outro. Yeah. Wonder I was gonna say one division outro was the same each time. Yes. And then the intro is different, but that was a function of

the whole storytelling that was straight up storytelling.

The sitcom format. Yeah.

And, and low-key, it was just for the, it was just for the sake of it. I love that. I think that's awesome. It speaks to the aesthetic of the show in the sense that it takes aesthetics in themselves. It's like, this is good in itself. It's not it's it's it actually it's excessive. And it's it's in line with Loki.

Well, what does the symbol say? Loki plays all

the keys, right? Plays. That was, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, that show he plays all the keys. So, I mean, that's, it, it was, it was, it was indulgent. It wasn't excessive because excessive denotes, it was a little too much, it was indulgent like a big bowl of ice cream, you know, or something, something you shouldn't have too much of. It was indulgent and I love indulgent. I love big fat books. Like I love reading like thousand page books. That was, that was, that's what you get with low-key.

but it works so well. It you're right. The end of an episode would leave you a particular feeling and they wouldn't take you out of the feeling with the outro music

they kept you in and then they, but you also saw it with the, the, the, the care for the, the unique aesthetic of the place. Of the TVA of the of the rocks cart setting of the Citadel they were of momentous was, was mind blowing. And that's not too, that's not, I'm not trying to take away from the very careful, wonderful work that was done on Falcon, winter, soldier, and one division. It just, maybe it speaks to my imagination more. It speaks more to my imagination. It was indulgent. Yeah,

I think, cause you're definitely right. The, the steps they took with Loki in the music created that tailored experience, the way it changed on, you know, at the end of the episode, but you know, you're echoing one of the things I wrote down, I think all three of the series had great music and it seems like it's a great lesson moving forward to keep investing.

I think that absolutely. In, in like in picking up in what you're saying, Trey, I think that each, each of these shows had its own unique flavor. And I think it's fair to say that Falcon with winter soldier was definitely playing to that more traditional Marvel movie. It's definitely what you were getting. One division, very unique in his character. Low-key very unique in its character.

Well, I'm wondering if that's just going to be a trend for the MCU in general. And, and it's hard to judge right now only because I'm thinking about how wild we expect Dr. Strange and Spiderman Noah home to be we have Sean cheek coming out and black widow like that movie, as much as I agree, like, oh, we should've had it sooner in terms of a black widow movie. I agree that we don't get that movie, that same movie if it was sooner. And I think that part of that is that comfortability.

I see what you're saying, dude, as it relates to black widow, I see what you're saying, that that kind of unique stamp and I mean, there in the

sheriffs are a perfect place to do these Disney plus shows. Perfect place to do

that. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

yeah. I think that is a good swath of lessons to be learned from these Disney plus shows. So we're going to move into this next section, which is simply, which of the three shows is the closest model of your examples. I have a feeling based on the enthusiasm, but I'll go ahead and ask Daniel, which one is the one that executes it closely?

Low-key yeah. And that's just because I think I identified it there at the end. Of my last point is, is the, the, the specific aesthetic and feel of Loki, what it's trying to do the specific content to about self-acceptance and the radical way in which it was operating narratively, each episode, kind of undercutting, undercutting, what was quote true before? Like it, it would present itself coherently.

you say interlude, you mentioned it on Ontario's pod

spot. It's her word? She, she introduced that when she was when she had her guests ch on and I talked about it because I thought it was such a great concept to help me understand. What was going on in episode three.

Right. But it, it, it just the way you, the way you spoke about it on terrace pod was it was in the context of music, right?

Yeah. And I've also seen that concept used in certain theology, monographs and philosophy books, you know, like, like arguments that people make. They will have a chapter. That's an interlude where they introduce something that seems out of left field, but it's, it's, it's like it's a way of playing the motif of your argument using, using something that, that seems to be kind of out there, but

Gladwell so

much. Why? Because he does the interlude. What do you mean?

That's his whole style to take seemingly well, I mean, this is his whole style, right? As a deconstructionist, let's just take this whole seemingly left-field things that you're like, what am I, what are we to and talking about this? And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. He's he's I love Malcolm Gladwell, but he's too cute by half. Like sometimes like he's, he's a little excessive. Yeah. He's excessive. And he's a bit, he's a bit, he's got the journalistic flat. He leans more not to knock journalists. I would say he's got the, he's a show. He's a bit of showman, but he's, he's he's certainly fun and makes you think.

yeah. Well, I'm going to say, go back and say, that's the problem with not two things, not embracing the MCU fully and not embracing the TV format, just because. If, you know, this story is going to continue in the universe. And as a limited series, I think you lean into that roll into it, and you don't feel the pressure of having to complete it, like complete your story here, knowing that I have this story and it's done, but it's clearly going to continue on elsewhere and that's okay.

What do you, so what do you guys I'll present the question to you guys?

Just the metaphor of MCU fatigue in the truck and Falcon pushing back against it. Whereas the Disney plus shows come in.

I

had to get it in there. Yeah, no, I agree with you that it's low-key but I also agree with you to say low-key probably had the advantage in the season too.

Yeah, no, I, I think you kind of shed some light on that for me as well. Daniel, when you talked about how it's, it's not a fair comparison for Loki and the other two shows, given that it has that continuation to the next season. So the way you phrase it, Jude with that, an unfair advantage is kind of where

I'm at now. Even with that in mind. W w before knowing that Logan was going to have a season two, each episode of Loki felt like a proper end, like you would get with a TV series. Yeah. And so before knowing that, and just the experience of watching it, regardless of my feelings and bogged down in mechanics and all of that, at the end of each episode, it felt like the end of an episode, and we're going to wait a week for the next episode.

Yeah. I agree that the, the best example of that for me is episode three, when we're all watching, waiting for them to get off the planet or something. And it's just over there looking up, it blows up Sylvie turns around and walks away and it's over. And you're like, you don't do this to us. What are you, what are you doing? I mean, that's not. That's geez.

Well, I'd say the same thing when Moebius and Loki got pruned and undercutting that moment with the intact. Yeah. Like, like they were able to pull the rug out from under us and expectations. It's like, oh man. Yeah. I

thought they killed them because for two reasons, one, they had already killed Moebius. So they foreshadowed it. The state, they foreshadowed the stakes mobi for me. Moebius. Character arc had completed. I think I talked about this in Tara's pod. He had just completely flipped and betrayed Brent Slayer and freed low-key and was like, you've been lying to us. His character story had had resolved. And so I was like, oh, he's dead. You know? Cause he's like, he, he, he hasn't more function.

you know, and I'm sure I'm thinking through one division, it's hard to tell because so many episodes in the beginning had that sitcom format. Right. And then you start to, and they played with that to take you in and out of the show and even where you roll the credits, but the credits got interrupted with the eighties format, you know, and, and you got sucked in, in faculty, the winter soldier.

here

thinking, yeah. I mean, the only other that I can think of the one where

they kills that guy in the street. Yeah. Yeah. But that was just, that was just brutal. Right. You know, that was just brutal. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like, it wasn't like a, it was just a brutal and then it was like, oh

yeah. But in the terms of like, just yeah. Yeah. So that's a good one. Those two.

Yeah. It was memorable. It was memorable. So yeah. What about what about you, Trey? Yeah, I

mean, it's my answers low-key as far as the, yeah, examples given throughout the episode, it's just that one, I think ticks all the boxes of the lessons that I want to see continued moving forward. Well, I think that is going to do it for these lessons learned, but before we wrap up, we do want to do one little fun question, which is if Disney plus existed through the infinity saga, what show would you pitch to Marvel?

more. Yeah. I was thinking like, you know, a Hawkeye stay at home. Dad runs a local bowling alley. You know, on the farm? No. Oh, that might be interesting. God, I know that that's where it's difficult where my first idea feels so generic and probably why I'm better as a backseat writer, executives, actual writer, executive cause part of me.

There's two ways to think about this question. One is. To imagine gaps in the story, right. That you could fill in or, you know, and like, so I'm thinking, was it you guys who talked about, like, someone talked about like a series where you follow is it Luis and man and might've been me like, yeah. It just like, I was, I'm looking at my Disney plus app and I'm looking at all the movies

1, 2, 3, 4.

Yeah. And I'm like, it must've been a question of the week or something, but then it's like, you know, that would be it. Maybe it was the same question, Trey, like what Disney plus show would you like to see back in the summer of 2020 when you guys, when we were starved of content, but like, but like I was thinking like, are we getting a group cartoon or something? Yes, I am. I want to see, I want to see that I thought of guardians and I was like, oh, I'd love to see like a rocket.

The way you categorize that as like either filling in the gaps or from a different perspective, which would be

really, really

cool. Hmm. See different perspective. What would I want fleshed out

or like what you were saying, Jude, I know you're joking, but like, you know, like a different format, right. You know, like, like, like a risk, a risky wild take on. On something. Well, you could go

back.

Oh, wow. Oh my gosh. The winter soldier, the winter soldier. Yeah. The winter soldier that I want to see that series. I want to see that series.

Well, so you can go back cause they didn't hit me and they clearly established Hank Pym acting as ant man younger. And you could give kind of adventures of man and wash Janet van Dyne. That would be

fantastic.

I still think, I still think the green acres Hawkeye would be fun though. You, you can just see where he breaks the tractor, where Tony has to fix it because he doesn't know what he's doing with it.

So I remember when, when Wanda vision started and then when we were in the thick of Falcon, when the soldier we talked about the post. Blip world the, the, like the blip, like the what? Like what happened? Like the five-year gap? Yeah. Yeah. The five-year gap, like stuff happened. That'd be really, really cool stuff

happened. What I feel like, I know Elitch's answer. Would we want an agents of sword show kind of build in right there up to one division?

I was, I was on the discord during that, when I was listening to that pod. Yeah. Harsh, harsh on a for sure.

Yes. Yeah. Well, you know what? She, not only she came in swinging there's stuff. There's some swing she made before we even started recording. They didn't even make it.

I can understand though. Cause when, when that show first started, I was quite invested in it. And it was definitely connected to the MCO. Yes. It was written by Jaya with like the early seasons were written or at least conceived by Josh Sweden with his brother. Yeah. And, and then, and then there was a falling out or whatever, and just, it didn't, you know, they stopped and now it's officially not cannon. And so I could see that that's that's that leaves some, some bad, bad mojo.

Yeah. Well, I think that's going to do it for this episode, friend, Daniel. I just want to say thank you so much for joining us. It has been an

absolute blast. It's a pleasure to be here anytime. This is a fun way. I've this is my first Dematic episode. I really like your approach here. So I'm very, very happy to be here to talk about this and to kind of look back on these three shows and think about what. Well, we did. I hope we haven't, it's not like I'm recency bias you know with low-key, but I do think I do.

well, Moonlight, cause that'll be, I guess the one where do they really learn? You know, do they truly learn from these shows? Yeah.

Yeah. So that'll be the first real

test of of the Disney

plus shows.

Although I have a feeling we might be able to find a way to get you on before a year from now and midnight. I hope so.

We'll see.

That'll be a lot of catching up

on everything in the MCU if we wait that long, but we'll see. We'll see if, if, if something happens. Yeah.

If you want to keep up with more of the musings of friend Daniel, you can always find them in our discord that if you want to comment or have any questions about this episode, you can always reach us at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram, or if you'd like to join the discord, as we were just talking about, you can find a link. In the show notes as well.

Once you get to the discord, make sure you go to the role, assign click on the emoji. It will give you access to all our spoiler channels on your podcast, catcher of choice. Make sure you follow us, leave a rating and review. It was a huge help for us in the feedback and the best thing you can do for us to share with a friend. Yeah.

We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is his rendition of the Avengers theme. You play more of his work on his SoundCloud, which is linked in the show notes as well. All right, that's going to do it. Thank you so much for listening and June Daniel. Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you tray. Thank you,

Daniel. Thank

you. We'll see you all

next week. Hey, Trey. Yeah. Is there a outline? Yes. I emailed

it to you.

Is it in the email?

Let me see. I thought I emailed

it to you. Is it in, is it in the invite? It was, I

sent it the same. Excuse me. I sent it the same night that I did the remotely, but let me double

check. Maybe I got into junk on

that. Hurts my feelings. No no that was on me. I'm sorry. I did not send it. I knew you had one. All right. I just sent it now. It's pretty, it's pretty standard at, since it's, since we're all just bringing our own lessons, I figured we could just kind of do like a round table sharing thing. I sent you the wrong one.

Can you send me the template?

Well, they're all named template. He hasn't

started Nate renaming. Oh, you're one of those

dude. Jared has been very great, but he also understands that I'm a monster when it comes to yeah. Covered

in icons. We're not going to go that

far.

Yeah. Okay. A lot of judgment here. It's

fun. My desktop is covered in icons. I've gotten better though, especially for the pod about better naming conventions.

Okay. Now you should have the template out.