Captain America: The Winter Soldier Retrospective Review (Part Two)

How clever was that to hide it behind a stick of gum?

Um, and I think having a conversation with Daniel, uh, I believe he, he said even he was glad that we actually brought that up upfront, you know? Um, but yeah, it's, it is Trey's favorite movie and we're on page 15 of his 30 notes, so close page 18. And so, but this is where we are for us to structure wise, act to this scene. And then we will finish up our thoughts on act to move into act three, um, and then kind of wrap up. Uh, so yeah, so Trey picking up here, where do you want to start?

And so I think starting here picking up where we are in the mall, where they have gotten their USB, they're using it in the apple store and they now have to evade the Hydra agents. It is such a wonderful flip that. If Natasha and Steve are opposite ends of a spectrum in a modern world, then Natasha is someone that has completely adapted to this. She knows how to play the game if you want to put it that way.

So, you know, something they mentioned in the, the director's commentary is how important it was to take these established heroes and have them playing from their back foot, which I think is the only believable way to sell like, oh, Hydra really does have the upper hand here. So the fact that Steve Rogers is kind of lost and it is up to Natasha to teach him how to navigate this world, I think is such an interesting flip.

And it demonstrates a skillset that has only been talked about with Natasha, but we get to really see it in full display here.

Um, you, the listener, the Royal you, you know, and Trey, uh, but actually as you bring that up about being just as much Natasha's movie and getting to see that you kind of get that out of this, and even looking ahead to civil war, what the, you know, you kind of do get a arc here between those two together in, in, you know, I, I'm not saying at all that like, oh, we didn't need her movie because we had an arc. If you put all these movies together, that's dumb.

I highly glad we got the black widow movie. Um, I think it's documented on our Twitter. I put that as the best movie are my favorite or best movie of 2021, but I do like that. There you do get that feeling of as much as it's captain America's movie. There is an arc, you know, uh, which is weird because like, thinking back to where we ended in that one scene, I was also, you know, I was the one that said it was like, oh, I would have loved to have seen that moment where winter soldier shot her.

And that moment is about building up winter soldiers, mystique, maybe, uh, and, and really doesn't flesh out Natasha as much because we don't see it later, but you do get to see her shift of spy and what that was an Avengers we see are here. And what that role is, the relationship that develops the Steve Rogers, how that relationship gets complicated and civil war, because I'm friends with Steve Rogers, I'm checking in with Steve, but ideologically agree with Tony. And then I don't.

And so you actually get a nice little storyline for Natasha. Through those two movies.

And she's like, yeah, the person who encrypted this drive is slightly smarter than me slightly. Like, I like that, that feeling of like, oh, this is the start of our path towards good. Like we were on our way. And they do such a great job of establishing here, especially with the way, like, I mean, it was just the tension of the scene of like Steve Rogers is nervous. When does Steve Rogers get that nervous where he's constantly looking over your shoulder and Natasha plays it cool.

While you have all the different hydrate agents coming in from the top of the escalator to different floors. It's just it's so,

Yeah, it's I, I liked having the contrast

Whereas Roger's, you know, his, I mean, he is honesty. That is what he wants to live. That is his ideal world. And what he expects of others is to constantly be there on itself. So it puts us in a situation where like, okay, who is the quote unquote, right. One. But I think it is getting us to this point where received there's a happy medium between them.

And I think there is a way for Natasha to be a little bit more true to herself without sacrificing the ways that she's adapted in the skill sheets has picked up just as much as there is a way for Steve Rogers to not be that rigid. Always have to be honest and fit into this more modern world. Well, and

Um, so I really liked that scene. Now, the question I have, and, and again, I talked about this, it's really weird because I, I, I do love this movie and, and listening back to last week's pod, I was like, okay, am I coming across as, too negative? Uh, I don't want to come across as, too negative because it's such a good movie. People love this movie. And so that's why I keep framing it of like, where's the evolution of my thought.

And thinking about what are the things that stood out and wondering why did it stand at this time versus last time, the first watch when they did that scene of. No kiss me public displays make, make people uncomfortable is like, yes, it does. And I wonder to what extent that was necessary. You know what I mean? Like in writing and making that choice, because that was like a gateway to, Hey, I want to ask you this question. Was that the first time was it that bad?

No. And so you get into that really good conversation, right? That was meaningful and good for those characters, but there was an element of like, they're not dating. We know they're not dating because. But outside of Tony and pepper, maybe the only on string, Chris, we'd seen Jane Foster and Thor off the tee Gomorrah that up to

Uh, maybe, maybe, maybe because of the pod, maybe because I put myself in such a position of thinking about the intentionality of choices they make in the writing room, you

But I think as long as we keep a healthy lens of like trying to pick out what it is that it's sticking out to us, I think it's, you know, it's hopefully not too negative from the audience's perspective, but that's never our intention, but to circle back to. The question at hand within the movie, you know, I listen again, listening to the director's commentary, they brought it up in that they debated that for so long and they were very cognizant of like, they needed to have meaning in it.

Otherwise it's just like, oh, you're doing it for romantic tension sake. And I'm cleaning it up a little bit for the podcast. And so I get that they had the right intentions, but they end on a plus of kiss is always fun. And it's like one step forward and two steps back and the intentionality of it. Right. I think it kind of works because again, it is demonstrating that like, I mean, that is part of Natasha skillset, right?

The, I don't think social engineering is the right term for it, but it's kind of that, that feeling of like, okay, these, this is how people work. This is how we're going to make them uncomfortable so that we can stay hidden. Um, but I can understand why it's something that stands out to you as

Like if the whole idea is divorcing Steve Rogers from just the mantle to really be able to come back to it and wield it in a way that feels more meaningful to him going back to that start and that being the place where we learn, Hey, shield, isn't what we thought it was. It is actually Hydra that has been growing under secret for so long. It just it's, it's a great turning point for this film. And it works in tandem.

If you go back to that scene where he's consulting with Peggy, and he's talking about like, I don't know who I am anymore. I don't know what it is that I stood for. And she's like, oh, you're being dramatic. Sometimes the only thing we can do is start over. And it's just, it's an echo of that conversation and putting it to practice in here and the fact that they literally have to delve deeper.

What better demonstration of the sororities story circle than getting to the bottom of this secret vase?

The fact that Steve now has to wrestle with, I gave my life to this. I thought I stopped this. And it is back like what more than to drive our character further into that paranoia than to realize what he gave his life for. Actually didn't stop it.

Like, like those are really, really, if you find a particular ideology that is worth dying for right. Sacrificing yourself for the idea that like the, the ideology goes away. Cause it's, it's not a person. Um, there's just false. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it makes sense that it's going to creep back up and in some way, and to have now that manifestation in shield, you know, and I mean, you carry it forward, right? Like that was the reason why he did.

Want to sign their Cobia cords. I've seen this happen twice actually of, you know, and, and so, so yeah, I, I do find that really fascinating. And what would psychologically, what that might've meant for him. And again, timing you can't explore that. But to say, yeah, like I, you know, not only it was self sacrifice, like crap, I had to come back, you know, to find this out and miss out on however many years. And I'm now 90, you know, and we're still fighting the same things. I mean, what

For me, I don't see much different, you know? Um, and so let me put it this way. The, the line from Zola was hydro was found on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom. Okay. Hydro learned that humanity needed to surrender its freedom willingly. My next out is he's not wrong. Like that's like, he's right. You know what I mean?

It's I mean, when you think about, and that was my call to action, it's like, okay, when you watch this thing about some philosophical things that came up, you know, and think about what project insight is going to do that if you watch a documentary like that. Well, the two that come to mind, the social dilemma and terms and conditions may apply, you know, what are all those little fine print things that none of us.

Can we just sign away, um, for convenience, you know, and, and what is the, the data being used for it being sold for, you know, and I mean, the number of times where I go home to, you know, the few times that we get to be together, right. Next thing, you know, like my Facebook ads, if I'm looking on Facebook or whatever is going to be local to back home where I grew up and visiting you.

And then it takes a couple of times for my phone GPS, tracker locator to re orient, and now I'm getting local stuff again. Uh, actually a guy I work with goes overseas a lot over the summer and, you know, he comes back for school and he's like, I'm still getting these ads for, you know, stuff from Europe. And we willingly do that, you know? And, and so in that sense, I find it fascinating that ideologically, like hydro evolved to the point where. The right.

Like we need to willingly give it over. And I mean, their big misstep was that they were going to kill everybody, you know?

At least from my understanding of how algorithms work, because everybody's always like, oh, our phones are listening to us. That's how they know to service this ad or that ad. But the more horrifying thing is they don't need to listen. Like they can base off GPS, the proximity of other phones that you're connected with. It makes these educated guesses based on the behaviors that you have inputted into the device.

And that is not any different than what Jasper Sitwell says is the plan with project insight. It was a book that they were reading to target people that they perceived as threats. And if we're on that limb of power, thoughts have changed upon just when we watch this, it is kind of even more horrifying to me that I think there is a broader understanding of how this works, but I don't think people have the same fear that is depicted in this scene in 2014 that we thought it would have had.

It was like, no, no. Like the, the amount of information you have, you know, when you think about the ability to misinform and cater, what gets in front of people's faces and those types of things like, and you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if the Russo brothers and the writers were aware of this, but, you know, you need your big action sequence and you're not going to be like, oh man, they're going to manipulate us. I will blow up their building. You know, like, no, that doesn't work.

No you're going to, you know what I mean? Uh, so I wonder how much actually, they were aware of this in terms of. In the writing. Cause that's, it's scary. It's very scary. You've convinced me. This was going to be my last episode. I'm going to go off the grill yesterday. Well, it needs to be done by yesterday. It might take me, you know, 24 times. However many days they get to the end of the school year, that many hours, if I'm a Nick fury, it, I got to subtract at least half that time.

Cause that's a reasonable thing to do.

What was on the director's mind again, not to keep beating this drum, but it's one of the first times I was listened to the director's commentary for a movie that is something that they were talking about. That even though it is a superhero film and you can only go so far, it was something that they were keeping in mind because that's how they wanted to differentiate it. They wanted to imbue these real world ideas that they had into this superhero film.

And, you know, I've talked about it before. That's the thing that I love about. Uh, comic book movies is that it is dealing in extremes. Uh, although the scary part is how less and less, it seems like it's becoming extreme, but for the most part, they are dealing in taking things to the absolute, maximum potential of what that fear is. So that's, what's, that's the superhero language.

Um, but circling back to the moment and captain Lehigh, where they're discussing with Zola, one of the things that, that commentary ended up informing me about that scene in a way that I haven't thought about it before is so often throughout, even past the MCU, but throughout all captain America stories, he is brought back to comment at the times at hand, and this was their chance to really have captain America make a stance of where we were heading with

social media and these algorithms and the security that we are striving for in. In and what we're giving up to get to that point. So this was their, their way of dealing with that. And what makes Zola so brilliant in that scene is how he is able to dump all of that information onto us, because it's a huge amount of information that they're giving to us in a moment, but dump it in a way that doesn't break the realism of the film, because we were playing by the.

Uh, the, what we've already bought into in the superhero world. Like it's not that big of a stretch to have somebody implant their mind into a computer and to have that bridge of the past with technology being the thing to break the news for Steve Rogers is again, what continues to make this so brilliant.

If you think about when he went into the ice and where we're at technologically, like the gradual advances that in my lifetime, I got to experience that he had a rush coming out to them, like, so, so think about this, this way. The movie was made in 20 14, 14, and he makes the comment, the internet. Oh, so helpful. The internet in 2014 is unbelievably different than the internet in the mid to late nineties. When I was in. Or early two thousands in college, you know what I mean?

And like that rush and that level of technology, you know, I, I, yeah, I would definitely see him and just be like, get off my lawn. Like, this is not how we do things, you know, this isn't

I mean, the, the way that the internet is constantly evolving, you know, I've mentioned this book before on the podcast and I've yet to finish it, but I need to, uh, it was a book called, uh, present shock, and essentially dealing with how us today are dealing with the immediacy of just constantly being. In tune with everything and everyone and news all the time and how that has just changed the way that we think as a, as a species.

I can't imagine what that is like for Steve Rogers who woke up in this and is already having to deal with the present shock on top of the present shock that modern people are dealing with as well. Yeah,

Um, but this whole idea of personal identity and the body and the mind, I mean, Zola downloaded his mind or himself to a computer. Okay. Technically speaking, that's probably slower than my iPhone. Um, when you look at what's in the room, um, just, just saying, you know, light, like technically speaking, like Siri could probably take you, but, but it does bring up to me. It was interesting philosophical thing of like, okay, wait a minute. What is the MCU? And I don't know.

And from the, from the, from the director's commentary, I don't think they were trying to do this, but this is just the way I think about things and things that interest me. What is the MCU trying to say about who we are and what it means, um, to, to be us in this mind, body problem, you know, cause here you're clearly like they want you to say this is Zola, this isn't, you know, I, I'm not talking to a computer that is. Plugged into a wall that has electricity running to it.

That's running an algorithm that is making guesses as to what Zola would think and say, based off of downloaded past memories and content, you know what I mean for content, for lack of a better term, they want you to think that this is Zola, right? Because what Zola did was a conscious choice. I'm stalling, I'm, you know, the, the missile coming at them, you know, to the idea to think I'm going to stall you. So the missile can come and I can launch the missile, um, alert Hydra to, to be here.

Like that is all creative, active thought, if that makes sense. Um, and maybe, you know, people are gonna disagree with me. That's fine. But what I mean by this creative, actual thought is, you know, otherwise it's an algorithm. That's making these assumptions based off of this content or data that was downloaded from the person Arnold, you know, um, Armand Zola.

And so I just found that fascinating here, the com the, the commentary it was making, you know, especially cause like the general line is what we don't get into any kind of spiritual or mystical stuff till Dr. Strange. And you have those really cool scenes where, you know, um, and we've seen it in multiple movies now, you know, thinking, um, in game in Dr. Strange where it was like Dr. Strange gets pushed out of his body and there's clearly a separation.

Well, like with the first instance we get of that actually is right here. Well, we can actually go all the way back to Jarvis and what is Jarvis, but it's just fascinating to me of like, of like, what is that? W what are they, you know, what is that idea? What are they putting out? You know, are we more body than mind? Are we more mind than body?

Is, is it, well, I would argue that the, for the MCU, it is not a, I don't know the right word I'm looking for, but it's, it's not a combining of the two. They can clearly be separated. Um, and that was something that I just, this time around, I was like, oh, I just, I got just, you know, just sucked down that hole of like, oh, I gotta, you know, this is fascinating to me. Um, so yeah, so like, that was.

I don't know why, like that was, that was something that, that, and we, and we've dealt with this as he people, you know, we have that, we've had the movie avatar we've had, we've had the matrix, right. We've had the matrix come back again and resurrect. Cause that was a good idea. Um, you know, we had the previous movie with Keanu Reeves before the matrix that made people actually back in 99, people don't remember, there was nervous about a great, another Keanu Reeves computer movie.

Uh, cause he was in Johnny mnemonic where the whole idea was like, I'm going to race the mind and it's like a hard drive. Right? Um, Kind of thing. And there was a John Cusack movie. I don't remember the name of it where he put his memories into a computer so we can live on. So like we've dealt with this a lot, you know, and like, as humanity, we're, we're curious about this.

Um, and, and so like, I don't know why, and that just stuck out to me this time of winter soldier of just like, oh, like, what is that interaction happening right here? And what, what is the MCU saying about us and people, uh, saying that that is, you know, acknowledging that that's

Willingly people put up that information to be read like a book again, if superhero movies are dealing in extremes, Zola has literally put his life into a computer, which is the exact same argument that Hydro's making about what we do in our relationship with the internet. And so it's like, it makes me want to rewatch it now that you have provoked this thought because yeah, I think that's a very interesting thing to, uh, to observe like,

Um, So we have the lookout, Tony Stark's coming back, download a conscience. I don't know.

You know, as important as Sam is to this moment, the place I want to stop first is that conversation between Steve and Natasha and the reason why is we already talked about it a bit with the conversation and the truck. Uh, for me, this conversation is the inverse of that moment. Um, we have gotten to the point of the film where everything Steve thought he knew was a lie. And at this point it should be his world is flipped upside down. He should be at wit's end. Natasha points out.

You seem pretty chipper for somebody who just found out everything is fake and he has the line, I guess. I just like to know who I'm fighting. If that is not like a fantastic Steve Rogers moment, I don't know what it is. And the thing that makes it beautiful is that, whereas in that truck scene, Natasha, that was the one that was cool and collected. It is now here, Steve having to mentor her through this realization of, I thought I was operating under the orders of somebody I could trust.

And now I no longer can. What does that say about me when I thought I was giving my life for something good. And so it just, it feels like a beautiful inverse in closing what it is we started after they, they started escaping from the hospital. Yeah,

Um, but the idea that it's an inverse of what we see from Steve, I didn't, it didn't click, uh, for me. Uh, so that's, yeah, that's fantastic. Um, and I love the answer of, of Rogers, of like, I just want to know who to fight, um, you know, which is w which I think shows kind of that I just, for fun, I want it, cause I want to say it, it shows that you get off my lawn. Um, and what I mean by that is like it oversimplifies.

The past to say this, but, but, but I think we, we, we look at the past sometimes in this light, uh, fairly or unfairly, but this idea of like, oh, back when you know, Steve was going on world war two, and this, it was so clear cut, and you knew who you were fighting and this was good and this is bad. And now everything's so jumbled, you know? And so it is one of those like, like almost in that line, there's also like, it just, you know, I just want things to be simple.

Again, I, it just tell me who to fight, you know? Uh, because you had a face, you had a name, you had something tangible. Um, now I realized that is oversimplifying. What, what it was like to live during that time. You know what I mean? But like, that's kinda what I got out of that line to say, I just, I just need to know who to punch and not in a sense of like, oh, just the Hawkeye, I'm a weapon point me or this like brainless meat head. Just tell me who to punch.

But like, like, it was almost just this sign of a frustration, you know, uh, the side of frustration and being exhausted and that comment.

Um, and that's what that line speaks out to me. It's not, not so much just like, oh great. I know, I know who to beat up. Now. It is. I have a clearer understanding of, of the values that I want to adhere to and how to apply it to this world that I find myself in. Yeah.

And so like being in that head space, I think is part of where I'm looking at of just like, just please tell me who to fight. Like, you know what I mean? Cause it's like, um, so yeah, so it's not that I was trying to be reductive. It w it was just this kind of like, like, okay, just tell me what to do. Uh, this is my skillset. Let me go use it, you know? Um, So I feel like it was a moment of frustration, if that makes sense. Yeah.

And we just talked about what that is for, for Natasha, as he's helping her see, like, Hey, maybe there is times where you can, can. Be true to who you are without feeling like you have to deceive to fit into this world. And on that same token, I mean, he doesn't even have to go through that transformation because this is just who he is. Sam is willing to go and fight alongside captain America because it is aligned with his ideals as well.

And I like the speed at which he's like, oh yeah, you know, I was, I was out of this, but captain America needs my help. Of course, I'm going to jump back in. And so I think this moment it starts to reclaim the light or the beacon of hope that I think the, the, the shield mantle becomes in wanting to inspire other people to do the right thing.

But like I think what it shows about Sam's characters is his, and we see this throughout Sam, if you decide to track him or just watch Falcon in the winter soldier, but he has such a strong sense of duty and obligation and that sense of doing what's right. That it's like when, when he says that and sees this in captain America, like Kevin American needs my help, you know? And so I am obligated. I have a duty to render that assistance because I'm capable, you know?

And so I love the, you know, it's not just a corny line, you know, it, it truly gives an insight into, to Sam's character and that character like, like virtue, like his character virtue.

This is their quote unquote small army, but it is because now they trust each other and they can work together in tandem because there is Goodwill bought between servicing those friendships.

You have Jasper said, well, uh, yeah, sit well, I'm sorry that the senior center, but capturing Jasper sit well, like, and then the car chase scene and then like, so he has a gradual build up until the final action sequence. We don't just, he's just not jumped right into it. Um, and again, my, my critique of, of the Hawkeye, that last scene where Kate fought you, be careful here, big, bad.

I'll put it that way just in case, um, where I, it felt like too much too quick, you know, in that gradual leveling up of what we've seen her do. Um, whereas here, there, there is that trust, but. We're still movie. Right. And there is, okay. You know, let's integrate Sam into this team and it's not just okay. Go and do task now. You know what I mean? Um, and so that, that is something I do appreciate this. Uh, oh.

And maybe it's just so well paced, uh, again, it's the Russo brothers like that shouldn't be a surprise that it was all

You know, I already talked a little bit about it, how it's it's, you know, the beacon of hope. This is the reclaiming of that mantle. Um, this really feels like our team firing on all cylinders together and having found a way to do it. That is not relying on the compartmentalization that Nick fury was, uh, putting forth at the beginning of the movie. This, this is founded truly on trust and I like how it stretches the. Limits of trust by splitting these people up, like you have them together.

And then eventually Natasha gets on the run. Steve gets taken out through the bus and Sam is left up alone providing cover on the top. But because this team has jelled, they are able to fight through this scene together and make it out. Um, almost in one piece, the, there there's some, some wounds here and there, but it's just, it's narratively working on a great level for me. And I mean, what, what better test for this team than the winter soldier himself?

And again, if so much of this movie is Steve figuring out who he is, the test that they give him to bring back his past and this form of, of Bucky, which he doesn't know it at this point quite yet, but we, uh, and subsequent views. It's just it's the past is literally coming back to fight him. And if the question for him is can he save the ideals of his past in this modern setting? That is the problem of Bucky. In a nutshell,

Can I teach him the things that I have learned up to this point? I think it just makes it such a dramatically rich, um, section that we're dealing with in, and you see it in the way that the fights are taking place.

Um, because I mentioned in last week's first part of captain America stories, working at their highest potential, whenever they're treating the shield as its own character, the first time they had their confrontation, Bucky catches the shield and throws it back because Steve wasn't ready for it. Now that shield is switching places back and forth between Steve and Bucky. And it doesn't matter because it is Steve, who is sure of what his ideals are. And I think he has more than.

Equipped to handle this until the revelation of, oh, this is Bucky.

Like you're faced with Bucky, you know, like it, like, it has a face, the enemy now has a face and, or let's put it this way. Cap got what he wanted. I know who to fight the winter soldier. Damn. It's my best friend. Like And so and so in, in that sense and in that, and that reveal, you know, it's that I find fascinating, you know, like it's a simplicity, I know who to fight now, but oh, this is there. Um, now I love the sequence and the way they got to that point, you know?

Cause it was so again, the brilliance of the Russo brothers with the close camera, that in tight, you know, quick actions, um, it just felt so personal, if that makes sense. And then when you had that reveal. And in Rogers realizes who he was going so hard against, you know, that I think, I think that's the other thing that made that moment. So impactful is how they, the physical confrontation that, that in combination is putting it very mildly of their fight there.

You know, I mean, he, they were going down the highway, like probably I'm guessing Saudi miles an hour in theory. Um, and winter soldier just like rips the guy out of the car

And I mean, she's holding her own, like I will never not love that scene where she jumps off the highway, uses the grappling hook to swing over running full speed that notices the, the shadow of the winter soldier and the, the action stops. And it's kind of like half a beat of silence. And then you see the shot on the winter soldiers glasses, because Natasha had like, outwitted him in the positioning of herself where she just slowly walks out and shoots upwards. Like it is, it is so cool.

Like on top of everything that is happening narratively, it's just really, really cool and

And I think that that was to me really. I dunno why they just didn't touch that. I love that consistency. Yeah. The other thing that I think they did really well with this sequence was it came out of nowhere. You know what I mean? Like in the elevator we talked about it. Like we all knew it was coming, you know, cap was looking for a fight and wanted to beat up on some people in he's like, Hey, who wants to get out? Like, we all knew it was coming.

Um, even with the Nick fury thing, you knew it was. Right. It was just like, you had that tension the way they built it, you know, and, and the police cars surrounding them. This one, it was like, they're driving down the highway. And all of a sudden it was just like all hell broke loose. And, and, and because they did it that way, I think this whole sequence made it even that much more.

Uh, this is going to take us from the moment that Maria Hill breaks out Sam, Steve, and Natasha, uh, through to the end of the movie. So starting with you this time, uh, where would you like to start with enact three?

The final action set piece that we know these movies have in a Disney plus shows for some of them, it felt like, okay, we have to have this because we have to, you know, um, where this didn't feel that way, right? Like, like in any movie, you know, it's coming, but you know, they do it well when it gets there and it feels natural. It doesn't feel like obligatory. And this definitely didn't feel that way. Like it's you still felt the stakes of what's going on. You still felt, man.

How is basically the three of them? Maria Hill, sorry, the four of them. Cause you know, fury was useless at this point. Um, I said that just for the Sandy, uh, Well, you know what I mean? Like, like going up against all of shield. Um, and so you did have this sense of going in of like, okay, I know this is going to happen. I know it's going to be successful. Cause I had, I'm familiar with movies when they did such a good job of, of, of like, how are they going to get out of this?

And that's what you want from these movies. We know

So, you know, there, there's a couple places I want to go to, but I'm going to start here because I do think there is some work on our part with, with Nick fury, at least for me, uh, we did get called out by Nick, Sandy about being a little too harsh on him. Uh, you know, you brought up the idea of, of how much has he really changed if he was still wanting to salvage shield here at the end.

And I think one of the things that I wanted to kind of reset here is you mentioned the line security through might. That was the ideology. I think that Alexander Pierce had, and it is the same ideology that we compared to Nick fury. And I think one of the things that I wanted to set up, uh, back then that I didn't get a chance to until now is. Yes, they are two sides of the same coin. They both share this idea of, I can't trust you with your own safety.

So only I have the power to do this, to do what's right. The thing that I think separates them is whenever you hear Alexander Pierce really talk about it is about what they want to do. It's coming from this place of wanting to have offensive force. Like they will be ready to attack. They will never be from behind. Whereas with Nick fury, it is this feeling of wanting to protect it's misguided it's wrong, but ultimately it is wanting to defend people.

Um, so I think that that's a very important distinguishing factor between them because it gets you to this point where you're right. It is not great that Nick fury was wanting to salvage sealed, but I think it also. Is showing the Baton pass, come to fruition in that it is Steve's decision of no, you gave me this mission. It all goes. And I think that is evidence of. Again, to use this phrase, beacon of hope.

That is Steve Rogers and captain America, the character and the learning process for Nick fury. Um, and I think if it would have been like an immediate switch on Nick Fury's part, I think that would be a little bit more disingenuous because I go back to what I said last week, whenever you're dealing with extremes for so long to justify the ends, the extreme stop being surprising to you.

And it's going to take time, I think for Nick fury to walk back from that path, but the fact that he can recognize the error of it, I think speaks volumes of who he is. And I think, again, it is the strength of captain America, that it is compassion to the person that is what brings them back to the light.

Cause I don't want this sword treatment to be just what we got in one division. Uh, cause that would be problematic, but if it is sword and they take some kind of, and you start to see this trend of some kind of line of like, that's what he's doing was sword a similar thing was shield. I don't think we can say that you've learned your lesson yet. You just traded one agency for another word. Um, yeah, so, so, and that's going to be upon.

I think Sam Jackson, as a, as an actor and caretaker of fury and FYGI and any of those writers to be aware of that, if that makes sense. So, so like, so like clearly in this movie, I think we can say he had to be taught a lesson cause he's like, we're going to salvage it. And not only did he, but even Maria Hill was like, no, this has got to go capture it. Um, and, but I do wonder to what extent I hope they don't, they undo that a little bit with sword, you know?

And, and if they do, I hope it's done because I think it can be done if they do it. Right. You know, but just to automatically like go back to square one, you know, that, that doesn't work.

And I think it is a bit of a by-product of it's been over 10 years, like at a certain point, some things are going to get strained or tested just because I don't think anybody has that level of foresight to write that tightly of a narrative. But it is when you zoom out and see where these characters are. Now, while we talk about this movie, then it is a little dubious that he went from one organization to the next, assuming that that's what he's doing at the end credit scene of far from home.

Uh, because all we saw was him in space with different scrolls. And I think we kind of got the illusion at the end of one division, like Rambo was going to meet with Nick fury. So yeah, I think, I think that's me clumsily trying to hold onto my point, but I think you're right there, there is some jury left to, uh, Nick Fury's defense and I hope they don't, they don't take

Like, we we've seen this and we've seen the direction it's going and you don't, we love these characters and you don't want, you want to see the growth, not a backtrack in retread. Um, if you know, if that makes sense. So. So, yeah, so like I I'm with you on here. Like he, to me, like he learned his lesson, um, you know, in that, in that kind of, that endorsement of what caps gonna do, you know? Um, it's okay.

So, so let me, let me jump back into there because I want to explore this a little bit more, and I think about the hero's journey and the story circle. If fury is playing the role of the mentor, right? Like typically the mentor passes on, I mentioned some kind of talisman, some kind of object to our hero. That's on this journey, the hero goes to the belly of the beast.

It has to return and show that they have learned and incorporated the mentor's lessons, um, and utilize it and bring it back in a weird way because of the way it started with the mistrust. Fury is a mentor, but he's not, you know what I mean? He's definitely the mentor ish person that sends them on this quest. But you have this question, can I trust them or not?

And here though, the lesson learned that he brings back is one that has to, as you said, be taught to Mick himself, the mentor himself, you know, and he says, well, I guess you're calling the shots now cap. Um, so that I do find interesting in that, in that

You know, no one ever dies in the Marvel cinematic universe is the, the revelation. No, the mentor needed to learn as well. And that is what makes it prominent that he's back. And he's like, all right, we're going to continue where we left off. And Steve's like, no, you gave me this. This is what you have learned and what, this is what I've learned and what I am here to teach you now kind of thing. So almost kind of an inversion of the archetype.

Um, you know, and, and so seeing these variations gets me excited and, you know, cause, cause we could, you make those small changes, but it feels small, but they're going to be significant to somebody else. Cause they see it through their own lens. And so I just, and so like none of that has to do with winter soldier, but like use what you said, like that's where it all I guess. And so, yeah. So, okay. So yeah.

But the thing that stuck out to me this time, especially sitting down to take notes is if the. Lesson that Steve Rogers is now broadcasting here at this part of the film is that trust and friendship, it makes it heartbreaking to go back all the way to that moment and realize it is Bucky, who is the one that had instilled it in him, because that is where we get the line I'm with you to the end of the line pal.

And so not only does it work to, to really hurt whenever we're seeing them fight towards the end of the movie, but it, it shows where that ingrained value came from. And the thing that I want to highlight as well before I throw it back to you is again, we talked about it a little bit before we started recording about how Sam doesn't really get a lot until Falcon and the winter soldier, but he makes the most of what it is.

He has this moment after the flashback scene, where Steve is kind of standing out on that dam, I think, and, and Sam comes up to him. Sam is iterating. Bucky's not the kind of person you save. He's the kind of person you put down.

And I think there's many reasons why that is a wonderful here in this movie, but I want to highlight the growth that Sam has from this moment where he honestly believes this to where he ends up in the Falcon and the winter soldier, where he is adamant about putting Carly down is not the answer. Like I think that shows growth on his part that is, uh, worth mentioning here.

It's, it's a bit of an echo where we can see that he learned it is possible to play towards the person and settling it in peaceful conflicts rather than just trying to push her way through, uh, with Steve Rogers in this moment.

You know, like their own relationship and where they go and where they end up. You know, I wonder if, if part of that group therapy was like, you know what I did tell cap one time you are the kind of person you put down. Like, I wonder if that happened. That would be, you know, because that is such a powerful way to put it, you know, such a dehumanizing way to put it in and stuff.

Um, so yeah, like it's at mattress worthy is Sam, like if he didn't, if he didn't know and had to ask like, Hey, who's actually the bad guy. And capsulate like the one shooting at you, like how much does he really know?

And Steve has made the declaration that eight is Alexander Pierce, who is behind all the chaos that has ensued, uh, in the previous days, uh, shuffle and, you know, I, I couldn't get out of this review without taking some time to talk about that captain America speech that he gives, uh, you know, to start with the quote, you know, he says the price of freedom has always been high, but it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not.

And again, I I've said it multiple times, this episode, multiple times last episode, it is the inspiration to do better. And it is almost reminiscent of the dark night. And we've alluded to it many times if that boat experiment and about like each boat has the trigger and it's the trust of each other, not to push it. The thing that I like about this that feels like it goes a little bit further. Because the infiltration of Hydra is a thing that is indistinguishable from each other.

Like nobody knows who's on what side. The thing that I think is wonderful about this speech is that captain America has equipped everybody with the chance to pick up that shield. Because even though they can't tell who is on what side of this, this dilemma, the compass that they have is to do the right thing. And we see that. In so many different cases. So for example, you have the one where rum lo is charging the, the, the guy at the computer and he stands his ground.

And that kicks off that whole shootout that happens there. Uh, you have the, um, the various different guards who are fighting against each other, as they're trying to get to the, uh, the aircraft and trying to stop them. They're like, it's just multiple situations where you don't really have a clearly defined idea of who is the quote unquote bad guy, but the willingness of people to stand for what is right is just echoed through cap speech. And I love it.

And so there was like this silent and then this all of a sudden this crash, you know, and then that's kind of what kicked off the action and the, and that broke that tension. And that was an homage to, uh, William Africans, the Exorcist and the use of, I think it was a telephone ring to break this tension or something like that, but like, they're getting their knowledge of, of, of film and to be able to say like, oh, how do I break tension? Oh, this is how they did it. It was, that was there.

And so I'm going to intentionally do that. Um, that's where, again, not, I want to get sidetracked, but that's where I just really makes me angry when I hear the whole, this is not cinema. Thanks. Because cause I listened to that commentary and think about the thoughtfulness behind it, the understanding of film history, the under the understanding of wanting to tell a story and it's just like, no, there is a craft to it as well. You know what I mean?

That, that they're clearly displaying, you know, as, as filmmakers.

And, and that was something from what I watched and listened to that commentary God, when the DVD first came out years ago, um, that moment of just like, oh man, that is just a clever way of like, you know, as a filmmaker, I get the script, you have cap speech, you get this tension and you build up to this moment. Okay. But what breaks it? Who makes the first move, you know, um, You know, and it was a clever way to do

She is going to dump out everything on the internet so that it is laid bare for everybody to, to have eyes on both the good and bad. And the fact that she's at a point where she can comfortably do that because she knows it's the right thing. And the step towards building a more honest relationship with anyone like abroad, being able to build honest relationships, I think is huge for her development within this movie.

Are you sure? It kind of, you know, this implanting of doubt and it's like, nah, I got this, you know, um, bring it on. So, so yeah, I loved that element of that, that story.

So for him, uh, we worked together briefly for three years and that's just part of the Jesuit society of Jesus formation, where they go to school to one of their schools, the Jesuit school, and worked for three years and then, and then move on. So he was there during that time of age of Ultron coming out and we saw Dr. Strange, uh, I almost said multi-verse madness, but Dr. Strange. When you come out, you know, at the same, at the same time and stuff, and we would have all these conversations.

And one of the things that we kept circling back to with this movie and just media in this John, or in general, is that so often see this redemption of our characters and the, in this banality of this hero's journey and cycle and in violence. And some of the shows that most stick with us, this one return to the Jetta that comes to mind is when they dropped the lightsaber, right, is like, I, I, the, the right thing to do is to not fight.

And in this and this, this thing of, like, I know you don't recognize me in that, that exact moment, but I recognize you. I know who you are. I'm not going to fight you and lays down that, that shield, um, which also ends what you were talking about in my head that, that the shield has its own character. Right.

And in that, that arc of like, you know, of what the shield stands for and what it doesn't and the ability to drop the shield when you should, you know, and actually kind of alluding to John Walker that will get years later. Um, so yeah, so like that moment. You know, and we actually, the Russo brothers did it the same. It's very similar thing. And this whole getting away from her redemptive violence, uh, trope or motif in, in civil war as well. I'll save that thought for when we do civil war.

But, but yeah, I love that. That was his response. And cause, cause we talked about it a lot, you know, when, when we, not that we S we still talk, but like when it was like day to day, you know, working together, talking, and that was just, you know, fabulous moment in this, in this film.

He knows he needs to do with those drives that he's putting in so that it can rewrite the project inside files so that it takes out the ships and not the people. So in that moment, that is the most important thing, because that is how he's going to save the most amount of people. At the same time. He has Bucky who is adamant about stopping Steve. And when the answer in front of Steve is to put them down, as Sam says, he continues to not fall into that trap.

And even after finishing the original mission. That putting down the shield. That is the lesson. I think he was trying to instill to Nick fury in that moment, when they're talking about like, Hey, I looked at those SSR files like you D you guys did some pretty messed up stuff. I mentioned, there comes a point where you have to put the weapon down. And I think the, the moment here is signifying that people can never come before Nick can never come after the mission.

Uh, if that makes sense, like that is what, what Steve has realized. It's like, it is not these institutions that I have to blindly follow it is the trust in each other. And even like you said, even though Bucky doesn't recognize them, Steve does. And so that is the, the, the Gracie's extending to Bucky to help put him back on the path to redemption and outside of this mindlessness that he is unfortunately found himself, uh, uh,

Cause we're not completely there yet chipping away at the programming that he's been given his entire life where you can even flash back to that moment where he meets with Alexander Pierce. And he's talking about like that man, he knew me, he said he recognized me Bucky as appealing to humanity and to friendship and peers, his answer is to just rewrite it. And so the fact that we come back to this moment and Steve is like, no, I I'm going to treat you as a person. It just

I don't want to take away from the change in Bucky, but it is like to show you that captain America effect of the inspiration. It's just, I love it.

There was an idea, a quote, so many, but I love camp and Nat undercover at the mall, quote, unquote specimen. And on a serious note, the price of freedom is high speech. And it makes sense that that would be the one that is TK serious one as much as they are a fan of captain America's. I am I, that that scene is just a perfect captain. America's

We really honed in on that much outside of alluding to it in other cases, but it really is a truly powerful scene that one of the last remaining threads of connectivity that Steve Roger has is, uh, unfortunately not. Present in a way. And that's, it's echoing with the themes that I think he's wrestling.

So yeah, like a hundred percent with you.

So if you want to get in on that and you should definitely make sure to be following us, uh, at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram, but, uh, I think that's gonna do it any final thoughts here

Uh, it all comes back to knowing you appreciate the, you know, indulging us in doing the two-parter it, you know, so, yeah. Um, Yeah.

Um, gosh, TK, you know, well, every once in a while, jump in and number of other people we listen to, and it's just a fabulous community, uh, for all the Marvel stuff. Make sure you click on the roll of sign, click on the emojis. Um, and again, as, as we talk about it as a community share with friends, like, you know, it's, it's wonderful to do we have this outlet to, to listen, but we definitely want to, you know, uh, have that conversation. Cause we truly love this stuff.