Captain America: The Winter Soldier Retrospective Review (Part One) + Moon Knight Reactions!

And just like call in friend Daniel or something to replace me.

It was so cinematic. Like if that, even the poster, like if I didn't know, it was a Disney plus show, it looked like I was watching a trailer for a movie. The poster looked like it was something for a movie. And I think more so than any of the other Disney plus shows. Yeah.

And so as I've been watching more, it's like, I've started to realize like, okay, I see what the commonality of the look is of these shows. Moon night feels like it's breaking past that look in a way that I haven't felt in any of the Disney plus shows and even in some of the movies themselves, like it looked phenomenal. Yeah. Yes. So

Yeah. Yeah. But, but again, you're right. Like it just looked and felt

And I like that what they're doing there as well as. And I want to be careful when I say this, because I do think there needs to be a cautious needle thread of how they handle the mental illness with, with, uh, Oscar Isaac's character. But it feels like a very interesting place to play in if they can do it, right? Yes.

So you know something about midnight. And one of them I sent was you with JV. Um, is like, yeah, listen to this pod, watch this video. And I still, I read it Jamie fancy pants. Uh, I did back then and I still do so, so yeah, JV you're coming back, buddy.

I wasn't aware of it acting kind of like the way spawns did were just kind of came on to him and off. Uh, and even that's kind of a terrible analogy, but anyways, but

Um, it's a very interesting visual look to, to, to inhabit that the only thing I'm not sold on and I'm hoping that this is just something I need to see in more direct emotion. I don't know if I like the glowing eyes. They look a little too piercing and it feels distracting.

So I'm wondering if the effects aren't actually done on the suit. Um, and we're going to see

And again, it's, it's something, you know how sometimes some things are just better in motion. It was too quick of a shot for it to settle. I think so.

It was an unfortunate skiing accident where I think it was a head-on collision. And, uh, at the age of 37, he unfortunately passed away. Yeah. Um, so that's, that's something that we wanted to sure. Mention here. And of course we'll link to the full story in the show now. So, yeah, that's a, that's something we'll definitely be keeping in mind as we get closer to March 30th when the show, uh, airs and we'll get to see the contributions that this actor had towards that show.

But moving on, uh, if you downloaded this episode, he, you know, we're going to be talking about captain America, the winter soldier. Uh, it's been a while since we've done a retrospective review. So just to set the stage, uh, there are no spoilers zones for this particular movie because it is one that has been out for quite a while, but we are going to be breaking it down into a three act structure.

So act one is going to take us from the beginning of the movie all the way to the moment that Steve Rogers is called into shield for questioning by Alexander Pierce. Uh, so Jude starting with you, where would you like to start and act one? Uh, hold on.

You know, this training, not montage, but it almost kind of felt like a montage for as many times as cap lapped, uh, Sam Wilson, you know, and then we get black widow and then, you know, goes right into, you know, kept doing his thing. And so, yeah, so it's, I loved it. I, in, in terms of like how they started it, uh, and I just, I just wanted to highlight that cause, cause that whole, it was like, it's like they, they knew how to ease us into this really action packed

One of the issues that comes to with characters like Steve Rogers, is that you can fall into that pit of being one note. It is a character who has the burden of being right. Uh, and I, and I say that loosely because you know, it is still written by people. So there is the fallibility of that, but at the heart of who captain America is, that's supposed to be the example, I guess, if that may be a better way for me to put it.

So it never really leaves room for showing who this person is on the quieter side. And to have this moment of almost reflecting. Where he is, you know, doing something for himself, he's exercising, he's staying in shape. And he finds that commonality with Sam. It gives us a glimpse into who the person is when all we have seen is the mantle. And it's fantastic. Um, and again, and I want to say this too, here at the top, because this is going to be a reoccurring theme and as cheesy as it sounds.

Friendship is the theme of the movie, like in contrast to the conspiracy and the paranoia of who you can or can't trust the people that you rely on and the people that you call friends, those are the people you turn to in those moments of doubt. And so, even though we don't know it upon first watch what becomes enriching on multiple re watches, which I have done multiple of is you get a, a broad spectrum of how those friendships take place.

You have that budding relationship with Sam and Steve and how they're kind of learning each other's comfortability with teasing each other. And then you have the established relationship with Natasha where she's like, Hey, I'm here to pick up a fossil. And he's like, hilarious. Like, it's just, it's. It is the driving force for the answer that we will eventually get to at the beginning. And the fact that it happens so quickly here at the top is, is brilliant.

And in that sense either. So I think that's really

I think it is important the way you framed it. That is there is this air of like falseness to it. That becomes stronger on the other side.

They worked well as a team together, but the, the idea or the level of, you know, like, like when she asked later, would you trust me now to save your life? Or, you know, or would you trust me to save your life and like, and just thinking about those things in the pulling through, um, and learning how to trust each. Like that is, was really cool to

And that was one of the thing the Russo brothers talked about a lot in that it was so important to get the relationship right with Stephen Sam, because it had to be believable that in the moment of doubt, when everybody is turning on Steve Rogers, it has to be believable that Steve would go to Sam. And that starts here in that beginning. And it is because of that shared military experience where.

You know, w w we've seen so much of the MCU now, but this really feels like one of the first examples we've got of the outside perspective of what it is for the Avengers and the fact that Sam finds commonality rather than like celebrity worship. When Steve, I think, as the gateway, towards their understanding of each other, and it is a level of sincerity that might be one of the first time Steve Rogers has felt since waking up from the ice.

Like it was like, wow, like you're, you're doing what you know, because you're isolated right from this whole frozen in time thing. And so you can't really struggle to relate to people and the, you know, so now it's like, what makes you happy was like, I don't, I don't know, you know, so I'm just going to continue doing this.

Um, and, and like, that was the feeling I got out of that scene this time, which I don't think I've ever had it that way before, you know, so that's something I wish they would have explicitly come back to, um, like even an end game, like I get, okay. You had your moment with peg. Uh, Carter, but I wish I wish somehow they would have worked that line and that back into it. I do

And he's like, yeah, that's why I don't ask her out. I don't, I don't have time. So what happens immediately after this? Did Sam ask Steve about like, what makes you happy? And he says, I don't know. One of the very next things we see him do is that flirtatious scene between him and his neighbor.

Now the reason I don't like this being the full answer to your question of why they don't revisit it is because it's such a very one note way of showing personality outside of the job of just trying to turn it into a relationship. But I think it is on the mind. It just, there wasn't time to fully explore it. Uh, but the thing that I think it reminded me is the line that he has an end game where he says, I finally did what Tony said to do and got a life.

So it's, it's there, but you kind of really have to scrape the surface.

Well, that, that I did what Tony said rather, this, this is a moment between Sam and Rogers.

What to do in this new world, because he doesn't know if who he is aligns with what they are, what they have become the, the shield, the, the government, the military, whatever it is, whatever institution it is that he's trying to be a part of. And Peggy has that advice of that. Sometimes the only thing you can do is start over. And so, you know, I mentioned the neighbor side of it with Sharon of him, trying to have that relationship there.

But I think him also going towards Sam is part of that starting over. He's finally relinquishing the pass that he was trying to cling on to, and the people that he knew, um, and starting something new with Sam as well. Cause even when I say relationship, I mean relationships in a broad term, uh, this is a person who is outside of their time. Who's never had time to really process what happened with world war II into the Avengers into now.

And so, um, being here at Sam, I think speaks volumes about who he is and it stuck out to me so much that if there's any doubt, which there shouldn't be, but if there's any doubt, why Sam Wilson is the next captain America, it is in that scene here where he is leading that meeting with the veterans and he showing that inspiration to do better, which is something that I've.

Talked about loving so much with the captain America character, because it's not just about the going out there and being the strongest or the toughest or whatever it is, compassion towards each other. And I love that Steve gets to look in on this moment because it's not a show on Sam's part. This is just who he is.

Um, in the sense of service and, and stuff, uh, cause, cause they'd have to imagine in that world, And maybe I'm, maybe I'm taking some experiences of Hawkeye and reading it back into this movie. Um, cause I'm imagining like people are gonna recognize captain America, you know? Um, and, and there's probably got to just the way people were recognizing Hawkeye. Um, and so I, I feel like that was probably also refreshing. If that makes sense.

Because so, so often, I mean, he was kind of like, oh, he's cheesy. He's captain America, whatever. That moment, he gets onto the boat and he is like going around and kicking these people to the side and throwing the knife and flipping them off the side. It is a completely different tone than what we saw of Steve Rogers up until this point.

And before we continue that conversation, uh, I do want to say this because this is something that I frequently brought up, uh, during Falcon and the winter soldier, and that I highlighted how uncomfortable the violence made me at times. And I was really trying to figure out what that was. Um, I think I've said it before, but I just want to set that context here for this movie as well.

I really think that level of uncomfortability is a change in me because having come back to this with the intent of taking notes, it is something that I think sticks out to me far more than it did when I originally watched this movie. Uh, so that's something that I think I'm trying to keep in mind as I evaluate these series moving. That's

Right. And so I think when you start talking about the level of violence and things like that, I think we, I think it's okay to forgive that here in this situation, because of, you know, at least especially up to this point, let's say it that way, what we know he was going into, um, a hostage situation you were sent in by shield, you know, you're going to engrave a threat. And so in that sense, like, like that I think is where we can say, okay, the level of violence is forgiving.

Um, but you know this as well. Listening to the director's commentary. And talking about that change in captain America, the Russo brothers mentioned in this scene that they wanted, they wanted him to have, I think, what they called a knockout blow for each person. Like I got to get through them quick. They have to be down, not get back up. They wanted tight handheld personal stuff with his action sequences.

Um, cause they wanted to get that captain America has been training more now, uh, with shield and, and this isn't your. Captain America you're used to, if that makes sense. I think they talked a little bit about that in the sequence on the commentary. And I think they did that really effectively. It

Um, and I, and I think you're right, because the, the language they're using here is showing, okay, captain America, the first Avenger, here's a guy who's never been in a fight before. Who's immediately granted these superhero powers. He is a hero, but there's a little bit of unscripted chaos into the way that he's fighting. It doesn't feel organized.

It just feels improvisational, uh, Avengers, you start to get a little bit more of that strategic leadership role, but here in the winter soldier, you see, he has been under the wing of shield for a while. So not only is it an evolution of the character, it is. World-building in that filling in the gaps of time between movies. Yeah.

So, and so when, when it's like that, then it becomes very different than when you're, when you're talking about violence and the level of violence and, um, and, and what's going on because they're because they do have, like, they went out of their way to have faces and stories, um, and have people as opposed to, oh, you're a guy. Some agent with the masculine. Yeah. I'm going to punch you. No big deal.

Um, you know, speaking broadly about captain America, Steve Rogers, captain America, his journey throughout the entirety of the MCU is really wrestling with who he is and how he fits into the systems that he allegedly stands for. And I think that's best summarized by the farewell letter. He wrote to Tony and civil war and that he puts his faith in people. And I, I, that, that takes him quite a while within the MCU to get to, but you can start to see it here.

This is the next step of where we've been going because in the first Avenger, you know, he was bred to be this perfect soldier and then ultimately was abandoned to be propaganda for the military, uh, Avengers. He has that realization that Shield's been using hydrotech to try and even the playing field. So even, even in, in shield and in the Avengers, he's finding out that he can't fully trust them. And that is just completely obliterated here in winter soldier.

By the time we get to the end of the movie of who he can or can't trust, uh, as far as institutions go. Um, so what I like about the bat rock challenging of like, Hey, I thought you were more than just a shield. Seeing him take off the helmet and putting up the shield on his back. It plays to a little bit of that ego. We talked about whenever we did our first Avenger review about how he almost plays with a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

Um, but I also think it helps with what we were talking about in separating Steve Rogers from the captain America persona. Uh, this is, this feels kind of driven by Steve and less what the mission supposed to be. And I think we have to have that divorce of character in mantle. If we're going to get to the point of the second act where we really dive deep into the character to see where those lines begin and end.

This, this to me is really showing a difference between like, okay, LA sounds weird, but I want to, I want to qualify my statement first, when, when we're talking about, you know, any of these films there is, and I mentioned it a lot, the vocabulary, the shorthand, right? Like, like the, the intention, the reliance of creators, showrunners filmmakers that you are aware of, certain things, you know, like I saw a commercial for the iPhone 13. That was absolutely brilliant.

A guy in the front seat of the car. And he's like, I'm the main character because I'm the one in focus or not. And he's like, and he's like, well, what if this? And Nope, I'm still the main character. And he goes, well, what if I was to kill her? And then I became in focus, like, that's exactly what they would do. Right. Um, and so we had that second hand. Okay. We, Larry cause it's easy and it's helps us very quickly. Oh, that's this are there.

Um, which is also very negative as well because you know, you can go back and watch older stuff and you're like, oh, that's at an age. Well, you know what I mean? Um, now having said that, not that I'm going to say this didn't age. Well, for me, what it showed was the difference between how men are portrayed, you know, and in this hyper-masculinity. Because he was like, you thought you were more than a shield and like you said, he took off the mask and did this.

Whereas when that happened in captain Marvel, Danvers, you know, cause like, Jude law's character knew he couldn't beat Marvel. So was like Denver. So he's going to try to get it to do a, uh, or get Danvers, to do a one-on-one without her powers. And she just shoots him anyways. And it's just like, I have nothing to prove to you. Like, you know, but it's, it's, it is a typical hyper-masculine response of like, oh, challenge accepted, put this away.

And that, and that's what came to mind this time, um, that I'd never thought of before. And, and again, it just, it there's watching this, this time around is kind of showing the evolution of my own thought and how I watched the.

And so you're able to get that, but it was just kinda like later seeing that scene, you know, after the captain Marvel scene, the, and the things, it was just like, that's so. Hyper mil, if you could shop cat. Oh,

But when you really sit down and look at this movie, it is, and I use a lowercase P here, but it is, it is a philosophical debate between captain America, uh, and Nick fury and the way that they view how to adapt into this modern world. Uh, and the, and the meeting that they have at the triskelion I think is, is a great place to emphasize this because you have that argument where Steve walks in to the office and he's like, you can't help yourself from lying.

Um, and, and evolves into that point where Steve has, I think, a very defining, uh, thesis in that statement, soldiers trust each other. That's what makes it an army. To which Nick says the last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye. So we get a very definitive look of these characters who are going to undergo a change by the film's end. And I like that. This is what it's really about is how far can you trade trust for what's right. And with a character like Steve what's right.

Is always the driving force of his character. And with Nick fury, even though he does have the right intentions, it is what level of, of trust is he willing to give up to ensure that the right thing is done? If that makes sense?

Okay. And I'm just curious how many people, how, how many people have their cat people get all the discord? Let me know, because between the two, like I'm not a huge pet person, but I'm definitely trusting the dog more than the cat. And so like I questioned Nick Fury's judgment and that his last person he trusted was a cat.

Okay. Um, no, but I do like that you brought that out because it's interesting to me in that, on the Rogers side, from, from what you were saying, and for what I was gathering is like the, there's a couple of things going on, where for Rogers, he's like the, the importance and the trust is in the relationships in the community. And for fury. You know, and you have the whole line and it's a nice line about the eye and stuff for emphasis.

Um, but fury really is in a position where he's like that, that he doesn't trust anybody, which means there's a completely breakdown in relationships and in community, you know, and there's still a sense of on his part. Like at this point, he, he agrees with Hydro's agenda, you know? Um, it's like, No, I don't trust you.

So I'm going to put a gun to your head and I can only trust me, you know, um, in, later in the scene, Zola, you know, the whole thing Zola said about what Hydra was founded on was quote Zola. Hydro was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom. Like at this point in the movie, Fury's agenda, like he's on board, you know? Um, and, and so, so it's interesting to me to, to, to see that. And it's like, oh, it's high. All of a sudden, like fury changes.

Oh, it's hydro, so it's bad. But, but otherwise it really kind of aligned with what he was thinking.

And then as time went on, things got a little bit rougher. And so the granddad started carrying a gun and he had that line that I love so much in that. You know, he says granddad loved people, but he didn't trust them very much. And then it goes down to the project insight where he's like, yeah, I know it's a, it's a little bit bigger than a 22. That is such a simple story.

But I think it conveys that level of comfort that we've developed with each other throughout history and simultaneously have lost. And so the thing that I will say about that is I felt a similar place where you are in that it's hard not to have a stain on Nick Fury's character, that he was willing to do this in order to achieve what he thought was right. Because it's sacrificing so much to get there, but you can see the logic.

And so the thing that I wanted to also mention is that if this movie is saying. The winter soldier is the problem that Steve Rogers is facing in terms of being like a mindless arm of an institution than Alexander Pierce is to Nick fury. What the winter soldier is to Steve Rogers. And I do think we get to a point where we can see a little bit of redemption on Nick fury, but man, they bring us to some real low lows

And I'm going to be the one that makes sure that people stay in line, you know, and essentially he's like playing this, this, this judge of, of, you know, good, bad morality, you know, um, and keeping people in line

But the difference is is that there comes a time where you put the weapon down, whereas project insight is continuous and that is the moral failing of

And that was one of the things I really tried to stress to the students that I think captain America gets in that part of the conversation and Nick fury didn't, which is man people get put in unbelievably difficult situations when you're talking about truly in thinking about decisions of war and battle and like in true war. Right. Um, and, and these conflicts with horrific violence that people feel driven to do those things.

And they believe themselves to be making the most moral choice possible. Now we can debate and get into those things. But I mean, but it's kind of like the, Hey, I saw what you did. And it's like, well, yeah, we compromise. Like we're put in a situation where I'm not choosing between a good and an evil I'm choosing between something horrific and something bad, you know?

Um, and whereas, you know, Fury's just like, yeah, I'm that, that preemptive, you know, I'm going to keep everybody in line and you actually have a good choice. It's not like you have to choose between that and something else that's bad. And, and. Trying to make a, you know, the best choice between two bats. That's not furious decision, uh, or that's not the decision in front of URI, but that's, that's the one, you know, he's, he's thinks he's making it

Uh, again, if so much of the thesis of this film is trust and friendship and how far you can go with that. The fact that this chase scene is a microcosm of what the film is trying to tell, I think is fantastic because you watch all of the systems that Nick fury has put in place slowly fail him. So you have that slow build of trust in that.

Okay. You know what happens when the system that you're supposed to trust like the police fails and which hits extra hard, given everything we've seen with the increased documentation of, of police brutality and everything that came to light with the black lives matter movements a few years ago, But it also moves into the section where fury is in the car himself. And he has all these gadgets and gizmos and the, the, the, the ballistic proof windows.

And you've watched those slowly fail as he tries to back himself out of the corner. And even after he ultimately gets away trying to get off the grid and trying to get in contact Maria Hill, that's where we see the winter soldier come in. So what happens when you have nobody around to trust? And so you watch Nick fury go from being the person with the most safeguards, the most compartmentalization to having nothing by the end of it.

And even though he quote unquote succeeds and getting away from this car chase, he has ultimately lost everything. And it's such a nice little section of the movie in an action sequence.

It was cool that this is what they pitched like this scene is what was the pitch and what got them, the job and their ideas. Like we got to match the car, chase and heat. Um, I haven't seen that movie in a while, but I feel like they did it, but for them, there was a fear that, oh, we're going to introduce the big, bad in winter soldier. And he fails because fear he gets away. But what I loved about the way he explained it is fury physically.

Gets out of that situation, but I wouldn't say they failed just that, that the, the position that you said, they put them in where I, who do I trust and I'm so alone and so isolated and they got to me. Right. You know, I don't think that you can look at it and say, oh, our big, bad, how, how bad can he be? You know, how tough can he be? Cause fear, he got away. He, he, he lost a lot in that, you know, you know what I mean?

And, or just like, of course you, you just said all that, but I think, I think that loss, you know, there, I don't, I don't come away from that feeling that, that feeling of like, oh, you know, winter soldier is not that. You know, cause cause of how close they got, how

You have stripped the person who is supposed to be unflappable. And now he is, is as, as they put it on the commentary track playing from the back foot. And that is the, that is the success of the winter soldier here in this moment.

Um, but it did make me wonder, you know, watching the scene now that is something that came to mind. It was like, oh, here's a black man. What's a police officer here and stopping them. And then the police and police cars, they weren't in shield cars, like intentionally box them in and try to get at them. Um, and that definitely made me see the scene differently. Um, And I don't know.

And I'd be honest from the books I've been reading lately and stuff like I've had that, like, this has been very forefront in my mind anyways. Uh, so it could be some of that as well, just from where my Headspace has been, uh, in terms of what I've been doing. But yeah, like that did really jump out to me.

For me, that's a personal failing on me because I have been trying to be more cognizant of it and learn, and it was something I wrestled with bringing up at all, because it feels weird to talk about something so serious when something so trivial as a Marvel movie, As precious as this movie has become.

And the subject matter that hit is taken on, I think it w it was definitely worth mentioning not only for my own continued education and hopefully pushing that forward, but just showing that this is, I think it is intentional in, on the mind of the movie. Um, and it's something that I know as a personal failings that should have stuck out to me way before everything that happened. Uh, so it, it, it felt important to, to bring it up here.

It's not going to help us, you know? Um, who knows, maybe that's what cap and Natasha used to get people off the raft prison thing. And there's a trope I would like to have go away. And it happened in this movie, Nick, Fury's on the phone with Maria Hill and she's like, Hey, give me four hours. And he's like, you have three. And I'm like, huh? I get you're expressing urgency, but come on, like Maria, Hill's a professional. She knows what she's doing. She needs four hours, right?

Like, like I don't, you know, I don't know what the extra hour early is going to get you. I just it's like stop, you know, it's

And you have that whole interaction where Nick fury eventually reveals that he had Steve's apartment bugged. And Steve Rogers is unfortunately the only person that Nick fury can trust at this point, because all of his fail safes have failed. Um, and there's a moment where after the they're speaking code, Nick fury says like, oh, the only people who know are just me and my friends and Nick and Steve goes, is that what we are. Nick fury has that response. That is it's up to you.

And the thing that speaks volumes to me with that interaction is, you know, so much of what I've learned of, of trust. Cause I'll go out on that limb and just speak broadly here. I have trust issues like that is something that I've struggled with and, and trying to do better.

And one of the things that I have learned is that trust isn't the complete confidence in the infallibility of someone and the way that you put your trust in them, but the ability to create those boundaries and repair them upon breach, if that does happen. Um, and so having Nick fury say that's up to you, I think is beautiful because. So much of what Steve Rogers thought he can trust in that moment is being tested here. And we know Nick Fury's trust has been long gone.

So it is this almost dramatic irony that the person who cannot trust is turning to the person that is the only trustworthy person. And the lesson that he's instilling in him is don't trust anyone. So you have this Baton pass of the journey that Nick fury couldn't overcome given to Steve Rogers. And we are now having to wrestle with Steve Rogers, questioning who it is that he can trust. And to go just a little bit further on, this is again, I set it up in that.

So often characters like Steve Rogers are written to be quote unquote, you know, the right thing to do. The interesting thing you can do with these characters outside of showing the ways that people around them change is showing that that redefining of who it is they are. And I, and I've, I've tried to set that up. And the speaking of the delineation between Steve Rogers and captain America, but this is the moment that those personalities have split and our journey begins here.

And the thing I like is in this moment, when you see Steve pick up the shield, it is the red, white, and blue shield. And it is not that stealth one that I think is so symbolic of who he was with shield, but this is a character who has now picked up the quest to figure out who he is and what it is that trust means.

I'm here to protect you on whose orders and his and its fury. So it's like you have this conversation, you know, are we friends? You know, the response that's up to you. It's like, it's your choice? Like, you know, cause it is that thing of like, when you trust somebody, it is your choice to trust them, right? Like, like it's your trust you're placing over.

And the first thing that happens is, oh, I've been, I've been being spied on by the person needing me to trust them, but also telling me not to trust anyone. Like, like it's, it's such a, a clever, I think wrinkle. Um, then I think maybe it gets overlooked a little bit, you know? And because we just, maybe as an audience, just assume, um, we know who Nick fury is, you know? Um, and, and so it's like, ah, obviously you can trust a mistake theory.

Um, but if you, like you said, if you put yourself in Roger's spot, uh, and, and thinking about in those terms, It tracks Rogers. Isn't quite sure if he can trust them. Um, and, and that was also part of the whole opening sequence and setting that up, uh, the busting in of, I mean, if you did that same thing, right. Without Asian 13 busting in, I'm gonna say Rogers is the one that makes the call to EMT and then chases.

Um, and I think it's a completely different dynamic and that's, and it's such a small moment.

But when he chases down the winter soldier and he throws that shield and the winter soldier turns around and catches it outside of just being a cool way to establish this character, it is a narrative imbued action sequence that says, I know this is who you are trying to be, but you are not ready for this. And so even though the shield is the first thing, he picks up the fact that it gets tossed back to him, it's like, come back to me when you're ready kind of thing.

Um, but beyond that he hasn't, you know, I mean, yeah. Okay. There's a story. Like it wasn't a one-on-one that was more numbers. If that makes sense, where it was like, oh, this is an equal. Um, so in that it's different to

You know what I was talking about, the irony of Nick fury passing this Baton to them of trust. And then the next scene we get is in the hospital scene where even Natasha is questioning, can I trust Steve Rogers? So not only have they narratively taking down the infallible structure of Steve Rogers within the audience's perception, sort of, but also within himself of like he's having to trust, like if he can trust Natasha. And I feel like I've said trust a lot, so I'm going to stop and think.

So starting with me this time, I think the obvious place to start here is that meeting with Alexander Pierce. You know, we talked about it a bit in the first act of. Uh, movie that Alexander Pierce really is the embodiment of the things that Nick fury was wrestling with. Um, and I think what they do that is, is commonplace.

Now, I think with praise that we give Marvel and their villains, but at the time, I think was a little, uh, it was more special because it felt like it wasn't as commonplace, but you really get to see the ideology of Alexander Pierce and see that even though he's wrong, this is something that he believes full-heartedly and it is even something. That he doesn't see as wrong.

He truly believes that he is bringing order, but that speech he gives about like, you know, Nick fury is my friend and said, think that people that murdered him could be happy today. And because it just makes me sick. And then going on to talk about like, you know, people will call you dirty because you're willing to put your hands in the mud and do what's right.

Like all this is, is talking the talk like he's showing that he wants to be the good person, but the slow uncovering of the reality of the intent, I think is what makes him such a compelling antagonist here.

I do wonder what made him join Hydra? You know, like, like what was that shift that said, yes, this is, you know, I'm, I'm all in here because clearly for me, if Pearson fury are very similar ideology wise, but fear is not Hydra and Pierce is so, like, there was something that, that triggered that conversion, so to speak or over this edge to, to go full on Hydra and as close friends, as I said, they were, you didn't bring fury along.

So like he knew something about, about fury and that would be something really cool. For me to see maybe to explore, I don't, I don't know the best way to put it. Not that I'm asking, let's go back and have a series on peers. Um, you know, I'm not, not saying that, but it, but it is for as much information as we get, um, especially you're right up to this point in the MCU, like it was a really well-developed villain, you know, I'm curious, like what pushes that person?

Like what, what was the thought process there, or, or even like what was in the mind of the writers and the Russo brothers, you know? And, um, when they thought, oh, this is the way this person would get.

And so I don't think it's something that happens overnight, but if you keep operating under this belief that I have to go to these extremes to justify the ends eventually. You stopped being shocked by what the extremes are. And I think that's like, it's just, it's a S uh, a point of no return that I B Debbie comes indistinguishable for the, yeah.

You know, he's really elevating himself above the rest of humanity. Right. And putting himself in that position of like, I am judged. Uh, and so that's a really interesting place. The like how do you get there as a person to say, like, I am the one who decides that. Um, but man, when you, when you think about the extremist view, there's tons of examples that we can think of that are extremist views. Um, especially if he's thinking in terms of military action, like. Like, that's what he does.

Right. Um, in, in this, in this world of security, through mite and you know, what are the, when you're talking, one of the first things that came to mind in terms of extremist was, um, you know, I talked a lot about with one of my classes, uh, general Curtis LeMay from world war two. And, and it has involvement in his shaping of the U S air force and, and those types of things. And he was almost pretty like maybe a notch, less extreme than the UK guy.

I can't remember his first name, but it's his, his, um, nickname was bomber Harris. And, you know, for him it was total war. Like there was no such thing as a non-combatant, you know, like you in some way as a civilian. Supported the war effort. So therefore I could bomb you.

And there were, you know, and, and, and you have, what was it, the firebombings of, uh, Dresden, um, which was just horrific and LeMay later with the fire bombings of Tokyo, um, before we even dropped the nuclear bombs, which were just horrific. And when it came from that extremist view of total war, nobody's a non-combatant and this is what gets results and we need results. Um, and so it's like, we've.

So I just find that, that interesting is it's it's there in this movie, but like, man, we we've seen it so many times as well throughout human history.

They were taken from both from movies, but also this idea that if, okay, we're going to do a political thriller, how can we instill some of those real world examples into this fictitious world? Um, so I'm, I'm glad you've found a way to highlight that, uh, that echoes here, what they are focusing

Um, you know, and, and people were making that connection, but we're like what the extremism, I mean, we find that all over the place.

And I'll set the stage by saying like, obviously you can tell something's up with Alexander Pierce, but I can't help within the same act. But think to that scene of what that revelation is, whenever the winter soldier is in his. And the scene goes from like, oh, is he in trouble to, oh, he's familiar enough to do the joke about the milk too, watching him cold blood murder somebody.

And I just remember thinking like, okay, I know this is not a good character, but the extent to which he goes, I remember just being a shock to me. And I I'm wondering if that's just exclusive to me letting the movie be or what another perception of all of this character was. I'm

Um, and so, so in, in that way, that, that was kind of a nice, um, thing, thing to see, and maybe, maybe a tip off, but no, I, I wasn't fully sure until he, until he shot Renata. Yeah.

Uh, but I do want to take some time here to step back and set up a character we really haven't spoken about at all yet. And that is rum lo uh, rum low is a fascinating character to me because at the beginning of the movie, you see that there is this working friendship between Steve and rum. Lo you have that playful banter at the beginning where rum lo has shot the, uh, pirate. And Steve is like, Hey, thanks. And he's like, yeah, you've seen pretty helpless without me.

The way that we've watched the falling out between these two, uh, and, and especially leading into the meeting with Pierce in the aggressiveness, in which he's like, Hey, they, they want you in for questioning. And he's like, okay. Yeah. He was like, they want you now. And Steve's like, all right, you, the slow grow of tension between them too is such a fantastic buildup to this moment where he ultimately betrays him here in the elevator.

Um, and I got one joke before I throw it to you, you know, it's, I wonder how much Hydra would still be secret if they were so much better at being subtle, because all those nervous men getting into that elevator was so funny to me and different hindsights now that we know how that plays out

Okay. Like. Like, I'm just imagining like, like one of those other guys who was like, yeah, we need you to like trap captain America in an elevator. And it's like, what do you want me to get in the elevator with cap? Like, I can't, I can't get away. Oh, don't worry. Don't worry. We're gonna, we're going to send a bunch of other guys with you cause I, okay. Thanks.

And then, uh, Steve's like, no, let's, let's wait to hear back from forensics burgers. He's like, oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense.

Um, cause cause you had the, so many people in there, like if he just went through him and it was no big deal, but they have to fight off the magnets to have the struggle, to be 1.1 handed like it, they did such a good job of making it believable.

Even though Steve Rogers has been pushed to this perspective, in that he doesn't know who he can trust anymore. Uh, he doesn't know what he stands for, but in that elevator scene, as he's clearly deduced that these people are here to, to capture him, he politely asks them, does anybody want to get off that's grace that he's extending before, like that chance to do the right thing before it breaks loose is such a pivotal captain America moment. And

And, you know, um, in fact, And changed your mind captain, the aggressor, if he wouldn't have asked that they would just, and they felt scared because like, they're all dude, we're in the elevator, we're going down to forensics and then cap all of a sudden, out of nowhere, it was like, Hey, anybody want to get off? And you're like, oh my gosh, he's going to go off on us. So let's get them first. I think cap was the bad guy in the scene.

But to me, I think whenever captain America stories are working at their highest potential, it is when they are treating the shield as its own character. And so I talked about that in the apartment scene where, you know, that's him picking it up, Bucky stops it and throws it back to him. You're not ready for this. I like that. The shield doesn't get to get used here that much. It is kind of quickly taken away from him.

He takes the, the elevator out and then that he has that cool moment where he kicks it back up to his arm and the escape continues and he uses it.

Like I have reclaimed this from the capital S shield and I'm going to use it for what it is that I think is the moral thing to do. Um, and so I don't know. It just, it felt like a moving story piece there within the actual story that they're telling you.

Oh, Uh, the first Avengers, film him using the shield other than just like throwing it, you know, and here they got really creative. Like you said that with not just using the apartment, but the ways in which he was able to utilize the shield. Um, and this is the first place where we see it, and that was an intentional choice and something that the writers and directors wanted to do. And again, the it's a whole suspension of disbelief, but, um, that, that they're asking right.

It wasn't difficult to do because they did so well.

It's asking you to, to look away a bit, but because we are centered in a superhero world, this fantastical nature of 10 guys going against one, or, uh, Nick fury going through this car chase and, and doing all these destructions, like it is so over the top, but in comparison to some of the other things we've seen the MCU do, it does feel more grounded. And so it's, it's, it's an interesting balance that they're finding and doing some over the top stuff, but in a way that feels, uh, Human.

Uh, meaning you still have that kind of that handheld close action, but then here, then all of a sudden it changes and you kind of get that standard wide shot. You can see everything and watch them fight. Um, and, and I don't know why they made that, that intentional change of choice. I haven't listened to that commentary yet actually. Uh, but I'm sure it's just as good. Um, no, I actually have listened to that one. It's just been years.

Um, cause I was like, first thing I did when I got the DVD, but I think that's part of what makes it. That feel real and believable cause we're up close.

Um, and, and then we've had some pretty good examples of it here within this movie that we've covered so far, but really, and that elevator scene feels like just the next level of where we started on that boat scene. So the next place we go to after Steve has escaped from shield and has now been deemed a fugitive on the run, uh, is he goes to retrieve the USB that Nick fury entrusted to him that he hid in the hospital. And lo and behold, Natasha is the one who got to it before him.

What did you think of this scene of them together as they're poking at who it is they can trust

And so, yeah, so like th this scene is, um, you know, like that, those are the things that kind of mind, and honestly, again, hindsight or watching it now that disappointment is. You know, she describes how winter soldier shot her. And that was something I was hoping to see, like in a flashback in the black widow movie. And so, and so now seeing it here, that that honestly was the first thing that came to mind was like, oh,

And the thing that I think stood out to me that I found just such a fun irony, I guess, in the narrative, is that the thing that gets Steve to trust Natasha is Natasha admitting that she only pretends to know everything. And the thing that's, that's interesting to me about that is part of who she is part of her skillset is that deception. And so the fact that in that moment of vulnerability, Steve is able to trust her in, in her revealing. She doesn't really know, you know, 10 steps ahead.

I thought that was just a. Beautiful exchange between them that speaks to the chemistry that the actors had. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what, uh, we have decided that this is going to be the first part of what is now a two-part discussion of the winter soldier. Definitely because of it being one of my favorite movies, I've had a lot to say, Jude, I know you've had a lot to say,

Um, the experience of doing a watch for podcast prep, I think reinvigorated watching in a way that I haven't felt before. And I'll be honest because I've talked about it. I've cried easy when it comes to movies, it doesn't even have to be like a sad moment. Like if a movie is just really, really good, I start crying. Don't know why just do it

Yeah. You can't track us like that. And like, Hey, I'm sitting in my living room doing this and tagging where I'm at and like freely giving away the information, uh, that, all this personal stuff. And so there's an irony to me there. Um, and so thinking about those things, um, as what is trying to accomplish and what, what captain America's argument against hydrogens, especially in that, in kind of scene speech he gives. Yeah, that's good. I like that a lot. You anything to zone in on?

Nah, just, just

And there are so many instances in which that happens. But the thing that I want to keep in mind is how this is just as much black widow story as it is captain Americas, and the way that plays out within the second half of the film, I think is really important to look in on. So, uh, there's a lot of characters where this takes place, but Natasha and Steve in particular are two ends of a spectrum of a modern world that I think is that stands out to me the more and more that I watch

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