¶ Andy Berry's Journey in Ultra-Running
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Maximum Mileage Running podcast , where real runners share their real stories . And today I've got a real runner who is quickly becoming ultra-running royalty . We're going to be diving deep into Andy Berry's recent win at the Lakeland 100 , which is one of the UK's toughest , most grueling ultra-marathons out there .
He's going to tell us more about it . So , andy , welcome to the podcast , delighted to have you on . Thank you for joining me .
You're welcome . I mean I'm blushing a bit now . That was some intro .
Well you are . I mean , you are quickly becoming ultra-running royalty . It's really interesting to just read into your bio and your history and what you've done over the last few years , because you were out there winning a few ultra-marathons before 2021 , and then you pretty much took a couple of years off the scene , didn't you ? To concentrate on the Lakeland .
Yeah Well , post-covid , I just love running in the hills , in the fells . That's where I feel most at home and when I feel happy , that's when I run my best and so , yeah , so I stepped away from racing , organised big trail races . I was still racing fell races in the Lake District .
So you know , for people who don't know , they're really small , pay a fiver , go run up a hill and back and get a cup of tea at the end and shake everybody's hand if it finishes around you and you know that's fell racing for you .
Here is it gets .
Yeah , exactly , and so and I love that side of us I'm never going to be brilliant at fell short fell races . I'm just not built that way . I'm more built like a turbo diesel than a Ferrari is like how I like to say it . So yeah . So I was doing a lot of that and concentrating on some of the big , big rounds in the UK fell running rounds .
So I 'd already done the Bob Graham in 2016 , which is in the Lake District . So in May last year what's that 2022 ? I did the Paddy Buckley in North Wales and then in September I did the Ramsey Round up in Scotland , all just building towards the dream goal of hoping to get somewhere close to the level required to challenge the Lake District 24 hour record .
And in May this year so that's there was a two year plan , from 2021 , to see how close I could get .
And I think it's awesome that you approached the man who held the record before you to coach you for it .
Yeah , kim's great . He's just such a nice guy and you know I've said many times the you know the story of how it came to be .
But ultimately , if you want to push your own limits , then who better to guide you to that goal than the person who's not only got the knowledge the scientific side of it all nailed down , but also the lived experience alongside it . That that was really key for me , and he was he's been nothing but amazing . Can't sing , as praise is highly enough .
Yeah , for those listening , that's Kim Collison who is . It was Andy's coach . You know previous record holder and you're absolutely right . Why not ? You know , I the person who coaches me . I approached her because she was the record holder of a race I wanted to do and you know exactly . Exactly .
For that reason , why not approach the person who's got that experience ? So let's talk a little bit more recent , because you have just won the Lakeland 100 . So talk us a little bit about your preparation for that race with Kim . How's he got on you ready for that and what have been some of the key things that you've done .
So because it was only , it was nine weeks between 24 hour record and Lakeland 100 . So we knew in that time period I'm not going to find any , any level of improvement . Really , the only thing you're hoping for in that time is to get really good recovery out the back of your first event .
And you know you're looking at your sleep , what you're eating , getting the legs moving but responding to any pains , aches , tightness , and making sure that you're doing the rep was stretching and mobilization . So there's about two weeks of that .
And then we had a short block of , say , I think it was about four or five weeks where we we did a little bit of everything again . So since , like September to May , we would do like eight week blocks and it would be eight weeks , you know working short reps , working medium reps , longer reps doing . You know , trying the .
That is the back and model from from Norway , I think it's called , where you double up your threshold sessions but you drop the intensity down . So instead of running at eight you run at seven , but you do one in the morning and one at night . You know , just try in different stuff .
So between the two events you're going to be doing a little bit of a , a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of speed . So between the two events we just did little bit of that .
We do one week of each thing just to inject a little bit of speed back into the legs , inject a little bit of intensity into the sessions , a little bit of faster running , and all of those little bits we put back together . And then we did another .
I was going to say six , seven , yeah , and we did like a week or two of really specific for Lakeland training . So there you're looking at a lot of running , because Lakeland's got quite a lot of running in it , and looking at those . Okay , what's the biggest hills on Lakeland ? How long are they going to take ?
Let's just practice those hills and get , get yourself ready for those . And then , obviously , a two week taper back down because you want to be rested again . There's no point in going in tired and and then just see , see what you had , basically same as everybody else , standing on the start line .
You had , you have your goals and you hope your day goes as well as it can , and see what happens . And luckily for me , I had a great day and but I don't see it any different to somebody who's chasing the cutoffs and nailed it got in in 40 hours . They nailed their day . I nailed my day .
It's exactly the same level of achievement in my eyes Absolutely .
And I was looking at your Instagram earlier and there was something I picked out from that , and I mentioned before that you know you're becoming a name , that's , you know , getting up there with ultra running royalty , and but I still love that people will comment on your , on your Instagram posts , and and you'll reply back to them and say things like you know ,
yes , I won , but you also did the race and you finished it and that's a fucking amazing achievement too . So , you know , don't don't put me too much on the pedestal when you've done the same race as me and I love that .
I think that's amazing . No , we're all just human beings . Nobody needs to be put on a pedestal . I love running and I see it exactly the same as anybody else who loves running . We're all in the same race . We're all challenged with the same things . Just , I run a little bit faster than than some of the some of the fields . It's as simple as that really .
But yeah , I think in many ways I see it as I get the easy end . Really . You know , I was lying in bed on the Saturday night listening to the rain absolutely hammering the windows and I was just like they're still out there . You know those guys having a second night out there are still out there grinding getting the job done .
And I was just like you know , I'm the lucky one really . I'm so lucky to be done and in bed .
You're absolutely right . I you know I'm not at the level you're at , but you know I've won some ultimatums before I've . You know I finished high up the field and it is it . You know , for people listening .
You know us people that might be a little bit quicker , that you know might win a race or , you know , finish a lot earlier , we don't go home and revel in our glory . We actually often lie there at night going Jesus there's still people out .
I went back down to Ambleside on the Saturday night and cheered a lot of people through . I went and I went and picked up a couple of beers from the Corp and I sat there just before the checkpoint in Ambleside about half past nine at night and cheered everybody through because I was just like you know , I did deserve it really yeah very cool .
Well , as your career continues , andy , I hope you continue to be that way , Because there are some people out there that you do . You know . You say , you know congratulations , and a couple of years ago you said congratulations to them when they won , you know their sort of their first big races .
And now they're out there winning massive races and their big names in the sport and they don't they just blank you . So keep that going , andy . Keep that going . Yeah , well , be the people's champion .
The Rocky Balboa Revolver .
¶ Recovery, Training, and Mental Preparation
Exactly you , you touched on a point , so I've put on Instagram , you know , for people to ask me some questions to ask you today , and I I've got a few , and one of them you touched on just now , which which is around your recovery , and it was something I wanted to ask you as well , because nine weeks between doing the Lakeland 24 hour record , which for
everybody listening means that you it was 78 peaks- 78 peaks , which it was 94 miles , with the best part of the 13,000 meters of climbing but not on trail .
A lot of it is just across the mountain . So that was 23 hours 23 minutes to take that .
Yeah , why didn't you go for the 79th ? Just out of interest ?
So we had a time cut off . I needed to be there by quarter seven , because if you're 24 hours and one minute , you don't , you don't get anything . So we had a time cut off . I didn't get there until quarter past seven .
I was around about two minutes down on Kim's time at that at that point and there was no real indication at that moment that I was about to come back to life , and so we would just decided at that point to go for the time , because that's what made absolute sense as it turned out .
Yes , I would have had enough time , but there was no way of knowing that , absolutely no way of knowing it .
It was the right decision . I've definitely .
I feel like there's unfinished business , business maybe to go back and try again .
Would you go back and have another crack ?
Absolutely Like . I started thinking about what I would do differently . The Monday I got back home and started looking at what I did and looked at how we can improve it . But you know we'll see how it goes . It's ever evolving , the plan .
Yes , well , I'll ask you about that in a bit . So anyway , my question was going to be around some of the questions people have asked me . We're around here . What did you do to recover to get ready from ?
Because that is nine weeks basically between 200 mile mountain altars and that that can be a time period that some people need to just recover it to start training again , let alone getting ready to run another race I've done .
Your focus is I've got a huge base now . So it's two years of , you know , religious strength and conditioning work and on top of that , solid training . You know , I think my average is around .
It's not huge really for , but I average around about 100k a week , but that's including , you know , tapers and ups and downs , but across the board about 100k a week and I've done that for two years . So I've got a huge base of fitness . This means that as long as I don't get injured , my recovery is normally fairly good .
Also , my fulmin for the 24 hour record went perfectly . I nailed 90 grams of carbon hour . For the full thing , I had zero stomach issues , and so that has that obviously had a huge effect on how well I recovered , coming out of it and just being really relaxed about it all .
I think that how you approach things mentally does play a huge part on how your body reacts . I don't see the brain and the body as two different things . They're very much intertwined and if you tell yourself that you need a huge amount of recovery , your body's going to take that opportunity .
You also need to listen to your body , but as long as you've got a good awareness but I don't mean this just after a race , like every day in your training , every day on your rest day , listening to your body , seeing what it tells you when you're running , and you're feeling the different parts of you . You know I've got a feeling the amount of left shin .
Well , what is that ? You know ? it's taking mental note of it , and that allows me to know what is normal pain and what is abnormal pain , so that after something like a big event I can go okay .
I know , roughly by the Monday or the Tuesday of an injured say the event was on the Saturday , I don't so then I can just go out on the bike and spin the legs out and I know if it's just muscle damage , muscle damage is fine , it's just going to heal in a week or two .
But I also know if my ankles are feeling weak , or if so , then I need to not run for an extra week or so , because I understand that's what it feels like . I understand the type of certain tightness in a certain part of my knee . I know exactly where that tightness is coming from . It's at a point in the top of my glute , in my hip .
So it's just understanding your body to a point that you can roll with it really .
And really thinking about recovery as part of your training , right ? I mean , I talk to my athletes about that all the time . Recovery is not something separate to your training , it's part of it .
It's a third of the equation . Stress plus rest equals growth .
The rest is as important as the stress because without it I just read I was just reading Twitter earlier Steve Magnus has put on anybody who's looking for a scientific nugget of gold at the cutting edge of science , who doesn't sleep seven to nine hours a night , is missing out on the simplest thing that they do . Yeah .
And it's interesting because that's exactly the kind of stuff I talk to my athletes about . It's the kind of stuff that I constantly spamming Instagram . About is recovery isn't massage guns and cryo chambers and these weird leg things that pump up to squeeze your legs .
It's getting enough sleep , it's eating right , and that means not just fueling , not just eating after you've done the race or the run or the session , but how you're fueling the race , how you're fueling the session . That's when recovery starts during the race , the ball race .
My big training days . I need 4,000 calories a day . It's a lot of calories , but if I don't do that , then there's no point doing the training , exactly Because your body hasn't got anything to work with . And it sounds really simple when you say I'll add in . I don't know if you're the same when you talk to your athletes .
You say it and they're like oh yeah , that , actually that totally makes sense , but I don't , you know . It's like saying to a kid build me something out of Lego , and not giving him half the blocks .
Yeah , I mean , I use the car analogy all the time , in fact . So everybody listening me and Andy both ambassadors for talk , nutrition and talk have got this brilliant video of two fuel gauges and that just explains fueling brilliantly . To me that's like a three minute video of how we are fueling our runs .
And if you're not giving your body enough and that's just during the run , think about all the other things that we're doing as well our training . If you're not giving the car and a fuel , how's it going to get from A to B ? Yeah , it's going to be getting halfway to B and trying to run on fumes and our bodies are exactly the same .
Yeah , and I think that the other huge one for me this year in particular , from Christmas onwards , I finally took the blinkers off when it comes to alcohol . I didn't want it to be true , but the truth is that if somebody sold the benefits of not drinking in a bottle , it would be a multi-billion dollar industry .
And that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a beer still , but for me what that means is when do I have that beer ? Yeah , you know , I don't have it after a hard workout because it negates all of your hard workouts . You might as well have not done the hard workout if you go and then have two or three pints afterwards .
Yeah .
Because it just interrupts your body's processes , so much so , you know , I cut right back and I target when I have it , and that is made an astronomical difference . I genuinely believe it has .
Yeah , now , 100% . Another thing that you just mentioned , and it was a question that came in from , in fact , it was from one of my athletes around the mental side of things . So her question , rachel . She asked do you do any mental training and any tips when needing to dig in deep ?
I'm a huge believer and I've already said that the brain and the body together are your biggest friends . You can get the two singing off the same hymn sheet . Yeah , absolutely Laughin' . So for me . For me , I like it as my mirror principle it's . You know I'm working on it .
It's a work in progress , okay , but if I can look in the mirror before a race and go , I did everything I could with the time that I had , with the finances that I had , with the commitments that I had to have in the rest of my life , I've had everything I had to be ready for that race .
Then I can all head up high with , whatever the outcome is , no fear of failure at all , because my partner's still going to love me , my son's still going to love me , I'm still going to have a roof over my head , I'm still going to be able to eat next week . You know , nothing's really gone wrong if you fail , like in a running race .
It really hasn't , no , and that's a lovely , lovely way to think of it , because I think we've all been there .
¶ Pushing Limits in Ultramarathon Running
In fact , I think I saw on your Instagram that you changed your mindset around the way you raced a few years ago . Right , and I'm exactly the same . I used to get so head up with you know . I'm going to go and try and win this race .
I want to break the course record , I'm going to do this and that , and then those times where it didn't come off , I would beat myself up so much , but then it's quite easy then to sort of reflect back on those moments and go did it really matter ? Did my wife love me less ? Did she just hate me ? Yeah , I did .
They just want you to be happy , that's all they really want .
And so , coming back from a race , even when things don't go well for me I know they go quite well at the minute , but when they don't go well , just come back and go well . You know , I gave it my best shot . I'll learn my lessons and I'll get back to work as soon as I've recovered . And they're just like yeah , do it . You know like great , so yeah .
So then , and then , after your race , I think you can look in the mirror again and go , no matter how it went , whether you smashed your goals or whether you had a terrible , terrible day , as long as you look in the mirror and go .
I did my best , I didn't give up until somebody told me that I needed to give up and my goals were out of sight , and I just chose to save my powder as long as you could be honest with yourself , because the only person that matters when it comes to your running is you Really , as long as you've got buy-in from the family in the first place but the only
person that truly matters , too , is you . So if you want a . DNF and you really want a DNF , dnf , save yourself . There's no shame in that , as long as you're happy with it it doesn't matter ?
Yeah , 100% . In fact , I've got an episode already teed up , which I'm going to bring out in a couple of weeks , which I talk about DNFing and how actually it is really important to us , but it isn't really important to everybody else and the whole world isn't going to come crashing around you because you DNFed .
In fact I did DNF late on 50 last year .
And there you go and then you've turned around and gone to the 101er , and I think DNFs are just a really good opportunity to learn is the way I see it , particularly in the ultramarathon world . We don't do ultramarathons because they're easy .
We do them because they are really , really challenging and in fact I will come on to a question in a second we're not supposed to finish every single ultramarathon that we ever do .
Well , why do people go longer ? Why do people go harder ? Why do people look for the race that says it's the biggest , baddest , meanest thing on the planet ? It's because they're looking for the thing that they can't do . It's not because they're looking for the thing that they can do , but they want to go into it absolutely as well as they can .
They want to succeed , but they're also looking for the thing that they can't do . I just I can't think of any other explanation why people would search out something that is just harder and harder , and harder and harder .
That's what I'd do it's the biggest records that I can find and then work as hard as I can until I can find one that is too big , and then , if I'm really close to it , I might go away , learn my lessons and then try again If I get a little bit closer . Try again , try again .
Yeah .
And see how far you can take it .
And that brings me on to a good question , and there's a few people sent me this question and it's a question I love to ask , particularly in the ultramarathon world what is your why ? Why do you do this ?
I love moving through the mountains and challenging myself with that , and I took that and I combined it with a . How far can I take it ? I literally don't know . But once you remove the fear of failure , then what's stopping you just aiming as big as you can ? As long as it's reasonably realistic , then . So for me it's .
At the minute it's very much about how far can I go , what can I do ? I don't know .
I don't think any of us truly know what we're capable of , until we go out there and try it and just listening to that little voice in the back of your head , that little voice that says maybe , and maybe you could , and then going all right , well , maybe , if I maybe could , how do I turn that into a ? Can I ? And how do I turn that into a ?
I'm going to , and how do I turn that into a ? I'm going to do it .
And it's that , that journey , and I don't think that I'm a massive believer in in , in letting that little voice , letting that little voice out , give , give them the airtime , because too many people are trapped in the box of what they're expected to do or what they think other people think they should do , or what's the hottest race out there or you know
whatever it is . But just listen to that little voice . That little voice is often right . That's what you want to do and for me , I've got to want to do it . Yeah , if I don't want to do it , I'll find an excuse to not do the training . I'll find an excuse to if I want to do it . There's . There's no stopping us when it comes to training .
I'll I'll do everything I can . You know , I turned my . I turned my ankle really quite badly in February . I did a really stupid thing and went and raised the week after I'd done a huge , a huge mountain day in Scotland and you know quite badly spraying my ankle . So it just flipped .
It went and made sure it wasn't broken but then just got on the bike , got on the treadmill , got clearance from a doctor , that's you know . But you can't reheat it unless you go over on it . All right , well , I can't go over on a treadmill . So I know that's treadmill for a month . Everything , long runs , short runs , easy runs , strides , you name it .
I'd bet it on a treadmill for a month , just because I thought it needed to be done .
You're a stronger minded man than I am , because I just can't do treadmills .
In fact , just on the subject of treadmills , because just you were talking about , I heard about a session that you did as part of your build up to I think it was the 24 hour record and you probably I guess you probably did it at some point or something similar in the build up to Lakeland 100 .
And it was three by 45 minute threshold at 15 degrees on the Just below threshold Just below threshold .
Okay , so the idea is to find the line and sit just below it . Okay , but we didn't start at 45 minutes and we didn't start with three reps Two years ago .
Yeah , that was three lots of 10 minutes . Okay , good , so this is the kind of thing that I wanted
¶ Building Up for Specific Training Sessions
to ask you . This was actually a question that I'd prepared ahead of time , because this is the kind of thing that people will hear . You know , you went on tea and trails .
I regret it . I regret it as soon as I said it , as soon as I came up into it and started getting questions about it , I was like oh no , I bet you have haven't you ?
You've had loads of questions about this treadmill session , because it's the kind of thing that people who don't have a coach , for example , will hear oh so Andy Berry did three by 45 minutes on the treadmill , I'll do that . Or Kylian Jaunet did this super hyper specific session just before he won UTMB or whatever it is , and they'll go , I'll go and do that .
I must need to do that , and that absolutely isn't the case , right , it's not . It's about getting yourself to the right place to be able to do that kind of session , which takes time . But would you agree that , more than anything , it isn't about those super hyper specific one sessions , it's about all of the things that we are doing .
So it's never like . It's a little bit like those . You know the men's health . Do this one exercise 15 times a day . It'll take you three minutes and you'll have a six pack in six weeks . You know , it's exactly the same mentality . No one session is going to suddenly make you win like 100 . No one session is going to enable you to do anything .
It is it's the buildup of months of work . So you know , I think that if you have never done 100 before say you've done 50k and you give yourself a year , you can complete a 100 mile race , like if you're willing to put in the time of a year's worth of work . That's , you know , it's very achievable for you .
One session is only part of that and it has to be quite specific to where you are . And as I say so , we started teaching the body about . So we work with perceived exertion . So I'm very hyper aware of a 5678910 . And then we also did lactate testant to find out the exact heart rate that it tips over .
So when I'm doing those sessions for me , I'm very , very aware of what level I'm working at .
I can say you've got two really good indicators there of knowing your body but also having that heart rate , Just to give you opportunities to go how ? Do I feel ? What is my heart rate telling me ? Right , cool , am I in the right place ?
Yeah , and then learning that , as I say , starting small . So if you wanted to do it for people who don't have coaches , try it . But you're not looking at an all out effort . So when you're doing it , start at 10 minutes maybe , don't even put it on maximum incline , put it at 10% and you're looking for that effort where you can still talk . This is vital .
You can still talk . Yes , it's in very short sentences . I , Kim Kim got me to use . I feel good , I feel great , I feel ready to communicate If you can still say that you're working at the right level . You can't say that anymore You're working too hard and you're going too far over the other edge .
So I feel good , I feel great , I feel ready to communicate .
Yeah .
If you can still say that obviously you're panting in between . Yeah .
But if you can still get that out , you're still working in the right zone . But any more than that , you've gone too hard and you're working the wrong system and you won't get the benefits .
Yeah , let's talk about the race . So Lakeland 100 , a marquee race for many people . I've entered the ballot twice and not got in Because it is a ballot entry for most people . I'm guessing , though , you got an elite invite or did you get through on the ballot ?
Yeah , I got an elite invite . I was lucky enough to be allowed to enter .
Yeah , that's cool . Most ballot , yeah , marquee event , an amazing race , well covered , well revered . So tell us about the race . What was it like for you from the start to finish ?
So the start was fast . I thought that I had an inkling that Jarlith and Ryan would go off hard , so I was very focused on not chasing them . Let them go .
I was going to say , because you didn't leave from the start , right , you didn't go from in on the start .
I had about one mile in the lead after about 45 miles . Other than that , I was sitting in third for a lot of it , fourth , third and then second from Gates Garth , which is 65 miles in , I think . So , yeah , so it was good .
¶ Race Strategy and Checkpoint Efficiency
The weather on the open and night was lovely . For the first half we got a nice sunset and a little bit of a tailwind . It was cool . It was really easy to just stay hydrated , stay on top of everything , and that's all I was thinking about at the start . Again , so RPs for me , exertion levels , making sure that I'm not going above a seven .
It's a 100 mile race . You don't want to be getting anywhere near you as you're running a road or so on . So if I stay at a seven or below and I keep fueling , I'm very confident in my body's ability to keep giving me that level of exertion . That's what I expect of it and it knows it and it knows it can do it .
So for me that meant two gels an hour . I was completely self-reliant . I didn't touch checkpoint food really and just concentrating at my bottles . Bottles refilled I started with . So you've already mentioned talk ambassador . So I've got the flavorless energy powder . I started with two bottles of that .
So that gave me for the first two hours my 90 grams of carbon hour , and then after that we're down to 60 all the way through the halfway through the race . But I was religious with that Easy peasy . Every half an hour , another gel . Here you go . Here's a tip .
So I've got five different flavors and then before the race , elastic banded one of each flavor together so that I could move a pack of five to the front and then I didn't get double flavored . Ah nice , so I got one of each flavor , and then I get a new pack , and then I get one of each flavor and get a new pack . So there you go .
So I've got a pair of shorts where I've got a pocket in the front , two pockets on the side , one on the back , and I'll put one of each of the four flavors that I like in each pocket . So I'll have all my apple crumbles in the right , lemon drizzle in the left , orange banana in the front , and I just rotate around them , around the four pockets .
Here's a question for you Favorite flavor ?
Yeah , it's Robbie Yogurt oh fair enough .
Fair enough , lemon drizzle for me .
Lemon drizzle . Yeah , those new cola ones are absolutely rocket fuel . Yeah .
So I don't really like Coca-Cola outside of racing and I always think well , why would I want to take a Coca-Cola one in there ? When I did UTS at the checkpoint I was absolutely necking Coca-Cola , which I don't normally do , so I need to try the talk flavor .
Anyway , Just save them for that special moment where you're really flagging and then bang one of them and it's like you know , somebody dropped a moth and you're in your back mud tank or something .
I'll be on the phone to Dell later getting my order in .
Yeah . So then it was very much up until the going dark , just sort myself out enjoying that first half . That races my kind of territory . It's a little bit rougher underfoot , yeah , it's , you know , a bit more fell , fell like and going up into Wastales , just beautiful , I love that valley .
And over the top of Wastale I was told at the top of the pass there were some people wild camp and he said , oh , he's only gone past five minutes ago . I was like all right , cool . And I saw I was like , oh , five minutes , you know , that's cool . I thought that I was hoping to keep them within about 10 . So that was grand .
But by the time I hit the bottom of the hill I'd already caught him and move well downhill . That's one of the things I love throw myself down a hill . So even when I'm concerted I can kind of throw myself down a hill , so yeah . So I caught Jarlith at the bottom of the Blacksale and managed to keep a hold of that all the way , all the way really .
For the next part , up to through a few checkpoints , nothing much eventful really happened , a bit of rain and things , but it was fine . And then I caught Ryan Smith , who was the leader , just at the Glencathra . He'd made a little navigational error and he was coming back .
So we ran , ran together for a little bit and then he got a little bit faster on me so I let him go again . My stomach was , you know , that feeling when it just starts to roll a little bit . It feels like your stomach's kind of like just rolling and I know at that point I'm running too fast .
My stomach's about to tell me that you're running too fast , so just ease it back off a little bit and it just settles straight away . So again , just be aware of what your body's telling you before it's a problem . And then through the next session . So there's a six mile section of good track and they call it the old coach road for obvious reasons .
It used to be the old road for the coaching carts and the lead must have changed hands about four times . And then all of a sudden , just Jarlith came , come and pass like a freight train . I was like that is frighteningly fast . I was like it was the most , some of the most beautiful running I've ever seen . It was huge .
He was just lying along and I was saying like , wow , if he's still got that in the tank , I'm in bother . But let him go , that's fine , just keep . Keep running your race , it'll be not a bother .
Do you think he might have done that as a bit of a mental tactic ? Of right , I'm going to make it look like I'm absolutely on fire here .
No , I think he knew that his , his main advantage over the rest of the field was that runnable yeah , those runnable sections and he was going to make them count Fair enough . And he did Like I didn't see him again until until the last mile .
He was gone and then Brian Smith kind of just disappeared and then Rob Forbes came up and ran for a bit and then he disappeared off into the in front of me . But I've re-caught him at a Dale Main , at the main checkpoint , which is about 55 , 60 miles in .
I think and this is another area of my running that I actually have thought about and worked on is checkpoint efficiency . So on the Lakes 24 record , that's when you're running in your car and then you're getting resupply and off you go .
Obviously on races like Lakeland that's running into the checkpoint , getting your bottles filled , getting whatever food you do want and then getting back out . So for a standard checkpoint I was running in with my bottles pre emptied or hadn't finished it .
I would either drink it or empty it and then lids off , just running , getting filled lids back on , straight back out . So I was in and out in probably under a minute on most of those .
Yeah .
They are main way have your drop bag . I'd organized my drop bag quite effectively so I knew exactly what was where inside the drop bag . So the pack was off as I was running in All bottles out , new bottles in , because I had pre-made some more torque bottles ready , so they were already filled in the bags .
They were in the straight in big bag of gels that I had for the next section , that was in the , went in the back of the bag , changed my t-shirt and I was off three or four minutes . And you look back and two lids , who were first and second , took you know , 10 , 15 minutes in those checkpoints .
Yeah , and that's something that's the sort of thing I say to my to my runners , is be really organized with your drop bags and your checkpoints because you know , particularly when you get into the last stages of a race , you know the worst thing you can do at 80 miles , 60 miles , whatever it is and into a race is be stood there thinking right where have I
put this ? What have I done with that ? You know you want to be in right . I know where that is . Put that in , switch that over , fill that up off . I go .
Well , and the other way of looking at it is how hard is it to run one minute a mile faster ? It's quite difficult , yeah , yeah . But if you're five minutes faster than someone in a checkpoint , that's five miles . You've just ran faster , yeah .
That is a good way of putting it .
Yeah , you know it's , it's . It's eating time for no , no deficit . And you know once , my money's on Jarlith next year for like 100 , if he goes back with what he's learned this year , he'll be , he'll be unstoppable next year . I really I hope he does , because it'll be great to watch . I'm not racing it .
Now , you've done that . Now Box ticks on to the , on to the next .
Yeah , and then I'm left for sure , and if I come back and then then I'm in trouble , yeah .
So then then I'm also came , came , went , so I had some , had my partner and some friends and and her family and I'm also cheering us through and , as I say , I do an effort like the 50 last year at Ambleside and I kind of ran in and I had a really like sad face on and kind of like did a kind of you know I'm done kind of hand gesture across my ,
across my face and and she took the micro illigitously , like oh yeah , kind of like , oh , you're going to come back into Ambleside , I don't want to race .
¶ Reflections on a Race Victory
So I was like so so three hours before Ambleside , I was like I made this plan . I was like , right , that's it , revenge time . So I was like practice in the face , practice and everything . So as I ran in and I looked at her , I just dropped my face , did exactly the same gesture .
I was just like shook my head and her face , just everybody's face just dropped and I just ran up chapter in the ribs . I'm like .
I want to mess up with you and run off .
She was just like you , bastard . That's hilarious .
What I mean . I think that's another just a really great way of you know making the experience a fun one . And you know , because you know , even noticed what 50 miles in do you say ?
Oh , no , that's . I think you're about 80 , 85 miles in .
Right , Okay , so 80 , 85 miles in to be able to do that , I think is is . You know , that's just a great , I think . I compare that , I think , to the ellicopturally smile . You know where he makes himself smile when it's hurting . You can go in and have a bit of fun like that .
It typically hurts less when you smile .
It does . This is true , this is true .
Awesome . I also measure our yee-haw through every one thing . I've said to myself before the before the race because it was Western themed I was getting a yee-haw in every single checkpoint . That was my goal to go in and go yee-haw On the way in or the way out , and I nailed it Every single one . Yeah , got a yee-haw , yeah .
So that was another way of just just keeping it fun , keeping it light-hearted .
Yeah .
Keeping it a positive experience even when it's feeling rough .
Yeah , so coming into the finish , what happened in the final few miles , because it was , it was a bit of a ding-dong bell , right .
So from Tilgworth Way to Coniston is three and a half miles over one last hill . It's Mark Lathaway's final kick in the teeth and but that for me is that's home territory . Like climbing a hill , descending a hill . I know the descent . It's a little bit technical at the top . Even after 105 miles that still makes me smile a bit a technical descendant .
And so I thought that 10 minutes was achievable . If he had 10 minutes on me coming into Tilgworth Way , it was game on . I was told he had 18 . So I was like , oh well , that's not achievable . Eight , 18 minutes and three miles and I'm not going to . I'm not going to do that . But I didn't know where third place was .
So I was like right , just keep pushing yourself into your race . You've done this all day . Just keep keep doing what you're doing . So I set off out of Tilgworth Way with a , with a rocket underneath me , and and yeah . So then I found a random runner . He was like oh , that's not Jarlith , but you know he's a runner , so he'll do , I'll chase him .
So I'll chase this random guy up the hill just to keep myself moving . Yeah , yeah .
That bit quicker .
Yeah , exactly , and I mean he just disappeared in the end because obviously he was freshish and I don't know where he'd been for all I know he could have been over 200 miles , you know . But anyway he looked freshish . So that's what I did . And then as I came over the top of the last hill , he was there , jarlith was , was there , he was .
He'd had a , had an issue with his nutrition , I think . He'd completely bonked and was talking to two hikers and getting some getting some water off them and I assumed he would give chase . So I didn't , didn't look back after seeing they was with two hikers , he was going to be safe , no matter , no matter what , even if he'd hurt himself .
Thankfully he hadn't . And so I just absolutely took off down the hill with with no more of my shoulder yes , please , I'm a dog's parking .
Yeah , so we know , look , no more shoulder for the first bit down the technical stuff , because I wanted to make my advantage on that ground count , hit the road where I knew he was so strong and just didn't map up most to empty the tank . I just kept saying to myself this is why you do strides , trying to open my stride length house .
This is why you do strides when that run out after a little bit . I did have a check over my shoulder , didn't see him , didn't trust that he wasn't about to absolutely pull some form and at my level it was back pocket or something . So I was absolutely so .
Then I was saying to myself you want this more than him , you want this more than him , and just grit in my teeth and just absolutely hammering down the road . I think it's 167th kilometer was a 421 . I think that's my I was pretty happy with that coming down that last hill , very nice .
And then so yeah , and then came into Coniston and there was a big old crowd there because I think it had been a bit of a nervous dot watch , but for people nearly went the wrong way . Stuart had to jump in front of me and kind of go it's around the corner that way , so yeah , so nearly went wrong right at the last bit .
And then , yeah , round to the finish and it was , and I kind of crossed the line , didn't really completely understand where the finish line was . And then there was a guy there who was helping sort us out . And I was like , was that Jarlath ?
Like I just needed confirmation off somebody else , like I was 85% sure that I'd just passed him , but I really wanted to be certain in case it was another safety marshal or something or somebody else who might have had a tracker . He's like , yeah , yeah , yeah , you've won . I was like , oh , that's all right , then That'll do .
How many people were around at the finish line when you crossed it ?
Hard to tell really , I don't know . Maybe I haven't actually seen a video that shows the crowd and where the pubs are in , and so maybe a hundred people there and maybe maybe 50 hundred people at the actual finish Finish , but not , not , not loads .
Well , again , congratulations on your win . It's a huge one . That's set you up for bigger things , which are not bigger things , but other big things , because I saw an ounce the other day that you're on the start line for the archer vitrition .
Yeah , they use that for a good bit of PR , don't they ? Yeah ?
we've got the Lakeloo . What else you got ?
Jump on the train , I've been in the arch , and so every's open . Oh fair enough Right , ok , yeah , no , that's not a recent thing , I've been at different months , so that's in February , so I'll be good luck .
How are you going to prepare differently for that , do you think ? Because it's not flat by any means , but it's going to be very different to the lakes .
I'll be honest , I don't think it's not going to be like a primary goal race . It's going to be a race that I do and I'll do the very , very best I can , but I'm not going to target my training specifically for it .
I'm going to target my training for other things in May , april , may time , and just do that as a kind of a B race with an awesome field . It's got an amazing field of runners there and , as I say , I'll do my very , very best . But no , I'm not going to do anything specific .
If I'm honest , maybe go find some steps in the woods and do them and go up and down the steps .
Yes , exactly . So I've got somebody who's running the arc of Attrition 100 . And one of the first things I said to him is have you got any steps near you ? Because you're going to need to . That last 5K is brutal with the steps . So , yeah , definitely , definitely some steps to be a good or a stepper in the gym . So what is your big goal then ?
What is your next ? What's next for Andy Berry ?
Next I'll be 100% clarity . I know that the next year isn't decided . I know that some . Whether I go back for that 79th top in May , whether I do something different , we're not 100% sure yet . We'll probably see how winter goes and adapt it from there . But some speed to challenge some of the shorter ones , or whether max out my speed .
So but yeah , I think after , I think just I might go try to do something in October , maybe a party book again , okay , but I've only got one weekend free . So whether we'll massively play a part , whether I decide to actually go for that , but I've had a great year . I have had the time of my life this year from the Trampers round .
So I see them as three different things . So I did a round in Scotland's in winter and managed to pull the time down a little bit for that in the end of January . So that was my adventure . That was like the best adventure day that I had . Then I had my dream day , dream goal , that two years filled in two in in May with the latest 24 hour record .
And then I had just the greatest day on the trails that I've had in my running at Lakeland . So if I do nothing else this year , then just go back to building up a big base ready for next year .
Maybe go and do some just have a play in a winter round in December or something , but just just me and some friends just having a laugh rather than anything serious . Then I'm more than happy with how this year has turned out . I've got no obligation to anybody other than myself , and so if it doesn't feel right , I won't do it .
If it does feel right , I'll do it .
And I think that's great to be able to do that , to be able to say you know what I've done , the things I want to do , and to keep , I think , to keep training interesting to you know . Like you say , just go and have a , have a play in the mountains for a couple of couple of weekends .
I definitely I'd love to get an entry in towards the end of next year . That would be . That would be amazing . So going to see what I can do , getting the ballot and start emailing people beg to steal and borrow a place . So yeah , so towards the end , it would be amazing back in the next year . But other than that , I haven't .
I haven't set my heart on anything in particular .
Any interest to go after the likes of Damien's records on the Pennine Barrier or anything like that ? You know you talk about going longer , seeing how far you can push yourself . That's a pretty well known one .
No , probably not the Pennine way , for now I think that that's . It's not on my radar . I'm not saying never and never saying never .
I think my next like goal that doesn't even have a date on it , that doesn't even exist yet , but is that little voice in the back of my head would be all the way in right , that little voice , is that little voice is going , could you ? Maybe ? I don't know so I've been it only at that stage .
It isn't at the how , or the oh yeah , let's do it , or the oh , we're going to do it . It's no idea that it's just at the could you so ? But the tortoise , he wants to definitely be a step towards that longer distance sleep deprivation , working with that .
So , and then it's funny , the spine race is always one of those ones that's like no , I don't want to do it , but I always know that I'm going to do it at some point .
Yeah .
So that's the way of the back of your mind . Yeah , it'll happen Like I was so inspired by them this year that that's the closest I've ever come to to signing up , which is why I then went the week after up to Scotland my tranters round . So I was just like I need to do something .
These people are doing all these amazing things and I want to go do something amazing . So off I go . So yeah , but yeah , it's just all exciting . I just love running , I love being in the hills , I love the adventure , I love pushing myself . I don't see any reason why I would stop anytime soon . So we'll just kind of see .
And you've taken that love of running to helping other runners . Now you are Andy Berry coaching .
Yeah .
So yeah .
So I've got my start of my coaching , which is , again , it's kind of built up alongside my own journey . I've been been working towards starting that and so I started that in April . I was always going to start at small , so I just started with like two athletes . Yeah , now you know we're up to . I think we're up to about eight , eight or nine .
I've got a couple who haven't started yet . So it's like , do you count the ones who haven't started yet ?
They're coming .
They're starting , but in September . But no , it's great , I love it . I love the diverse people that you get to meet and they're they're different reasons , they're different life scenarios that you have to work around and getting inspired . I just love hearing other people's journeys in the , in the ultra run , and then buying in .
I want to buy into them so that they buy into me , yeah , and and make it work for them . I know what it's like when running doesn't quite fit in with life and I don't want my coaching to be that for anybody else . I wanted to work for them long term . That's when they'll see the benefits . If it works long term .
The sky's the limit for them and and that's one thing I really like to to impress upon them , no matter how long they work with me . If they only work with me for six months , sure they're not going to see the immediate benefits , but if they take the lessons that I can try and teach them forward , then then hopefully they will yeah .
And it's .
¶ Coaching and Collaboration in Running Community
You know I people ask me . If somebody asked me , why have you got ? You know , andy Berry is just one of the Lakeland 100 . Are you going to talk about his coaching ?
Because that'd be a bit weird , because you're a coach too , but I , I think I think good coaching is good , good coaches are good for coaching in general Because you know , through the pandemic , there were a lot of Instagram coaches popping up and you're like you know , have you got any qualifications ? You've got actually any experience ?
And and also I'm a big believer that there's plenty of people who need coaches that we don't all have to call over each other and argue about . You know who's working with who . So you know , I'm delighted to put another coach in the spotlight and say you know , andy Berry , how do people get in contact with you ?
And you know how does that , how does that work ?
Absolutely , and I think that the qualifications and things that you know , that they're all just part of it . But how you , we can , we can do the same qualifications . So , say the USQ qualification , and you know , both get through that that's you know , it's good , it's you know . The resource of knowledge that they're always building there is is invaluable .
But how you coach and I coach can be very different , like on a day to day level . They're going to have similarities , so I can learn from you and you can learn from me , and that's positive . I think that's my first . I don't see it , as you know , coaches should be against each other in any way , shape or form , because otherwise how do I ?
You know , you might have I don't know , you might have vast experience of working with a woman who's gone through menopause and I might have just got a woman who's gone through menopause . Now I can read all the literature , but you might go , oh right , the literature says that , but I did this and it worked amazingly well . You might want to try it .
So you know , that's just one example . But yeah , things like that have , have have adapted , adapted the written word and go you know , oh , has this happened ? Yes , try this Amazing . No , that's what we should be . We should be there to help each other , really , absolutely .
And that's exactly what I want to do with this podcast is , as more you know , coaches come on board , come on to the come on to the show is to talk about coaching and how we can help each other and actually show people that you know we are a good community of good people trying to do good things for a sport that , ultimately , we just love and we love
to help other people to do it . And you know it doesn't have to be that . You know that whole . But you know he says he says that and you say that well , yeah , that's right , you know we are both different coaches .
We've both got , you know , probably different methodologies that will , you know , will follow , and philosophies , but does that make either of us wrong ? Or , you know , all coaches are going to be different . I think that's fantastic , that you know we can all put each other , you know , in the spotlight and work together . So I see it very .
You know it's exactly the same .
As you know , some of our backgrounds come from from from plumbing and things . You can give the same drawings to two different plumbers , both who are gas-safe , registered , fully qualified plumbers , and they'll plumb that house completely differently . It doesn't mean that the plumbing won't work .
Yeah , and that's what you do in your day job , right ? You're a plumber , so hard time .
I've reached the point now so I can split my time between my coach and my plumber . But yeah , so I do that as well . It gives me yeah , gives you , the pitch .
Yeah , I say it all the time it's very rare that you'll find a full , full , full , full time running coach it's . We're not going to be multi-millionaires out of it , that's for sure . We do it for the love , a bit like nurses , yeah .
And it's like you've got . It's part of the thing , isn't it ? So there's so many good running coaches out there , but as soon as somebody says they have some crazy number of athletes , alarm bells are ringing . How are you giving each of those people the attention that they may need ?
Yeah , 100% , andy . It's been amazing having you on the show . Thank you very much for coming on , and if people want to find you , how can they get hold of you ?
Best is Instagram . At the minute , the website is still on my list of things that needs a lot of work .
Oh , yes , there is so many hours in the day . Mate , I'm three years in and I'm still sitting around with my websites . Don't worry .
So yeah . So Instagram is the best way . Andy Double Underscore Barry or Andy Berry Cochin . The links are on football , they're on eBay , so yeah cool .
So , folks , if you want to get Andy as your coach , reach out to him . He's got some amazing experience in the ultra and particularly the mountain running world . I might even get in touch with you for some downhill tips , mate , because it's not my strong point . I'm good going uphill , but going downhill I'm not . So thank you , Andy .
Trust your strength and conditioning .
Trust your strength and conditioning Well . Yeah , I know I do need to trust it . I have a very good strength and conditioning coach .
So don't overthink it , don't overthink it .
There you are . I think that's half the problem with people is they get scared of sending it mentality going downhill .
Right , but thank you . No , it's been very fun , Andy . Yeah , it's been awesome .
Thanks very much for coming on board and I will see you on the talk Facebook group . And thank you very much . Speak soon , yeah thank you Bye .