¶ Intro / Opening
I am here with Francesca Perceval. She is an executive coach, HR leader, and proud neurodivergent professional, working to change the way we understand autism and leadership. Thanks for coming on. So Francesca, what matters most to you right now, and what's the story behind it?
Okay. So the understanding of autism. So that's in the workplace, in Sharps Retail Services Society more generally. And the reason being that I'm late diagnosed autistic, and if understanding had been greater, I would've been diagnosed a lot sooner. and also. Now I'm diagnosed. There's a lot of evidence that the support and understanding just isn't there. So yeah, that's why it matters
¶ Francesca's Late Diagnosis Journey
to me at the moment.
So how did you come to be late diagnosed?
So my stepdaughter was actually diagnosed and when I was told this, I was just like, what? That's crazy. 'cause my knowledge of autism was so narrow and based on old fashioned stereotypes. It was based on what my parents had told me about it. So I just thought it was crazy. And then. The more I looked into it and then she was actually diagnosed. I was like, hang on a minute, all that is me as well. So I went across to the GP and, asked for a referral.
Waited 18 months, which is agonizing 'cause you're in this limbo land of am I, aren't I? And if I'm not, then what? What does this mean about me? What, could I be?
So, you were tested and then you had to wait that long for the results or just that's how long it took you to get tested there.
How long it took to wait for the assessment. which actually 18 months is pretty good. some people wait as long as four or five years.
Wow. Okay, so after 18 months you got the results and then.
And then, yeah, so you have all these tests. and then I had a four hour, zoom call 'cause it was at the end of lockdown, so they weren't doing face-to-face yet. And at the end of the four hour zoom call, they said to me, we are in absolutely no doubt that we have a highly intelligent autistic woman sitting in front of us. And then. I got a report a few weeks later, with about 13 recommendations in it, and that's it. Then you, there's nothing else. There's no, follow up.
There's, you're just like,
¶ Challenges and Realizations Post-Diagnosis
oh, okay.
So how, did that change your, how you interacted just in everyday life? What did that mean to you?
it, it was. Because I didn't want to go through the 18 months doing too much research and self-identifying and self diagnosing too much. 'cause I thought, if I go down that rabbit warren and get to the end of the 18 months or the end of the weight period and say, oh no, you're not autistic, then that would've been a bit weird. so I didn't do an awful lot of research before the assessment. So when I was then told, I was like, I need to do some learning myself. So that was quite.
You go down all sorts of rabbit holes and then, I started to feel like an imposter because I was like, all these people who are autistic, they know so much about it. They're using all this terminology that I don't understand. they're saying all these things I just don't get, or some things just, they're not me. So I thought maybe I don't really belong in the autistic community, and maybe the diagnosis was wrong and then I was thinking, but then actually I'm not holistic either.
I'm definitely not. 'cause I just know I don't fit in that world either really. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Really hard.
So it, the diagnosis changed your perception of what autism is
Definitely. Yeah.
So tell me, how did it change?
When I realized it could be me, so I think. That's the original stereotypes that you hear. So it's all very based on the classic, presentation of autism as they refer to it now. Which is when, autism was first discovered, it was based on a, group of boys or the research that was done. So it was done on how this quite small group of boys, Embodied autism. So things like collecting rocks, collecting dinosaurs, I collect shoes, but that's a perfectly valid special interest.
Things like, I, I dunno, a lot of stuff is just very negatively worded. So rigidity, and routine instruction. It's actually everybody probably needs some level of routine and structure. It's just that it, sometimes matters more to the autistic brain because the world can feel very confusing and chaotic. So by having this structure around you that actually helps you cope, more than anything. I'm trying to think what else. I suppose masking is another thing.
So typically, a lot of people who are autistic will mask because, society generally thinks that some of the things that autistic people do are just a bit weird for want of a better word. and it's not weird, it's just different. It's just different to how they might behave or different to how the majority of people might behave. so you suppress those things. I'm trying to think of a good example of, what I would suppress. So I suppose, I like doing jigsaws, jigsaws is quite soothing.
It's quite relaxing for me. but that's not cool when you're a 15-year-old girl. so you just, you don't do them and you actually take that away from yourself. You sacrifice that and that. That's not very nice, your wellbeing. So as part of my post diagnostic thing, I've embraced those things that I, liked and would perhaps have hidden and do more of them.
So you've, essentially, have you stopped masking? Is that something that happens or you just are more aware of it?
I don't think you can ever stop masking. and certainly in some cultures it would be almost unsafe, to stop masking. but you find out where it's safe. Not to mask or you mask less or you put yourself in environments where you don't need to mask quite so much. So there are people who you might find that you need to mask more around. and you might notice that because you come away and you've got a headache, you are dissecting the situation you've just been through.
did you do the right facial expressions? Did you make enough eye contact? Did you show enough interest? Did you say all the right things? And that's really draining. And you come away, you. I have a terrible headache, feel extremely exhausted. and so you think, okay, I'm not gonna put myself in that situation again, or I'm not gonna, I'm gonna spend less time in those kind of situations and more time in situations where I don't feel all those horrible things.
so what, is it about, what do you want, what matters to you about this? Are you wanting to communicate to others about, being late diagnosed, spreading awareness? Is it, more about people understanding sort of the range of autism and what autism is, or is it all of the above?
And it's probably all of the above. just so there's just more general understanding and acceptance. I dunno, things like standing in a queue when you're autistic is really hard. I think the general population just think, oh gosh, they just don't wanna cue. Nobody likes queuing. But actually when you're autistic and you're standing in Q eights in a supermarket and you've got the noise, you've got the bright lights, you've got people around you in close proximity, that's the sensory nightmare.
And also often it co-occur with things like ADHD, which can lead to perhaps impatience. so standing in that queue is even worse. So it is those layers of things that make that situation really hard. Unless you've experienced it, you don't know. And if you just think of, how rubbish you feel standing in a queue and amplify that. That's what it's like for the autistic person standing there.
So getting the awareness what is autism as well as. that, helping people understand that, they might be autistic, they might be on the spectrum, and that it's, not about the diagnosis, it's about understanding yourself having a better way forward with understanding more about who you are relative to the diagnosis.
Yeah. Yeah.
¶ The Double Empathy Problem
and there's also something called a concept called the Double Empathy Problem. So that's around autistic people, particularly those who mask a lot, spend a lot of time trying to accommodate. Hollistic people by behaving in ways that feel more comfortable for the holistic person. communicating in ways that the holistic person understands. Whereas holistic people don't spend as much time doing that with autistic people. They don't think, oh, how can I behave in a way that.
We'll be more accommodating for autistic people. How can I communicate in a way that autistic people understand better? So that's what we mean by the double empathy problem, is that it's almost like two different languages trying to communicate with each other. and one party sometimes is doing more or making more effort than the other party.
And by the way, why should someone who naturally thinks one way have to adopt to how everybody else is interacting? you adopt to me.
Absolutely. Yeah.
¶ Speed Round: What Matters?
Yeah.
Okay. again, thank you for sharing so openly, Francesca, before we wrap, up, let's shift gears to the speed round. Okay. So we'll go through some general topics and you can tell us that they matter, not matter. And you can also skip.
Okay.
And then also why, if you have just a little, few sentences as to why. Okay.
Okay.
neurodiversity?
Matters.
coaching.
matters.
Are you're an executive coach. I.
I am. Yes. And that's something that actually came post-diagnosis, because I had coaching myself. it was one of the sort of strategies I took on to help myself function better.
Workplace inclusion,
Matters.
emotional intelligence, self-advocacy,
matters.
pizza.
doesn't matter. Coffee. Doesn't matter. Gives me a headache.
Does it matter? Coffee,
No, it gives me a headache.
artificial intelligence.
Matters in lots of ways. And actually it's really helpful for autistic people and neurodivergent people. And if we think about ADHD brains, which are typically more creative, then I think AI has its place in terms of allowing the creative minds to flourish and using AI to help those minds flourish.
Yes. As an enhancement to creativity. A way almost articulate what's in your, thoughts? Cake.
It matters.
You said you love cake.
I do, I'm particularly a, Brownie fan, but certain brownies, I'm quite fussy. about them.
Sushi,
It doesn't matter. I can't cope with the texture of rice.
dogs
Don't matter. I'm really sorry. Too many dog lovers. I know there are lots of them out there, but I can't cope with lots of things about dogs
video games.
Matters. And actually they can be quite soothing, particularly for autistic brains. I do video games myself in the evening as a way to decompress and regulate.
Politics.
Oh gosh. But it's scary
It is exercise.
matters. It's good for the brain, good for the body.
Shoes.
Definitely matters. Always been a special interest, right from as long as I can remember.
So you just collect shoes, do you, are they new shoes or are they. Use
used shoes. Sounds a little bit odd. but, with, sustainability, I suppose the, buying new, used choose is increasing. but yeah, that they are usually new. They are usually slightly unusual. Not necessarily, I don't necessarily wear them. Sometimes I'll just look at them and like to look at them. and shoe shopping is lots of fun. And you never grow out of shoes.
Yeah, been, buying shoes to wear around the house.
Oh, what kind?
I've just, I don't know. I just, it's just, because I work from home
Yeah.
I've just been, I see some shoes and I'll just, oh, they'll, and I'll just wear
¶ Francesca's Coaching and Contact Information
them around the house. I won't wear them out. Francesca, thank you so much for being here and sharing and where can people connect with you to learn more about Sparkly Frog Coaching, which we haven't even talked about.
Oh gosh, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. so yeah, Sparkly Frog Coaching is my new side hustle at the moment, where I'm growing my coaching business, to help other neuro divergent individuals and neurotypical as well. Because I, during my training, I've proven that I can work well with all neurotypes. you can get me on LinkedIn or Instagram, Sparkly Frog underscore Francesca.
That's great. Thanks again for hopping out with us.