Richard Hawley at the Crucible

This is the BBC. Hello, I'm John Wilson. This is Master Tapes from BBC Radio 4.

Welcome to Master Tapes on Tour and to Richard Hawley singing live at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield. We're here to talk about the art of songwriting with the Steel City's very own maestro of the melancholy melody, a lyricist who's found inspiration in Sheffield's Richard Hawley's albums are like a musical map of the city. Just look at the titles alone. Cole's Corner, Ladies Bridge, Low Edges, True Love's Gutter, Hollow Meadows, Standing at the Sky's Edge, all are references to places.

In and around Sheffield. And that last one is also the title of a new musical here at the Crucible Theatre, which uses Richard's songs. To help tell the stories of residents of the Park Hill Flats, the big brutalist housing estate, which overlooks the city, and which I've got to say, we can see. From the room which we are using here at the Crucible today. Just look out the window there. There is Park Hill. Richard, welcome to Master Tapes. Thank you.

Yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Yeah, commiseration. We've got Clive Meller as well on harmonica. Clive's coming later, isn't it?

Special guest appearance. You open the show with As the Dawn Breaks, which is from the True Love's Gutter album. And those opening lines that we heard there really typically Hawley Esque, I think, As the Dawn Breaks over roof slate. Hope hung on every washing line. A song rooted like many of yours in Sheffield, isn't it?

Mae'r idea mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd mewn gwirionedd. It looks like Coronation Street, but on a hill, you know, and you can just see everybody's washing line going and we lived there for ten years.

And my sons were born in that house. I admit to being a filthy, stinking smoker. And I never smoked in the house because of the kids. And we'd moved out, all the removal men had kind of taken everything. And I'd got the keys and I had to put them through the letter box, you know, of the last person there. And I went upstairs and we had a Velux window and I opened it and it was the only time I ever had a fag in the house.

I had a fag and just looked up the hill and saw the washing and it was raining of course. I think it's really beautiful, you know, to see the reflection of the sky on the slates of the houses. and just people's washing. And as I was walking up the hill I just got the idea for the song. But there's a coder to it and this is not in Sheffield. Me and Chez were doing a gig. Chez where was it? It was somewhere in Scandinavia, wasn't it? Which is the And I think I've got that far.

And it was driving me insane and I couldn't finish it off and that often happens. And some songs you write a fragment of it and then it'll come to you later in the weirdest of places. And this place where it came to me was rare weird. Because we were in a gymnasium that was our dressing room for this gig in Norway. At the time I'd got a number one album in Norway which is a bit like having a number one album in Rotherham, you know.

Otho Rotherham sydd wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i And it was obviously minus a million as well. And it sounded quite nice in the gymnasium because actually it got a really good echo to it. As the light creeps over. I rain. And then it was that this cord where it was. And it resolves. Yeah. So thank you.

Ha ha ha. I was just asking about that line, the slate's all darked by rain. Great invented verb. Yeah,'cause I couldn't find another word that worked for what was in my head. That happens quite a lot. Yeah. Just seem to be darked by rain. There is an influence, I guess. I just remember reading when I was a teenager and early twenties a lot of beat poetry, you know, Gregory Cosa, Karawak, the poetry stuff in Ginsburg and they would if there wasn't a word for it they'd just invent it. Yeah.

I used to rise. sat down with a guitar all the time and I mean I I still do'cause I'm in love with guitars and when I was younger, before I got signed and anybody was interested in what I did is I'd sit and get excited and I just thought, you know, if I write some songs and they might be hits and you never know I'm

I might end up on a tour bus to somewhere like Belgium, you know. But as I get older I'm wiser and my writing I I still write every day but I'm more reticent to show it to people because basically I might end up on a tour bus in Belgium.

Tell us something about your upbringing. I mean you grew up here in the in the city. Your dad was a steelworker, wasn't he? It was, yeah. He was a musician as well. From the late fifties up until the mid seventies he was semi pro, he played in bands and then he'd to top up the family's income, he'd work in the steelworks as well, and eventually the music thing kinda petered out for him.

and he took up steelworks full time. But I don't know how people did that. I couldn't do it. Dad would work twelve, fourteen hours at in the steelworks and then come home. Have a bath when he'd get picked up by a little Reggie. He won't blow up locally who had a van, so he was immediately the roading.

And he'd just go out and play and then do it all ad infinitum for twenty plus years, you know. But when I decided to get interested in guitar, Dad had kind of fit me in to all that and I thought that was really precious and important. And I don't know how he did it. The time. Did he teach you then? Did he sit down with the guitar? He had a trick, and my granddad was the same. I'd say, Dad, how'd you play this? And it'd be, I don't know. Yeah. As the base.

and then you split your hand up And then you put them both together. And how do you do that, Dad? Oh I've gotta go. I need you to leave me with this actual mathematical and physical equation and I'll be there going. Because he wouldn't show me the whole thing. You had to kind of push yourself. And then, you know, after about thirty years I think I've almost got it right Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw

Yeah, he was a soldier and a musician and he played violin and piano which to my regret I never listened to him teach me those instruments. I was just obsessed with the guitar, you know. And your uncle as well, Frank White. Tell us about Frank White because he was quite a local legend, wasn't he, Frank?

It still is, yeah. Frank and Dad at the time, Britain and America had some trade embargo thing and there was a big uh issue with the musicians union where a lot of the American artists couldn't bring their own musicians into the country. But it meant that without that slightly draconian rule thing, there wouldn't be a Rolling Stones, there wouldn't be the animals, there wouldn't have been all that British interest in the blues and music history definitely wouldn't have evolved the way it has.

Yeah. Trade exchange, yeah. As a result, Dad got to meet and work with people like Memphis Slim and Sonny Boy Williamson, John Lee Hooker. Wow, Dad got to back those. Frank, he played with little Walt. Yeah, exactly So was it an inevitability that you were going to follow their path?

No, definitely not. You'd have to light your own fire and kind of almost pester them. I've got to be honest, you know, the penny dropped. When I got to comprehensive school and I'd already been playing since I was about maybe eight, nine, and was really interested in it. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher took over power and if you were a northern boy or girl it was very apparent very very quickly that you weren't part of her plan.

So you better invent your own stuff pretty quick. Dad lost his job around that period of time and things got pretty bleak really quick and there was hundreds and hundreds of men and women, thousands of men and women in the city that and the north particularly. that were affected by a lot of decisions. So, you know, I found myself having a guitar and the guitar turned into my shovel and it's dug me a few holes, I'll tell you, but it's and it's got me out a few as well, you know.

You're gonna play us a song now from

Well it's a album that a lot of people love, Cole's Corner. The title track. Just before you play it, just tell us something about Cole's Corner, the place. It is a landmark. It's a city place where people meet, isn't it? It was from Cole Brothers, which is now I don't know if they're allowed to use corporate brands or whatever, but is now called John Lewis, you know. I still go there from electrical goods, you know. Three year guarantee, you know what I mean?

Master Tapes brought to you by John Lewis. But it became a landmark and people used to meet at Cole's Corner. They knocked it down in nineteen sixty nine. I was two at the time. So it was long gone by the time I got to even talk, let alone writing songs. But people would still say I'll meet you at Cole's Corner, but the people who would say that at the time were getting older and older and older. And I thought that the romantic idea of that would obviously

fall off, you know, it would disappear. So I just wanted to write a song about that. Due to contractual restrictions, we're unable to include the complete performance in our download. If you want to hear the song in its entirety, head to the Master Tapes pages on the Radio 4 website. two sons we had a double boogie and I used to push him to park.

And put'em both in the swings and there was a rhythm where I'd be pushing'em like that, because I'm not strong enough to push'em both together. And this I don't know, a bit like swing ball, obviously not with kids involved, you know. But yeah, you just push one at a time like that, kind of thing, them next to each other. And the rhythm of it and I sort of went into a bit of a trance because if anybody's a parent here when you've got kids on a swim. Never ever end.

And I kinda went into a bit of a trance and just started s humming this maladie. It was before the age of the mobile phone, because I love'em because they've got like a reality. Субтитры сделал DimaTorzok Voice memo thing. Job done, back to pushing the swings. But I didn't have that and I had an old fashioned dictaphone tape. That used to record stuff so badly that when you listened back to it, whatever it was that you sang into it, it always came back like Jimi Hendrix Purple A's.

'Cause it was just all distorted, you know. So I sort of stuffed them into the pram and I bombed it back. all the way up Ramby Road and got them in the house and I had to keep this melody in my head. And when you've got things like that, I don't know about other writers, but it's like holding onto water in your hands.

Like a cupped hand, slowly dripping away because you're thinking about other things and your synapses and your brain are starting to be aware of other things and to keep focused on a melody. without forgetting it. Anyway, just managed to get home.

Ran upstairs. Obviously, my wife was looking after the children. I didn't leave them in the street or all like that, you know. Ran upstairs, figured it a rough melody out, and then put Bishop Hauley live at the Sheffield Crucible Theatre singing Cole's Corner together with Chase Sheridan, John Trier and Clive Meller on the harmonica there.

That was the title track from what was the fourth album, Cold's Corner, wasn't it? Which was nominated for the Mercury Prize that year, two thousand and five, and a pretty good year for the city. I think that was the year that the Arctic Monkeys won it, wasn't it? Thanks for reminding me. But Alex Turner jumped on stage and famously said, Somebody call nine nine nine, Richard Hawley's been robbed.

Yeah, bless him. But I was glad that he'd said that. Not because he'd obviously big me up and all that, but it was kind of like sort of winning it without winning it. So we had to do all the press nonsense and I didn't

Let's talk about the Sheffield Sound, if there is such a thing. I mean, there is that bittersweet thing which is in your music a lot. You hear that in the Arctic Monkeys, but I mean, if you think about the people that have come out of this city and Joe Cocker, Human League. Cabra Voltaire, Def Leopard, Heaven Seventeen. It's a pretty diverse musical city, isn't it?

I've I've been asked this question, so you kind of come up with some sort of glib explanation of why everyone's really, really different. But in Sheffield we have a thing called Little Mesters. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud. Yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

of doing the same thing in a way. If you take the analogy as the same thing being music. Yeah. But all their secrets were really closely guarded and they'd keep'em to themselves. And I think that in this city you can kind of be yourself in a sort of isolation until it's time to come out and perform on stage. I think it's all right to be an individual here. You know what I mean?

And that sense of romantic yearning which is in a lot of your songs. Is that just an expression of your character do you think, or is that something that you've picked up from music that you love, that you listen to? It's an expression of my character, you know, is that I'm basically miserable, you know.

We hear it in Open Up Your Door, which starts very, very intimately, and it just grows and grows and grows. I mean, it's typical of a lot of your work, isn't it? Tell us something about that song. I remember it just being a fragment on a I think I might have graduated to the digital world by that point. It was a phone, wasn't it? It wasn't like a dictaphone.

I found my mojo in Yellow Arch Studios, which is in Neepsend, which is one of the last industrial parts of Sheffield, which is changing because, you know, you can buy croissants down there now. It's run by Colin Elliott who kind of co produces stuff we mean and uh he writes all the string parts as well.

And we used to jam in there with these ideas that I'd got and the thing that sticks in my mind is that we'd got it and I remember I knew it needed a change and it was Cole that came up with it g was it moving up or forth, wasn't it? When there's that It goes up to a fourth and the thing, and that was Carl's idea that. But I wanted it to sound like the child.

You know, that really easy but persistent groove, you know, that was what was in my mind. I know that it sounds bugger all like the Chilites, but you know, you gotta sometimes aim your arrow somewhere, you know. I was determined for it to have a certain mood that you would specifically put it on if you're in a certain friend of mind, you know, like mine, obviously I've referred to that before, miserable git, you know. But no, it'd just been mellow.

And you you're writing primarily for yourself. I mean when a song comes you don't think will this one be for me or for somebody else?

I uh that that's for me personally it's a dangerous game now. I've done it. You did it with Shirley Bassy, in fact, didn't you? That song After the Rain? Which is very uncharacteristic for her because it's not the big belter that you associate with her. It's actually a very sort of quite an intimate song, isn't it? I suspected when I got asked to write that song that everybody would go for the jugular, they'd go for the big bombastic kind of ballad, you know, which I knew I could do.

But I'd got this little thing, but I don't mess with that tuning. It was quite folk. And that was kind of where it started. And it's got a drop D on the bottom. I'm not going to mess with that because we're going to have to play a song in a bit. But were you setting her a challenge on purpose or were you challenging yourself?

Well no, because I I kinda thought well if I'm gonna get a song on there I'd rather it kinda challenge her. I was being a bit cheeky. Mm. I thought that it would make her not belt it out, that she'd have to sing in a completely different way. It's quite exposing in a way, for And come down to my level.'Cause she's amazing, you know.

He just handed it over and that was that was it. It was David Arnold who's a lovely guy and a really talented guy. He did that record. You know, he'd ring me up and tell me she likes it and that that was you know, I got shivers down back of my neck, you know. That'd do for me if Shirley Bassi sang one of your songs, Job done, lads, off we go.

Let's have some more live music. We're gonna have a song which provides the title for your seventh album, but also for the new stage musical which is being prepared here at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield. I can't believe I'm doing a musical. Well, I'm gonna ask you about that. Actually I'm not doing a musical. I'm I'm a part of a musical though.

So tell us about the song Standing at the Sky's Edge, which is the title of the musical. But Sky's Edge is another place in Sheffield. In fact, we could probably see it from out the window. Yeah, I used to play there as a kid and uh I got that sinking feeling at that period of time when I wrote that.

And it made me so angry that people were being treated like just so disposable and our youth being undervalued and the way that they're treated at school just like not people. And it's just in right. I suppose it came out as a bit of a political song, to say the least, I guess.

I do try, I I sometimes fantasise that I'd be really eloquent like Billy Bragg or someone like that. They're so good at the political edge and be that eloquent to do it. But I always end up thinking about people rather than massive political statements. And that's the thing that I always come back to is how does it affect people, you know, because I'd lived through that already with what happened to my parents and us and the whole community in Firth Park.

What all these stupid political machinations, where they end up, and what happens to human beings. And that's why I wrote that song. Joseph was Amen. If you want to hear a full version of this song or any of the others recorded live at Maid Avail, head to the Master Tapes pages of the Radio 4 website, where you'll also find photographs and videos from the sessions. Standing at the sky's edge, Richard Hawley live at the Sheffield Crucible for master tapes.

with Shelley Sheridan, Clive Meller and John Trier, proper acoustic feedback going on there. Yeah. Let's talk about Standing at the Sky's Edge, the musical. A Richard Hawley musical about postwar social housing. Set in Sheffield. It's not the most likely subject for a stage musical, is it? It's probably the only subject that'd get me interested in making a musical, you know, really.

We were doing a gig in in Portugal and Graham, our manager, had organised for some theatre type people to come and see us. The gig had finished and we were in the dressing room and mentioned this idea of Well we'd like to use your songs to do a musical And that got gales of laughter from the lads. And I was non plus or shocked slightly'cause for a start, I hate musical. Thank you.

But then I sat down with my wife and she actually said, Well, we don't, none of us do. We've all watched Wizard of Oz. Some of you nodded there. Yeah. Singing in the rain. The Elvis films for a start, Beatles films, whether you like it or not, they're musicals, whether good or bad, but they are. And Oliver, which is a good one. So actually I don't hate musicals at all. I love'em. Especially now. But this is a really interesting.

At least that's something to do with the subject matter. So we just explain it. The Park Hill flats, we can see them from this room. Big estate built in the late fifties, early sixties, the streets in the sky, this would represented hope for the people of Sheffield. They knocked down a lot of houses, slum housing over there. A story told with your songs, but not in a narrative way. This is not Mamma Mia or We Will Rock You, is it?

Rupert Lord and Rob Hasey at the Crucible and Chris Bush and lots of other people as well, they convinced me to do it. You know, it was gonna be interesting to see this tiny little subject of like post war Britain, you know. Up to now, how are you going to get that in a musical, you know? But Chris's script is amazing because she's kind of chosen three little apertures, three little windows into which you can see the whole arc of the history. It's not a documentary.

I was definitely very keen to make sure that it wasn't some kind of soapbox sort of finger wagging history lesson.'Cause people in Sheffield are all aware of what happened to us. We don't need reminders. It's kind of not about that. It's of it being hopeful, I think, out of all that horror and the history of the place that something in the end good came out of it.

Let's talk about the way your songs have been reinterpreted. And you said earlier you write for yourself. You don't usually write for other people. Has it been hard handing them over and allowing them to be reinterpreted? Because they take on a totally different meaning, don't they? Yeah, I remember Graham, my manager saying, Right, what they're gonna do is they're gonna take your songs and rip'em to bits and then they're gonna dance around wafting scarves and stuff like that.

I said is it gonna look anything like the opening of the Olympics? Are you the only person in the country that didn't like the opening of the Olympics? Yeah. Yeah. No, it was never the intention to make it something like that. That idea that after the war, you know, this country was on its knees. And I remember as a kid in Darnell going to see my grandmother on Furnioff Street, which doesn't exist anymore.

There was a wrecked Sunderland bomber. That was in the seventies, you know, still there because nobody could afford to clear it, you know, and we used to play on it, you know. So you know, the idea of somewhere that had free heating, you reused all the rubbish to provide the heating by burning it in the furnaces and all that.

ac yn ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n mynd was why they built these places, to clear these slums and I've been told first hand what it was like to live in those places and it was hell, you know. So at the time it was a brilliant solution to a horrific problem, you know.

So you've handed over a set of your songs and just that idea of musical reinterpretation. We're gonna put that to the test now. What are the songs that features in the musical? is Open Up Your Door, which you discussed earlier. And it's performed by a character called Nicky in the musical. Mamuna Memon, who plays Nicky, is here with us. She's stepped from one rehearsal room into another. Come up and join us.

Ramura, you're gonna sing, no pressure here, because you're gonna sing Open Up Your Door. And I know you're still in preparation for the musical. So you're gonna give us the reworked version of Open Up Your Door. I can see if you I can't include all of this track in the podcast, but you can hear it uninterrupted on the BBC pages of the Radio 4 website. Mwena, Mwena singing Open Up Your Door, accompanied by Will Stewart, who is the musical director for Standing at the Sky's Edge.

Thank you. Is that strange to hear your songs taking on a new lease of life then? Yeah, don't expect me to sing after that. Won't he little me? Yeah. It is amazing, you know. I've kind of joked about it all and stuff, but it it is a wonderful thing that's happening and I'm really pleased to be a part of it.

I mean not radically different from your version, although it's stripped down, but there's some chords there which are different from I mean sort of jazz inflected chords there. I don't think it is. I don't have a word about them. You know, I've jazzed codes in Firth Park, you know what I mean?

There are I think three or four songs that you've written specially for the musical or which are will be appearing on your new album and one of those is My Little Treasures. Did you write that specifically for the musical? No, I never thought I could kind of write for, like a production sort of writer. And recently I did a song for the film called Funny Count, which has got Maxine Peak in it and I thought I'll give it a go but I'm not really sure. And I wrote that song on three dog walls.

'Cause it's in three sections, so I went on three different dog walks and I got it. And I thought I can do this, you know what I mean?'Cause the process has changed. I I don't really sit with a guitar thrashing away trying to come up with something. I just walk the dogs. But my little treasures I'm kind of bigging it up now. This is actually the first time we've ever played. What this kind of comfort melody. I call them that. You'll have these melodies or riffs.

The it's really nice to sort of play'em and they go round and round and round but they never go anywhere. Include the whole of this track, but if you want to listen to it without interruptions, you can find it on the MasterTapes pages of the Radio 4 website. Dad's old bass player and drummer, the Jackson brothers, Roger and Pete, about a year after Dad had passed. No Pete, no Rog. Wait until about nine o'clock.

I had a pint or two and then I went home. And then next morning phone went and said, where were you? I said, I was there at 7.30. We were there at 7.30 and the penny suddenly dropped. I passed Weatherspoons, actually going at train station really, really early. And it's full of quite a lot of old blokes at seven thirty in the morning. Ah I see now, right, okay.

Richard Hawley, live at the Sheffield Crucible Theatre, singing My Little Treasures, with Shez Sheridan and John Trier. Wel premier of that then, Richard. Oh yeah. Probably the last time as well. And it's on the new album which is got you've got a title for that album yet. Yeah. A Sheffield landmark a place? Does it continue the tradition? Have you got any more questions?

I haven't got any more questions, but the audience have actually. First up is Jane Mitchell. She says she first came to Sheffield in the nineties to train as a disability nurse and still lives here. My question is, if there was a Richard Hawley Sheffield Walk, where would it start and where would it end? Yeah. Fagans. Go in Fagan's, stay there. then go home.

Where would it start? I'd follow the river,'cause we've got seven hills and five rivers, as you know. Just follow the rivers. You know, there's some beautiful things you can see along the way, you know. I remember seeing the rivers as a kit. Especialy the Don, when dad worked in the steelworks. And as a kid, I'd often go and see him and my granddad to pick him up to go to Wednesday match. Sorry, any blades were in-house, but...

You'd look at the river and there was just like red and green and blue and all kinds of different coloured globules of chemicals, you know, and there was nothing. No vegetation, no fish, nothing could live in that. And it's one of the by products of the fail in steel industry, is that the rivers now are beautiful So yeah, follow the rivers. og end i fægans og end i fægans og end i fægans og end i fægans og end i fægans You've got to explain Fagans for the non Sheffield audience listen.

Just the best pub in the known cosmo. The end. That was between albums, wasn't it? No, that was between pints, I think. Master Tapes on Tour brought to you in association with Fagans of Sheffield. Next question comes from Chris Smith, who's a retired teacher from Buxton. He says, uh my wife and I have seen Richard live many times and he is some competitive parenting. He says my children also love him, but we liked him first.

It's kind of a thing that happens to guys, you know, when you get to a certain age, you the

And mine obviously dropped a little lower than everyone else's. I sang with the family, you know what I mean? From childhood, with my grandfather and Mm mum she used to do the ironing and sing along to the Everley Brothers and Buddy Holly and stuff like that and I'd sing with her and she taught me to sing along and be the most important thing about singing is not necessarily whether you have a great voice, is the confidence to open your mouth and sing.

That's the most important thing because I'm not the greatest singer in the world at all by a long chalk, I muddle through and stuff. I mean compared to somebody like Mooner, you know, who's got a amazing range and amazing voice, you know, I'm a bit of a croaker really. But it's it's the confidence to sing and open your mouth and like kind of use your limitations as an asset. Do you know what I mean?

I think everybody can sing. We've all got a voice box and esophagus and all these things that you need to sing and it's actually having the balls and the heart enough to do it.

The next question comes from Nick Barber, who's a retired English teacher from Stoke. Nick, your question for Richard. You've been involved with several folk artists, such as Martin Simpson and Martin Carthy, Norma Watson. How much of an influence has folk music on you? It's in the soup, no doubt about it, you know. I mean mum's when I was a kid growing up, her favourites were Kate and Anna McGarrigal. She'd have those on loot.

Dad listened to Carthy a lot. And Dylan. I've been really fortunate, I guess, in the English folk. my next door neighbour's Martin Simpson, who is apart from being an excellent human being, is also an an excellent musician and a good teacher as well, actually. I listen and to have worked and listened to And learn from Martin Carthy and Norma Waterson. It's a great honour to have them in the mix. You know, there's definitely undeniably an influence.

Emotionally is one thing but politically they reinforce a lot of what I was brought up with and was taught to believe because a lot of those things have been eroded, as you know. And uh a lot of folk musicians don't get credit. for upholding a certain set of ethics and values I think that are important. I don't know if there's any folk influence in the next song that you're gonna play. For your lover gives some time, which is a really heartfelt, beautiful Very personal song, isn't it?

So personal that you can't discuss it. Now come on, tell us something about that song. Can I not talk about this one? Can we just do it? Ma anche sarà una questione. So yeah. Now again. We're a lot more slick than this at a gig, okay, yeah. No. Almost took your breath away. Master tapes pages of the Radio 4 website. That's the place to go if you want to hear this track in its entirety without interruptions. For contractual reasons, we're not allowed to include it in this podcast.

The one story I will tell you about this one and this is true. It was one of those where I I came up with something while we were doing the record. Can you just quickly record it? And this is something I do will go in with a list of say twenty songs and maybe only of those twenty songs that we've rehearsed there might be one that'll make it because I write in the studio.

You know, all the lads in the band, they're all astonishing musicians and if they know the songs too well, it's out the door. So there's always a tentativeness in the plane. So you don't quite know what's coming next. But I just remember it was just this little idea that was an icon that was sat on the computer screen for weeks while we were doing True Love's Gutter.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r hyn sylweddol i'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol a'r hyn sylweddol. Lover give some time So your lover give some time. Richard Hawley live at the Sheffield Crucible.

Another question now comes from Julie Rayner, who says she's originally from Essex, came to Sheffield specifically to see Richard perform, but she likes Sheffield more each time she came and ended up moving here and now lives on Sky Edge. Julie. My question is do you write a song with a specific guitar sound in mind or do you fit the sound to the song afterwards?

Good one that'cause I've got some really nice guitars but I also like slightly rubbish guitars as well. Old sixties or seventies, often fifties, cheap guitars. But I believe that every instrument has a song in it. So you can kind of pick up even a not very good instrument and you can write a song that only that instrument would actually show you. And you can play a perfect instrument and it can be actually really uninspiring.

We got time for one last question. I think it's one that relates back to something you were alluding to earlier about songwriting methods. It comes from Joe Hookway, another Sheffield resident. Joe, your question for Richard? You say you get the inspiration from songwriting while walking your dogs. What are the differences between songs written on dog walks and those written before you got dogs? Yeah. Are you a lawyer?

The dogs are happy with biscuits, they don't want any royalties, you know what I mean? I mean I still sit and write songs occasionally with a guitar, you know when you're kind of you're getting serious about laying it down in the studio. But as I've got older I'll tell you what it is, is I've found it

harder to get into that zone where you kind of almost in a I don't know zen I don't know define it and don't ever look at the songwriting genie. Never look her in the eye. Because don't question why you've written a song. It doesn't matter. It exists, you know. But I do know that there's a kind of flip in your head.

For me, when I'm doing something that is considered I guess to be fairly monotonous, which is putting one foot in front of the other and just moving. And I think whether you've got a dog or not, is that your mind flips into a different place without you being conscious of that.

What's interesting is having talked to dozens of songwriters on this programme on Master Tapes, one thing that songwriters say time and again is what you just said. Don't question where it comes from. You know, you're here on this program to talk about the art and craft of songwriting, but actually it's a very difficult thing to do. Music is. I mean it's it's something you can't touch, you can't physically hold in your hands. You can hold a record.

But that's not necessarily music. Even pressing the keys on a piano and hitting a drum, that isn't it either.

And we're going out with some more live music. Is tonight the streets are ours a pre or post dog song? Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre. Dyna'r pre.

Too puffy. Yeah. Well you're gonna go out with tonight the streets are ours. Let's give them some time to set up my thanks to Sher Sheridan on guitar, Clive Meller on harmonica and John Trier on piano. To our audience here in Sheffield and to the Crucible Theatre. For hosting Master Tapes on tour, most of all to Mr. Richard Hawley. All of the songs played live on Master Tapes by guests including Paul McCartney, Elvis Costello, Lily Allen, Emily Sande, Randy Newman.

And many more are available to hear in full on our MasterTapes online pages, including this one from Richard. Tonight the streets are out. Radio 4, presented by me, John Wilson, and produced by Paul Kobrak. And if you enjoyed this edition, there are plenty more with the likes of Paul McCartney, Emily Sande, Laura Marling, Benjamin Clementine, Sir Tom Jones. Paul Weller, Steel Pulse, Nigel Kennedy, and many more. All of them available on BBC Sounds.