Leon Cooperman on Finding the Overlooked Investment

have dinner at the White House with President Trump. UH. He is a participant in the Giving Pledge, where he has committed to giving away all of his billions of dollars to various philanthropies, including Columbia University, Hunter College. He UH funds a program in New Jersey that sends five hundred students to college. UH and there are few p people who know as much about the industry of investing

as he does. He has seen it from just about every angle, be it creating Goldman Successet Management Division to beating the SMP five hundred by a substantial percentage over a long period of time at the Hedge Fund. I think you'll find this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation. And so with no further ado my Master's in Business conversation with Lee Cooperman. My special guest this week is

Lee Cooperman. He has returned guest and we decided to bring him on because of some changes that he has made to his hedge funds Omega, which was launched in and has substantially beat the market by a fairly wide margin since then. Lee went to Hunter College undergrad got NBA from Columbia Business School, where he went with a

number of esteemed colleagues. He joined Goldman Sachs in nineteen sixty seven, where he spent twenty two years in investment research, where he was frequently voted onto the Institutional Investors All America research team for portfolio strategy. He helped create and launched the Goldman Sacks Asset Management Unit, where he was eventually Chief Investment Officer, Chairman and CEO UH prior to launching Omega hedge fund in Lee Cooperman, Welcome back to

bloom So. You recently set out a notice that you were converting Omega to a family office, and I thought that was as good an excuse as any to get you back UH into chat about markets in the economy. But first let's talk about that conversion. What was the thinking behind it? What what motivated that? Well, two factors. I turned seventy five in April, and I recalled reading somewhere that the statistics say, if you make it past sixty five and cancer doesn't get you, on average, will

make it to eighty five. And I did not want to spend the next ten years, the remaining ten years from average running after the SMP and there would solidified that was. I went to a concert with Kenny Rodgers, the country and Western singer who I and like his talent, and I found an interesting He was having great difficulty negotiating a stage, getting around, and he made the comment that he's turning eighty, he shouldn't be doing this anymore. But he's on his fifth marriage. He needs the money.

And I said to myself, and though I've been lucky, having married fifty four years to one woman, I don't need the money. My money is going back to society through charitable giving. Um and uh. I wanted to fold at the top. So you know that's the difference between you and Rogers. You know when to hold them and went to fold them. Apparently Kenny does not. I hope.

So basically, um Over the years, I've noticed, particularly in two thousand and eight, that a lot of hedge funds close up when they're down, and I don't consider they're just a personal view. I'm not moralizing, but I think a high water mark is an asset of the investor. And if you basically close up and give them their money back involuntarily, there was one thing that the investors, look, I had enough, I want my money back. They get

their money back. But to give them their money back when they don't want it and they're willing to bet on you turning the ship around is not right. So I was up in the sixteen seventeen, them up about seven percent this year. So everyone that's with me at this moment time is it a record high and their capital count and now's the time to fold them? Because I do believe looking out Uh you know, I'm not a pessimist, but I think it's stands the reason that

who have a market setback. I tend to be more long oriented and I don't want to be seventy seven years old owning some of the high water mark and feeling obligated to stay in business. What did clients say when you notified them, Hey we're here's some capital back. Thanks for sticking around for twenty six years. Uh, I've been very gratified. I'm not shocked, to be honestly, I don't want to stund self serving, but yeah, I've lived a very straight life. I've run the business and always

through the eyes of the investor. And the emails I've gotten are just off the charts. Uh, favorable. I could read some of the m to you. I don't want to take your time, but it's um, it's very very gratified. Hold on to those. We're gonna come back to some of those emails a little later. Um. Internally within the firm, what was the decision making process? Like you obviously have employees were the most painful part of the decision. The most painful far and away is I have to resize

the staff. You know, I have between thirty five and forty loyal working, very competent people, whether it be analytical or support. And in the family who officers, I'll probably have twelve to fifteen. So I have to help place or take care of upwards of and uh, that's the most painful part of it. You know, I've spent twenty six years building the right team, the right infrastructure, right computers, programs, everything to run the business. And I love what I do.

To be honest with you, I do what I love. Uh. In fact, tonight I'm speaking to thirty five students at Columbia Business School. I tell them the secrets of successes. Do what you love, love what you do. Don't go in through a field for money. Go into a field because you have a passionate about it, and I have a passion about investing. We're not going to continue to do. I just did not want to have the responsibility of running other people's money at this stage of my life.

So I've called you the hardest working man. And Hedge Funds, you know you're quoting my mutual friend Doug cast Brown of Hedge Funds is where I was gonna go with. Doug. Doug called you, um, when you this this transition, Are you still going to be starting at ungodly early hours and reading writing reports till midnight? Or is that right now?

My alarm clock goes over five fifty in the morning, and I spent nar in ten minutes coming in from the suburbs to New York and nar and ten minutes going home at night, and I expect that I'll sleep a little bit later, but I'll visit more companies, will be intense. I will be oriented towards long term capital games. Uh. The SMP five will be in irrelevancy to me. Uh with right now, it's not. My investors paid me a fancy fee and they deserve to get the best performance

I can give them. But I'm gonna be managing the money for AfOR tax returns after tax returns. So that's uh, that's a substantial change. What other changes are you looking at? You don't strike me as a golfer. I'm not a golfer. But I have a particular problem now as we sit here talking. I ride a bicycle in Florida every day and some octogenarian was not careful his golf cart and he hit me while I was riding my bike and

fell on my shoulder. And I have a four and a half sent to me to rotate a cuff tear, which is, you know, reasonably painful, but at this kind of ending my golf days unless I go for surgery for repair, and the surgery I'm told it's very complex and the terrible. A year of physical therapy, you you got it. And so basically I've been to four different doctors and they all said the same thing. The only reason I have surgery is if you're can't sleep at night,

you're in excruciating pain or affects your lifestyle. Thankfully, I'm able to sleep at night. The pain is mild but reasonably consistent, and it has affected my lifestyle. But I'm not a passionate golfer, so I'll live with it, and I go to physical therapy twice a week and they're trying to build up the muscles in the area to compensate for the tear. Huh. Let's talk about those days in when you first started. Jim Chano said, when he began his fun there were only a few hundred UM managers,

and most of them were generating alpha. Today there's eleven thousand hedge fund managers, and it seems the same few hundred are generating alpha. What was it like back in when you launched Omega, Well, there was less competition. I'm not sure what the exact number of hedge funds were, but one of the statistics that strikes me is about a decade ago to today, the number of publicly traded companies are down by about because it merges consolidations going private.

In that same period, hedge funds are have gone up by fourfold. So you know, a number of companies down, number of competitors looking for alpha up fourfold. So you know it's difficult. But I never went into the hedge from business to make a lot of money. I was a very happy partner of Goldman Sachs. I was I think at the time, fifth high percentage partner of the firm.

The firm was doing well. I loved what I did for a living, but I wanted to start a hedge fund as a way of code investing with my investors respective investors. And the firm at that time wasn't ready to have a hedge fund because they were they have vision in their mind which was incorrect in my opinion, that I would be short some investment banking client at the firm. The client would find out, find out and they'd have hell to pay. Um. The fact of the matter is I'm a long term investor and uh and

that had the problem. And the firm is really the views of maturated because I think they have a lot of hedge funds on the premises. Now, in fact, there has been a fairly steady stream of people departing Goldman Sachs, but retaining the relationship with Goldman as a prime broker for for that hedge fund. What was the big change? You know, you when you left Goldman, you had previously said they were they were pretty supportive of everything you do.

You know, how did they manage to mature their views on this? Well, just a passage of time, you know, Uh, if you go back to ancient history. Really a decade before I left, I was telling Goldman they were they were making a very big mistake by not being an asset management. And the senior partners at the time said, you don't get it. Lead. We're of the view that brokers should do brokerage, money manage and do money management. Don't compete with your customer. And I al would say,

then wake up, smell the roses. Look at they have Merrill Lynchs in management. You have Webster, which the division a kid at Peabody CSFPSI management. Everybody was in the business except one firm who they viewed as their arts rival. In trading, there were Solomon Brothers and one day, Solomon announced that Bob Solomon Jr. Who's a good man, was leaving the research department to start Solomon Brothers Asset Management, at which point the Steve Friedman and Barb Brubin collb

me and said, you know you were right. We made a mistake. We should go into the business. Would you leave research and start asset management and build us a business like you built us in research. For the record, not blowing my own horn, but just factually, when I took over Golden Research and D and I guess there was seventy five seventy four road unranked, and when I left the research department, we were number one. I I number one in Greenwich Research, number one in financial world.

I also happened to be the lead strategist, and I was number one for nine straight years in strategy. So I was ready for new challenge. And I accepted their invitation and started Goldmen's Access in Management. And frankly, about a year after I started, I realized I had made a mistake. The firm is a great firm, and they understood assets in the management times fee equal revenue, and they were interested in me building a big business. I

was really focused on investment performance. I wanted to co invest with the investors and build a track record. And it became obvious to me that, you know, they wanted me on the road innovating new products, raising more money, and I wanted to manage the money. You know. I was a guy that discovered Henry Singleton of Teldine in Wall Street and made a big bet on him and proved to be correct. And so I went to them and said, look, you know, I'd like to start a

hedge fund as part of the asset management business. And uh, they originally said yes, and then they changed their mind, and they changed your mind again. All this is nuances. They had a sponsored a fund called the Water Street Recovery Fund, which was a vulture fund. They would buy up the stress debt from the fault of the issuers and reorganized them. And that created some consternation from the

high yeld clients of the firm. They were selling them bonds which they didn't know the firm was intending to restructure the companies, and so they had a lot of adverse biblicity. John Weinberg, bless him, Uh, it was impressed by the negative, you know feedback, and went in and closed the fund down and returned all the money. And they came back to me and they said, you know, forget about We're not going to go for the frying pan to the fire. No hedge fund will put you

on the executive committee and you run g Sam. It's a business manager, not as a money manager. You couldn't be a money manager because you come into contact and a lot of confidence information if you're on the executive committee. And I told him my wife. I went home, what a boat. My wife came up with a great line. She said, you know how old you're gonna be and how rich you're gonna before you do what you want to do. So I went back. I said, listen, that's

been a great place to me, Goldman. I really want to manage money. Uh and uh basically, UM, you know, I'll stay as long as you want me to stay, but I would like to basically ultimately. And I stayed for a year and consulted for a year, and it was a great place. I grew up at Goldman, and I have great, great feelings about Goldman. So walk us through what your process was like at Omega or is still like it Omega When you're trying to make you still we're still in business and Omega and uh, I'll

run it the same way. I like to have a lot of arrows in my quiver. You know, it's very hard to take fifteen off the top and beat the market, okay, and so I like to have a lot of different strategies that I could pursue and um. Basically, we try to make money for the investors in five different ways. First, stocks or high risk financial assets. Short term bonds in cash are low risk financial assets. And we spent a lot of times is Steve Ian who are my partner,

we've been working together for over forty years. A terrific guy. Terrific guy, and we spent a lot of time studying the economy, the FED valuation and trying to figure out is the market undervalued going up, overvalue going down, It could be fully valued going up, etcetera. Because that de termines our exposure to risk assets. Number two, all the studies I've read on portfolio returns say more important being the right individual stock in anyone years also being the

right asset class. So we spent a lot of time looking at returns in fixed incomeverse equities and fixed income we cover the gamut where government bonds, high grade, industrial bonds, high yield bonds, structured credit, and we're trying to look for the store hat in the winter. What's the mispriced asset? Okay? The third thing we do we shually have bread and butt of business, was right? Spend most of my time is UNDERVAD stocks and alongside uh not a successful We

spend time looking forward a stocks in short side. And then we do a certain amount of macro trading where we'll basically go longer, shorter, currency, longer, shorter commodity, longer short and index away from the SMP five hundred, and we risk about two percent of capital in the macro area to make it an incremental five or six percent a year. So I would bill Omega saying we're an equity oriented hetche fhow with a macro capability. So let's let me put some numbers, some flesh on the bones.

You return twelve point six percent a year net of fees versus nine point six percent for the SMP five hundred, about a third better than the broad index did. What do you think is the single biggest contributor to that out performance? Well, you know, uh, number one with the records. Okay, there are better records around, but you know you've got address for risk. We've done it, maybe set long over twenty six years, twenty six years, and I said, we

were disciplined. You know, we're we're value oriented. So as I said before, we figured trying to figure out the market. We've got the market right a lot of the time. And then second we really look at individual stocks and my benchmark and I look at the SP five hundred and what is that represent Most people don't even know what the recup five represents an index of five companies that are growing about five percent a year that have a dive it in the yield of about one that

have debt about the capital structure. I think I've mentioned growing about five six percent a year. And for that statistical compilation, you're paying about eighteen times earnings. So we're looking for more growth. More earning is more asset value. There, they're training around three times book value for a lower price, and that's what we do. So we just looking for value. And generally speaking, if you correctly identify value, that's one

of the big protectors of your downside. If you're buying something as a reasonably cheap to begin with margin of safety. Let's talk a little bit about something we discussed the last time you were on and we had a kind of dance around it because it was still um an open live issue. Uh, you had a run in with the SEC. Tell us a little bit about that. What was it like when you first learned uh they were looking into Omega and how did it affect your your trader.

Let me just say this, I entered into what's called and no admit and no deny agreement. So I don't admit I did anything right or wrong whatever the hell. But between last time you were here, you were pretty adamant you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. Yeah, but like I said, I'll repeat, there's a sort to legally is below no no deny UM. I totally did not appreciate the power of the SEC, their abusive nature, UM, and

the problems with the system where they served me. There was no broad escale investigation to also to trade and new was investigation to trade on one company and Uh, basically we told them when we received the subpoena that withdraw the subpoena. And I guess I want to make the point every step along the way where they had the chance to uprate in in a proper manner, in my opinion, proper matner. They basically rejected it. They tried,

you aren't adversarial, you're very cooperative. Try to get them to sit down. Let me explain this to you. This is really very simple. Every step on the way they rejected it like they wanted to inflict maximum damage. We stay succeeded in doing so. We get to subpoena and I tell my lawyers, tell them, withdraw the subpoena. I'll meet with you. I'll answer all your questions, and if you don't like the answers, you can reinstate the subpoena and you have nothing to lose. They refuse, They say,

respond to subpoena. So I spent a couple of million dollars or more. Respond to the subpoena and uh. Basically they then and my lawyer, you know, my lawyer basically tells me, and you're ruining the man's business. We've studied

the trading. There's no inside trading here. It's unfair. And they went down to Washington and basically the guy at the AC says, well, if Mr Coopman wants to settle, will take a five year bar from the industry, the mission of guilt, effective admission of guilt, and ten million I'll fine. And I told my lawyer's look, you tell him whatever somebody from Harvard and Yale Law school tells them. I grew up in the South Bronx and you can give them the Rockefellow salute for me if your viewers

know what that is. But when Nelson Rockefellow spoke, but the inmates of Attica and they shoutowed him down, and he got frustrated and he gave him the index finger or the adjacent to thee in the middle of the middle of thing, whatever that's called. And um, five months later, after my business was substantially damaged, the SEC, with no new information, comes back and says, okay, no admission of guilt. No no, it's called no admit, no deny, no time out,

and give us four point nine million dollars. As lawyers say, congratulations, you win, And I said, what did I win? We don't have losing party pays in America. The government has sovereign immunity. I can't sue them. Uh, And they basically are using taxpay money to fund their piccadillos um. And so my advocacy after I close up Omega and become a family office is we should have a losing party pays system because what happens, so it shouldn't be a speculative.

Let's just throw it against the walls lawyers. Again, I'm attributing this to my lawyers, which are factual in a court of law. You know, I don't want any problems with the sec. My lawyers say, congratulations, you won. Okay. If we go to trial, we think nine percent probably you're gonna win, but of course you let me finish, not even probably gonna win. Okay. The temper cent chance you don't win has nothing to do with the case is because you're rich. It's because you run a hedge

fund and because you're a former Goldman Sachs partner. The juries don't like guys like you. I said, but listen, I'm sending five minute kids to college in Newark, New Jersey. They don't care. They don't like guys like you. If we go to trial, the change you win, we estimated, they'll tie you up for two years with appeals, and of course you twenty million dollars give him the four point one million. It's over, so I gave him the four point a million. I'm still conflicted about that decision

to even today, because it just it bothers me. The system is wrong. The system is wrong. I don't want to go through all the facts of the case because that could be an hour and it will come to light when I write the book. So and you should write the book. But let me ask you this question. If a young colleague came to you, a person who's not running a few billion dollars, running a small hedge fund, and and he's screwed, Well, if he were to say

to you, Lee, I have this. I think I'm completely innocent, and here's the deal. It'll cost me a couple of million dollars to make it go away. But I could fight and win. It will cost me ten times that. What should I do? What? What would your advice to them? Well? Number, when does he have the twenty million? Maybe probably not if he's a young guy and he's starting at he doesn't have the money. I spent close to fifty years developing my putation. God has been very good to me.

I've worked very hard, but you know, I know people that work hard that don't have the money. I've made the decent sum of money I've had, been taken a giving pledge with the Warren Buffin Bill Gates. But to me, my reputation was paramount and I would spend whatever I had to spend to defend myself. But if you take a thirty year old kid or twenty five year old kids, he can't do it to the odds or I will fold, will give them the money, and that's what they bet on.

I will tell you a little anecdotal story about five months ago an account major counting firm. That's how Price Waterhouse had a seminar in Palm Beach. I live in Boca Retard in six half months a year and basically the guest speaker was Mary Joe White, and I wanted to go because she was ahead of the SEC at the time my case was brought. And I walk over to her and I said, you're lucky, Ima, gentleman. I'm not going to attack in public, but I told who I was. You knew exactly who I was when I

told her. Okay, says, here's a sealed envelope. In the envelope is a question. If you answer the question, I will give a hundred thousand dollars your favorite charity. She's I can't wait. What's the question? I said? When you originally and your staff originally after me, basically you asked for five of your bar admission of guilt at ten

million dollar fine, and I refused. Five months later, with no new information on your part, your staff came back and said, okay, no admission of guilt meaning and no admit, no deny, no time out, and give us four point nine million. What did you learn between your first ask which destroyed the business because was totally unacceptable, and your second asked, which was if you first ask, I would have accepted to get rid of you. And a response

was innocent people. She didn't say it was innocent. Innocent people often settled because the litigation cost and time demands are so much greater than the settlement course. Now I submit, that's a disgraceful situation. And what happens with these regulators is they bring a case with the hope of bringing down a high profile guy or gal, taking that accomplishment and getting themselves a job in the private actor as

defense attorneys. When I told my attorney what MS White said, they say it's not a surprise because that the sec she was acting like a prosecutor. ASH is in private practice. He's talking like a defense attorney. And I don't think the way it should be. I think they should have sat down with me, understand all the answers. I could give a whole bunch of things. My son I was half his capital runs around a hedge fund. He was short the stock to day of the announcement, not long

he lost money with stock. I didn't buy any stock myself. It was only brought in two accounts. But I don't want to. We could spend now and a half and all the facts. Huh. Quite fascinating. But it's a sad situation and hopefully there'll be some remediation make it better for the next person. But to specifically answer your question and for your youngster, and don't have a lot of money,

you're out of business. Unbelievable. Let's talk a little bit about where we are in the state of the economy today. Um as a value investor, what do you think about markets here? I think the SMP five is recently adequately valued, fair value, fair value, fully value, fair value. Say what you want, um My, overriding theme is we're heading towards normalization. For the last seven or eight years, and even now to some degree, we're in that abnormal environment. What do

I mean by that? There's nine trillion dollars of sovereign debt around the world that carries a negative interest rate, whereas you've got to pay the government to carry their debt. It's crazy, okay, and so we're heading to normalization. To me, normalization is the labor force grows about a half a one percent peratum. The productivity the labor force grows about one half percent peratum, so that's real growth about two Right now, we're growing, you know, three to four um.

The inflation rate maybe two percent, So nominal GDP grows at four percent two percent real two percent inflation uh and in four percent nominally growing world, the Fed funds rate or to be two and after three, which will take you a year to get there. Currently I think one in three quarters or two uh, and the tenure government order to be close to four currently hovering under three. In that world, the SMP multiple should be I think

about seventeen times, so seventeen times this year. We're using an estimate of a fifty eight six UM and seventeen times next years one sight, which by estimate at the preliminarily now is six and we're hovering in those areas. So I think the market is addequally valued. On the other hand, the conditions for a big decline are not present. The words beer markets don't emerge have a maculate conception. They come about for fundamental reasons, generally speaking. Number one,

the stock market smells an oncoming recession. If anything, the economic data reads exempt opposite exactly. The second reason we have a beer market is the central bank gets to the market and the through aggressive tightening, turns it down down, and they've been moving very slow. I think that behind the eight bowl myself. Third is invested exuberance. And I would say if you look at the flow of funds out of ecuity funds into fixed income product, you know

there's a few signs of exuberance. You know, an Amazon which could be justified by the fundamental growth, or a Tesla, which I don't think is justified. But you know by Lodge, you know the great line I only wish I coined it. I give him great credit all the time. Is John Templeton's beaux markets are born and pessimism, They grow on skepticism, they mature and optimism, and they die in euphoria. We clearly have optimism bio lodge, but we do not have

any signs of euphoria. And the fourth thing is some kind of signal cause of a market is some significant geopolitical event which you can forecast. And certainly a lot going on in the world. It's very clear that you know what's going on with Russia and the Putin and Trump, etcetera. It's very complex. Let's let's talk about that a little bit. We have North time, I got in trouble talking about politics. Well,

but let's talk about global events and politics. North Korea or I am rand has been saber rattling at and with both countries. Are either of those a legitimate threat to the market, Well, if something went wrong, I mean I think that the president, I think he's been the right track with North Korea, and I think he was on the right track with Iran. I think I never worried much about North Korea. The only concerned with North Korea is if rocketman launched a rocket that they lost

control over and landing in the wrong place. But as long as the rockets land in the water and we're fine. Um, But no, these are potential risk. But you know, no one knew about the missile crisis, Kennedy Steel confrontation. You know, there are things in the geopolitical world that can go wrong. I mean, clear, we have a usual president um um, and I think we'll get a referendum about his policies

in November, and it's not clear what to happened. And I myself, I'm conflicted and all honestly, what what about issues of tariffs and trade? Tariffs are wrong? And I think the market believes that they're wrong, and the market has been up until now generally complacent because what's happened is he's generally backed off on controversial policies and ultimately cave didn't listen to his advisers. You know, during the campaign he was very negative on NATO. Uh, Madness told

him the NATO was important. So all of a sudden, NATO is important, you know, although there's been a lot of Joe boning about NATO and the less more on the expense side, the equabil carrying of expenses. Uh, what worries me, to be honest with you, is more the fiscal policy we're pursuing in the sense that you know, the unemployment rate is near full employment, um, and UH, the deficitor is not coming down. So I think that there's a good chance that not only is it not

coming down, it's been exting. I think it's a good which is one of the reasons I decided to become a family office. You know, I lost money uh in two thousand eight personally, and I did a poor drop from my investors in inwo eight. I lost a lot of money. Market was down thirty seven percent that year. Less in the market, but I lost a lot of money. And the truth be known, I was less concerned about my own money, but very concerned about my investors money.

I live a very simple life. I've been married fifty four years to say woman she toured for thirty five years. I don't collect art. Uh. Last time we spoke, you know, my my had one of the mobilits uh sixteen years old. I know I lectured you to go get a new car with blue Did you succeeded? I got a new car for the safety features, But I still have a two thousand two World Won't Bible that I drive and I like um. And so you know, I live a very simple life and I have no borrowings or own

anybody a penny. But I cared about my investors because I let them down. And so uh, I am concerned about fiscal policy. The deficits should be coming down, not going up. The President is very very much, you know, promoting things for his base. Um. And if we're gonna buy American and you disregard the law of comparative advantage and we put on these tariffs, um, and the labor markets are tightening, and the price of what is growing up.

I would think common sense suggests there should be an inflation surprise which will affect the FED, and they'll affect the market a little bit like what's happening with the Fang stocks. Now. You know, Facebook missed the number that decline and uses an all of a sudden, everybody thinks the world has come to an end for Fang, which I doubt no. But you're totally talking my book. With inflation. You look at this aluminum and steel tariffs and the

automobile tariffs. That could be extreme wrong footed policy. But I think he's not wrong in saying we have to have a fairy game, and so maybe there'll be a compromise that will work out. You know, we we can't sell him short. He's the president country, and therefore he used the pilot of the airplane, and I always root for the pilot. I want to do well. I'm troubled

about the environment. You know. I was privileged to have dinner with him in the White House in July of last year, and when it was only ten people in the president we sat down at the dinner table. He could have been more gracious. He said to me leave, you had great reputation. Do you think your open letter of President Obama created your SEC problems? So somebody had briefed him, and I told him. A lot of people say that I have no idea if it did or

it didn't. All I know is that they basically ruined my business, and they did not conduct themselves in a proper manner. Uh Still, they refused to answer the question what did you learn between you first ask and your second ask? I sent two very polite letters to uh Jay Clayton, the head of the SEC. He did not respond to him. And when I encountered the Mary Joe White at this seminar and I promised a hunt a thousand dollars her favorite charity if she answered the question.

She demured, and answer the question, I'd like to know what'd you learn? I don't. I don't think you can get an answer to that question, I think anytime soon. So if you so, currently you sound like you're fairly constructive about the market. Are you more or less fully invested or or what? Pretty much? But I have a unique problem now in the sense that by becoming a family office, about forty of the money is that client money and have a legal obligation to return their money.

So between now and the end of the year, I'm not buying anything, basically selling uh and hopefully intelligently, and hopefully the market is higher at the end of the year than it is now. And I so I had a good prices and then I revert to a family office and I get the SMP five off my back. So hypothetically, let's say your views change. You mentioned nine. Let's say it's two years hence and you you're saying, hey,

I really smell something bad coming. How would you adjust your portfolio then, and how would that be different from when you were running client money? Uh? It wouldn't be the only different, and it's a significant difference is I would be willing to buy buy into more liquid things that I felt the value. We're outstanding because I didn't have to worry about quarterly redemptions, so you could hold it longer term. You could be early and not worry

about screaming clients exactly. You don't have that bugaboo of running after the SMP and outperforming, and I would try to invest more for long term capital gains. I'm not sure what year it was, but thirty odd years ago Warren Buffett had in his annual report an example of a money manager who every year brought that year's hot stock, made fift sold it, and invested next year's hot stock, compared to basically buying a fifteen percent grow of that

compound in the fifteen percent every year. After thirty or forty years, you have thousands of times more money after texts. And that's what I constantly say. You know, Warren is a phenomenon in his own right, but people thought give adequate credit his record half attacks is truly unbelievable. You're not giving up thirty in short term capital gains and then letting that compound over decades. I would hope that, say seventy what I do would be oriented towards long

term capital gains twenty five percent. Maybe short term where we think we have a d variant perception, etcetera. But I'd like to invest for long term capital gains. And uh, I'm gonna have a different fee structure um, and I'm a different approach the way I've run my fund, which is why my people turnover has been very nominal even during this sec period. Very nominal is I tell the people, if you make money for the investors, you get paid no matter what. So I accepted a big netting risk.

There was any one year, you know, if like energies had a favor energy guy might lose money if you didn't get it right, and you are the people might make money. So I paid the people that made money. I didn't get a check back from the guy or the gall that lost money. So I had a big netting risk. And in the new business I said, I'm not gonna accept the netting risk. The families gonna put ten percent of the profits above three percent in the pool to be shared by the twelve or fifteen people.

And so We're all going to be in this together. Can you stick around a little bit. I have some more questions for it. Absolutely, we've been speaking with Lee Cooperman of Omega Advisors. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and come back for the podcast extras. Will we keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all things value investing. We love your comments, feedback, end suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. You could

follow my daily column on Bloomberg dot com. Check me out on Twitter at rit Halts. I'm Barry Hults. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast leaf. Thank you some for doing this again. I've been looking forward to um having a conversation. I still have a ton more questions. I didn't get to talk about the Giving Pledge or your philanthropy, and you told a wonderful story. I don't even believe it was

on on air the last time. The Giving Pledge is warm buffing and Bill gates the commitment from people to give away the majority of their assets technically half half. Well, I've told I'm gonna say sold Warren. You know I was on TV a competitive network the other day, and Warren sent me a very nice uh email which he gave the fellow at the other network up at the approval to read, and I'm trying to pump around and find it. He says, highly. You were terrific on X

y Z. You can say CNBC today. I think I know exactly emotions you experienced the reason you followed, since I have done somewhat the same thing in nineteen nine. The one thing I can guarantee you is that your parents would be extraordinarily pleased at the course you're followed, and I're going to continue following life. Example can be powerful at the giving pledge. We have disproportionately a low number of people who have made their fortunes in Wall Street.

You can be a powerful influence in having them rethink their priorities. Hope you make use of the moral podium on which you stand. I agree with you that I didn't ask for enough when I called on you to pledge, and I'm glad you're correcting him form ere. I told my plan to give it all the way you also you also told the charming story about dinner with Buffett Gates and a bunch of other partists, Mike Bloomberg, Reenforcement,

who's deceased, John Poulson. I was the poorest guy that that's the joke you said, is the poorest guy at the table. I've lived the American dream. Who picked up the bill for that? The mayor? It wasn't you in the philothropic, it was in philanthropical officers. I mean, he just terrific guy. And uh, you know, basically, look, I figured out a long time ago there's only four things you can do with money. When you think about it. The first thing you can do with money is you

spend it on yourself. I mentioned before my wife has worked for thirty or five years as an educator. I don't collect art. I worked very long hours by design, and so I'm not a consumer. I'm not a closed horse for obvious reasons that people they can't see me. I'm on radio. But you know I'm a chubby guy. So you know, um, I can't consume what I used to make. I don't make any money anymore because the SEC took care cooking my business. So the first thing you can do is spend it on yourself. I'm not

a consumer. I happen to think that material possessions bring with them aggravation. So I like that. I think less is more. That's just my own view. Second think you do is you give you money to kids. But I think anybody who gives, if they have a lot of money, give all your money to kids is wrong, which is that deprives them of self achievement for sure. And you know, you look at what happens to lottery winners and sports.

So I want to leave not not how kids get some money, but not not nothing remotely approaching what I have. The third thing you can do is you give it the government, but only a full gives the government money you don't have to give him. And the four thing is you recycle it back in society. And that's what

my family and I have decided to do. My signature have a lot of things I'm doing, but my signature event is called Kopman College scholars If you live in s s Canton, New Jersey, UM and you show the initiative, enroll in a free three week pre college program designed by Frankly and Marshall. You're academically qualified. I'm big on equal opportunities, not on equal outcomes, and you have financial need I'm met by government. I give these kids up at ten thousand dollars a year for six years to

get college degree. And it's life changing, very emotional. But no, you've been doing this every year for I'm in my fourth year. I put twenty five million dollars in a fund and there's enough money to send five minty kids to college. I told the guys at the sec for what your cost to me, I could go to kids. They didn't see him to the care and so this is life changing and it's impoor to me. Uh. It's called Cookman College College. And I have other things I

do in the Jewish world. I've done a lot talking about Birthright. Weren't you in earl Un fund where I send a bunch of busloads kids to Birthright Israel. I subsidized Jewish summit camps. My granddaughter and my daughter in law, Jody Uh preside over request from mits for money Uh to for Barbot Mitzpah's. I did a major wing the same bottom as medical center, which I got more than I bargained for, and I said, this is a dedication.

They asked you for number. I gave the number, and when I looked with a built was fabulous, like a hundred forty yard private rooms, fifty neon NATO centers. My name is on the building. I get more credit than I deserve. I feel blessed to be in the position to give it away. And it wasn't all that way, as I set to Warren Buffing, Bill Gates, and Mike Bloomberg on the fist. First generation born in America, my family, first generation go to college upen to Columbia. All my

education was public school base. I went public grade school in the Bronx. I went to public high school in the Bronx. I followed the advice of Harley Schoolly, I went west and I went to college in the West Bronx Hunter Colleges and now called called Lieman College. And then I had a short sixteen months stay at Columbia, which opened the door to Goldman Sachs. Because Goldman probably hiring at someone out of a mold, wouldn't hire out of city university and the NBA. Columbia got me in

the goldment. I started my career. I mean, I got my MBA on January thirty one, sixty seven. Had a six month old kid who was now approaching fifty one, I had no money in the bank. Uh and um I had a student loan to repay. So by definition how negative net worth? So I didn't I couldn't take the next vacation at that time. I think they were going to Mexico. Now they go to Australia. And I

went to work at Goldman the very next day. And I started my career with negative net worth, made a lot of money and taking the giving pledge with Buffett and you know, I mean I liked the ark of my life. I feel good about things and uh, but I do a lot of people that worked hard, it didn't make it, you know. So I was lucky. I went to a firm whose name didn't change. You know, you could have gone a good body, could have gone the Kidney Peabody. You could have gone the Coon Lobe.

You could have gone to you know, um Low Roads. Uh. Instead I went to go home in Sacks. Uh. That was a good decision. So I deserved some credit for making a good decision because it wasn't the best financial offer. I had. The best decision I made in my life was I went to down school. Okay, back in the sixties, if you finished your major minor in college in three years. They will allow you to count your first year of dental medical school towards a fourth year of college in

a separate degree. So I toiled very hard in the summer of nineteen sixty three and took physical chemistry at the University of Pennsylvania. It was my major was chemistry. My mind was math and physics. And I I enrolled in August of sixty three in the University of Pennsylvania Down School. And after eight days I developed a concern that I was pushing myself in the direction that I wasn't fully committed to. And it is traumatic. My father may rest in peace, was pissed this hell at me

because you know, I paid tuition for a year. I paid room and board. Uh. The dean of the Down School put me on a guilt trip. He said, you took the hunting first applicant. You deprived him of the dental education. My dad was going around talking about my son the dentist, and uh, it was very traumatic. Was the best decision I've ever made. And so you know, life is partly making good decisions both so a lot

of luck. Let's talk a little bit about Columbia where you got your m b A. You had some fairly interesting colleagues that you hung out with them. Yeah. Well, two of my best friends to this day I met at Columbia, married Ga Belly and Art Sandberg. And what Columbia did is it gave me the language of business with accounting, operations, research statistics, what have you. Uh. It gave me three initials after the end of my name

that I kept for the rest of my life. And it gave me a bunch of relationships that went out into the business world where you could work in the future with relationships. I made friendships that I kept for the rest of my life. And that's what life is all about. That that must have been some car communing back and forth to time he did it. I may find his recommendation record lectures. Mario and I and Art had the same stockbroker. I think he's I'm sure he's

deceased high fishman. Uh and Mary and I used to push each other, jostly each other to get into the one phone booth at the business school to broker to put in order in But it was good. You know, I love Mario because you know, the only thing has changed about Mary in the last fifty years of the color of his hair. He has the same physique he had when he was in Busines school. I wish I could say the same. He's a good friend, terrific human being, and his heads, his hairs gone from red to white,

but he has it all. So so you mentioned, um, some of the philanthropy you've done with sending some kids from from New Jersey to college. Um, you talked about one of the buildings you endowed in one of the hospitals, and bottom, let's talk a little about Columbia because you set up multiple scholarships. What else have you done with Colombia and how do you see that manifest given him? Uh, I think come to over thirty million dollars towards the

building and data share their economics and finance. I've given a similar amount of money to Hunt the college. You know, the truth of the matter is Columbia is more aggressive and asking. They're both worthy causes when you think about it. I I went to Hunter for twenty four dollars a semester. I met my wife my sophomore year and we married fifty four years. So somebody gave your wife in a top education for virtually nothing yo, and today I think

the tuitions about six thousand dollars a year. So I gave them aid a financial aid uh at thet at Hunter and they needed some help in a library, So in data library. My name is in a lot of things, but that's secondary to me. I don't care about the highest form of giving his anonymous. So whoever is in Hunter College alumni office, you should reach out to leave. They have to have to have of giving up a

thirty million dollars. They tapped me out. I give and I give Jennifer rab the president Hunter, all the credit. When she called me up, I said, you've got a problem in dealing with me. Whis what's the problem? I said, I never stepped foot and Hunt the college. I went to Hunter in the Bronx. Hunter in the Bronx today

is called Lehman College. Is at the end of the Korean War, Hunter and the Bronx when co ed because it was inadequate capacity, and the colleges who absorbed the returning g i's and so I went to Hunter in the Bronx and she was very sharp. He says, pull out your diploma and look at your diploma. What did you say to college. So she got me for a lot of money that I'm happy to be in a

position to do it. My granddaughter, one of my my youngest granddaughter says, Pop, everybody who asked you for money, you give them money. I said, money is like the new are supposed to be spread around. Well, we'll speak after the interview, will have a conversation about that. Also, UM, let's let's jump to some of my favorite, uh, some of my favorite questions. I'm just looking through all my notes to see what I missed, because we bounced all

over before. There was one question I had circled to have I had wanted to ask you. Oh, here it is so you and and certainly Columbia must have influenced you this way. You're you're known as a value investor, UM and and uh some of the greatest value investors of all time have come out of Columbia Business School. The past couple of years, value has been lagging growth dramatically,

As it often does. Over long periods of time, value beats growth, but over short periods of time sometime growth dominates. How do you deal with that when you're running a fund and you have quarterly UM letters to put out and quarterly responses a client's when what you know works over the long term is lagging over the short time. I would just point what is value? What is growth? My largest position my fund is Google. You know, I would say Google is growth. It's not growth, but it's

not an expensive value Google. When I bought it was on the twenty times earnings, you know, growing at twenty percent a year with an unbelievably fortress balance sheet, tremendous company. You know, Um, that's not that's not it's growth, but it's value at a reasonable price. Warren Buffett were the great value investors of all time. Is correctly sort of value in Apple. So uh, you know, Uh, I try to resist labels. I would I want to be value oriented, but it could be a growth company. Uh. And I

take him each one at a time. And the way I run the firm is, you know, the analysts proposed and I dispose, so a position that I have a decent sized position. Something called a MC Media. Uh. Simbos a m c XUM cable channel and movie. They owned The Walking Dead and things like that, and the Dolan family owned seventeen percent of the economic interests of the company.

And because own cable Vision and oh they sign what about MSG and the ins is they still own that's the Jimmy Dolan, that's his prize son the Sun. So anyway, getting back to a m c X so, seventhea Be said, the economic interest is owned by the Dolan family because it's an A stock and the BE stock, and they have the BE stock. They own sixty to the vote. So anybody owns sixty percent of the vote is not doing things to entrench themselves. What they do is they

with a seventy percent economic interests. They're doing what they think is economically sensible. Well, if you look the last two years, every quarter, like Clockwort, they brought back fifty to hard million dollars to stock. Every quarter they paid between the like very high forties up until sixty. I pay attention to that, and when a sent owners buying

significant amount of stock. Now I happened to think the industry is consolidating and I wouldn't be surprised if somebody brought this company and uh, the private market value probably approaches eighty another one, so I would call that value. But they're growing the business. The earnings in the last two quarters substantial exceeded Wall Street expectations. Another one that just had a good quarter. But I wouldn't qute a growth company. We'll grow in line with GDP. The United Airlines.

United air Lines is brought back over the stock in the last three years. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, market straining and seventeen times earnings and this thing is training it out eight eight and a half times earnings with a big buy back in place, and they're on record. Is I think we're talking eight ten, twelve and for all in tents of purposes, they're agreeing with that progression. And the twelve dollars we're using assumes very modest buy back.

Giving the paste to buying back. They probably earned over thirteen um. And the stock is uh, you know, and think the last night check was about eight dollars. So you don't limit yourself to anyone sector. We're very eclectic. We're very eclectic. It's growth in a reasonable price, and I have no problem with growth as long as the price. You know, I if I listened to my analysts, I would be making more money. He's been very bullish on Amazon,

but you know, the multiple scares me off. There was a very unique special company had a great quarter this year, very good quarter. We own Amazon, we owned a Facebook, smaller amount, we owned Adobe, we own a Google. Um so let's let's talk about Facebook for a second. That they got and I want to get your thoughts on how a manager and a trader response to something like their quarter that their numbers were disappointing their subscription. Um. I reduced a position response to the number, to be

honest with you, but I had after the fact. After the fact, my course is still well below the card market. I have an extra incentive, Like I said, I gotta return a bunch of money to the investors. And if something not gonna work for a while, I might be more prone to selling. So you you have a short term hard stop at the end of the year. But I have to give back cast In two thousand and eight, when a lot of hedge ones were closing up in

gating Capital. Most people won't remember this, my picture was in the newspaper New York Times, and under the cap my picture was a caption, they have to load me into my grade before I would gate capital, not on a high water more. So, you know, I have to give the back, not in kind. They're gonna get back on her, but set in cash, and I'm gonna position to do it because a big chunk of my manage the GP capital. But I have to make a lot of sales. So let's assume it wasn't you didn't have

the hard stop coming December thirty one. As a trader and a manager, how do you look at a stock that takes a haircut? Do you think the fund Is this a question of the fundamental story changing or just from a risk management perspective, you're gonna take a little off the table. From a risk managing perspective, I took something off the table. My guess is it's a cup

that they have virtual future growth ahead of them. But you know, in the world of technology, somebody's innovation and somebody's obsolescence, and there was a decline and a number of users, and you know, maybe there's something changing. So you control risk by diversification, You control risk by position size, You control risk by the financial characteristics of the company

you own. In the words your own fifty multiple stocks, the own twelve multiple stocks, And I would say that uh an amc X, which I sited, or United Airlines when you have big buy backs and large amounts of free catch flow and way below market multiples. You have an element of protection, and that's where I feel most comfortable. So I'd have concentrated bets, but in things that I perceived to be less risk here. So let's let's jump

to some of my favorite questions. And I know only have you for a finite amount of time today, um tell us the most important thing that most people don't know about you. I think my life has been an open book. Let me just tell you what I think the most important thing I tell the kids, and I meet with a lot of kids, and I tell them the one thing it's most important, no matter how rich you are, the one luxury you cannot afford his arrogance. Be nice to people, be a good friend, be available.

That's that's that's what I tell them. So I think people know about me. So you mentioned some of your early mentors in passing. Who were the people who helped form your your career and your worldview? It's hard to select one? Give us multiple Yeah. Well, I have an enormous respect for ken Land. I've said this publicly previously. I learned a lot from Bob Manusian, who was the head of trading at Goldman and my trading instincts emanating part from his wisdom. Very smart man. He's I think

he's probably eighty something now. I speak with him frequently. On the industrial side. I visited twice a year for twenty five years with Dr Henry Singleton, the founder, and the man was in a class by himself, absolutely brilliant. Never got the recognition he deserved. Uh, and I tried to change that. I wrote a case study for Harvard on him. And there was a professor and a junct professor who wrote a book called The Outsiders and featured Singleton,

which brought recognition to him. John Whitehead, John Weinberg, but co senior partners of Goldman, a bunch of people, my parents. You know. My father was a good influence on me. So that's who the folks who helped form and shape your career, who impacted the way you think about investing? What what Roger Murray, who was the professor and security analysis he's long gone unfortunately, Um just reading and what have you. But I said, Roger Murray was my professor

and security analysis. Unique guy. He was an adjunct professor. He also ran college or time and equities fund and very very very good man. When when you say reading, you read more financial literature than anybody. You know, you're not necessarily sitting down with books, but you're looking at annual reports and that sort of stuff. Yes, yeah, you know, and I'm reading all the reports of my analysts. Keep me very busy. I don't read a lot of novels.

I did read two good books I enjoyed recently, well one again they're financially oriented that I read. Uh. I love Capitalism by Ken Langne and I love Capitalism by It's a great read and it was very meaningful to me because you know, Ken's dad was a plumber in Long Island. My dad was a plumber you mentioned in the Bronx, and he had a paragraph from the book where he said his older brother typed invoices for his

dad monthly on a Smith Corona typewriter. And I typed invoices along with my older brother on an underwood typewriter for my dad who was a plumber. In the Bronx, But you know, Kenn is self made, has not forgotten where he's come from, is extraordinarily generous and has a value system that I just totally relate to and he was to off a guy and uh, he said, two books. That's one I love, and the other one was Scott Watton's book. I enjoyed reading what's the name of that?

Something to do the Wolves of Wall Streets. Oh sure, absolutely, that sounds like a fun book, good book. So what really excites you right now? What do you excites me? Frankly is seeing my kids and my grandkids grow old purposely with purpose, and health with health. But on the business side, I get excited by finding something somebody doesn't see, making a bet and having Mr Market proved me right, if not for the greed which the money is all going going to go back to this system. But that's

what I do. I excited about finding things that people don't see and making a bet. And I just recently made a very large bet and an obscure company on time will tell whether it pays out, and I like like nobody owns it, nobody knows in about it. The second largest producer vanadium in the world, it's called Logo resource vanadium. Native vanadium is an alloy used in steel to strengthen the steel and the Chinese and mandated the

need for improvement the quality of the steel. Well, they've had some disasters and the construct big construction project that there's increase in demand for an eighty with an aim also was used in the grids to strengthen the grid. Okay, van at um a year ago was four dollars a pound. It's currently hovering between eighteen and nineteen a pound. And there's been a big explosion and their revues and their earnings.

And we have a consultant that we use who's an expert on vanadium, and he thinks the pricing going to the mid twenties. So they're gonna come to the stock price. I think the stock will probably worth three or four times were strady for but expeculative. You know, you're not dealing with a multi commodity company, dealing with one commodity but eight one mine. It's binary. Either it works or it doesn't. So far it's worked. I started at a forty cents and then as last I checked, there's two

dollars and a few pennies. This company, it's called Logo Resource is larger Resources. Well, forty cents is a good. Uh, Well, what happened? There was a hedge fund. I won't mention that was going out of business and then they would liquid aiding. And uh, a good friend brought it the opportunity to my attention, and my friend and I split the ten million share block equally. It was much too

small for Omega time the capital structure. That caught me with less than two million, and we bought the block at forty cents. And uh, it's not like two dollars and in some respects to better buy now than it was then because given the level of the price level of an adium, this will be a debt free company by the end of next year, and we'll probably generate over a billion dollars in cash if the vanadium price

stays here over the next couple of years. That's crazy and a little bit outside of your usual uh sweet spot. Yeah yeah, but you you like that. You like it for the for the thrill um and the and the profit potential. What changes are you looking forward to, um now that you're gonna be running the family office, absolute return manager. Maybe get into the gym to deal with

my weight. Sleep a little bit later. It's interesting when I'm dad in Florida, I see when I'm in Short Hills, New Jersey, I get in very early in the morning. Not because I want to get in at six forty in the morning, but the traffic. So I leave my house at five forty five. I walk in the office at six. In Florida, I had my battle with New York. They recognized my home office being legitimate. It is a real office. And I'm in my office in one minute.

So I saved two hours and nineteen minutes. But get there more than six months a year, past seven months. I love. Nothing to do with taxes. It's the commute that us me nuts. Nothing to do with taxes. But I saved two hours of nineteen minutes a day. And if I want to read research and read research. If I want to go to the gym, I go to the gym. I want to sleep a little bit later, sleep a little bit later. But you know I ken

Lan Going says it well. He imagines own money when he looks in them in the mirror in the morning. He knows who's to blame and who to credit. So this is it. It's gonna be my deal, and uh, I'm happy about it. I love my investors. Let me tell you, my investors are very, very loyal. The majority of the individuals were uh, you know, they stayed with me at a time when the sc was making accusations and they stayed with me. Most of the institutions pulled out.

They used fiduciaries that don't want to use common sense. You invite them in willingness to answer all your questions and they basically their own boil coming in. They just fire you. But whatever, that's the life. It is what it is, right, that's what it is. So tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from the experience. Well, my biggest mistake, uh was basically put a lot of money into the vouchers were as a bijon privatizing. And what's the mistake. I bet on an

employee that broke the law, you know. So I don't know what what I do differently, maybe not make the investment, but it was an employee. They was the most profitable guy that we had at the firm at the time. He was heads over heels of the investment and he basically was an unequivocal advocate for the investment. We met with the president of country who invited us in to

make the investment. We had done also a due diligence but I did not know is my employee was aware of wrongdoing which you didn't disclose, And so I don't know what you say. You do it all over again, But maybe I just say I wouldn't have invested in that country. And then again, you know amazing after were discovered there was a corrupt regime running the country. I get a letter from when government agency encouraged me to invest the ass a vision. It's like one department has

know what the other department is doing. World screwed up. So this is a question. I'm not sure how are you going to answer, or even if you can answer, other than say work, what do you do for fun? I walk with my older brother, have a very close relationship my brothers eight two. Um, I just said, I walk, and I read research, and I try to spend as much time with my grandkid as I can. I'm a

very simple guy, you know, not multidimensional. Uh. If if a millennial or a recent college graduate came up to you and and said they were I'm not sure what to do with their career, what sort of advice would you give them? I just have do not go into a field for money. You know a lot of people romanticize hedge funds. Go into a field where you have an aptitude and you have an interest. You know, Warren,

the different smart people have said it differently. Warren Buffers has got to work for people you admired, respect, tap, dance to work, and everyone will take care of itself. I agree with that. Henry Ford said, Uh, you know, don't think about money, you know, just do do what you love. Love what you do, You're bound to be successful. So find your gift in life and pursue that gift.

And that's kind of what I advocate. And our final question, what is it that you know about the world of investing today that you wish you knew forty plus years ago when you were first beginning. Uh, it's a good question. I have to think about that. When I don't have you a good answer, I know more today that I know forty years ago. I've learned if something is too good to be true, it's not true. I've learned when everybody is on the same side of the boat, it's wrong.

So you know, when everybody is talking about one stock and everybody's in that stock, generally something happens to go it was wrong and they're not right all the same time and the same thing when everybody in Wall Street is bullish and the same side of the boat be wary. So if our memory this is a memory. I didn't anticipate this question in twenty seventeen. At the beginning of the year. Uh, the average strategist had a year end objective of twenty three fifty, okay, And the year ended

it like twenty six fifty. You would think somebody would turn and conservative. Now everybody marked up their expectations. Everybody was bullish, okay, and then you had the market took off in January, which further entrenched to bullishness, and then all of a sudden you had the big sell off in February. The market, I've learned, will do whatever it has to do to embarrass the largest group of investors. So just keep your wits about you. Don't be cocky,

be humble, and be nice. Like I said, you know, basically, no matter how much money you have, the one luxury you cannot afford his arrogance. All that is quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Lee Cooperman of Omega Advisors and formerly of Goldman Sachs. If you enjoy this conversation. Be sure and look up an inch or down an inch on Apple, iTunes, Stitcher, overcast, Bloomberg dot com wherever finer podcasts are sold, and you could see any of

the other two hundred plus conversations we've had previously. We love your comments, feedback, end suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff that helps put together these conversations each week. Medina Parwana is my producer, Slash audio engineer. Taylor Riggs is our booker Slash producer. Michael Batnick is our head of research. I'm Barry Results. You're listening to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio