Interview With Saadia Madsbjerg: Masters in Business (Audio)

to the betterment of mankind. How's that for a broad subject? Anyway, If you're at all interested in philanthropy or how foundations operate, and what it's like to have to think about giving away hundreds of millions of dollars a year, I expect you will find this conversation to be quite fascinating. The

Rockefeller Foundation takes a decidedly off center approach. As the expression goes, they are not looking to give a man of fish as much as they are looking to find the economic choke point that is leading to whatever distress any given region is suffering and find ways to fix that on a permanent basis. Two so called teach the person to fish. Uh. They've spent a lot of time thinking about things like resilience and how cities and regions

can develop resiliency. Two ongoing threats, be they economic, terrorist, or even just threats um caused by the weather like Super so Sandy or Katrina all told, I found this to be quite a fascinating conversation, and if you are at all interested in all things philanthropy, I think you'll similarly find it interesting. With no further ado, here is my conversation with Saudia Madsburg. This is Masters in Business with very Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio Mice. Special guest today

is Sadia Mottsburg. She is the managing director at the Rockefeller Foundation, which has about four billion dollars in assets. She joined the foundation in and leads the foundation work on innovation. Previously, she was senior vice president for strategic Planning at the New York City Economic Development Corp. She spent six years at Mackenzie and four years at Cisco.

Has a Masters in Science in Applied Economics from Copenhagen Business School, as well as an undergraduate degree in international business. Saudia Madsburg, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you, briam delighted to be here. Uh and it's a pleasure to have you. So let's spend a little bit of time on your background before we delve into the details of what the foundation does. How do you go from being a consultant at mackenzie and working on telecom technology at Cisco, to

too of working in a foundation. How does that trend position take place? So if you had asked me, you know, twenty odd years ago, whether I think I would be sitting in the position I'm in now, the answer would probably be no, because it hasn't been an intentional career choice that I made from the very beginning. UM, I've always followed my intuition and my feeling in terms of what I need to be doing and where I need

to be doing that. So that is what took me from consulting to the world of tech, to public um sector in terms of New York City and now here at philanthropy. But as I do reflect back at all of this, I do think that the experiences I've gathered along the way put me in a better position to be doing the job I'm doing today. So so obviously with an entity like McKenzie, which is known as a consultant to all different manners of organizations and businesses, UM,

there's clearly and overlap. But technology telecom, how does that translate into heading up the innovation project Rockefeller? So technology, I would say I mean always but a lot recently as well, is playing a critical role in terms of how society is developing, how the basic fundamentals of you know, the job market are being shaped, what has happened, where growth is coming from, how we interact with each other, how we work with each other. Uh, the work that

I did at Cisco was very much about that. It was about understanding what is the fundamental role that technology plays in our lives at work and outside of work, and how can we use technology to address some of the fundamental challenges and opportunities. Because it's not all about challenges as we go along, So let's talk about some of those challenges and some of those opportunities. I want to reference something you had blocked about for the Foundation,

the Innovative Finance Revolution. What is that and what does the Foundation do with that? So before I get to describing the revolution, maybe I can dis where have the challenge that that revolution attempts to address. So twenty fifteen I think was a landmark year and in many different ways, but there are two particular things that we saw happened

that year. One was that the world came together to um agree on what we call the Sustainable Development goals, which are seventeen very lofty goals about how we want the world, what we want the world to look like. At the same time, we also had the Paris Climate Agreement that you know, most countries around the world came together and agreed on and has been ratified by you know,

a significant number of them. I think there's one large country that hasn't gotten around to signing offer right, and we can we can get to what that actually means in practical attempts. But both of those agreements kind of brought to the forefront the big question of how are we going to pay for all of this? How are we going to pay for these sustainable development goals? And this isn't just about developing countries, it's about us, Europe,

you know, the entire world. And how are we going to pay for are all the climate related efforts that we want to do, And that is where innovative finance comes in. And just to put a few numbers on the table as well, it's estimated that for the sustainable development goals, they're going to cost around fifty to seventy

trillion over the next decade. Trillion trillion with a capital T that's a lot of zeros, and there are also some you know, and and these are high level estimates, so when you dig down, I'm sure you can refine it along the way, but they're also estimate stent that there's a massive funding gap in terms of how we're going to get there, and that takes into account the

money philanthropy has, the money the private sector has. So if we're talking about and there's just another number for to put it in context, a gap of roughly two point five trillion per year in developing countries alone. So that doesn't even include where we are sitting right now. So we have to think innovatively. We have to think about alternative solutions, and we at the Rockefeller Foundation think that innovative finance is a big part of the answer.

So how does that manifest itself? What does innovative finance do to help funds projects like smart power for rural development. So innovative finance represents a pretty expansive set of financing mechanisms that, in one way another are designed to either attract more money to development goals and and different programs and initiatives, or to take the money that's already in place and the new money that's coming in and make sure that it's more effectively deployed. Because I talked about

the massive funding gap. That gap is there and we need to focus on it. At the same time, we also need to make sure that the way money is delivered is done in a more predictable way, in a more sustainable way, because if people you know, are working in this space, you have to know what's going to happen next year in terms of whether you're going to

have the money or not. So you're really referring to of philanthropic efficiency, making sure that the money that is allocated is used appropriately and effectively for whatever the I will say, not just philanthropic funding, also what comes from the private sector, also what comes from the public sector. So pretty pretty broad and and you know, just to put context to what kind of financing mechanisms we're talking about, it's everything from insurance links, securities, to pay for performance

debt structures to even micro texas. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Sadia Modsburg. She is the director of Innovation at the Rockefeller Foundation, and and let's talk a little bit about the foundation's mission. I'm gonna quote right off of the website to improve the well being of humanity around the world. That's a little broad. What what does it really mean in actuality, improve in the well

being of humanity? It is indeed quite broad, and every time I say it, I almost kind of need to stop, take a breath, let it sink in, and then, you know, talk about what that actually means. So, the Rockefellow Foundation has been around for roughly a hundred and four years. The year I joined, we were celebrating our centennials, So the fact that we had been around for a hundred years and were reflected back on what we had achieved

in those hundred years and what it had meant. We have always stayed true to the mission, which is to promote the well being of humanity. But what that means at any given point in time, of course, has shifted over the years, and it's shifted based on what we think the big challenges of our times have been and where we think that philanthropy has an important role to play in terms of stepping in, trying out new solutions, proving how they work, and then letting others step in

and drive those forward. I would say, though, the three things that have remain the same over the hundred and four years. One is our focus on innovation, so really

driving towards new thinking and new solutions. The second is more you know and and it's something if you read some of the letters written by John D. Rockefell in the early days that it comes out is this idea of scientific philanthropy, meaning what what's about trying to really understand what the core underlying drivers behind the challenge are.

So instead of just throwing money at something and so here's money, you know, let's go alleviate the pain and suffering here, it's about really understanding what the fundamental issue is. So when they say when you say scientific philanthropy, you mean sort of a scientific methodology using an evidence based approach. Yes, to say, hey, these dollars are actually having resonance and having an effect, these not so much less focus on

what's working. Both that, but also to use the data and to use the research to understand what the problem really is, where the problem really comes from. So when you're trying to figure out what the answer to that problem is, you're actually addressing the root causes of it. As opposed to just you know what comes to this effect. So it sounds like it's somewhat process oriented. Don't just identify a problem, find that fulk rum point that's the

key to the problem. Right. That sounds quite fascinating. I assume you're a five percent foundation, meaning each year you give away five of of the four billion or so UM and your your portfolio offsets those that that donation. How do you prioritize where to focus your efforts again, improving humanity, improving the well being humanity a giant charge trying mission. How do you drill down and say, we want to focus on these areas and within these areas,

this is the specific um issue we want to attack. So, as I mentioned, we try to you know, really understand what we think the big challenges of our times aren't based in at set our strategy at any given point in time. That's the responsibility that the senior leadership team carries, as the responsibilities that our trustees carry as well. If we look at where we are at this point in time and where we have focused, we have two overarching

goals as we call them. One is around resilience building, the other one is advancing inclusive economies and within that therefore, what we call issue areas um that we focus on. There's advanced health, revalue ecosystems, transform cities, and secure livelihoods. Now, now, having just said what these issue areas still brought issues, So that brings us back to how do you operationalize it on a day to day basis? How do you

actually try to understand what's happening in those spaces. We have a strategic insights team that continuously monitors what's happening in those spaces and shapes different suggestions for areas where we could engage, and then we take those are years and have a conversation around you know, how pressing is the problem. And I'll be honest, in most cases when you look at it, nobody can come and argue the

problem isn't pressing. They're they're terrible things happening around the world, you know, in our backyard and across the ocean as well. So it's about that, But then it's also about what we like to call looking at dynamism and potential for innovation. So with dynamism, what I mean is is there something happening at this point in time that makes it the right time for us as a foundation to go in

and engage. Is it on the policy side, is their developments in the private sector that what we should be looking at and focused on. Is it something in civic society, some thing that gives an indication there's a momentum that we can build on and accelerate. And then of course there's the impact at scale. We're here, I mean, philanthropy is here to serve poor and vulnerable people around the world. That is our role, that is what we're focused on. So at the end of it, it comes down to

our ability to have impact. So we're gonna talk more about resilience in a few minutes. Let's talk a little bit about um, the day to day and the prioritization. Do you look for low hanging fruit as the expression uh suggest, where where there's an immediate impact or are there occasional moonshots that hey, we don't know if this is going to be successful, but if it works, the impact is tremendous. So it's a both, it's it's that's what I was going to say. It's a fine balance,

and it's both. And again, when our mission is so broad, our areas are so broad, if we're really doing our job well, we can't be going to the obvious solutions and funding the obvious things. But sometimes you need to do that too. Um. I mean, we think of our money as America's risk capital, where we can deploy it in ways where the private sector wouldn't be will too, because they maybe don't want to take on the risk.

The public sector again may not be able to because either they don't have the resources available or they don't have the ability to take that risk. So we have a big responsibility in terms of what we do with that really precious privileged capital in terms of driving towards new solutions. I mean, and you talk about moonshots that

you can look at it in many different ways. We talked about in a bit of finance earlier and one of the portfolios that that I oversee the Foundation is called zero Gap, and it is focused on the financing mechanisms and closing the funding gap within that. Right now, we're funding something called outbreaking epidemic insurance. Now, ten years ago, if you weren't to anybody in the insurance industry and said, you know, public health, you know there's a massive lack

of funding. They are all these public health emergencies that come up time and time again, we don't have a good system in place to fund out how about insurance. Many of them would probably you know, have roll their eyes and say, yes, that's great. We run this business, you know, based on these things, and you know, good luck fiddling with that. Over in the philanthropic sector. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

My special guest today is Sadia Madsburg. She is the managing director of the Rockefeller Foundation, focusing on the Foundation's work on innovation. So let's talk a little bit about resilience as a public policy here in here in New York City and the surrounding region. Uh, the Superstorm Sandy was a giant mess that caused all sorts of problems in some ways outside of Katrina. It was the most expensive um storm, certainly on the East Coast. What can we as a city and a region do to become

more resilient. So I was working for New York City at the time super Storm Sandy hit, and you're right, it was a massive disaster. It was a mess. It costs the local economies of the states that were hit by it a lot. The small and medium sized businesses were shut down for a while. The public infrastructure broke down, whether you're talking about subways or telecommunications infrastructure, um, electrical electrical. I live in the suburbs. We had no electricity for

twelve days. If you would have asked me beforehand, yeah, hey, what are the odds that a storm is going to knock out electricity for two weeks? I would say, this is America. That shouldn't happen. Yeah, exactly. I mean I was living downtown Manhattan and you know I had to relocate to Midtown. That was the extent of you know, the suffering I I went through. But but no, it

was a big shock to the system. And that really does bring forward this whole concept of resilience and what should we do, not just at a city level and a state level, but for countries and regions as well. At the Rockefeller Foundation, we talked about resil alliance as the capacity of individuals, communities, societies to withstand shocks when they happen and then bounce back from them faster as well.

So it's not about trying to stop the disasters from happening and saying how do you put in place the systems, the solutions, the policies that will allow you to bounce back faster? Now have we done that? Because I know in the world of finance, we are notorious for experiencing something terrible and then forgetting about it as soon as possible. Have we forgotten about Superstorm Sandy or Katrina? Or have we taken steps to become more resilient as a as

a geography. So I think in in the public realm um, there's this very broad understanding that you cannot just forget and pretend that it didn't happen. It's happening time and time again in different parts of this country and different parts of the world. So there is a very strong momentum and focus on saying, you know, let's let's get to this oceans. Part of it is also breaking away

from the silos that we operate in. Don't think about you know this is this has to do about education, This has to do with infrastructure, this has to do with you know something else. You have to sometimes cut across the silos and say what are the right solutions

you put in place? And I mean, I'd like to give an example again from our innovative finance portfolio of something we're funding currently which people would not normally associate with resilience effort, and it has to do with natural infrastructure. So by natural infrastructure, I mean oyster reefs, I mean coral reefs and you know marsh lands and coastal wetlands. They protect a natural barrier when it comes to storms. You know, they have done it time and time again.

Their science out there that shows that, you know, a healthy coral leaf can absorb around of the energy of a wave that is massive. So you don't even have to go think, you know, let's build a massive sea wall or any you know, thing equivalent to that. How do you put in place mechanisms that can allow you to protect the natural environment we have today that is

protecting us. So so what we're funding and we're working currently with the Nature Conservancy and they're partnering with Swiss re on it is to say, um, there's the meso American reef. It's the second largest reef in the world.

It protects a lot of the local economy. When it comes to the Mexican Mexican tourism system, can you gather the hotel association and the local businesses that benefit from having a healthy reef get them to pay into a fund that invests in the maintenance of the reef but also bios catastrophe insurance on it, so when something terrible happens, one insurance pays out immediately, so you have the money

in hand, build right away because you have to. And I didn't understand you know, the complexity of it, but a lot of it is picking it up at the right time, reattaching it so it can continue to go.

It's you know, you can't come back in a month, two month, three months into it because then you're vulnerable to the you know, there are some little things I was I think a lot of people were shocked about with Sandy, and we haven't even gotten to Katrina shocked to learn that emergency generators are located in the basements of buildings, which assumes there's no flooding right stop and

thinking about this was done twenty thirty years ago. People weren't really conceptualizing a wave coming over Manhattan, going down into the subway, going down into the basements of buildings, and basically rendering those emergency generators um unusable. But what you're talking about with reef building and oyster bed promotion. These are giant macro projects that are far beyond anyone business, probably anyone UM city or or municipality. It has to

be part of a broader effort. I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening to Masters and Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Sadia Madsburg. She is the Director of Innovation at the Rockefeller Foundation, whose mission is to improve the well being of humanity around the world. So let's get into the nitty gritty of that. Uh, I'm ballparked. The foundations about four billion dollars? Is that slightly more than that? Slightly more than that? Um? How does the

Foundation manage its money? Do they use in house managers? They use out outside managers? They use both. So we have our investment office that is led by our Chief Investment Officer, Donna Dean. She's a brilliant, very very smart woman who's been taking care of the money for us so that the rest of us on the program side have money to spend on unfulfilling our mission. Uh. It

is managed externally. We have our team internally that sets you know, goals and along with the with our board and and us on which direction we want to be going in, and then they look for the right opportunities externally. So you target five percent a year to give out. That's everybody that's a tax exempt foundation uses uses that money.

How our priorities set? Is it long term thinking and it's mapped out over years, or do you have the ability we reference the bowler earlier, do you have the ability to pivot when an emergency such as that pops up. So we try to do boats because we have to be invested in areas for the long term. You can't come up with solutions, you know, in the short term and say, you know, we saw for it, let's go

on the next, onto the next one. So we have some of it dedicated towards our longer term initiatives and programs. One example of that is what we call yield wise. It's focused on reducing post harfice lass in agricultural food chain in Africa. It's something we yield loss yield wise. So yeah, so it's focused on reducing post harvest loss. So from the time a small hold of farmer harvests it till the time it gets to a market where

you can still sell it. There's a big loss that happens in there, meaning just natural attrition rot or what what is it that it's a combination of that. So um. One of the crops that we're looking at is called cassava.

It's something that you have to get to the market quickly and process very quick to melon and it's um a decent size and so I you know, for me, it's more about how do you want link it to the local markets in a more efficient way quickly And sometimes technology plays a role, or processing close to where

you're harvesting plays a role. Uh. Sometimes it's about having in place agreements when it comes to bulk purchase with big you know, food chains, where you know there's somebody there to take it off your hands and know what to do with it. Um. So it's a number of different things that come into play in terms of how you can work towards reducing food loss. So when I when I'm I'm listening to the maintaining the yield and dealing with the loss, that sounds like you're trying to

attack two things. One is poverty in the Third World by by allowing farmers to generate a better economic return. But that also applies towards food scarcity and starvation. If you're getting a better yield, then you have less loss. That just means is that much more food around, right? I mean it has to do with food security definitely.

UM And actually, I mean what I didn't mention was the efforts that we're doing here in the US UM within that initiative aren't focused on reducing harvest loss, but it's about consumer waste. There's a lot of food that you know comes into grocery stores, comes into your fridge, my fridge that never gets consumed that we end up throwing out. So again, more to say, we look at what the challenges were and then figure out what we

think the appropriate response would be. So let's let's talk about that, because I know I'm the person who takes the garbage out in the house and my wife is always wait a second and going through the fridge and tossing out whatever is turns or the tomatoes. So what can you do in the United States to reduce And it's the if memory serves it's massive. It's like fift of the farmed food is wasted. Is that is that a fair number? So I don't know the exact percentage,

but it is a really, really significant amount. Yes, uh so we're in the process of deciding where to go with it. Part of it has to do with creating alternative markets. Right, what is waste to you may not be waste to somebody else. Um. I don't know how things were when you were growing up in your house and what kind of food culture there was around it.

But in the old days, you used to take a lot of the things that you would consider close to expiration and you would make stock out of it, right, And you would make stock and cook it right, and you could put it in the freezer. It tastes delicious. You can use it, you know, for time and time again. But and then you can, you know, do other things. You can donate it to local organizations that try to bring food to people that don't currently have food. So

part of it is behavioral. Part of it has to do with the market dynamics, and I think you have to work on both hand. And I recall reading not too long ago about the market for quote unquote ugly fruit, yes, which I find fascinating that, Hey, this tomato was ugly, this apple isn't pretty, but it's perfectly edible. And there are people who are more than happy to buy it at a substantial discount. And that's an economic solution to one. I mean not just that very if you go to

any of the farmers markets around here. I live close to Union Square and I go so I go there often. And the food isn't set up to look beautiful and well shaped and the same proportions and the same sizes and all that. That is just nature. That's you know, that's part of the charm of the farmers market. This isn't factory farmed. Every tomato is perfectly read, perfectly round. Everything looks like it was recently grown without a lot of chemicals that I think always thought that was half

the appeal. So we're talking about some of the things that money can do. What are some of the things that money can't do, or at least can't do by itself. Meaning, how do you decide we can only go so far with this project? And there needs to be a lot more education and a lot more persuasion of people before they recognize and funds a project. If that makes any sense. It does, um, I think the most stark example of what money can't fix or philanthropy can't fix today is

the Syrian crisis. Um If you look at it, it's a crisis that started, as you know, small protests escalated into a full blown um civil war. Now you're a conflict, and now you're at a point where you know there there is a cease fire. But I've read one of the headlines in New York Times saying, you know, the parties were quarreling about how to move forward. In the span of those five years, you have a quarter of

a million people that have died. You have eleven million people that have been displaced from their homes, some of them within Syria, but a significant amount of them left Syria as well, state went to neighboring countries. Jordan's I was Jordan recently. And then it's amazing what capacity that country has had to take in refugees time and time again, and the treat them with decency and dignity. But Lebanon as an example, Jordan as an example. There even your

refugee is going to Iraq. I mean, who would have thought, but you know, somebody would want to go to Iraq as a refugee to get away from what's bad. And then I got you know, Turkey, and then I started getting closer to my old home, which is Europe, and it's been front and center of the policy debate in Europe, in the US, in Australia, and you know, all other parts well impacted. Brexit might have an impact on the election here. I I think people underestimate how significant the

issue in Syria was as a global um affectation. It's really driven all sorts of issues around the world. So if I take that as an example, there's no amount of money that I could have given us a grant

that would have fixed the core of that problem. Now there are things that we can do, we should be doing, and we are trying to do around How do you then take the people that are, if affected by the conflict, refugees and try to create more inclusive societies that they can be a part of to actually, you know, allow them to come back into what could be a normal life away from what what they left behind. That's quite

that's quite astonishing. So when you pick a specific issue to focus on, obviously one one question is can we have an impact? And if the issue is perhaps not, we there's not enough money in the world to resolve this that that becomes a diplomacy and governmental challenge. But when you find something that you believe your approach and your um cash can actually impact, how do you go

about measuring that impact? How can you determine how effective a given program is, both both when you're evaluating against other programs you're running or deciding, hey, we're really seeing residents here, let's put a greater refer into this or not. Do you manage just like an actual portfolio. So we do have a very strong focus on what we call monitoring, which is doing it as the program is implemented, and then evaluation, which is the actual outcomes of the program

once it has been implemented. One because we want to make sure that the impact we want to have on the life of pinvulnerable people is actually achieved, but to also so we can figure out whether the starting point that we had for when we started the program was the right one or whether we need to pivot along the way. We have been speaking with Sadia Modsburg of

the Rockefeller Foundation. If you want more information on the foundation, you could go to their website just google Rockefeller Foundation, or go to Rockfeller is it Rockfellow Foundation dot org? Is that right? Um. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and stick around for the podcast extras, where we keep the tape rolling and talk about all things philanthropic. Check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com

or follow me on Twitter at rit Halts. I'm Barry rit Halts, Human listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. I don't know why I do that. I do that every time, Sadia, thank you much so

much for doing this. I find the topic of how great pools of wealth is subsequently used in endowments and foundations for whatever the founding principle um goal was, Even when it's something as broad as making humanity, improving the well being of humanity, something like that, it's fascinating because you usually don't get to see the nuts and bolts

of how that's done. And what I find really interesting about the Rockefell Foundation, I think people's general sense of foundations are they're throwing money at problems, and and everything you've described is much more to get Biblical teach a person of fish rather than give them a fish. It's identifying where the problem is and looking for a solution where there's some subsequent ongoing economic incentive to keep the

solution going. And that's that's really quite fascinating to me. Um, I imagine your day to day work must be really interesting. It really is that it keeps me on my tiptoes. So when I was at the point of deciding whether or not to join you know what I would broadly characterize as the social sector of the development sector, I actually went around and talked to a lot of people and I thought, I don't want to just jump the fans because I think it's going to be better on

the other side. Let me get a realistic feel for what's happening. And it was an interesting time where, you know, a lot of people said, no, no, no, if you really want to make a difference, you know, find one of the smaller startups and go work there. Don't go in philanthropy. There's said in their ways and what have they done. And what I've come to realize and and really respect about the place that I work in, about the field of philanthropy at large, is, you know, it's

not about hacking. You know, global poverty, you can't do that. The problems that there's no silver bullets, there is none of that and you know this idea, you can do an app and you know everything will be fine. No, you have to have respect for the complexity of the problem and then you have to just go at it.

And my days are fascinating. I mean, you can start with talking about infrastructure finance, and then you know, talk about a humanitarian crisis and rhythm refugee crisis, and from there will go on to natural disasters in Africa and how to think about the solutions there. So there's never a dull moment I can imagine. Um, I was going to ask you. We didn't get to to this question earlier. I and I don't know if this is the focus of the Rockefeller Foundation, but what can a foundation do

about global or domestic inequality? Is that an issue that comes up. So one of our two goals is about advancing inclusive economy. So we we talk about it and think of it as inclusion that everybody gets to participate in the economic bounty of a given so not just economically, but socially as well, because you can't distinguish one from the other. If you're a member of society, you want people to be integrated on the social side, cultural side.

You know, economic side, give them the same opportunities and treat them as equals. And I think philanthropy has a role to play. One of the programs and you mentioned it earlier that we're funding is Smart Powerful Rural Development. It is an effort focused on trying out testing new sustainable business models that drive like trification and economic development

of rural villages in India. That's about how do you take somebody who's currently completely excluded from what's happening and try to bring them into the economy, but do it in a way where it's actually sustainable. Really that that's quite ah, that's quite interesting. A buddy of mine is working on this project that it's called Helical something I'm

drawing a blank on it. They essentially take what is a a rail car or you know, the standard shipping containers and they converted so you could basically air drop it anywhere. The doors open it up, solar panels come out to the top. You you purify water, you have a satellite uplink for communication. You are able to grow all sorts of food stock for for um, cattle and sheep and everything. And it's the idea is you can instantly in the response of let's say a Katrina or

some other emergency. You could instantly instant civilization with this one thing. It's really quite that is fascinating. You know. It's recently um in Denmark and I was visiting my dad, who spends part of his time in Denmark now a lot of it in Pakistan, and he was telling me how he has a solar panel installed back home in the village in Pakistan because there's so much load shedding

that happens. And I thought, wait, it's like you just had it installed yourself, and he said, yes, it's about It was like, it was like, do you have a battery for it? And he looked at me as if I was an idiot, and of course I have a What are you gonna do with it? You know? How do you get power at night? It's amazing how this sort of decentralization. Remember when you look at let's say

telecommunications and a lot of parts of the world. You know, it's a big deal for the United States to wire phones to everybody, and a lot of parts of the world just skipped over that went right to cellular I wouldn't be surprised to see something very very similar happening with electrical distribution. They're gonna skip over that centralized authority and say, hey, it's especially today panels are so efficient, So, I mean, they still have a way to go, but

they're a tenth of what they were. I think that that you need on gred and offward situations to go hand in hand. But but but I think they have a big role to play. I mean, you mentioned decentralization. Another interesting thing that we're funding right now is and it's very different from electrification, where it goes back to the topic of inclusion is the use of blockchain technology

to create economic identities for displaced people. Now, that sounds so in other words, Syrian refugees, everybody gets a unique identifier, and that blockchain is a way that you can validate who they are. So not just that, and it's more about what it can do for the development organized less about what it can do for the development organizations, and more about the individual. Today, if you're displaced from home, you know, you may have left under god awful circumstances,

you may have some form of identification or not. You end up in a camp, you get a number and that's quote unquote your identity. But and then you know, when you go from one place to another, you may keep it, you may not, you may get a new one. There's probably no record, collective record of what you've done along the way. So what blockchain can allow you to do? And we're still testing it, so so let's see what the results are. It can allow you to record along

the way the different interactions. You have to say, you're living in Jordan's not in a camp. You know the refugees there live outside the camps. You get a cash transfer from U n h c R regularly, right, Um, You have a cousin that lives in Europe who sends you money, remittances regular on a regular basis. You have some small job that you've taken somewhere, you know, maybe part time, maybe something. You have money that comes from. Imagine if you had one place where all those interactions

could be recorded. So at some point in time you want to start your own business and you go to the bank and say I would like to take out a loan, They wouldn't look at you and say, well, I'm sorry, you are just a person who has no record of showing what your credit worthiness is or isn't you actually have the ability yourself as an individual to choose how much you want to share with the institutional and then figure out alternative ways of getting integrated into

the new home that you found. That that's fascinating, that that may be the best single usage of blockchain i've heard to date. That that's really quite interesting. So I know, I only have you here for another fifteen twenty minutes, and I have a bunch of questions I want to Uh, I wanna go over. Let me just go to one that I know I missed earlier. You mentioned about working

with the private sector. How do you integrate what you do with both state and federal governments, local and federal governments, um, other philanthropy as well as the private sector. How does that look when a project is moving forward? Right? So, as I mentioned earlier, one of the core principles that we've always had is about building relationships and partnerships because we realized that we never alone can come up with the with the answer and then drive it forward. Now,

that can take many different shapes and forms. Sometimes it is the public sector, either the federal level or state or national um sorry, state or local that we partner with and then bring in the private sector, and sometimes it may just be with the private sector. I mean, I'll give you one example of a place where we we've collaborated quite well across the board, and it goes

back to the to the finance work as well. UM it's called New York City Housing Acquisition Fund, and this was around ten ten years ago, more than ten years now, where we came to get there with a number of different philanthropies, the City of New York, and a number of big banks to create this fund that was targeting, um, creating more affordable housing units here in the city. You know what the real estate market here looks like. You know how tough it can be to get loans to

to do affordable housing. So what we did was, so there's Battery Park City along with a number of different foundations, we created a guarantee fund. At the back of that, we attracted around two hundred million from big banks. So you have the likes of JP Morgan City, Morgan Stanley, many of them or most of them that put money into it. Now, we couldn't have done that alone. The banks wouldn't have ventured into it because they saw it potentially as a risky proposition and the city couldn't have

done it alone. And so what did that end up funding? So they have to date deployed over three hundred million UM and invested in either the preservation or the creation of more than ten ten house affordable housing units here in the city. And that's in down in Battery Park alone. It's it's it's all over the city. And they continue the work. The fund still exists. That that's quite that's quite fascinating. You know, I wanted to ask you a

question personally. So you're you're born in Copenhagen or born in Denmark? Is that right? And so you you grew up there? You do a semester abroad UM at Boston College and at George Washington for undergraduate and graduate. How challenging was the decision to say, um, I'm gonna come work in America. By all the annual UM surveys, Denmark is considered one of the happiest countries in the world. How do you decide to I mean, do you just

not like bicycles? What makes you? Every I've been to Dencark. I've been to Copenhagen twice and the one thing everybody tells you is look both ways. Pretty cross the street you're gonna get rund of a bike by schools. And it's so true. It's I've never seen anything. Forget Portland, Seattle of San Francisco, that is a bicycle city. It sure is. And you know it's a dangerous endeavor to drive in the city. You're here where it's dangerous to bike, and everyone's exactly there as a as a as a

car driver. It's like you're surrounded by bikes. It's amazing. So I I mean you mentioned, you know, my being born in Denmark. I was. Both my parents were from Pakistan. They had moved there back in the sixties, and as a result of a lot of different family decisions, I ended up moving and living in Pakistan for a long time as well. So yes, I did my basic elementary schooling in Pakistan. I lived there for nine years, then moved back to Denmark. Um was that culture shock going

back and forth like that. So I mean, if you take kind of you know, a spectrum, you could put Pakistan at one end and you'd put Denmark at the exact Visit it right, Boisan is loud, it's colorful, it's messy, it's completely it's completely unorganized, and then Denmark, on the other hand, is calm. It's you know, very black and white and gray, and it's it has a you know, very different field to it. I grew up in both worlds. I grew up in both worlds when I was living

in Denmark. I grew up in both worlds when I was living in Pakistan and visiting Denmark. Um. So for me, I don't see the culture shock. I can start a thought in my head in Danish and finish it in Urdu and then say it in English. That is just how you know what my life was like. In terms of moving to the U S. I'd say yes, I lived in Boston for half a year, and then I lived in d C for a year while I was studying, and then when I was at McKenzie, I did um,

I moved over to your New Jersey office. Lived in New York, but did that for a year. And the US, the U S. East Coast has always had a special place in my heart. So my husband and I we moved here eight years ago because we were getting restless in Denmark. I was getting restless in Denmark and New York has always felt like home right. A lot of energy, a lot of dynamism, a lot of things going on here, a lot of messiness, lots of noise. Yes, so it's

a little bit of of all the world. Exactly, very interesting. So let's jump to some of my favorite questions. I asked these of all my guests. Um, we talked about what you did before you started working? Who were some started working at a Rockefell, or who are some of your early mentors. So I think it's only now that I've come to think of them as my mentors. If you'd ask me this question twenty years ago, I wouldn't have.

That's a lot of the women in my family. I grew up in a very patriarchal society, whether that was you know, in our house in Denmark, or whether it was in Pakistan, and in Pakistan I assume as patriarch called Denmark also, No, well, a lot of that culture from Pakistan moved over with my family to Denmark. So so no, not wrought a Daniel society. It's the opposite.

But if you look at it, I've I've drawn inspiration from many that you know found their own way forward, whether that was my aunt who raised her own kids the way she wanted to after her husband passed away, or my mother who was, you know, a very successful doctor, or some of my cousins who broke away from tradition and did what they wanted to do, um, which was

against expectations. On the other side, I would also say, in the more traditional sense, some of the directors that I worked with when I started at McKenzie um ages Ago one in particular. I remember it was one of my first projects. I was the junior associate on the team. We went in seated there with the CEO and so on, and the CEO asked a question and the director turned around and pointed to me, and he said, well, she

did the work, why don't we just ask her? And it was just I mean, it showed me that it's about your ideas and what you have to offer and not rank um that matters in the world. And he showed that by example, and he gave me the confidence. Now, if the answer to this question hadn't been good, I'm sure he wouldn't have given me the same opportunity again UM, But that did set the tone for how I've approached

a lot of things in my career since. Care to share the name Michael, help you, Michael, help you, help you? So local Danish person. Yes, And so let's talk a little bit about what people influenced your approach to philanthropy, who has affected how you look at the world of affecting change for the betterment of mankind. So this may sound a little bit cliche, but this was ages ago.

I was still in the private sector. I was getting on a plane to go to some clients somewhere and I had a magazine UM that had an interview with

Bill Clinton. And I know it's not the popular thing to say these days and talk about the Clinton Foundation, but I talked about some of the work where it laid out some of the work that they were doing in Africa around medicine for HIV n A. So talked about how they had brought together different players from the private sector to you know, reset the price off those medicines in that part of the world, and how they've

done it through something called advanced market commitments. And to me, that was completely fascinating that, you know, and I hadn't thought of philanthropy in those terms. I thought about it in the more traditional You just give money and then you wait for something good to happen Um the other person, and this is more around our zero gap And in a bit of finance work I met he used to be the former Treasurer of the World Bank. His name is Kenneth lay Um, and he was the one who

designed the very first green bond. Now when we talk about green bonds and all the good and bad things that have come with it, you know, it doesn't get

associated with the person. But you know, I've had many conversations with him since and he keeps going at the point and I completely agree with him, and it's it's influenced my approach as well, which is, you know, take philanthropic funding to create new solutions that are sustainable instead of putting philanthropic funding forward as concessionaire capital, cationary capital.

That's quite interesting them that that's really quite quite fascinating, And it's so easy to get wrapped up, especially in the last election, with some of the political criticisms of various foundations. When you look at what the Clinton Foundation itself has actually accomplished. They've performed a lot of extract the politics, They've performed a lot of good and that gets lost in the political debate. So I don't I

don't think what you're saying is especially controversial. You just have to sometimes ignore all of the craziness around around US elections. That has to so, as a someone who spent a lot of time overseas, how do you look at US? I mean, do you I think our elections are insane? I can't imagine someone who didn't grow up here. You know, you look at the UK their elections or they seem to last a month and a half and it's done. This is like a never ending at least

for this one was two years. Just someone who's far and born but living in New York look at this and say, what are you people doing? This is a giant waste of energy, um verry. You forget that I also grew up in Pakistan. So if I take so an insane electoral process is in a constant state of elections. I mean, and you know, until recently, I think we've had a very long period where none of the elected governments had finished their attemp before there was a new election.

How does it compare to the way self governance takes place in in Denmark? So Denmark is very buttoned up, it's very focus. From the time you announced an election to the time the election happens. You're talking about weeks. You know, there isn't any after this election, especially. Um, let's talk a little bit about books. People always ask, always say to me, I'm curious as to what favorite books your guests have so related to philanthropy, finance, fiction, nonfiction.

What sort of books do you really enjoy? So, Um, I spent a lot of my time reading white papers and such reports and those aside. I know, I know. Actually, my my seven year old daughter is really into Harry Potter these and you know, once in a while when she sees me with an actual book, she will come over and she was like, how long is that book? And I'm like, three pages, doesn't matter. I just read

seven hundred pages. You can do this. So she's looking down and oh, yeah, I get shamed by my daughter. But to mention a couple of interesting ones I've I've read recently, Um, there's a fascinating book called Today We Drop Bombs, Tomorrow We Build Bridges, and it traces kind of the history of what has happened in the humanitarian space since the beginning of the Afran War, post war reconstruction,

and no, not so much about post war reconstruction. It's about how our humanitarian agenda has been brought closer and closer to our military priorities. Really, so, humanitarian organizations have always worked on the principle of neutrality. You know, you go where the need is great as you do what's needed to be done. It's not about politics. It's just about helping the change that has changed in many ways. You should read the book. It's it's a fascinating recounter

Peter gil Um. It's about what happened in Afghanistan. What has you know, happened since in other parts of the world as well, where NGOs to a large extent are dependent on funding from the governments and if the governments want them, you know, to go to certain part off, say a country, to perform their work there. Sometimes you don't really have an influence over that. So if you look at where the bulk of the foreign aid went in Afghanistan, it went to the places where there was

also the biggest military presence. Quite fascinating. Give me another book if you have. I just started reading it. Strangers at the Door. It is it looks at the moral crisis brought upon by you know, the massive refugee crisis. It kind of argues that, you know, it's it's a challenge that cuts across borders, and we are all dependent on each other define the right solutions. So taking a

more protectionist approach, um isn't the way forward. I mean, it's that sounds fascinating any and then I can always recommend some research papers if if you're interested, I'll pass listen everybody. I would imagine half the listeners to this been a lot of time reading and finance and other such UM related papers, and the question always comes up, is I want to put this aside? Give me something either fiction or nonfiction, biography or something else. I can't

tell you how often the question comes up. UM. So those are two good recommendations. Well, we'll look into that. So since you joined UM the Rockefeller Foundation, how have you seen the industry changed? Meaning how is philanthropy in the midst of adapting to the modern world. So in the last four years a lot has changed. I think more filmthropic money with big names has come in. Zukobug

Chan initiative is just an example of that. I guess that's good for the broader field in terms of more people focusing on the things that that we focus on. UM I think there's been a clear recognition of the role of private sector in getting to solutions, and I think the work around climate change and the involvement of the business community in that largely speaks to it. I think there's also been more of a recognition of the

interdependence and problems cutting across boundaries than before. I think climate change again is part of it. You can't as one country you just solve it. You're dependent on every other country around you. Global migration is another example of that, and then the big backlash against globalization that has come to the forefront is affecting a lot of them. What about big data? Is big data impacting philanthropy the way

it is impacting the private sector. So it is, and we do try to build solutions around it, but it's it's again about having context for that data, understanding what it means and what you need to do, instead of blindly following it. So I'm down to my last two and very favorite questions. So if a millennial came to you, someone who just duated college and said I'm interested in a career in philanthropy, what sort of advice would you give them. I would say one thing, which is have

respect for the problems. It's something that we were talking about earlier. These are complex, messy problems. You have to have respect for them. You have to really understand them before you start jumping to solutions. There are no quick fixes around here, you you know. Uh. The other thing I would say is you better buck up because you're going to get knocked down many, many, many times. And that is part of working in this space. You try many things before you get to the one that really works.

So be willing able to just jump in there and and keep going at it. You have to be resilient. And yes, yes, very much, so thank you for that plug. And and our last question, what is it that you know about the world of philanthropy today that you wish you knew ten plus years ago when you started. I wish I knew how hard it would be to give

away money. Really it is really really difficult. So with all the other jobs I had before coming here, including city government, it was about you know, I have this idea, and where do I get the money from and what do I do? And then with this job, I was like, this is realiant. Now I'm the one who has the money and I get to have the conversations about where to give the ideas. It is so difficult because at the core of it, our responsibility is to poor and

vulnerable people. It's precious dollars. It cannot be squandered. And even though when we take risks, they're calculated risk. I end with one thing. So David Rockefeller Jr. Used to be on our board. He just retired last year after his term was up. And he's a lovely man, very passionate. Every time we had our board meetings, you know, got a chance to meet him, he would say, what are you working on right now? That excites you the most? I remember the first time he asked me the question.

You know, I had a slight moment of panic and I was like, if I can't with conviction give him an answer, you know, about to that question that I don't deserve to be in this role because it was you know, his family that started at all. It's because of him that we're doing what we're doing, and I better do a good job. Well, that sounds quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Saudia Madsburg of the Rockefeller Foundation.

If you enjoyed this conversation. Be sure and look up an inch or down an inch on Apple iTunes and you could see any of the hundred and fifteen or so such conversations we have had previously. Uh be sure and share your comments, feedbacks and suggestions with us right too. I'm gonna do that again because I just totally uh tripped on my own tongue. Be sure and send us your comments, feedback and suggestions. That's the proper use of the plural words right to us at m IB podcast

at Bloomberg dot net. I would you remiss if I did not thank Medina, our recording engineer, Taylor Riggs, our booker, and Michael Batnick, our director of research. I'm Barry Riholts. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.