Fern Mallis Discusses the Fashion Industry (Podcast)

interesting and fascinating conversation. So, with no further ado, my interview with Fern Malice. My special guest today is Fern Malice. She is the president of fashion and design consultancy Fern Malice LLC. Previously, she was the executive director of the Council of Fashion Designers of America, where she has been awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award, as well as other such awards from Pratt Institute and the Fashion Institute of Technology better known as f i T. She is the creator

of Fashion Week in New York. Fern Malice, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you, Barry. I'm happy to be here. So let's talk a little bit about your background in fashion. Is this an area you were always interested in and how did you break into the field. Yes, I guess you could say I was always interested in it. I grew up in Brooklyn. My dad worked in the government center and his brothers worked there as well. My dad was in accessories scarves primarily, and the uncles were in textiles

and in sportswear. Family business. I grew up in going, going with him to work every time I could, every day off from school to the garment district when it was a bustling, hustling place, all those carts on the street, and all those people who knew each other, and and I learned, and I watched, and I loved it, and I loved clothing. So what was your first job we

were working not for a family member. Well, I never worked for a family member, Luckily, I just grew up surrounded by them and learned about the industry, apprentice assimilating um. But my early jobs in high school, my summer jobs were at Simplicity Patterns, which was a big deal at that time when people used to make their own clothes, and and a department store. Do you ever remember the name or backs thirty fourth Street that I worked in our backs one summer. I kind of remember one read

off a root for in New Jersey. Oh, you know they eventually they did expand and then they you know, shut down like everything else. Um, but those were my first jobs in school. I was in school. But then my first real job was at Mademoiselle magazine at Conde Nast. So what did you do for Mademoiselle? Um? Well, I actually that's how my career really started. I want to contest. I was a Mademoiselle guest editor, which was a very

big deal when I was growing up. They picked twenty students from around the country to guest edit their college issue come to New York for a month. Today it would be a reality TV show with twenty girls out to kill each other in some apartment to get the job or the boyfriend. And it was an extraordinary experience.

Sylvia Plath was a guest editor Ally McGraw bet C. Johnson before me and before they were famous, but well before they when they were in college getting getting the junior senior year of college and I was at the University of Buffalo. Came back and did my my guest editorship, and then I was the only one of my twenty in that group that was asked to stay on at the magazine with a full time job. So what did

you do with the magazine going forward? After After that forward, I was in the college competitions area and then merchandising and marketing UM. But in the college camp area, it was very interesting because we're talking I graduated in sixty nine, being revealing my age here people do the math, but it was when the world was coming apart. It was Vietnam War. It was craziness. And so going to college campuses to talk about a fashion magazine, and Mademoiselle was

more than a fashion magazine. It was really the thinking woman's magazine. At its time, it was one of the best books in the Counting Nest stable. So you started postfringe but pre polyester. Is that affair? Yeah, you could say that, you know, and and it was a great experience.

And then when I moved into the merchandising area, I in my twenties was traveling to every single state in the country, going to department stores when they all had regional names and identities before they were all bought by Macy's, and doing story events, bringing the magazine to life. It was a great experience. So how did you go from working for a magazine to setting up your own consultancy?

What was in between that? There were several things in between that, including working for Gimbals East as fashion director on the Uptown store when that was there. Um, I worked on Seventh Avenue for a short time. I hated that side of the business. Um, why what was what was the problem? You know? I like it was the nitty gritty mathiastically like selling. I liked being the one people wanted to come to. It just wasn't the right

fit for me. Um. But eventually I opened up a PR firm um And I basically did that because I thought I had nine full one one on my forehead. Everybody would call me for where do I get this? How do I get that? Can you connect me with this? Can you? I was like one of my central booking information here, and I realized I could get paid for

that information. So I opened up a PR firm in my friends offices who are architects and interior designers, and at the time two place it contextually they were designing Studio fifty four. So that was a fun, heady time to be around them. And this is mid to late seventies now, Yes, and we I had a PR firm and I started representing. The first one was a fashion client was Shri, a Varry store that was very famous on the West Side, Selma Wiser and a few other

fashion friends. And then it shifted to architecture and interior design and representing all the major furniture companies and textile companies because I love that world. I love the whole design world, how it all connects and lifestyle. And I then ran left that to join one of my clients, which was the I d C m Y International Design Center, New York in Long Island City, was right over the bridge. It was an extraordinary project building a million square feet

of showrooms for the interior furnishings industry. And we helped bill that and I was very much involved in that, working with I AM Paying Partners and Coffee Seagull and UM I AM and the Vanielli's who did the graphics. It was a wonderful time in my life. I d C opened a building in New York. Now, didn't they

know they's either the decorator and design. Yes, there were several design buildings in new but it's not I I d C was competition to all those buildings in Long Island City, and people were very nervous that everybody was going to go over the bridge. It didn't work out, you know, going over the bridge in New York if you're if you're not going to the airport or going home, you don't cross the water. I mean in Chicago, Paris, everywhere else. You cross the water all day long with Chicago.

But New York it didn't work, and we had they were closing lanes of the bridge all the time. They really screwed it up big time. It was all time million dollar complex and it still is one of the most extraordinary set of buildings that old factories that were retrofitted to design showrooms. The best architects in the world designed them all. And now that whole area is hot as a pistol. That was Premazon. Now if I wish when I was there that I bought property Among Island

City for Amazon. They were building Huge was the first building that you know, we thought, okay, when the rest of this going to happen, But it took a long long time. By the way, you mentioned um department stores that are no longer with us. Let's test your memory. We're sitting standing in a building. We're sitting in a building Alexander's, alexand that's exactly right by the way. Alexander's is the store I was thinking of on Route for

that had the giant was it a calleder? It was a giant piece of artwork on the outside of the building. On Route four. I want to say, just passed Hackensack, But I was a kid with I don't go root for right bridge and tunnels. You never leave Manhattan unless you go into the Hamptons. That's the not to or or an airport. So let's talk about before Fashion Week.

What was the state of the fashion industry before this event existed, well before Fashion Week was formally created and organized, centralized and modernized, which is what I like to say, Um we did. There were fashion shows. I mean, the industry had its bi annual timetable to get its collections out in front of buyers. But it was a very very exclusive, insider event. If you weren't in the industry,

you didn't know about it. If you went by a building on Seventh Avenue, you might think what's going on? If there's a line outside getting in or something. If they were fifty shows, they were in fifty different locations and nobody talked to each other. It was uptown, downtown, midtown.

You know, if somebody had a show in the Pierre Hotel and morning, they'd have to take everything down in the afternoon because somebody had a our mits for there that night, and then somebody wanted to rent it again the next day, you'd put it all back in there. It was a bit chaotic. Um sounds complicated and expensive, and it was complicated, expensive, and it was. It was at a time when the American designers weren't really well known and reaching out to Europe. The biggest European expansion

was Calvin Klein maybe doing Fragrance. And so I'm glad you brought that up because I'm now my perspective on this is colored by pop culture and movies like the Devil Wears product. But you very much get the sense that both Paris and Milan were much more structured and organized or is that just you know, that's the truth. Paris and Milan were the that that's where it was, that that's what it was about. London a little bit New York was somewhat of an afterthought. York was treated

as their last on the calendar. They're waiting to see what we do in Europe and they're gonna copy us, and it was it was crazy. So I had just

been hired. This is back in ninety one. I was selected as the executive director of the c f d A after they did a very long search, after I left the design universe of I, D C and Y and all of that, And there was this little organization, the c FDA, which had done a big AIDS benefit called seventh on six, seventh on Sale, and that's when I got involved with them and I was hired as their executive director. It was March of one, and I believe that I remember exactly. I was hired at the

end of March. I didn't start till mid April. There was a market Week Fashion week in between. Michael Cores had a show in an empty loft space and Chelsea And when you turn the base music on in a space for a fashion show, that's very loud, and if things aren't nailed down, they tend to tremble. Well, the ceiling trembled and plasters started falling off from the ceiling. And the ceiling literally was falling down on the runway.

He brought the roof down. Well, there you go. He brought the roof down, and plaster was on the shoulders of Naomi and Cindy and Linda and all the one named supermodels of the day. But when but they kept walking? But when it landed in the lapse of Susie Mankis from the International Herald Tribune carried Donovan, the fashion critic at the New York Times. They wrote the next day, we live for fashion, we don't want to die for it.

And I looked at all that and I said, I think my job description just changed and it beat My job then started immediately when I got there, to figure out a way to do safe sound places for the American designers to do their runway shows. So the concept was, let's get all this together in one place, one location, one week, make it safe, make it accessible, make it more reasonable and more efficient, amortized the costs for everybody.

And so how did you end up finding a way to Bryant Park, which, if we're talking one Brian Park was still a little city, but it was on It was in the last throes of its renovation. At the restaurant, wasn't there right? For people who are not familiar with this, Brian Park is basically the full city block behind the

New York Public Library. In the sixties seventies, eighties, it was very much haven for drugs and right Needle Park and um, when I used to visit my dad's office on Madison Avenue, we would say, if you're come in by train, don't go up. And now my office on which is pretty it's one of the most beautiful urban renovation ever. A jewel of the city. It is. It is a very very special place. And the lawn there was it was like the backyard to the garment center.

Because it was a block away from Seventh Avenue Broadway, where all the showrooms were. It was walking to everything. There's lots of public transportation and subways. Block away from Times Square, two blocks from Grand Central. I mean, you don't get a better location than Brian Park. It's pretty much smack dab in the center of the city. You can get to it from anywhere easily. Yeah, and so we we began. My job became find a place. So I was riding around New York. I look at every

empty pier, every big parking lot. Can we put tents up here? How big can we do this? Um San Herman, who was the president of the CFD eight office, is actually on the corner of and sixth overlooking Brian Park and he was on the board of the community board there and work closely with Dan Biederman, who I know you've interviewed her the big and we wound up eventually making a deal with with Dan and with Brian Park. It was literally the backyard to the to the industry.

People loved it there and I used to for again for people who may not have actually seen this, and you could find time lapse photography about it. The part goes from this big open space that's I don't know, let's call it half a city block, and that's the lawn and suddenly a giant set of tents go up

and a little city. Now what they do is in the winter there's a ice skating rink and a lodge that's temporary right well that they disappeared January, so they're gone already, but you still have urban space there and you still have the ice skating rink. But if you watched Fashion Week show up, it was an amazing bit of logistics to build it and then you could go see the video and you don't really you it's hard

to imagine that this is a temporary space. When you see images from the fashion show, it always looks amazing. So how what was it like setting up that first one? It was pretty extraordinary. Uh. I mean we had started first at the MACLo Hotel, which was the then became the Millennial Hotel, just to see if we can get more than three designers to do something together, because their egos is such that nobody wants to do anything in

the same space. But they really genuine problem a problem at the beginning was first, is there jockeying for absolutely, it's it's the war room with the with the slots and moving the post. It's around until you got his calendar that work. That's the wedding where all sorts of crazy stuff and you had to deal with that only with much bigger egos. Yeah, you could say that, but but they understood at the beginning that this was gonna If this is gonna work, we all have to do

it together. So the first seasons we did have Calvin Klein in the tents and Donna Karen and Ralph Lauren Um who Eventually those designers moved out to do their own thing, which was fine, but it helped get this off the ground. We invited all the European press and buyers to come and it changed the world and it changed the fashion industry. How long did it take before you realized, hey, we have something here. Oh, it didn't

take long at all. It happened very quickly, and I'm extremely proud of what that meant to these people into the industry, into our city and our culture. But that first season, that first sound check, when the music really went blasting, you know, goose bumps all over, you know, you just couldn't believe it was really happening. We did

a ribbon cutting with Dincin and Mayor Dincon's wife. Let's talk a little bit about the business of fashion, because, after all, um, it is a business whose purpose is to sell products to consumers. How do you look at the world of fast fashion. After there's a show in Paris and Milan, it seems two weeks later they're cheap knockoffs from China hanging on the racks in the US. Is this a good thing? Is this a thing? How do we how do we think about this, well, it

depends on who you are. If you're a consumer who wants to buy something really fast and of the moment, and that's really inexpensive, it's a great thing. If you're a designer and you know a company with integrity, who plays by the rules of time and place and making something and putting out a quality product, it's not such a good thing. If you're into sustainable fashion in the industry, it's not such a good thing because there's a ton of stuff that's being made that is filling landfills, um.

You know, there's there are a lot of problems. But fast fashion has woken up a lot of people. I mean the H and m s of the world and top Shop and Sarah's and what have you. Um, But the customer who's buying that is not the customer who's buying really designer clothes. People know the difference. The luxury business right now is doing very well. The LVMH is the um. Louis utan Chanel I never really thought of fast fashion as a threat to the either aspirational luxury

or full own luxury. But I do look at e commerce and everything being online, as well as things like rent the Runway and predd up porter as potentially satisfying some of the demand for those products. How does the industry look at either e commerce or high end pre owned or even rentable um fashion. I think those are all the different aspects of the industry that have evolved over the years. UM. I think you know, rent the runway is a brilliant business. Jennifer Hyman started. I worked

with her at IMG we were there at the same time. UM, it's quite remarkable read the rental business period is becoming a big, big business because people it's also sustainable. Also, you don't need to buy this stuff, you don't need to own it in your closet. UM. All of that is great, but e commerce is very much a part

of everybody's business. The highest end luxury people that everybody's available on e commerce one way or another, whether it's their own site or their part of Matches Fashion or Netta Porte or uh some of the very big UM conglomerates. You know, UM, what's the word I'm thinking of? Who you know? Who put all the different looks together? Far fetched? Who has all the different stores on it? I mean the e commerce, the online business is enormous. This holiday season,

it was huge. And what that is hurting more than anything is the retail experience. Um. So it's forcing stores again, at least smart stores, to rethink what they're doing and to create an experience to make shopping matter again. UM. I mean it's very sad. And you walk around New York and you see all the Forends signs. You know, Lord and Taylor is just closed down. Um just the headquarters. Now what a New York store, Yes, but but that still was an iconic New York store. Um. The Versace

stores closing on Fifth Avenue. Um, there's all sorts of stores going out everywhere. The Gap store is closing on Fifth Avenue. Um. But retailers are looking at creating experiences again. I know, Sex of the avenues going under major renovation. They've moved you know, accessories up and pan bags down, and cosmetics had another set up to another floor. They've just bringing in a very fancy restaurant from France the avenue.

They're trying to create reasons for people to come back into the stores, and I think that's a good thing. And e commerce companies like Rent the Runway have begun to open retail outposts. So there's still there's still people like going to a place and seeing it, trying it on and having that experience. I previously had a conversation with Barbara kan who's a professor at Wharton, and she was telling us about some of the new technology that's come in where you know, when you shop at Amazon,

they have this huge informational advantage. If you click this, we we could tell you what everybody else looked at. These are the three most popular ingredients of or objects or items, not ingredients, These are the three most popular

items for other people who bought this. What Professor Kam was saying is you could they're using RF radio tags and a smart mirror, and when you bring an item in certain stores into the dressing room, the mirror will act very similar to the way Amazon did, and said people who looked at this item also looked at this belt, the scarf, the successory, and not only are they getting a higher percentage of sales, but they're also getting a higher percentage of anons and other things, Which is a

long winded way of a sking what is the role of technology in fashion. It's a huge part of the fashion industry. It's a huge part of every industry. I mean, technology has changed the way we do everything. It's a little bit of big brother watching you in a way, and it's a little bit scary some day. Some days, you know, if you just look at something online, the next time you open up your computer, tensites jump in your face, like are you looking for a tote bag?

You know here? Whatever, it's I it's invasive. It's as it is scary. That's a generational thing you and I hate that. Younger folks they could care less about it. PS. I've discovered that if I log out of Facebook while I'm online, that sort of stuff happens much less because Facebook tracks everything you do on Facebook off Facebook, and they're the ones who are serving you a lot of that stuff, just making I guess I should be happy that I've been I've been act on Facebook like six

seven months ago, and I can't. I can't get back on no matter what. I've tried everything, connecting with everybody under the sun, and I have to two pages, you know, a verified one and a personal one, both of them I can. I cannot log on to Facebook. I get messages all day long from people on emails. So and so commented, I said, I can't see any of it. So if anybody's listening from Facebook, come on, please tell me how to get You're losing a good, good customer here.

I'd like to be back on. Well, we'll forward this to someone there and make sure they if it was Twitter, I could help you. I have no contact that U Actually that's not true. I do have contacts on Facebook, but I don't know if I can help you with it. Um. After I slag them constantly about being such a we'll say something nice. Um. So let's let's we talked about e commerce. This raises a really interesting question. Is fashion and clothing the sort of thing that people are always

going to go into a store for? Or can you have Will we eventually get to the point where the stores become virtual and people don't have to go physically shopping. Now, that will never happen. That's your forecast that they're the smart ones will adapt and and change and evolve as any smart business. But I think you still want to go and see and touch and feel, and if you can make the experiences unique and service be an important part of it. I mean, I'm a little nervous in

New York in a few months. There's a new name, and Marcus is going to open up in the city and the Nordstrom's in this year. I mean, those are two serious department stores opening in New York City in a time when people are just nervous about shop being and going to stories. Are we saturated with big department stores in New York City? No, I don't think we are at all. That's why I think this is gonna be interesting having the two of them open. But it's

going to be interesting. That's I don't want to pass judge and I don't want to predict. We'll see. Nordstrom's is new to New York this. I mean there's a men's store that opened first, but that's has a very different culture. And even Marcus is going to open in Hudson Yards, you know, and that's going to be interesting.

It's not a place with a lot of foot traffic yet, not yet anyway to be a destination, although there's certainly between the high Line and everything else that's over there, there's certainly a ton of tourist traction making its way near the Hudson Yards. It's really not all that far away from that um you mentioned, um Nordstrom I know Nordstrom in Suburbia from Nordstrom Rack. How do you Although that's not true because I've gone to the north Stroom

that is in UH at Roosevelt Field. I don't go to malls, so I don't remember, but I've been in Nordstrom's and Nordstrom Rack, which raises the question, what do you think about this sort of outlet center shopping that has blown up over the past I don't know, twenty years. For a while, I think this still happens in New York. The tourists would get on a bus and drive an hour and a half north to go to the giant outlets center that's up in just north of White Plains,

And it took me a while to access that. But um, I literally bus loads of people go up there to go shopping. Is that a viable business? Is it the same clothes that you see in the main stores? What? What are your thoughts about? It's definitely a viable business. And Woodburry Commons is quite phenomenal. I mean the amount of stores they have and they create those shopping um destination um to replicate the headquarters stores, so it's not

just a bunch of rack closed somewhere. You know, you feel like you're in a berbery, you feel like you're in a in a you know, Barneys or whatever is up there. But it's not the same merchandise that you can find in the current lines. It's it's generally past season or it's um and in many cases there's separate business companies make stuff for that lit stores, they make other lines that you can't even buy anywhere else that

they're a lower price. UM. I don't think those customers getting on the buses at you know, um the big hotels in the city, at the what's the bus m what's across the streets from the Times, what's called the bus terminal Port Authority, thank you. Um. They are bus loads of people, like you say, tourists and a lot of Asians. UM, fill up those buses and go there.

They mark, they market to people. So tours come here from China and Japan and elsewhere, and part of the week or two they spend in the United States eights is a bus pulls up in from the hotel as part of their vacation and they go up to the Woodbury Outlets centers. That's what my understanding is. I was up there years and years ago. In fact, to do a radio show for w R with John Hamburg years ago. We did it from Woodbury Commons and it always intrigues

me that I should go there. But I got across the bridge, got across the water, and we know you won't do that airports and in the Hampton's we got that. Um So let's talk a little bit about the power of brands. How important are brands, whether it's a designer, a manufacturer or retailer. Do brands still carry the same cachet and power that they used to? Well, that depends on the brand, you know. I mean the sneak the biggest thing in the world now, sneakers you know, from

whether it's Nike, Adidas, whomever. Um, I notice you're wearing a pair of Yeasys. I am not wearing. Get out of here when you have nothing else to do, Google furnace, Kanye West. Trust me. That's why I've brought that up. I know you guys have had a falling out and a reconciliation and we just had a little bruhaha, no no, no, no, squirremat and I purposely did not wear I'm a sneaker head. And I purposely did not wear anything today. Yeah, these

are royal birds, they're wool. They're kind of funky online things. But um, but brands. But brands matter to some people. Some people are very brand conscious. I mean, you know the phenomena of Supreme having a name on something in a line outside that store. But you know what seems to be resonating more with people now are brands and companies that stand for something and give back and have

a moral purpose for existing. People are really looking for some hatchment to a company and why they're doing certain things like when Nike did took their stand with Kaepernick. Colin Kaepernick, can I push back on you? And then we'll talk about Gillette. So think about the people who were pro and con Colin Kaepernack. The people who were all up in arms over them taking a knee, their red state folks. They're lower disposal income folks. They're older.

That's not Nike's core demographic. Nike's core demographic or young hip. I mean, I think the number was their sales once people under thirty five. The business went through the roof after it was a genius. It was the best marketing um moment of it was totally. It was just it was it was emotional. It was the right thing to do, you know, and that's what resonates with a brand when they do that, that's when you really want to support

a company. So now we're recording this the day after Nike did their big release about their UH sneakers that lace up automatically for three hundred and sixty dollars. I haven't seen them yet, but it was all over the press yesterday wired Verge. So you get your automatic laceup sneakers and go in your driverless car, right, So, you have a button over here you can loosen it or

tighten it. And there's also what makes it so interesting is it comes with an app for your phone that tracks your activity, your calories, burn your miles, all that stuff. So it's a smart sneaker, not just a self lacing sneaker. And if you're engaging in sports. This wasn't supposed to be an ad for Nike, but um, I'll speak to Phil Night whenever he wants. When you move and play a sport, the sneaker actually adapts to what you're doing

to provide better support. And you know the technology, Well, think about the first time you tried on a dry fit shirt where they wis the water away? If you're you may mentioned Dinkins playing tennis, if you've ever played a sport where you're just drenched and your close stick to you and the technology is brilliant and it really is just fascinating. So back to brands, Brands that are innovative and pushing the envelope and stand for something. You're

telling us this really makes a difference. Resonates, Yes, what about have you seen the Gillette add on that I might not? Now maybe I'm just a New York liberal East Coast you know, socialist summer camps. The line from the Woody Allen movie. Um, I watched that, and I'm like, I don't understand what. Hey, don't let your kids bully other kids. What they to complain about? Well, apparently we're on our little Manhattan Island bubble, so we see the

world differently than some other folks. Well, I hope they stayed with that, because I think that kind of advertising marketing is brilliant. I mean, we need more of that everywhere. I'm that that that universe needs to get those messages out. So when you stop and think about it, whether you whether you're a snowflake who's triggered by one of these things, or you think it's fine, or anything in between, if you just think about it from an advertising and marketing perspective.

We're talking about Gillette and that's a win for them. Everything is so saturated and cluttered. To break through is not easy to do. You're absolutely right, so bravo to these companies for doing that. Let's for now stick with the business of fashion and what sort of changes are coming our way. You mentioned issues and retailing UM, and we talked earlier about fast fashion. What other changes do

you see coming um to this industry. Some of the things that I see on the horizon are a lot of designers and a lot of people doing what we want to call um genderalist fashion, clothing that is designed for a man a woman. There's a lot of that starting to happen. Really, I've seen that with sneakers. What else is genderless sweaters, tops, pants? I mean, what makes it different depends on how how it's designed. There's a lot of that happening now and I think it's I

think it's really interesting. There's a lot of seasonless clothing that is year round because of the technology and textiles and the layering of clothing. There's also a lot more

size inclusivity happening. Where what does that mean? Define that For many years, all the good brands and designer clothes you'd buy would if I'm talking women, now you know you'd go up to maybe a size twelve, maybe a Fortunately, now they're going up to all the plus sizes being included in creating collections for big girls and people who who are not model size zero in two, four six, I mean that that's a huge I think fourteen or sixteen is the biggest size in America of the most people,

and most designers don't even address them. Address that. You mentioned plus size models. That seems to be that's a big part of fashion week now when you see it in advertising, when you look at all the adds, they're girls across the spectrum from nice and thin and lovely, too big and beautiful and proud of it. Ashley Graham has opened up doors for lots of people when she became the first plus size model. I think on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Wasn't um I'm gonna get her

name wrong? Was it? Kate Hudson. One of the swimsuit models was considers plus size and you look at her and she's gorgeous and not what you would really think of as it's been a very interesting industry that's been about that thin, skinny you know waif And now they're more zoptic and beautiful and and proud of it, um, you know, and and fashion now and and at the shows you see more inclusivity of of and diversity of black models and Asian models and Indian models and people

of all the different ethnic cultures. I mean, that's who the customer is, that's who the world is. And designers who you know put out that one. You know, I don't one blonde girl with straight blonde hair, you know, sixty girls work. That's not what it's about. And so there's been a demand in the industry and the customers and the media have really gotten fired up and said, come on, let's reflect what's happening in the world. And I think that that's all really good positive changes for

the fashion industry. And it'll be interesting to see this fashion wink that's coming up. Um how again, how how that plays out? Because the runway becomes a big bulletin board for what's happening. So that raises a really interesting question and how important are the runway shows and events like fashion Week to a selling the latest designs but be also being an influencer on culture and society. Well, I think the importance of fashion week and the fashion

shows is changing. Um. I think we're in a very disruptive moment in fashion. People aren't quite sure, um if they should be doing shows and spending the large amounts of money for it. But it still is a vehicle that generates millions of Instagram moments, you know. So it's become a vehicle for social media to really get the

message out or the look out. And that's the good news bad news in my mind, because I'm still of that generation like you say that, I wasn't born with an iPhone in my hand, and you know, and I think eventually it's it's all changing so much. I mean, I you sit at a fashion show and I find it very frustrating that hardly anybody's looking at the runway.

They're looking at their phone and they're photographing everything, and instead of looking at the real thing happening, they're looking at it in a two inch by three inch little frame. You have to be present and then I put it down. You know, just look at what you look what's in front of you. I really admire concerts where you hear people where they say no phones allowed. I just saw um, who was it? I just saw a show with I'm drawing a blank on his name. I'll figure it out.

I went to a show recently where everybody puts their phone in a bag and I actually left the phone UM in the car so I didn't have to deal with it. Because I thought they'd be a giant line. It turned out it's just a little magnet and they pop it open. It Really there are people like Dave Chappelle, who appears in various places will not allow Assaf Manji is another one. Yeah, I mean you look at these things.

All you see is to see them arms in the in the air, and you can't even see who's performing because you've got to look through everybody's arms to the pictures they're taking. What do they do with all that footage and all those pictures? It goes up to Apple um or Google Photos and they never look at it again. The concept of being present in the moment and participating in what's happening right now. I think the current generation, while they have a lot to speak for, their their motivated,

they're intelligent. They see the world um in ways that we may not. Sometimes it feels like they're missing that moment because they're trying to instagram it right, and everybody's designing things for that Instagram morble moment. You go to any party now or opening for something, it's no longer just the step and repeat wall where they're taking pictures with the brand's name on their They're finding some unique

visual that conveys something they're doing. And that's the place where everybody, they expect, don't want everybody to take their picture, you know, to take their selfie, not not even a real picture, take your own picture in front of that that Instagram morble spot, you know. And that's how the world is viewed now through Instagram. So fashion week becomes a place where everybody wants to quickly say out, you know, I'm there, I was there. I that's the best look.

Smart companies understand how to track data and and use that information and can say this was the biggest look that came out of that show. This is what we should get behind, you know, and this is something we should maybe you know, do a bigger production run on, you know, if you could use the information correctly. I think that there's some value in it. But you know, but otherwise, fashion week is is. Fashion shows are still the best way to see a designer's vision come to

fruition from head to toe. What are they thinking? What's there? What's a look? What's the point of view? But I question, now, who's who are you doing it for? Who's again I'm getting too old now. I mean I used to go and I, you know, everybody in the front row, and then the second row and maybe even the third row. Now you go, who are these people? You know, I didn't know there was a job called influencer when I

was growing up. I would have applied. Well, when you and I were growing up, that wasn't a job that didn't exist pre internet, pre mobile, pre cell phone. Um I forgot. I don't remember the brand, but I read uh something not too long ago. It might have been in Wired magazine that even ice cream companies are changing all their labeling on the packages so they're instagram double like, oh look how nice this is? Take a photo and that's free marketing and advertising for them. So the idea

of actually building something from the ground up. You're gonna get lost in this sea of competition, but if you can get in front of enough people via Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or what have you, it's a leg up. Yeah. I mean models are hired and booked for shows based on how many Instagram followers they have. You know, models and people celebrities used to have to build a career. Now they build their their own platform. They do it

all by themselves. You know, models have tell their story without you don't have to wait for them to be on fifteen Vogue covers to have a career. They reach out and they do their story and they have millions of followers. But you know in Instagram, there was a one of my favorite jokes I saw was on UM. I think it must have been a New Yorker cartoon of a couple of people, a couple at a table and a restaurant eating and the chef walks over to them and looks at them and says, what's the matter.

Didn't you like the food? And they said, well, yeah, they said, because nobody took a picture. Um, you know, I'm trying to pronounce her name, Emily Radoshkowski, who was in the Blurredlines video. I think she has some like four million Twitter followers. It's um, it's really shocking, and that is here. I could actually pull it up while where her official Oh I'm wrong one point three million, so but still that's a million people. That's a lot

of people. Um, she got famous long before that. But at a certain point, if you want a career in fill in the blank, having the ability to influence or attract in the modern era, being adept at marketing, especially online and social networks is a user huge advantage for anybody pretty much in any career at risk. It man splaining that, but it seems to be a big, big

part of that many industries. It is. Well, that's how people get their information online and on a screen on a cell phone on I mean, I have nieces who don't ever turn television and they watch everything on their computer on their laptops. I never never have TV on. So, so what does all of this mean for the future

of fashion and clothing? If people aren't watching TV, if they're not paying attention to what's going on around them, how do um companies and manufacturers and advertisers reach the audience, well, you know how it affects them all. I mean, at the end of the day, people are still wearing clothing. You know, people haven't all the last week they I guess walked out on the subways with no pants on or something. There was some it was a big deal

pant day or something. But people are still getting up every day and putting clothing on, and they're still wearing clothes. They still buy things. So the industry is not going too far away, um, But how people reach out to them, that's that's a good question. I mean, you have to be you have to hire smart and Brighten, um and I and you have to get into that head of that millennial and some of those young people who are

really out there thinking coming up with clever ideas. You have to create experiences and you have to create something that resonates. And that's why I said, it's whether it's resonating about the environment and things that matter to people. This generation is finally caring about the environment because it's the planet that they're they're growing up in. And I think there's more and more attention to that learning about that. Brands that are making a real concerted effort to do

something that is sustainable and correct. Um. And we're all still learning about that and don't even know what all those words mean. UM. You know. I'm on the board of the f I T Foundation. UM, and our gala this year in April is honoring is focusing on sustainability. It's gonna be surrounded by a conference for two days about the issue of sustainability, with great people speaking. UM.

It's all about the young generation. These kids in school, they care about that, they recycle, they they they they really work things through. And companies have to start having a message that matters. UM. And I think that that's where somehow those messages get through. You. Can you stick around a bit? I have a bunch of more questions for you. We have been speaking with Fern Malice of

the Firm Alice Consultancy and fashion icons at the Street. Y. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and stick around for the podcast extras. Will we keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all things fashion. You can find that wherever your Finer podcasts are sold iTunes, Overcast, Stitcher, Bloomberg dot com. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions Right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net.

Follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. You can check out my daily column at Bloomberg dot com m slash Opinion. I'm Barry with Holts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, Fern. Thank you so much for doing this. I've been looking forward to having this conversation. I was going to drag my wife in UM because she spent a long time teaching fashion

illustration and Design UM and has since retired. But uh, there's a bunch of other things I wanted to get to that I didn't, including fashion icons with Fern Malice. So let's talk a little bit about the series you do with the Street. Why how did the idea for this come up? And and tell us a little about the program. Well, I'm very, very proud of this, this series, almost as proud as I am of having created some week UM because yeah, now it really means a lot

to me. And when I left i MG Fashion, when the tents we're moving from Brian Park to Lincoln Center, it was time for me to leave. I said, you know what, I've done this for almost nineteen years at Brian Park. It was my baby. It's moving to a new location, which I wasn't basically so thrilled with. Neither was the industry. And it's out of there already. UM, I said, you know what, I needed break and so I took I took time off. I was happily able

to do that. UM. And I experienced what I call and it's in my book, because I have a book called Fashion Lives from this series. Um, what became the coffee phase of my life, which meant that all of a sudden, you know, I'm I'm trying to just chill and enjoy my house in the country, and and I'd get calls can I meet you for a cup of coffee? I have this idea I want to talk to you about. I have this new project coming. Can we go out for a cup of coffee? My friend told me I

should talk to you. You're a good one to help me on this new startup. Can we have a cup of coffee? I said. Everybody wanted to take me out for a cup of coffee. Nobody wanted lunch of dinner. It was just coffee. I was crazy. Um, And it was oddly enough, over a cup of tea and a good friend of mine, a photographer, Timothy Greenfield Sanders, who said, I'm going to introduce you a friend of mine, Betsy, who's uh, who handles speaking tours and all this. You

have great stories and to tell about ps. She introduces me to Susan Engle from Street wy Is ahead of their programming, and we have a cup of coffee and she said, you know, we've always loved fashion up here at the Y. We've done one offs, you know, Diane from Furstenberg has been up here or this one or Calvin through the years, but nothing that's been concrete, like a series. And they do have some very good series there. And for people who don't know, the sty is truly

the pre eminent cultural and stitution in New York. I mean President's prime ministers, authors, actors, celebrity, anybody doing anything that matters it gets up there and and is interviewed or talk to somebody in their auditoriums um, it's extraordinary place. You can go there three fifty days a year and

every night there's something politics. It's unbelievable. So Susan said, would you be interested interviewing fashion designers and doing something with us, and I said, you know, I'm the usually the one being interviewed, but I'm sure I could string together some intelligent questions. We named it Fashion Icons with Fern Malice, and she said, let's see if we can get some good people. So the first one was Norma Camali and there's an old, old pal and I think

one of the most creative designers in the world. And the next one was Calvin Klein. And when I had Calvin on the stage, I said to him, one of my first questions to him was, why are you doing this. You're out of your business. You sold it. At that moment, it was like over ten years ago. You have nothing to sell and pitch, no new fragance, nothing coming out.

And he said, I'm doing it because you asked me, and I'm doing it for you, and I'm doing because the why you know, he talked about important to why I was and I was like, good answer. And that kicked off this series where people buy tickets and it was like eight or nine hundred people in the auditorium and it's been Calvin and Donna and Tommy Hilfiger and Tom Ford and Mark Jacobs and Andre Leon Tally and Diane, and it just goes on and on and on, and

it's now in my eighth year. I do maybe it depends. Scheduling is a nightmare some years six or seven. Some years it's ten. Some years it's three. You're not too far away from a hundred. Well, I'm forty forty three, and that might get I have a lot of people on the horizon, but dates are not confirmed. But I mean, in addition to the people I mentioned, I've done Leonard Lauder,

you know who was one an extraordinary interview. Mr Valentino, Victoria Beckham Emon and Cindy Crawford and the Massonis and UM, Alexander Wang and Zach Posen, and I mean just the whole, the whole group. I just said our Arthur L. Gore, the photographer UM. In December, I did Peter Marino, the architect who talk about retail is retail important. On one Street in Manhattan, from Street from Madison to Fifth. He's designed the Fendi store, the Door store at the Chanel Store,

the Zena store, the Louis Utan store, and Bulgary. It's one architect and his office has done all of that in a block. I mean, it's extraordinary and creating experiences that make you want to come in those stores and spend time there and buy something. So you know, it's it's the with and breath of the industry. Um. So if people want to find either the video or audio of fashion icons with fern Malice at where do they

go from? You can go to the Wise YouTube channel and put in fern Malice and fashion icons and you can get, um like a three to five minute clip. Um, the whole interview is not available. Well, when are we going to make that available? You know this whole podcasting thing is going to be big one day. We have to have you actually and how long did these conversations? Minutes? An hour? Usually an hour and a half. And uh and I'd say a life story. It's it is the

definitive interview of these people's lives. I walk out of there and you learned who they are? How how did you become this person? You grew up Most of these people grew up with nothing and had started a business with nothing. And I'm fascinated, how do you build a billion dollar business? How did who did you fire? How did you when you made your first sale? Well? Who who? So the tables in did you need to hire ten people. How much money did you need to borrow? How do

you do this? How did it go to the next step, and how did it go to that? You know, to hear Michael Cores tell his story about being on the you know, ringing the bell when the Stockholm public you know, and his mother looking up at him at the podium going fiction tie you know, I mean, you know he said it was better than his bar mitzvah, you know, and I mean wonderful stories of these people's lives and careers.

So we have to get this stuff. We have to free the content, get it out from behind wherever it is. And uh, well, we'll help you do that. That'll be easy enough to do. So I only have you for a limited amount of time, and I wanted to get to my favorite questions I asked all of my guests. So we'll put you on the hot seat for a few minutes. Let's start with an easy one. Tell us the most important thing people don't know about Fern malice. M hmm, what is the muscle? I mean, not really

a soft inter real pussy cat. People think, um, your reputation as you're a tough cookie, but you're telling me. It's marshmallow inside. All right. That's good to know your assistant is laughing at behind your back, just so you know, do you agree with that? Um? Who are some of your early mentors who influenced your career? You know, I'd have to say my dad, my uncle's um my, my sisters, um, you know this family around me. There were there were a few in business, but I never was that like

satched myself to somebody. What about designers who influenced the way you look at clothing and fashion? All of all of them, all of the above, Madelin, all right here, So, um, let's talk about books. Not the one you wrote, will include that in all of our links. But what are the same some of your favorite books? What do you read to relax fashion? Non fashions? You know when I reach relaxed or you know, three or four newspapers every

every day. Um. But you know, one of my favorite books of all time is a book called A Thousand White Women. It is so good. Get it on Amazon one White Women. What's it about? It's about a time when President Grant was the president and and they were looking to assimilate some of the Indian tribes and bought

and take their land basically. Um, so there was a deal struck between um, some of the Indian chiefs two give well with the chiefs and the administration to give them the tribes a thousand white women to become part of their tribes, to assimilate the cultures. It's quite fascinating. But I've also just starting the Becoming Michelle Obama's which is best selling book, and I think it was released in either end of November December. And I went to

see her talk at Barkley Center and she's great. That met her and a couple of times since extraordinary, very nice short dress. Well, she was very important to the fashion industry, was she? That she wore so many young designers and unknown designers and up and coming designers and established designers, and she fashion was a huge messaging for her. When was the last time we saw a first lady who did that? Is that Jackie? Oh? Jackie was an important one. Um, then it wasn't oh, but it was

jack Jackie Kennedy. Yes, Um, I think Michelle o Well, you know Nancy Reagan had her fashion moments with Gallanos and certain designers that she wore An Arnold skazzi and um, but Michelle Obama was a champion of the American fashion industry quite quite fascinating. Um, so what are you excited about in the fashion industry right now? M'm I'm excited about seeing what's going to be coming up in the next few weeks and how things are going to evolve

and change. And is this an important important fashion especially important fashion show for or is this Well, it's the first of this year, it's the you know, it's the fall collections that we're going to be seeing. Um, I mean, it's fashion Week, It's there's another one going to be in September. So so tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from the experience. You know, I wish, I I can't. I don't remember something where I could say I really failed at it. I mean

I've been a good, good girl. Um. You know, well, I don't mean a bit. I mean sometimes you try something and it doesn't work out, and there's a life lesson in it, not necessarily good versus bad. But gee, that didn't turn out the way I was hoping. But here's my takeaway. The most recent one was the chicken soup I made last weekend, I bought a really expensive

free range chicken and it was tasteless. So the soup wasn't as good as my normal chicken soup really because it just didn't have all that fat and it just you know, the chicken didn't fight part the same way, So that was a mini failure. Um, what do you do for fun? What do you do outside of work to either relax or you know, stay busy and interested? What? What? What non fashioned stuff keeps you occupied? I have a house out in the East End, and I love going

out there, thank god. It keeps me sane and it's not a lake, and I just so enjoy being there. I'm a very good gardener, and I do like cooking on the weekends in spite of my not so great chicken soup. Have you become a year round hamp tonight, because that's been more and more totally Yeah, for years. I think it mostly became a much more year round after nine eleven, I'd say, but I think about because people started moving out there and getting out there and

living out there. But um, yeah, I've had that house since I was at the cfd A, and I remember a moment when I thought I can't do this. I'm not married. Why am I buying a house by myself? And I said, what am I going to have at the end of this ten years? Here? A lot of clothes to show for it? You know, it's the best decision I've ever made in my life. So what sort of advice would you give to a millennial or a recent college graduate who's interested in a career in fashion?

I'd say why, Um, I'd say, you know, like every other thing you're interested in, become a sponge, just absorbital and just shut up a little bit and listen, you know, just listen. You don't you don't really have the answers to everything, um, as much as they think they do. Uh I and I think we need to at some

point also listen more to some of these millennials. And finally, what is it that you know about the world of fashion and marketing today that you wish you knew thirty or so years ago when you were really gearing up your career. It's hard to say, because I wish thirty years ago I understood technology the way we have it now, because it's it's it's just so different. But if I could have done something differently, then I would have learned more about finance and business and numbers. I mean I

never took that very seriously. I always said, oh, I'm on the creative side. Let somebody else worry about that. And I think that's important to always have an understanding and a grip on the financial implications inside of everything you're working on. Quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Fern Malice. She is the head of Malice LLC as well as the creator of Fashion Week, runs the Fashion

Icons with Fern Malice at the Street Why. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and look up an Inch or down an Inch on Apple iTunes and you can see any of the other two hundred and fifty or so of these conversations we've put together over the past five years. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions. If you're not happy with this show, well right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net and tell us why. If you are happy, go to Apple iTunes

and give us a good review. We'd appreciate that. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff who helps put together these conversations each week. Medina Parwana is our producer. Caroline O'Brien is my audio engineer. UH Taylor Riggs is our booker. Michael bat Nick is my head of research. Attica val Brunn is our project manager. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to Masker's Business on Bloomberg Radiom