Celebrity Chef Bobby Flay: Masters in Business (Audio)

funny story. So the whole concept of this show is find somebody who's a master in their area, whether it's investing in finance or or business people like um, Jim McCann at Flowers or Mark Cuban who owns the Dallas Mavericks, and and find out what makes made them the terrific business person they were. And I've been trying to do more and more non finance people, and I thought of Bobby Flay. I don't know what made me. It pop into my head. Maybe it was something I saw on television.

And so I had reached out to his people and they're like, yeah, sure, he's got a new show and he's got a new cookbook. He's happy too, And so we had this really fascinating conversation. Of course, on the way home, I think of a thousand questions I should have asked him as a restaurateur instead. Instead, I have two cookbooks of his about his famous restaurant, Mesa and this wonderful dish that my wife. I took my wife there for a birthday years ago and she has not

stopped talking about this dish. And he actually walked me through the through the recipe for that dish. But here's the most fascinating part. The guy is just such a real, genuine person and such a true New Yorker. After the show, we walk him down to the um out of the building. Where you going, Bobby, I'm taking the subway down to my office. Bobby Flight takes the subway. Yeah, it's the most efficient way to get around the city. So we

walk across Lexington Avenue. People come, Hey, it's Bobby Flay, like the crowd season. He says, Hi, shakes the hand. The three of us head down into the subway. He gets on a train and goes off to his destination. It was really quite fascinating that as as real a person and as true and New Yorker as ever you want to meet without further ado, Here is our conversation with chef and respirator Bobby Flay. This is Masters in

Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is a well known chef, author of a cookbook, restaurateur and star on the Food Network. Bobby Flay, Welcome to Masters, and I'm so glad to be here. Your introduction is going to take a while. Let me give you the give people the quick version of it. Um, you became head chef. First of all, you drop out of high school to start working in restaurants. You're seventeen. You be come head chef at Miracle Grill, which was

a lovely little place in the village. Then you open your first restaurant, Masa Grill. It gets named Restaurant of the Year by Gayle Green, you win the James Beard Foundation Rising Star Chef of the Year, and ninety three you now host or have hosted or specials on the Food Network and Cooking Channel over thirteen shows. How many cookbooks is this right? Over twelve cookbooks? Yeah? I think

it's thirteen four. And you've, of course you've won three Emmy's and you're the first chef we've had on on Masters and business. You know, I followed your career accidentally. I don't even know I was following your career. When I was in grad school. The only nice restaurant I could afford to take my then where grad school was here in the city was that a university. The only restaurant I could afford that was nice was Miracle Grill,

and that was late eighties, early nineties. It had this delightful outdoor garden you'd of a garden and a fantastic brunch and one day we just asked somebody, who's the chef here? Oh, some guy named Bobby Flay. Okay, that's nice. So when Mesa opens, we're one of the first people there.

I remember taking my wife. I think it was hurt I won't say what number, but it was a round number birthday, and there was a dish that I have a bunch of your cookbooks and we still can't find this dish, which was clams in a curry thaie coconut sauce not but it's not in the Mesa cookbook and it's not in the I don't know if it's in any of your cookbooks. That's a long time ago. That dish has haunted me for years. Is it didn't have like a wild rice waffle with it. No, it definitely didn't.

It was almost like, you know, you go get molt a Belgian place and they pretend to have a tie sauce. It was like that, only delicious. So you you, I don't know if you remember that specifically. We'll talk about the development of food. So so I mentioned earlier, dropped out of high school at seventeen, found your way to restaurants. When did you first fall in love with cooking? It's hard to say, really, I think, you know, I remember cooking with my mother when I was a kid, you know,

at home. Um, the very first thing I remember cooking was um mighty fine chocolate pudding, okay, right from the package, from the package, and you all you would do is you get a sauce pan and put some milk in there, you know, you measure out the milk and you would bring it to a skald and then you would add the sort of package of chocolate powder or whatever was in there. And then I remember just uh stirring it with a wooden spoon and watching me get thick and chocolate.

And I thought Wow, that's this is what cooking is. It actually changes the texture and the look in the flavor of things. And that's what led you to molecular astronomy. Yeah, I don't do astronomy, but but um, you know it's it's my very first cooking memory. But like I used to like make a lot of deviled eggs at home, and you know, things like that, I mean, really simple things. I didn't know that I was really interested in cooking as a profession because, frankly did no precedent for that.

I mean, cooking was only thought of as a blue collar profession. Even when I started cooking professionally, more like a short order chef than a real we just you know, there was no such thing as as a celebrity chef, for a chef that had any sort of name or knowledge. I mean, besides, I'm sure you know some some French chefs who own the top restaurants of the day. But um, in terms of like a network dedicated to food and things like that, that that was way far in the future.

And as this an urban legend, you're eight years old and you're folks, as you only want for Christmas, and you said an easy bake oven. Now that's a real story. The urban legend is how good I am in the basketball court. Not true. Now, I used to actually I was. I was a good ball player. I mean, I'm a I'm a city kid, so I grew up playing a lot of sports outside in the streets and UMT just yeah, I mean, I love I played ball all the time. We were talking before the show about what happens, and

you hit a certain age. Right before I got married, I was playing on the courts over a thirty third and second by the turns to the tunnel and I twist my ankle and I walk home and I'm living and my wife said, that's what you've done with ball. I I quit. I quit it forty two. Um, And honestly, I think about it every day because I love playing basketball. Used to we used to play in a restaurant league, um at Basketball City on the West Side, you know, at Chelsea Piers. And it was it was, it was.

It was great competition. And I mean I I I grew up playing basketball in my whole life, so it was it was almost like my my my renaisce my basketball renaissance. And then um, like you, um, I went up for a rebound and I came down wrong on my ankle and I I didn't really hurt myself. I just sprained my ankle and I was like, the next time, I'm going to be in a cast and I can't do this. And that was you know, it's it's a friend of a friend. I want to get the name right.

David Chang just to open a new restaurant, and we had said to friends, let's go this weekend. It's in Brooklyn, will go on Sunday. Oh no, it's closed. He's in the restaurant ball league he plays, so the restaurants closed on Sunday. Right, So some of these guys who are serious cooks also serious ball. Absolutely, So let's keep working our way through our list. Um. So you studied with some of the great chefs at the French Junary Institute, and you said, when you grew up, there really wasn't

a frame of reference for chefs. What is it that makes a great chef? Um? And you can answer your question the other way, what makes a chef great? If that's a uh, well, I think I think the original question is really the real question. I think you know, what makes a great chef? I mean lots of things. Uh. You know, the words chef really means chief. So basically, besides you being well, first of all, you have to be a good cook. Let's let's let's get the fundaments

out of the way. You need to be a good cook. You need to understand the fundamentals. You need to be a very good teacher because you need to be able to teach your brigade, so to speak, to pull off the things that you need pulled off in the kitchen. You can never do it by yourself as a chef. You also need to be a good leader. You need to be inspirational. Um. And you know, ultimately I think that um, you need to be dedicated and passionate about food.

I'm Barry rid Holts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Bobby Flay, best known for his work with Miracle Grill. Let's go down the list, nayso all of the shows on the Food Network. Let's talk a little bit about the business of restaurants. Since you are essentially a restaurateur, everybody knows it's a really challenging business. Most new restaurants don't survive

when they open up. What is it that makes it such a challenging proposition for a restaurant to become successful in New York anywhere, but New York City for sure right now? Um, it's is a real squeeze on on small businesses in New York City, especially the restaurant business. As you know, the ransom New York are spectacularly insane, just in the labor costs go go up and up.

Tip credit just got uh brush to the side. I mean, as it is the restaurant business in general, Okay, across the board, across the country, it's very difficult to make a profit unless you're unless you're slammed every single night. Okay, now bring it to New York with a rents are you know quadruple any place else? The labor costs are the same. Um, all the regulations, I mean, it just

makes everything really really difficult. I mean, frankly, I just opened my new restaurant, Gotto a year ago, and I looked at my business partner, who has been my We've been business partners for twenty five years, and I said, Lawrence, I just wanted you to know I want to open this restaurant really badly, but we're gonna probably lose money. And what does he say to this? All right, let's do it, because because it's important to us. We you know,

we really want we really wanted to open Goto. It was a restaurant that I was pining a way to open. And sometimes, you know, you do things not for the money, and and this is a perfect case of that, you do it for the love of So that's a question I was gonna ask you later, but let's bring it forward. What gets you excited about new restaurant? Um? Well, the energy? Uh, of course, going through the food. I mean to me, when I when I open a restaurant, it's food first.

So I come up with the menu and the concept first in terms of what I want to cook and what I want to serve, and then everything else sort of gets built around it. Then the then the design comes in. You know, I think about what the energy of the room wants wants to be, um, and then you know that those are the two most important things, and then we just sort of fill everything in around it. So it starts with the food. Then the energy is that is that the decor, the staff, the flow, what

do you mean it's all of it. But like when you walk into a restaurant as a customer, there's a certain buzz. Sometimes it's quiet and people the restaurantur wants it to be quiet. Sometimes it's really loud and maybe the maybe the restaurantur wants to be really loud, but the customers are sort of not sure if they want it that way. I mean, you have to take um, you have to take attack, and you have to stick with it. So, for instance, that Gotto, I wanted high energy.

I wanted to be bustling, but I wanted it to be controlled chaos. I didn't want it to be just I didn't want to feel like a nightclub. I wanted to feel like a really good restaurant that's kind of fun and has a little buzz going to it. And then the lighting is incredibly important UM, and that is not on my list. That's interesting. I have a list of things to ask you about what's most important in

a restaurant, and I don't even think about. When it comes to design, lighting is the number one thing, the number one thing for design that lighting, and we spent we spent a lot of money on lighting um lighting design UM. And if you go to Bar American, which is in midtown here, or if you go to Gatto, they both have these sort of orange glows to the room. It makes everybody look good, and when you look good,

you feel good. You know. I was at a restaurant not too long ago, and I won't mention their name, and it was very dim, and there's a fine line between romantic and too dark. And the waiters literally had these squeezy hand held flashlights. So when you couldn't read, everybody's whipping out their phones to read the menu, and the waiters come by with a flashlight, and I was compelled to ask, Hey, if the waiters have to have flashlights,

maybe that means something's wrong with the lighting in the restaurant. Well, that's just because you can't see the menus like me. But it was everybody. It wasn't just old people who were fifty, it was you walk in. I'm like, wow, it's it looks like the section is closed. It could be too people, could you know. I mean they're looking for that sort of mood lighting. But you know, I think that restaurants can certainly be too dark for sure.

And you're saying lighting is really very Lighting is important yes, exactly. So on a on a related note, so when you're looking to launch a new restaurant, and let's use Mesa as an example. So there's the Mesa that just closed in New York not too long ago. I think to make way for a condo. Is that? No, that's that boo, to make way for a condom? Mason closed because after twenty three years is that my rent was quadrupled? That's a lot. So you opened up a Mesa in Vegas

and the Bahamas. And so when you're opening out a place, when you're scouting a place to open a new restaurant, what is it that you're looking at? Is it just traffic or is it uh something more complex than that. Well, first, first of all, location is important. I don't care how good you are, how popular you are, Um, you want location. You know the you know the old sort of at

age location, location, location. When it's really true, when I open a restaurant and we're gonna spend a bunch of money to open a restaurant, I want every chance I can, So I start with location. Location is very important then to how the space feels. Um is it? Is it a space that we can actually design a restaurant that's gonna actually feel good when you walk into it. I don't like restaurants that where the ceilings are too low. For instance, Um, I don't like restaurants that that where

the rooms are broken up like one big room. When you can and when you walk in, the bar and the and the dining room have a have an affinity for each other. I think that it's really important, and their energy sort of bounces off each other. So let's talk about restaurants that aren't yours. What sort of rooms do you walk in and say, Wow, there's a really good energy in here. Keith McNally, do you know that I know the name? Okay, so he owns like Baltas

are he had Pastis Marandi. I eat in Keith mcnalley's restaurants more than I eat in any other restaurant besides my own. Actually, I don't really eat my own, but when I when I go out, I mean I'm in Keith mcdalley's restaurants. Because this guy, to me, he is a fan. He is he is one of the best restaurateurs in New York, and he creates an amazing energy and great um surroundings and it makes you want to

be there. And the food is really simple. You know, he's not reinventing the wheel by any stretch of the imagination. But but he but the food is always solid and good and you know what to expect, and they deliver on their promise. And I always feel good in his in his restaurants. So in the last minute we have left in this segment, what are the things? What is the most important thing that most restaurateurs get wrong? They undercapitalize. It takes that a lot of money to open up

a a restaurant. Well, if let's say you think it's gonna cost two million dollars, it's really four double whatever. You're double the time to build it and double the money to finance it. I'm Barry Rihult. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My guest today is Bobby Flay, restaurateur, host on the Food Network, Cooking Channel, uh, cookbook author, and let's get into the specific details. You've hosted more than a dozen cooking shows on the Food

Network and Cooking Channel. You have thirteen cookbooks published currently. Your shows are Bobby Flay's Barbecue Addiction and the Worst Cooks in America and you've won three Emmy's. And the funny thing is you began your television career back in

How does a chef find his way into television? Well, the Food network UM started in New York and as a startup cable company, and Mason Grille was what was one of the hot restaurants of that time, Restaurant of the year, the James Beard Award that was that was the pinnacle in New York back then. Yes, exactly, And so they were looking for people to come on the network, you know, and and frankly a lot of people were like,

what are they going to talk about? You know, for twenty four hours in food you know, they'll run out of things to talk about to anyway, Um, long story short, I saw it as an opportunity to to showcase, you know, who I was and what my restaurants were, because I knew that people all over the country would start watching this network. And so like when the family from Minneapolis is coming to New York for three days, they'll maybe they'll pick my restaurant as one of the restaurants that

they'll come to. It just puts you know, basically, um, people in there in your seats, and so I looked at it as a really good way to market my restaurants. But this has evolved until a lot more than hey, let me get some more butts in the seats. This has really become a second career for you. Yeah, it really has in some way. I never think of myself on television because I'm because the restaurants are so important to me that you know, and the Food Network knows this.

I mean, I've been on the Food Network for twenty years, but they're they're they're in second place. My restaurants, my kitchens, that's the place that I always want to be more than any place else. But the network obviously has become very much my family and has given me a fantastic platform for what I want to do and what I want to to try and experiment with. And the amazing thing is really food on television. What was Julia Child like nineteen sixty three? The Food Network has exploded in

popularity the past couple of years. It's it's really part of pop culture now. I mean I think that Iron Chef did that, you know, when I when I when I when I competed against the Japanese um Iron Chef in America. I think it's probably twelve years ago now. I think that that really changed the way people looked at food on television, and then that led to throw down with Bobby Flag and that ultimately Now, originally there

was a little bad blood between you and um the Japanese. Yes, well, and now you guys are supposed to be but now we're good friends. I mean, you know, it was just it was sort of in the heat of the competition, but you know how that goes, for sure, and uh, you had you had famously leapt up on the table and brandished your knives and they were offended by that. They were offended by um, a little cultural difference. Now,

apparently the cutting board in Japan is sacred. I didn't know that, did you know know until I read it and something you had written. Yeah, I said, no idea. So I had no idea obviously, And my sush chefs kind of lifted me up on the table. We we sort of made it. We were having a hard time for the hour, and we sort of came back at the end, got all the food done, and we were

just happy. They lifted me up on the table and lo and behold, I you know, obviously I insulted him, so I apologized and now it's all it's all good, so good too. So when you're um, how involved you in the creation of some of these new shows, because you've done a lot of these, it looks like you're trying a lot of really interesting things. Well, right now, I'm doing Beat Bobby Flay, which is my new show.

I mean, I created throw Down, I created Beat Bobby Flay, I create I create most of the shows that I do, barbecue addiction. So nobody's pitching you. You know, you're not like, I gotta take a meeting with the Food Network now we're gonna do for chefs. No, they I'm sure you'll see that soon. Um No, they pitched me all the time. I have a really good relationship with them. And I have a production company to ROCKSTRM Productions is my production company, so we produce, you know, a lot of my shows,

and we produce other people's shows as well. So what makes you decide to accept or or you know, give green light or pass on a show? What elements are you looking at? What factors? I'm looking for simplicity, And I think that a lot of times people missed that miss that the concept of a show is simple, that those are the successful ones. A lot of times they'll say,

just kind of what you did. We're gonna take Shark Tank, we're gonna take Iron Chef, We're gonna take this, and we're gonna we're gonna roll it into this this one show. It's gonna have all these different elements. But basically what happens is it gets muddled and you can't follow it. Beat Bobby Flay is really simple. Two of my friends show up, they bring two chefs with them. Those two chef go at it for twenty minutes. One of them wins.

Then that chef then tells me what their signature dishes, and we cook it for forty five minutes and there's a winner. That's it, and it's really simple. But what we do is we surround it with a big audience, um and it's got It's basically thirty minutes of pure energy. That sounds like a lot of fun. So now let's shift to publishing and cookbooks. In the last minute we have,

you've got a dozen plus cookbooks out. What drives the process of putting out a new cookbook and how do you develop new recipes basically either a new show or a new restaurant. Basically begets a new book, and there's a whole theme of cooking, and you can basically work your way through all of that in a single cook exactly. I have a show about brunch called Bunch of Bobbies on Food Network, and so in the fall, we have a brunch book coming out. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening

to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My guest today is restaurateur and Food Network star Bobby Flay. Before we talk a little bit about investing in restaurants, let me ask you this question. How does a kid from the city find his way into thoroughbred horse race? Uh, well, when you drop out of high school or you cut school, um in the eighties, you go to the aqueduct in

Belmont with your friends. That's what we did. I mean, we you know, we you know, we were New York City kids and you know, we we didn't want to go to school, so we went to the track. I mean, it's sort of like at that of the movie kind of story. And so I was always fascinated by My grandfather took me to Saratoga Springs, which is one of the most beautiful places ever. And I still go every August.

And then when I started getting a little success in business, I thought, you know, it would be really cool to own a horse. And I really, um, I've really gotten into in a big way. You know, I race and I breed horses. I have a lot of horses in Kentucky. And you've had a few big winners too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean if i've I've I've had a little bit of luck. It's just so much fun. And I love the social part of it. I loved getting dressed up

for the big races and throwing parties beforehand. It's just it's just one of those things that I think a city kid, Um, it's nice to kind of get out to the country every once in a while. And you know, and I go to Kentucky a lot, and I spent a lot of time there. I always tell people who are from the downstate New York region who have never been up to Saratoga. Man, hey, you have to get up there. It's unlike any other place. Yeah. It's actually six weeks from the middle of July to the end

of till till basically um Labor Day. Um. That there's a great race meet some of the best horses in the world, you know, show up there to compete. But it's just a great social environment and it's and people just have a great time. And the great thing about a horse racing is for two dollars you can have an opinion. Um. And actually, now you know, Governor Cuomo appointed me to the New York Racing Association board. So I've been trying my hand at that. That's a whole

new experience. That sounds like a lot of fun. You're you're gonna get involved in politics. UM. So let's talk a little bit about the business of new restaurants. How how often are you looking at new opportunities? Always, always, always looking at new opportunities, you know, Um, besides my Hi restaurants, I also have a UM, I have a slew of Burger places, eighteen bobbies, Burger palaces, you go, you got it. And so you know, we're constantly looking

to to expand that as well. And I think that's the one that sort of can grow from a business standpoint. I think that the sky's the limit there for sure. What's fascinating, and again, this is a business show. We see McDonald's running into a lot of trouble. And then we see places like Shake Shock, like five guys go down the list of all the non burger king slash McDonald's burger joints doing really well. What is it about

the simple burger that has so much room for potential growth? Well, first of all, um burger is such an American thing. It's something that never goes out of style. It doesn't um have any loss of gain based on the economy. It's always something that's gonna be um a popular period. And I think that, you know, as our taste change in this country for the better, people want better everything, including burgers, And so I think that that's that's some

of the struggles that McDonald's is having. That now you can get a better burger, you know, for for a value price, right, not a buck or two more money. You know, a meal at McDonald's is what five or six dollars when you come out. You shouldn't know, Um, when you come out of a place like Shake Shock, it's eight or ten bucks. I'm assuming you guys similarly, And I notice you guys do a lot of things. The burger of the month. There's a lot of a

lot of variations there that I haven't seen elsewhere. Yeah, and we you know, you know, unlike some of the other other better burger places. You know, we have handcut fries. I mean, it's the it's the real you know, French process of cooking French fries. Um. And you know, obviously are the meat is amazing. All of our ingredients are incredibly fresh. I mean, that's what people want to eat

these days. And if I can, if I can reach people who can't get to my high end restaurants, whether it's at their price point or they're just at it's out of their location, um, I can reach them through Bobby's Burger Palace. And that's that's really my goal. So you started that out in smith Haven Mall by Stony Brook University. What was it like first testing a new burger joint out in the bourbs like that? Well, that was our pilot store, you know, and um, it's uh

it was. It was a great testing ground, it really was. Um. You know, it's in a mall, it's out in Long Island, um, and people have really gravitating towards it. So how many of these would you like to open? Are you're gonna go for a hundred and more long term plan. I don't look at it that way. Um. Right now we have eighteen. We're gonna open another one in Maryland in a few months, and then you know, we're gonna do some we we want to go to them to the

Middle East as well and and open some there. But we have this is a big country, and so we want to go to places like Texas and California and open more in Florida, places that we haven't done yet. That sounds fascinating. And if you look at the success of some of these other burger chains, clearly there's a demand for higher quality, not quite fast food. Yeah, absolutely know. Shake Shack. You know they on their first day they were valued at one point six billion dollars, not to

Chevy No. And some people say, well, is it overvalued? I mean, frankly, who knows? I mean, but I think I think the most important message there is that it's a message that people are saying in the marketplace, is saying we we want better and we'll pay a little bit more for it. We saw that with Chapult, which was first bought by McDonald's and then spun out as a standalone and there's lines out the door constantly. We've

done a great job. It's clear that at least the millennial generation is much more interested in fresh food that willing to pay a little more, and they're really not McDonald's customers. So let's talk a little bit about how the Internet has has impacted the restaurant business. We have yelped and you could purchase reviews and yelp which has been a problem um for them. We have open table

Twitter blogs. How has the internet impact did the restaurant business? Well, I think the Internet first and foremost has impacted it from um, just from information. You know, obviously it's it's the information highway as they call it. Right. So now when people want to go to a restaurant, they go to the Internet and they check certain blogs, they check certain lists, and they see what people are saying about

your restaurant. UM, where the restaurant is. They're making reservations online more than ever, and so you know, obviously it's it's um. It's it's incredibly important and and and social media as well. Does open table work for the advantage of the restaurateur or is it taking money out of their pockets? I don't. I mean it's taking money out of our out of our pockets because we pay a fee, so it literally is taking money out of our pockets. But you know, I mean you pay for good service.

And I think that that open table is the way people at this point want to make their reservations, and so we make it available to them. Does it bring more customers in? Is it an advantage to a restaurant? Because when I'm as someone who goes out to eat a lot, when I look at a restaurant to get the phone number, I see open tables over there, I'd rather call directly than just click. But it's because you're old school. I do the same thing. Yeah, I don't know if it's old school. I just like, why am

I paying these guys two dollars just as happy? You know? Why do I am I gonna make? Look? I put myself through college and grad school as a waiter, as as a as a bartender, so I know how a little bit how the business works. And I'm always like, why is this middleman between me and the restaurateur? And how many people are they charging? How much it is all the time. Well, that's just the cost of doing business, I guess it is. And what about reviews, blogs, things

like that. Is that something that matters or is it not as significant? You know, the movie we just saw that was out last year was Chef with the famous scene with the meltdown. Obviously it's a gross exaggeration, but there's always a touch of truth. How annoying are some of these um, Yelp reviews and blog you don't know? To me, the problem with Yelp is that I don't even know. It could be some of my competitors writing reviews.

I mean, you still you don't know. So to me, it's like it's the last place that I look as opposed to, let's say, as the Gats, where I like. I like. I like the Gats because they do really um interesting stories and they have integrity. Um, there's a there's a there's one called Infatuation, which I think is fantastic. It's a couple of guys who have really built up their business and they're building it more and more, and they go into restaurants looking for the good. Now if

it's not good, they will tell you. Okay. It's not like they're just gonna only write good reviews. But but I like their attitude towards things. There were also some bloggers who go on looking for the bad because they feel like if they write a bad review, they're gonna get more clicks because it's gonna get noticed. Yes, because

people like negativity. But you know, I think that's unfair obviously, especially for restaurant tours who put up all their money and their blood, sweat and tears, worked their whole careers and then somebody's gonna write a bad review about them because while they can get more clicks on their on their on their site. It's not fair. No, that's not And look, you know, if you've ever worked as a as a waiter or a short order chef, it's really hard work. This isn't the sort of thing that you

can phone in. No. I mean in New York I think rub Street Is is a good one as well, But frankly, the New York Times is the king. Really when it comes to restaurant reviews. There is no more impactful review than the New York Times. It's not even it's not even nothing is in the same ballpark. So there's it's the New York Times, nothing else. Wow, that's amazing. And you know, even out on in the Bourbs where

I live, we were going to this local restaurant. It's called the Brass It's still called the Brass Rail and great burgers, really good food. I love their caesar salad specham wrapped around a romane lettuce and um. And then the New York Times review comes out. You can't get near the place months and it's even out in the burbs. It's really yeah, it's really amazing there. Absolutely. Um, let's talk, since we're in New York City, talk a little bit

about some of your favorite UM restaurants. And I want to get down and dirty. So other than your own restaurants, what's your favorite pizza here in the city. Uh pizza. I like Motorno. I think it's a fantastic napoleonon style pizza. UM. And how about your favorite uh burger joint? Oh? J G. Mellins everybody I grew up there. Oh really, my father's best friend owns it. So that. But but no, no, no, no no, let me tell you. No bias involved, no zero bias. You just love them burgers. And I get

it consistent. I get a check every time, So there's no like, there's there's no sort of nepotism. I mean it's but and you ask anybody if there's something about that burger, and just like you asked me about the shows. It's so simple, but there's something that hits the spot. We've been speaking with Bobby Flay, restaurateur, cookbook author, star

of the Food Network. If you enjoyed these conversations, be sure and check out our full podcast, where the tape keeps running and we discussed many more things in great detail. Be sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com. Uh follow me on Twitter at rid Holts. I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. This is Barry Ridholts.

You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I enjoy the podcast, as we were talking earlier, because I don't have to worry about commercials or the time or anything like that, and I could relax a little bit. Um I mentioned previously, I first started eating your food at Miracle Grill, which really stood out. That was that the first restaurant where you really took over a kitchen

and made it your own. Yeah. I was the chief there for three years and it was a brand new restaurant, and I stayed there for three years in the kitchen, and you know, it was a fantastic experience. It was also a delightful restaurant. I think it was first and sixth is that six and seven on First Avenue? And it was also one of the first times in New York City I had something with the Southwestern flavor. How did you come by? And that's really become your signature.

You worked with somebody who exposed you to that. Tell us a little a guy named Johnathan Waxman who now has a restaurant called Barbuto in the West Village, And if you haven't been there, go there. It's so good. Um he um. He was from California and in the early to mid eighties came to New York and basically brought California and Southwestern cuisine to to the East Coast

for the first time. Uh and he I worked in all of his restaurants, and I fell in love with like, you know, the you know, the fresh and dried chili peppers, and you know, blue corn not not in a bag, not in a tortilla chips, but like real blue corn meal and making dishes out of blue corn and all kinds of beans and limes and avocados and all those amazing ingredients that make up Southwestern cuisine. So I really decided to hone in on that as something that I

really want to to to research even further. So then I went to the Southwest, and I worked in lots of different restaurants, and you know, just for a few weeks at a time. So one thing about our business is it's very giving um and people let, you know, chefs and cooks into their kitchens just to kind of experience it. So you can reach out to a restaurant in Arizona and say, how you don't know me on Bobby Flay one day, I'm gonna be someone big in New York, but I'd like to work in your kitchen

for a few weeks, and you probably get a positive response. Really, So, how many different restaurants did you and what what was it? California was in New Mexico, it was mostly mostly Texas and New Mexico. I worked in about three or four restaurants over like, you know, two month period, just kind of hang out and see what was going on down there, and you really pick up the flavor of that cuisine and and then I came back and you know, worked at uh a Miracle Grill, and then and then I

opened Macy Relle. So the love of barbecue does that come directly from Texas? The love of barbecue is just I just like it. Well, listen, what's more primal than a couple of is throwing meat on an open flame. But you really have taken it to a whole different level. Yeah, I mean we can get into the whole barbecue versus grilling things. Okay, so let's let's talk about that. Well, do you know the difference between whether you're smoking something,

what's grilling in barbecue? What's the difference? Um? So, the one thing I know is you don't close the lid on the barbecue. You leave it open. Once you want the open flame. I'll give us you're smoking. I'll give you a simple definition. Go ahead. Barbecue is low and slow. Grilling is quick. So if I'm grilling something and want to grill a steak, you throw it on the grill, you cook it for a few minutes, it's done. Barbecue is like barbecue brisket or pork shoulder or ribs, things

that you cook really low and slow. Sometimes there's smoke on it. Sometimes there's not, but that's basically I mean, it's always there's always sa to smoke up. That makes sense. Where do you come on the dry rub versus wet sauce? Uh? I like them both. I like dry rubbing to create a crust and I like to finish it with a sauce. So you do both on the same meat. Yes, that that's that's one way to uh, one way to solve it. Um, what are the restaurant concepts are you thinking about going forward? Like?

Are you always you always have three or four restaurants out ahead of you. I don't know about that. I do want to you know, there's a possibility that I want to do the next version of Masa Grill since Macy Reill did close last year. UM, I miss it, you know. But at the same time, you know, it was twenty three years old and it was time to to sort of do the next version of it. So in some ways I might have been a blessing in disguise, just like Goatto is the next version of what Bolo was.

Um that closed six years ago when they knocked them building down. So you know, Gato is a Mediterranean restaurant. Obviously Mason Grille would be more in the in the south By Southwest vernacular, so that used to be on lower Fifth below. That's fairly fairly prime real estate. Can you now pop open a restaurant anywhere in New York and in a lower rent district and you're still gonna attract patrons or do you still need that sort of flow? I think I want. I want every advantage I can get.

It's too hard. It's just it's just really too hard. I mean, like you look at the restaurants in Tribeca. You know, it's hard to get to Tribeca, and I love going to Tribeca, but I would say that restaurants in Tribeca are at a disadvantage than in restaurant like say in Midtown or you know, or like even in NoHo or Soho, because there's just not as much traffic and it's not like the rents are that much cheaper anymore. There used to be this huge disparity that was a

lower rent district. You can't say that anymore. Now that's said, there were some very successful restauranents in Rebeca. You know, you talk think about Nobu Friends or Tribeca grill. You know, there's a handful of there's a handful um of restaurants in Tribeca that are successful, but not not dozens and dozens, and and that's a function of the locale more just

to look Asian thing. So let me ask you what surprises you when you open a new restaurant, because I would imagine because you roll out a lot of fairly creative dishes. I don't want to say out their dishes. You're never weigh on the fringe, but you ever surprised you roll out a new dish and it it flops, and other dishes you think, ah, this is the throwaway. I'll just put it on the menu and everybody's ordering it. I think that you put menu. I think there there

is some look. I think that you have to have a combination of a couple of things in your menu. You have to have some things that are crowd pleasers. So like, for instance, you know, you know people are gonna order chicken. You know people are gonna order certain kinds of fish like salmon. Um, you know they're gonna order a steak. But you also have to have some things that that um sort of add to the interesting part of the menu. So like you know, if I do a quail dish, I might sell five at night.

It's okay, it's not going to be the most popular thing, and I know it's not going to But for the people who want to try something a little bit more exotic or they don't want to go sort of down the sort of pedestrian lane, there's something there for them. And I think you have to have both. Do you do you ever get really surprised by something that you didn't think was gonna pop, that gets traction and takes off. Yeah. In fact, there's a there's a dish at um at Gatto,

which is a vegetarian dish. And you know, people are eating vegetables, ma'am, more than ever. Um And and as a chef, we have to make them more interesting. So for instance, um, we have a dish called um it's a piea, okay, and you usually piea has lots of shellfish and chicken and charizoh, and it's it's it's you know, it's got all these different proteins. We are. Paea is made with kale and wild mushrooms and crispy water chokes.

It's completely vegetarian sounds awful and you're telling me that's delicious. It's it's the number one entreeply listen to this, Okay, we've been open for it just over a year. It's undefeated every night, every single night, Um, since we've opened, it's been the number one entree every night. That's that's stunning,

that absolutely stunning. So now let's expand that. How often do you do something with a restaurant or you see a new restaurant and you say that's a slam dump that's gonna kill it and it flops or vice versa. You walk out of a restaurant and go, I don't know what these people are thinking, and it blows up. You know. That's that's that's the thing about the restaurant business. You can do everything right and fail. I mean I really and it's it's it's hard to even believe that

that's true. But the restaurant business is a very tough business. It's competitive, it's expensive, there's razor thin margins. Yes, and also you can do things not well and be really successful. I mean, we've all been to restaurants where like you like, this place is not good, but you turn around and the place is packed and there's a line out the door. So it's it's it's listen. I I don't pretend to

know or have the magic potion for successful restaurants. The only thing I you know, I'm a native New Yorker. I feel like I know how to feed New Yorkers and that's sort of how I keep it. And we're a fairly discriminating bunch, but we're pretty open mind. Did we tend to try a lot of different foods? Well, yeah, but New York has a lot of options, and so somehow you have to capture the customer. You have to capture their attention, don't let them keep it. How important

is repeat business to a restaurant. It's it's life or death. It's the life blood. It's the life of death. And you know, frankly like it got though it's a it's a very difficult reservation right now. Um. We we've been lucky enough to get some really fantastic reviews and buzz and people really seem to like the restaurant. So people are coming far and wide to eat there. They're making

reservations thirty five days ahead of time. Um, but I know that the core of my business there for the long term are the people that live in the neighborhood. So we really look to take care of people in the neighborhood. Like if somebody from around the corner um walks into the restaurant, we'll find a table for them. So do you expect that a hot restaurant eventually cools all has it becomes just a local neighborhood joint. It

has to the question. The question is, and you've seen this many times hot restaurants, you can't believe how hot they are, and then you look at them six months later and they're gone. The key is it's about I would say it's about eighteen months. If you if you have if you're lucky enough to have a restaurant that has some buzz and it's hot and has some good reviews, that around eighteen months, a lot of that sort of

just fades away. And if you can transition to then become a restaurant that people think of as one of their sort of local places, then you can have success and you you can actually run into an issue where people are even afraid to try, Oh, I'll never get a rest We don't want anybody to feel that way, So that that sounds like you have a a savvy approach. Um, let's talk about some other chefs. You mentioned one earlier

that you really liked. Who are the chefs that you think are underrated or underappreciated that you really like what they do? Uh? Underrated or under appreciated? M Well, we can ask the other question, who do you think is overrat um? That's not you know, That's why I asked the first question. I thought you would prefer that that's never happening. Um, I don't think any chef is overrated. I think that if you're a chef, like you've given your life to this business, it's like more powered to you.

You know, Um, who's overlooked? Who do people? Or let me ask it differently, what chefs out there that you found that you really like haven't been discovered by the masses. That's not none, none, no, especially because because now if somebody is really good, they get distarted. They get discovered in about thirty seconds because of all the blogs and the internet, social media, Twitter, So there's no more people toiling away in obscurity. If they're half decent, they'll be

found exactly right? Is that good for the restaurant and that's got to be good for chefs who are who in the past might have been toiling away in obscure. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's almost too much information because it's it's almost hard to separate at all. But it's I think that in general, I think that you know, um, it's just making everybody better. So that's one way the industry has changed, the rise of social media and everything else.

How else has the restaurant business itself changed. I think it's harder to make more. I think it's harder to make a profit, um, just based on what's going on in terms of you know, you mentioned earlier in New York City is making it harder to be a restaurateur.

What are some of the things that the city is doing. Well, it's a city and the state really, but it's you know, the the tip credit um for for explain that people used to service used to get paid a low wage to it dollars an now and they would actually earn most of their living on of course, because that's how that's how service makes basically. Has that changed, Well, it's it's going to add hundreds of thousands of dollars of costs to a restaurant tour um depending on how much

business you do. And it's just makes it almost impossible two um to turn a profit. So what's the thinking behind that? Because a decent restaurant with a good waiter is going to make a couple of hundred bucks a night easily. What's the thing behind it? I have no idea. It just doesn't make any sense. Well not to me.

I mean, obviously it was done for for a particular reason, but I just I just think that, um, you know, listen, it's it's a it's a political issue obviously, but I I just you know, I when I look at it, I'm thinking to myself, Okay, we're giving hundreds of people jobs or across the board in New York, you know, thousands and tens and tens of restaurants in New York. Yeah, I mean you can't I can't imagine how many jobs

that restaurant tours are giving out there. And so that so that should we should be in some ways celebrated for that. Instead we're being penalized for it. And it just makes it almost impossible. You'll see restaurants closed because of it, be close of this yeah, absolutely that And and is Is there any pushback? Is there any Backlas show, Well, there will be pushedback. It's supposed to start January one of next year, and you know, we're we're basically looking

at lots of options. Has there been litigation filed against the city for this? Um? I don't know, and it'll be interesting to see, uh how this developed. So so that makes it more difficult to run a restaurant in New York City. How do you like the the A, B, C D restaurant ratings which we now see in windows?

I like the A, B, C D restaurant ratings. You know when it first started, Um, there was a lot of controversy about you know, uh, the city going after every single restaurant, failing them, then passing them and making us pay fees. I mean again, it was another controversial thing that happened. Um. I think that I think the Health Department has now got it right. And for people outside of New York City listening to this, every restaurant in New York gets a health grade and it's right

in your window. It's an A. And let me tell you something, you don't have an A, R, A B. People aren't going in there. That's true. You know, so you have it's either a or your toast. Yeah, but you know, listen, I think that what's happened now is that, um, I think the Health Department is sort of seeing like that they're basically making judgments. Of course, there's always a they can always get you on some technicalities that have nothing to do with you know, with really serving clean

and healthy food in a clean and healthy environment. And so um, I think that they're taking a much bigger picture of you now, and I think it's I think it's actually working out well. So this is actually a positive. Yes, but it started out it was a disaster. When the disaster disaster, it was a mess. There were a lot of good restaurants that we're not getting as well. They they they they took Thomas Keller at per Se, who was you know, charges five a person. Basically they took um.

You know, I can't remember what happened, but they either gave him a really bad grade or they're closing down

to something ridiculous. And then and then there was like outcry from everybody, like the New York Post road some editorial, I mean, and they find only sort of took a look and got their act together said we we we need the bigger purposes to clean up the troublesome rest exactly, not take the top to your restaurants that are doing that, are actually have that have great technique and set the standards kitchens and cleanliness. And look, anyone who's ever worked

as a waiter can tell horror stories. Of course, milk left out overnight, and that that's probably the least terrible thing you could say. So let's let's keep plowing through some of my um questions about your cooking. So, I know you started you fell in love with Southwestern cuisine, but how is your cooking evolved since then? Well, now I'm cooking Mediterranean food at Gato, So I mean, I that's a big change. I do a little bit of both. I mean, you know, I love I love traveling in

the Mediterranean. I love you know, Italy and France and Spain and Greece and you know, on and on and so I love eating that way. So I decided to open a restaurant of how I want to eat today, and that's what Gato is. So how often do you actually all the cooking You're you're back on the kitchen, Like if I walk into Gato on a Friday night, Bobby Flay is making my dinner, really, and that's really not the case for a lot of other chefs who

do a little bit of everything. Yeah, I mean, like I said before, my most favorite place to be is the kitchen, and so you'll you'll find me my restaurants almost whole the time. So what else were your big food influences? Meaning? What? So? What did this? Clearly this just doesn't pop out of nowhere? Your parents, friends, family, like what first started pushing you into um, becoming a chef wanting to run restaurants? That that just doesn't spring out of nowhere. I need a job. So that's how

you first started working in the restaurant. You left high school, you started working and then you ultimately someone said I gotta send this kid to French Cornia Joe Allen who I mean famous Broadway restaurants still open. And you know, Joe gave me my tuition to go to school. I was working there. That was my first job, and then he said, you know there's a new school opening up called the French Culinary Institute and you should go there. I was like, well, I don't want to go back

to school. I had just gotten out of school. I was happy to be out of it. But anyway, I actually had to go back and get my my g e D, my equivalencely diploma in order to go to school there because but he had to see something in you to get you to uh just he didn't just

randomly pluck you from the line. Yeah, I mean, I think he thought that, you know, maybe I could be an asset to him later on, and I listen, he The thing about Joe Allen that I was taught and have taken with me is he doesn't do everything for the money. He does things because he feels like doing it and he feels like it's the right thing to do. And that's what he did by handing me my tuition

that day. That's an amazing, amazing story. So we're talking about some changes in the industry, it's not just the internet. What's your opinion on food trucks. I love food trucks, but like like anything else, is good food trucks and not good food trucks. But I think it's really cool that you can get like, you know, Korean tacos that are delicious on a food truck, or you can I mean you name, you name a cuisine, it's a truck.

And I think that that's great. If you go over to sixth Avenue in the mid forties, you'll you can walk four or five blocks and come across a dozen different It's amazing. And you know what it does. It gives people who have the passion for this an opportunity for not so much money to actually go out and you know, put their own shingle out. And it's not running a restaurant for two million dollars. You get a

truck and and basically you start promoting. And I love that, and I think that that's a great way for somebody to start a business. Is that potentially an entree into the restaurant business for this for sure? I mean there's there's been plenty of stories of food trucks turning into uh, you know, Brooks and mortar actual restaurants. And then I want to I want to talk a little bit about the cookbooks, because we really have glossed over that. What's

the process like of creating a new dish? Is this experimentation? Are you looking at a dish and saying, you know, I could twist this a little bit and make it more interesting. How do you come up with something that's unique and special and not just you know, grilled chicken. You know, I have this team of women in my

office known as the B Team. I don't know if you've looked at my website, but they are, um they're all they all have their own lanes um as my assistance, but they all share one thing, which is they they all love the cook and they all love food. So in my office, all we're doing is talking about ingredients and dishes and restaurants and on. I mean, that's basically the conversation that happens. Like it'd be like a Bloomberg. I mean, people are talking about finance in my office,

We're always talking about food at some level. So those conversations spur all kinds of things. They spur new shows, new new dishes, new idea is when I need to, like you know, I'm working on my spring menus for God doing for Bar American right now. Like I'll sit down with them and I'll brainstorm with them. Those That's how books and shows and new dishes, that's how it all gets done. How often are you coming up with new dishes for for the restaurants? Is this seasonal four

times a year. So and once you get a seasonal menu, does that continue unchanged or will you move stuff in and out? I move it. I moved it every day. So you tried different specials. You see what works, you see what doesn't work. That's it's an ongoing problect, completely ongoing. And the last question that has been tormenting me, why can I find the tormented the mesa recipe for the tie clams in in coconut curry. Uh, I don't know,

is it it's clams? What was it? Just clams? So this was I want to say mid nineties, maybe even later. What was the dish though? So it was an appetizer. It was a bowl of clams in a thaie coconut broth and it had a red curry. It was sort of some fresh salantrou uh, some scallions and look, I've had variations of that dish in a million places. My wife to this dish. Oh you're seeing Bobby Flay today,

ask him about that coconut. But what you did something with that that was unlike anything we've had else Well, I mean it's a it's a lot of like aromatic, so it's like fresh ginger, garlic and onions, and then some chilies, and then you sweat it with some white wine. Let the white wine reduced alow way down, and then red curry paste, a good quality red curry paste. Let that cook for a little while. Then you add a bunch of coconut milk, um, and then let that cook

for a little while. And then some some clam broth as well, and that becomes the broth. Then you strain that out and then you open the and you steam the clams in the broth. You cover it and then um, as soon as the clams are open, they're cooked. Then you put them in the bowl. You take the broth, add a whole bunch of fresh silancho and scions onto it, and then just pour it over the over the clams and you're done. How did you get all that? So? I served with some bread, some toast, some fresh some

fresh bread with us. All Right, we're down because I know I have to get you out of here sooner rather than later. We're down to our last Um. A few questions that that dish. By the way, I'm not exaggerating. My wife, it's got to be ten or fifteen years ago. She still brings it up. She's like, be sure you ask him about that, because we've never been able to find I have a stack of your cookbooks at home.

I brought two of them in today. We've never been able to find that any of your cookbooks and we can. It continues to haunt me that that one dish you know how to make it? So all right, well, now she knows how to make it. I'm I'm in charge of grill. She's in charge of of that sort of stuff. So the one key question I asked everybody, and and take as much time as you are, as short as

you want with this. So what do you know about the cooking business, about business in general, and about the television business today that you wish you knew twenty five years ago when you started all of it? I knew nothing. I mean I still know nothing. But I mean I'm gonna stop you right there and say I think you know more than nothing. Well, I mean, listen, it's let me. I'm gonna rephrase it. I'm gonna ask you a different question. What do you wish you knew twenty five years ago

would have made your life easier? Um? Well, um, that's a very tough question. Isn't that a good question? I mean, honestly nothing. I mean, let me let me tell you, let me tell you why. Um. I've had a wonderful career. It's been so rewarding and so incredibly enjoyable that I think that not knowing things and learning them along the way has been really a big part of that. The

journey has led you to who you are too. Yes, I I Um, I function with goals in front of me, and if I had if I just knew everything, then I wouldn't have as many goals as I had then. And so to be able to kind of, you know, try to reach those goals and in some ways surpass them, in some ways not meet them. Um, that's been the fun part of it. As you call it, the journey, I think that that's that's what it's that's what it's

all about. So you come out of the French Culinary Institute, do you have a set of goals when you graduate? You're saying, this is what I want to do. I want to be my own chef for a few years. I want to open my own restaurant. I want my own throat. I want Bobby Flake TV. Well, no, the TV was never thought of, I mean because there was no precedent for it. So I never thought I'd be on television cooking. But I always wanted to open a big, bustling restaurant that had a lot of energy, and that

turned out to be Masa Grill. So that was my only goal. And what how does Masa do out in Vegas? I would imagine that's a hop and joint out there does really well. We've been opened ten years. There any plans to open another one outside of New York City? Uh, it's definitely possible. But you know, I like New York and I like being in New York. And so you're in New York, Irish kid, grew up in New York. You strike me as a you know, really deep down inside sort of New Yorker. Oh no, it's not deep

down inside, it's it's throughout me. Yeah, you got a touch of a New York accent. I mean, you know, my favorite thing about New York is the subway. You know. We came here from my office and someone said, oh, we're gonna be late. No it's three minutes. Yeah, I'm ont park and oh no, no, we're gonna We're gonna trust me, and it's right up in this building. You pop up and it's it's I find it like fascinating. I'm just wondering if they'll ever get around to finishing

the Second Avenue subway. They're probably gonna close it up again and start again in ten years, right and going down forever. But you know, my most valuable thing in my while is my metro card. That's really fascinating. Bobby, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. You've been huge fans of your restaurants for as far back as I can remember, going back to Miracle Grill. Uh. We've been speaking with Bobby Flay, restaurateur, cookbook author, food

network star. If you enjoy this conversation, look up an intro Down an Inch on iTunes and you'll see the rest of our shows. Um be sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com or follow me on Twitter. I forgot to ask my Twitter handle at Ridholtz. You're on Twitter at b Flay at b Flay To check out Bobby Flay. You can also see Bobby Flay dot com. You have a list of all your shows, you have recipes, you have cookbooks, everything else,

I'm Barry Ridholts. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio