Cal Turner Jr. on the Promise of Family Business

and wisdom and just homespun, down to earth common sense. Uh. He tells wonderful stories about how his father and his grandfather moved into the retail business, the trials and tribulations of that, and of running a family business with all of the riffs and sibling rivalries that creates. He is just a very straightforward, honest person who has a lot of interesting things to share. I think he is not only humble, but knows how to express that in the way that gets the most and best work out of

the people who worked for him. So I found this to be a charming conversation, and I expect you will also with no further ado, my conversation with Cal Turner Jr. This week, I have an extra special guest. His name is Cal Turner Jr. And he has been CEO for Dollar General for thirty seven years. Uh. He began in the family business in nineteen sixty five, and after he served a few years in the Navy, he came back to the family business to work in the warehouse sweep

the floors, eventually rising to the chief executive position. Dollar General under his reign, expanded from a hundred and fifty stores and sales of forty million dollars to over six thousand stores and sales and access of six billion dollars. He is now retired and is the author of My father's business, The small Town Values that built Dollar General into a billion dollar company. Cal Turner Jr. Welcome to Bloomberg.

Thank you, Berry. The way you talk makes me interested in hearing what I'm going to say, as I think a lot of people are. So let's let's go back to the beginning. You start in nineteen sixty five, literally sweeping the floor, as I wasn't exaggerating, right you Right, You picked up a broom and that's where you began. I swept floors long before nineteen sixty It was in the early fifties. I was born in nineteen forty. The company was born in January. The company was born three

months earlier. So the company and I are about the same age. So um and the company grew up with you. When when you began sweeping floors at that early age, did you know the family business was where you're going to be working the rest of your life. No. I resisted it. I saw how hard my father worked. I knew that he was sweating. He'd wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweat, afraid he couldn't

pay off the banks. He was over expanding. The timing happened to be right because it was right after the Second World War and it worked. It did work them. Now, your grandfather started a business, Jail Turner and Son wholesale um before the war. How what happened with that? Well, Luther Turner, my papa was wonderful. He only had a third grade education, Barry, and he had three younger siblings, and his father was tragically killed and Luther was eleven.

Now he was the head of the family. The farm was heavily mortgaged, and he had to make it all work out for everybody. Wow, And that's at age eleven, at age eleven with only a third grade education. And what Luther had going for him is that he assumed, since he only had a third grade education, that everybody he met was smarter, and he should learn something from everybody he met. You know, regardless of your education. That

sounds like a intelligent, humble approach to dealing with the world. Well, it certainly was his, and I consider Luther Turner to be the smartest person I ever knew. So what gave him the courage to start a company. He's recently married, he's got a newborn baby, he's broke. You mentioned he wasn't you know, all that wealthy when he launched the company. What made him think I could do this? Well, I don't know if he ever thought I could do this.

He was hardest working man I ever knew. He tried to learn from everybody, and he tried to learn from life because he was so limited in his education, and he saved something out of every check. Good advice these days. If Luther Turner hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been the financial backing my father needed when both of them started the company. They started the company because they found a big brick building at half price. A Turner will

buy anything. Yeah, I can appreciate that deep down inside the turn of family, our value investors, aren't you? Indeed? So so he finds this brick building. Where was it located? And what did he think the potential clients hele for this building could be. Well, the building was in Scottsville, Kentucky. It's a third of the way north of Nashville, Tennessee, on the way to Louisville. And he thought that would

be a great place for a wholesale business. Actually it was a terrible place, but it's where he found a building for half price, and and that that was it. J. L. Turner and Son Wholesale Dry Goods. And what became of uh jail Turner and Son Wholesale Dry Goods. Well, it had one employee that was my father. And my dad would take samples of the merchandise as a wholesaler to all the retailers in these little bitty towns in Kentucky

and Tennessee. And after the Second World War he found that they were not interested in buying more of the ladies panties that he had. The prices had dropped after the war, and he wanted to sell them some more, and they said, no, cal we're not going to buy anymore until we sell what we've already bought from you. He said, But the market's going down. You need to lower your cost and buy some of my panties. No,

they wouldn't do it. So he came home and he said to my grandfather, Daddy, we have to go into retailing. We've got to be directly in touch with the customer. And I think that's a good principle of retailing, stay directly in touch with the customer. So all of this leads to your tenure at the company, which will discuss in a minute. But what motivated you to say I'm retired. I'm kind of board playing golf for tennis or sailing or whatever. I know, I'm gonna sit down and write

a book. What was the motivation for that? Well, that's a bit of a long story. The first book I was involved with, the publisher asked the senior pastor of our church and me to write a book on followership from the perspective of the preacher that was his and the practitioner. That was my part book. And in doing that book, uh, I met the ghost writer, Rob Sembec, who became fascinated with parts of my story that couldn't go in that book, and he'd say, we'll put those

aside for your book. Well, It took him two years to convince me to do a book, and then it took both of us six years to write it. But that's the result of it is my father's business. Let's talk about this as a family business. Most family businesses don't make it to the second generation. What made Dollar General the exception my loving father. I give him all the credit. I got the affirmation of the real cal Turner. I was junior, but he was the real cal Turner.

And he would say things about me, like, well, cal Jr. Is smarter than I am, And that would prove who's really smart. It's the father who says that about his son. Know when he will work the bajeebers out of himself to prove that his father's right. It sounds like your dad was a good manager of people and children. He was.

And I would be sweeping one aisle in the warehouse and he would convene his associates in the next stile I had just swept, and he would say, have you ever seen a floor swept as well as this one? And cal Jr. Was in the next ile, just sweeping away and grinning from ear to ear. That's fantastic. That's a good father, and you don't know that he's doing this on purpose. No, and everybody else there was kind

of smiling. Look what he's doing here. And and that's the only job I had in the company of the many I had that I know I did well. Well, you did pretty well as CEO. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. Well, thank you. Let's talk a little bit about the whole concept of dollar pricing. What made Cal sr So adamant that we're gonna sell nothing from more than a dollar? And that's that what was

the thinking behind that. Cal Senior was a country boy who observed what the city boys did in retailing, and he noticed the Louisville and Nashville, Tennessee department stores would run big, full color ads once a month dollar days sales, everything priced on the even dollar. And he knew those city boards were making money with those sales, or they wouldn't spend that much money on the ad. So he got his group together and said, I have the idea

for a new concept, a new kind of store. It can be a dollar store, and the slogan can be every day is dollar Day, and we can make retailing simple. We can make value popped. For the customer, because we'll sell everything for a dollar. You do know that one dollar is the best price point God ever made, and that will be what will build our store around. What do you think? And they were unanimous call it won't work. Everybody hated it. Yeah, he said, well, I'll tell you

what we're gonna do. We're gonna take a store where we have failed operating a junior department store, Springfield, Kentucky. We're going to open a dollar general store. And if that store succeeds where we previously failed, that's a pretty good test. And so we opened in Springfield, Kentucky. He got his friend in Nashville, Tennessee, who was stuck on pink corduroy, to cut that corduroy up into men's pants.

Pink corduroys one dollar one dollar. Now, yeah they were pink, but yes, the farmers would buy them at one dollar. Somebody visited Springfield, Kentucky and said, it's amazing. This whole town seems to have a pink you about it. And there's a whole those those brawny farmers were in pink cardiu roy pants for one dollar. So he worked directly with manufacturers to come up with ways to create merchandise that could be sold profitably at a dollar as opposed

to what can I go out and buy that? Absolutely, and that was a brilliant merchandizing strategy. Start with the customer in mind, and work with your vendors to create a value the customer needs. Let them be your partner. My dad believed that vendors were great partners and that was an opportunity for development of the company, the partnerships that you form with vendors. Even so, the first store where the previous General store had failed, opens up with

the announcement dollar General every day is a dollar sale day. Well, the previous store was probably Turners Department store or something like that, but it it hadn't turned the profit. It hadn't turned the profit. And this new store had the yellow and black sign that said Dollar General Stores the town's most unusual store. And how long was it before everyone realized, hey, this is a really good formula. About four days? That was it. Let's send out how long

it took him to open the store. And that's how long he gave me to open a new store when I first came with the company. Four days, not from start to finish from the start, away from you gotta build it absolute start. No, no, you you release an existing but you pay him a dollar a square foot. Right, So you'll take any building they've got, and you'll unload fixtures and merchandise on Monday and Tuesday and start putting it all out on Wednesday and Thursday and have it

opened Friday morning. Thank you. And of course my stores looked as if I had opened them in only four days. But nobody they worked. The price was great, and and so the first store that was opened after how long did it take before you have to check your seats? You have to check the was it apparent from day one where their lines out the door? How quickly did everybody realize this is a much better formula than than

than the department store. The store when it first opened was so full of customers that they had to close the door. So it was instantaneous, and they as they would let two customers out, they'd let two waiting people in. And that care it's its own buzz and the next thing, you know, So you worked with your dad for a long time, what was it like working with your father?

My dad was absolutely wonderful. He was an only child who seemed to be adopting more brothers and sisters all of his life, and he had in mind from the very start that I would be to the one to run the company after him. I didn't have that in mind. You had other siblings, obviously had. There were two boys and two girls when I was the oldest boy, and I was the one who got his name. And so therefore you with a natural person saying yes to take the nancial But I've always referred to him as the

real cal Turner because he was. Let's talk a little bit about your role as CEO. What did you like best about doing that job? What brought the most fun to you a CEO? The people's side of the business. I was fascinated with our customers. When I had clerked in our store. I had discovered that hard working farmers, we're smart as they could be. They had to survive, and I was convinced that my dad was right in saying we have the smartest customers of all because they're

struggling and they have to be smart. And so my idea was that we could recruit great associates or employees from that customer base and they could help us to build a company that would really succeed because we build with associates who understood the customer. They helped us to understand us they were they were the customers essentially, and I realized that problem solving genius exists where the problem does. Those are the people who can help you figure out

answers that you need in a retail company. What was your least favorite part about being CEO? Well, that's um, let me think what my least favorite part was. Oh, I know, my least favorite part was having to fire somebody. Everybody the least favorite part. I like everybody, and I want everybody to like me. And um, every now and then someone doesn't work out. You have to make a tough decision. That's right now. At one point in time, the company was on the verge of some really serious

financial problems. Tell us a little and you discussed that in the book. Tell us a little bit about the background to that and how you avoided Chapter eleven and what you had to do. Our company had over expanded and we were actually in trouble as a company, and this large public company had the problem that the CEO and the CEO didn't agree on change that needed to be undertaken fast and tell us exactly who the CEO was. The CEO was my younger brother, Steve Turner, So not

just a random person, this is your kid. Oh yes. And in the book I described that as life's toughest decision, and it was for me, the decision to fire my brother. It was hard, and I was aggravated at God for my being in that the decision making dilemma. Absolutely, and and my prayer became very irreverent because I told God exactly what I thought about him or her as I was having to go through. Then. Right now, your church going, god fearing man, you talk about um your revelation in

the book and when God first came to you. How do you go from that to being angry at God? That's so inconsistent with everything else I've read about you. Well, the God I worship knows what I'm thinking even before I think it. And if I'm angry, how dare Cal Turner Jr. Speak in in sweet holy language and his prayer when God already knows what I'm thinking? So I have I have to have the integrity even with God, especially with God. Okay, that's fair. So how do you

go from that to reaching the decision. Hey, kid, brother, this ain't working. We got to move on. Well, it took our family between six and eight months to process it. Because our whole family processed, that is sure. And they were all hoping Cal Jr. Would get over this and did he? He did not because he read some scripture that said I am the vine and my father's divine dresser. That which is dead, he cuts away, that which is fruitful,

he prunes so it'll bear more fruit. And I thought, thank you, Lord, one brother has to be cut away, and this brother has to be pruned and be more fruitful. And I've got my marching orders. Thank you. So how did your brother take this? And did that cause a rift in the family? That didn't heal for a while. Of course it caused a rift, of course it did. It was painful, It was hard on everybody. But my brother actually helped me to do it. And how is that?

He said, Now, Cal's Jr. This is my family business too. If if you do this, you're going to deny me my birthright. But brother, you'll have to step up to the plate and fire me and live with that the rest of your life. And I said, I do. Some people use that to get married. I used it to get divorced from my brother in the business. And what's the happy ending at the end of the happy ending is that Steve Turner blossomed in his independence of the family retail business and he proved who he was and

what he could do. And I am so proud of him. And that wouldn't have happened if that really tough decision hadn't been made. But I'm convinced because the decision was based on scripture, it was made well. So everybody loves a happy ending like that. It took a long time, a long time. Your dad was essentially um, your mentor and your teacher. What did you run up What did you learn about running a business from your father? Well, I learned business from my father, Barry, but I learned

leadership principles from my mother. Oh really tell us, and from all the women in my life. For example, that's very interesting. When I was a teenager, my mother would often say to me, son, for a good boy, you get into a lot of trouble. My mother taught me to separate the person from the problem, and people can come together to solve the problem better. So when I got into business with my dad and something would go wrong. He was of the old school, and he'd say who

did that? And I said, I'm not gonna tell you, Daddy. He said, do you know who did it? Sir? Tell me, no, I'm not, daddy. I threw my mother at my father. I said, now, Daddy, we're not gonna say who did it. When something goes wrong, We're gonna say what happened and who needs help to fix it? Because anytime something goes wrong, Daddy, there is never any one person. Sure, several people were involved.

So let's not look for one person to blame. Let's build a company of problem solvers where people established relationships to help each other. And my dad would say hmmmmmm, and I could I could see from the expression on his face that I had not yet made a complete sale. Did he realize you were basically channeling your mother back at him? And oh no, I didn't tell him that. I was young and green, but I knew not to

spring my mother on my father. But that was a very pragmatic approach to problem solving, making it about the issue, not the person. Yes, if you have a person problem, well that's a whole different conversation. But if something just happened to go wrong, let's fix it rather than make

it about who did what. Well, the personal problems usually result in something going wrong, But you can solve the personal problem better if you all concentrate on the problem, not the person that That makes a lot of sense. So you ran a public company for a long time, do you Let's go back to the day the company went public? When did When did you go? I p O December of nineteen sixty eight because my dad just decided it was time to take Jail Turner and Son public.

Oh and by the way, Son, we're going to change the name to Dollar General Corporation. Oh Dad, here, we're taking Turner off of the name. I kind of hate that. Yes, our company needs to be identified with our stores. So Dollar General it was. And he said, you take it, you run with it. So we went public. We had no chief financial officer, we had no consolidated financials in the company, we had no budget. But Cal jr. You've had accounting courses and you can handle Wall Street, so

you take it and go public. Well I'm glad I was naive enough to think I could do it, because I had to do it. So we went public and in January somebody said something about an annual report, and I said, what is an annual report? They explained what it was and said, okay, well I'm the only one who can write it. So I went in my office and closed the door and sat down and wrote the first annual report. What about annual meetings with shareholders? How

how did that go? Yeah? Well in the early day. Well, we had them in Scottsville, Kentucky, and we invite everybody to come to Scottsville, Kentucky. Not many showed up. Well that's where the company was headquartered, so why why wouldn't you? We had it in Scottsville, Kentucky. We had to grow up as a public company. We had to grow up as a family business that could learn the best way it could be professionally managed. There was a lot of

trial and era, a lot of hard work. But we had wonderful people to help us figure that company out. So you had to get a CFO, you had to get ahead of investor relations, you had to get a marketing What was that process like adding these people or not? No, we didn't have to get them my dad. My dad thought I could do whatever needed to be done. That shows his overcount for the in his son. And so we evolved and those persons were added in time, but

not right away. Normally companies load up with those folks before the I p O. It took years and years before these people showed up. It did, indeed, it certainly did. So you were wearing a lot of hats. You were acting as CFO liaison to Wall Street investor relations. What job weren't you doing? I can't think a single job I wasn't doing, and I think that's why there's no hair on top of my head now. But who better to be CEO than someone who knows literally every aspect

of the company. Well. I had had most of the jobs in that retail company myself, and I was not good at a single thing I did except sweeping the floor. And I developed a respect for the people who do those jobs well, and I said, look, we all know how I got this job. I'm the boss's son, I'm over my head and I need your help. I respect what you do. I like how you get the work done in this company. Let's learn together, and you have my commitment that we will share the success with you

if you help us build this company. I love the philosophy and I have to adopt that that that sounds like a very realistic and practical approach to getting the best out of the people who are working for you. Well, it was my approach at being over my head, So it comes from the place of honesty. But it also happened to work out well. Yes, and and they believe me because I think they knew I was over They knew you were telling the truth when you said I

don't know what I'm Yeah, exactly. That's fantastic. So you go public. When you came in as CEO, there were a hundred and fifty stores. What was that expansion process like up to as many stores as as the company has now. Well, we could open a store in less than a week, and if the store didn't work, we could close it in a day and move on. So you're willing to throw stuff up against the wall, see what worked, and if it didn't work, shrug and move on.

And if it worked, you could put more resources into this and we would do the occasional acquisition if we could get good store leases in the process, more places to open our store. And my dad would always be the great buyer. He'd buy all the opportunity buys and we'd be overstocked with whatever he'd bought. So we had

to open more stores. Yeah, yeah, And he used to laugh about how how bankers, how retailers could pull the wool over the eyes of bankers by saying, look, if I can open more stores, I'll have more places to sell my merchandise. If it doesn't sell here, I'll sell it there. Well, if it doesn't sell here, chance there. So you mentioned acquisitions. I'm assuming part of the reasons to go public is to use the stock for these acquisitions. Yes, you get a new group of companies, a new group

of stores, and new group of managers. So you're also hiring talent as well. How did that that acquisition process work over as many years as you were deploying that. Well, it was always based on the marketing opportunity afforded by an acquisition prospect. Could we get stores where the leases would work for us? Yes, and that that was our entire basis for doing that. Location didn't matter. You didn't

care like any town, any population. Well, that evolved. My dad used to think, our our prices and merchandise are so compelling that we can open a store anywhere. And some of the buildings, at least you'd say that about them. They were just in places most retailers wouldn't pick. And as the company evolved, we got a little more particular about where we would put our stores. But he still only wanted us to pay a dollar a square foot per year? Did that? How long did that work out?

How long was that price point able to do well? Two or three years? That was that? Eventually the landlord started raising, uh, study raising, Well, you it's supply and demand. There's there's there's no supply of opportunity a ty to open store at a dollar or square foot anymore cal sr. So you had to actually start paying up for that. Was there any methodology too, we want to expand either geographically east or west or what was the thought process?

Where were you looking or was it just traveling around the country working with your partners, your vendors. You would say, hey, this is an area that looks ripe for acquisition or expansion. Well, we wanted to open the stores where we understood the customers. So they were primarily in Kentucky and Tennessee at the time. And and yet opportunity to expand elsewhere was compelling, and and we would we would go where we could get

the cheap ramps. So who was your competition in those early days that was around the same period Walmart was blowing up. Well, we always considered our competition only to be everybody else who was in retailing. The entire retail sector was your college. Yes, and and the landscape of retailing um provided whole kinds of competition. And there's a lot There was a lot of carnage among retailers. There

always has been. If you don't stay connected to the customer as a retailer, and if you aren't meeting a customer need with your store, your days are numbered. And that's very sage advice. I have a ton more questions for you. Can you stick around a little bit. We have been speaking with Cal Turner Jr. He's been CEO of Dollar General for decades. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and check out the podcast extras where we keep the tape rolling and continue discussing all things retail.

You can find that at Bloomberg dot com, Apple iTunes, or overcast wherever final podcasts are sold. Be sure and check out my daily column. You can see that at Bloomberg dot com. Follow me on Twitter at rit Holts. I'm Barry rit Halts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. Cal. Thank you so much for doing this. I am enjoying this tremendously.

I have a bunch of other questions to get to, but I only touched upon something that you spend some time talking about in the book, and we really didn't get to on the broadcast portion. And it's um your spirituality and how you had a moment that change your whole life, and you spend a lot of time in the book discussing that. Tell us, I think you were eleven years older old, So tell us about that a

little bit that I was intrigued by that. It's interesting how Luther Turner's life changed at eleven, and how Cal Turner Jr. How the life of Cal Turner Junior changed at eleven. It was a summer Sunday evening, and I was sitting in the beautiful twilight on my uncle's front porch across the street from our church. I was waiting for my parents to pick me up, and in that still wonderful twilight time, something came over me that I cannot explain. It's nothing that I came up with, but

it happened to me. And it was based on the words of the old Rugged Cross and the conviction that while it was wonderful that Christ had died for everyone, he had specifically done it for cal Turner Jr. And it was a big wow that changed my life. I didn't know what that meant, but I knew from that

time on my life would be different. Now that I'm seventy eight and looking back on it, I think it meant that I was always supposed to be asking the right question of life, and I was forewarned that if I followed my Lord, I would have a cross to carry, and so I have to ask what was your cross to bear? Well, my cross was splitting the family and the company by firing my brother. That was um the best example of across us. But now that I look back on those rough times in life, I find myself

more blessed by them than the times of success. Well, success is easy, Failure is hard. Failure is hard, and sometimes it takes failure to learn lessons that should be learned, which only failure can teach, so it's it's biblical, a little not quite cane enable, but the fight between brothers is fairly biblical. Years later, how did that resolve? Writing this book, my father's business has been additional healing to

the relationship between brothers. My brother loves the book. He does, he does, and how I described the dilemma that we all faced. He had a role in life to live, and I had one to live. And when I read Timothy Keller's book The Prodigal God, I learned about the sin of the older brother. In that parable about the prodigal son, the prodigal son gets forgiven, not the old not the older brother. Who is who is self righteous? And who's the people pleaser? And that's who I was.

I was a terrible older brother. And that helped me to put it all together better in a way that gave my younger brother the credit he deserved. Did he realize how painful the process of firing him was to you? He obviously knows how he felt. Was he aware? How it you sound like? And what I read in the book it you agonized over this decision, and it haunted you for a while, even though you knew it is what the camp be two bosses. It had to be done,

and even still it haunted you for a while. Yes, but my brother understood how hard it was on his older brother. That's why I said, you're gonna have to fire me and live with that the rest of your life. And I do. I still feel the scar. Sometimes you learn more from your scars. So how long was it before the family rift began to heal? How long did it? And it's always continual healing, But when did you first start to say, all right, we'll get by this. Well.

To me, the healing began when my father called me about twenty four hours after learning that I had fired my brother, and he said, I haven't slept since that call, son, But I realized now that just as an animal cannot live with two heads, neither can a company. And you did what you have to do, had to do, and I'm with you. You have my support. That helped the healing to begin. Did you reach out to your brother

afterwards and said, here's what we want to do. I don't want this to cause a permanent A permanent wound for the family is how we can heal. I did reach out to him. It wasn't immediately done, though, because more healing in our rapport needed to occur before I could even do that. A little time in space has to allow. Sometimes sometimes you have to be sensitive to the time that's needed to invest in a situation or syndrome. Need time time can help that That makes perfect sense.

By the way the book is filled at these lovely um. I don't want to call them stories because they're they're true, just it's it's a a lovely set of vignettes well told. And it seems like you had a very fascinating career running the family's business. Thank you. I've never made anybody I consider equally blessed as cal Turner Jr. Well, that that's a charming sentiment. Let me get to some of

the questions I missed during our our conversation. There's a bunch of things I wanted to UM wanted to ask you mentioned UM when I was talking about the time the company was on the verge of chapter eleven, that the underlying cause of that was overexpansion and rapid expansion. So once you came to realize that was what you what what had put the company in danger? How did

you get past it? How did you resolve that challenge. Well, we had been doing strategic planning for years, but we weren't able to implement it very well because we had two camps in the company, one for each brother, and we couldn't coordinate the implementation. So after the younger brother left the company, we could get on with what we had said we wanted to do with the company, and

we could, but we had to move fast. It's a good thing that the whole management team had been doing planning because I understood our agenda and we could implement it faster. So I'm curious about one thing, and I'm sure listeners are as well. You said your brother blossomed after this event. What did he go on to do. My brother developed um the Gulch in Nashville, Tennessee, which is an amazing development of the downtown Nashville that we all know today and that has Steve Turner and his

son Jay all over it. They did wonderful things for Nashville, and so he became a very successful real estate developer. He did, he did, indeed, and he also blossomed in philanthropy. He and his wonderful wife, Judy have done amazing things for the not for profit community UM for downtown development and they are deservedly very loved in the community of Nashville, Tennessee. Now you mentioned philanthropy, I'm confusing. I don't remember if

it was you or your father. Mother began taking a few shares of Dollar General stock and donating it to a foundation each year. Am I misremembering that? I don't remember that that that he did that my uh, my dad would would give some of his stock to all the cousins year after year after year. Uh. Philanthropy for him was more of a family thing I miss from im. I might be confusing the two in my haste to get the book. Well, I can tell you what my dad did in philanthropy. At the end of his life.

He woke up to the blessing of philanthropy because he saw his kids doing it and and he wants conducted a census of all of the churches in his hometown of Allen County, Kentucky. Found that there were ninety one of them, and he gave a thousand dollars to each church, and they were overwhelmed because more than half of those churches had received the largest contribution in their history. And he said, son it's amazing. Look how cheap philanthropy is

in Scottsville. You can't buy that kind of good will in Nashville, Tennessee for dollars on. That's amazing. He's a value investor even when it comes to indeed, that's charming. So you avoid chapter eleven by by taking these two camps and creating one camp with it. How long did it take to come out of that period of Hey, things are really uh, things are really dicey. Okay, now we feel like we're on from our financial footing. Well, it took a good three years before I could see

our turnaround. We're working three years. That's a long time. Felt like an eternity. Our company had gotten bigger. You can't turn a bigger company around as fast as you can a smaller company. And it's interesting how that happened. My dad and I had another fight because Um, the son of his pet flunked a drug test. Um he was the only district management the company to flunk a drug test. And my dad said, you're not gonna fire him because his father has done more for this company

than your whole management team put together. But I did. I did fire And what did he say, well, he was just royally ticked off. And I decided that I can't keep going through father and son fights. I know how I can control the old man. So I'll go to Otsville and I'd say, look, Daddy, my brothers and sisters don't want to sell their stock until I sell mine. I'm willing for us to get family to come back together. You and I keep fighting. It's like a dagger to

my heart every time we have a fight. Let's agree that all of the turners will sell this company. And I knew my dad would say, oh no, and then I'd say, well, then you behave and did he He said? I said, so let's sell the company, Daddy, And he said okay, And I said okay. So he called your bluff, he called my bluff. And I said, well, all right, Daddy. What I have to do now is to share that

with the management team. So I'm going to go back to them and suggest that they come up with the compensation plan to make it worth their while if we successfully sell the company, because something needs to be in

it for them to shore. And so I went back and they came up with a plan that I said, I don't think the board would ever approve this, but we it was taken to the board, the board approved it, and somehow the turnaround of that company that wasn't yet working started to work when all of senior management got that motivated to make it work. So, so what are you saying that incentives matter and when employees feel the own a company, they perform better. Exactly exactly, That is

a fundamental that sometimes we miss. It's easy to to overlook, especially when things are going well. It's only when things start going poorly that we start thinking, what do we what do we forget about a good observation good observation? So a question I have to ask you, given the nature of dollar general and the fact that you're saying every retailer is a competitor, there has been an ongoing um let's call it income inequality or wealth inequality that

has ebbed and flowed over the years. During the Great Depression, it was a very, very big chasm, and then in the post War War two period the middle class flourished and did very well. And over the past let's call it ten or twenty or maybe even thirty years, that rift has widened again, and it's bigger today than at least according to some data, it's bigger today than it's

been since the Great Depression. What does that mean to you as somebody who worked in retail, and as somebody who is spiritual and and is concerned about the welfare of his fellow men. Free enterprise needs to be free, and there are inequities that occur from time to time. And yet if the market can have its influence on

human activity, it can be self correcting. We found that building a business required our offering opportunity to develop to our customer base that could become our associates and build the company, and they could. They could grow and develop, and their financial well being would be enhanced in a major way the more productive they became. So if the money rewards productivity, then it's good to have more wealthy people based on their being productive. It works, it does work.

It gets yes, it gets out of balance. Life is always out of balance. A real leader tries to figure out the balance that he needs or she needs to work on. And this this ebbs and flows. It gets better, it gets worse, it goes back into that's the cycle of business, of life, of everything. Yes, yes so, and if without getting to um clich seven fat years, seven lean years. That's what eventually, if you wait long enough, it all comes back around, I think. So, So let

me ask you some of my favorite questions. These are what I ask all of my guests. A lot of these I don't know the answer to one or two. I think I could guess the answer to um. Tell us the most important thing that people don't know about you, Well, they don't know the grounding of my faith and the central and importance of that to my life. But we we have talked about that. You write about it extensively in the book, but you don't wear it on your sleeve.

It's not you don't be people over the head with it. I wear it on my sleeve more in the book than I ever have. That's one of the nice things about retirement. You don't have to be so constrained about political correctness. You can share from your heart with the hope that you're doing that will help somebody else. And my book is an attempt to mentor the reader. I've had great mentors throughout my life. That's my next question.

Tell us about some of your mentors. Your dad, obviously is gonna be front and center and we've we've talked about them. My dad, my mother didn't know she was meant ring me when she was raising me. And let me interrupt you a second. Do you really stop and think about this for a second, because I'm just thinking about my mother. Do you really think she had no

idea she was mentoring you? Or was she just doing in a way that it took you sixty years to figure out she was parenting the best way she knew how. That's mentoring. And yeah, of course, and the best mentoring, I think is to a you get confused about who is helping whom because you're helping each other. And I love to be in those two way mentoring relationships. That

that's a lovely sentiment. What retailers out there and and people in the retail industry influence the way you looked at the business of Dollar General and anybody affect how you approached it or was it strictly Calcina there There were many of them throughout the history of our company. We observed successes among the competition, and um, there were some more successful now and others might be more successful later. And a good retail leader observes the competition and yet

does not copy that competition. Is there anything you can learn from the competition without copying them? Oh? Yes, But you know what you need to do is to learn how to apply in your company what that competition seems to do well in his or her company. But you've got to learn it through the eyes of your own employees and customers and apply it in your business model, in your business opportunity. It makes perfect sense to me. Uh, this is one of everybody's favorite questions because people are

always looking for new things to read. Tell us about some of your favorite books. Well, the book that I need the most of any books the Bible. Now. I tend to read books that are from really good thinkers that are based on the Bible. Earlier, I shared with you that Timothy Keller is one of my favorite theologians, and when he wrote that book The Prodigal God, helped me to figure out the problem I had as an older brother, and it helped me to bond with younger

brother and to understand life better. I like what he writes. I read a lot of Richard Roar of hen Now and I like Richard Rore's book Falling Upward. It talks about life having two basic dynamics. You start off building your container, you try to accomplish, achieve, succeed. You build the container, and the last half of your life you try to fill it with meaning and he he surmises that the person who works on that second half dynamic

early is more blessed in life. Try to get the meaning in the container as you're building it, and he he talks about uh, dualistic thinking and non dualistic thinking in a way that was a real aha to me. So much of life is compare and contrast. Put a label on this, put a label on that, And God, who made all of us, says, there's more to life than a label. There's more to life than a comparison. When when I pray to God about something, should I do this or that? God would say yes, and it

would tick me off. But you've said that several times, And I recall so I come from a fairly religious family, and I would have similar discussions with my father, and every now and then I get a headshake and say, you know, Lilisie on the blasphemy boy settled down, But you and I'm remembering conversations I've had you kind of make me think along the same lines of Hey, that's getting a little close to the edge, being ticked off at God or being somehow unwilling to accept your lot

as part of a bigger plan and and shaking your fist angrily at the skies. That's not the sort of person you are today? Or are you? Am? I am? I am? I miss reading your genteel southern charms as something else. Well, I'm still a person trying to get over himself and get out of God's way. Okay, but you didn't sound like you that way when you were younger. Well, and I don't mean as a teenager, I mean as

a forty or fifty something person running a business. Well, I guess um, I may have exuded more confidence than I really should have had. Um, certainly when we went public and I didn't know what in the heck I was doing. I had to project confidence while I was quaking in my boots. But what does that have to So take that to the next step. You're ticked off at God? You said, how does that square with um? Your your basic religious upbringing? I was always told that, Hey,

it's not for you to be mad at God. Who do you think you are? So that's kind of my background. How did how did you deal with that? Well? Well, then then I realized God was saying back to me. You know you were converted based on the Cross, and I told you you were going to have a cross to carry. I'll help you carry it, get with it, get over being piste off with me on life, and I'll help you get on with it in a deeper way. So yeah, I've sensed that God was saying, thank you

for being honest with me. I already know you're you're upset with me, but thank you for being honest. So you eventually came full circle and was able to to get beyond your anger and manage what had to be managed. But I had some real irreverent prayer life. And I've always called myself a backsliding methodist, but that that means I own my backslide in a way that helps me to bond with other backsliders, And that makes perfect sense

to me. So you, if anybody I can talk to about the sort of disrupted state of retail these days, you certainly have an interesting perspective. What do you think about the changes that are taking place with the Internet and Amazon and the new generation not really shopping the way their parents did. What do you think retail looks like going forward? Well, I've seen a lot of change in retailing in my thirty seven and a half years

in the Saddle, and there will always be challenged. There will always be retailers making it and others not making it. The ones that stay closer connected with the customer are going to survive. And for example, when Dollar General changed its mindset by saying we're not a retailer where customer driven distributor, that really got the company going. So you need to redefine yourself in almost any organization based on what your people can help you figure out would work.

They can help you figure out the next iteration of your company that you will all pursue together. When they give you the answer, they'll implement it for you very well. So tell us about and I You've talked about a few things with this, but I want to ask a specific example. Tell us about the time you you failed and what you learned from the experience. Oh well, I wish I could tell you about a time that I failed.

There were many times that I failed, and um it was every failure was an opportunity for me to apply what my mother said, for a good boy, you get into a lot of trouble. We have good people who who mess up, and the key to getting it right is to acknowledge that we have messed up in a way that helps us all to fix it. And from

every every failure was my best opportunity. It seems as I look back on life for for improvement, for to grow and to develop, and to reach out to other people and say, I really need your help here again, I'm a boss's son who's over his head and I need your help. I love. I love that approach. So outside of work, what do you do for fun? Well, Studying people is a delight for me. Everybody is one of a kind, and I get a kick out of

getting acquainted with somebody on a ten second elevator ruck. There. People are fascinating and if there's a way for me to make a connection with them that says you're special, I am blessed if I make that connection. Now, I enjoy I enjoy physical activity, so I work out regularly. I enjoy being outside. The turners came from the farm. I like getting out on the land. I like just

seeing whatever is going on out there in God's creation. Um, I've I've played tennis, I've played golf, I've I've done skiing, water and snow. All of these things I enjoy. But it is the activity that connects me with others that that is fulfilling. And life gives a lot of opportunity to be in partnership with other people. I am not surprised about that answer from you. That is pretty much exactly what I imagined you were quite revealing in the book. You know, it's why why didn't you just go on

and answer the question? Because sometimes I don't know, but I kinda I kind of read that into you. Um. So if a recent college graduate came to you and said, I'm thinking about a career in retail, what sort of advice, what sort of career advice would you give them? Well, I don't have any pet advice to give anybody. Um. I like to get inside of the person and and figure out what turns that person on, what turns that

person off? And let's let's talk about that and and how much of a turn on might retailing be for you? How much of a turnoff might it be? Are you a people person? Um? You mind hard work? How about long hours. What do you think about that? Can you have enough fun in retailing that you'll enjoy the long hours and the hard work, because that's what it is.

We found in recruiting employees to our store where we could often find the best employees by talking people out of coming to work for us, meaning you don't want to work here is let me let me, let me tell you what's Let me tell you what's what's hard about this job you're applying for. You have to work a long hours, You get the merchandise straight and the

customer messes it up and you have to straighten it again. However, if you want to be a part of this company where we give a better life to struggling people, you can feel good about the hard work you do. And then some people would be honest enough to say to themselves, I don't want to work that hard. Well, they're they're not a candidate for dollar General. If that be the case,

that that seems to work. Was it that you know today about retelling that you wish you knew thirty seven years ago or so when you were first getting into the business of managing a fast growing retailer. I can't give you a good aunt her because I'm glad I didn't know much about retailing when I went into it, because I knew I needed to get others to help me learn and we could learn together. So retailing is a dynamic that you have to be figuring out together

all the time. I love that answer. That's terrific. We have been speaking with Cal Turner Jr. He was the CEO of Dollar General and his new book is out and it's titled My Father's Business, The small town Values that built Dollar General into a billion dollar company. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. If you enjoy this conversation well, then be sure to check out the two hundred or so other such conversations we've had previously.

Just look up an Inch Down an Inch on Apple iTunes or overcast or Bloomberg dot com and you can see all the rest of the conversations we have had. I would be remiss if I did not thank the Cracks staff, my team that helps put together these podcasts each week. Medina Partwana is our audio engineer slash producer. Taylor Riggs is our booker slash producer. Michael bat Nick is my head of research. I'm Barry Results. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio