An Interview With Ken Feinberg: Masters in Business (Audio)

recent American history. He was the special Master of the September eleventh Victims compensation funds the BP Gulf Sentiment general motors. The pays are Boston Marathon, Barman, on and on down the whole list. And uh, I keep saying, I want to try and interview new and different people who might not be the usual economist, hedge fund manager, slash trader and go a loop will further Afield, And today we do just that. I think he's really a fascinating, fascinating gentleman.

The country really owes him a debt of gratitude. You may not know this, but he did the entire September eleven compensation fund pro bono. That's him and his office working for thirty three months really to to help resolve one of the great tragedies in recent American history. And he did it a great personal um psychological cost to himself and and no compensation. And especially considering the government told out seven billion dollars in in victim compensation, he

certainly was entitled to a reasonable fee. And and he decided, UH, as a patriot, this is what he wanted to do. This is how he wanted to give back to his country. And and that's really quite wonderful. I think you will find him to be a thoughtful, philosophical, interesting gentleman who who has just worked on some of the most amazing things in American history. So, rather than have me babbel without any further ado, my conversation with Special Master Ken Feinberg.

This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. I have a special guest. And when I say special, he is literally a special Master. One Ken Feinberg. You probably know the name, as I'm only going to do the short version of your curriculum vitae Special Master for the September eleven victims compensation funds. He handled the BP Gulf settlement, the g M ignition situation, the financial crisis known as the Paysar. We'll talk about why that's an

inappropriate name. UM Boston Marathon, one, fun Fund bombing, Sandusky, pan State, Newton, Sandy Hook. The This is just the tip of the iceberg. There's many more. I'm gonna start with a quote from the Boston Globe that says, if scientists ever perfect human cloning, they should make copies of Kenneth Finberg, the Brocton Native informer Ted Kenney staffer who has become renowned for allocating money wisely amid political and

emotional firestorms. Ken Finberg, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you glad to be here. So that's really quite an amazing curriculum, Vita, all the different things you've worked on over the years, and and we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about that. But you once said something and it contradicts some common experience I've had, So I wanna have you start out with responding to this. I always believed that anytime someone says, look, it's not the money, it's the principle,

it's almost always the money. But when that came up in the September eleven funds, you actually had an interesting quote. You said, it's not greed, but grief. Explain that money in our society viewed as a barometer or as a reflection on unanticipated, unpredicted grief resulting from the attacks that led to deaths and physical injuries, so that survivors, either of the attacks or the family of the dead, view the compensation as a reflection on the value of a

lost loved one in times of grief. And that's why it's almost like an emotional salve to what they've confronted and faced. So it's really in that situation, it's not about the money. It's about what they're feeling and how could you possibly put a number on this? That's right. The toughest part in all of these programs, Barry, that you referenced in your introduction, the toughest pot clearly is not calculating damages or the amount of money that somebody

should receive. I think that's not rocket science. It's done every day in our society. Or here, here's your earnings expectations, here's your life expectancy equals, here's an amount for pain and suffering ABC, and there's your award. No, it's the emotion that you confront when you sit one on one with people who have suffered horrible loss and listen to the tales of wool, validating the memory of a lost loved one, venting about life, sun fairness, that is what

takes its toll, not calculating dollars. Fascinating. So so we're gonna come back to more of that, but let's let's roll back to your early career. You spent some time as administrative assistant in chief of staff for U S. Senator Ted Kennedy. You graduate n y U Law school. How did you make your way to Ted Kennedy's office.

I was a prosecutor in the U. S. Attorney's office in the Southern District of New York and assistant U S Attorney, and I got word through the grape vine that Ted Kennedy was looking for an experienced criminal law practitioner to join his excellent staff on the Senate Judiciary

Committee Criminal Law Issues. So I applied. While I'm a Brocton, mass Native, and I applied to Senator Kennedy's office, got an invitation, met with him, he hired me, and that was the beginning of my five years with this extraordinary man. And you eventually become chief of staff for his Senate office. The last two years nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty I was his chief of staff in the U. S. Senate, running his operation. And I must say it was a

fabulous opportunity. So so here we are. You're you're now a known entity on Capitol Hill. September eleven comes along and uh the Attorney General the United States, John Ashcroft says to you, we need somebody to oversee this congressional funds. And you said, yes, I'll do it, but only if I can do it without compensation. What was the thinking that My thinking was? I thought it highly inappropriate to be making money off of the dead and the injured

resulting from a foreign terrorist attack. I thought it would be unpatriotic A and B. I thought that if I were getting money at the same time that I was calculating money for the victims and their families, there would be a firestorm that I'm making blood money. And I just thought I had enough challenges without being paid. But you did this for thirty three months plus, you and most of your office was running this that that's quite a commitment of time and energy and resources and money.

It was. But on the other hand, there never was and there never will be a nine eleven precedent like that one. And and I think what the country went through and is still going through in terms of UM, the implications of the nine eleven attacks, UM made it imperative that I step up and do my job as a public citizen. When you graduated at n YU, did you ever imagine you'd find your way to being a Special Master? Is this what you thought your your career

would be? Never? Ever? I am a post a child for the proposition that people should not plan their career more than one year in advance, and they shouldn't plan the life too far ahead, because life has a way of throwing curveballs at everybody and changing the best laid plans, to say the least. This is Masters in Business US on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridholts. I'm speaking with Special Master Ken Feinberg, and in this segment we're going to

discuss the nine eleven victims compensation funds. So obviously nine eleven is a horrific event. My office was headquartered in two World Trade. I was on in the Long Island office and had a running narrative from my head trader, who was um just outside the buildings as everything happened. Horrible seeing the entire country rallies around, uh up surge of patriotism. And now it lands on your lap to figure out how do you compensate three thousand plus victims

seven billion dollars? Where do you even begin with something like that? You begin with the statute. Congress passed a law signed by President Bush, and the law said that anybody who wants to come into this fund voluntarily funded

entire early by taxpayer public money. Anybody who wants to do it can voluntarily decide, and a special Master appointed by the Attorney General John Ashcroft will calculate individual awards, award compensation, and authorize the U. S. Treasury to cut a check over the thirty three month life of that statute, of that program, that was the whole statute. Under three years, seven percent of all the families that lost a loved one on nine eleven on the airplanes the World Trade

Center of the Pentagon came into the fund. Only four people decided they'd rather sue then come into the fund, and they all settled their claims five years later. There never was a trial on responsibility for nine eleven how many of the three percent that didn't come into the fund were people that you described as so grief stricken

they couldn't even sign. I think that was it, just just because you told the story of going to a woman's house and saying, I filled out the papers for you, this is two million dollars, just sign here, and she just said she couldn't do that. Woman was so grief stricken, Barry. She didn't sue either, She did nothing nothing. She and I believe a priest who lost a brother were the only two people that neither came into my fund nor

litigated against the airlines in the World Trade Center. So paralyzed were they by grief they couldn't do it either. That's just just uh, you learn, you learn in doing what I do, that grief can paralyze people. It can make them act so unreasonably. I said to the woman, Mrs Jones, you're gonna get about three million dollars tax free, set up a fund in your son's name. Go away, Mr Finberg, I lost my son and you're here to talk about money. And she never filed. That's just amazing,

that's just just astonishing. So thirty three months, seven billion dollars um. When you first started thinking about the awards, you approached this almost as if it was the regular calculations that courts make every day when there's any sort of wrongful death claim. Was it was that part of the congressional mandate. That was part of the congressional mandate that the congress the law instructed me in calculating damages to consider the torch system. Well, that's just what I did.

Some people think that I placed a value on lives based on the moral integrity of an individual. I didn't do that. How do you evaluate the moral integrity of three thousand people, rabbis and priests making that. I don't do that. I simply did what you just said, what would the person have earned over a work life? But four nine eleven, so you got a lot of pushback from like fireman's wives and other people who were making, you know, middle class salaries versus investment bankers and bond

traders were making ten and twenty times that amount. How did you deal with that sort of uh, that sort of response to this very very difficult Mr Finberg. My husband was a fireman. He died at the World Trade Center rushing in to save people. You're giving me two million dollars. You're giving my next door neighbor, whose wife was a bank of for Enron four million dollars. What do you have against my husband? You didn't even meet my husband, and yet you're giving me two million less.

There is no justice here and you have to deal with that all the time. Always remember this, I've learned. When you have a program that compensates victims, and there are numerous victims, everybody counts other people's money. It's not just what am I going to receive from Fineberg? What am I going to receive as opposed to my next door neighbor? And you better batten down the hatches, embrace

yourself because that gets very, very emotional. The old joke defines wealth as a hundred dollars more than my brother in law, and people are looking at at other people now. In subsequent settlement cases, you basically came up with an the same number for everybody. Did did that experience impact

subsequent not at all? Not at all. In subsequent matters in which I again I am compensating people as an alternative to the tort system bp GM, the same, everybody gets a different amount because you're trying to entice people out of litigating. What a bad Places like Sandy holl Datto or Sandy Hook, Aurora, Colorado, Virginia Tech, the Boston Marathon. Those aren't alternatives to the tort system. Those are gift programs. You don't waive your right to sue. Take the money

and sue if you want. Those programs are very different. There. I design programs where one size does fit all because there's no obligation on the pot of the recipient to do anything but take the money. That's quite fascinating. So a gift program, it's it's an even divide. And did people complain about that? Did you get the same sort of thing or much much less? People complain and criticized no matter what you I wish people could see your

face right now. People complain. Why shouldn't they complain, Barry? Why shouldn't Because it's a tragedy and this is a lovely gift and here this will make your life a little bit easier. And let's all start the healing. Prestof Heinberg. I lost my son driving a GM automobile. I lost my son on nine eleven, and you're offering me money bring my son back. How's that? Mr Finberg? And you dealt with that every day, every day the Boston Marathon. Mr Jones, you lost your leg when the Barrathon bombs

went off. I'm here to let you know that you're going to receive from one fun Boston tax free, one million, one d and twenty five thousand dollars. I am, Mr Finberg. That's what you're gonna give me. I got a better idea. Keep the money, give me my leg back. How's that? I wish I could do that. If I had the power to do that, you'd have two legs. But I don't have that. I have this gift from people, and thanks, but no thanks. That's that's amazing. You're listening to Masters

in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week, Special Master Ken Finberg, who oversaw some of the most complex and complicated litigation and alternatives to litigation settlement cases of all time, everything from the September eleven compensation fund to Agent Orange that was one of your early careers, the Dalkon shield. I went. I missed a lot of these um as bestos personal injury litigation. There's a ton Let's talk about the BP Gulf Fund that's still probably

the most recent, although I guess GM is a little fresher. Um. What was your role in the BP case? The same? In BP, I was asked by the Obama administration I BP to design and administer a compensation program funded entirely by VP, to compensate the victims of the oil spill, those businesses and fishermen and shrimpers and hotels on the beach in Florida and the Gulf who were adversely impacted economically by the oil spill. And that's what I did

for sixteen months. How much money was dispersed out of that fund while you were running it? While I was running it, we distributed in sixteen months six and a half billion dollars speak. He put up twenty billion, and I distributed the first six and a half billion and paid about a half a million claims um and received releases so people wouldn't sue. Were we we compensated of all the victims of the oil spill. So now this

was a little different situation. In the nine eleven Victims Compensation Fund, you're appointed by the Attorney General, you do it pro bono. Here you're hired by BP. How is that process so different from each other? Oh? Very different as we as you pointed out, Berry nine eleven was a patriotic duty. This is a international oil company, UM flush who UM decided in its wisdom, we will pay Mr Fineberg and the entire staff to quickly and efficiently

calm and said all the victims of the spill. We do not want a replication of excen Valdis litigating for twenty years. We want to get rid of this, and so we set it up, Wrap it up, move on. Now. There was some pushback because you're you're compensated as opposed to non eleven. How did how did you respond to people who said, oh, Finberg can't be fair because he's being paid by BP. Very difficult. First, don't take the money.

It's voluntary. If you think that Feinberg is not being fair even though billions of dollars are going out the door, then by all means opt out. So did people have to make that opt interrupt out decision before they knew what their number was. If you present a number, you could take it, or you could see exactly. So I said, here seems pretty reasonable. Well, here's the money. A free preview,

a free preview. If you think this adequately compensates you in Amanda, that will allow you to take the money in sixty days and wave your right to litigate. Well, virtually, virtually everybody took the money. Why wouldn't they take the money? They saw money flowing out of our office. Two thousands of people who were apparently satisfied with what they were receiving, took the money, signed a release not to litigate, and

walked away. So subsequent to you leaving UM that compensation fund, sixty Minutes did a piece about how what happened afterwards, where people were making claims who essentially had no damage from or at least that was the argument by BP, that there was no damage from the oil spill. That was the argument I I explain to people I'm leaving now, I've resolved two percent of all the eligible victims of

the spill, and now there's very few left. BP decided to continue a program, not with me but with others, as you say, and it unraveled. People started filing claims and making making claims on damage and it became pretty ugly. But my favorite version of that was the guy in Norway who claimed claimed damage from that so I received in sixteen months one million, two hundred thousand claims from fifty states. I got about three hundred claims from New York.

I didn't know the oil had got here to New York. I got claims from thirty five foreign You got claims in Hawaii, everywhere, Alaska, twenty from Alaska. I got claims from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, China, Nigeria. I got claims from everywhere. Well, everybody gets claims from Nigeria. But um, that's usually just uh an emails fraud. Um. What percentage of the initial

claims were junk claims? How many claims did you have to throw I think I threw out two thirds of the Really that many people see money and they that's it. They just go after it. Either they file a claim that makes no sense, or or they file a claim that may make sense, but they have no proof. Mr Feinberg, I lost a hundred thousand dollars because I couldn't fish. I see, well, do you have a tax return or a profit? We do things with a handshake down. Here.

This is Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridhalts. I'm here speaking with Ken Feinberg special master. You know, the American Bar Association called you the master of disaster and said that Ken Feinberg is changing the course of mass toward resolution. Are you? Why do you say that? Why? I did nine eleven, I did BP, I did GM. That's almost wrapped up now, right, these three mass towards

that's it, Agent Orange, DALC on Shield. Wait a minute, asbestos litigations Agian Orange, DL con Shield and asbestos litigation all were settled under the auspices of a mass taught court. Only nine eleven, BP and um GM are alternative programs, divorced from the courts, separate. So when people say to me, this is the wave of the future, you're changing the law, I'm changing nothing. These programs are aberrations, Barry, they are not.

Let me push back on that. So the the Agan Orange case went on for how many years after Vietnam before some young kid named Ken Feinberg comes along and says, to the chemistry companies who only offered twenty five dollars for all of them, versus the veterans who wanted a billion dollars, you said, oh, that's a range I could work with. And so you have to look at this on an I don't need to lecture you on a continuum.

Starting with agent orange and then going to asbestos. You basically took the concept of, hey, there's a better way than everybody banging heads and courts, and let's see if we can find some middle grounds that will allow everyone to get on with their lives. There are mass toart cases like agent Orange, like delk on Shield, like asbestos.

We are the parties, I think realize you're better off mediating a settlement with Ken Feinberg or a judge or whoever, rather than litigate for years and years and roll the dice and pay the lawyers and who knows how to end up. That's true now, I think most mass towards end up being resolved. Most cases, most litigation, most litigation gets solved in that sense, I mean there there there's

a recognition that litigation doesn't work, it's not efficient. But these special programs enacted by Congress or set up by GMA, by BP, I think they're a precedent for nothing, really nothing. So I'm wondering, are you waiting for the phones to ring from Volkswagen? Are you gonna have to settle their case for them. I'll say one thing about Volkswagen which people shouldn't lose sight of. No matter what Volkswagen decides to do about this problem, there are no deaths, there

are no injuries. These are problems of property value. Some economists did a study that said, based on the falsification, there's this much more pollution and we could figure out statistically a hundred and thirty five more people died from air pollution than whatever. Interesting a model that I think you're chuckling a little bit. But the Volkswagen problem is overwhelmingly a pr problem and an environmental problem, with the e p A and the Justice Department of looking at it.

But in terms of individual will damage to the auto owner, it is a property claim. Now there may be different values, but it's a property claim. You're not involved with calculating, as we did earlier in the segment, calculating lost live physical injury. This is an easy, much easier so al right, so you know, emotionally much easier. That's the Fineberg Law Office in Washington, d C. Volkswagen, if you want to resolve this sooner rather than later. Um, let's let's come

back to this. So so we we said earlier. It's easy to calculate the economic value of a life. You look at life expectancy and future earnings, and you could you could do the math philosophically working with all these tragedies. How has that impacted you as the media? Has it changed your perspective on the value of how we all live our lives? Yes, what I do is extremely debilitating, debilitating.

Oh my good to shoot. You can't sleep. You're dealing with people who lost loved ones who are venting to you about life sunfairness, validating the memory of a lost loved one, raising issues that Solomon would have trouble resolving. And I'm not Solomon by any means. And you've been compared well unfairly. Um but but it is extremely difficult, difficult, and you become very fatalistic. You do Oh, I don't think I'll plan more than two weeks ahead. You don't

know what's going to happen. Life has a way, Barry of throwing curveballs at everybody. I tell people all the time, don't map your future too far out into the future. Life has a way of changing the rules. I used to work with a judge named Anthony Marcarello is a fairly well known judge. This is twenty plus years ago, and um back when I was a practicing lawyer, and when he used to say to people trying to settle cases, look at and by the way, he's still around and

still doing mediation. Used to say at my age, I won't even buy green bananas, and everybody would chuckle, but the thought would enter your head. You're saying the same thing, absolutely right. I tell law students, Mr Farnberg, I don't know what I should do with my first job, because three years from now I want to do. Three years from now, take a job that you like, that you can get, that pays what you need, enjoy it. Don't

worry about three years from now. I guarantee you three years from now you'll have a different outlook than the day day one when you stop your current position. So so this has really left a mark on you having having gone through this. Some of the negatives are obvious. What are some of the positives you've taken away from from listening to these horrific tales of loss? I'll tell you one positive. Never underestimate bury the charitable impulse of

the American people. It is unbelievable to me. Boston Marathon in sixty days, a hundred thousand people contribute sixty one million dollars for distribution, Virginia Tech in a matter of weeks eight million dollars, Sandy Hook, Connecticut eleven million dollars, Aurora, Colorado five million dollars. People in America come to the AI to the rescue of people in need. And I've been around the world. No nation on Earth shows this degree of charity in times of need the way the

American people do there. But for fortune, we're going to contribute. Hey, listen, life is random. And how many times you know, I went to school with a woman who was on one of the nine eleven playing And how many times do you hear of people changing seats or missing a plane and some tragedy happens. It's completely serendipitous, it's completely ran And then what people have to confront I'll never forget. A twenty four year old woman came to see me

after nine eleven crying, crying. Mr Finberg, I lost my husband. He was a fireman at the World Trade Center. He got out of the building, he escaped. He saw that some people were trapped in the lobby. He ran back save those people in the lobby and brought them across the plaza safely to Lower Broadway. While he was walking on the plaza, having rescued them, he was killed when somebody jumped from the hundred and third floor of the World Trade Center and hit him, killing them both. Mr Finberg.

If he had taken one step either way, he'd be alive today. There is no God that would allow this to happen. Mr Farmer. So what what do you say to a person like that? What can you say? Mrs Jones? I wish I could bring your husband back. I don't have that power. All I can do small solace is give you money so you have a bit more financial security for you and your children. But in terms of the horror of this, Mrs Jones, there's nothing I can say.

That's that's unbelievable, and and that stays with you forever, forever. There's no there's no shaking that often and moving moving on. So you we we mentioned earlier, you have a when we were speaking before we started. You have a birthday coming up. You're gonna be seventy. Any plans on retiring, You're gonna go to Martha's vinion and just watch the waves or are you enjoying what you're doing too much? Enjoying? I'm not sure it's the right word, but I I

um satisfy bye bye. By contributing and being productive and feeling like making a difference, I think that's right. I don't forget. I grew up in Massachusetts at a time when a fair heared son of Massachusetts was in the White House, and I remember as if it was yesterday, President Kennedy exhorting all of us give back to the country. Public service is a noble undertaking. Everybody can make a difference. Government is not a bad word. And um, I try and live out that creed, I guess you would say

every day. So you've been listening to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio. If people want to read more of your work, I know you have a book that came out um some time ago called Valuing the Life. You occasionally published. Where where can people find um your writing? My latest book? Who gets what? Public Affairs press? And you know my personal supply of that book is virtually inexhaustible, But I think people can go on Amazon and get it all right? Thank you? So much, Ken Feinberg for

for coming by today. If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and continue listening. We let the tapes roll and continue chatting. Uh. Check out my daily column on Bloomberg View dot com or follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Okay, welcome to the podcast portion of our show. And and Ken, in case I forget to say this, thank you so much for doing this. This is I

find this absolutely fascinating. Listeners always make fun of me for using that word, but really, I've watched you, as have most of America, watched you operate in the public sphere in real time under unthinkable conditions. And I remember seeing one of the first nine eleven hearings with people shaking their fist and yawned at you. I just remember thinking, man, that looks like a terrible, terrible job. I wonder what the hell they're paying him, And the answer is it's

a terrible job and they're paying him nothing. Although you're really saying it's not such a terrible job because you're giving back and you're doing something patriotic to help the country, heal and move on. That's right. And also, frankly, are you're helping people in grief. You can never ever get angry at people. I mean, what they are going through horrifect, that's unthinkable, and they have every right to vent about life. Sun fairness, you are the target of this. Brace yourself

before you take on the assignment. You know what's going to develop, and um, you just prepare yourself. So you said it was debilitating earlier, But I've also heard that you have a couple of ways of coping with this, not the least of which is long drives with music playing. Tell us a little bit about that. I Um, during the day, when you're dealing with these horrible tragedies, you're witnessing first hen the worst in civilization, I mean the worst.

Then at night you go to a symphony concert, or you go sit at the opera, or you listen to chamber music, and it's the height of civilization. So you try and measure and balance the horror with something that will help ease your pain and ease your mind. When you're confronting during the day, story after story, you wouldn't believe these stories. Well, what we've seen and what we've heard and those of us who especially here in New York,

but obviously Boston Marathon was a similar situation. It's just human tragedy rit large. There's no other way to to describe it. Mr Feinberg, I'm twenty four years old. I lost my husband. He was a fireman, and he left me with our two children, six and four. Now you're going to give me from the nine eleven fund three million dollars. I want it in thirty days. Well, Mrs Jones, why do you need the money in thirty days? We

have to go to the treasury. They have to do their due diligence, The bureaucracy has to cut a check. It might be ninety days, thirty days. I said, why, why do you need the money so quickly? Why? I'll tell you why, Mr Fineberg. I have terminal cancer. I have ten weeks to live. My husband was going to survive me and take care of our two little ones. Now they're going to be orphans. I have got to get this money while I have my faculties and set up a trust so that they'll be taken care of.

We accelerated the money, Barry and that was a true story. That wasn't she wasn't blown, accelerated the money, and eight weeks later she died. After the money was paid, the trust was set up, and these two kids are taken care of, at the very least their college and everything else.

That's unbelie That istbilitating, let me tell you. And yet as horrific as that sounds, there has to be an incredible satisfaction that someone in such desperate need comes to you and you're able to do something to resolve it favorably too. I don't want to say to their satisfaction, but to take care of that situation under those circumstances, Well, you're right that you're not going to satisfy the victims, and there is no there is no filling that whole.

All you could do is try and ease the suffering a lot. But it is satisfying to know that you have run a program, administered a program that has succeeded the way that Congress or the President of the United States, are a judge or a governor or a mayor wanted that program administered. That is very satisfying to know that the Attorney General of the United States and President Bush can we want you to do this and that. Afterward they say, job well done. Yeah, that is very satisfied.

And you've probably handed out more money than just about anybody else. Uh, certainly more of other people's money than anybody else in the history if you ever sat down and figured out the total amount of checks that dispersed. But you're right, you're right. Eleven BP, there's fourteen add everything else up. You're not that far away from eighteen billion dollars or so. I've become. I tell people, I've become a nationally known philanthropist with other people's money. It's

sort of an interesting gig. Actually it's not. I don't know if philanthropy is the right word, but essentially you're dispersing money, for lack of a better word, A lot of this is charitable deductions. All the money you mentioned earlier for the Boston Marathon bombing, and Sandy Hook and Aurora and and Virginia Tech. Every time there's a problem, there's a huge outpouring of support. You're the philanthropist than

chief for the United States. Well, um, you're don't. Forget of all these programs, the one that is the most unique. They're all unique, but the one that's really unique is the nine eleven victim Compensation fund. That fund used public money, public money, not airline money, not World Trade ceremoney, public money. And I remember some of the emails I received, Dear Mr Finberg, my son died in Oklahoma City? Where's my check? How about the people who are the Mr Finberg? I

don't get it. My daughter died in the basement of the World Trade Center in the original nine attacks committed by the very same type of people. Were as my check? And it wasn't just terrorism, Dear Mr Finberg. Last year my wife save three little girls from drowning in the Mississippi River, and then she drowned a heroin were is my check? You better be careful about setting up special programs for just certain people. That nine eleven fund was

the right thing to do. Absolutely, don't ever do it again. It was a one off, of one of a kind, of one of a kind. That's right, That's just amazing. So so what do you say to someone whose family member died in the World Trade Center attack? This is Jones. You're absolutely right, asked Congress, why you're not eligible? I can't change the law. The law is the law. I have no discretion to add people from nine three or Oklahoma City or or a drowning victim. I can't do it.

I can't. And your beef justifiable criticism is with the Congress of the United States. They enacted the law, so you threw them under the bus, and hey, I don't want to because she's she's she's a very good issue. Now, I must say, the nine eleven attack, that was something unique in a American history. I think that's rivaled only by the Civil War Harbor and maybe the assassination of President Kennedy. That's it. That's it. That's sue generous and um.

But still I tell people all the time nine eleven, don't ever replicate that fund. That was using taxpayer money. So so, speaking of nine eleven and using taxpayer money, we subsequent we subsequently learned a decade later that a lot of the first responders who showed up at the World Trade Center subsequently became very very ill, all sorts of respiratory diseases and cancers and god knows what. The nine eleven fund was then extended with an additional set

of funding for these first responders. Tell us a little bit about that. You weren't involved in that. That's well, that's an offshoot of the nine eleven fund. In other words, elementary fanness. I can see that people got paid for those very diseases back then, but now they have manifested for more people. So the only reason they weren't paid back then is they hadn't become ill yet now they're ill. So if you paid them, then you should pay him now.

I can understand that argument, I guess, and pretty that's really that's it. After that, you don't ever want to see anything like this again, I I hopefully, I don't think you want the United the taxpayer to be funding compensation for certain victims and not others. Bad things happened to good people every day in this kind. There's no nine eleven fund. And I I am dubious about the wisdom of creating special taxpayer funded programs. We didn't just

one for certain people. We didn't do one after Pearl Harbor, did we? Well, what happened following the Pearl Harbor. Didn't do one after the Boston Marathon. That was all private money, all private money. That's that's quite fascinating. So so tell us a little something about your background that most people don't know anything about We know you as the special Um,

special mediator, special master. What don't people know about? Ken findber If people want to understand my philosophy and all of this, they have to understand growing up in the nineteen fifties and sixties in Brockton, Massachusetts, when President Kennedy was in the White House, a much more optimistic time. He's promoting public service, ask not what you can what your country can do for you, the Peace Corps and UM giving back to the country, and that every individual

can make a difference. And that resonated with me. It also resonated with me. I grew up in a tight, loving Jewish family in Brockton when everybody was much more optimistic about the future and and and and pulling yourself up and moving forward. My grandparents were immigrants and UM. It just it helped mold my my outlook. So post World War two, people are fairly optimistic. But let me push back a little bit from the history books. In the fifties, the sort of democles hungover the United States

and the Soviet Union. There was the constant threat of of nuclear annihilation. In the sixties, it felt like the entire social fabric of the nation unwounds. And then the seventies was a period of long it was it was high gas prices and inflation and recession and of even worse polyester and disco. So that was a terrible era. It wasn't until the eighties and nineties again the things seemed to turn. How negative is that view of history or how nostal, Jake are you being in your view

of history? What what we're in We're in lay the truth for for what those eras were, like maybe somewhere in between. I'm talking about nine fifty seven until the Vietnam build up around and during that eight year period when I was a teenager and then got older in my early twenties. Um, that that was the period where I was most influenced by optimism. Vietnam and the Civil Rights movement changed a lot of that. You're absolutely right, Um, but it had an impact so so essentially deep down

inside you're an optimistic guy, right. You grew up in that post World War two era where a can do spirit affected the country. Brockton, Massachusetts and urban Center. Over half these shoes worn by Union soldiers in the Civil War manufactured in Brockton and um a great industrial mecca. Really it was. And when I was growing up, it was still a town where imports and Chinese imports and Italian imports of shoes, those were that was the next day or the next year, or the next month or

the next hand. Shut the factors down. That's trying and and it was just a great time to be a youngster, A great time to be a youngster. Let me guess you're a Red Sox fan. Well, I was a Red Sox fan for many years now. Of course I've lived in Washington for thirty five years, and my my children grew up as Baltimore Oriole fans, redskin fans, Wizards caps so um. It's hard to maintain in New England allegiance.

When your kids are praising the local schools social teams, the head of the Redskins comes to you and says, hey, we have an issue with this naming thing. How do you resolve the team name? Resolved the team name? For goodness sakes, it bothers people. It's building up. It cantinues to build up. If that many people and that many critics find a name as being a problem, change the name.

What is the what is the big deal? I am not especially a politically correct guy, but it's hard to look at redskins and not say, gee, that's a little bit offensive. You know. I look, it's not my team. I'm just if I were. You asked if I'm advising him for Pizze says, you'll make a fortune the last week. All that merchandise is out there for the last week, it'll be every shelf will be sold out, and then all the new stuff. So just from a business perspective,

they should change the name. That. That's something I bet we've never heard heard said before. Um so you mentioned briefly working with Ted Kennedy, an early mentor of yours. Who else was as well as jfk H philosophically, But who else was a mentor of yours early in your career? Have been four that I've written about. Ted Kennedy was one master legislator, um unrivaled I think as an effective

US Senator and getting things done. I would say the other three people that have really influenced my thinking Judge Jack Weinstein, federal judge here in the in Brooklyn Southern District, New York Eastern Eastern District, that still sitting ninety four years old. A giant and sharp as attacked, sharp as attack. He was the fellow the judge who put me to work on Agent Orange and made my career. And Judge Weinstein's had a trement. I still wouldn't think of resolving

an issue without chatting with Judge Weinstein. Still talk to all the time. Justice Brier, Stephen Brier, very close to me, just has a book out, has been doing the circuit. Later, Justice Brian and I worked together as aids to ended to Kennedy. Really next door to one another. We sat in the same room and we're very close friends. And Justice Bryan has had a profound impact on my outlooking,

on my career. And finally, a Professor Robert Potofsky, I know the name of nationally recognized anti trust expert who taught me and I was his intern and school and then he went on to head up the FTC. He's still alive living in Washington. And Professor Potofsky got me into a teaching career. Teach, and those are the people that really influenced my outlook. That's a heck of a good list right there. Well, everybody needs mentors. You have mentors for sure. Absolutely. My mentors don't sit on the

Supreme Court or are one of the great senators. But I have some people who have influenced me over the years. Um, that are pretty interesting. Your father and mother. I grew up in Brockton in a very loving family with my brother and sister, and we knew that no matter what happened during the day at school or at work or whatever, we would always come home and a very loving mother and father would be waiting to nurture, to counsel, to guide, to love, and believe me, that had a huge impact

on the children. I can imagine. It's one of those things that are impossible to replicate, and people look at that as a core issue in in the direction the country is going. The current generation, so your kids are now old enough to have kids of their own, that generation seems to be very different than the parents you and I grew up with. Their now helicopter parents who do everything from the kid for the kids, from you know, cradle to until they're married. It's it's a very different

upbringing than I think my generation or your generation experience. Yes, but you hope that you instill values in your children that a time honored. No matter what the material change or the environmental change, the pace of life, you hope that the core values about love and respect and and reputation and judgment stay with them. Hope you could do much worse than that. Um So we mentioned the big four mentors of yours philosophically, who are the people who

influenced your your outlook? Of those those people, Judge Weinstein are very activist. Judge believes that the courts should be there to help the disenfranchised and the and the and the less well off. Senator Kennedy, who of course was a champion of liberal causes and it was determined to help the little man. HM. Justice Bryan, who's consistently one of the four justices on the Court that um it feels very strongly about issues like gay marriage and affirmative

action and things like that civil it's justice. So those are the people that influence you. So let's talk a little bit about authors who you've written a couple of books. Who are some of your favorite authors. What are some of the books that you've enjoyed over the years, whether they relate to law or or elsewhere. Ernest Hemingway, Really, I mean Ernest hemmy Way. They say that he may have he may be in decline today in terms of some of the major authors. Is revisionist. I don't know

about that. I think Henyways tremendous. We were in Key West not too long ago when we got to tour the Hemingway House, which was quite fast, great and people don't understand a um a massive collection of Hemming Hemingway memorabilia and drafts. Said in the Kennedy Library in Boston, the JFK like really um. Hemingway's children, I guess were very close to Jacquelin Kennedy Onassis, and Jacqueline Kennedy when she was alive, suggested that an appropriate place to lodge

those house those materials. And now the JFK Library in Boston is a key depository of Hemyway memorabilia. Who else, well, the Great gats Be. Everybody reads to kill a Mark and where everybody reads. I don't get a chance really to read much fiction. How about nonfiction fiction? I'm you know, it's it's on the run. So it's the New York Times every day, in the Washington Post, it's the New Yorker, It's the New York Review of Books, you don't really get. I don't I don't get now in the summer, I

just finished reading Evan Thomas's book on Richard Nixon. Fabulous book. I mean Richard Nixon. I don't want to say that Evan Thomas is a revisionist who who um is sympathetic to Nixon. But by laying out the story you can't help but UM see a side of Nixon that otherwise people forget because of Watergate and everything. Well, the post Watergate image almost becomes a caricature and you lose sight

of the real man underneath that. That happens in those sort of situations, and you don't have to be revisionists. You just have to show the full picture, and I think Thomas does that. Then I read on a lark, I read the History of the Nile River. Really, I just picked it up at a local bookstore on Martha's Vineyard. The history of the Nile going back to the ancient Egypt right up to the present time. That's the history

of civilization. That is the history of civilization going back thousands of years, and the importance of that river in world history. And um, I found that to be interested. So I get sometime but um uh, it's cliche. But I'm too busy. It's I can't remember the last piece of fiction I read, and I end up really plowing through, not nearly as much nonfiction as I like. But I try and go through a book or two a month if i'm if I'm lucky. But I'm on a train

every day, so that's where I get to do it. Now. My friend, my friend Mark Byros is a big believer in in these um oral books. He must read a book a week on tape. He's read everything on tape, goes to work on tape, coming home on tape at night on tape, on vacation on tape, and takes airplane trips on tape. And he says, oh, I read that. I read that. I read All the Light You Cannot See and The Girl on the Train and all these best sellers. He listen him and not this listening isn't

the same as reading. I have people tell me, you know, I I listened to your podcast. I'm on the treadmill, or I'm taking the train back and forth to work, or I go out biking. So it's a different experience hearing it than reading it. I like reading when I can, but how often do you get the three or four

uninterrupted hours you need? And I find that, um, if I have a moment of where I'm not meeting with somebody or doing it, I'm so tied up thinking about my work that it's hard to focus on fiction or non fiction or anything else because you're so occupied with what should that person receive or should that person be eligible or how much? And you take it home with you.

You strike me as someone if you would have been born in a just a few the next generation, you would be a guy doing meditation on a regular basis and a cross legged somewhere and thinking deep thoughts. Um. You think constantly about what you learn and what I do is that public policy involves real people, live people that have needs. And when you're thinking about whether it a close down the government or you're thinking about um uh filibuster rain a health bill, you know you better

step back that there are real people in ramifications. There are ramifications. When I do the nine eleven or BP or any one of these program Boston Marathon, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Sandy Hook, twenty four first graders murdered. Just unbelievable. Unbelievable, it's unthankful, it's unconscionable. And and here I am meeting with families who lost first grades, and I'm just telling them. What can you possibly say? You just sit there and listen to them. UM vent about life, sun Fannus. That's

what it's all about, Mr Fineberg. I lost my first my first grade child. There is no God, No God would allow such a thing. I will never again step foot in a church or a synagogue. It can't be that this God that would allow this. And you have no answer none. You just listen that that depth of grief. Supposedly the psychologist will say, losing a child worse than losing a husband or a wife or a parent. It's the worst pain a human can feel. And you hope when you do what I do, you hope you will

not make a mistake. Every time I do one of these programs to compensate innocent people, I make a mistake. You can't help it. You can't help it. I remember an eighty three year old man came to see me after nine eleven, Mr Fineberg, crying. He was crying, Mr Finberg, Guy lost my son at the Pentagon when the plane hit. He got out, he escaped, but he thought that his sister, who also worked at the Pentagon, was trapped, so he went back in to look for her. She had escaped

through a side door. He died looking for now, Mr Finberg, my life is over. I'm burying a son. A father should never bury a son. And I looked at this man crying, and I can't believe it. I said to him, Mr Jones, this is terrible what happened to your son. I know how you feel. H He looked at me, nice quiet, Mr Finberg. I have some advice for you. You have a tough job. I don't envy you. Don't ever tell somebody like me that you know how I feel. You have no idea how I feel. And it sounds

pretentious and condescending. I wouldn't do that. I will never do that. I will never make that mistake again. And you learn every time about mistakes and trying to avoid them. See my You know, my wife says the difference between men and women is women hear something and they want to listen. Men here it and like, all right, what

do I have to do to fix this? My first response when you're telling that is, you know, to honor what your son tried to do in saving his sister is you have to keep going for the benefit of your daughter. And I don't know if that's the right thing to say, because I know that they're not looking for your advice, They're just looking for an year. Be careful about that type of response. That's my wife's advice. Shut up and listen, don't offer advice, empathize. I wish

I could change this, I can't, and that's it. That's really not easy to do. And what I've learned over the years, the less you say two people in grief, because you'll be fueling this thing to say the least. Um, let's take a look at what else. So we went through books. I only I know. I only have you for another eight minutes. So let's go through some of my favorite questions I asked for my last four questions I asked all my guests. So you entered the legal

industry almost forty years ago. What has changed in the industry. What is the most significant shift in that field? I think the legal industry hasn't changed that much, except there are too many lawyers. I mean, we're reading about this all the time. These lawyers, you know, we're churning out thousands and thousands of lawyers every year, and we're over lawyered. So I I advise young people all the time, don't go to law school unless you really want to be

a lawyer and you want to practice law. Don't go because I'm not sure what I want to do. That's a pretty expensive ambivalence, I must say, an expensive ambivalence. I want to go to law school. I want to go to a very good law school, and I want to do very well at law school. Otherwise, good luck. It's a very competitive world out there, and you better think twice the stats. And these are old already, But

seven years after graduation, law school gradutions aren't practicing. I don't know if that's changed in the past twenty years, but yeah, it could could very well. They just aren't that many legal jobs out there. And wait till we start out sourcing more and more of it to India. Well that's right. And now you go online and you see legal dot Com and Zoom and all of this and legal Zoom and we can give you a will and we can do a simple divorce and blah blah,

it won't cost you very much. And it's all online. And I mean the world has changed software, software is changing that. So what do you see as the next major shifts in that profession? Well, I don't know. I mean I do think there's a trend that three years of law school, the third year should be more clinical, actual experience out in the field, practicing at the d a's office, a legal aid, doing some me the Asian work as a student, but getting out there and getting

some real world experience. There may be a trend towards making three years of law school two years. Now. There are some law schools now like Brooklyn here dean Nick Aller, very very um creative guy who's jamming three years of law school credit into two years and inviting students who want to get out of law school and two years to work hard, take the same number of credits, but get out earlier, stop working. So we'll watch and see

how this develops over the next two years. Quite fascinating. So, um, what advice would you give to a millennial or someone just getting out of school today at the beginning of their career, and I mean law school graduates, college graduates, what advice would you give to kids like that? Look, get yourself a job that you really enjoy, enjoy getting up on Monday morning and going to work. That's your

Yet you're that's the test, smile post. If you hate Mondays, you're doing the wrong right and don't worry too much about what you're going to be doing. Three years, four years, five years, five years ago, Barry Ridholts didn't see himself doing this fabulous show. I actually did, but that's a whole different story. But for the most but it wasn't real. It was aspirational and actually it wasn't this show. Five years ago, I was doing television and radio, but not

my own show. I always thought, Hey, I'm I'm a guest, I'm not a host. What the heck do I know about hosting a radio show? So actually, you're you're right. I had no idea this, you know, in my day job, so we run an asset management shop and we're always talking to people about don't think about the day to day noise in the market. Think about when you're gonna retire in twenty or thirty years, what do you need

to live on? What sort of we have to walk people through and their software that helps us do this, but we walk through people through prog actions ten, twenty thirty years out, and you're saying, don't worry so much about forty years from now. You don't know what next year is gonna break. Live in the moment a little more, enjoy what you have today. And boy, have I seen that in my work. For sure? People went to work on nine eleven. They never perfunctory goodbyes to husbands and

wives and brothers and sisters. I'll meet you for dinner, I'll beach, I'll be home earlier. There never saw him again, incinerated dust, and um, you know, you know, my wife and I have a routine every time we fly. I fly and we go through the same process of Hey, I'm in C three B. They're shutting the cabin door.

I love you, talk to you later, call me as soon as you're down, and so all right, we'll landed in Miami, landed in because you And that's only since nine eleven that routine developed, because you never know when a flight is your last flight. You could write a book other people could as well, on how nine eleven, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years ago has influenced the way we live today,

the way we think, the way we act. I would have thought after nine eleven, that over a relatively brief period of time, nine eleven would be history, and that the American people wouldn't stand for these lines at airports going through. It turns out the American people, I think, have made um airports security a regular fixture of their lives. They expected, they don't want it modified. And I'm surprised

at that. You know, the American people usually are very forgetful, but on something like nine eleven, the impacts lasted much longer than I thought, to say the least. And and my final question, because I promised to get you out of here at five thirty, what do you know today about your practice that you wish you knew forty years ago when you began. Oh, I don't know about that. That's a very interesting question. I Um. What I know

today is more than forty years ago. Is that you build a sense of trust and credibility on the pot of people, not by marketing and not by branding and not by advertising, by doing and experience. I'm a firm believer that talent will out and that if you're a good lawyer, or a good doctor, or a good interviewer. On Bloomberg TV, a Bloomberg Radio, a Bloomberg podcast, that it generates itself. It it provides you not only a sense of satisfaction, it does me in my practice, but

that don't worry too much about tomorrow or the next day. Um, your experience and your credibility enhances tomorrow and the next day. It'll worry about the substance. The branding will take care of. That's exactly right. Certainly in your case, that's the case. Please, can I if I can call you can At this point, after an hour and a half, I can't begin to thank you enough for this. This has been absolutely delightful. I've, like I said earlier, I followed your course of your

career as pretty much everyone in America has. And um, I hope we asked you some questions that we're a little different than you used to and I hope, I hope, I know I've learned a lot of fascinating things about you have And let me tell you you have a very civilized approach to this because your show and the reason I was attracted to it, it's not a six minute sound bite, it's not eight minutes. How many quick points can you make? You flesh it out? You give

everybody the opportunity. You get into a dialogue and it's very substantive, and I think you're performing a valuable public service. So thank you. Well, well on behalf of the American public. Let me say thank you for your service. Um, we've been speaking with Special Master Ken Feinberg. Uh. What's the name of your firm? Ken? The the law You're ready for this, The Law Offices of Kenneth A. Feinberg. Alright, there you go that that's uh, the Law Offices of

Kenneth R. Feinberg. I wanna thank my recording engineer, Reggie, my producer, uh, Charles Volmer, and my head of research, h. Michael bat Nick. Be sure and check out all of our other podcasts. Just look up an Inch or down an Inch on Apple iTunes. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.