Everyone of us as a microwave . A report is like a microwave . Your microwave has 30 programs , you only use one . So unless you read all these instructions , I'm not sending you a report anymore .
Welcome to the latest edition of the Brew Digital Podcast . I'm Hayden Woods Williams , a digital marketer here at Brew . I'll be leading today's session . We've got four topics to get through today , including a nice piece on nostalgia marketing and a little look at an advert about a peach that's been sending Italy a little bit crazy .
I'm Hayden , and this is the Marketers of the Universal Podcast For our first topic . Remember who your post and email is for ? Hint , it is not you . Our team today discussing this topic will be Mark Bundle . Mark has worked in email marketing for almost a decade . As well as having a background as a lawyer .
He is an emailing superstar here at Brew Digital and is also our local pedantic , so he's always got an opinion that will be very important to listen to . Debbie Gacchitan Jardines Oliveira is a seasoned social media marketer with a diverse background in both the tech and education sectors .
She's super creative , super awesome and super knowledgeable about everything to do with building communities and delivering social media strategy . And Rich Harper . Rich is our current head of marketing . He's the guy who makes everyone tick .
He's worked in the digital marketing space for over 16 years , so has an absolute tank of brilliant marketing knowledge to bring to the table , so let's get on with talking about the topic . Question one I'm going to start with you , mark . How can you actually know who your post , your social post or your email is for ?
Do you think there are any techniques you can use to put yourself into a customer's place ?
If you don't know who it is for odd argue , you shouldn't be posting , sending , etc . There's definitely some ways doing it . Make sure you're using personas , scoping out the people that are much relevant for your business . Make sure for seeing social you're building the right audience . Same for your email list . Make sure you're keeping that clean and nurtured .
If you don't know who that's going out to , you really shouldn't be shooting me doing it .
Really , it goes down to basic research In order for you to know your audience . There's no perfect solution . There's no easy way out of it than researching your audience , talking to your product managers , talking to your salespeople , for you to have a better understanding of who your audience is .
It's not about just understanding what their challenges are , needs , their point of view , but also the languages that they speak . That really defines how you craft your post or your content .
What we need to be aware of . We mentioned it right at the beginning . There , mark said about making sure you know your audience and who you're posting to . It's also about listening to your audience . I think as marketers , we do a lot of work on creating personas and creating data , segments and stuff that we think is what our customers want to hear .
What I don't see very often is taking a customer-centric approach to your marketing actually talking to your customers , listening and then building that back into your strategy .
It's nice to see you within our own business . That is starting to take more seriously . There are efforts to build on more how we're talking to our customers , how we're surveying them , how we're requesting personal feedback .
That two-way conversation , I think , where us actually asking them for information , getting them back , is really important to how we communicate with people .
I think on social media , we do have the luxury of being very close to our audience . You can post something right now and get a comment within a day .
As a business , you can take advantage of that by looking at the profile or the commentaries that you're getting , having a look at who's commenting , where they're from , what is their likes , what do they not like , what are their posts that they send , what are the things that they engage with .
I think from there you can take in some insights and bring it back to how your content is . The language is very important because you serve different types of clients . We have e-commerce clients and then we have tech clients . They might have the same challenges , but they might say it in different ways .
Without being contrarious , why do you need to think of the customer when you're creating marketing content ? I know the business is better than anyone else , so surely my knowledge is the most important thing .
The worry is only people think like that . You might know your product and your business better , but at the end of the day you sell things trying to solve a self-person's pain point or a content's pain point . They know that pain point better than you do . If you want to sell to someone , you need to know what they need .
That's why you need to think about them . You can focus in on their need and show that your product or your service meets that need . What if it doesn't meet that need ? We don't want to get to that person . Dress , the thing People sometimes forget , and this thing marketing is everybody . We must target everybody under the sun . We must reach everybody .
That's just not right . What we need to do is to use the old cliche thing hit the right people in the right channel at the right time . If somebody isn't your ideal customer or isn't going to be a super customer for your service , don't try and talk to them . Just try and reach the people that you can actually provide value to .
That is a really important point that Mark raises there as well . From my years of working in agencies and with multiple brands and companies , the one thing that consistently we get when we do discovery workshops and ask the customer who their audience is , is everyone .
There are certain industries that that's more prevalent in , but in general it's quite a common trait that companies feel that everyone is in their target market . Anyone can buy their product , which is just not true . That can be Nike trainers all the way down to a specific SaaS product . There are specific audiences that buy those specific products .
As a business , you need to make sure you've really honed in on who your ideal customer is and then translate your messaging and your branding and everything else to that customer .
We're running out of time in this section , so I just want to bring this round to giving some actionable tips for someone to go and do right now .
Does anyone have any tips on how we can try and avoid that bias , that self-obsessed way of looking at marketing , when you're so embedded in something that can help them improve their content , their marketing , their messaging , whatever it is ?
Put yourself in your customer shoes and if you can't do that , from another neutral perspective to product-focused . Use feedback groups , use surveys . Get that . The answer is directly from your customers . Make sure you get a client's perspective .
Yeah , know your customer , forget the owners . The owners are great , but they're just made up . Putting people in boxes doesn't work . The best thing to do is ask your customers , listen to what they're telling you and then implement that into your communications .
I'll take it in another way . Don't get comfortable . A lot of marketers think that they know what they're doing . They know their audience and 10 years go by , they're still doing the same thing . They go out and realize that they've been left behind . Don't get comfortable . Don't think that you know everything .
I make it a point that I always check competitors social media profiles , see what they've been up to and look at other industries what are the latest trends out there Just to make sure that I know what's happening and you still have a pulse of what's real .
It is true that you might know your audience , but you do not have control about the environment that they're in , which might affect their needs , their challenges and what they are looking for from a brand that is giving them the product or services that they need .
Both of those answers are really good . Whether you're someone who has no customers yet , or whether you're someone who has a lot of customers , there's going to be something to take away there . To wrap things up , obviously we can go away and look at researching competitors . That's easy . We can do that on the internet . How the hell do we reach ?
customers , well , you should have the contact details . They're already taking out your services . This means , if you can reach out to existing customers that way , research is the game of interest purpose under GDPL . She can reach out to them that way . If not , there are plenty of companies that provide focus groups , outreach that kind of service .
So if you can't do it in-house , there are ways to do it out of source .
Moving into our next topic is reporting even worth it in your job ? We will do it . Probably we should be , should we ? I don't know , that's what we're going to dig into In this section . We have Mark and Rich , rolling over their expertise from the last session , Joining us .
We've also got Michele Rathaeli , who's worked in sales and marketing for almost 20 years . He's evolved from the offline side into digital . His specialty is now paid media and always having a massive smile on his face . On top of that , we have Jason Morris joining us .
Jason initially finished university as a web designer , but quickly turned into an in-house digital marketing and SEO expert . He's worked across the globe with brands such as Citibank and Booper . Finally , we have Ross Stratton , who's biggest called the famous Winning an Egg and Spoon race once .
He's got over five years of digital marketing experience across a number of digital agencies , working with big brands such as VitaBiotics , Sky Scanner , Emirates and , of course , Adaptivist and the Adaptivist Group . I'm going to start with you , Ross Reporting is it worth it ?
At one previous agency , which I won't name by name , the format would take us presenting back PowerPoint presentations on a nearly weekly basis , that we're taking far longer than the actual campaigns to build all the optimizations .
So I think in instances like this it's almost certainly not worth it , because the amount of resource it takes to actually put them together just doesn't make much sense financially .
I'm a big fan of automated dashboards where clients can request bits that they want to see , have a play around with things , and then we can just run through the dashboard on a weekly basis . I think that's probably the best way to go .
I have a slightly different opinion . I think reporting is really useful for the clients to get those insights that are needed for them . Specifically , you can give clients access to tools . You can export all the data . All the tools have so much data and they just kick out so much information .
Making out the specific bits that they need for their work is really powerful , I think .
Nice . It's kind of making me think here about when I go running and whether I put it on Strava or not . If I don't put it on Strava , did it even happen ? If I don't report on something , did it even happen ?
Yes , exactly . So if we've carried out a bunch of work , you need to present it and say , look , we did amazing or we failed here . Take those linings that can then go into your next campaign .
Nice . Thank you , jason . Hey , then can I just drop something in there from a head-of perspective , I see the value in reports , as long as those reports are delivering the right information .
I think marketing has a bit of a bad rep when I say marketing gets a bad rep is we often utilize these metrics to show success , but we don't necessarily show success in terms of what it means to the bottom line of the company .
Jason's correct in the fact that reports are really valuable , but I think , as marketing people , we spend far too much time creating reports on stuff that doesn't move the needle in terms of creating attribution to a company's bottom line , and that's where things need to change .
So if you're looking for a company that is nothing new impressions , click-through rates , all of the other things that we like to track one of the nice ones is like oh , we've received a 300% ROI on this project , but if it's 300% of nothing , then where is the benchmark ?
So it is cover so many things . Report . Absolutes Percentages just mean you can hide whatever bad thing you want behind a number that looks better than it is .
Yeah , one takeaway scrap percentage hits .
I need those to cover my my back bit . So you've spoken about revenue there and it sounds like revenue is a pretty important thing to be reporting on . Do you think that is the most important thing ?
For me it needs to tie back to the company's objectives . But ultimately , in the amount of times that I go into a company from a consultancy perspective and I ask the business owner or the marketing director or the sales director what is the ultimate goal of this business ?
It's to grow revenue , whether that's from Existing clients and it's looking at the existing base and trying to upsell and and create more value out of what's already Existing in the business , or whether it's about looking for new channels and bringing in new business .
There's not a single company I don't think I've ever come across that would is not looking for that next bit of growth . And and what is that growth Ultimately comes down to revenue . One of the things is , again , not always necessarily looking at what revenue it generates at that first Touchpoint . What's that first sale ?
Sometimes , especially in B2B and our world in terms of tech , that initial sale Might not be the most profitable bit of business that you do , but then how do you retain that customer and create it more value out of that customer ?
on that as well . We sometimes get caught in a trap of talking about revenue in terms of we do a lot of lead generation . Branding still has value and should still be reported on . It's needs to be a lot more careful with the the long-term attribution of it and yes , attribution can be horrid , but it's worth it in the long run .
So you can tell where all of your efforts are paying off then , not just the short-term ones .
I'm interested to see Europe because I know you're a big fan of making sure that the Stories in the data , making sure the data backs up what you are doing .
I am indeed . What made me realize listening to all of you now is that my opinion changed . If you asked me the same question three months ago , I would have been like , yes , reporting is like air you breathe . Without reporting you cannot live . Then GA4 happens and I changed my mind . We've been invited .
Yesterday we participated to a Google breakfast workshop when they show us some data , some number , for the next cyber month , apparently now , before making a purchase , they estimate people will need ten interaction . This means that we will probably start fighting even more Around who generated the conversions .
What I realize now is that we don't need reporting , we need trust . I feel every one of us as a microwave . Our report is like a microwave . Your microwave has 30 programs . You only use one . So unless you read all instructions , I'm not sending you a report anymore .
That's amazing .
What I like to do with the reporting is educate the client how we got to that stage . So , for example , there could be a paid campaign . Off the back of that . You do get extra organic . You get all the on-site behavior metrics , so there's things like that that the client needs to understand as well .
So I'd like to kind of unravel it Can you even trust the data we're looking at .
Google Analytics 4 has thrown a lot of Spanners in the works . I'm not sure that's the same . It has made us look at universal analytics and go Was what I was reading even right ? We've looked at things like iOS 14 and beyond , cookies , end of cookies , like it is harder to track all these things Accurately , so how do we challenge that ?
How do we tackle that ?
There has been plenty of times , particularly meta , whereas come out that their data has been inflated . So there's always a kind of a touch of caution with this date . We're receiving from other platforms anyway in that respect .
Isn't there an email client that Just marks everything is open as well ?
I always 15 . Yeah , the mail privacy protection . I think it's called don't quote me on that be a 15 Marks . Every email is open , whether it has been or not , which is great fun for for Marks's .
Yes , it's a minefield out there right Just around this all up . It's been some really nice points here , really interesting things . I kind of could spend hours digging into this stuff . Should marketing team be looking to improve their reporting , should they be looking for perfect , what can they go and do right now ? That's simple and implementable .
I'm gonna be controversial here and say drop the MQL . A marketing qualified qualified lead is a completely useless metric if it's not linked to pipeline . For me , mql is another vanity metrics that's not aligned with the actual business goals for a marketing person to sit there and go . We've just delivered you 4000 leads and then sales close one of them .
Why , who cares if you've delivered me 4000 names if none of it converts ? What we should be doing is shifting the mindset . More to quantify pipeline , let's just think about what the consolidated objective is and work together to achieve it .
Onto our third topic . Today we are looking at one of our favorite marketing campaigns . What we've picked is actually probably an advert that a lot of people may not have seen I know I wouldn't have seen it if it wasn't for this and an advert from Esalen go in Italy . Esalen girl super market , I believe and talking to us today we have Michael again .
He's our man who only uses a single mode on his microwave . We've also got nasia is from a pating . She's worked in B2B tech marketing for three years with clients such as SAP , plume , so lego and , of course , adaptivist . We also have Debbie back , and I'm gonna start with you , mckenna . Why is this advert broken ? Italy ?
thank you , aiden . I'm very surprised of your pronunciation of a saloon guy . Very well done . In the story it's a little girl who goes to the supermarket with the mother and in the end she comes back home with a pitch .
And that's where the story changes completely , because the little girl prepares a luggage and then leaves to go and spend the next week with the father . So that's the moment where we realize that the couple is divorced . Now that type of family in Italy has never been shown on national television .
You should think about a country where we still have those ads , where In the morning the families sit all together happily having breakfast , smiling to each other . So showing these Art of the reality is what actually broke it .
That's interesting . I didn't realize that's what broke it . That's the most impactful thing , but what are the other things that you love or hate about the ?
the advert , the outset as marketers , we always try to promote the better side of things . We always try to use these goods finish of every story . We probably fake reality to make everyone happy , to make sure that everyone is having what they need .
In these specific ads , which could come from the Apple Playbook , basically because they don't speak about the supermarket at all . It's just this little family going to the supermarket and getting fruit and veg . So they don't talk about the product . They are not advertising who they are , what they sell , they just sell you the emotion .
But what's that's me was the fact that it's not a sweet story . It's more bitter sweet .
Yeah , I can definitely see that bittersweet part of it . There's the bit at the end where she hands the dad a peach . You're almost like grimacing because you see the wider context of that . Debbie , I want to go to you now .
It's interesting viewing this without the context of what is within the culture of Italy , having lived as well in London , where you are already exposed in adverts that do not necessarily take the common route of a single family it's only a mom and a dad , it could be a homosexual couple , and so on .
So my view on this advert , to be honest with you , is that I thought that it was quite weak . The role of the supermarket was an astral , so there's no strong brand role to this . Apple can get away with it because Apple is Apple and so you do not necessarily have to interject the brand at every moment in space to get that . This is an Apple advert .
Apple is not a luxury store to not have a luxury to that .
I'm not here to jump into the debate whether it's good or bad , but one thing's for sure they definitely use emotional marketing and I agree with Debbie it's like how Apple does their commercials we bring their own story .
That's all about human experiences you can share , with the product or brand remaining in the background At your heartstrings people only focus a lot on potentially the political message that they projected onto the video itself .
It is , you know , sometimes brand does a lot of the strategies like the Apple Playbook girl can do everything . They do a lot of copy paste of these type of strategies . Sometimes they work and sometimes they do not , but sometimes it needs to go down into the authenticity of the storyline itself and to me it was a bit of a stretch .
I personally really loved the ad because of the emotional appeal and it definitely got people talking . Not gonna lie , I didn't watch it from a marketer's perspective and the end of the video did make me feel some type of way , because you don't see that sort of broken family dynamics in a mainstream ad .
What me call these eight same here you don't see it in Malaysia Controversial are not , especially during a difficult economic period with prices going up , especially in a competitive market and in this case , well , in a saloon case like large scale retail sector , they definitely needed To kind of make a strong emotional impact to kind of stand out against the crowded
market .
So if you go and look at the months that degenerated , they actually increased the month at very similar level to their highest spike in the past five years , which was so cool . The first ways is this fair . Maybe a topic for another podcast , but I can say from a data point of view it was love this . I love a disagreement .
How can someone who doesn't have that glossy finish , who doesn't have that big budget to go and do an ad for like this ? How do we capture those moments that we recognize , recognize ourselves in ?
these type of recently there was one went viral from Norwich Football Club this month . The way they stand out is to pass emotions . So , instead of promoting your product , your service , whatever you are selling , go and provide an example of the feelings that this product will give to you if you are going to use it .
I think it's a fine line to tread . As Debbie said , if you don't put your brand in front and center . Sometimes , if you don't have that brand recognition , do you get lost in that ? Interested to see where your thoughts are on that , debbie .
This is an interesting one because there is a line where you are just jumping on a trend versus being authentic to the story . Some brands have already received backlash because they are jumping on this trend of like you know , girls can Going back to the question , like , if you do not have the big budget , like , how can you have something like this ?
Again , going back to , like your customer , what are their challenges ? What is the need that they're trying to , you know , fulfill Potentially , looking at the social dynamic right now , what is it that you want to convey ?
We are jumping now into our final topic , which is all about nostalgia marketing and whether or not it's in fashion , whether it will always be in fashion Our team to discuss this one . We bring a Nassia back into the fold . We're also bringing Ross and his egg and spoon back from our second panel , and we're also joined by Freya Wilcox as well .
Freya is a recent university graduate who specializes in branding and communications . She's worked in public relations and social media before she joined Brew , where she is currently at , with digital marketing , in turn training in paid media and email . She is a real superstar . Let's get started . What is nostalgia marketing and how does it work ?
I'm going to start with you , freya .
So nostalgia marketing is like a very emotional form of marketing . It banks on the feeling of nostalgia . I think it's very effective . However , I think it's hard to do and you have to know your audience , because something that's nostalgic to me isn't going to be nostalgic to Hayden . Yeah , we have different interests with different ages .
You really need to focus on your audience , their demographic , like the age where they grew up . What's going to feel nostalgic to them ? When I was researching for this topic , a big one that came up was Pokemon Go , which I'm sure is very nostalgic for a lot of you guys . Pokemon in general was not nostalgic for me at all .
I remembered a conversation a few months ago where we spoke about the fact that Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring was released before Freya was born , and that makes me want to cry because that's nostalgic as hell to me .
Ross , I have a slightly different perspective from Freya , having been born in a different decade and having now seen my entire childhood reduced to a couple of fancy dress party pieces that you can now pick up at the local party store . I think I saw maybe it was in TikTok . You can now buy Nokia 3310s to go to parties with , and Tamagotchi's as well .
So that's a slightly depressing thought . But yeah , touching on Freya's point , I think it is always in fashion nostalgic marketing , but again , it's just finding the right audience . It would be interesting to see if the slightly more obscure things from my childhood end up being used for nostalgic marketing . I don't know if anyone remembers Baby Wee Wee .
That's always a product that stands out as a doll that used to have fake weas and that was a brand campaign that happened . Yeah , I've actually lost my central point .
It's all right . I feel like we need to throw Baby Wee Wee over to Nasha at this point .
I mean even younger consumers . They have like a fascination with the past , for example like all over TikTok or even if you walk into a mall , how Y2K early 2000s . Fashion consumer products are back on trend and it's very especially popular among the Gen C's .
We'll all be wearing flares again soon . I think we might already be wearing flares .
Yeah , we're already wearing flares .
Do we think it's a valid way of marketing to people , or do we think it's just taking advantage of remembering a better time ?
Well , I would argue , that's all . Marketing is really just taking advantage of your audience in some way . Yeah , we're always kind of playing on biases and preferences that we're hoping our audiences have . Yeah , I think it's very valid way of marketing .
I think it's a good method of marketing and I think if you do it right , it can be really effective . But yeah , I just think you have to make sure you get it right and make sure you know who your audience is and what they're going to relate to .
We've seen a lot of nostalgia play out in the movies . We've seen Barbie . We've seen Star Wars beaten to an inch of its life . Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are coming back for another movie . We've had Ghostbusters come back .
But how can a brand today who wants to use nostalgia effectively in their marketing , beyond just looking at their audience , is there anything they can do to identify what is going to work nostalgically ?
I think they brands would need to focus on what was sort of big and iconic , obviously , like a lot of things that used to work probably won't work now , as times have changed . Things have become more acceptable . Things have become not acceptable .
Yeah , I think it's probably best to focus on a hook or a trend that happened more recently , just to prevent you alienating a younger section of your audience . I don't think anyone in their 30s is going to be particularly enamoured with an ad including where's the beef t-shirt ? Sort of leg warmers . So I think that's an important aspect to keep in mind .
I agree with both Ray and Ross . Reintroducing popular products or designs from the past can really create a sense of excitement , anticipation , among various consumers from various different eras , and it can also attract new customers who may have missed out on the product's initial release .
Yeah , I think one brand that's done nostalgia marketing really well actually is Polaroid , because film photography is a massive thing at the moment and they've re-released their original Polaroid , obviously with a few tweaks to make it easier to use and better quality photos and stuff .
But that I think obviously in folks' nostalgia for people who remember the original Polaroid and like the first few , but also is really hitting the audience of people who are getting back into film photography or starting film photography at a young age .
Just to tie things up , it sounds like nostalgia marketing can be so effective , but it comes of a risk . If you get it wrong , you can look like a Wally , and you don't want to be stuck in . Where's Wally Land ? 20 years too late , right ? I'm going to ask each of you very , very quickly Would you use nostalgia in your marketing , yes or no ?
Bross you first .
Yes , depending on the client , in a B2B perspective it's probably not going to be particularly useful , unless we're playing on tech nostalgia . So , unless we're maybe toying with the idea of dial-up broadband , which is something everyone remembers , that could be a potential hook .
Nice Nassia , yes or no ?
Yes , I love nostalgia and marketing , especially when you bring up back all tech stuff . I love thrifting , seeing or looking how some modern brands are incorporating the all kind of design , like how Samsung has done it with their flip phone .
Freya , yes or no ?
Yeah , I think it's really effective when it's done correctly and can really be an emotional form of marketing , because people make connections with memories and have associations with the good old days with certain products . It's just you do need to focus on what was sort of iconic and what was notable and also what is going to work now .
Like Ross said , everybody remembers dial-up marketing , not dial-up marketing . Dial-up Wi-Fi .
Broadband .
Yeah , well , I don't remember . Yeah , I don't remember that .
So that's all we have time for today . Thank you so much , everyone for listening . We really hope you found some useful snippets in our session and are able to go and put them into your own marketing . Thank you also to the Brew Digital team for doing all the research and their input into today's session . Make sure to go and check out our past episodes .
Subscribe on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcasts , and we'll see you on the next one . I've been Hayden and this has been the Marketers of the Universe podcast .