It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio. Welcome to Maria's MutS and Stuff and with me. I'm so very very thrilled. Today is doctor Sarah Brown, who is the author of the Hidden Language of Cats, How They Have Us at Meow, so clever title, such a delightful book. I'm so happy to chat with you about I love this book. By the way, Thank you so much, Thank you so much for inviting me. Absolutely so, how did this all begin? What made you decide?
I would assume you love cats. I know you love cats, and is that why you decided to write this book? Yeah? So I do love cats, and I've worked with them for many, many years, over thirty years. And the reason I decided to write this book was that over those years, I've so often heard cats describe as cool or aloof or uncommunicative, especially when people are comparing them to dogs. Sure, and so I always thought that was a little bit harsh, because cats actually have quite a
lot to say for themselves. They just have a different, more subtle style of communication people and to dogs. And so we just have to look a bit closer and work a bit harder to understand what they're trying to say.
So I decided to gather up all we know about the different ways in which they communicate, all the amazing science out there that's been done, and put it all together in a book so that to encourage people to take a closer look at their cats in their lives and to think about what the cats are seeing and smelling and hearing, and how best to interact with them. So
that's kind of the synopsis of the book. Yes, yeah, and that makes sense because I'm sure for someone who has a cat, if you understand the body language and all the different things, because you know, animals do give us clues just because we don't speak they don't speak English if you pay attention, right, So I mean, actually, this is like, it's an excellent It's like a guide for anyone who wants to understand their cat or
a cat better. So you just mentioned how they're very different than dogs, and I know you know some you just know whether a dog is wagging its tail or if a dog is barking or growling. Are there any similarities that a cat will do that a dog will do? If that makes sense? So I suppose there are some similarities. So both species are very very conscious of scent, that's sort of they go to methods of communication, so they're
both very tuned into that. But I think there's probably a lot of differences, like you say already, so like, for example, you know, when a cat wags its tail, it's not a good sign, not a happy sign, whereas when a dog wags its tail, sure, the complete opposite. It's usually pleased to see you. And so but what's interesting, stingers is the study done that the cats and dogs living together quite often learn
that that that means the opposite signal in the opposite species. So you know, a dog will learn that a cat waiting its tail is not in and also things like sniffing when when a dog sniffs another dog, they like to sniff the rear edg whereas cats quite often will approach each other's nose to nose a thing called touch noses and sniff each other's nose. And so a dog living with a cat has to also learn to, you know, do the
more polite cat approach. Interesting, yeah, and I didn't realize that that's right, and so they I guess know, but I guess for just like a dog will know it's human habits, cats will do the same thing. So I guess that that enables the cat to learn what the dog is signaling, and the dog to learn what the cat is signaling. It's mind bar exactly right. Yeah, that are so clever. They watch us and they learn and they you know, they learn, you know, how to to
get our attention. M yeah, yeah, and they're very smart about it, right, there's yes, they're very smart. No, it's true. So was there anything I mean, because I know, being around cats and loving cats like you do doing the research for the book, was there anything that that even surprised you that you didn't realize about a cat or that or you know everything, many things. I mean, However, a long you've worked with cats, you're always learning new something, especially with all the scientific
studies coming out all the time. So reading some of them, you know, I learned new things that you know, made me go wow. So for example, you know, we know that meows are mainly directed towards humans rather than rather than other cats by cats. And I also knew that cats meows were more higher pitched domestic cats and more higher pitched than their ancestral species,
the African wildcat. But what it didn't realize was this pitch, this higher pitch, is almost exactly the same as the pitch of a human baby's cry, which, as we all know, is incredibly hard to ignore. So I feel like it's amazing somehow they've worked out that the actual pitch of the meow is best, you know, at that level, that's the best way to get our attention. Interesting, you know, try and pretend you're a baby, right, and that will get the humans attention. It will
every time, right. Wow. And Also the other interesting thing I've found, which which I was sort of aware of, and I think most people are aware of, is how we pitch our voices back to the cats. We talk in this high pitched, you know, baby talk voice and which we call mother ease. And this study study done quite recently, showed that when listening to their owner's, cats can tell the difference between this speech directed at them. This mother is till between that speech and the speech directed to
other humans. So speaking to another human, they know that they're not talking to them, but when we suddenly put on our baby voice, they pay attention. Well that, you know, that's really fascinating to me, because you know, you said it earlier how people always think that cats are so
cool and aloof but they probably it's probably because they're smarter than dogs. And I think because they realize, oh, the humans not talking to me, so I don't have to pay attention where a dog always I think, you know, because you use like the high pitched baby voice around dogs too. But I think dogs just always think that you're paying attention to them. I think they Yeah, we have a different relationship a lot of the time with our dogs, which is partly, like I said, like why I wrote
the book because I want people to notice their cats. Sure what the cats are trying to say? That's fascinating, fascinating to me. So I know when I read your book, you're there's a whole section about alo rubbing and alo grooming, which I had never heard about before. Like, I never really knew what that was. Let's talk a little bit about that for you know the listeners right now who are like, what is that? Yes?
So, so ala groomy is basically when one cat grooms another cat, which which people might have an image in their mind of two cats curled up together grooming each other. And it's a very tactile you know, very close you
know experience, so it tends to be a very bonding behavior. And then rubbing is a similar behavior which I've watched a lot in the colonies that I've studied, where they were they when maybe a cat's come back from being away for a while, and they might greet each other and they rub their heads together or alongside another cat, you know, they might rub their bodies and their tails together. And they they do that to us too, as you know, where they come up to us with their tails up and they rub
around our legs. It's exactly the same behavior as they use on another cat. And yeah, talk about this in the book. It's all about the sort of tactile experience sort of mixed in with the scent depositing experience. And somewhere, you know, how do those two things you know happen when they when they rub either on another cat or on us or on an object, right, yeah, and it's yeah, and it's to leave to leave their scent, correct, to leave their scent, but also to is a theory
that actually the actual tactile experience itself is very important for social bondings. So cats, you know, we'll rub on each other, you know, when they're doing that there, you know, it's difficult to know whose scent is going on. Whose is it? Are they mixing sense, so we don't really know what the actual scent process is. But but that actually perhaps just actually touching another cat, like when we pet our cats, it's an enjoyable
experience. It's a similar action to when we might stroke someone's arm, which is you know, which is sooth sure like comfort? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a comfort thing, and that creates you know a sort of chemical reaction in the brain which makes you feel good. Sure. So yeah, the tactile experience is very important in both grooming and rubbing. Wow, it's fascinating, you know. I mean, these are just all the little things that I'm sure most cat owners don't realize or you know, unless they've done
lots of homework and read lots of books. But I think it's all it's just it's fascinating. But it's also so educational because it will help anyone understand their cat better. I hope, so, yes, I hope that you know when you're when you're petting your cat, we all know it feels nice. Hopefully the cat's enjoying it too, But it's sometimes nice to think about, well, what's actually what's actually going on here? You know, who's
getting what out of this interaction? Right? Right? And also when when perhaps you know you should end that interaction, if perhaps the cat's had enough, and that that that petting has stopped feeling nice for the cat, And to notice the signals so that you know that you finish that interaction before, right before it's enough, right, And how would you know, like what signal would the cat give that's to say, okay, enough to stop touching me, I need to go away. Yeah, So depending on this,
depending on situations. So I say, if they're just rubbing around your legs and you're petting them, they might they might stop running rubbing around your legs. They might move away, so they don't you know, they don't actually want to be near you anymore, which is an obvious sign. But they might start to thrash their tail, you know, swish their tail a bit,
just looking slightly annoyed. Or sometimes they sit and just groom, which is a sort of displacement behavior we call it when they when they just don't really know how to show you they don't want to do what you're doing anymore
right, or just do this instead, so that that's another signal. And obviously sometimes if they're sitting on your lap, they can just leave right, which is sort of I mean, yeah, yeah, dogs do that too when they've had enough walk away, which I think sometimes people don't realize that, especially with dogs and both dogs and cats around children where you'll see a child, because I think children are always so fascinated by cats and dogs or
kittens and puppies and petting them. And then if the pet you know, the animal moves away, usually the instinct of a child is to then go after it. Well, no, I want to still pet you, which is probably something that parents need to be aware of, like no, no, no, leave the cat, leave the dog alone, yes, no, When to finish the interaction, I think it's very important for people to
learn and also starting the interaction. A study shown that the interactions between human and cats last a lot longer if you let the cats start the conversation, so you know it's okay to speak to it and encourage it to come towards you, and then if it looks interested, offer it a hand sniff, but then give the cat lots of time to sniff the hand and see if
it wants to interact more. Sometimes just walk away when they've sniffed your hand, and that's and that's all they to pursue it, right, that's all they wanted, right right. So but sometimes yeah, but if they if they are keen, they'll they'll round you and you can pet its head. And that's another thing to be careful of which part of the body or pettings they like to be petted around their head, the chin, the ears,
rather than the tail end and the belly. So yeah, all these things are important aspects of an interaction with a cat that perhaps we don't really think about. But some people they're obvious, but maybe not always not to everyone, And that's where your book is very helpful, I think, hopefully not seriously, because I mean, yes, I mean obviously the worst is if a dog doesn't want to be petted anymore, it might it probably would growl
before it bites you. But I would say with a cat, would it make It would probably make a noise or just scratch you if like leave me
alone. Times they scratch, yeah, yeah, sometimes they scratch or sometimes there's a there's a sort of and called petting and biting syndrome, which some people might be familiar with, where they may be sitting on your lap and you're petting them and you're maybe a bit distracted, you know, watching the TV or just not really looking what you're doing, and you don't notice the size that the cats had enough, and often they'll just literally just bite right,
not always hard, but just maybe a little warning nip and you think, gosh, where did that come from? And that's just okay, I'm done, I'm done right, And it's really and it's usually human error because you're not paying attention to the cat. Yes, often or sometimes some cats are actually quite do it quite suddenly, so so the signs are quite subtle, you know, flicking of the tail or so yeah, you have to learn. You have to know your cat. I guess a little bit sure
when it comes to those interactions. But that and that's where your book helps too, you know, Like I think anyone who either has a cat, or loves cats or wants to learn more about cats, but especially a new cat owner, I think like your book would is so perfect just because you know, it's a living thing that's living with you that you need to love and take care of and the best way to do it. I mean,
it's almost like a new parent when they have a baby. They get baby books to learn what to do, and you know, even though it's instinct, but still there are things that you don't know what to do. And I think it's the same thing when you have a new cat or a new dog, you know, a new pet in your home. Yeah. I think I think just getting inside the mind of a cat helps a lot to know, you know, how they think, they what they experience. You
know, they have a very different experience of the world to us. The vision they're hearing, the scent, it's all different to us, and it's a different language basically, sure, no, for sure. What do you think is the most common myth about cats? I mean, of course we know that everyone's always like, oh, you know, a dog needs you. A cat doesn't need you. You know, my cat would eat me
if it was bigger. Those are just what do you think is is one of the like a big common myth or you know that's just not true. I think I think one of my biggest myths that I like to dispel whenever I can, is that is that black cats bring bad luck or any of the other old superstitions associated with ya with black cats that have you know, gathered over the years. Black cats, they have such a hard time getting
adopted, that's true. Ones are the shelters, yes, you know, just because of the you know, age old associations with you know which evil and superstition. Yes, oh my cool. Yeah, No, you're you're so right. I think I was trying, you know, sort of get rid of that one. Boost Yeah, get rid of that one, because no, it's true and she's lovely. No, it's you know, it's so funny because I have a black dog and it's the same thing. It's
black dogs syndrome, black cat syndrome. They're the least the last to be adopted and usually if they're in a kill shelter, the first to be euthanized. And it's true with dogs, it's because it's a he's the big scary dog in a movie, is a Doberman, or it's a black dog. And cats, Oh, the black cat crossed my path, you know, like, Okay, who cares, it's a black hat. So yeah, so I love that you just said that. Let's dispel that. There's you
know, black cat's syndrome. It's not true. It's just as loving and beautiful a cat as any cat. Yes, I love them sometimes beautiful, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, it's fairly true. They're like velvety to me. Black cats and black dogs are just so beautiful, you know. And I think also sometimes especially with rescues, and I know they were different.
And I've had other guests on talking about like how to take better pictures and stuff, and a lot of times it's people don't know how to take a photo of a black dog or a black hat because you know, they don't they don't have it on a colorful blanket, or they don't have a bright bow on it so it stands out. And this way you can take a better picture and then I'll get adopted. So it's a whole process that
you're helping to. But they said that one of the reasons people, one of the modern reasons people don't adopt black cats, is because it's hard to take a photo take a selfie with your black hat, which I think is so sad. It is sad, it is. Yeah, And there are so many ways that you can take a beautiful photo regardless of what the color of the cat is exactly or the dog. No, it's very very very true. So well, I thank you. This is like I really I
just thought your book was so delightful. And you know, I know more about dogs, I have to admit, than cats. But for all of my listeners who are who have said to me, you need to do more cat things, you just gave me more cred So I thank you for that because it's also this book. Well, it's true because your book was delightful, but it was very educational to me as well. Just I learned things
that I didn't know. So I'm sure for someone who knows much about cats, they'll be delight with the book, and for someone like me who didn't know as much, you'll learn. And you know, knowledge is power. We all need to know and learn as much as we can. So thank you so much for talking about the hidden language of cats, how they have
us at me. Ow. Where can my listeners get the book because I know it came out in October and it's getting all normal book retailers, you know, books, local bookshops online, yeah, all the normal outlets. But yes, I should be able to find it most places, I think, yeah, and it's perfect. So much please, thank you, and just in time for the holidays. This makes a great holiday gift. The
hidden language, right, yes, so it's perfect. Thank you so, doctor Sarah Brown, thank you so much for your time and for the book. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely thanks, thank you.