It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea. On iHeart Radio, Welcome to Maria's MutS and Stuff with me is evolutionary biologist Jonathan Losses. Jonathan, you are by far the smartest person in the room. I have to tell you that right from the get go. Well thank you. Well you are an evolutionary biologist I find incredible. But I know we are here to talk about the cats meowt how cats evolve from the savannah to your sofa. And I know you've written other books, but tell me, because it's about
cats. Was this your most fun book to write? Absolutely? There is so much fun, cool information out there about cats, and I learned a ton and then getting to write about it it was just fantastically enjoyable. I'm sure like a labor of love, right because obviously your cat person so sad to be this had to be incredible. So tell me what is something that and you because I just feel like you you know so much, and especially
about cats. What's something that you discovered while writing this book that you never knew before. If there's one thing, it might be more, Well, there are many more. I learned a lot, but the one that comes to mind. Is I think that partly relates to the title of the book. To me, the quintessential feature of a cat is it's meow. You know, That's what cats do, and they meow to us. Anyone who's lived with the cat knows that the cat is meowing and is trying to tell
you something. Right. I always assumed that cats meow to each other as a means of communication, and that they had just expanded their social network to include us, right, But it turns out research shows that that is not the case. That when people study colonies of unknowned cats living outside and watch what they do, they do not meow to each other very much at all. Really, the meow, the tendency to meow to people is something that
has evolved recently in the domestic cat as part of the domestication process. Wow. And so I guess that could be compared to how we always talk about you know, dogs came from wolves and humans made them change over the years to become domesticated dogs. So is that similar with cats, since the meow is more of a human thing, is it is? Definitely? Well, let me qualify that. Okay, all small species of cats meowm but they don't meow to each other, and they don't meow to people in zoos when
they're raised by people. So the domestic cat has modified its behavior to use the meo as a way of communicating with us. And they've actually changed how they meow. If you compare the meal of the domestic cat to that of an African wildcat that's the ancestral species, the domestic cats meo is shorter and higher pitched. And when people here there are asked to compare the two meos, not being told which which is which, they always rate the domestic cat
is more pleasing that the sound of the meow interesting. And so the cats have changed their meow to better better, to be better received by us. And that is one part of domestication, just like the traits that dogs have evolved, right right, And that's kind of fascinating. I mean, I'm sure the general cat owner does not know that. And that's where your book is coming, you know, that's why they need to read your book, because to learn stuff like that. I mean, I think it's pretty fascinating.
So well, there's just all kinds of yes, I agree, yes, but go ahead, you were going to say they're all kinds of well, because they're just all kinds of things about cats that I think people will be surprised to learn about and how and how we know these things. How scientists there's a whole group of scientists that specialize on studying the behavior and biology of domestic cats. And we've learned an incredible amount, right, right, And so I mean back in the day with cats. They because I mean
we see cats, we see cats in mummies and tombs. I mean from like a long, long, long, long time ago. So they've been around forever and evolved from Africa. Correct, correct, Although they haven't actually been domesticated, Cats around nearly as long as dogs have been. Cats were certainly domesticated by thirty five hundred years ago in Egypt, and maybe a bit
earlier. But dogs, by comparison, have been domesticated at least fifteen thousand years maybe even forty thousand years ago, So dogs were domesticated a lot earlier than cats are that the domestic cat is a recent addition to the pantheon of domesticated animals. Do you think is there a reason for that or it's just it is what it is. Well domesticated, So dogs probably were domesticated while people were still hunter gatherer living in a hunter gatherer sort of way. Cats
weren't domesticated until we settled down and started farming. And then what happened is we uh we you know, people grew a lot of crops and stored them, and that attracted rodents, and then the African wildcats started coming into villages to take advantage of all these rodents. And then we saw that they were beneficial and we treated them nicely, and then they evolved to be even friendly
or to associate with us more, and eventually they were domesticated. But it's a result of our settling down and living in villages, right right, And I mean, and of course you say with rodents, and that's kind of a fact, right, if you have a cat, you're not going to have mice in your house. I mean, they're there. They are very good hunters. There's a consummate predators. So, yes, you have a cat, and the chances that you will have mice as much less, right,
That's yeah though, that's for true, that for sure. Actually, So I'm assuming like over the over the years, all the breeds that we have what we currently have, we did not have all the breeds of cats, I mean, to me, there are so many, and I feel like that's evolved as well over the years. Correct, Absolutely, most cat
breeds have been developed in the last fifty to sixty years. There are a few, so the idea of having breeds of cats at all only goes back to the late nine late eighteen hundreds, but most most breeds were developed within the last seventy five fifty years or so. Wow. Wow, And how many I mean, I don't know how many would you say approximately breeds are
today? Well, there are different cat organizations that recognize different numbers of breeds, but the most, the most permissive organization I think, recognizes about seventy three breeds of cats. Okay, all right, Well that's fair and yeah, I mean, and that's a lot. That's a that's a pretty hefty number at this point, right, yea. And many of them are just you know, slightly different hair texture or color. But some of them are
quite out there. There's a short legged cat called the Munchkin, and there's the hairless cat called the Stinks that people may be familiar with with. It was in the Austin Power movies and so on. And there are a few other really kind of odd cats that have been domesticated recently. Odd breathe right right, And can I ask you how many cats you currently have? I'm just curious. We have. We have four cats. One of them is at my foot right now w meowing at me. But we have four cats
and they keep us very busy. Was there anything in your book that or was there anything about your cats that you didn't realize until you started to do all the research. I mean, I know we spoke about the meow, but until you started to do research for your book. Yeah, well, there are a lot of things. Yeah, my cats do do feature in
the They have a starring role. Probably the most unexpected thing to me was that one of my more recent cats, named Nelson, we got him a few years ago, and we got him we bought a lot of toys to play with him, and after a few months he was still a kitten, he started bringing the toys to me. He would walk across the room with the toy in his mouth. He would drop it at my feet and then
look up at me, I mean clearly saying playtime. And then if I threw the toy across the room, he would madly dash and get it and bring it back. He was fetching the toy and I hadn't trained him to do that, he just did it naturally. Well, I thought that was extraordinary. I'd never heard of such a thing. I thought that he was the greatest cat in the world. He is actually the greatest cat in the
world. For other reason. And you know, if I had all these ideas of taking him on the Tonight Show or America's Got Talent or something, well, before doing that, maybe I should just do a little investigation. And it turns out that people have ducted surveys of people who live with cats, and these are not unusual traits. Then about twenty percent of cat owners say that their cats will bring them toys to play with and we'll fetch and so cats, some cats do that. But I had no clue of that
until my own cat and Nelson started doing it. Wow. And that's and it's just a random thing. I mean, it just so happens, right, It's not it's not anything someone can say, Oh, I'm going to adopt this cat and then they bring it home and oh, look the cat is getting its toys. It's just it might happen. It might not right. It's just a rant like it's like a personality trait. I guess, yes, well that's exactly it. It's you know why they do that.
I mean, presumably it's a trait that evolved as part of domestication for some reason. There are some breeds that tend to do it more than others, so it's related to breed a little bit. But it's not like all Siamese will do that or no Persian cats. It's you know, some in some breeds, some cats will do it and others won't. Yeah, yeah, I mean and for people who are I would say, for dog people, they would say, oh, that's a cat, that's like a dog.
You know what. People say that sometimes. Yeah, In fact, we consider Nelson to be a dog and cat's clothing. Yes, you look at him and he purrs, and you come in the door, he comes running up to you. He's really very dog. Why he is dogging? Yeah, I have to say that. I'm a cat person. I've never really understood dogs until now. Now I get it why people like dogs because they act like Nelson does. That's really funny. So see you look at that.
So your book not only is has benefited cat people, but it's benefiting dog people as well, to teach them about cats and cats that are like dogs. Yes, yes, exactly, No, it's perfect. Well, I just think it's it's first of all, I love the cover. Is the cover one of your cats, by the way, No, it's the publisher's got that cat. Okay. I argued for my cats, but they
said they could, they would, they would get another one. There was actually there was never a doubt that there would be a kitten on the cover, but that they came up with that all right, But it's actually it's a very adorable kitten. I was going to say, if that was you one of yours, adorable. But I feel like the whole book is besides very informative, it's also it's done in a fun way. I mean, obviously that was your intent to get the facts out, but in a fun
kind of way. Well, I'm certainly glad that you felt that way, because that was my goal. You know, as a scientist, this is not rocket science. I knew I could explain it, but I wanted people to want to read it, to find it interesting and enjoyable. And certainly the material is there, there's such great stuff to write about it, and my goal was to do justice to that material by making it fun to read.
So I'm delighted you thought it was. Oh no, absolutely absolutely, And I have to be honest, I like cats, but I'm more of a dog person. But your book actually taught me more, taught me stuff about cats that I didn't know. So when when it's it's for the cat lover, but it's also for anyone. I think it's for anyone who actually loves animals because it's very like I said, you're the smartest person in the room, but you actually make it very entertating for us. So that's very
important. That's very good that you did. Well. No, but it's true. But it's very very true because sometimes there are books, and especially because like I said, you know, you're an evolutionary biologists. You're very smart. You're smarter than many people who roam the earth. But you could read a paper or a book. And for the person who isn't of the same you know, doesn't have the same brain that you have, it's hard to read or understand, but you made it. You made it very fun
and informative, and I really I did enjoy your book. So I just know it's good. So let me just ask you this, because this was fun for you to write, do you think you would do it again? Like another with all the research that you did that maybe didn't make it to the book. Well, there is a lot of other stuff to talk about. And I have enjoyed writing this book. I mean, I've I've spent my career being a scientist, and I enjoy doing the research and writing scientific
papers. But this is my second book I've written for the general public, and I really enjoy doing so that trying to make the information accessible and interesting. And as you said, there's a lot of other material that didn't go into this book. There were topics that I wanted to talk about and it was just too much, right, So I could see writing another book that that might be fun to do. Okay, good, and then maybe we'll you will put one of your cats on the front, tell the boots that
we want that excellent. I will say. There's only one photo in the book, is the last illustration, and it is one of my cats. Yes, that's true, that's true. And which one is that? By the way, that is Nelson's one such toys very cute. Actually, one of the things I was very proud of when they sent me the draft of the book, the Galley proofs that laid it all out, and you know,
I read it for typos and everything. I looked at the index which they put together, and they hadn't mentioned Nelson or my other cats in the index. So I made them put all my entries to my cats in the index. So if we want to read the book and just read about my cats, it's easy to do. See that, and that's on page three seventy seven. But the listeners will really read your whole book before they go to the index. I think, well, I couldn't argue with you.
Okay, it's the cats, me out how cats evolved from the Savanity your sofa, Jonathan Lasses, thank you so much for chatting about it. Where can my listeners get the book? Well, it's any bookstore, Amazon or independent bookstores. It should be on sale everywhere. Excellent. Well, I thank you so much for talking about the book. I thank you so much for writing the book and teaching me and my listeners more stuff than we would know. And keep doing what you're doing. And I hope to talk to
you again, because you never know. Part two, Well, that would be great. This has really been fun, Maria. I really appreciate you invited me on your show. La has never been a Greader operator and this time to see you later for the Gator