Yeah, even thinking about this made me a little nostalgic. So all right, let's do it Hi, I'm Zach and I'll meet you by the orange Julius You motherfucker Why was orange Julius like the one commonality between our intros okay, well, I'm gonna go my name is Caitlin and Today we're gonna go pick up an orange Julius get our ears pierced at Claire's And get some glamour shots Don't give yourselves to brutes men who despise you enslave you who regiment your lives
Tell you what to do what to think of what to feel who drill you diet you treat you like cattle use you as cannon fodder Don't give yourselves to these unnext-row men machine men with machine minds and machine hearts You are not machines. You are not cattle you the people have the power. I Forgot about the glamour shots part of a mall like you're right like there is there is always some kind of glamour shot Section I know did you ever did you ever go into that?
Do I seem like a person that would go into that store? No, I but I see oh, you know, do you think I went into that store? I Think maybe as a young teenager. Am I right? I think you're being really nice Absolutely, I got my picture taken any any chance I get Absolutely, I went in there and I even Zach I tried so hard to dig up. Well, I didn't try hard I was like damn if I had more time, I would dig up some of those photos. Oh my god, that'd be amazing
We all spend some time on Sunday. So by the time this podcast comes out. We'll post it on our Facebook group I love it and I want to see them and I will hold it over Like I'm gonna put those pictures as like all your reference for me like if you text me that picture Like I'm Integrating those glimmer shots in the every part of our conversations I just have the best idea. We should do glamour shots for our company profile pictures
I love it. Okay. I'm into it. It's always the weird like it's always like awkward poses though
Yeah, yeah, yeah, have you hold like awkward poses? Yeah. Yeah. Well the backdrops are the best I had a friend or I have a friend and Well, she's actually one of our designers that works for us kind of Sporadically contractually And there's like a store in LA that's all the rave that does glamour shots And it's just one of those things that is like that vintage aesthetic that people are just like gravitating towards again
So this place is just booming with business and she got her headshots taken there and they're fucking amazing. They're I would love that With her permission, maybe I'll post those on our group Yeah, bring it back because I've seen like it like in Toronto one of my favorite cities like that I was walking down the street and they had like a selfie store Whereas like all these different backdrops and you could like go in and pay 20 bucks and it's like like they'll like take your pictures
And like you'll get it. It's it's a market. I guess it's a business, you know 2020s of glamour shots 2.0 Well, if you haven't guessed already we are gonna be talking about the rise and the fall of the American malls Fascinating Zack did you have a mall job? No, I actually didn't have but I applied to a lot of you are cool enough I was not cool enough and I was I applied so many times
I thought it'd be so cool to work in a mall. Can we pause here and tell our listeners what your first job actually was? Oh, yeah, so my first job was working in a farm
I was like detastling corn. I'd sit in a tractor all day They take us up and down the cornfield and I tell you all the time Like I had to like pull the little like like the little furry thing at the top of the corn and just throw it on the ground Like to this day, I still have no idea like zero idea why I was doing that But it was all day thing going up and down up and down and my favorite part of the story was
All the bosses were like on a prison work release program. So it was like all these inmates I was like 14 is like these inmates were my bosses. You're like, let's get your ass out there Like and I'm like, okay, I guess I'm not messing with these guys I just love the era that we grew up when your parents were like, this is a great life experience for You should go work for prison inmates and do something that you're not really quite sure of why you're doing it
Like this is a great life experience. Yes. Yes. I completely agree And like there was one day where they were like Zach there's a special assignment for you today and like they took me into this barn and there was like a 10-foot pile of goat manure just sitting in the barn and then I had to like take a pitchfork and like move it to the other side of the barn and This day, I still don't know why I was doing that
I was like, why am I just moving this pile of shit 20 feet and that's when I knew I was like, I'm a city person I'm never gonna make it as a farmer. I don't get it But if any listeners know why you move shit 10 feet from one side to the other I'm still curious to this day. Google hasn't been able to solve my questions God yeah, that has to be my favorite story about you It has nothing to do with this podcast, but I did feel like it was necessary. I don't know why but did you work at a mall?
Did you work? No, I grew up in a mountain town So the mall was an hour away But I will say that when I was 14 15 years old and I got that paycheck from my job You bet your ass I went straight to the mall and I have my driver's license I was driving my car and I would go by myself like this was something I Love to do. Yeah, honestly as I got a little older Like there is like cuz I still pop into a mall every now and then right like I'll just go
I'll go like walk around but going by yourself. It's like a nice mental space. You know, I get a coffee like walk around Not the same allure that it was but not a bad space. Yeah. Yeah, definitely You don't have to wait for anybody, you know, you're not interested in a story. You can just go to the next one. Yeah, so I'm gonna tell us a story So there's not you feel free to interject to ask questions because this piece of the podcast is just gonna be story time
Oh, it's Friday morning. I'm ready for story time Relax. I got my coffee. We're ready So this I'm like wiping tears because I was laughing so hard at the shit This story comes from business insider Video of kind of the story and the concept of a mall So the story of the mall begins in the 1950s America was experiencing an unprecedented economic boom the economy overall grew by 37% I kind of stopped here and I was like why what was do you know why I kind of post
World War two ish kind of like it settled in and I think all the the baby boomers. I think people were Having babies everywhere. Right? It was like it was post World War two and that was it was kind of
Sad because it's like while the rest of the world is in just total fucking destruction like America is over here booming. Yeah So I was like what what happened in the 1950s and people accredited it to Eisenhower's combination of low taxes balanced budget and public spending The middle class had more money to spend than ever before we knew this the 1950s was really when we saw this middle class Strengthen and they were spending it on houses and cars
Along with this the economic boom Eisenhower's federal aid highway act meant that people could drive to their jobs in the cities while living in a new kind of development We know what this is a suburb. Yeah The burbs, baby a boom of the burbs
That's what the podcast is named the boom. I like that the boom of the burbs. I like that suburban populations rose Astronomically, but they lacked what sociologist Ray Oldenburg called the third place Under this model home is known as the first place where you live The second place is the workplace and the third place is this vital space where you can go to exchange ideas
Form relationships and create communities. So that third place for social interactions Fascinating enter Victor Gruen a man who would later become the quote king of retail He had already made a name for himself designing boutiques But now he set out to design an indoor downtown. Oh Wow That's a very interesting concept. Okay. I love this I'd know Victor Gruen hated Literally despised what the mall turned into even though he was the inventor of a mall and he quote called it a land virus. Oh
I like that too man Victor's got away with words. All right. We love Victor. He was also a staunch socialist So which is kind of a little bit ironic Yeah, I like him so we do love Victor. Um, so it on October 8th, 1956 America's first indoor mall opened in Minnesota, oh
Interesting is it interesting? Yeah, I'll pause. I'll let you tell the story. But like yeah, okay. That's interesting It's called Southdale Center Southdale Center So it not only had shops, but it had fountains and our Installations it had a bird sanctuary a Courtyard and all of this within a single indoor complex so you can see his original vision and how the mall kind of you know
Transformed from that original vision and why he now calls it a land virus. Yeah The bird sanctuary part It truly is it sounds like an oasis like Go in and just relax Yeah The mall received mostly rave reviews deeming it an attraction on par with Disneyland Which opened up just a year earlier in 1955 Walt Disney himself even cited Gruen as his main influence behind the ideas behind Epcot Center. Oh Wow
The story is already fascinating. Yeah, I can see it. Have you been to Epcot before I have but it's a bit I I don't know why Epcot Epcot it's less like rides and Disney Kind of themed things. It's like Epcot has like the world it has like shops and restaurants Countries, okay, it is kind of modeled in that but every section has a different country So there are rides there, but it's really not like Disney Focused, okay? I think it makes sense. Okay
Yeah, I had been to Disney World, but it's been I mean 20 years maybe. Oh, you're not a Disney girl, huh? No, I am not And that's maybe that's maybe a story for another time, but that had everything to do with my upper Okay, it's not a story for another story for now. Yeah, you can't just preface that It had everything to do with my upbringing. My dad hated labels. He hated labels Oh, I was not allowed to wear anything with like Mickey Mouse or Minnie on it like Yeah, bizarre
And then why I have no idea. In fact, I'm gonna call him up and ask him after that Like it's just so weird and my dad is not like super strict about things by any means But for whatever reason when I was younger like he had rules against wearing Disney clothing And then I just feel like yes, I've had my fair share of Disneyland I've been to Disneyland a couple times and I just do not enjoy it like too many people and
They're just like unhealthy looking people. I'm sorry, but it just like I don't want to stand in line It's just not how I want to spend my day Nope, it's it's kind of the worst kind of people like it is it's it's not a lot of fun It's not fun. It takes the over crowdedness takes the magic out of it. You're just like 100% This is not my ideal of a fantasy. Nope. Nope
Okay, yeah, I just distracted you from your story. I knew I was gonna do that already No, I was gonna say it is weird because my mom is a Disney fanatic like she loves me I know it is bizarre. So her and my brother actually used to go every single year. Well, me and my dad were like deuces Really, I know I know she loves Disney And yeah, so it's it's an interesting dynamic and I yeah Just I'm looking at your face. Are you having like some family like revelations now?
Like this podcast is like part therapy. You're like whoa, maybe was there like some back room debate about Disney clothes with your mom and dad like They close the door, you know Kate would wear Disney I pick my battles and the Disney clothing is not one I choose to go down So, you know
This is not as an unpacked Caitlyn's childhood trauma podcast. It's going to serve as a we're moving on It's a little piece of Caitlyn's history So By 1960 so this was just four years after Gruen's first mall opened there was 4500 large shopping complexes in the United States like wow moved fast Wow By 19 oh go ahead. Sorry. I keep going by 1975 malls and shopping centers accounted for 33 percent of all retail sales in America One third of all retail sales Wow, are they counting like strip?
I mean, I'm I don't know if you know, but are they counting like strip malls like those kind of like areas is it over? Oh now we want to get into a mall
All I'm saying suburbs are known for strip malls. I don't know if we classify them in there I don't know if we go down so I don't talk about strip malls, but I do talk about mega malls Maybe strip malls is a time 33% that's that's unbelievable and in comparison This day and age e-commerce makes up for about 33 percent But think about the internet and how much opportunity there is to purchase on the internet versus a mall So the fact that the mall captured this type of audience in
In such a small space is pretty unbelievable Unreal I absolutely I mean it must have been like so successful right people just saw dollar And they just like started putting them up everywhere Yeah, it's kind of like I love the comparison to e-commerce because it's kind of like e-commerce sites You know like a you see Amazon making money and then all of these e-commerce sites are popping up everywhere There's millions of them out there, right?
Amazon is the mall of the digital age. Yes, it is. Yes, it is Gruin utopian vision for the mall had not been realized Cheap food courts were installed where courtyards were supposed to be instead of this cosmopolitan community developers often surrounded balls with enormous parking lots and Suburban housing projects is that so true when you think of a mall
You're you think of a parking lot like those two things are absolutely synonymous. Yes, absolutely And then my in my rebellious days, we would go to the you would go to the mall I would go to like the mall parking lot and so we Weed yep, it was literally it was literally so big like you could just park in the corner smoke weed and no one would bother you Oh By the night, okay, so the 1980s fast forward to the 1980s This was the golden age of the mall
shopping complexes continue to build at a rate of over 1,000 per year and in 1986 consumer reports named the shopping mall alongside the birth control pill antibiotics and the personal computer one of the top 50 wonders that has Revolutionized the lives of consumers isn't that so interesting like a shopping mall in comparison to a birth control pill or antibiotics, let's even like something that actually helps people survive and The ball is compared to something like that
That's incredible. That's incredible. Gotta love consumerism. Yeah, love it. Bye Capitalism, baby. Um, so the golden age, you know 80s teenagers This is really where that centralized idea came into play. This was where they went to escape and Socialize yeah, and I do want to take a pause. I mean a thousand per year. That's three malls a day essentially like opening nationwide that's crazy Day whoever owned construction companies was Crashing in those years
Good time to be a construction owner. Yes. Yes, absolutely The American mall would reach its peak in 1992 with its final evolution the da da da the mega mall mall of America opened with a whopping 5.6 million square feet and I say a million square feet and I can't even Conceptualize how big that is I have never been to the mall of America But I do not know what a million square feet is let alone 5.6 million Nope, I can't I've never been either but that's why I thought
Victor opening Minnesota was interesting because like that is where Mall of America is, you know, like When I first started down this podcast, I thought that that mall was going to be turns out the Mall of America It's not it is two separate malls, but it is interesting that both of those concepts happened in Minnesota Yeah, so the Mall of America opened with 500 stores a theme park with 27 rides an Aquarium a wedding chapel in a movie theater How pissed would you be?
You if yeah, like if your husband was like, yo, let's get married at the Mall of America like who? Who signs on for that? I wonder how Yeah, except now in this day and age of like throwing it back and retro and vintage Like it's probably a claim to fame to be like let's get married at this cool vintage spot the Mall of America Like you know like that that can make up some good pictures
We could have the reception at the Orange Julius. It'll be great. It'll be great. Oh circle. Orange Julius makes a comeback The mega mall was a mentally Mentally profitable Reports showed that consumers were 50% more likely to buy something at an attraction filled mega mall than at a regular mall Leading to several more mega malls being built across the 50 states and I just like let's pause here Don't you just love this? Isn't this like the most American thing you could possibly do?
Like we can't just have a good thing. We can't just let a good thing be a good thing We have to make more
Money and make it bigger like that is the most just make things bigger. It's the American way Yep, just keep going until it's too big and it crashes and like American way that is the American way We're such greedy capitalists So I mean honestly that was the peak of it the mega mall was the peak in 1992 Wow, so because the size of the mega mall and this like unsustainable rate of construction Would lead to the collapse of the mall I mean if these investors if mall owners had you know
Got it their way Though every single city would just be like a mall on every corner and like you guys know that that's not sustainable
Like what are you doing in in my town growing up? We had one mega mall woodland mall In Grand Rapids across the street from another mega mall There was two mega malls Literally across the street from each other like center point woodland like they were and it was like competing like that makes no sense to me Like that's a big on big right like did you did you know the word mega mall?
I had never heard the word mega mall until the No, I had not heard of it, but like they were mega malls like they had Attractions they were huge they like they tried to they definitely fit the bill I have never been to this quote-unquote mega mall. I do not know what a mega mall looks like or Feels like so so was there in these two malls that you grew up next to yeah They had what you said attraction So did they have roller coasters or like what type of attraction?
No, not like theme park stuff But like attractions in the sense of like, you know little kid rides and like fun things to do like I do think It was I considered in my mind a mega mall as in like There's a bunch of stores food court the works, but they also have like little things here and there not as big as Mall of America Where it's like a theme park? Yeah They had like little things to like go and they they wanted you to hang out there all day. That's what I'm considering a mega mall
It's not like you go in there's a couple shops. It's like these are large complexes with multiple things to do Would I be wrong in that interpretation or I? think um I don't think you're wrong. Maybe what you're describing is how I would deem it like a What's what's a step down from mega like uh? ultra Yeah, like a big size like a like an SUV mall Yeah, a mini-man not a Hummer mall Yeah, okay, okay My malls were like the um, I
Don't know CRVs malls. No like a camp Corolla. I grew up with Corolla malls. You grew up with
SUV malls SUV malls. Yeah the escalate malls. Yes. I'm with you. I like that. There's different tears We have just established Comparing them to cars, you know, I think that fits I think that fits So I don't know so, you know the peak of it was in 1992 But then you you get to the 2000s and you do see this steady decline of the mall because We can't let a good thing be and we just keep building and building and building so as a marketer
And you start to see this steady decline. How do you pivot to start to stay relevant? That's a great question and you like prefaced me with this this morning to think about it and I do think You know Mall of America kind of had it right and you mentioned it I do think the original vision of Victor where it's a It's almost like a theme park is the way to go, right? Like it's a day to spend out with your family
Take the kids go to the mall. There's other things to do I just do think that the part of the decline is they relied so heavily on retail like that and you're right like it was just shops on shops on shops and As e-commerce came along I think these malls saw e-commerce as their competitor when they should see Disneyland as their competitor Right like how do we get people to instead go from a theme park to come spend the day with us and
Have a nice day of hanging out and doing things, right? What are your thoughts on that? Yes, I actually went back to Victor Gruen's original concept as well And granted I did a little bit more research than you did so I have a leg up on you, but idea And granted this was the 2000s. So I'm kind of Well, you know what? I'm gonna save my idea I'm gonna save my idea for the wrap-up of this okay because it's more relevant to today and how we can like save the mall Oh, yeah, I like that. I like that
I'm gonna start a good campaign save the mall. Yeah, but like even like making sure there's an arcade, right? Like making sure like there's something that you can just kind of like hang out in especially for the kids
I think is key. Yeah, right. Yeah, I think you nailed it I think in the 2000s if you saw that decline you should go back to the original concept that worked and Start putting in a green space, you know start putting in that bird atrium or Or yeah, make it an enjoyable place to hang out this
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I and then I'll just tack on one more thing like I you know I spent a long time living in Europe and abroad and they the malls are like still prevalent there Like they still utilize the malls and it's because like they're a little different than the US They they do have like atrium and and big hangout spaces and it is kind of true to that original vision, right?
Like it's still stores, but really Designed to be a community hub and they're still they're still popping over there, you know, where did you say you broke up? Oh in Europe. Sorry like yeah, yeah, just kind of trip Portugal There was a bunch of malls and even like when I lived in Cyprus the little island in the Mediterranean There was like the centerpiece to their entire city pathos that I was in was this high-end super ritzy mall
And that's where everybody went. That's where I went, you know to go get stuff and it's just it's still a centerpiece, right? Their culture over there, which is fascinating Well, they mall investors Did not go back to the original concept of Victor Gruen's mall They just suck in through a Hail Mary and Made the mega mega mall Oh my god, this opened in 2019 in New Jersey and It had not only a theme park. It had a water park. It had an ice rink and it had an indoor skiing complex
Indoor skiing complex. You're a skier. Would you ever go to an indoor skiing complex?
Um, well, I shake my head and I almost said absolutely not but now that you asked me I'm kind of like interested to just see what that was like, but no, no, I wouldn't you know Because the whole of skiing is getting outdoors Riding a chairlift I bet this I bet this complex you ride a fucking elevator and you're taking off your skis You're putting them over your shoulder like that is so I'd not taking off my equipment Just to put it back on over and over and over again like no thank you
Yeah, okay My kind of skiing where I don't have I get nervous with the chair lifts when I You don't know when snowboarding like they stress me out So if I had an elevator, I'd be like, yep sign me up, you know But only an elevator that you could just like slide into where you did not like take off all your stuff Yes, like I'm with you and unfortunately, you know this opened in 2019 And then the pandemic hit so
Who knows if this place ever had a chance to survive but the pandemic on top of it like Shirley is gonna bury this mall I didn't take the time to follow up on how this mall is doing because I don't think two years three years is enough of a
Qualifier to figure that out. So yeah, we'll be silently rooting for you mega mega mall in New Jersey Or just like preparing our goodbye, you know, just be like, all right Or maybe you just won't be a blip on anybody's radar and you can silently just Disappear although you really silently disappear because you just fucking like put your footprint in the middle of New Jersey like Millions square feet you took up. Yeah So, yeah, well done destroying the earth time it changed. Am I right?
Marketing Okay, so marketing the mall marketing for you specifically Zach I found an article that referenced the ancient pottery markets of classical Greece as one of the first Form of mall advertising any ideas on what tactics they took or how they did it the ancient Greece Well, I do pottery markets Pottery markets in ancient Greece. I do think I mean they were known for like very robust
Markets back in the day, right? Like they it was I were they the first they were the first kind of civilization to have like a Specified market square, right? I was gonna say that to the end but a fun fact Apollodorus of Damascus built Trajons Market which is now considered to have been the world's first shopping mall. So yes They were the first to kind of revolutionize these markets But why pottery specifically was it just that's what they sold in the markets or? I? Don't know
Okay, but that that was the theme. So I was I was right. God. It's so hard being right Yes, but so but how did you how do you think the pottery markets would would market their product? Do you have any ideas?
You know, I think I mean Thinking back to I mean, I don't know a lot about the pottery market But we're thinking back like they really decorated they took a lot of time decorating these powder these different pottery items so displaying them out front letting people grab them hold them like kind of get physical with the shopping Yeah, yeah touch it and then
Then buy it right and I think maybe that's the way to go. I think you're thinking even too abstractly It's pretty it's actually pretty obvious They painted on objects like coins bricks and city walls They they literally just painted their own murals or painted their own they called them ads Awesome. Yeah Yes And which I just paused and I was like, you know, don't you find it crazy?
That advertising has not come any further than that Because you were like, okay ancient ancient ancient how do they had to have like involved touch? But it's like no they painted on a wall And yeah, same thing we paint on walls to advertise. I agree. I agree. I think if it works, I guess right like
I don't know. I mean like these people threw each other into a gauntlet to be murdered for sport and and this was a spectator sport and now we have football but How has advertising not made the same adjustments like it's just so right You're so right. I think it's just it's it's like it's the classic thing that you and I always talk about with advertisement Where it's all about eye line, right? Like people look at walls like when you're walking if there's some kind of like bright colors
They're good. It's it's all about how to get people to get in their eye line They know walls is a great way to do it. Yeah, like Fascinating and I think you're right like if it works it works like why re-engineer something that works But I don't know it's something for us to start thinking about because we market in such a saturated industry well not even industry just marketing is saturated all this digital space I Don't know just something else to think about like how do we revolutionize?
Advertising beyond painting on walls or in this day and age painting on a cell phone like yep. Yep. Just like making sure Yeah, you're so right. There's probably a new way to do it, right? So The okay, so back to the marketing of malls so obviously after kind of painting on walls Fazed out the course of invent of course the invention of printing came So then we started utilizing pamphlets and newspapers For the shopping mall so their marketing strategy really revolved
I'm sorry, I'm jumping around a little bit. So I'm just gonna kind of piece this together So one yes, but the start of mall advertising happened in ancient Greece They painted on walls to kind of get people to come to their markets And then fast forward kind of like the industrial era We started printing and then there's you can run ads and newspapers and pan you can hand pamphlets and leaflets Yeah, now the marketing of malls in the 1950s was really structured around
Find everything you need in one place. It's worth the drive So they started pushing out this message in every single Platform that they could so a lot of it was televised radio That was they really relied heavily on this messaging and It was all about this is worth the drive like trying to get people like
It's worth it to come here get everything you need. That's kind of the messaging get everything you need I am going to chat you a link right now And this is a you to or this is a mall commercial that I found and I love it from the 80s Could not be more It's so funny. We're talking about I mean I don't know if you've seen the new season of stranger things too But it is all set in or I think it was the previous season or something like that It was all set in a mall, right?
Exactly the first thing I thought of was oh the golden age of the 1980s and then I went to stranger things Oh, yeah, it took place in a mall. Oh The Syracuse nostalgia presents, huh? Okay. Oh, Jesus. Are we watching it together? Yeah, let's watch it together I got a skip and add Okay I'm terrified I accidentally let it play like ten seconds in Why were doll why are dolls so terrifying?
Okay, so go ahead and play it. This is a Fayetteville mall commercial in 1986 New York Watch Christmas come alive with storybook scenes in Santa visit to light up little faces You'll find gifts for friends and family something for him and something for her gifts from high tech to high fashion Exciting toys and Christmas is everywhere and it's there at Fayetteville mall Interesting I love it And it really did like throw me back to a bit of nostalgia
Like it was so nice to go to the oops another mall commercial is playing Hold up. Oh No, I'm in the algorithm. I mean I'm in the algorithm. It's stuck. Um, oh, yeah Yeah, so this commercial just kind of it's around its structure It's centered around Christmas time and it says come to the mall You can get everything you need in one place so you can send your kid to the Santa's workshop While you go shop for high tech We also have high and luxury or high designer fashion or whatever they said
So again, it's just pushing that message. It's too What was it? Mm-hmm. I said and hess is to I was just singing the song, you know, yeah, I don't know They said they said it in there. I said it in the commercial. I don't know what hess is So it was kind of yeah, it was once again pushing that message of get everything you need in one place Um So that was kind of the mall the mall marketing of the 90s the 80s
Yeah, I'd oh sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt but can I I'll add like I do think it's interesting that they centered it around Like visiting Santa and it's kind of speaking to our oh, am I jumping ahead? Oh? I like that call out. That's why I pointed. Yeah, so I think like it's like here's some shops
But also like visit Santa was prominently featured in that ad like go bring your kids. It's not about shopping It's going to like have an experience with Santa and your kids see them bright up And then you can also get all of this stuff In addition to all your Christmas shopping in one place. Yep and The buying power of children did yeah, it goes back to our
Podcast about that. It's like as long as your child is happy you can shop for as long as you want or maybe they could even um Persuade you to buy something that you normally wouldn't buy so I think the mall Had this idea of the buying power of children before that was even really a thing. I Completely agree. They know like if they if the families go there and the kids like you know What's there's like always like a candy store in a mall to
Like like they would just go in there and yeah, I'll sugar it up. Yeah Yep, it's it's incredible. So it was really trying to connect customers with brands But also getting them involved in events and organized by local communities and
Those are kind of the two main aspects behind shopping mall marketing. I Found this quote in the Atlantic that I really liked they said Malls are prison for commerce, but at least the commerce stays inside them You can leave it again So as strange as it may sound the mall also allowed people to leave Commercialism behind like a casino is designed to contain and focus risk So a mall is designed to do it for expenditures and I just thought that was yeah, I thought that was such a great call out
I completely agree, but is it really like is it really the case because we live consumerism in America now? Yeah, yeah, it's like you leave them all and they're still like subsidiary stores all around it, right? Absolutely not contained anymore But I think in the case of this like big, you know golden era where we saw this video take place in the 1986 that was the idea And it was like a field trip like you get to experience all of this
But then you can leave it behind when it's time to like go back to your real life now. We're inundated by Consumerism and shopping and I think that maybe now that we're discussing this I think that leads to the decline of it too. It's not this like experience anymore by any means because you can go to target and get the same thing It's in targets are in strip malls and they're on every single corner
I don't know you can just get the things that you need anywhere. You don't have to go to a mall so it really it really a Kind of minimalizes the experience that a mall initially set out to have yeah Can can I ask you kind of a question too and we can cut it if I'm throwing you off? But like let's say you like are a store owner like you you run like a retail shop What would be in 86?
Let's say what would be your benefit to like buying store space in a mall like I think like that's a big piece of the mall like They lease the store space. What would be the attraction for you to say? I need to be in this mall if you're running the store. I think the first thing would be brand awareness You you might not have an opportunity to spend money on marketing and advertising On billboards or commercials or radio
But in a mall you're capturing all of that foot traffic. That's already there to see other stores I do want to mention too that the mall structure is always the same big department stores anchor malls and then the middle of it is kind of inundated with your Spencer's or your pack sons or your Francesca's like your smaller and then you have the food court So the anchors of the mall is kind of the main attraction like let's go to a Macy's and then you experience other
Smaller stores so hands-down brand awareness and capture traffic that you normally wouldn't see But that allure is gone now right like there's not a lot of foot traffic. So Yeah, it's kind of
Turned on its head right interesting. I would have asked you though, although it did work for hesses That was it that was in the commercial we would draw and neither of us know what the fuck has it is So swinging a miss on that and poor hesses will have to figure out that'll be in our recap next week Maybe there's still like, you know the last remaining blockbuster Maybe there's like a last remaining hesses out there that we just don't know about
Yeah, I know that would be amazing. I depends what they sell. I don't know. I don't know like I hope it's like really something classy like a men's Like suit store or something, you know, like something dairy Handmade yeah, I like that I like that because that was my thing with malls is like they were in when I was young They were inundated with like female clothing like Claire as you mentioned Claire's like a lot of female specific
clothing stores and not a lot of like, you know, I mean PacSun had like male and female, right? But like not a ton of like guy focused right like stores it was I always felt a little excluded on the clothing front You know white man feels excluded people you heard it was a hard It was a hard upbringing. I went to malls and didn't speak like it didn't feel like they were speaking directly to me It was a tough it was a tough spot to be in as a straight white male. It was hard All right, right
Start a group he needs it. He needs a month Yes You actually I mean I joke but that is really fascinating. I never thought about that Yeah, it's just a lot of female centric and yeah I Did you enjoy buying clothes for yourself? Like did you enjoy going? I?
Actually did and I do think I do think and maybe this is a topic we can elaborate on because I mean The original intent was a social hub of the city And I think as they morphed in our age in the 90s and early 2000s as they start to decline it'd be not a full social like community spot, but It's still a social hub for like teenagers, right?
Like when we were growing up like something resonated with teens to like go hang out at the mall like go hang out at the mall so You know I I'd love to buy and close for myself at that age because it was like that rebellious like I want to do it
Like I want to pick my own fashion. I want to see how I you know I want to buy the cool things and you know Hollister and whatever it was like at the time Like you did want to buy your own clothes, so I felt I did yeah I think that's a missed opportunity on malls parts because um, you know I my brother liked buying his own clothes like he enjoys I don't know retail shopping to yeah Whereas I think like the general consensus of men is like that you don't enjoy shopping, but maybe that's not true
I mean this is a focus group of two you and my brother
I'm sure you both enjoy shopping. Yeah. I enjoy it. You know, maybe they were thinking maybe they didn't understand the buying powers of teens At the time because like you know I think of like my dad's generation and your dad's generation and they were very much like I mean They wear the same shirt, you know They have the same design shirt seven different times and like not a lot of fashion choices in that job and maybe they're focusing on that generation of men that they're like yeah suits and
Polo tees and that's about it, right like and and I think our generation was kind of new we were exploring And I think Gen Z is even more like the their fashion is big, right? So maybe let's go back to my original question back in the 2000s when you saw this decline of them all and all they did was just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger Maybe the solution was to start innovating what stores were actually in there and like start introduce
Start actually figuring out who enjoys shopping and your demographic. Don't just keep multiplying Spencer's Yeah, don't keep my orange Julius is like I agree. You know the other one that bothered me I've seen him in every mall who the fuck by sportsy Whatever you say the crystal company score Schwartz key crystals Who goes to a mall to buy?
Like who goes to a mall to buy like you'd always pass the stores and they're gorgeous and glittering and I'm like Who the fuck goes in there to buy crystals at a mall? Swarovski what I don't fucking know some For Swarovski, I don't know it has the little swan logo like that's all I do That's all I know. Did you just see me like do the outline of this one as you were saying that? Great brand great brand identity Swarovski because we can't pronounce your name, but we do know your logo small yes
And I know their stores. They were always so glittery and pretty but like who would who would do that in a mall? You know, they're not crystals there. It's a jewelry store. No, it's like crystals Isn't it isn't it's whatever the name is Swartz key whatever whatever crystals is what it is, right? Well, we'll follow up to the
Conversation in Swarovski. We'll get back. Yeah, but even to expand they have K like K jewelers and like jewelry stores like I Any guy that went to get an engagement ring at a mall maybe like, you know, double-think your life choices Like maybe there's a better option for you out there like K-Jewelers is like really pushing marketing these days, so I feel like K-Jewelers is I don't know
They have the pulse on the radar. Maybe they're onto something. I don't know Maybe they know something I don't but like I would never like go to the mall and then like go to Spencer's and be like Oh, maybe I should pick up an engagement ring Yeah, like yeah If you if you were thinking about getting engaged and you brought your girl to pick out an engagement ring at K-Jewelers I would fucking leave you like done It's like it's like the casco of jewelry, right?
Yeah, it's like just a little more thought and effort into something important goes a long way, right? It's not just like get it done. Yep. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Um, okay. I Love this I didn't think this would be a very long podcast, but it turns out that we have a lot of feelings about malls. I
Agree, I have a lot of feelings about a lot of things. Yeah, yeah So let's talk about now now Really beyond just shifting consumer habits from the department store because that's kind of what we're seeing right now Like people are kind of over the department store But you have to keep in mind that the whole idea of a mall was for this third place For people to live and hang out but in the two thousands what happened to that idea
What happened to this idea of the third place? Yes, Zach the smartphone happened So that third place for people to hang out not only shifted away Like people were over the department stores a while ago But now they've got a new place to hang out. So the mall is becoming obsolete. Oh So you would say the malls even competing with like social media and like online like
Fascinating as you go back to the original concept. Yeah This is a place to hang out and feel good and get an escape But a really in this day and age escapism happens in your cell phone, which is you know We talk about it in every in every podcast we could go down a tangent Yeah, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of things wrong with it, but that is what it is interesting an Article from the LA Times made a good call out saying that the mall was an accurate representation of
Fashion and pop culture at the time. So if you saw Jessica Simpson wearing a bucket hat You could go buy that bucket hat at limited to but it's just not reflective of that anymore It's just junk. It is it's knick-knacks. It's I agree. I agree The mall itself is unimaginably smaller than what you can find on the internet And not in a curated sense, right? Like not in a boutique. You have a fucking Spencer's at every single mall Nobody needs a Spencer's
No, I agree and do you know what Spencer's is? Am I just like? No, no, I'm very aware what Spencer's everyone You should know what Spencer's is it's like kind of like hot topic mixed with like dad gifts mixed with like I don't
Costs toys. Yeah, you can buy like you can buy like bloody Halloween costumes there. That's where you went to become a nurse I don't know I feel like maybe I'm gonna be like a nurse I don't know I feel like I'm gonna be like a nurse That's where you get that's where you get your nurse's certificate Yeah, it's a wild place Did you ever go well, like do you remember any purchases at Spencer's that you made I honestly think that like in college
And beyond that, I don't know. I feel like maybe I picked picked up a maybe a gag gift or two
But I could not there was like maybe two purchases from Spencer's in my life. Yeah Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't I'm not a knick-knack person But like I am a big t-shirt I had a big like t-shirt phase and they did have like funny and pop culture t-shirts in there So I do remember like going in like that wall of t-shirts, you know, and I'm talking graphic tea era The graphic tea area, so I do remember like going in and picking out a few of those
Shot glasses like yeah, Pong stuff like I had like a little stuff like that
But no no big purchases at Spencer's. Yeah, definitely not when I was in high school by any means I felt like maybe I explored Spencer's a little bit more when I was in Yeah, definitely a college like frat boat bro thing absolutely um and I think something else they called out in the LA Times and we've kind of tiptoed around is like at the end of the day in this Day in era like people don't want to buy fashion That's been dictated to them like malls curate stores and you on the internet
You have the opportunity to explore whatever you want So you can find underground labels and truly sustainable companies like wherever you want to fit into culture You can find that piece of the internet ready and waiting for you Versus the mall in the 80s and the 90s that was the culture you had to fit into the mall culture in order to stand to fit in But now it like you have all these corners of the internet where you could find culture
Yeah, it's almost like the death of the mannequin, you know what I'm saying people would like see The clothes like on a mannequin and they'd be like yeah, that's the outfit. I want you're so right But now you can like piece together your own style, right? Wait, that's did you just did you just come up with the death of the mannequin or have you absolutely?
I know right on the spot right on the spot Because it is at first I laughed but at first it's true because like I don't need a mannequin to show me what clothes I like because I can see it on Rihanna Yeah, Rihanna is a much better looking mannequin than any plastic toy, you know, it's like You you want to buy from people and that's yes the bottom line Yeah, and I agree and companies that are like I think it's it's now cooler to be like a niche niche company like you know
I can't speak for teenagers but like the like going back to your dad like the label of Hollister that carried weight as a Teenager our age is now looked at as like oh, that's a that's a lazy form of fashion, right?
Like yeah, I'm with you. I want to just quickly note that that Comment is exactly what kicked off this whole idea There is a documentary out on Netflix called white hot Abercrombie About Abercrombie and Fitch and how Abercrombie's marketing messaging was all centered around whiteness total whiteness and Down to the store level like they cared so much about the whiteness of their brand that they would not hire people of color and and when they got sued for this they actually okay, they
Diversified their employees, but you know what they did they put people of color in the back So the front-facing employees the cashiers would still be that whitewashed college bro frat bro You know Connecticut looking person Yeah, and then they put the people of color in the back stocking Yeah, Abercrombie was one of the places I applied to when I was trying to work in the mall I was like oh, this would be so trendy so cool and you're right even as a white man. I was turned away
I wasn't cool enough. I'm not like Connecticut white man, you know like I'm I'm average My husband Managed in Abercrombie for a long time. I'm so happy. I know that about him now. Oh my god. Yes So that's like a little point of pride like my husband was good-looking enough to work at an Abercrombie people The manager of an Abercrombie manager. Yeah, they were like they were like you're you're white level too
I'm saying like you you're not just front like we're putting you in charge your two point. Oh But I do want to say that he isn't he's only he's half German and half Japanese So he walks up, you know, he really broke barriers back then he stood for the people of color Okay, yeah, we're gonna that's a dangerous road for us to go down but good for good for him, you know I'm proud of him Make sure you keep that on his resume. Yeah, absolutely
But yeah, so the whole Abercrombie story just kind of fascinated me. Well, actually it didn't fascinate me It was kind of obvious to me to be quite honest, but I was like, you know, what happened to malls So that's kind of what kicked this whole thing off. But yes Abercrombie Hollister American Eagle like the staples of malls Let's see here where well, I have one more thing with that I mean the other brand that I think of with air Abercrombie is aeropostal, right?
Like and that that was like the big one and I do know like when I when I Lived in Mexico for a little while like that was a hot hot brand to have like they would get all the unsold Aeropostal stuff and like that was like in Mexican culture like that was like the nice Nice clothes to have so it is interesting even how it's it may be deflating here I don't think it's done that with the rest of the world yet. I think it's still pretty prevalent. Oh Yeah, it's fascinating
Well, that guy that has to be our third follow-ups. We got Hesses. We got Abercrombie and we have Swarovski Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, whatever they do. Another call-out is this booming industry of vintage and
Resale fashion so people don't want to look like they are wearing crisp clothes anymore. That is a thing of the past You know someone was quoted in the LA Times the same article just saying like I don't want to look like I'm wearing a shirt That I just got out of the package if I get if someone asked me where I got it I want to be able to have a story to tell and I find that very true about myself. I Love when someone compliments some sort of clothing items. I love being able to be like yeah
I dug this out of a barrel at Goodwill. Thank you I love that like a lot of me and my friends have a lot of like clothing exchanges So it's cool to also be like yeah, I could pick this up from my girlfriends, you know Like you have a clothing exchange party like you all get together just bring a bunch of clothes and like it's like the Tupperware version
Of 32 year old no, no, no, it's not a party. It just kind of like Happens like maybe well the latest one one of my girlfriends was like I have a ton of shit that I need to get rid of do you guys want to go through it and then that kind of spawned something Everyone's like I also have a ton of shit. Hey, I have a ton of shit and so we brought all of our shit together and exchange shit Amazing that's a great idea. That's a fun party
Come on men. Let's have more fun together. Like why why do we have to like? Sit around and talk sports all day like let's let's do some clothes exchanges. I'd be I did treat me I want to roll that into the male culture a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm down I think that's a great idea. Thanks. I thought you were gonna make fun of me for it No, I mean that was my initial plan, but then you explained it and now I'm like, oh, okay like I
Get it. Yeah, I'm always down to listen. I Also, just love it because it's like It's just another way to save the planet, you know, I'm never ending hunts. I have my soapbox here Don't need and don't buy fast fashion. Okay Let's see new clothing is a saturated mark. Okay moving on Hmm thrift and consignment endeavors are a booming industry It in I'm sorry. And I think it was 2018
It was an 18 billion dollar economy that's set to balloon to a 33 billion dollar economy. So how much do you credit that growth to Macklemore and And Zero I Are you sure not even like 2% not even like come on I'm not gonna lie because what that album came out in 2012 or something which could be like When I really started taking a look at thrift stores Do maybe maybe like 2% right like it was like I I do remember like the thrift store
Like craze after the song thrift shop came out where it was like, oh, yeah, like let's go check out the thrift short store I'm all I'm saying like it is like, you know, just like balls were pop culture a little a little hit song Damn stores to if nothing else Macklemore cook might have just saved our planet He might not have made it very far in the music industry
He was a blip on the radar for two years, but holy shit. Did he have an impact on the thing on climate change Gretta Thurneberg and Macklemore Leaders teams we need thought leader of our time. I don't know you might be right I'm not counting it. I you know, I laughed at first, but now I'm kind of like, hmm Maybe just like one or two percent not the entire thing. But like yeah. Yeah, and what's 1% of 18 billion like that Yeah, like yeah, like a significant amount, right?
So Zach any chance of fixing them all? That's a great question Maybe you can think about that because I do have some bullet points. You know, I worked at Nordstrom and that is what I did I pushed product. I was a producer in the beauty industry and Sorry, not beauty industry, but the beauty department and we all we did day in and day out was make Campaigns for the latest product and
Brands bought those placement. So every time you walk into a department store or the beauty Department specifically because that's all I know and you see like an ad for the latest Chanel lipstick And it's in the middle of the floor and you kind of have to walk around it and it's displaying all of Chanel's latest lipstick They pay for that placement So I think that contributes like that aspect of marketing definitely contributes
To the mall's growth where I should say Nordstrom's growth at the very least like you're getting a significant amount of money from that one placement For a month. It was like twenty thousand dollars But I think to just spin off of that like creating Structures creating an environment Creating a place where people want to go. So stop pushing product down people's throats and
Like more is not better. So don't build more malls make them exclusive again potentially And then use these spaces like these middle spaces in the mall as Visual statements and while I was at Nordstrom, we had a whole team dedicated to To this very thing. So you walk down. So there's like the beauty department and then underneath there's kind of like the men's There was an entire department that had that had an ever-changing
Structure on a monthly basis installment. I should say so different light, you know, they would create like this cool place to go shop And then we had another one on the upstairs level. So one month It would be like hello kitty themed or something or one month. It would be like for dogs for pets And they created this environment and so I thought that was really well done And I think maybe something that malls currently can
Implement themselves. Yeah, I think that's I think that's a great call and I think I see too
I see it going either direction from where it's at right now. I love the idea of Exclusivity like what if malls hired hired personal shoppers again, like you could go to the mall and maybe it's a You know the small fee and you have like as someone that knows the mall that listens to you and then you walk with them and you know, they They help you choose different clothes and piece things together and go to the different stores like that kind of like exclusive Personalized help would be helpful
But I also think in the other direction like if you can't you can't compete with e-commerce convenience, right? Shopping in your sweatpants on your phone is You can't as a mall, right? Like it's impossible where you might be able to get them is price point, right? Like if it's if you reduce the price of Products in the mall and it's cheaper it to just drive to the mall get it Then it is our around line Then you maybe drawing some people back is like maybe it's just like a discount
I don't think area. It's impossible. It's impossible. You can't you can't discount Steeply enough to compete with e-commerce. I mean nothing is cheaper than
Amazon right now, you know and like Amazon's customer service the two-day turnaround. So I actually Respectfully disagree with anything you said Well, at least you put respectfully in front of it some my feelings aren't hurt at all, you know Here's my thing I love that you brought that up though And this is why we're great business partners is like you think about things that I don't and then I kind of come around to him
So, you know, we could continue having this conversation offline and maybe I might come around to it But I hate the idea of a personal shopper hate it. Yeah, this is your Midwest nature and my like very sheltered West Like I hate everybody nature You're like, yeah, I want to talk to someone like walk me through the mall and I'm like absolutely not like let me do this myself Hey, yeah, hey, they have a personal shopper And then the discount
You just you can't compete on that level. So I think in my opinion, this is what I would do This is kind of my suggestion back at my initial question. Yeah, I'm gonna bring it full circle. I think We talked a lot about the repetitive nature and the redundancy of These malls, you know when you walk into a mall in California You're gonna have the same shops if you walk into a mall in New York So I go back to this exclusivity where you revolutionize the stores that are actually in there
Introduce stores to people that they would not normally find like I don't want to see another abacrombie I don't want to see another American Eagle I've seen it before I know what they have to offer show me a Sustainable brand that I have never found before, you know or instead of Lulu lemon Can you provide me an alternative to leggings or athleisure wear?
I want alternatives to mainstream and I think that's what initially the mall Well, no, I don't see I don't think that that's what it set out to do But I think we can pivot to that I think the mall should become an alternative to mainstream instead of being mainstream Yeah, I love that. So let me flip that. I completely agree with you and then so let me flip the script Let's say you're like a niche e-commerce company
Um, who's you know sustainable clothing and you're doing well in the e-commerce front. What's what's a mall? Have to do to pitch you to buy a brick-and-mortar placement like why why why would you draw a brick-and-mortar placement? right stores around me so
And this is kind of what I have this I even got going on this. I was like damn we should invest in a mall Because okay, so I went to this place like a cosmetic Dermatologist in Bellevue Seattle right Bellevue is its own city But Bellevue Washington and Bellevue is known to be like the
Frufru city like that is where all the Cougars hang out. That's where people have a lot of that's where a lot of people have a lot of money So there is this place it was a cosmetic dermatologist and in that place There was a fitness center and then a juice bar and I was like, oh my god I want to hang out here all day. So just kind of expanding on that idea to provide Services in addition to little things that can like you know, you're there for cosmetic dermatology
Maybe there's a unique makeup store. It's not Sephora. It's not fucking Ulta
It's a unique. It's Fenty, you know, Rihanna's brand or it's Morphe or you know, it's a unique brand That you haven't heard of before but they offer sustainable sustainable, you know vegan product, you know It's like you want the whole experience So if I was if I was somewhere if I was a company that was just living in the e-commerce world and a mall pitched me and said Hey, we're gonna have this lineup of stores and guess what in the middle
We're gonna have a yoga studio. So people are not only coming here to shop They're coming here to exercise and everything that your brand stands for we're going to offer that in this place so I think malls just kind of I Start to build their own brand. It's no longer like Fayetteville shopping center. Yeah, it's Fayetteville But what does Fayetteville bring to you? It's yeah, they local local
Handmade, you know and not all of them have to be this like that girl aesthetic. They can be you know artisan Yeah, I think you know catering to sorry. I'm getting like really hype now You're buying me. We're winning me over a hundred percent. Okay. So this is where I ask you for money
How much do you want to invest? I'm just kidding No, but I do want to say like I think you're exactly on the right track because what in our generation Especially and and the younger generation What is seeing the huge rise is farmer markets like farmers markets like go into the farmers markets go into these and it is like Little niche like they just have little tents. I went to one last weekend where it was like little jewelry stores
They're still charging 80 bucks a pop for like a necklace, right? But like it is something that you it's a brand that you don't know It's like it's local. You talk to the designer you talk to the owner That I agree because farmers markets are on the rise and malls are on the decline and it's because it's it's a McDonald's of shopping
Right, you can go to a McDonald's in Cali in New York and get the same thing. Yeah, yeah And Victor Gruen is like you guys totally bastard eyes this my idea of a mall by putting in a KFC Like what are you doing putting in a KFC? I wanted it to be this cosmopolitan Yep, and and so that's kind of the mall evolved into this bastard child Yeah, and I just think about like even still like the Chicago where I'm at like we have the the
Michigan Avenue like it's it's like them. I think they call it the miracle mile and it is like Burberry coach like huge like forever 21 is like five stories. They have the world's biggest Starbucks there It's like a five-story Starbucks. Why do you know world's biggest Starbucks? Like what more can you offer me than like the seven drinks on the menu? Oh, it's like specialty items And like they have a full alcoholic bar too. So you could like go and like get an espresso martini. They have like
Special reserve Starbucks in there. It's yeah, yeah, yeah It is actually there is one in Seattle and I love I don't I go I went to it Maybe once but like it does feel very posh walking in there. Yeah, but you're still ordering the same thing You're still ordering like a microwave egg sandwich. Yeah I'm doing it and I'm paying a dollar extra for it. Yep, and it's worth it. Yeah, the pikes play Seattle one
Like it's five dollars extra. Yeah But it is like but it is like and the people that live here are like, oh Michigan Avenue, but like it's a tourist destination, right? Like people come from all over the Midwest to go shopping. It's it's a madhouse at Christmas, right? Like it is
And it works right it works. I don't know man Yeah, but I just think I think the mall can evolve into I think brick-and-mortar needs to evolve in Itself people are sick of seeing the same stores over and over and over again So let's fucking get Abercrombie onto e-commerce and get girlfriend leggings into malls
Shout out girlfriend leggings. I know I always shout out girlfriend leggings. I'm wearing them right now But um, yeah, it's just something it's like a leg and company that it's sustainable It's made out of plastic water bottles that people don't know about I'm sure they're they do have an audience like they're pretty popular, but it's like I want to see that I don't want to see a lululemon like I've seen it. I'm done. I want to be introduced to something more so I
Completely agree. Let's just revelate Luciana is the idea of brick-and-mortar Entirely and I think malls can survive. I think malls have a chance if we get Spencer's out and girlfriends in Yeah, and what about I mean even is let's just say like you do have like let's say forever 21, right?
Like you do have an e-commerce platform, but you also have the brick-and-mortar What's here in like your gut reaction to forever 21 saying hey like you can promote it on your website Like here's a new shirt, but it's only available in brick-and-mortar to try to get people to like go to like you have Way interesting tactic Yeah, like you have exclusive items that you have to go to the brick-and-mortar store for Instead of offering everything you can online, right?
I love that idea and I am I'm actually just like now I'm spitball and because you talked about like there's like a selfie museum and there's the Museum of Ice Cream where people cannot get enough Of that shit and you know what it is It's just like a whole room painted pink and it's monochromatic and you have a pink couch Like how hard is that to replicate in a brick-and-mortar store? You know, it's not very hard
So you create this whole experience in Seattle. There was a Glossier pop-up The line and I was working at Nordstrom at the time So we all went as a team the line was around the block waiting to go into this Glossier pop-up Why I can buy Glossier online, but they created this pop-up experience where there was you know
Greenery in the windows like they had this I mean to your point. They had like a personal personalized Shopper coming up to you and greeting you and walking you through all the stuff and it's Um, so I think the space itself Needs to feel yeah, not just the mall, but the stores in the mall need to make you want to take a picture of yourself Yeah, I agree like I went to the
Girl I went to the Glossier pop-up in Seattle here. I am and then you create a fandom Yeah, I agree like you have those little I think even if they you know now I spitball into even if it's not like you get these These localized because the the issue that I saw with getting like these brands that you've never heard of is I think the novelty will wear off right like you go the first time and you're like, oh, I've never heard of this brand
You go in there. You love the stuff girlfriend leggings. Oh, this is sustainable. You buy some there next time Are you you're just gonna go to the website and be like, yo, I want more of them, right? So what about you know, what about like, you know, these brands just kind of coming and going so every time you go to the mall It's a little bit of a new experience, right?
Like you maybe are there like brands just kind of like if it's if malls allow brands to rent out a space a storefront for a month And it's like we're here for one month come in here get these exclusive pop-ups And then they're gone and then you come back next time and it's a new brand and like it's always it's kind of this
Evolving shifting experience rather than just set in stone. You're gonna get Schwartz secret stoles or whatever Could not be more of a fan of this idea, but I also want to kind of combat the original argument, which is like People can go and get introduced to girlfriend leggings, but then buy it online but my theory my Proposal is to put in something that keeps people coming back like a yo Yeah, like a juice bar like a wellness center like oh my god, if you just name anything wellness
Your white girl is gonna like You know you get it. So like all the white girls are gonna be like yes wellness sign me up So That experience getting people a juice bar
So replace the orange Julius with something healthy like RX bars or something. Yeah, I don't know There's just so many ways to innovate There's so many cool companies out there that I don't understand why the malls still have a Macy's and a Sears Yeah, heard at both sides You could I don't know I think you're exactly right and so like in our mall Let's let's say the Caitlyn and Zach mall that we're gonna build In an ideal world built for the future instead of anchors as department stores
We have anchors that are like a gym a yoga studio like community Community things right like that is the anchor and then in the shops in the middle are shifting I think that's the mall of the future right like you just have little pop-ups there that are gonna come and go So you have these anchors that draw the community in not for retail But for but for like community engagement back to the original vision Yeah, and then you have this kind of living organism of stores in the middle
That's not just stagnant but always something new and Moving and I love that. I love that I Think I have nothing else to add I feel like we have built this utopian future of the mall and I just want to leave on a good note before either one of
Us fucks it all up. So yep It'll get bastardized enough the utopian vision of the mall has been made We're trademarking it so don't steal it from us But if investors are out there and they'd like to invest in our idea, please get ahold of us or join our Facebook group The best plug I'm gonna let you know I'll let you finish the plug but my god, that was brilliant. That was amazing Our our Facebook group is manipulating the masses podcast and we will put I have a ton of awesome 1986
1980s mall commercials that I'm gonna submit. I hope to find my old glamour shots So you guys can see those I am very young so be nice Yeah, don't put too hard, but you can make fun and that's it. That's all she wrote