EP 2: Bibimbap & Kimchi with Chef Young Cho

EP 2 Bi Bim Bap and Kimchi with Young Cho

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
food, grief, growing, connection, life, love, korean, bibimbap, ancestral, hard, dishes, feel, grandmother, grounded, starts, podcast, great, permission, years, restaurants, daughter, eating

Roshni:
You're listening to the Mango & Gnocchi Podcast. I'm Roshni,

Rebecca:
And I'm Rebecca. And we're asking the question, what is your grief craving? We are both nurses, grief experts and avid home cooks. We’re the founders of Marigolde, a grief wellness platform rooted in food, culture and rituals.

Roshni:
We created the Mango and Gnocchi podcast to highlight the power of our collective food stories. Stories that nurture us, bring us joy, and take us out of our minds and into our heart.

Rebecca:
Welcome everyone to Mango and Gnocchi Podcast. Today we're sitting down with Young Cho. Young is a husband and father, firefighter, and the Chief Operating Officer and Executive Chef of Simple Food Group in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Simple Food Group's mission is to “change the world, one bite at a time, through great food, great hospitality and reconnecting community”. So, in Young's role, he works extensively with local farmers and producers growing and supporting the relationship driven local food system. Welcome, Young.

Young:
Thanks for having me.

Rebecca:
Thank you for being here.

We've been talking about some experiences that you've had in your life, where cooking really inspired you in so many ways, and really related you back to your ancestry, and helped you through some grief journeys and your life. So, if you don't mind telling us just a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and what's going on in your life right now. Like what's inspiring or challenging you?

Young:
Sure. So, I'm first generation here, I was conceived in Korea and born here. My family’s all from Korea. I think that when my grandmother came over, she really was the biggest influence that I had in my life in a lot of ways, and particularly food. She was the most amazing cook, one of the most amazing cooks that I've ever come across. I've worked with thousands, if not tens of thousands of cooks in my life. And she just had that thing, she just had that touch, that ability to put that sort of mystical energy into the food that she created, cooking for a family of six every single day. And she always kept a garden. Obviously, being first generation immigrants, we didn't have a whole lot. And so, working out of the garden and things that she was able to create with really, really meager ingredients was amazing. Things today that I still try and recreate, it just, not even close. It's just, it's something that she had in her hand, in her in her soul, that transfers that no matter how technically proficient I can copy those things, it just doesn't turn that way.

But yeah, I spent a lot of time in the kitchen with my grandmother, a lot of time in the garden with her. It was just always a really grounded place that helps me get back to roots, helps me feel grounded, helps me get back in touch with I think more than just the soul of who I am, but I think just connection to everyone who's come before and particularly my grandmother as well.

Where I am today in terms of inspiration? I tend to be one of those people that see the challenges as opportunities and finding inspiration to be able to make a change and certainly with my daughter has given me a very, very different perspective in life. You know, we started late, you know, I'm late dad. I'm going to be one of those dads that people are like, “Oh, your grandpa came to graduation, it's so nice to see that”. But, really the driving mission for my current company and how I see the world is, there's got to be better, we got to be able to be better, in particular for my daughter, I want her to have an opportunity. Not that I want to hand her a better world, but I want to see, I want her to see that it is possible to make a change, that you that as an individual, that you have the ability to create a better world around you, through connections and relationships with people, and having the ability to have some vision and see a different world and knowing that there are some things in that world you can change. That certainly drives for me a lot to look at, a lot to get better, a lot to change in the world, especially today.

But in the same in the same vein, there's a lot of challenges that come with it. I think it's more difficult now, and I have been in and out of this industry for three plus decades, and I've never seen a more difficult time to be in the hospitality industry, from staffing side of things, supply chain issues. Yeah, you name it, I think that there's so many things that have changed longevity— restaurants in general, you look at the numbers that somewhere between 50 and 90% of restaurants fail their first year, after five years, you have less than 5% success rate and longevity of restaurants being around. I think that's even shorter now. Historically, we've had, you know, food trends or food things that lasted, you know, you might see a trend last three years to five years, five years to seven years. I think with the advent of social media and this constant drive for a dopamine fix, the attention span is shorter, the understanding of how food and how it gets introduced into the world, it's such a small window.

So even recently, there was sort of a donut craze, and doughnuts were just unbelievable, five to seven years ago, and everybody open up a donut shop, there's a donut shop and every corner, how many of those are now left? And then it's cronuts, and then it's this, and then it's that. It's every new thing— over saturates very quickly. And then, unless you're doing things that really build and connect long term, it's almost at a point now where you have to be able to create things that as a base, can have a creative vehicle that people can identify with. So it's a craveable thing for a longer period of time, while still introducing enough new elements to keep the interest. We’re a very, very young food culture in this country. And it's getting better in some senses, and getting worse in others. The level of respect for some of the artisan style producers, and growers, and chefs, and makers is getting better. I think some of that through social media is getting better. But I also think from a general population standpoint, we've been a country, starting back in the 40’s and 50’s, as we're looking to feed more, and became much more convenience-oriented, quality in terms of flavor in terms of products, in terms of how we grew the intensive agricultural industrial complex that we have now, FDA, how that works. But, yeah, there's a lot of that I think that becomes challenging. We're losing small farms at an absolutely historic pace right now. And that homogenization of all of those foods that we used to, at one point in time, be creating 10,000 different types of things. Now, it's predominately the three mains that are out there.

Roshni:
Yeah, yeah, I think you're kind of pointing out, you know, we used to go to restaurants to sort of, it was a sense of connection, community. It was entertaining, there was like an energy around it. But you are right, during the pandemic, and after, it's become, it's like, can you make the math work? And I'm wondering if restaurants and the way the restaurants work, are even relevant for the times we're in? And I'm curious, how do you bring, you know, that really elemental connection of feeding people back into your work like into your community and how you're reimagining that?

Young:
I think, right now, where it starts always, for me is with labor. We're not, even though we source heavily from a local perspective, what really is the definition of local? I think, local, sustainable, farm to table,  those kind of things have now been usurped by marketing. And it's it's almost like greenwashing. So everybody says, Oh, we're local, we’re local, local. What does that mean? And I think if we asked 100 people on the street, you get 100 different answers of what local map, some of them might be geared towards proximity in terms of distance. But what is that this the two miles, five miles, ten miles, is regional? Is it really hyperlocal? So for us, when we talk about it, we really talked about relationship driven food, and that relationship really starts with providing something that is remarkable, something that stops you and says whoa, what is that, you know, something as simple as the mushroom omelet that you know, we're sourcing mushrooms from Eric at River Valley Ranch, he has been growing mushrooms for 30 years now? Forty years? And you know, his mushrooms are amazing. So, for us, his mushrooms plus Lynn’s eggs, at Yuppie Hill Farm, and the way that she takes care of her “girls”, as she calls them. And then, just a little bit of shallot and thyme—that’s it. That's all it really goes into the omelet. People are like, what's in here? What's going on? If we can start there, and really respect the food, and the people who are actually creating the raw ingredients for the food that we make, as soon as somebody asks the question of, hey, what are you doing, why does this taste this way? Then we got an entree, then we can make that connection, then we can do that. We don't put up posters that say, Oh, this is coming from here. And even on our menus, we don't really list who we're sourcing from and what we're doing because that to me, I think panders to sort of the lowest common denominator. It’s a lot of this, proliferation of farmers markets where everybody goes, and they take a selfie with a tomato, and it's like, okay, you bought one tomato, or you went bought a birdhouse at this farmers market. Like, it's not really making any difference. Did you really get to know the person who's growing that tomato, do you understand why they're doing what they're doing? And how that food makes a difference? So for us, we start there, you know, when I, when I have cooks come into my kitchen, new cooks that come in, I'm not that worried about the price of a single egg that they might drop or break. It's the amount of work. I have been with Lynn, and we've moved chickens with her, and we clean out barns, we do that kind of stuff as an organization. Understanding the work that went into it, if we don't sauté it properly, we end up steaming or boiling Eric's mushroom? Like, that's a lot of work that goes into that. So as you identified it, it really is that connection, how do we connect with people. So I always talk about it as relationship-driven food. And if we can connect and build a relationship, on the customer side of things, it always starts with, can you deliver something that is remarkable, in an experience for them that they're putting into their mouth. You know, we want you to be in a space where you are enjoying this, one of the greatest connectors that's available. I think there's two things in the world that really work this way. One of those is food, and one of those is music. We can put a group of 10 people from completely different origins, completely different backgrounds, we don't speak the same language. And if you serve a really great meal, by the end of the meal, they’ll be able to figure out how to laugh, communicate, and connect with each other. And I think music is the only other thing that does that. So for us, it's how do we facilitate that connection through food? And I think that your podcast and the questions that you've been asking, you know, in terms of grief, and how do we move through that? And how do we move beyond that? And how do we help heal through, again, this great connector of all of us through food, it's just an amazing thing.

Roshni:
I'm wondering if you can go back and talk about the connection with your grandmother, like you were saying, you know, how she was elemental in planting those seeds for the work you're doing now? Yeah, like, did she give you advice? Did she tell you how to chop, how not to chop? Because grandmas can be very exacting. And they're loving, but oh, like totally judging, how you're cutting the cabbage. So yeah, I'm curious, you know, what was she like? How long did you grow up around her? And sort of how do you keep her presence going in the kind of food you're cooking now, you know, either it's for your customers or even for your daughter?

Young:
Yeah, I’m gonna get choked up here, going through this process, that she has been passed now for 27 years this year in December. And I still feel there every day. I still see her through it. I still, I still, I can still smell her as I walk through the house. Like when my daughter was born, there are so many moments where I knew she was there because I could smell her. I could smell her around my daughter, I could smell her up the stairs. So that’s, it really started at a young age. I mean, for those of you who are around Koreans a lot, we're not a not a very “happy-go-lucky” people in general. It's a pretty, pretty hard group and my grandmother was incredibly, incredibly compassionate and loving, and it came through predominantly in food. And she certainly had some kind words say, but there were no, there were no participation medals with my grandma. So, if you were not doing things right, you were out of the kitchen. Like, you didn’t even get an opportunity to like, say you're standing around the corner looking at what she's doing, and you get to see some of the end results. I still to this day—washing rice is one of those things where I can hear my grandmother's voice all the time. You're breaking the rice, you're doing this, this is that, you know, why are you putting your hand there to catch rice, if you’re pouring at the right pace, the rice grains aren't gonna fall out of the pot. Like all of those things I can hear. And again, there's a handful of things that that I make that, that are close to what she, what she did in terms of flavor. And those are things that they're, they're just, they're wonderful, like, they just really hit well. And then there's other things where, when I don't get it right, or I'm not getting close, it still pulls that connection. And there's it, it almost at the same time deepens the longing for seeing her. Sorry. But it also also really drives that connection. So like, when my daughter is eating now, and she's, she's very much, she's very much a independent spirit. And so she's certainly got her own opinions about things. And it's, it's cool to see that she's now starting to find and develop enough patience to sit around with food, and work with me cooking and doing some of the things that she does. And so in that sense, every time I go to a, you know, an Asian grocery store, and make certain dishes or even the cooking and washing of rice, those connections are always still there. And, and from a lesson standpoint, I think one of the greatest things that that I learned as a lesson, my grandmother was not a, I'm going to sit you down and teach you a lesson. It was a lot of, you know, here's how it's going to work, and you pulled whatever lessons you could out of it. And there were so many of them. So many of those interactions rich with lessons. But she taught me so much about the discipline and respect about how you process and how you do things that you do. There are very specific things that you do it a certain way. You wash rice a certain way, when you're skimming off from you know stocks in the sink, you do it a very specific way, there's no, there's no shortcut to it. She used to make this amazing dish, which I just can't for the life of me figure out how to do, she would take potatoes that essentially cut perfect, julienne made a quarter inch quarter inch long thins, almost like shoestring potato chip type of cuts. And she would do it all by hand, make it perfect, every single one of them was perfect. NASA could come down and run it as a calibration tool for the things that they're doing. And then poaching it in a very specific way, and then cooling it in a very specific way. And she just did it instinctually and intuitively, but it's because of that practice. From a blindfolded state, she understood how her hand worked with a knife and we talk as chefs like, that knife becomes an extension of us, who we are. And when you get to that level of skill, then you can transfer energy, because you're not just thinking about the technical side, I think that's one of those lessons from her. Like, you have to practice at such a level and get to such a state of skill that you then get to simply transfer energy through what you're doing, rather than focusing so much on the technical aspect of what you're doing.

Rebecca:
Wow, yeah. That's so beautiful. You know, you're bringing up so many sensory experiences. I'm just curious, you know, with your experience of grief in your own life through personal trials, and you certainly come across it being a firefighter and EMT, you know, viewing other people's experiences. I wonder what is your view of how grief can sometimes like take you out of your body? So your sensory experience is a lot more ethereal and less grounded? I'm curious, what do you see as the connection for food to kind of help us be grounded in that remembrance and bring us back into our bodies? If you see that at all?

Young:
Yeah, absolutely. I think, without getting too… drum-circley, with these kind things, I really believe there is a universal energy that connects us all. And grounding into the earth. So just simply, being able to walk barefoot, so it's one of the things that I do on a day-to-day basis, is just walk barefoot on on real ground, not on concrete. Every single day, some way or another, I'm barefoot too, and I remember that as a kid too. I never wanted to wear shoes. I was always barefoot. And you know, my brothers would make fun of me, calling me a hobbit because I could walk across all sorts of things with no shoes on.  And well, my daughter is now very similar in some of those ways, likes to be barefoot. There is a connection to the grounding that comes from being connected to the earth in that way. I think food allows that, and carries that along with what we're doing.

So when we connect back, and adding like real food, there's so much of that earth that is carried along with it. And food health is really soil health. And so, you know as I'm learning more, you know I’m working now with the Artisan Grain Collaborative doing some grain research with the University of Madison, their agricultural community up there, Michael Fields Institute up here in East Troy, the connection to the soil and understanding where that health is, the incredible diversity and microbiome that we have inside the soil is one of those things that carries and connects. So when we're having food that is grown in that way, we're transferring that and giving an opportunity to reconnect that. So there's a heavy level of grounding from just that energetic side of things for me. And then when we look at it, our sense of smell, which is 90% of our ability to taste things, and our sense of smell, when we look from a physiological standpoint for humans, is the greatest connector in terms of our sense for memory. Sense of smell provides a better memory sensation and better memory recall than any other sense that we have. And so as we're eating food, those memories coming flooding back. And that's one of those things for me, that's just this constant, like, Oh, my goodness, I remember this, but you get these flashes of certain things where you get a smell from a certain type of food, I'm like, Oh, my God, I remember that, or this happened that happened, you know, even some of our first experiences, you know, making salmon for you guys, when you came over, you know, eating french fries together, like that kind of stuff. You know, those memories are always seated there.

And I think that that ability, it's interesting,  Thich Nhat Hanh, had a description that I read recently about what it means to be present. And his definition was beautiful, it was, you know, when your mind and your body are in the same place, you're present. At first, I took it in a very literal sense. But then I realized now more, there's still a lot of that. So being present with the food allows you to bring some of that past history, and some of good memories, bad memories, you know, happy, sad all those things together, you can still be present in that moment, while still reliving some of those memories that come in. And we are our history, we are our ancestors, we are all these things from time. It allows some of that connection to come back, so many of those.

Rebecca:
As you know, young our podcast highlights stories of food and grease. And we were wondering if you would be willing to tell us a story that demonstrates what your grief craves?

Young:
Ooh, I would say that, it would be hard to describe my grandmother as a, as a tender person. I think she grew up in a very hard time. I mean, she lost her husband, when she very sort of young, my dad was young, they struggled a lot. But there was always the comfort in that food. You could always feel the love, compassion, care, all of those things wrapped up into food. We do, in Korea, these remembrance ceremonies called Jesa. Now that happens at harvest, happens when, you know on anniversary, major anniversaries when they pass away, on Lunar New Year, around these sort of things, where we take their pictures, we put them out and we gather a very large spread of dishes. There's very specific dishes and colors of these dishes that are supposed to be aligned with the East,  and these dishes aligned with the West, we pour wine, we go through this process of essentially offering remembrance to our ancestors, and thanks, and having communication— and that's one of those areas where, for me, it’s such an important piece, and my daughter is now involved in those pieces as well, as we're going to the ceremonies and doing it. There's a lot of bowing, and there's the sort of traditional rituals that we do. And it's so interesting watching her now as she's getting older and understanding, you know, before you just, you kind of do it because we're doing it, and now she's asking questions about it. And what are we doing here. So bi bim bap is something that really originated from that process, because there's so many different types of dishes. At the end of these ceremonies, you break everything down, and you put all these dishes out and they get a big bowl together, they put rice, put a little bit of everything in, and you mix it with some Gochujang and whatever everybody does, and they're all family style. Sesame oil is another one of those things that goes into your, and then you're just basically putting all these things together and eating this. It's almost like a garbage sink salad, kind of I guess, that's it easy connection for for some of the other listeners. But there's something about eating that dish in particular, for me, that helps me to reconnect and understand where we are. Again, when we look at connection, so at the end of that ceremony, there is a very specific ritual where we take small pieces of everything that's on the table and you put it into one of the water bowls with some rice, and you take it out into nature and essentially you're sharing it with nature. So it goes to feed the animals that are out there and all these kinds of things. That's one of my daughter's favorite things to do is, she loves to do that because for her, she's a huge animal lover and she feeds the squirrels and raccoons and this, and in Chicago she feeds the rats, you know, and whatever else! But yeah, so that’s a food that certainly connects, for me, in terms of comfort. Kimchi is another one of those things that every fall, we would have 55 gallon clay pots that we would bury in the backyard and make kimchi, we didn't slate it out, and we would eat out of that all all winter, how they did it in the back home country. And so kimchi as a as a Korean national dish, but in particular, remembering being around with my grandmother and my mom, making hundreds of pounds of kimchi for the winter, is something that and again, a different variety of stuff. One of my favorite things in the wintertime for comfort is kimchi-bokkeum bap. And essentially this, you have almost an anchovy…anchovy broth based rice porridge, that then you add kimchi into. And all you’re, it's super simple. That's all it is, you know those three things, and you stew it down, and it's just a super comforting, warming… it's just an energizing sort of dish, so, every once in a while, so if I'm, if it's a cold day, and I'm tired, and I'm this, and I’m you know, whatever else, not having a great day, those are one of the things, that's one of the dishes.

Roshni:
Okay, we're coming over, you better have all these dishes you just recited, on the table. We’re very hungry people and we love to eat. I was so fascinated, you talked about so many foods, you know, that are traditionally fermented in Korean culture. And to me, it almost reminds me, even these microbes, and even kimchi, that are passed down from one generation to another sometimes, many times they're like very old, that you get like a little slice of. And that idea of like, you're inheriting a part of your ancestors almost? You know, like those, I'm sure there's a name for the specific one like lacto-kimchi, or whatever that is, that you know, like how that is a part of your ecology, and part of that resilient story that's come from generation to generation. So I love that connection that, you know, it's not just your family, who's your kin, but like the way you're talking. It's, you know, these like little creatures that you can't even see. And now of course, there's all this research about microbes and microbiome health being the marker of health and wellness. And I almost feel like if you talk about it in a drum circley kind of way, those are sort of your inheritance, your cultural guides, shepherding you from one generation to another. I'm curious, like, how does your daughter kind of think of that connection? She's eating all these foods? Obviously, her reality today in Lake Geneva is, I'm sure completely different than growing up in Korea. So I'm curious, does she say anything about her connection to where she comes from? Or are there things you remind her of, I'm just so fascinated how you're actively trying to keep that connection going, but also what you're seeing just from her own life.

Young:
Funny enough, I don't have a whole lot of direct conversation with her about that kind of thing. I find that even with her, a very similar approach that I have here in my businesses, is, I put stuff on a table and we eat and she watches me cook. And we do these things, and the stuff that she likes she asks questions about. And so as we see things and we're growing, are we like this. So we like that my wife is from Northern Ireland, so not a heavy cooking background. And so sort of the merging of those types of things. And Grace is Grace, and so she's growing up in America. And so she wants chicken nuggets, and she wants these kinds of things as well. But she is she's just now, I think at seven, starting to take much more of an interest in some of the other foods. So, my parents still live in Chicago in the same house that we grew up in. And so it's the same garden that we tended, it's the same garden that my grandmother started, it's the same soil that she's been working on, and the additions of all those things. And so when we eat at my parents house, and my brother and his family, they all live together now. There's just a different feel to that. And I think that she sees that, she tastes some of that difference. The rice tastes different, Grandma’s style. There's just certain things I think that transfer through and I think she'll, she'll ask more questions. I think she's naturally inquisitive. And as she gets older, we've been very, very conscious about introducing the language of “not yet”. So she'll say, I don't like spicy food yet. I don't like this yet. And she goes, you know, like that notion of okay, that it's going to take time and you're gonna find these things. You may like these things. And so sort of her, and with her, is really, it's really more about making sure that those experiences are all available to her and that she's choosing all those things and moving in a direction that makes sense to her, and at a pace that makes sense for her. She'll try things and she will spit it out, and do these things. One of the things that we're working heavily on right now is making sure that when she tries things that she doesn't say, yuck. And trying to help her to understand that a) not everybody has food, and how lucky we are to have what we have. And that things that you might say yuck to, are something that might be really, really important for someone else, and how how that relates to their life. And so we just simply say, no thanks, and we don't like this yet, then we don't like this right now. And in the future, you may learn to like those things.

Young:
I’m seeing a thread between how you approach your restaurant, and the mission around it, and the way that you're raising Gracie, like, you don't tell people, "You can go out and change the world, it's all up to you”, you really put it in perspective of community, and being respectful and thoughtful, and in communion with others. And I wonder if you have one piece of advice that you could give to listeners about how we can make a change in the world related to our food habits, or anything that we're feeling the urge to change and put our hearts into.

Young:
Education is always sort of a foundation piece. Find functional curiosity. I think a lot of people have curiosity and like, ooh, that's interesting, that’s interesting, this is interesting. And sort of the casual curiosity doesn't really do a whole lot. To me, having functional curiosity where it actually, you're taking action, because you find something interesting. And I don't think there's any one thing that does it, everybody connects differently. And I think it starts with, as it always does, it starts internally, right, if we're more honest about what we're really interested in, and what we really find connected, we have an opportunity today to be much more honest with ourselves and with the outside world than we ever have. And if we do that, and really ask ourselves the internal question of Who do I want to be? What do I want to do? Why am I feeling this way? What are the foods that I'm interested in? And why am I interested in food? As you start thinking about food in a different way beyond just something to satiate hunger, and to start to really think about how it feeds the soul as well. And maybe that's the primary function of the food, so that that the soul can help feed the body? I think if there's that one thing, it's be functionally curious.

Roshni:
I want to pivot a little bit to something you said early on, at least, you know, not to generalize, but at least in your family, you said there's been so much struggle, right, like all these historical forces, but also personal tragedies, how they inform how your family relates to each other, how you talk to each other, when things are hard. What do you say? What do you not say, even the language around it. And especially I think even the words can have so much connotation on the philosophy of struggle and grief and loss, and you know, English compared to other languages, I feel like a lot of times, there's this quality of violence within English that's so dominant or things are happening to you. Whereas I find that, you know, at least in Indian languages that I speak, there's an element of you're going through this experience, there's this idea of journeying through the state, which is impermanent. So I'm wondering if you can talk about in your family, what is the definition? Or how do you see grief and struggle? Because even that's so different for all of us. And each generation reacts and acts differently to those events. And I'm curious, what was your parents’ generation like, and how you and your brothers talk about it, or around it? And especially, you know, when you're all together, I'm sure, you know, that brings up a lot. So I'm very interested in what that culture around it is and how you navigate that?

Young:
Wow.

Roshni::
Okay, that's the last hard question I'm gonna ask you, and then we will just, trade a lot of jokes, okay?

Young:
I love taking a deep dive into these sort of things, and I think it's one of the things that I was excited about coming on with the two of you today and have these discussions. Because I don't think in general, we have these discussions because in a lot of senses, they're taboo. I think, even from my family, we were not a feelings family. I could probably count on, on my one hand, the number of times my dad told me that he loved me up until, I don't know 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And it wasn't until that point in time where I think that he got through some of his own trauma and some of his own things that he worked on, and letting go of some of the cultural norms that he had, to then be able to start verbally expressing those kinds of things, because you didn’t. You never told people how much you love them, you showed them how much you love them.

And so it's an interesting thing, as we look at, and in particular on the grief side of things, I do think that somewhat, there's a showiness to it in our culture, where people have the big wailing and the screaming, and oh, my God, you know, when there's grief and somebody passes away. And some of that is an over exaggeration to show how much you're actually feeling when it's not really that. And so for us, you know, and all of us by all three of the boys, we have very different ways of communicating and showing grief and showing how we deal with difficult emotional times. Some of it is through humor, some of it is through really crass humor, which is, I think, really fun, and a great way to sort of lighten those things up. But we certainly all share it in very different ways, so much that I think now, for us, has gone beyond. Early on, when we were going out or much more bury it under the rug and shove your feelings down.

My dad was very, very hard disciplinarian growing up. And now I'm watching him say to one of my brothers, why are you pushing them to do this so hard? Why are you doing this? What the hell is that?! Like where the hell was that when we were growing up? I think he said one time, “let the kids be kids”. Jesus…what? And so it's just great. It's funny watching that. But it's also really, incredibly heartwarming to see that he's growing still, that he's still changing those things, that he's still finding in his interaction with his grandchildren, more of the compassion that he wanted, as a child that he didn't get. And so even his inability to do that with us, because he was still trapped by his experiences, and maybe the cultural norms that he had. Now, those things, those shackles, in a sense, are coming off, and he gets to experience and show emotion in a way that he didn't get to show. It's still throws me when my dad says “I love you” want he hangs up the phone. “Okay…”  It's nice to see that in that short span of seeing two generations change in that way, and being able to take the best and continue to grow as a family, as that group. And moving that forward is really, really cool. Thanks for that question, haven’t thought about that.

Roshni:
Yeah, it's so beautiful, I can absolutely see what you're saying. Even my parents, with my nephews, are so playful and funny and gentle in ways they couldn't have almost been with us. And it is true, it's maybe, I think, also related to their own childhood. And in a way they can have their inner child come out. And there's that softness, and a sense of healing, hopefully. And that's really beautiful. And I think that's what we all wish for our parents too, especially when they have moved to different countries, or just like you're saying, they work so, so hard. And that's something I think about all the time is for so many of our parents, struggle is the language of love, and how much we can appreciate that. But it's also weaponized, so often. You’ve probably heard that, “Well, I work so hard for you, I sacrificed.” And we can laugh about it now. But I'm doing this podcast because my parents sacrificed their lives so that I could be like, let's talk about grief and food. And for them, that would have been unimaginable. You could do a podcast on these themes, and that's your life?  And I feel so grateful, yet also a sense of guilt sometimes when I hold all of that pieces, and it's wonderful to hear how we're sort of re-parenting each other in our adulthood. Do you feel that?

Young:
Oh, absolutely. You articulated so well, capturing that process of how that moves. And I hear sometimes people talk about role reversal. Oh, well, they took care of us when we were younger, and now we're taking care of them. And that journey and that honesty, and it's an interesting thing to see this sort of strength and vulnerability of my parents now where before that hard okay, well I'm gonna do this, do this, do this. Listen, there wasn't any complaining about oh my god, I worked so hard. It was it was more a tool up listen, you, I’ve been doing three jobs, moonlighting every night, because you know, we're trying to give you a better life. But now there is this acceptance, freedom, whatever it is—permission to be more vulnerable and to explore those things and to heal those, those wounds as a child and to be able to do those things. And that's that's a really cool thing to see. And it's a cool thing to see them growing, continuing to push themselves to grow, and giving them the freedom to grow.

I got my first AARP mail in the mail yesterday, a few days ago, you know, we've made a pretty big joke about it. And I wonder too, how much the specter of time, as we're watching that hour glass tick away and those sand, those sand grains drop, there's an acceleration I think, in terms of understanding— you don't have another 50 years to screw around with this and figure out what hurt you, and how to get past that, and who do you want to be, and what do you want to do with the rest of the time that you have. But then also balancing that without this constant, like, Oh, my God, my time is shrinking, and this. And so, when I see them playing with grandkids, or nephews and nieces and things like that, it's so just wonderful and joyful to see them having fun. And just being light and being children with the children. Yeah, that's a really, a really cool thing to think about and see.

Rebecca:
As you're around the age where your dad had a heart attack, how are you reflecting on your life and your body, in relation to what you've seen him go through?

Young:
Well, I'm smoking and drinking more these days, so…

Roshni:
Steak every night.

Young:
I feel it. So, I've always been very active. Being physical, and being an athlete has always been part of my life, it's been part of my identity for so long. And now, I think the biggest change has been realization of how much more maintenance it takes now. Ten years ago, it was fine, get up and do whatever. And I work a lot, so I'm generally on seven days a week, I'm doing working 14, 15, 16, 17 hour days, and it's physical work. And for the most part, it feels okay until you get home and you wake up. And I, my wife said to me last year, sometimes she's like “Jeez, you're walking worse than some of my 80 year old patients.” (She’s a Clinical Massage Therapist.) And I'm now at that place where I’m like, listen, I've got to do better. I'm still physically fit, I'm still okay, but things that I used to look at and be like, ah I'm really excited about— So my brothers and I go back country hiking in the Sierra’s every year— it’s and a lot. In the mountains. Hump everything and hump everything out. And usually it's one of those times where like, man, I can't wait to go, it's great. And this year, man I'm hurting. And I'm not sure I’m ready to carry that bag.

And then knowing also that this is around that same age when my father had a heart attack, and am I doing things, am I take care of myself? I have a young kid, when my dad had a heart attack, we were in our thirties I think? Twenties, thirties, somewhere in that range. My daughter is seven. If I don't keep up with my health, I'm not going to be around. Or, I'm not going to be able to do the things that I want to do. She's, she's already outpacing me in terms of energy and that kind of thing, and I want to do that. So that certainly is influencing and impacting how I’m living and how I’m thinking about being as I age. But some of this is also about time, I'm also, I think, in that window in my life where I've got another 10-15 years where I really want to be maximizing all of the opportunities and all of the energy that I spent building this to where I am now. And now being able to take care of you know, take advantage of those things. And now's that window. And so how do I balance that time with a young child and my own age, getting to workout, and doing all the other stuff? It's a lot to think about. And I wish I could say that I'm doing a better job of it, but I just, I’m not. People are like, ah, you’re in good shape, you look fine. And I always say it's like used cars, the car looks great at the lot. It looks shiny and the wheels are all… but man, there’s a lot of mileage, there’s a lot of mileage on my body. And that's something that I have to take into consideration.

That’s another one of those food things, too. I'm not. I'm certainly not an idealist, where everything's horrible. And I don't do, I'm on the road a lot. I travel a lot. And so if it's a long day, and I don't have another option, I might stop at Wendy's and have like a value meal or whatever is. And then you feel like hell for the next few days. But those things have to lessen. I've got to do less of that. No, I don't do it a whole lot. At this point in my life, now I'm feeling those things, feeling a lot more. And then I think diving back into processed food, chemicals, and all the other things that are present in the world today. Even if you're trying to do well and trying to eat well, it's really hard to stay away from those kinds of things. It's so prevalent everywhere. I think in our country, where we don't have real truth in labeling, or we don't have, we don't have an FDA that again, I might get censored here, but we don't have an FDA that really protects us. The amount of chemicals and things that are allowed into the United States that are absolutely banned everywhere else in the world is astonishing. And it's not because our science is better. It's because our lobbyists are better. That's why we have some of the things.


Rebecca:
Well, I encourage you not to be too hard on yourself because the fact that you're a firefighter is a really good sign about your health.

Young:
Oh, it’s not, it’s terrible! Firefighters have heart attacks more than anybody else! It takes a lot of work. And that's another thing too, as I'm growing and changing, I've always been very hard on myself, and there is no room for okay, I'm tired and this and that, I learned a lot of that from my dad, where it was like, you just do what you have to do, you don't get to attach emotion to it, you just do it. And I'm trying to figure that part of it out, because I, Becca, you know, I’m a little over the edge.

Rebecca:
You're a very hard worker, and just hearing your restaurant and bakery schedule, makes me feel tired. You're working long, hard hours. And I wish you lots of ease in the years ahead.

Roshni:
Well, I just had a last question. You talked a lot about permission earlier. So I'm wondering if you were to give permission to yourself now, today, for anything? Or even for our listeners? What can we give permission? How can we give permission to ourselves? Are there like two things you would say? This is where I say, “Go forth, and be”. We'd love to finish the conversation with two ways in which you would encourage us to offer us that permission and ease.

Young:
The first permission that I'm working on right now is, that permission to reevaluate and to change my mind. I think for so long, so many of the things that I do, one of my dad’s, my dad's favorite lines— now that he ends his phone calls with “I love you”, they used to be ended with “be the best, be the best”. And so, I like golfing. I am a cyclist, I’m a this, I’m a that.  And I can’t enjoy just going out and playing golf. I have to be a single digit scratch golfer, I can't just go out and ride a bike and be comfortable, I need to be able to go out and do X number of miles at this pace. And so I think the permission of redefining what's important to me, and taking that inventory (and an honest inventory). Do I really need to be a scratch golfer? Do I really need to do it at this level? Do I really need to do at this level, can I find enjoyment by simply doing things for the simple act of doing that? Can I just go for a bike ride at two miles an hour and relax and be out in nature? And, I think giving myself permission to change my mind about those things is that first thing in terms of the permission and the second piece for me and this is for me on a personal level, is that permission to have feelings. To be okay with “I'm tired today” or “I don't feel well today” or “I'm not in a great space”, and to honor that, to really allow myself to feel those things but then also to put it down. I heard a great thing the other day that was “Don’t quit, rest.” And I think for me there that permission to rest, and that being okay with resting, that is not a bad thing.

Roshni:
Well that was such a beautiful interview thank you so much. I hope we didn't ask too many hard questions. You can come back for the dirty jokes, Episode Two.

Rebecca:
it's been such a pleasure having you, Young.


Young:
Thank you, I really enjoyed it. Best of luck to you. I think things that you two have been working on are really amazing and really speaks towards, again, this how do we find the healing, how do we find and give ourselves permission to heal, to feel the things that we need to, to go through the things that we need to. Yeah, best of luck to everything that you two are doing. This is fantastic. Thank you for inviting me.

Rebecca:
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Roshni:
You can also find us @wearemarigolde on substack and Instagram, and we would love to hear from our listeners, you! Drop us an email, direct message us. Share your food story, ask us questions. Do you want advice? Do you want recipe ideas? Or even let us know, what is your grief craving?