077: Simple strategies for navigating the stickiest situations as a manager with Robyn Rapp Leadership Coach & Facilitator

 It's kind of doing everyone a disservice, right? You're not giving your team members exposure to new types of projects, initiatives. You're not reserving your own superpowers for like more impactful work. So everybody kind of loses when there is this hesitation or avoidance of delegation altogether.

Welcome to the managing made simple podcast. Where I bring a decade of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech to help you navigate the ins and outs of being a people manager. From conflicts to feedback to delegating and more, we will leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it, and everything in between.

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Download your copy today at liagarvin.com/scorecard. Welcome back to the show today. I am so excited to have Robin rap with me. Robin is a leadership development coach and facilitator, and she brings over 15 years of operating excellence at Google and an early stage days of Slack. Um, she enables talent to find renewed connection and commitment to their work, empowers individuals to stretch themselves into leadership roles.

And supports working parents who hope to simultaneously prioritize their family and invest in meaningful work. I know that's the case for me for sure. And Robin and I met in our first session of our coaching certification programs a few, many years ago actually by now and became instant friends. And Robin really blazed the trail for me really on leaving the corporate world and becoming a coach and starting a really thriving business.

And we've kept in touch and have a, a community of other awesome coaching women. Jess Heller is included in that. Who's on the show a few weeks ago who talk about, you know, how to bring our best selves to work, share ideas and things like that. So if you're out there running your own business or you just got started, find that community.

I mean, first, I think I got to plug the amazingness. of having other people going through the same experience and, and really, thank you, Robin, for bringing me into that circle. Oh, you've brought so much to it. I feel like I should get an award for bringing you into the fold. So I'm super happy to have you there, obviously.

Awesome. Well, welcome to the show. I mean, beyond having, you know, so much in common work wise, we both have had so similar experiences, both in corporate world, both worked at Google, both worked in big tech and are really working to translate some of those experiences to helping leaders build a better team, show up better as managers, working with founders and folks in smaller businesses on really translating those things as well.

And so I was just so excited to have you on the show to talk about all of these different related things. And I think just diving right in, you know, having been a manager yourself in the corporate world and now on the other side, the coaching managers. See, I'm like, Ooh, you know, I'm not alone in some of the struggles I had.

Yeah. What is something that you share with your clients that you really wish that you heard earlier or knew earlier when you were managing people? Yeah, the list is endless in terms of what I wish I knew as a new manager. But one of the biggest ones that comes to mind that I try to impart on all of my clients, especially those who are newer managers, is that you really have to get comfortable with having hard conversations, be it around performance or potentially how your team members are showing up.

So, you know, is it uncomfortable to tell someone that you think they get defensive when they're receiving feedback? A hundred percent. Yes. It's, it's awful, but is it important that you take, you know, the time to really develop that incredibly important skill of receiving feedback with your reports?

Absolutely. So, you know, you and your team members will be better for it, even if in the moment it's absolutely terrifying and awkward for all parties involved. So one of those things that I remind my clients about is that you have to remember that your employer isn't paying you to be friends with your reports or to be well liked.

It's really excellent when that happens, right? And it's a beautiful thing. But when those two desires seem to be at odds with one another, you know, Wanting to be a great friend and wanting to be a great manager. It's important to remember which one we have a responsibility to deliver on and which one we're getting paid to do.

Wow. I never heard it that way. And I think that's the thing like we all have to take with us is yeah. It sort of creates this duality in your mind that you're being pulled in two directions when. Really, you're only accountable to one of those. And I love this point so much because I think we can feel like we have to uphold these two things in equal balance.

And, and I think, you know, especially I think for, you know, small business owners that are really, really, you know, wrestling maybe with being a manager for the first time, or you've hired folks and you realize, Oh, wait a second. I'm a manager. Like I think. One thing I love to remind small business owners listening is when you hire people and you're paying them, you are managing them.

So you're a manager, you're officially like, you know, in that club and there just becomes a different lens on how you have to show up. So even if that person was your friend before, which is a topic I know is everyone's favorite, you know, managing a. former friend managing, you know, I think small business and a lot of times you're hiring maybe a family member that creates some awkwardness, but in the corporate world, I think a lot of us, we become friends, close friends, even with our, with our peers on our team.

And all of a sudden, you know, someone gets promoted and now you're, you know, you get promoted, you're the manager. Yeah. And the dynamic changes. I know you and I have been in this situation multiple times, uh, and, and sometimes it goes really well. Sometimes

it doesn't. So, you know, I love for you to share some you know, the dynamic changes and, you know, what are some of the pitfalls you think folks run into and, and how are some of the ways you've handled that to, to really make it work effectively? Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, it is, it is uncomfortable and it sounds like we've, we have a shared experience.

So, you know, I think it was almost 10 years ago at this point, but I do remember very clearly when my skip level pulled me into this kind of ad hoc meeting and shared with me that my manager was leaving our product area. And I was voluntold that I would be leading this team. It wasn't like up for debate.

It was just like, this thing's happening effective immediately. And we're going to start sharing the news, like basically tomorrow. And so all of a sudden I am responsible for managing this team of people that I feel like could have equally been promoted to the same place. Like I didn't necessarily feel like it was mine to take.

And so reflecting on it, I entered that role with a ton of self doubt, a lot of questioning, a lot of like what the fuck is happening and not a whole lot of confidence. And so in reflecting on that experience, there's like a whole lot of things I would have done differently. And so I'll walk you through my, my many pitfalls and learnings with, you know, that have come through actually coaching people through this and just time.

That's the beauty of time is a lot of this stuff is way more clear. So first and foremost, I touched on this briefly, but I think it's worth repeating. I really needed to embrace and accept my role as a leader. Because no one was going to really take me seriously as their manager or respect me as such until I fully accepted that truth myself.

So one way to really accept that new role and to accept this new reality is to answer a prompt around like, I was chosen for this role because. Dot, dot, dot, and kind of write down as many things that are true to you, right? And so it really allows you to own your role and connect to why you specifically are sitting in that position so that others can respect that as well.

Yeah. I love that. And before you go, I want more pitfalls. Yeah. Like so many. I think that's. That's a really valuable tool to use for, for overcoming imposter feelings, right? Like saying, yeah, you mentioned other, you felt like other folks would be deserving of it as well. I think sometimes we feel that like you sort of guilt a little bit that we made, it made me chose over other folks.

And so I love that exercise to, like you said, own it and say, Hey, you know, maybe other people. Also deserve this. And, and also I did, I've done really acknowledge and celebrate that. So you don't come into the situation like, I don't know, it could have been any of us because that like loses your own credibility right out of the gate.

Totally. Yeah. And I, I love what you just said and drew the connection with imposter syndrome, because one of the things to overcoming imposter syndrome is yes. Writing down what's. True about why you were chosen and then also naming the, maybe the gaps in your experience and how you're just going to like tackle those.

Right. So if you've never managed people, maybe you do go take a random class on Udemy or like whatever those things are, instead of just having this big label that you apply to yourself as like not ready or not worthy. Right. Cause that's not useful. So thank you for introducing that cause I think you're spot on and I think it's a really valuable exercise.

The second pitfall that certainly actually this is, this was not a pitfall. This is the one thing in my list that actually feels like something I did right. And so this is acknowledging that it's hard from going from peers to being their manager. So you really like hug the elephant in the room. And so in all of my one on ones that happened right after.

The announcement was made. Um, I gave space to my now reports to air whatever concerns they have, whatever feelings they're having and just acknowledging like, hey, nobody really asked for this. This is just kind of how it shook out. Um, you know, what are you concerned about in working together? And what are you excited about?

I do remember. you know, kind of celebrating, we have this great working relationship. I'm super familiar with the work that you're doing. How can we take these years of trust and report we've built and actually use this to our advantage now that I am your manager? So I do think that's one thing I did well, but the list is long.

So I love that. Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of times clients, the small business base come to me that, and they've hired. You know, maybe a stepdaughter or a sister in law or something like that, where there's also a little bit, maybe there's some relationship building stuff that's going on, even on the personal side.

And now there's a working relationship there. And, and I think what I, what I often suggest them is exactly the same thing as you did is, is name it. Talk about like, Hey, you know, this is going to look a little bit different than I sat, you know, Thanksgiving dinners or like Sunday afternoons with the kids and really, yeah, you said hug the elephant, talk about it.

And then really, you know, as I say in coaching designed alliance, like design the way you're going to interact. Like, how do we want to have hard conversations? How do we want to, you know, talk about things like money? Get it out there on the, um, in the front end. And then the other piece, I think people can get nervous around with, with managing a former friend or, you know, family member or something like that is, is they, they're worried about being a man, micromanager.

They're worrying about telling someone what to do. I have that in quotes and it's like, well, it's kind of the job of the manager, but, but also by getting really clear on expectations and talking about how your work styles and saying, Hey, these are some things that. Um, you know, when it comes to the business, these are some things that are really non negotiable.

Like if you have some specifics that really differ from that person's communication style, maybe you, you know, starting really early or responding to clients within a certain timeframe or things that. Could start to feel a little bit micromanaging. If you were reminding people on the backend, setting those terms up front and saying, Hey, you know, here's something that I found really effective and is something that I really expect employees to do.

Are we good with that? Any questions? What are some concerns you have? So you, you put it out there, you allow for feedback. But you do start to establish that there are some non negotiables that maybe don't show up in the personal relationship, but are really, really important there. And I just, I think anybody that's struggling with, with feeling like, well, I don't know if I can reset this.

I I'm off to a bad start. There was, it is never too late to go, Hey, you know, let's make sure things are easier to get, to get things done. Let's have a talk about it. You can do that right now. Pause the episode and go talk about it because it is never too late to do it. Yes, I love that. And I think you're absolutely right.

I think it's always great when you do it on the front end. And that's, it's so funny. Cause that was another big kind of takeaway or learning that I had, which is as you called it. And it's what we call it in the coaching world, designing the alliance. Um, because our dynamic was shifting, right? We were no longer just peers.

And so it was such an opportunity to reset on how we work together. Be super explicit and clear on this is how I work best. This is how I give feedback. This is what you can expect from me. When I give feedback, how does that sound with you? What's the best way that you communicate? Like, do you prefer that I Slack you something piecemeal or do you want like a super formal email?

It's a really great way to kick off this new World where you're their manager. And I think the world would be a more harmonious place if we took the time and made the intention of designing how we work with kind of every stakeholder in our lives, whether it's personal or professional, like God, like so many friendships and, you know, uh, family members and, and so many relationships would really benefit from taking the time to be like, this is how I am with other people.

This is how I, how my best version shows up. What about you? Right? So I, I love that you said that. And it was certainly something I didn't do as a new manager. And I wish I had been way more intentional about having that conversation, but to your point, there's always time for it. Even if you, even if it's midstream, even if you've been working together for a year or two, like still have that conversation, it's better than not having it at all.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when you, when you mentioned having it with anybody in your life, I think there's a lot of times we'll have those friends or people who, or whoever, where maybe they do something like they're, they call you and they only talk about themselves and they have to go, you know what I mean?

Or whatever. And it's like, and then we sort of like write that person off as, you know, I don't want that person in my life or any of this. And we never even took the opportunity. And so I think, you know, what, and when, with maybe personal relationships. You know, we make decisions with work, we start to say like, it's affecting the business or I don't want that person around.

Or like, we kind of like make these judgments or assumptions. And actually by having these conversations, we can actually see if it's salvageable before we decide a person's not a good fit. And I think one thing that's really important and that comes through in this kind of designing alliance in this conversation already is reflecting on yourself on like, how do I need to show up and not just deciding, you know, it's, it's weird.

This didn't work out. I know when. I managed a former friend. I made the decision quickly. This was a disaster. I will never do this again. And it's like, but I didn't follow these things. I said, Hey, like, why don't you respect me? What's going on? You know? And, and, and she was like, well, you never cared how my work was when we were peers.

I was like, well, obviously it wasn't my problem then. Right. But I never, we never did it. And then it became something that in that situation specifically was really stressful for both of us. And the next time when I was managing. You know, someone that I used to be peers with, I approached it totally differently because again, a lot of times in the corporate world, it's not your choice.

And so that creates, as you call it, that creates a little bit of a, a challenge too, that maybe you wouldn't have wanted to be enter that dynamic. Yeah, you have to. Yeah, that's that's absolutely true. Yeah, I love the let's not write a narrative that is untrue or unfair because we haven't made the time to have a conversation like this.

So yeah, it's a great point because then we jump to conclusions that are maybe unjust or just uninformed. So yeah, great point. And so that really dovetails with something that I think a lot of managers struggle with, with which is delegating, you know, and, and when we don't delegate, we make assumptions of I have to do everything.

Why don't people read my mind and why, you know, why? You know, why are things so much harder than they need to be? And I think when you sort of peel back the onion or curtain, whatever, like you kind of see that, Ooh, there is a real gap on, on delegating and doing that effectively. And so I think I'd love to ask you from, from what you've seen experience, what do you think makes delegating so hard in the first place?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of contributing factors and some people are hung up on others more than for, for different reasons. So I think there's one, and I think this goes back to like the people pleasers, right? So I do feel like there is this notion of guilt or, Oh, I'm doing my team a disservice because they're already stretched thin, they have no bandwidth and I'm offloading this thing.

There's this feeling like you're like chucking something over the fence and then like running away and expecting them to deal with that. Which in actuality is not typically how it happens anyway, or it's certainly not how it should happen. And then I think the other big contributing factor to not delegating is my like hyper achievers and hyper controllers, right?

These are the people that are like, I have done this thing for years. I'm super good at it. I know how to deliver an excellent product or an excellent. Outcome in a certain timeline, and I don't feel like these people are equipped to do that. And so those are just two reasons why, you know, that I commonly hear, and sometimes they accompany one another.

So it really is a huge blocker and people moving forward with delegation. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of doing everyone a disservice, right? You're not giving your team members. exposure to new types of projects, initiatives. You're not reserving your own superpowers for like more impactful work. So everybody kind of loses when there is this hesitation or avoidance of delegation altogether.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, in the small business space, I think in, well, I'll say in corporate world, I think sometimes we don't have as much of a. You know, time is money. If a big company were really disconnected from that, right? Even as managers, but as a small business owner, it really is. And so if you are spending your time, you know, really in the weeds, reviewing like social media hashtags or templates that have been already set up or really far in the weeds, you know, every minute you are spending on that.

Is minute that's is money that's being taken away from the business. Right. And I, with my ops playbook program, I worked with a small business owner in the PR space. And, you know, she was spending a lot of time really deep in the weeds, not delegating things, and when we pulled out like five or six things, she could hand off to team members.

Now she had five hours a week that she could be putting towards high paying clients. And so she could recoup. That five hours, that was sort of just, you know, going towards things that were actually slowing the team down could now be used on billable work at like a thousand dollars an hour. So right there, that was 5, 000 a week.

We could recoup by figuring out how to really delegate. And so let's talk about, well, well, how do you reframe these two challenges and, and help people feel more comfortable delegating? Yeah, I will. I love the reframe and just focusing on like. The opportunity costs, like if you're working on this random in the weed stuff, what are you not doing?

What's being neglected as a result? Right. So yeah, that's a big one. I love the kind of dollars assigned to it, but yes, a big reframe that I use with clients is really to think of what will delegation for you up to do. If you're saying no to this thing that's recurring, what can you say yes to and what's the most impactful work that you can do if you have more time?

So I think gaining clarity on which skills and capabilities you possess that you really want to bring to the forefront that you really want to exploit in this role and then determine which projects or tasks or bodies of work will really like most benefit from those strengths of yours is a really like wonderful way of thinking of.

Like the bigger version of you at work, right? Like bringing all that goodness to more impactful work and also being able to delegate to some really capable people that maybe you've hired specifically. Right. So like, let your hires reaffirm your hiring choice by giving them this work. So I think that's one big kind of reframe that's.

been helpful. I think another big one is we've all been on the side of like a micromanager, right? It's like a horrible feeling. It feels like you're being parented. It feels like they don't trust you. They don't trust your ability to deliver. And so the other side of the coin is. What if you delegate to your team?

What does that signal? It's, it's a huge signal of trust, right? And engenders this belief that my manager believes I can do something. I don't even know if I believe it, but because she's giving me that nod, I'm going to take the sleep of faith. I have her support if I need it, but I am going to take this on.

So it's like this really wonderful gift that you can give your team of exposure of. cultivating a new capability or skill. And I do think that like, if you've never delegated previously, or if you have, maybe you've inherited a team, right. And you can't like co sign on like all these team, all these team members are super solid.

Right. And like, sometimes that happens and that's okay. But I would just say, okay, take baby steps. Like don't give your highest Stakes project to the person that started last week. Like that's a horrible decision, right? But find the few people that you have seen deliver that you have like the highest level of trust in and give them projects that are maybe not the highest stakes.

And then create like midpoint check ins and ways for you to course correct and intervene midstream if like, if that's necessary. So it's, it's not going from like zero to a hundred. It's not saying like, just start, you know, passing out projects and not paying attention or caring who you give it to. But if you hire great people and you entrust projects that align with their skills and strengths, like that feels like everybody wins.

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that the lens on both of those examples is really positive, right? It's like, how can I best be utilized and what are the things that I would love to be working on or what are the things that are going to forward the business, right? In the first example. And then in the second, how can I empower my team?

So it's not like, Thank you. Uh, like I got it, not micromanager kind of like the whole lens of it is through positive and an opportunity, which I think framing it both for yourself can alleviate some stress. And then for the team members, it's really exciting. And like you say, huge trust builder and, and also like you call out, it doesn't have to be everything overnight.

And I think when you do the exercise of the first example of you really identify, you know, what would I like to be working on? What are some things that I can delegate? Sometimes it does surface some gaps in competencies on the team on roles that actually need to be filled, but we are so much better equipped to be able to delineate that work when we've.

Or like to assign that work when we've delineated it. So a lot of times we don't delegate cause we haven't even thought about all the stuff that's going on. You know, it's just sort of like abstract in our mind, too much work, or I have to get through this list. And I think managers both in the corporate world where you're kind of getting requests from both, you know, your team members, your stakeholders, your management chain, small business owners, when you feel like you have the weight of the whole company on your shoulders, it can feel like I have so much, I can't even stop.

I can't even, I can't take a minute to do this. And when you really stop and slow down and look at what's my workload, what are the things that I only, I can do, what are things I wish I was doing? What are things I can delegate that mapping is going to give you a really important picture of, you know, where your team is at, who you need, what kind of development opportunity you want to create.

And just knowing it actually starts to relieve you at a ton of stress. Like that's so true. It's a huge one. Yeah. Just knowing that composition of strengths and how collectively, how can we as a team. Tackle this. And to your point, like, where are the gaps? And if so, is that like a new, is that new headcount or is that just like a, a skill building workshop that we put on, but yeah, I love that.

I think taking the time to really take an audit and inventory, like what you have available to you is so freeing and comforting. And I think the last point on this front of delegation, and I think you'll love this Leah, cause I know you love expectation setting as much as I do, but I think it's. If you are handing something off that you've historically always owned, right?

Again, going back to this concept of naming it, tell your report, Hey, I've always done this thing. It's going to be harder for me to step away because I've just done it for so long. So bear with me as I try to hand this off to you. Because you've never done it, I will be checking in more than normal, but please know that over time, once you have done this a few times and you really feel super confident, I will step away fully.

But even just setting that expectation of like, I'm not here because I don't trust you, but because I'm learning how to delegate this thing, I almost think puts the, it doesn't make your report feel like you don't trust them. It's more about you and what you're wrestling with to let go of. If that nuance is clear, but I think that can actually be helpful.

So they're not like, why is, why is Robin calling me a third time today? This feels like over overkill. And I could be like, yeah, remember I told you I was going to be a lot during these first couple of attempts at doing this new initiative. Yeah. I love that so much. And that also opens the door for feedback to be a two way street, right?

You're saying, Hey, this is something that I'm wrestling with. You can also put out there, Hey, you know, I'm going to try to check in twice. It's okay to call me on it. If I'm a little too much hands on, like I want to be letting go, I'm working on this. So I love that for establishing psychological safety and that vulnerability that you're saying, Hey, this thing is going to be hard for me.

So awesome to say that up front, I think in the same vein of saying, Hey, I haven't managed a former colleague, a friend before, like I'm working on it too, but that doesn't come into conflict with sort of taking away your own credibility. And so I think one thing that. I don't want to contribute to our, is our previous point of really owning that dynamic.

I think you can say, you know, this is new to me without kind of undermining yourself and saying like, so we're going to just bring it out again. Like, I'm no good at this, you know? Cause I think sometimes when we try to build connection, we sort of use self deprecating kind of language. It's like, doesn't instill confidence in our team.

They're like, why did they get that role of being the manager? I'm worried now my career is in jeopardy. And so bringing in that, you know, this is why I'm here point to that could also be really useful. Yes, I a thousand percent agree. I think that's a great call out and a good flag of like, you have to strike the right tension here of being transparent, but also not on undermining your credibility as their new manager.

Yeah. I love that. Thank you. So kind of, of course. So closing, we talked about new, new dynamic. Now I want to talk about performance because I think we've both observed this in larger companies and I see it as well in smaller companies is this fixation with promotion or title around. And I'll be honest, I mean, as manager of the corporate world, When you have a team member coming to you every single week, one on one meeting is like asking about that promotion.

You start to want to cancel that weekly meeting. Like it starts to make you, especially if you cannot make one feel they're not ready for the promotion and they're not getting the message. That's, that's a feedback issue. We can talk about stuff, but, or if it's like, Hey, you don't want everything to be about promotion.

There's other things there or. You know, you feel like there's this over fixation on, on promotion as the only path to success. I want to talk about that a little bit because again, transparently, I think for us managers, it can be very frustrating, like to kind of have to have the same conversation again and again.

And instead of avoiding it and canceling it, okay, we're going to say like, that's the do not do. Let's talk about what to do instead, how to address that. Yeah. I just was reminded of our conversation just now about like dollars and time. And like how we're spending our time. It's like, I do not want to spend my hour.

We're both getting paid well to talk about promotion again. Yes. It's like fatiguing and not a great use of time for that, for that recurring and kind of same conversation over and over. So yes, I, I definitely have. experience as well. Um, and it's something that I see with my clients that get hung up on that quite a bit as well.

It's just like, I'm gunning for this next promotion. So there's a couple of things that I would advise to managers to help navigate that moving forward. So again, I'm going back to my favorite, which is again, setting expectations, right? So first of all, like at Google in particular, especially in like the BD org and, and partnerships org.

It felt like to become a manager, somebody needed to like have a, you know, leave the company altogether or go to go to a different place for that to even open up. So it's like how frequently or infrequently can they really expect a promotion I think is one important piece. I think the second, and I think this is.

You know, one on one, but it's worth repeating is to just share expectations around, like, here's what the next level looks like. And here's where I see you currently and just helping them understand more concretely, what's going to bridge that gap. How are they going to get from here to here and what are the things you need to see from them?

So I feel like. Probably all managers are doing that, but I do think it's important for people to just understand, like, what, what does a promotion look like? What will I need to be doing and exhibiting for someone to feel like I'm ready? I think the second point here, which is way more important is to help each individual.

Articulate what is important about a promotion to them. So like what's underneath that promotion that they are really clamoring for? Is it simply about being validated or recognized for others? You know, promotion means their first opportunity to manage people. Maybe it's larger scope. Maybe they're going to start managing like their biggest customer.

Maybe they'll get more money or a title change. Like, so all of these things can underpin the desire for a promotion. And if you don't ask, you have no idea. What this person is really like seeking when they say they want a promotion. And so the wonderful thing is that many times what people are actually seeking is available to them, even in the absence of a formal promotion.

So I think it's our job as managers to enable your team to articulate what's going to motivate them to do good work, make them feel valued. And, you know, maybe it's like. They really want to have a particular experience. They've never run a design sprint, or they really want to like align with a product, a leader, a product leader that they admire.

So there's like so many levers that we have at our disposal and so many ways that we can help create connection for our employees. We have to help them open their aperture with which they're seeing their world, right? Because when you just look at the singular outcome, it becomes very like binary and very disappointing when that one outcome doesn't.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, plus one to everything you said. And I think for all of us right now, big companies are small, money's tight, budgets are constrained. So even if there was more promotions or more bonuses or raises in the past, right now I think a lot of folks, managers, rightfully so, and business owners are worried to make commitments and worried to, you know, say like, I can assure that this is going to happen in this timeframe.

And so the last point of really understanding what are those intrinsic motivators that you can satisfy for that person is going to help. You know, for lack of a better expression, kind of buy you time until you can figure out some of the financial side if that's not available. And so one thing that I think is so important is to understand that to sort of name, like, I know in a promotion is important to you and we're working on that and in parallel X, Y, Z.

Right. So that you don't, I think what you're not saying, and I've had managers say to me, he's like, why do you care about a promotion? Like, get it. And I'm like, look at you. You're like, Oh, so ahead. You got all what you wanted. And I'm here. Like. Why do I care? And so that's not what we mean. We mean saying like, Hey, I'm invested in you.

If promotion is still on path and you've set these expectations and, or not available right now, here's how we're going to keep working you towards that and getting, making sure you're feeling motivated. So, you know, another do not, it's not to devalue that the person cares about that. And. I saw that happen a lot in big companies or folks coming, you know, when I was coaching a lot in, in, in tech, a lot of people would say like, you know, women would say my man manager, who's like many levels above me said like, why do I care about being paid more because there's a pay gap and I'm already being paid way less.

I feel undervalued. No, we're not saying any of that. We're saying kind of having a dual strategy basically. Yeah. And I do think it's really important to also note, and people might not believe this, but it is a true kind of. human adaptation. But when you get a promotion, this whole like thing called hedonic adaptation occurs, right?

So like you could be working so hard. You could not be having any fun all for the sake of getting a promotion. And you've, maybe you've experienced this yourself, Leah, but like, I definitely know that if I've been gunning for a promotion or something big and the thing happens and I'm like, I feel like I could walk on water for like 10 minutes.

And then all of a sudden I'm like, How can I get promoted to the next level? It is so fleeting. So I also think it's important to remind people like, dude, this is not going to make every day valuable for you. This is not going to get you out of bed in the morning. It's not going to lead to any fun. So like, let's find a sustainable way for you to find joy and connection to the work that you're doing because of promotion.

Even if it happened all the time, you would only feel joy for like. 10 minutes, you get a dopamine hit and then it'd be like back to obsessing about the next promotion. So I think actually reminding people that that's actually the human experience is, is important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And you know, if it is about erase, I love that as the end of that sentence, we're lot of things added out right here, but no, no need to build.

Okay. All right. Well, this has been incredible. I'd love before we wrap up, you know, share, you know, what's something you're working on that you're excited about and how folks can get in touch with you. Yeah, for sure. So I'm really just loving my kind of bread and butter, which is my one on one leadership and development coaching.

Currently I'm coaching a lot of founders. Who are stepping into their first C suite role. So it's been really fun to coach people through these kind of common themes that I'm seeing amongst them, which is like figuring out how to accept their new title and the authority that comes with, you know, a chief in their title.

And they're wondering like, how should I be spending my time now? You know, how can I be bringing my greatest strengths? To bear and not get stuck in the weeds. And how can I make better, more agile decisions? So that's just been a really fun kind of cohort, if you will, of people that I've been coaching.

And then another big one that I have always loved coaching on is working with new parents who are trying to reconcile old identities where career and work were like absolutely their number one with their new identity, where being a parent. And a spouse is kind of their highest priority. And so these are people who still very much care about the work they're doing.

They want to invest in it in a meaningful way, but they need to honor this new set of priorities. So I'm also working on a workshop around this theme, because it just seems to be something a lot of people are really wrestling with. And then. I would say just like kind of woven throughout all of my client work is this exercise around identifying and articulating who people are at their best.

You know, how they feel, what kind of work they produce, how they show up in relation with others. And then once they've identified the best version of themselves, we kind of like reverse engineer it or work backwards and figure out like, What routines, what empowering perspectives, what mantras, like people and your environments are really helping bring that best version of yourself out more predictably and like consistently.

So that's been like a really fun thing that I consistently work on. And where can folks find you? At RobinRap. com. Okay. And I will include the link to that in the show notes. So anything you want to leave our listeners with before we wrap. Yes. So I would say the first step in being a good manager is owning that title, owning where you're at, and just embracing that truth.

Ground yourself in why you are the person to be holding that role, and then get really clear on what impact you can drive if you are delegating effectively. And then just please remember that feedback is a gift. For any of you that are like hesitating on having difficult conversations, difficult conversations are a gift.

If you're uncomfortable, try to relish in that moment and just know that growth is happening in real time. So yeah, next time you're dreading an uncomfortable, but necessary conversation with one of your reports or like sweating through your shirt as you deliver constructive criticism about how something is going, please embrace it and know that you and your team will be better off for it.

Thank you so much. Great. Thank you, Leah. That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive. I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at liagarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.