018: How to elevate your team through asking thoughtful questions with Albert Shum, former CVP of Design at Microsoft

Trust is two ways, right?

It's not a one way thing, and you have to build that trust with your team that you will back them up. I think that's the part that sometimes gets lost. That like empowerment's, not like, Hey Lia, go do this and good luck. 

Yeah, exactly. 

It's, it's really backing it up. Having that sponsorship is so important as a leader sponsoring, it's not telling, but really this idea that trust is something that you help cultivate. 
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Welcome back to the show. Today I have with me Albert Shum, a former corporate vice president or CVP of design at Microsoft, and now out on his own exploring what's next for him.

Albert was a consumer product designer at Nike for over 11 years. Then spent 15 years leading design and humanizing technology at Microsoft, and has recently begun a new chapter focusing on responsible design and design education. Now, Albert and I met. Seven, eight years ago when I was at Microsoft on, on one of his teams, and he was different than any other senior executive I had ever met.

First, he sat with his team, okay, in the same space, side by side with his team members, you know, demonstrating that he rolls up his sleeves and gets into the work so that, you know, he can really be supportive and and accessible to his team. But more than that, He uses questions in his approach to communication, demonstrating curiosity and interest in your thinking, in how you approach a problem and what you have to say.

So I'm so grateful that we've kept in touch all of these years, and so excited to have you on the show today. . Great. Thank you, Lia. I'm excited to participate and it's been really exciting in terms of my journey and yeah, lots to chat about, so, yeah. Awesome. Well, you know, I think now that you're in this new phase, I'd love to know what's something that you learned later in your career, or you're even learning now about your leadership journey that maybe you wish you had learned earlier on.

Yeah, I, I like to think as you kind of progress in your career, your experience, right? You just kind of built. And it's kind of funny, like now that I've retired, I get a lot of questions about like, oh, how did you do this? Or How did you get into that role? How did you get in position? And a lot of it, it's, you know, you can't replicate.

But I do think there are certain themes, at least I try to not just focus on, but really I think, I think it's, it's really my process. And, and one is this, this idea of curiosity. I think that's how I got into design. I was just curious, like when I was gonna, school design wasn't really a thing like U. Kind of wasn't like, oh, what's user experience, right?

Or right like, like a lot of kind of designing digital interface was just emerging. So there wasn't really a even a formal education in that. But there's curiosity to think about, Hey, how do you interact with things like a phone or a computer even like, I think we kind of take for granted that's kind of how technology's part our lives now.

But back then,  again, remember like as like a, a Walkman was technology . So that's the shift in my career. And then just the curiosity I think about what's next, and really a curiosity around the customer being user-centered, I think that really kind of drove my career. Yeah. And how did that help shape your leadership style and the way that you managed people?

Yeah, , I'm glad you remember. I kind of tend to ask questions rather than give answers. I think a lot of it is, I think this words gets used a lot, but I think being your. Is so important and just, and I know that there's a lot of conversations around like creating a place where you belong, but I think a lot of us kind of, you know, the idea of covering like, Hey, or even imposter syndrome, I gotta act a certain way.

And that's, to me it's like, it's one of the hardest part of working on a large corporation where you're kind of trying to fit in. And I think asking questions for me was, This kind of removing that sense of fear of like, hey, I don't know, to like trying to actually learn. And back to that curiosity. I think having that learning mindset, having that growth mindset, I think that helped me progress.

So to me, questions wasn't just like, Hey, what are you doing? It's more about like, I just wanna learn and, and I think ties to that curiosity I spoke to, and if you asked the right question in the right way, again, being. To try to understand, but also I think this is the part that you have to build on around, you can't just keep on asking questions.

Right, because you'll drive the team nuts. You also have to kind of ask questions in a way to get different perspective from the team. Yeah. So that it's not about just constantly run to people like, Hey, why's this project doing here? Why is that? Right? Yeah. To like, what do you think? How we might do something differently?

Yeah. So asking questions in a certain way to kind of solicit your team to bring the. Of the team together. I think that's slightly different than just asking questions. Yeah. Oh no, absolutely. And I think that's what stood out so much for me was in doing that you helped, first you demonstrated that you trusted people.

And this is something I talk so much about in the manager development work that I do is, you know, showing someone that you trust them and are invested in them. Now you're gonna. See such better work and such higher engagement and motivation. And when you, by asking questions, you're saying, Hey, I actually want to hear how you would solve this problem and what you think here.

And I know for me at that point in my career, it was really important to me. I was doing design operations instead of, you know, the core design work.  that my perspective was valued and, and needed even though it was a different type of work because it still mattered. And I think making space for the different perspectives by asking different people how they'd solve a problem, how they'd work through a challenge, what, you know, what, what they would do in the situation that lets them step more up and into being a leader.

It, it helps 'em take ownership of their work and their role and it really changes the game. Totally. And you kind of hit it on a nail though, around. Like as all leaders and as you're kind of developing a career, like it's easier to say, I'm gonna empower you, but I think the sense of trust. Trust is two ways, right?

It's not a one way thing, and you have to build that trust with your team that you will back them up. I think that's the part that sometimes gets lost. That like empowerment's, not like, Hey Lia, go do this and good luck. 

Yeah, exactly. 

It's, it's really backing it up. Having that sponsorship is so important as a leader sponsoring, it's not telling, but really this idea that trust is something that you help cultivate. Yeah.

With the team. And again, it's a two way Yeah. Part. And I do also want to. Mentioned you were one of the first ux, let's say ops. In some ways I think you'd helped establish that discipline even at Microsoft. Cuz Cuz I think so often we get to focus on the what? Yeah. Like let's go make things right. You're constant because we're all busy on a team.

But I think a really good key part of the UX ops bro, is actually trying to frame up why are we doing this? Yeah. And then how we're doing this. Not just because it's always like, Hey, we've got more we crest than we can. Deliver. Yeah. But helping the team understand what's important. Why are we doing this, and then finding out the steps in some ways, I think that's really the way to implement design thinking.

I think sometimes we get lost in the process versus the operation to operational line. Yeah. Oper make things happen. I think that's so important. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I mean, I think that was. This celebration of talking about the, how that, you know, creating space for that when we were working together, that really influenced me bringing this into conversations and, and really what I do today is helping teams, companies, startups, whoever understand the importance of the, how to realize the what, so that they can achieve the vision so that they can, you know, hit on all the goals and priorities.

Because, as you say, without focusing on the how, there's a lot of confusion. , you know, there's duplication of efforts. Decisions aren't clear, there's not always accountability. Yes. Thank you for championing the how. I'm curious, you know, in your time at Microsoft especially, it was a time of massive reinvention and transformation and I know that was probably both exciting for design and for managers, but also probably a little bit.

Intimidating. And what were some of the challenges and opportunities you saw during all of this change in the company? Yeah, and I do wanna recognize that I like my career. I, I stood on shoulders of giants as all of us. Yeah. I think when we enter kind of any new team and in that moment, there were amazing people already in design, like.

Steve Kenco and and Don Corner, who kind of brought me to Microsoft. And I started Microsoft literally as an ic. I didn't have a team. I'd never worked in a tech company before, and the thing that I did know working at Nike was really grounded on consumers, customers. I think that's so core. I think when I went to school, I think just understand that user standard design process, it's universal, right?

It's not something that like, oh, Is kind of like the flavor of the day, I think of like making sure the customers are center for everything we do that grounds us. And I kind of use that as a framework for me to help navigate whatever like technology is evolving. Cuz you know, as you see literally right now, like there's always gonna be a new new thing.

There's gonna be a new tech, but what grounds us is always the human, this user human-centered design. And I think that's the framework that I try to. To the table. It's not design a table, it's us. Yeah. Helping to bring the human to the table. It's so important. So that was my framework to kind of anchor what my role was.

I used design as a means to create that human centeredness for the company, for the work that we do, for the products that we make. Uh, and, and I feel like that at least helped anchor me.  through my journey in in a large tech company and yeah. Yeah. And there's so much to kind of unpack there, but like I make it sound so simple, , but happy to talk more about all the different aspects.

And I do think big tech, at that time, I think design was really just evolving. Yeah. From the idea of like, Hey, we have this product, we have the technology. How do we not, we need to go ship it. We need design to go work on it. Yeah. And I think it's really shifted because of this idea of how do we keep the customer being user-centered and that design is at the front end now of creation.

And I think that's so important. Yeah, absolutely. And and I think to add to that, one thing that you did a lot of that I think really effective leaders in this, Space do is created a real equal partnership between engineering and product and design and marketing and sort of all of these stakeholders in, in cross-functional roles.

Because if it's, I think sometimes in these situations it can be in us versus them. You know, one design wants one thing and product wants another. An engineering.  and it can be really hard to know how to operate. But I think both in bringing the, the human-centered piece and then being a real relationship builder and helping, you know, others understand the importance of forging those relationships, that also helped really drive, you know, ensuring design was in that conversation.

Yeah, and looking back, I think it's seems a bit obvious. Like, oh, of course we should be multidisciplinary and collaborative at the same time. I think when I would kind of reflect. My journey design wasn't necessarily in the forefront of like, design was really around the aesthetics and hey, how do we make things look good so that we.

To be, uh, appealing to the customer, which I, I think it's, it's still important. Like I, I think how we, what, what is the emotional connection, but I think trying to understand what the customer needs are, translating that into solutions, I think working with all the dis different disciplines and to bring together it.

Yeah. And being back to human center design, cus being really customer focused, really obsessing over the customer. I think that's what I always kind of trained, was like, Hey, let's go create a table so that everyone can come together. Rather than like, Hey, we need design to be at the table. Yeah. Like I think creating a table is so important for people.

All the different disciplines come together to, to actually see that, oh yeah, we have to think about the customer. We have to think about the technology. We have to think about the business. And all those stakeholders needs are contributions are really important to create a successful product, our service.

So yeah, so I think, I think that's really evolved in the last 10 years and in terms of how we create. Yeah, absolutely. And you're aligning people around this shared goal, right? This table you're talking about. That's the shared goal. That's what we want to create for our customers and. Everyone's already bought into that.

It's maybe there's some differences on how to approach it and, and what's in scope and outta scope for different increments. But, but you have that alignment at its core. Yeah. That alignment. And also there, there's a natural tension and I'll be, I'll be frank, like business goes and customer needs sometimes aligned, sometimes they're online.

Yeah. Right. And it's important to kind of have discussions around that table, but it's also. . The thing I really learned from Joe B and other great leaders at Microsoft is being very principal. Mm-hmm. , like writing down our principles. Like it's not, in my opinion. Yeah. Because they, it's great. You have a great opinion, but being principal about how we approach our design work and then talk about those principles, debate around principles and, and being this principle based leadership is also, I.

at scale so that it's, it doesn't change based on like, Hey, today I feel like we should do this or do that. I think that's important to kind of remind ourselves that principles are important in how we create. Absolutely. And I feel like that's especially important now where we have to weigh trade offs and you know, maybe we have to cut down on priorities, or priorities or shifting, or you have fewer resources.

When you can go back to those principles now you know how you're making the decisions and everyone's clear that Yeah. Even if they don't agree, even if they wish it was something else, this is the criteria we're using to inform decisions around what to be working on. Yeah. And sometimes principles, I make principles sounds very abstract, but you take a, like a principle that design like, Hey, we want a live.

Was just a simple principle, like, we really wanna invest in motion. Like, and you gotta think back like 10, 15 years motion wasn't even, what were you talking about? Everything was kind of static, right? Like you, you click on something and something might pop up randomly, , like, you know, there is no transition and to invest.

And to me it seems so important that it's not just this, it's like in a movie, right? It's like, it's not about the shot always. It's about the transition between the shots and, and how do you craft that and invest in motion.  in a way that feels fluid, keeps you in the flow, keeps you in the context. And we kind of expect that today.

Yeah. Right In in our ex, all our experiences. And so this idea of like, Hey, we wanna be alive in motion or design and work with engineering and say, Hey, we, let's agree that these are design principles.  and that when we work on the product, it is really important to say like, Hey, this is why we have motion and we don't cut that, right?

It is part of our, and we all agree this is important. This is our principle, and let's invest in the engineering systems that allows us to achieve that so that we can implement the design rather than sitting around a table and saying like, well, I, I want this now.  then engineering's like, what? Like why is that important?

And by then it's too late. And I, I think that's back to being upfront and having those principles to guide your work so that when you do make those hard trade offs, when you're crunch your time and resources, you keep reflecting on those principles to guide you on what is the right thing to do. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think managers right now who are feeling like they don't exactly know what to say to their teams, there's so much uncertainty, there's so much change. I think this is a great moment to stop and think, well, what are the principles that we have on our team that are, you know, shape how we work, how we determine trade offs, how we know what's.

A higher priority if something else comes up because this is gonna give you a language to be able to communicate with your team and something that's going to help make communicating changes a lot easier. I think it's really hard to communicate change when it feels like outta left field. Then it's harder to get people on board.

Maybe people decide this, this team's not for them, and all these sort of long tail effects can happen when you don't have that clarity on the principle level. You know, it takes shape as team values or the team mission or the core principles we operate against that. This is a moment even, you know, while it may feel weird cuz there's so much change, but to go take stock of what do we know right now?

Why are we working on this kind of things? What is sort of a situation that would shift our direction and, and what's something that we would do in that case? Yeah, that I, a hundred percent. I think that's so important and I think as leaders as I think this idea, this change is constant and I feel kind of, this is probably like the third era of computing, you know, however you want.

Web one, web two, no, there's all these different frameworks, but I think, I think technology and I reflect on the difference between working at. , Nike and working at Microsoft and technology, the pace of change is so rapid. Yeah. And, and you just reflect on like a year ago an NFT was, was worth millions. And it's like, wow.

Like the, like these amazing artists are generally these, these amazing work. And, and here's the value to now like anyone. Can create amazing work and, and generate art in a way that it's unprecedented. Yeah. So the, so the value just changed so rapidly in our society and in the technology that, that we created.

And we're just still catching up in what the user experience is, uh, and the, and the product work and that all these kind of changes have this kind of whiplash effect on the team. Because what happens then is like, like, Hey, priorities will change. Our business will change. We're focusing on this now to like, oh no, we.

because the world is changing. Yeah. And we need to help the team change to, to this new direction, and that can have this whiplash effect. It's like, Hey, I thought we were all committed to this direction, and I would. We're changing and helping the team adapt, have that resiliency to, I don't wanna say the word embrace change, but at least we acknowledge the change, that it's not random.

And I think that's the hardest part for, for a lot of lead. Cuz if you can't explain that or you can't walk through with the team on the why, Behind the changes and maintaining the values and the mission, but also being principal based on the why we're changing. I think that's obviously, it's, you kind of see it on all the feedback we're getting, like it's a horrible experience.

Yeah. For, for team members when they don't understand what's happening. . Yeah. And if you were in a situation where you have to communicate a big change and you're thinking about how you would approach it hypothetically or if  many times and you had to do that in your career, like yeah. What are some of the things tactically that you, you like to think about is included in that message?

Yeah. Well when I'm, this is strange. When I joined Microsoft in 2007, 2008 was this kinda like upheaval and, and I was on a team and I just saw Microsoft and there was big changes we orgs and the vision I was working.  didn't exist anymore. And, and, and I just said fortunately, amazing leaders and managers that had that ability to kind of work with the team to understand their changes.

Mm-hmm. , I think the first, and, and I haven't written about this, but it's, you know, it's not like, oh, four steps to managing change. But I, I think there, there are frameworks to help you understand or work with the team and, and you've probably seen the same framework. You're like, you know, that trough of like the disillusionment to Oh yeah.

you know, generating belief and almost like we recruiting the team. Yeah. So every time, and I've had to do this with multiple teams where sometimes changes mean like, oh, we're going to reorg, this team's gonna join this team. And Yeah. And I remember probably my first experience was working on mobile. Hey, I had this opportunity like, Hey, why don't just take on the leadership to kind of reboot our mobile design?

Cuz iPhone, it came out. We need something more competitive, kind of rebuilding the team. Here's an opportunity, . So I, I, I literally had to walk into a room that like, Hey, I'm the new leader now, and kind of help the team understand why I was here. And what my, what my goals were. And again, build that trust.

And I think the first thing I always do is always take that time to, instead of telling the team, like, oh, here's what we're doing, here's where I like really set the context that we're on a journey and I'm here to help you. Yeah. And more of that servant leadership that, Hey, we have this opp really show the the team that we have this opportunity.

And you have to really highlight what that opportunity is. You can't just. Oh, I'm here because I got assigned to this job.  like, okay, great. But really talk about the opportunity we have. And again, that's something that you wanna be aspirational but not too far out. Right? Yeah. Like, and kind of energize the team that we have this amazing opportunity.

And then the next phase is listen. Mm-hmm. , like, I remember this, I set up one-on-ones with literally everyone on the team, cuz they were, they were, we're working on mobile products already. Yeah. So I'm actually the newest person to the. . So really trying to listen and understand both the hopes but also the fears.

Yeah. Cause. Creates a lot of anxiety. Hey, what's gonna happen to my job? I have a different role. What's my scope like? So really trying to listen what the concerns are cuz you can't just say like, Hey, we're gonna go here cuz the team is expecting like, oh, who's gonna be the next manager? Or What's my role?

What's my assignment? So that anxiety, you need to kind of make sure that you're listening and not just creating this more ambiguity. And as you know, more ambiguity creates more anxiety, right? So that phase is like soliciting response, getting, making it more particip. Yeah. So that you're listening to feedback before you make changes or make plans.

Right. Again, taking more, almost like a user centered designer approach. Yeah. To understand, to create empathy, to understand what the aspirations of the existing team listen, and then you play back what you've heard. So it's not coming from like, this is what I want, this is what we want. Yeah. So the, the third phase now is to play back to reflect on what the team aspires to and what we aspire.

and play that out and say like, wow, we have this immense opportunity, and the team is looking to create a culture that's inclusive of everyone. And, and that way we can all create that because it comes from the team. It's not from you now. Yeah. So now you're really just almost like, like a facilitator. For change.

Yeah. With the team rather than you are the change . Right? Yeah. And it's such a different, you know, it's like you say, it's something that we all should be doing, kind of know, but we don't do. I think when you come in, you're sort of expected as a new leader to have this vision and I'm gonna do this 30, 60, 90 day plan and change and Right.

You have the answer. Yeah. Here's the answer. Like, this is what we're gonna do. Right. It's It's very tempting. Yeah. And it's also, I think that's what we're conditioned to do. Yeah. To jump in.  start driving action, right? Yeah. Again, like back to you just saying, making that space to build trust. Yeah. Because when you solicit the team's feedback, then they have more buy-in that it's you're really trying to get their ideas and back to that empowerment's building trust.

Yeah, exactly. And that's the conversation that you want to have with the team. Not necessarily like, Hey, do you like my ideas? Right. So, right. And I mean, as the person that managed the timelines, I will say, , this makes things go faster. I think a lot of times leaders are, That taking the approach you just outlined slows things down, but what actually slows things down is people being totally not bought in on the change and Oh, yeah.

Privately disagreeing or sort of working against it or leaving the team that slows things down. Yeah. It's that 2080 that we always talk about, right. Yeah. But I, I think having that space is also, I think you bring up really good point now that you reflect with the team. Like, this is where we're going.

It's okay. And I tell this to the team, you can opt out. Yeah. And it's actually good. Like, if you don't believe in, this is where we're going. Hey, I'll work with you. Like, I'll help you find a different position or opportunity. Do not be the person that like just leans back and wait for something to happen.

Yeah. And then don't buy. . That's why you wanna do one-on-ones and listen and, and see who making sure that hey, everyone had a chance to, to contribute to where we're going. And the reason I use one-on-one is it's, it doesn't put people on the spot. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you as a leader are taking the action and, and creating that energy.

Yeah. Rather than trying to push people. So, and I think that, that having that reflection and not that, back to the last part of being, back to that we recruit.  understand like, Hey, this is where we're going now. You're recruiting your team. People are on board. They all believe this is our mission now. This is where we're going, and if you wanna opt out, that's okay to you, and then move forward.

So that next phase, right, once you re recruit is now your genuine belief. Yeah. And that is the hardest part, , because if you don't do that, like no matter what you do, say what you like, no one's gonna believe you. No. Cause you don't have a foundation of trust. Yeah. And And empowerment. Yeah. Absolutely. And I wanna echo the point of meeting with people one-on-one.

I mean, again, it's something that may take a little time up front, but it saves so much time because, Now people have a relationship with you. You've humanized yourself as a leader. You say, Hey, I care about what you have to say. I want to hear it. And then you can integrate specific feedback that people had back into the plan.

Back into the conversation. You, you know, you can address people, you know people's names. Like it just has so much power for getting that buy-in that belief, because you've shown your invest. Time in, in hearing from people. Yeah. And, and to scale that. I know some of the people in the audience like, oh wow, that's gonna take so much time.

I think additionally, like you do write the planning doc or write your vis your memo, like, you know, I call my design agenda and write that and, and get people to contribute. Make it open source. Make it like, hey, Being in the open so that like you're having this conversation, but you're also writing it down back to you.

I think you know the amazing part about the Xop process, I remember like, Hey, did anyone write this down? I remember having meetings like, did we, like, did we make any decisions? Yeah. Like how about we just write it down first? . Yeah. Like I, I think that's also important, having an artifact. So we literally actually making a little.

When? When you're coming together, so that like, Hey, this is what we created together. Yeah. Like that's the person we create. Yeah.  a share agenda and codified that. Right. And that's how you join Billy. Because we wrote down, we talked about, yeah. You had a chance to contribute. We wrote down, we published it and it's real.

Yeah. It's not what I think, it's what we. Yeah. Together. Right. And that's such a great tool to get people caught up as new people join, as you're onboarding, as there's questions, you, you have sort of a single source of truth to point people to so that Yeah. And they understand that, you know, what is the vibe on the team is that it's collaborative, it's iterative, and, and this is how we operate.

Yeah. And I think that's why always enjoyed making these booklets was. It's tan, you can feel it, right? Yeah. And it's an energy and, and also it's creativity. I like it's a way to express ourselves, right? Yeah. And as designed as, as ux, as as designers, researchers, product makers, UX ops, I think that was the first thing you build together.

Yeah. Well, it's not gonna say the product we, we, again, we'll jump into making products Yeah. But actually coming together and. , our share purpose, our design agenda or our studio playbook. Right. Like making something that reflects us. I feel like that's so important. Yeah, absolutely. Well, now that you're new, that's adding change, right?

I know. Managing that. Yeah. Like some teams don't make it through that trust. No, exactly.  and I looked at that. It's the Huber Ross. Change curve. So I'll put that in the show notes as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there is a name for it. That's right. So now that you're on the outside, you know, I would say semi-retire, not fully.

Okay. , because you're in a lot of, doing a lot of stuff right now. What are a couple things that you're excited to share with our audience that you're working on now? Yeah, I should write about this. So I do have a process. So it's not just like, Hey, I'm gonna retire and I'm just gonna ride my bike all day, which I'm going on a bike trip.

That's why I have a bike case here in two weeks. But I think it's important to kind of take time off and kind of re-energize. So I, I think, I think it's a, I feel it's a privilege and a luxury that I have, so I'm very grateful. Yeah. But my process is kind of three phase, like this idea of reflect.  in that first phase is so important.

Having time to reflect. Yeah. And just like, that's why I love these conversations. Looking back to look forward, right? Yeah. Like that's what grounds us. That's what fuses us. Like creativity is not this. Like, Hey, I just wake up and it's making those connections that you, you haven't been able to before. So just reflecting on my experience and why did I do that?

Yeah. Or how did I do that? I think that's really important. So that's what I've been doing. First phase is just reflecting and then the next part it's kind of reconnecting. I think relationships is so important. I think the pandemic really reminded me what I really missed, which is remember like literally the reason I like sitting in the studio next to everyone else is I just love that energy of.

Just lean over, Hey Lia, what do you think? Yeah. Like that to me was an amazing part of being in design school, making products and, and I've talked about it like being in a studio. It's not about the open space, it's about the people. Yeah. And that you just have this energy, a creative energy. And I'm also guilty of being the biggest distraction

So, but I think that's the, the creative part, right. The creation part and reconnecting for me.  be able to talk to people I haven't had a chance to, to before. And I think being on the outside, I could talk to people if I'm pretty much anywhere now, it's, I don't have this Microsoft hat on top of me. Yeah.

Like, Hey, why are you talking to me? Are you trying to recruit me? No. Like, like, I just want to reconnect. Yeah. And so reconnection making that, that human connection with, with, with people that, that all these amazing people I know like yourself, I. So important. And the third part is rethinking, and that's where my involvement around design education.

I think we've, like when I, back to you, when I started in design, there wasn't really such a thing as ux. And I think the only course I had was with Bill Ri and Terry Winnow grad and, and Stanford had this kind of emerging kind of interaction design program, or not a program, just a class.  one course, right.

To so much as change and in this new era of we're design, even when I just started, we were still in this kind of, uh, I guess like a lot of people talk about waterfall and Agile as more the engineering process, but really to me was this idea that it was this kind of classical design where as we're deterministic mm-hmm.

we would come off like, Hey, observe the needs. Like, oh, you know, use center design, design thinking, whatever you.  and we would come up a solution and then we would like look at different options, and then we would choose the best one and then let's go build that. Right? Yeah. It was almost like classical.

It's like, to me it's like this idea of deterministic. Like, hey, that is a solution that's gonna work for everyone. . Yeah. . And then we'll ship it, right? Yeah. And versus now like shipping something that's just the start. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the idea of like, Hey, we're gonna experiment, we're gonna.  what our customer needs are as they interact with our products and, and don't scale everything at once.

Yeah. It's not like one size fits civilian, right? Yeah. It's like, hey, how do we, how do we look at different cohorts of customers, address their needs, and iterate and adapt? And to me, that process has changed really in the last. Five, 10 years. Yeah. And that's so different than how we're approaching, even like I said, 10, 15 years ago to now, as the tools have has become more expansive and, and it's, it's amazing.

We actually have UX tools like, like Figma versus trying new things in Photoshop, . But to me, we're still drawing.  versus like the ideal estates like making it things like parametric, programmatic. We've always had this idea of like, why does, why do you have the same UX for everyone? Can it adapt back to personalization?

Remember like, yeah, like we've always, like personalization is like creating settings. . Yeah. Which mean I thought personalization, it's adapting to your needs work or at home, like the context is always changing or in my. Yeah, I think we've always had this dream of like the interface kind of adapts to you and that's really the idea of personalization.

And I do think the next era with, especially back to the general design and and love, is these new tools know how do we create more adaptive user experiences. I think that's back to rethinking. Yeah. What is that design process? Yeah. So that's why I'm interested in education. That's why we're working with schools.

I'm coaching a class at Institute of Design in Chicago with Anjo Matthews and, and it's great. I just love working with students because they don't have, I would say, hangups like myself. Yeah. Like. They're just looking at everything from kind of like fresh perspective. Yeah. And it's been great, uh, learning from them as much as I'm trying to, trying to share my knowledge.

Right. Yeah. And you also have a newsletter, and I'll link to that in the show notes as well, right? Yeah. The newsletter is more of a, I don't wanna call it Vanity Project . It's more, I think it's so important to have an outlet of ideas and exchange. You can't just like sit in your room and think, right. It's the, to me, back to the creative process.

It's having outlet where you can learn and interact by talking to different people and getting different perspective. So the newsletter for me was, was to con kind of continue that conversation. It's not me saying like, this is the way. Yeah. It's more about, Hey, here's some thoughts I have. I don't have the answer, but love to.

It's more back to the asking questions, right? Yeah. That. . Yeah. Uh, that curiosity, there is change happening in our world. Yeah. And how do we address them? So, yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been such a fun conversation. I, I'd love to ask, is there anything else you wanna leave our audience with before we wrap?

Yeah. I think there change, there is this, it's just like in the news, like it's in all the craziness with Silicon Valley bang and the constitu around laid offs and big tech. I think sometimes, I think this is a really easy thing to say, but it's really hard to practice. Like for me, I try to not get caught up in the day-to-day cuz it's so easy.

Like, we're kind of programmed to like, hey, kind of look at, you know, it's got, I always compare like, like when I was a kid playing soccer or in sports, you kind of chase the ball versus like centering yourself. Being center, I think in this, in this moment. It's so hard. Yeah. So I, I know you've had a lot of great thoughts on that and, and I think I imagine it through change, but keeping true to who you are, being center, I think taking care of yourself.

I think, I think that's so important. And, and I think that's what drives creativity. That's been my fuel and that's, that's why I go on bike rides, . Yeah. Not have to think about all those externalities, but like really trying to keep that space for yourself. And I, I. That's really important and making time for that and not get caught up in all the things around us.

Yeah. I heard recently, I think it was, um, Sue Bird from the W N B A talking about, you know, in professional sports there's recovery and arrest. It's like in the corporate world, we don't have it in the same way. Yeah, we're always on. It's on. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an on switch. I wonder. Exactly. Yeah. So I, I love that.

It's a wonderful parting thought to leave with and thank you so much. It was so wonderful to see you and talk with you today. So much good stuff in here and I will link to that change curve, but I think you spelled it out so much better . So I really appreciate you talking through that. Yeah. And again, thank you.

I love these conversation and again, this opportunity to be able to reflect, reconnect. Thank, I feel, again, very fortunate and such a big privilege. So I, I want to thank you for taking your time. Yeah, thank you so much. So many awesome takeaways. But if I had to pick just one, it would be the power of asking thoughtful questions, of showing people that they're seen and they matter and asking for their inputs.

And just as important as answering questions. To do that, I'm gonna be launching q and a sessions over Zoom, where you can ask all of your questions that are top of mind so you can best support your team. These events will be exclusive to my text community. So to get on the list, text manager to (415)234-5716.

Again, that's the word manager to (415)234-5716. 

That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple Podcast where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive. I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at liagarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn.

See you next time.