You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Just shush, just stop throwing rocks at these people. They have no choices in their situation either. The King was born into his role, William was born into his. They're trying to do the best they can while Harry throws rocks at the boom every angle, all the time.
Dad, King of England, you had me, You knew exactly what you were doing when you had two sons, and you owe me protection.
My dad should look after me.
Hello and welcome to Momma Mia. Out loud, what women are actually talking about? On Monday, the fifth of May. I'm Holly Wainwright and we are back from the road where we were last week when we went to Perth to our first live show and get ready friends who were coming to the tour because it was a little chaotic, wasn't it exceptionally fun?
Exceptionally fun? There was a costume change backstage. It had us all nearly weighing ourselves and I think I came out with it on back front. I think they'll be a complained, but wear more than they'd bug.
Yes, exactly right, It's true. Yeah, we were, of course in Perth. I'm mere Friedman. By the way, I was in Perth with my co hosts and the out Loud team and it was so awesome to see all the out louders. It was chaos, it was We were a little rusty, but we ironed out a lot of the kinks pretty quickly except for the end.
There are a few tickets left for the shows in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne. Don't at me if they're definitely all gone, but I think there are a few left if you want to come and see the chaos for yourself.
And I'm Jesse Stevens and I'll say as well. Another highlight from Perth was the life size cutouts that were twenty five percent to god, that really tickled.
I think it was life size for you and Holly.
No.
What was weird is that I was abnormally tall compared to Holly, who was about half her actual size, and you could see out louders getting there and being like, they really are shorter than I expected. We are not four.
Feet Shout out to an out louder city who donated her ticket to the show. In Perth to another out louder called Megan after she couldn't go. How great are out louders. There's a lot going on in the group, Tickets being swapped, shared, donated.
Come come see us on today's show, Down to Business. Did something big happen on the weekend? Did it well?
Yes?
But do you mean an historic election result that no one saw coming? Or do you mean Prince Harry's remarkable emotional interview, or do you mean the settling of the fallout of the feud between two of the biggest names in your kitchen? Whichever one of those, We've got you on today's show. But first, a piece of quiet, earth shattering scorelous gossip from mere free.
Brooklyn Beckham the eldest son of David and Victoria Beckham. He's twenty six and he was absent from David Beckham's fiftieth birthday celebrations, which happened over the weekend. They sort of sprawled across different countries. There was various lunches and gatherings, but the main party was in London after some earlier more intimate family events. Why did Brooklyn miss this? Now we know family is very important to the Beckhams, and the main reason seems to be the ongoing family tension
between Brooklyn and his brother Romeo. Romeo's the middle brother. Romeo's dating a girl called Kim Turnbull who previously dated Brooklyn when he was a teenager, and Brooklyn and his wife, Nicola Pelts, prefer to avoid events when Kim is present, so it's been rumored for a while that there is trouble between the siblings. In the past, it's been rumored that there was trouble between Nicola Pelts and Victoria Beckham, but they had a few very public shows of strength and solidarity.
I thought that the issue what I was reading was that it was Rocco, who's Madonna's child.
Rocco Richie. He's a side character. I think he might have also dated Kim Turnbull, who was Apparently it's been reported that Brooklyn and Nicola flew to London to try and arrange a private celebration with David. They said, we're not going to the main party. We don't want to be around Romeo's girlfriend, but we want to see you privately. Apparently the family insisted that they attend the main event or not see them at all, leading to the couple
missing the festivities completely. Now, of course you can look at Instagram for the real story, and it does seem to be there, because Brooklyn and Nicola did not post publicly anything about reaching his dad happy Birthday, and the Beckhams when they posted some of the gorgeous family photos from the night and the festivities, they usually if he's not around, will tag Brooklyn and say missing you, Brooklyn. No mention of Brooklyn.
It's really sad because we're talking in a while about the royal rift between two famous brothers. But who is the real.
Royalty here for gen X?
One would argue maybe Posh and becks R indeed, and they are such wife guys, those guys like Brooklyn Beckham's personality is eighty five percent I love my wife and the other fifteen percent is hot sauce.
So between us two things.
But it is notable that considering how tight those families are like, they are a very tight family. He has not posted about his family since Christmas.
I can't choose who you have children marry, can you, Jesse, No, you can't.
But I did read that in the last eleven family gatherings that they've had Brooklyn and Nicola have not attended. And my question is why are there's so many family gathering eleven love.
They love a party, they love getting together. This fiftieth has had a massive party in London that Tom Cruise was there, all these guys and they're in Paris and they're doing a big thing in Paris.
And this was at number four.
They love a party. When Victoria turned fifty they did a similar thing. They love a party, they love a family shindig.
It's David is very much a birthday girly. He's a birthday month, massive birthday. He loves a birthday.
Happy birthday, David.
And then I also read that Brooklyn did not wish Victoria a fifty first happy birthday, and I was like, come on, fifty one, I'm sure you turn fifty one at one point, I know when it was.
If it doesn't happen on the graund didn't happen.
Over the weekend, Australia's election made history. Anthony Albanesi became the first Prime minister in two decades to secure a second term. The Labor Party saw record lows in polling at the start of the year, with Australians struggling with things like the cost of living crisis, as well as challenges to healthcare and housing. And while many were expecting a labor victory, no one predicted a landslide of this magnitude. Here is what Alberanesi said during his victory speech today.
The Australian people have voted for Australian values, for fairness, aspiration and opportunity for all. But now that the Australian people have made their clear choice, let us all reflect
on what we have in common. Because no matter who you voted for, no matter where you live, no matter how how you worship or who you love, whether you belong to a culture that has known and cared for this great continent for sixty five thousand years, or you have chosen our nation as your home and enriched our society with your contribution, we are all Australians.
Look this brings us to the Coalition And while all the votes have still not been counted, it looks like the Coalition will receive the lowest votes since the Liberal Party was formed in nineteen forty four.
What a great night, not a great navent.
Peter Dutton lost his seat in Dixon, Queensland after holding it for twenty four years. This is what he had to say.
Now, we didn't do well enough during this campaign. That much is obvious tonight and I accept full responsibility for that. Earlier on I called the Prime Minister to congratulate him on his success tonight. It's an historic occasion for the Labor Party and we recognize that. Congratulated the Prime Minister in which Tea, you and Jody and Nathan all the
very best. And I said to the Prime Minister that his mum would be incredibly proud of his achievement tonight, and he should be very proud of what he's achieved.
That's beautiful, consessions, incredibly gracious.
Holly. Do you want to just quickly explain what that means for people who might have missed it in terms of Dutton losing not only the election but losing his seat.
Yeah.
So, very often the leader of a big political party will have a pretty safe seat. But actually Dutton's seat of Dixon in Queensland has never been particularly safe. It's always had quite a type margin. However, I don't think anybody thought he was going to lose it, apart from
apparently Albo. They were saying on insiders on the ABC yesterday, Samantha Maiden was saying that when Albow was on it months ago, as the campaign has been announced, he kind of said a little bit off handedly, like keep an eye on Dixon, like they obviously thought that it might go, but it wasn't being treated seriously in any way by the media. And of course, the thing is about a leader losing his seat. This means he can't possibly carry on as leader because oh he's out of it. He's yeah,
he's basically no longer the member. And a woman called Ali Frantz is now. She has tried to get that seat three times. And her speech was also excellent where she said that people said it was ungettable, there was no way, and she said, yeah nah, those were her words, Yeah nah, I'm gonna try.
She has an extraordinary story. She lost a leg after a car accident I think in twenty eleven, and she's been a disability advocate since then, and she lost her eldest son, Henry last year, and you've got to think about what it must have taken for her. She said she's thought about him every day in his campaign. It was a historic night. The last time that we can think about a leader losing his seat was when John Howard lost his seat when he was Prime Minister.
Yeah, you know what was good about that. We were just all agreeing how gracious that speech was, because you can't overestimate how devastating this result is for Dotton personally, because he you know, everybody is saying that his campaign that he led was disastrous and that Australian people generally thought that he was unelectable. He's lost his own seat. But he also mentioned Ali Frantz's son in his concession speech.
I messaged you while we were watching that and I was saying, it makes me feel lucky to live in Australia because however you feel politically, the fact that speech was so gracious in that moment, and also that Albert did the same because when he made his acceptance speech and you know, he's just been handed a win that he didn't see coming, and the crowd started to boo Peter Dutton when Albo said Dutton's name, and he stopped them and he quite sternly chided them.
No, what we do in Australia is we treat people with respect.
I felt warm and fuzzy about that because I think you know, we talk a lot about the lowering of the tone of public debate, we talk a lot about the division, and I feel like this election result, but modeled by those two speeches in particular, was a rejection of that.
Yeah.
I felt very grateful that we live in a country where both leaders in this case gave humble and considered and graceful speeches. Like some people have said that the Trump factor clarified a lot of Australians on what they want and what they don't want, and that they've kind of got conflict fatigue. That's something that Alberanize has been working against a lot. But to have Dutton be so humble in that loss to accept it, which sounds so basic, but I think that that was that was really moving.
We're at a point now where the Liberal Party need a new leader, they need an internal review and a total party reset. And look, we of course know that out louders voted all sorts of ways for all sorts of different reasons, and we're not here to shame anyone or comment on anyone's vote. But the facts are the facts. Mea what happened, because at the.
Start of the year, the odds were that Dutton was going to be the next prime minister. I mean that's what the polling was saying. Alboat had some slips. There was a sense of despair within the ALP that they were just not ready. But then the campaign started because no one expected. When Dutton was first elected as leader of the opposition after the last election and Scott Morrison left,
no one really thought that he had a chance. But then he surprised people by being quite a good opposition leader in terms of having cut through getting a lot of support. And what's been interesting is that there's three different roles that you have to play as a politician. One is being opposition leader, one is campaigning to be the prime minister during an active campaign, and the third
is actually being prime minister. And some people are better in opposition than they are as prime minister, like Tony Abbott was quite good in opposition, but not what people wanted in a leader. And as soon as the campaign started, what's come out in the last forty eight hours is how prepared the Labor Party was and how ill prepared the Liberal Party was, and they had a lot of time.
It wasn't a surprise that the election was happening. In fact, the election was delayed a little bit because of the floods and the cyclone in Queensland. But they had no economic policy. They made mistakes in the policies that they announced, like the you know, all public servants were going to have to work from home. That was an own goal that they really couldn't recover from because that was positioned smartly by the AOP as being anti women, about being
a threat to the private sector as well. They had to then recount that position and they took a long time. You know, the idea that the Liberal government or the Liberal Party are the more fiscally responsible ones. They didn't really have any vision. They didn't really have any policies, and I think a lot of people said that both campaigns were pretty uninspiring. But even just the optics, I don't think a lot of people could name many Liberal politicians,
you know, certainly not many women. There are a couple Susan Lay, Jane Hume, but they weren't very high profile. And friend of the pod At Mortlock, who started a network called Hillmer's Network about trying to get more women elected to the Liberal Party. You know, she's been sounding the alarm for a really long time.
It felt like that was a very clear message that happened when Morrison was you know, kick the Teals came and the Teals came in, and it felt as though there are a lot of lessons learnt three years ago and all of them were forgotten.
Well, they just weren't picked up. Yeah, because you know, you say that the alarm's been sounding in the Liberal Party for a while that they need to modernize and they need to diversify in terms of who they are. And you know a lot of the Teal candidates would have been natural Liberals in a slightly different setting and they are smart, professional women. They obviously didn't feel they
had a place there. What the Labor Party would say, though, is they would say that they put quotas in place a very long time ago, that the Liberal Party have always poo pooed and said quotas are not for us. And it takes time to pay that off because you have to grow a talent bench and they have to mature and come to fruition. And now you know, in Queensland they've now got six new female Labor MPs. It's amazing,
you know, there's parity in that party. So I think one of the things that happened is that, because you're right here that it was a pretty dull campaign in many ways. But I think Albo read the mood, and the mood is we don't want more division, we don't want more rgbardi, we don't want this kind of you know, in the final weeks of the campaign, when we talked about it last week, suddenly we're talking about welcome to country. And in my electra there were posters around and I'm
sure my electric wasn't the only one. I live in a marginal seat in the regions of New South Wales Liberal Party posters that were like going woke is sending us broke. They were clearly trying to wedge a culture war argument that has been working in America and worked in various places. But it feels like Australians were like,
we're not interested in that. Because one of the things I find amazing about really decisive election results, it's just that idea that all these different people woke up in all these different parts of the country in their living room, put their song because I want to go to the pold and thought the same thing, and they didn't necessarily think, oh,
We love these guys. They're doing an amazing job. Like you know, there's been a lot of obviously disquiet about the cost of living and about all kinds of things, and from both sides of politics. You know, there are plenty of people who don't think labor have differentiated themselves enough on environment, on all kinds of issues like that, but enough people just went not not what that guy's selling. All over the country in all different Democrats didn't make it good enough.
Neither did Trumpet of Patriots. Clive Palmer's party crashed out again, like with all that money and all, so did one nation, so did one nation, and so did the Greens. No seats for the Greens. Adam Bant, the leader could lose his seat. The Teals held looks like they'll lose possibly lose one in Zoey Daniel and gain one in another seat. So there were some upsets. The good news is that it was over by eight.
Sure it was good for those how quickly it was over, And I think I agree with you that Dutton. You know, there were a few comments about things like hate media, which just echoed some trump isms that I think we are so sensitive to.
So it's very centrist, wasn't it in terms of the extreme parties on the left and the right. People rejected it for being in the center, which is how Australia is.
And I wonder how much tariffs and some of Trump's policies coming into fruition scared people. But I also think that there was some foreshadowing about what would happen because of what happened in Canada. It's a real reminder of how similar we are to Canada, because not only did their Left party won the election, I think only a week ago, their opposition leader also lost his.
Seat unexpectedly he was predicted to win, and then Trump and all the chaos and everyone went, oh no.
It feels like the message from Canada and Australia is we are not the United States. And I think Australians are relieved.
After the break the story that Australians were really more interested in than the election. We're talking, of course about Nagi versus books at times. At the end of last week, it felt like the big conversation in the country in election time was not Dutton or Albow, but was more Nagy or Brookie. If you don't know what I'm talking about, and I sincerely doubt it. Here's a very top line refresher and what happened between two of the biggest names
in Australian publishing and food last week. Now, I want to acknowledge before we get into this that where this has gone since the news broke on about Tuesday went the last week is it has turned into a bit of a toxic internet pylon. We definitely don't want to add to that, but it does touch on several big
themes that are really worth unpacking. I think Nagi Mahashi is probably the reason that I and many writers like me have a book deal actually, as in that her cookbooks as Recipe to Eats are so successful many people say that they keep the Australian publishing industry afloat. She's not the only one, of course, Brookies books are also very successful, and so are several others. Butts is a phenomena.
And her last book, which was called Tonight, broke industry records. It was the talk of the industry because I don't think there had ever been a nonfiction book in Australia that did what that.
Yet and the first one Dinner won the Book of the Year Award outside Jamie Oliver, like, it's hard to overstate how successful Nagi is and how much people love her those who don't cook.
What is special?
Puts cinnamon on my vegetables and it's really changed my life. I think that is her that told me.
Today be the thing that's great about Nagi. And I've recommended her recipes on this show before. It just works. So Nagi is known in the food world for being a rigorous, rigorous tester. She absolutely walks her talk. She doesn't phone anything in. She also has quite a big sort of charitable arm to what she does. She provides meals to vulnerable and homeless. But her recipes are just solid. Her cookbooks are very sensible. They have rules in them
and they just work. We make lots of Naggi things and they go.
Off when you say that, like does some recipes just not work?
Well?
You know, if you're a cookbook buyer, there are cookbooks you buy because they look nice and you want them on your shelf, but you're never going to open them.
Right, It'll be like reduce this to yeah, a lengu.
A level, Like I can't cook and I have Naggie because I think that she shee will hold her hand.
Yeah, and on a lengy whose recipes are amazing, but you have to go and buy twenty five new things, you know to make any meal in that book, whereas Naggi's much more what have you got in the cupboard? Let's make something on a Wednesday at five? You know, she's that person dinner exactly, which is why SU's genius. Now Brookie, on the other hand, who's also incredibly popular and very popular on social on TikTok in particular, she has got more of like a retail arm to what
she does. Right. So brookiees things dessert, particularly cookies and things, and she has shops, she has pop up shops, she has a cookie delivery business, and she's huge and like viral cookie recipes and things. So different, but saying ballpark right. Anyway, what happened last week is that Nagi says that brook Bellamy plagiarized two of her recipes, notably caramel slice and backlavar. She wrote on social media and on her blog about it,
and this is what she said. When a multimillion dollar cookbook by a social media influencer published by a blue chip publisher features numerous recipes that in my opinion are plagiarized given the detailed and extensive word for words similarity to mine and those of other authors. She said this wasn't a post she was publishing lightly, that she'd spent many sleepless nights freading over it and many hours writing
it to get it right. She said, I know the easiest and safest path would be to stay silent, and there's a risk that legal action will be brought against me for speaking out. It's daunting to take on a major publisher and an influencer with a huge TikTok for what do you think she wanted to achieve.
It's interesting because I wonder if and I'm sure we'll get into this, but copyright law around recipes is slippery, so to actually copyright your specific recipe, because there are only so many ways to make certain things, it's very hard to prove in a court of law. What you do own is the story around it. The IP is about the context that might exist in the book. But I think that Nagi probably knew, and she's clearly had this issue because she's consulted with lawyers, and I think
she felt stuck. And what Nagi had was the capital of her audience and the people who love what she does. A few things. The fact that Brookie's book was selling really, really well and that it had made a significant profit was one thing. The second, which is just worth noting, is that the Australian Book Industry Awards are coming up in Melbourne and they are both nominated in the same category for Illustrated Book of the Year, which is often
recipe books. And so I imagine for Nagi if we take and of course these allegations we can't prove or disprove, but if she's sitting there in Melbourne and you see Brookie Winn and you think that she's plagiarized one of your recipes, then that would be a hard thing to
sit with. But I also think that there's something revealing in maybe some of Nagi's language, and she refers to Brookie immediately as a social media influencer, and I wonder if a tension here is between the social media influencer and almost the old guard, which Nagi as someone who, as you say, she has built this relationship with her community and I'm not undermining Brookie at all, but there is this influencer subculture that can sometimes feel like they
click their fingers and decide to move into a certain industry like podcasting. And I don't think that is actually Brookie because just from what I know, she owns shops. As you were saying, she's been doing this for a lot of years. She isn't some influencer who's never tried to rest. But I do think that the reason this has got so much traction is because it's influencer versus olgard Like I think that's how we're positioning it.
This is what the allegations are.
Now.
Obviously Brookie has come out and said that absolutely isn't true. I didn't plagiarize. She's made the point that it's very difficult to differentiate classic recipes from each other, and she denies any claims of plagiarism. Of course, right, so that's what happened.
And then someone else came out, and then.
You know, as the way these stories evolve, now there are other people saying there are other things in here that were plagiarized, and some people are saying, well, Nagi sometimes has helped herself to all like this. It's spiraled and spiraled. I'd love to hear from youmir about what you think about where it's gone because predictably, and it's
depressing that this is predictable. This is spiraled into a massive pile on death threats, particularly for Brookie in the beginning, But it seems that Naggi's also copying a lot of blowback. Now a horrible place to be at the bottom of a social media pylon. It seems we can't look at a story like this without making it incredibly personal.
Well what happens now?
And Nagi has posted to say, please stop trolling.
I know that this is just a very very small percentage of people online. I know the majority of people are good, fun, normal people.
You know, share your opinions, have heated debates, support Bookie, support me, disagree with both of us, think we're pathetic, whatever you want, but keep it respectful.
Do you think that was inevitable? And what happens now?
Whenever I feel wronged, the first thing I do is go to the group chat, any group chat, and say what's happened? And I need people to meet me at my level of outrage, frustration, indignation, right, and that is all I need And then I calm down, But I need them to reflect back at me. So I'm like it's not fair, and they're like, that's outrageous. How could that happen? The problem is when you do that on social you always have to say to yourself, what do
I want the outcome of this to be? And that's why I said to you, Jesse, what did Nagi want when she did that? She says she didn't want money. Did she want an apology, she wanted to wanted an admission? Did she want all of those things. My understanding is that Brooki's publisher had already said they're going to change the recipes in future issues of the book whatever. But the problem when you take it to social and I
think that is what Nagi wanted. She wanted everybody to say this isn't fair, how upsetting, and reflect back to her. So she felt seen and heard and understood. But the problem is when it's on social and out of the group chat, and you're famous and it's someone else famous and it's in public, you lose control of it immediately, and you lose control of what people say about you, You lose control about what people say about the other person.
It takes on the life of its own. And I think that when Nagi then came out and was like, I don't want people to troll. This is out of control. A lot of people understandably said, what did you think was going to happen? And I know that some people have said Nagi maybe just doesn't understand social media. I don't buy that she's a digital native. She's started on a blog, she's smart. I think both of these women are smart. I think it's really sad that these two
incredible business women that this has become the narrative. You can't turn off that tap once you turn it on. That's why you've got to always be so careful, and that's why there have been times when the three of us have had to check each other and just go, don't post, don't post, don't post, don't say it. I know it feels unfair that you've been accused of this thing,
or that this person's done this thing. Don't say anything, because you're just going to make it worse, and that, to me, that's what's happened.
I agree with you. I did see that, and I thought we are well acquainted enough with the internet to know that death threats were where it's going to go, protesting outside that shop, boycotting the.
Business, abusing the employees.
Her life was going to be Brookie and the fetal position was an inevitability.
But I think that's what Nagi wanted.
Yes, okay. And on the other hand, to Nagi's point, if you are either of these women, your recipes and your work is your entire livelihood. Like Nagi has spent the last however many years putting together these recipes, and she, I think wanted to draw a line in the sand and say I want to have a discussion or I want to make a point about ip because I've got someone who's just come out of nowhere and taken my recipe.
I think in a AI climate as well, there's an enormous sensitivity among writers about having their work use for someone else's profit.
And chefs will often do a cooks or recipe. Writers will often do a hat tip to another person who's inspired the recipe or whatever. That's very common. I wonder how many enterprising bakers made caramel slices instead of democracy sausages for the stalls.
Oh, there's been a lot on Saturdays, a lot of cravings. But I think for those of us who don't understand cooking and don't understand recipes. The discovery for me has been that recipe books are so much about connection and so much about trust and how you feel towards that author, and that's been in to Blye and I think irretrievably undermined in Brookie's work.
After the break, Prince Harry has broken his silence again. The new interview that came out over the weekend. We are going to unpack it.
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link at the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Prince Harry gave an interview to the BBC over the weekend that has been described as heartbreaking, petulant, misguided, seething and a really bad idea by anyone who watched it. He sort of seems to veer between wanting to punch someone and bursting into tears. It followed his loss in a Court of appeal case in the UK where he sought to reinstate his full publicly funded police protection after it was removed when he and Megan step back from
royal duties in twenty twenty. Here's some of what he had to say.
It is very clear that from twenty twenty, because I was no longer allowed an official role, and because I decided to remove myself eventually from the institution, that my life got devalued from the highest score to the lowest score overnight.
And how does that make you feel?
Given you have expressed numerous times that you do not want history to repeat itself.
I don't want history to repeat itself. I think there's a lot of other people out there, the majority, they also don't want history repeat itself. Through the disclosure process, I've discovered that some people want history to repeat itself, which is pretty dark. I would love reconciliation with my family. You know, there's no point in continuing to fight anymore. As I said, life is precious. I don't know how
much longer my father has. You know, he won't speak to me because of this security stuff.
Oh that is so dark. He's, of course, referring to Diana. His mother refused her royal security protection because she thought that they were spying on her, and that ended obviously tragically. The reaction was very swift after the interview, the British public overwhelmingly think Harry and Meghan should lose their role titles,
and Buckingham Palace issued a very blunt statement. They said, all of these issues have been examined repeatedly and meticulously by the courts, with the same conclusion reached on each occasion.
I don't get it. I don't get why people are so angry.
Falling off my chair with irritation Harry. One of my Roman empires is why Meghan cops all the abuse when Harry is just the most entire I'm just going to say it, He's just the most entitled winger in public life. Like I read a whole book about how hard done by he is. It's a very good book. I encourage you all to read it. But he just has this entire inability to be able to see how unbelievably privileged he is, and how every time he puts himself in
a victim sy over and over and over again. How can you sit there and basically say, which is what he just did? That my dad doesn't really care if I die or if his grandchildren die. He doesn't really care, just wants to win. And then in the next breath say I'd love a reconciliation. I don't know how much time he's got left. It's like you want a reconciliation with your family. When you're going on the record on the BBC and basically saying that I don't care whether or not I do.
I'm saying it was an establishment stitut that's insane.
I okay, I did not watch it. I've watched a few clips. But I think that the reason we find this difficult to watch and the outcry by a lot of people is because we're not watching a grown man. We're watching a frightened little boy.
Yes, but that's his problem. He's got a lot of therapy, is it.
Is it a problem that he directly inherited from the man who is denying him protection. Like, I think that he comes cross as well. I was gonna say paranoid, but I think he might have a point.
He's not paranoid.
Yeah, I think that he's right in being terrified about his own security.
But this is this is a point to prove situation right, because actually the way things stand is that it's a case by case basis on whether or not he will get tax payer funded security. Now to be clear on this.
If people are wondering what the argument's about, Let's say that Taylor Swift goes to the UK or anywhere in the world, right, she pays for her own security, except and Harry brought this up in court, actually that when she came to the UK most recently for Eras, she did get a little bit of help from the government. She did get a bit of like police escort to venues and things like that. But in general, high profile, rich and famous people pay for their own security. They
do not expect the governments of the land to do that. Now, Harry's point is he's not just rich and famous person, he's a royal. He chose not to be a royal. He chose to go and make his own money and make his fortune. And I'm cheering him on in that because, as I've been saying to me last few weeks, one thing I learned from all the Megan videos I'm watching at the moment is she seems so happy. They built a beautiful life, a wonderful life, and they are coining
it in. He is making handover fist millions of dollars here and there. His book is the highest selling non fiction book of all time? Why on earth should he when he goes to England, not on royal duties, but because, as he said, I want to visit my friends. Why on earth should taxpayers pay for him?
Well, the reason is, and he says, when you've got official government security, they can have guns, they've got access to information and intelligence and I five and all of the secret stuff. When you've got private security, they can't carry weapons in the UK and they don't have all of that intel. The part that I think he's got a point about is that he was born as the son of the king. And what's interesting to me is he never says that, but he implies it. He basically says,
I was born into this. So the fact that he's not doing royal duties anymore and they've moved to the US, he's still the son of the king and that can't change. And that wasn't something that he chose.
Yeah, he never chose that he was born into it and that will follow him until the day that he dies. And he says that him and his family have been subjected to well documented neo Nazi and extremist threats, including from al Qaeda, and you know, people talk about his privilege and not acknowledging his privilege. His mother was killed, like his mother died in a way that was very, very traumatic for him, and I think that that's something.
Because of private security, because there was a drunk driver, because they didn't know what they would do.
I think that the emotions. This is a man who has just lost a very important court case that clearly mattered a lot to him. He's angry, he feels aggrieved, he wants justice, and I can appreciate and have empathy for all of those feelings alongside wanting reconciliation. He's right that one day, of course, King Charles is going to die and they're not going to be able to repair this broken relationship. But in wanting justice and in speaking out, that's obviously it's causing great.
There is no way, and he says it in this interview. He says, they're mad with me because I wrote a book. Yes, they are mad with you because he wrote a book,
but for many other reasons too. How many ways do you reject your family and criticize your family and accuse them of some of the worst things you could accuse a person of not loving their son, not protecting their son, throwing you under the bus, doing all these things that obviously we don't hear the other side of this story because they haven't written their books about it, which that's not what royals do. Yeah, but now I'm not a royalist, let's be clear. It's not that I'm like, oh, he's
not behaving like a royal. I just think it is unbelievably misguided to just constantly be winging and winging and winging about this when he could pay for the best private security in the world, and he could also have the royal security when he comes on royal duties.
Not when he goes there. But I mean, his argument also is that he's given thirty five years of service, including two tools of duty. Now the two tools of duty is different thing. I mean, he is a serviceman, he went to Afghanistan, but that doesn't entitle you to secure to security rights who don't have no exactly veterans don't. But a lot of people have said, well, thirty five years of what living in palaces and having a very indulged life and not having to do that much to
earn it. But what I see when I watch that, it's really typical of some people that I say online who claim to be victims and then they do things that ensures that they will be attacked and that their victim status feels more justified, you know, so that they almost like constantly retraumatize himself. So the story he tells himself is that his family have rejected him, and he's the spare. Literally he's the spare. His brother's going to be the king, his dad's already the king, and they
don't care about him. And then he keeps doing these things, like he said, I wanted to keep serving, they wouldn't let me. He sounds very childish in the way that he's My old therapy would have said, how old do you feel right now?
Pet?
Yes, But he sounds like a little child going it's not fair. Daddy doesn't love me as much as he loves William.
That's exactly what he sounds like. And yet he's made a whole documentary series about his mental health. You know, we've read about the amount of therapy he's doing and how happy he is doing what he's doing. Right now, it's like, just shush, just stop throwing rocks at these people who have they have no choices in their situation. Either the King was born into his role William was born into his. They're trying to do the best they can while Harry throws rocks at them from every angle
all the time. Of course, I don't think that he's overstating the danger to your point, Jesse, I don't think that like he absolutely would be a very high risk out in the world. But I just think that the idea that the public should pay for it, even though I no longer work in a public role, is just intensely miscarded.
I reckon that his anger is saying, Dad, King of England, you had me, you knew exactly what you were doing when you had two sons, and you owe me protection. My dad should look after me. I think that's what he's saying.
We will be arguing about Prince Harry out louders off Mike for some time today. I can feel it in my waters. Anyway. A massive thank you for being here with us on this Monday. We love having you with us. A massive thanks to to our fabulous team for putting the show together.
Thanks for having us in Perth. Perth, Yes, and.
We will see you soon Brisbane.
Why why shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do so. There is a link in the episode description