US Election Emergency Meeting: Not Again

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on out louders. Welcome to our emergency meeting about the American election. If you've listened to the main show or you're going to, you'll know that we've kind of thrown everything out. We're starting again because we wanted America like America is, because we wanted to meet you where you are right now. It is as we're recording this nearly four o'clock on Wednesday afternoon.

The temperature is not great.

The temperature is not great. And Nate Cohene, who is the New York Times statistician, has pretty much called the election for Trump. He said, for the first time tonight, we consider Trump likely to win the presidency. He has an advantage in each of Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. To win, Harris would need to sweep all three. There's still a lot of vote left, but in the voting so far Trump is narrowly but discernibly ahead. The Harris camp, as

I think you put that perfectly, Holly.

I have to speak here, not as a journalist, but as an American, and as a woman, and as a parent. I won't say mother, as a parent, and I feel devastated. And that's because this was not a normal election. In a normal election, I wouldn't tell you how I felt about the result. But the problem here is that this was not a normal election. This was not a normal candidate. He's been found liable for sexual assault. He currently has

Did you feel that way in twenty sixteen?

I mean, this is very reminiscent of the emergency meeting we had in twenty sixteen. Although it does feel different. Then, we all thought it was a lay down for Hillary.

I'm with her.

We came to work in our pantsuits, We pre recorded a whole lot of content about the first female president. He seemed like such a buffoon to us and such grabbed you by the pussy like all of that. We thought he was such a disqualified candidate in terms of no one would ever vote for him. So when he won, there was absolute shock and disbelief, which then became quite energizing in a way and led to like the pink pussy hats in the street and in some ways me too, and in many ways me too probably was.

Action to that. This feels different. I don't think.

Yeah, I don't feel shocked today like a normous I don't feel shocked, disappointment or even trying to get our head around the ramifications of it. But do you feel shock, Amelia?

No, I don't feel shocked.

How is it different for you?

Yeah? Twenty an interesting question about how it feels different to twenty sixteen.

The way I think it's different is January.

Sixth, in particular, because we knew he was a sexist, and he said horrible things about immigrants, and he just seemed like an unpleasant person.

But and he was unqualified, and he was you couldn't have policy agrifts with people, and in twenty sixteen we could convince ourselves that maybe this was going to be about policy. Different because remember, people will like take him seriously, but don't take him literally.

This is not about policy.

This is about what it says about how we think about women, how we think about living in a democracy.

These are much more financial issues.

That's also why there are a lot of women in Australia and all around the world who also are feeling very shaken by what it looks like about to happen. And often we get we don't live in America.

Who cares?

I mean, as an American, As you've said, Emilia, this is very different for you. But I think that's women feel that same visceral thing that given two choices here, but again between a capable, qualified woman and a man who openly whips up hatred against women. He is a convicted rapist, they still chose him. So we also need to be clear that the people might be listening to this later and things might look different, but it is so close.

It doesn't actually matter if things look different later, because we still need to ask the question of how we got here. How I am sitting here biting my nails about this man being re closed to the so close to the presidency. Even if there's a miraculous turn around for Harris, that question still remains.

I'm really disturbed by the gender split. So a lot of the research in the lead up was about how men were going one way and women were going another, And even the ads for Harris in the last minute was sort of about you know, your husband or your partner doesn't have to know that you're voting for her, that you're voting for her. It almost feels like men went and did something behind women's backs, and in that way, it feels really threat It's not.

The floor, it's the feature.

Oh, you were saying in the segment we recorded for the main show which we ended.

Thrown in the bin talk about that rally.

I was saying, how again, to the point of why women everywhere feel so despondent, panicky about this is In one of his final rallies, Trump was talking about Harris and he said she's crazy, she's stupid, all the things he usually said. And he said she's and he started to say the word bitch he said, and he said, no, no, I can't say that. I want to say that, but I won't, And the entire crowd started chanting bitch, bitch, bitch, and that when I even say that, now I get

You've just explained for me the connection between the idea of how women are feeling and then also the idea of what it means for democracy. I feel panicky because it feels like the rules that we all agreed on have broken down. One of those rules was about how elections are conducted, that you need to listen to the people and listen to.

How they vote and respect those results.

And now that is that you need to treat women with respect and like human beings. And that's why democracy and treating women this way are connected and make me feel panicky because it feels like there are no rules anymore.

I remember in twenty sixteen when we spoke, Jacqueline Lunn was on the podcast and she said that she didn't know how to go home and talk to her kids about it, because she was like, I've spent my whole life trying to teach my kids that bullies are bad, and that, as you say, there's a number of rules, and we teach people not to be cheats or greedy or.

Mean or rude or mock people call them.

Arrogant or criminals or unprepared or sexist or racist or liars, whatever it is. And it feels this is the most ridiculous now, but it just shows where I'm at in my life. Amelia, do you know the song Wiggletown.

It's a song.

About everything being about Wiggletown. That's like it has like a short it's a tall the taller shore, the fish's fish, the men get caught anyway. It's in my house all the time, and I keep thinking, this is Wiggletown. It's like everything's upside down. It's like things are not as they're meant to be. And I think that's why we all feel so disoriented. It's like this isn't how the world works.

You've also just made me think about the fact that I do have to go home and talk to my fourteen year old daughter about this. And we've talked about this before on hour shows about this with you, Amelia, that one of the things that makes Trump a very effective political figure is his color and movement and his fact he always plays a shock factor and that kids on TikTok understand who he is, right, you know, what I mean is drama. He's drama and they like that

In most states in America, in all states in America, you can't wear a T shirt that says Harris Woles or Trump for that matter, into a polling booth. You can't have any kind of political slogan on your T shirt. But in a lot of states you can openly carry a gun into the polling booth.

Now, that is not a country that we can understand.

And I want to be really careful because Amelia is here, and I don't want to say horrible things about America because you and I have had fights about that before. Amelia, I understand.

But I got some news for you, Mia, and you're not going to like it. There was a poll done by Yugov last week in Australia and it showed that young men are breaking for Trump at twice the rate that young women are breaking. There's basically no women who support you, young women who support Trump?

Why is that bad news?

Because this is a global thing, sorry in Australia and this cultural moment where young men feel anger and like they hate women is not going to stay within the boundaries of one country.

Who did Trump get like? Who did how did this happen? Who broke for Trump? Surprisingly?

Because remember last time there was all that oh white women let America down because they voted for Trump more than they voted for Hillary.

Or what's happened? Who's he won? Whose hearts and minds? Has he changed?

Well, I would flip the question around and say that Harris didn't win any new groups and that's the problem.

So Latinos, black men like you would have thought that black people would have voted for her. She's the first black female candidate. You know, we saw Obama move so many votes. Is it a case that the only thing worse than a racist rapist is a woman? Is that what a lot of people?

Because well, Trump is the only president in American history to have beaten a woman once, potentially beaten a woman twice. And so we can see it as Trump chose words. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we can see it as Trump winning, or we can see it as a woman really really losing.

I want to contextualize a little bit, and this relates to your earlier point me out. So, first of all, yes, like in Australia, young men feel in similar ways to the way that we saw young men feeling in the United States. Secondly, incumbent governments all over the world are getting voted out. People are angry generally about the state of the world, and you've seen like in Europe, which we think of as a bastian of progressive ideals. In the Netherlands, they just voted in a far right guy.

Don't you think that's also about concentrations bans. It's like this idea of continuity. I don't think anyone gets more than one term anymore. I think those days.

I think it's also that there was a really good analysis by Adam mcgerney in the Sydney Morning Herald, which I think was first in the New York Times and it was republished. But he said that when citizens feel that the country is going in the wrong direction, they vote the opposite. So if you have a sense of distrust or you feel you're not happy with the current regime, then obviously you're going to vote for the other.

I also heard it said that in twenty twenty Trump lost because of the pandemic, and in twenty twenty four he won because of the pandemics, meaning that our brains are broken. Everyone's so angry about the pandemic. The lockdowns are too long, they weren't enough lockdowns. They're angry about vaccines, they're angry about not vaccines. Everyone is angry, and why would you want to continue down one path when you can shake things up?

Yeah, yeah, so Amelia, as Mia said, we're not sitting here going what's wrong with America. But the thing that is also very different from twenty sixteen is everybody knows exactly who Donald Trump is. Now, as you started this show laying out his credentials, shall we call him access Hollywood?

Was maybe that was locker room talk. I mean, it wasn't entirely clear that he was going.

To follow or as to the occasion, so said, everybody knows exactly who he is. They know exactly what he's capable of, exactly what he'll do, and America has still chosen him, like it does look at this point that he is going to win decisively. We don't know certainly, but it's looking like he is. He's also going to win the Senate. So America has chosen him. And when you're going to get asked, as you inevitably are a million times over the next few weeks, why have they

Yeah, I'm glad that you raised it because me is right that we have had arguments about oh, maybe the whole of America is just irridimable. Not that you said that, but that's the sort of accusation I'm sensitive to. And I always want to point out to people how big America is, how diverse it is, and how polarized it is. So for instance, in Australia, I know labor voters and I know liberal voters. I don't even know whom most

So I feel that there are many Americas.

There's so many Americas. Someone asked me the other day how it was that in America it's so difficult to get an abortion, and yet you know, gay marriage came to the US two years before it came to Australia, And I said that that's America in a nutshell. It's like every individual state is kind of a country. And the problem is you've got these countries that are actually

Twenty four hours ago, I saw a video of Elon Musk being interviewed by Joe Rogan, and when I saw that clear that was going viral, I had a real sense.

That the Trump was in.

What happened in It was Joe Rogan, this was just before he officially endorsed Trump, but he was speaking to Elon Musk and they were having this conversation, winding each other up and talking about how important it was that Trump won. And then Elon Musk turned and he looked down the barrel of the camera and essentially said the Dame was.

Won the selection.

They will legalized enough illegals to turn the swing states and everywhere will be like California.

There will be no escape that.

I'm sane. This is it. This is the last chance. Go out and vote.

Vote like your life depends on it, Vote like your future depends on it, because it does.

This was the last chance man.

The way that he stoked the fear of immigration, I realized in that video that it felt as existential for the Republican side as it did for the Democrats, which I didn't realize until that moment. And the second thing was I thought, people will excuse everything if they are scared, and I refuse to accept that Americans are bad or evil, or dumb or immoral or all of the things.

That are going to come through. I think they're scared, and I think.

It's very scared of the fact that women can't get abortion.

And that he's gonna and that all the signs are showing that he is going to be an authoritarian leader who's going to dismantle the civil service.

That's not what they think they voted for. And I think that that's we talked about echo chambers in twenty sixteen. I think that there's been a lot of really important work done to deconstruct them, and I think the left has done a lot of soul searching and has gone how is it that we live in these silos? I really think that they have, and I don't think that conservatives.

Are the thing.

But here's the thing that's interesting about that. You know how we were saying did he win or did she lose?

Right?

She has had the broadest church, She's had Republicans up there speaking for her, She's done all of those things. She's had every famous person in the world. She's had more money, like the Democrats have raised more money than ever, and none of it's moved the needle.

On the abortion point.

I read some analysis that was really compelling to me that said, the reason why that didn't move the needle is because of that state's idea that I was mentioning to you, if you live in a state where you live in Massachusetts or California, you can be pretty sure that you will always get an abortion.

But isn't he going to make federal legislation which is essentially the opposite of roversus Wade, which will override I think.

That feels so hypothetical. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. And I'm not justifying this. I'm not saying it's right, but whether it's xenophobia, whether immigrants, immigration and the economy, was a literal.

Illegal immigrant to the United States, as has been recently reported.

It was interesting to me to note that.

Is married to the daughter of immigrants.

But this is.

Overstated student visa and started a business when he wasn't meant to. He literally broke the immigration.

He would be deported onder the News Millenia.

There's also some evidence that she did some of various stuff with her visa when she first arrived in the US.

Two But to me, it's not just illegal immigrants that Trump's stoking the fears of it's just any immigrants, it's xenophobia.

It's just I think it's specifically this idea. It's a bit different from say, the Brexit thing, which Holly, you feel free to interject and tell me I'm not getting it. But to me, that was about a demographics debate. It's like what do we want this country to look like? In the US, it's more specifically about this very simplistic idea of people coming over the southern border and then raping and pillaging, and.

That is not in a way dissimilar to Australia's obsession with illegal immigrants and stop the boats right, which is one elections for Australian prime ministers, except on a vastly different scale.

That is such an apt comparison.

It's not a debate about what we want the country to look like.

It's not that sophisticated. Unfortunately.

It's more just about this idea of the hordes coming up from the southern border and criminals.

Because I heard in Republican circles talk about you've got abortion over here in women's rights, and then you've got Republicans talking about protecting women, and they think they're protecting women because they're keeping the criminals out.

Like there's this This mean appeared with Trump at one of his last rallies and teared up. This is the woman who, by the way, he basically complained about her being on a period in twenty sixteen. She appears with him at this rally with tears in her eyes and she's like, thank you for protecting me.

The thing is.

To Elon Musk for a minute. He isn't just a famous person influencer type. He's not Beyonce. He's like the richest man in the world. It controls almost everything, and Trump buddying up to him and a few of the other big tech guys and promising them whatever they've wanted. I think, without question, has got to be one of the biggest parts of it.

I think one tweet I agree with everything, except I think it was the tech guys that butted up to Trump. Trump didn't sit down and come up with a strategy.

They're the evil genius pulling the strings like Putin.

It's like Kim Jong un is not the puppet as Trump accused of being.

Trump's the puppet.

Look, we're going to wrap up, but I just what.

I'm closed, then nothing can happen.

I don't want to go home.

Is that women are feeling different today all around the world. I think, sorry, not all women, but in Australia as well. Women's reactions to this versus men's reactions, like even if you're anti Trump, which my husband is and my sons are, but it's different. My daughter and.

I are like.

It's hard to explain it is.

That is the closest I've heard to how I feel fear.

To me, it's fear and it's just me. That's what it feels like, Like.

I want to be and it's like Oh, I thought we'd established like what you said about I thought we'd established with ground ruels.

I thought you just doubles that. Maybe the guy.

Running for public office doesn't just call a woman garbage and a bitch and dumb.

And sex change. And it's like everyone went, yeah, he's a rapist. Yeah he's my guy. I want that guy. She's a rapist.

About that demographic of men that scares me. It's almost like this in cell underworld. And that's horrible because I know that's only a very small percentage, but it's all these college bros, all these Maybe it's not Jesse.

I think that's why we're freaking.

I thought it was because I thought it was a small percentage, and I thought they wouldn't leave their houses, but because remember in the US, you can always just stay at home, but they didn't.

They went out.

And the women women.

Must have voted for him too, Like they must have a lot of people didn't.

A lot of people in the US voted for Harris, and like that must sting today and.

As we're talking now, we don't know. But in the days before, they were saying women were coming out in record numbers.

So Zara Curtis, who's our chief content officer. I was speaking to her the other day who somehow managed to get through the whole Joe Rogan Trump interviewed.

Oh, she listened for three hours.

She listened to three hours, and she said, I listened because I was waiting for either man to use her name, first or second name. And they went for three hours and neither of them ever said her name.

They referred to her as her or she, which I.

Think fel to humanized.

Yes.

Yeah, look, and we've got to be careful because it just feels very emotional. It feels like more than just you know, there are election nights in Australia where the person you've wanted to win didn't win, and it's a bummer and you feel annoyed or you feel upset or whatever. But I don't think you feel existentially under threat.

How do you feelk It's different from twenty sixteen.

I think in twenty sixteen it was a shock.

This year it's much more despair because we've been here. It's like last time it almost could have been a glitch in the matrix.

And that's why I.

Think those first couple of years was so energizing. Because it's like, wait till they find this out, and wait till and something will happen and the cavalry and he'll just get kicked out or he'll be disqualified. And it's like, not only that, but he was nearly re elected in twenty twenty, then he was charged with all of these crimes.

Then he was convicted of being a rapist, and still looks like an overwhelming.

Victory, and now he's got that process that except, yeah, that's exactly what it is.

We always thought it was glitching the matrix and that it was like the other shoe will drop.

It wasn't a flaw. It was a feature. They love this about him, They love all all of this about him.

Can I ask one more question, Jesse, you said the Rogan endorsement was when you kind of knew things were not going well.

Why did he do that and why did you do it's so late? Do you think I think that was intentional?

I think the lateness of it all was intentional because it was on the day that was energizing. If I'm a man in and I'm trying really hard not to be disparaging, because I actually think this disparaging tone that is used against men has the problem as part of the problem. But what I was going to say is like the man who's sitting in his basement got up and went and voted because it was new, and it was the first thing that like I work up to. It was a headline. It was a headline that ran everywhere.

It was just like the same reason that the Washington Post, owned by Jeff Bezos, who went against what's been happening for the last sort of twenty or thirty years and.

Didn't endorse either candidate.

Everyone was talking about that, and the surprise and the analysis was that it's called something antipaider rey obedience that everybody knew, including Joe Rogan, including Elon Musk, including they sniffed the wind, and they knew if they went against Kamala they wouldn't be punished if Kamala got in, but if they went against Trump.

He's got a burn book.

Yah do you that but burn book. He has been clear about punishing his enemy and one of the most one of the things he's most well known for is his streak of intense revenge. So there'll be a lot of people in American media and politics right now packing their bags. I want to know what do we leave our out louders with. Obviously, as we say it's Wednesday night, we don't know for sure for sure, but this is the way it's all looking.

I've got one bit of hope.

So, as I said at the start, things work in pendulums, right, And I think one of the things that came out of a Trump presidency was me too. And I think that there's something that can be quite galvanizing and quite organizing and almost unifying.

But we've just seen that mea. We've just seen this enormous swell of support for Harris.

All the volunteers.

I don't think the problem here is that the left have been galvanized. I think a lot of the blame will probably end up falling on the Democrats, and Biden should have resigned sooner, and they didn't go through the right process, and she was never a strong enough candidate and the nation wasn't ready for her. We'll see all that, but it's too soon for that now. But I think you can't argue that they haven't tried hard.

I have a bright spot.

Thank God.

Trump's a bit miserable too, Like he looks tired.

There was the swaying at the rally. I mean, he's not going to have a good time.

But if he goes off to play golf, who he leaves in charge and not the people you really want in charge? JD. Don Junior, I'm not.

I'm sorry to stop it.

I think sixteen was about Echo Chambers, and I think twenty twenty four is going to be about gender. I think that that's going to be the thing that's going to be the next year.

We got there with Hillary because you said this to me recently, you said, the reason we didn't get that with Hillary is because she was a Clinton, so there was so much baggage there.

I think it has got worse.

But there's also but there's also always an excuse for why a woman isn't the right woman. It's like, well, she was a Clinton and Harris is of color, and the nation isn't ready for that, and that woman will be this, and that woman will be that. There's always a reason why the stop putting women forward because I.

Don't exactly like I just for the rapist is what the popular votes seem to say in America.

You know what I'm going to do. I don't know if I'm allowed to do this, I'll be checking in. I'm gonna turn my fucking phone off. That's what I'm gonna do.

Until Friday when we upload. We're gonna do a Friday episode where we do not talk about the election one time because escapism and distraction.

So there we go there on Friday with nothing about this dark day.

Nothing.

We love you, Thanks everyone.

Big hugs out louders.

That's all We've got, chocolate, ice cream coffee.

Bye bye