UNPACKED: Famesick - Lena Dunham

You're listening to a Mother and mea podcast. Hello out loud as a gangzel Here, we've got a full house today joining me, Holly Wayne Wright, Amelia Lester, m Vernon.

Hello, Hello, Hello, And we're here to talk.

About Lena Dunham's Fame Sick. And we've got a very crowded desk because everybody has thoughts.

Everybody wants to talk about.

It, and we had to lock the studio so Kleas Stevens could again. We have all read Lena Dunham's second memoir before we get to it and how we felt about it. It's called Fame Sick, and it's about the time in her life when she was both becoming famous

I did not read it. Not a complete tst you.

Missed out or nothing.

I read about it a lot same.

I didn't read it either, And what I read about it was a lot of people didn't like it.

Why didn't we like it? Amelia?

First of all, I had to say, I went to the book party. What did her first book party?

The actual one, the actual irl.

It was held at New York editor David Bremnick's house or.

His apartment, the most incredible, and he.

Has bookshelves that have ladders. I'm just going to say that, which I know is holly history.

I would love that.

And the funny thing was reading this book, I realized that when that book came out, she was at the peak of that toxic fame era. She was really in a mess, and you could tell at the party. I'd never met her before, but I went up to introduce myself because I was a big fan and she kind of treated me like she was uncomfortable with the praise. She didn't really want to hear from me. She thought that I was like one of the obsessive fans who

That was peak irritation with Lena Dutton. One of the things that makes this book so great is she's coming back, you know, almost a decade later and looking back at all that time, with all the perspective, and I think the world was ready to hear it. I think at the time no one wanted to hear more. They felt like they'd heard so much Lena. Everywhere they looked. She had her newsletter. Then she was writing all the times she was the queen of and it was what you

Of the moment.

But now I think the world is ready to hear this story, and that's why it's so well received, and the fact that she's always just been the most incredible writer.

She has been. There's a new generation that's also rediscovering girls.

Yeah, and also with John said.

General watching it, are you?

I watched it, I think after it came out a few years, like five or six years after, and it's now one of my constant rewatches. But what was really interesting that I learned about fame seeking this memoir is that a lot of younger girls, even some my age, who didn't know Lena Dunham at all, are kind of reading it in their book clubs, and they're reading it like a novel, because it does read like a novel, like it reads like a piece of fiction from a

What do you mean?

Because I've seen it on a New York Times bestsellers list and they're just like I just want to read this book. And I think when we go to read a memoirs, you kind of know who that person is and they don't know.

How So you mean like jen Z's reading it just as a bit say.

I also want to on that point, that's really interesting about how people are reading it as a novel. It's very revealing to me that the cover is sort of an Alice in Wonderland trope of legs falling down.

They're not her eggs.

What an interesting choice for a memoir to not have the person pose on the cover.

I don't know they weren't heleg I assumed they were her legs.

Look, this is our forensic journalist here.

I believe Amelia, though I will definitely be trusting.

She did an interview with the New York Times just when the book came out, and again it has been a very corrective reception for her, I would say, because the book and the tour and her legacy has been

Listen? Listen? Yeah, we all did.

The audio sales of this book are going to be absolutely huge.

Why do you think we did? Because she is a beautiful writer. And I said to you, Amelia, now I's going to read it because she's a beautiful writer.

But you said, well, because she's famous for writing people talking. She's a green writers. So I wanted to hear her say the words.

And I do love listening to memoirs that are read by the TOFA.

It's like listening to a really long podcast, and you can do it in chunks and you can sort of pace yourself with it.

You feel like you're also gleaning a little bit of extra information from how they read certain.

Sections on that. A friend asked me if she should listen, and I said, yes, but don't try to binge it. I wasn't able to binge it. I had to have breaks. Did you find that I pretty.

Much binged it?

I have to say I listened to it pretty solidly on a few long drives, and I just I was hungry for it. I read it cleaning and I read it packing, and I wanted to get there. I found it quite propulsive, like I was dying to get.

It's one of those books that's so good that when you finish you feel a bit sad.

I did feel a bit sad you warned me about that.

I binged it up until we got to the part where she started talking about her addiction and she was in rehab. I found that I found that kind of like a sub story within the memoir, like it felt

It felt like to me. The book ended a number of times and then kept going, and I thought that was quite evocative of chronic illness and perhaps the cycle of fame. But what did you take away about her relationship with her parents?

One of the things I thought, because so she's very, very close to her family, right, and she that's not a secret about her and her parents are They're kind of arty New Yorkers.

Aren't they right?

They weren't famous, but they were respected in their fields. And she grew up in Manhattan, a very atypical upbringing, really growing up in Manhattan and in Brooklyn and in this ARTI world and going to very liberal schools and everything.

Time you fall, which she did have.

And it was you know, the number of times she would go back to her parents' place, stay there. They'd put her back together, they'd know her back to health, they'd send her back out into the world. They were always her first call when things went wrong. They always forgave it. They're kind of tough love in some ways, but not ever in a way that they might take it back, you know, retract their love for her, And

I thought it was so interesting, so well written, and so insightful.

So because her mom was an artist, as I said, and had not really a level of fame, but a level of fame in the art world, and suddenly your daughter is this absolute lightning rod and journals are going to your shows to try and glean secrets and make judgments, and your Lena Dunham's mother instead of being yourself, And how annoying that would be. I could really relate to that. That would be so annoying. And I loved how honest she was about all that and about them coming back together.

She describes her parents as helicopter parents, but you could also tell with the way she talks about them that she was very much leaning into it and very much wanted that.

That part where.

She came out of one of her surgeries and she said she could have chosen to go home with Jack, who was there waiting for her and she chose to stay with a parent and would message him and say, I need one more day with my parents before I come home. It was like she would always use a parent as kind of a safety blanket.

Does it arrest your development though? Does it stop you from growing up?

I disagree with you. Oh yeah, I think it does. I think it's interesting to say it was clear eyed. I actually thought it was lacking in a willingness to question or interrogate the way she was brought up. It was like this was the best possible way it could be brought up. There were no trade offs, Like, yes, say her dad comes in swoops into rescue her when she gets a Q tip stuck in her ear, when she is literally making a show on HBO, Like that's probably one of the most adult tasks you could ever

I'll be harsher. I think she is a failure to launch. I think that she has this very infantilized role that she still plays with her parents. You know the fact that she's in an adult relationship with a man who she lives with. She has surgery, and she goes home to her parents constantly through the book, and I get that Jack was off and away, but sometimes he wasn't.

It's not what I would want. I mean when I say that I think it saved her. I don't mean to say that I think it was entirely positive and healthy. I just mean in terms of the context of fame, drugs, that world, having that saf nest, even whether that's a good thing or a bad thing to keep going back to, it is something that makes the difference so many times about how lost you can get.

I think it saved her, but it also stunted.

Her, and it also maybe led her down that path in some ways as well. Like I mean, I feel like it's interesting that you said that she said he her best friend. He would not say that she was his best friend. In fact, what came through to me was a curious asymmetry in that relationship. Remember when she first gets the girl's deal and he says something like is that a good thing? And it's like, come on, you know what's a good thing.

I love that about them that they're always like unimpressed.

Yeah, not in a gas lighty mean way. It's just not their current.

Their world.

They I wonder if that relationship dynamic with her parents is one where when she does have a Q tip stuck in her ear, or when she is at rock bottom, they're very comfortable taking care of her, but they seem patently less comfortable when she's succeeding.

Yeah, exactly, but like, what else are they meant to do if she gets.

Maybe not say is that a good thing when she gets a TV deal? You don't have to be in that world to know that that's an impressive achievement.

I reckon, No, I reckon, Like my dad would say the same thing.

Individual relationships with so one of me. It struck me as an asymmetry and affection between her and her dad.

But I think it's interesting because the other piece to this that's interesting about her mom. So you know, she obviously has that piece where she talks about their relationships had difficult times, but she also makes it very clear that from the minute she was walking and talking, her mom was telling everyone how great she was, Like when she said her teachers were was a drama teacher or something who was like criticizing Lena, and her mum was

So I think, yeah, but that's because she's her creation.

Like when she's a kid in drama class and the drama teacher doesn't recognize Lena's like obvious genius. That's a reflection on Laurie Simmons. I mean, I don't want to criticize them as people. I'm just finding what's interesting is that she doesn't ever reckon or grapple with any of these questions around to what extent was it helpful that they were so homesh amesh Why did she go home

Yeah, And I found what was also missing for me is that phase in life where you go from thinking your parents are your heroes and they're perfect, to becoming aware that they're very human, and then as you get older, feeling a level of responsibility for them. And maybe it's just that she's younger than and I don't even mean that they're getting sick, but she's like a lack of sort of protection she's always she's quite babyish with them, and it's interesting her she had a sibling who transitioned

I sensed every word she wrote about Cyrus her brother was agon. I think that relationship has been through the wars.

Yeah, but I think that's clear right. She talks in the book about how much her brother's respect is all she wants. A lot of her relationships have all been about that, and I find I think it's interesting too to think that she did move to London so well as a mister she is with her family.

That's true.

She actually did when she was finally getting through this incredibly because she was so young when all this happened. She still was a kid, you know, And I think that in a way, the fact that she actually did remove herself from that family probably tells you a lot. It's so interesting memoir, how you there are some things in here that you think, as a parent, you'd be devastated to read, but you also know that broadly speaking, she's not going to throw them under any boses.

Let's talk about Jack and Jenny. Oh so good, Amelia in my Roman Empire hat for a long time has been the fallout of Jenny Connor and Lena Dunham's relationship, and it's always pained us deeply that we would never know why, because it seemed like there were a lot of NDAs and they just seem like they never talk about it, And here we are, Amelia or not to.

Explain, I got to get your So we've already disagreed about this because to me, she hates Jenny, and Jenny comes across as a gool.

But wait, you need to take people on the journey of who is Jenny Connor?

Who is Jenny Connor? So she What I didn't realize is that Jenny Connor came from a Hollywood family. Her father wrote for the Sopranos, Her uncle lived next door to Lena's family, which I thought was a crazy coincidence. And basically jud Apatow was close with Jenny, and when Tiny Furniture came out, jud was like, you're really talented and essentially broken a relationship between Jenny and Lena.

Because HBO gave her this deal. She was an executives, a director, writer, star, but she'd never done anything before really, and so they needed she needed a chaperone, essentially, and Jenny had executive produced on other shows and had more experience and was a lot older, So she was about thirty eight and Lena was twenty four when they met, and Lena chose her. So she interviewed a number of potential creative partners and she chose Jenny.

Jenny was giving Cheryl Samberg and Kellless People to me. Has anyone read Kellless People, Sarah Wynn William's book about working at Facebook. There's this kind of, I'm going to say it, a bit of a gen X woman vibe here, like there's no boundaries. There's a sort of like ambition and unbridled ambition. But maybe that's why I didn't. I came through thinking I was fully on Lina's side, but you were a bit more.

Oh, I on Jenny's version of this?

What did you think?

I feel like I could tell Jenny's version of its fame, So, em if you can explain how the relationship was depicted from Lina's point of view for people who perhaps haven't read the book.

So I remember when I learned about this relationship, and very much the headlines were Lina Jenny best friends, worked on girls together, and then they broke up and had a falling out, and everyone was just like, oh, it's because friends should never work on a show together. After reading this, I didn't realize how much of Jenny's life

I think that no, I don't think she was that at start. I think that it was a fast and furious friendship. It was very intimate. They both sort of accelerated to this level of intimacy where they were having sleepovers at each other's house and giving each other these gifts that were like engraved and like almost a love affair,

Be that totally could see how it can see that too. I could see how, and I am sure that it was in many ways when times were good, that was an even It felt at least like an even thing.

Yeah, but Lena.

The simplistic way of looking at it, right is Lena was the creative genius and Jenny was brought in to be the business babysitter. Right, so HBO had to deliver how to get their pound of flesh. Jenny knew how to do that, knew how to run a show. But Lena was obviously the creative genius who had made this amazing movie in their life. So that was the dynamic.

How is that not?

Because what I kept thinking, I mean, I found it really interesting and I could see how hurtful. It was when the business side of Jenny reared up and shocked Lena, like when she tells her to put weight on in the first season of.

Girls, put food in your mouth.

Just put food in your mouth, because that was really interesting. How they were saying, your body isn't interesting if it's skinny, like this show doesn't work if you're hot, is basically what they were saying. So get fatter so that this show becomes edgy again.

Eat some food.

I can see how much that must have That would have been devastating for Lena, for her bestie to suddenly rear up with the business brain, but also inevitable. How could it have gone any other way? And to be honest, by the time it all falls apart. I can't remember exactly what was happening in Lena's life, but there's a

I have a life.

That to me was the.

Kindest, just boundary, Like what else was she supposed to She would have by that time spent a decade being on the end of the phone for every one of Lena's dramas, and Lena's dramas are relentles.

Okay, I hear you on that, But as a counter argument, Jenny was the one. You can't have it both ways. You can't say this is just purely a professional arrange.

No, no, I don't think, she said.

When it comes to the pay issue, she insists that they go in there together, like, I agree with you, and then Lina ends up having to take a pay cut, presumably because Jenny's.

Like, but we're best buddies, we're best mates, Like you just can't have.

It both I agree it was toxic.

I think the whole situation was toxic, but I'm sure the manipulated each because that is shocking. By the end, when Jenny insists on pay parody with Lena, it is really shocking.

And the scenior described whole because I was really struck by that too, Because things kept happening to Lena, either illnesses or she'd slip and she'd break her elbow, and I could really relate to the key man pressure of Lena Dunham of being the star of this show but also the writer and just being the person essentially responsible. I mean, Jenny could have left, but Lena couldn't go anywhere. Like if Jenny got sick, the show could go on, but with Lena it couldn't. And there were hundreds of

I think I'm sort of playing a part here on behalf of millennials. I think she is an exhausting presence, and she knows that about herself too. She is very open about that. One interesting chapter we should touch on relates to the letter that Jenny and Lena put.

Out, The Big Bad. Yeah, the Big Bad.

So basically what happened was Lena was on day one recovering from her hysterectomy at home at her parents' house, and Jenny comes over, and the net result of what happens in that meeting is that the two of them release a joint statement saying that a professional associate of theirs named Murray.

Miller, one of the writers on one of.

The writers on Girls, was not guilty of an allegation that had been put forward that he had sexually assaulted someone. He denied the claims. They backed him up on that denial and said, essentially, mostly we should listen to women except when we know the man involved. It was devastating for both her brand. I'm sure it was also devastating in a personal sense, but that went to the heart of her brand because to say we believe all women except when we know the man that was so bad undercuts.

Years of work. What do you think am about how she spoke about that in the book, Well.

She spoke about it away where she was still going through and I think that was also time where her relationship with Jenny was still a bit fraught. So when she talked about doing the letter, it did sound like it was like a business deal that they were doing it together, not as like friends getting together to do it.

Because part of the pressure on Lena. Also to your point about Keyman Maya, is that every miss in Inverted Commas, every misstep, every issue, she cops it. She's the famous person and she's the one with the following and she's so they can publish Lenny and Mia.

Would relate to this very strongly.

They can publish Lenny letters about all kinds of things, and if it's a bit on the nose, it's not Jenny who's getting their reputational drag, it's Lena. So that relationship was always going to be so uneven, so complicated, so devastating. It's really at the end of that when they sort of break up in a therapist's office and then walk away on.

Seven seven minutes into a joint therapy.

And they never see each other again, is wild.

What do you think Jenny does now? You think her career is ruined, But it's a little tangent. She was brought in to do a similar thing on Nobody Wants This in season two because in season one. It was a similar situation with a creator writer, first time TV show run. And even though season one of Nobody Wants This was phenomenal was very well received, behind the scenes apparently it was chaos. So the network was like, we

It was really bad. It was really bad.

It Also, I didn't know what Jenny was doing anymore, so when I was reading the book, she was like a fictional character to me, and I was like, I just hope she's like taken all the money and she just lies on an island taking ayahuasca or something like. I just wanted her to like not have to deal with any more drama.

What about Jack jack Antonov, who is famous, Well, I first got to know him when he started dating Lena. That was before I was very into I got to know him as a as a person we're best Subsequently, that was before I was really into Taylor Swift, and so I subsequently understood the role that he played as a musician and a collaborative creative partner of Taylor Swift for many many years and many other artists as well. She talks about how they were very much the cool kids,

He dated scholleto Hudson in high school.

So you have to take that with a grain of salt. Yeah, and tell me how you think he was sort of portrayed in the book And what did you take away about their relationship. Is it what you thought it was at the time.

I don't know.

He was like guy in Fun. Like I remember the band Fun because it was huge when I was younger, and then they had like one big song and then they kind of disappeared.

We are young?

Were you we are?

It's terrible. Yeah, everybody's just turned off.

Yeah. I like that, thank you, thank you so much. So I remember him because he was like the guy in the white shirt playing the guitar, wearing the glasses. And then it came out that he was one who was writing all the songs. And when she describes their relationship, it does seem like a relationship that she needed to kind of like for a valid for validation, which I

She doesn't mention her by name.

She just describes her laugh and saying she's likening for having a quirky laugh and how like her. One thing she wishes is that they hope that she's not jealous of their relationship. It just seems to me that she just wanted that relationship to feel that validation, and because she got the hot guy, she was able to be like, yes, this is like such a.

Good point because remember they were breaking up. The thing that she's most worried about is not like I might lose the love of my life. It's but people thought that I was okay because I was with him and because he chose me. And what's it going to mean when he's no longer choosing me.

I feel like I owe him an apology because when we talked about this book before we'd read the book we did, we talked about it the Lord Power Corlis gossip. We talked about the Lord PowerPoint and the part that had been leaked from the book about how Lena, you know, the teenage pop star, was in the other room and it gave much sleasier vibes than it did when you actually in context.

I think he actually comes out of it pretty well. I'm going to.

Say, I think it seemed to me like a relationship. It was longer than it should have been, so much longer than it should have been. Both got what they needed out of it, to a point in that she had been in all the the awful relationships where she'd been literally, quite literally abused by dodgy.

Guys, and he was a good guy.

And she talks a lot about how he was very invested in seeing himself as a good guy too, but that also worked for her. They were the hot thing around town. It seemed very genuine best friends, but that it really overran its course. Would I don't imagine how difficult it would have been to be in a relationship with her for no fault of her own. But she's always sick, she's always in hospital, she's always working like that would have been a tough gig.

Yeah, And I think that I really appreciated the clear eyed way she described the relationship throughout the book in terms of her culpability is a strong word, but it wasn't he was a dirty dog. Like At one point she echoes exactly what you say, which is yet another reason why you should always write from a scar, not a wound. She says, we should have just broken up, but we were acting as though we had six kids and would lose all custody of them to the state

That's why I was going.

Because it felt like they just didn't see each other that often. Yeah, so they were living together, but they really were.

I think that's famous people Like one of my favorite scenes that I will always carry from this book is they've broken up and she's in London, and she's supposedly okay now, but she's at a party with Bruce Springsteen.

So this is so.

She had just I think maybe after she'd set herself on fire or something.

Anyway, she and Jack had just started talking again or something. But anyway, she knows that Jack knows Bruce Springsteen, and Bruce Springsteen leans across to her and says, you know, Jack's become a very important person to me, we really, you know, and Lean just goes off, well, I'm glad he's nice to you. I'm glad he's a very important person to you. Actually he's abuse of shit, who remember, And you're just like, oh my god. And I think Bruce says something really wise and really.

What it was, I don't but but I love that scene too. But you know what's unsaid and very interesting about that scene. She has a very good friend who was not mentioned in the book apart from in the acknowledgments, who was also very close to Jack Antonoff. I speak of Taylor Swift. So clearly, Bruce Springsteen was not the first mega famous person that she encountered in her life, who was very close with her exploit.

There wasn't a single mention of Taylor. No, why is that, Amelia.

I guess she probably just told her I don't want you to mention me, right, I.

Think it's just unspoken, particularly after the Black Lively shit. You do not like first rule of Bean Taylor Swift's friend. You don't talk about Bean Taylor Swift's friend.

You know what.

I think jack Antonoff has done well out of this though, because I was thinking about so. He's on a press tour of his own at the moment, because he's got a new album out with the band Bleachers, who I had never listened to, but now that I've gone down that rabbit hole from this, I've started listening to and they're amazing. So I'm like, well done. Jackie's got new fans from Lena's book. But also he has not mentioned her once. I listened to an hour and a half

And he must have said to them before that interview, don't bring her up. Mia, you said something really interesting about we were talking about the fact that she does not hold back from criticizing Journey, but she does hold back from criticizing Jack, and you had a theory as to why.

I can't remember what it was.

The theory was that she's already worked all of that out in her TV show.

Oh of course, So yes, she had her revenge on Jack when she made too much the Megan Stalter which was a little bit patchy, but thought it was very well written. But there's one sort of bottle episode that goes back in time and looks at the start of her relationship sorry Megan Stalter, who's a bit of a stand in for and the relationship with her boyfriend, and then he starts dating this much younger woman. And the actor she chose to play this version of Jack looked a lot like him, and.

Emily Rattakowski looks not.

Unlike Megan qually, and she basically made it seem like he was a gas lighting toxic. All these awful things we haven't touched on. Adam Driver and someone else that she is not completely unflinching about, but is not judgmental. Over there's been a lot of I thought this might

This is what I liked about the book because like, we have all these complicated relationships, particularly at that age, with the kind of world that they're in, that yeah, he behaved really badly, but she was not about she was crossing boundaries all the time too. There would have been no boundaries on that.

Sete best friends in the cast.

Her and Adam are obviously sort of having the bit of a dance with their sexual tension. The only reason they don't consummate that is actually because she decides not to. She doesn't answer the door on that night that he comes calling. And I think it was obviously very complicated.

Everyone's talking about the chair. That wasn't even the worst thing in the book for me. It was remember when she was talking about that sex scene where she was like, there was before we had intimacy coordinators, so she because of the director, she had to tell everyone what to do, and she was describing the sex scene that she was having with him, and she's like, you do this, and then you flip me, and then you do this, and then you and then it's over, and then.

He kind of took creative direction. That's true.

I'm like, that would have been such a scary thing to go through, especially being the first time naked on camera as a young woman. And she explained how at the end she was just so shell shocked that the only reassurance she had was the crew just started laughing and were like, that's great, and she just had no way. She completely blanked from that moment, had no idea what had happened because she wasn't expecting it at all.

But I think, Holly, one thing you just said, I really want to draw out where you said. She just allows for complexity. It's why she's such a like enduring artist. Because the thing that happened with Adam last time she saw Adam was when he kissed her on the cheek and said I'll always love you, and then they never saw each other again.

On the last day, I fielm me, Yeah.

It gave me goosebumps because it's just like you do have these like confusing relationships where if you put it all down on paper, it might look one way, but then you feel like for different ways. Sometimes you feel up, sometimes you feel down. And I love that she is in a culture where we always want to reduce everything to a label, like Adam is a complicated figure and I just think that's why she's so fascinating, because she doesn't try and label things.

I just want to end by talking about chronic illness. I mean, I knew she'd written and spoken about having endometriosis. She's written beautifully about her hysterectomy and her decision to

Then just incredible that she achieved so much and was working through so hard through all of that. Whether that should be incredible or not, I guess she would probably argue with that, but also what was really and I think a lot of people who live with chronic illness or have loved ones to do would recognize this, even though on a very different scale. Because one of the things I also loved about this book is just the sort of pervy factor of seeing the lives of the

By room service on a silver train.

It's just like this very bizarre world where you've got everything but your body is still betraying.

Chop it out to hire a plane or something.

And then poor old Jack. It's like I just wanted Ald and it's just I don't know.

I found that's all so beautifully depicted and what I wanted. And I don't know if this is true or not, but what I wanted for her at the end of the memoir is a happy not ending, but a happy resting point. And I feel like you kind of get it London, the new husband, the acceptance of her sick body and what it can do and what it can't, and I felt like she's happy.

Did we think that?

Yeah?

I think like I would like a part two memoir.

I reckon you'll get it in another Yeah.

I don't know. I feel like for a memoir to be good, there has to be complexity and challenges and complications and triumphinger over tragedy and hardships. And I feel like the tumultuous nature of the last sort of fifteen years of her life, I don't know if that's going to be repeated, and you wouldn't want that to be repeated.

Yeah, I'm glad that she felt able to be so honest with us all after being through so much shit and having so many people assume the worst of her. I'm just grateful that she put it all down.

So loud as We very much recommend this book, whether Elena found or not, whether you don't even know who she is. And I've gone back and started watching Girls again because I realized, is it good? I'm loving it in the midst of all the drama, because like I also just got irritated by the whole leanness of it, and I stopped watching the show, did you? Yeah? And