You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twelfth of June.
I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm MEA Friedman.
And I'm m Vernam filling in for Jesse today. You might have heard me over on our daily entertainment podcast A spill.
An on today's show. Because Jesse is away and you're here, am, I am taking the opportunity to talk about royals.
You roll us over.
Welcome to my roundup that includes a wedding, a nasty divorce, and a whole new kategait. Also the gray Rock theory that might just be the answer for getting through conversations with difficult people, and the return of the latsmag But first, Mia Friedman.
In case you missed it, there's a really awful story around today about fifty female students from Bacchus Marsh Grammar, which is a high school norwest of Melbourne, have reported fake nude images of them circulating online that have been made with AI. So they're explicit images, but with the faces of girls from the school. A teenager has been arrested,
a teenage boy and since released. After these images of girls, who were thought to be in years nine to twelve were circulated through the school and presumably outsided as well. The principle of the school, Andrew Neil, has released a statement. He has said it's appalling. It is something that strikes to the heart of students, particularly girls growing.
Up at this age.
They should be able to learn and go about their business without this kind of nonsense. These things are not funny, They are basically vicious and therefore they should be dealt with appropriately. It's behavior that needs to be dealt with in as firm a way as possible.
Now.
Victorian police are continuing to investigate this matter, but I think this is just really the start of what we're going to see because we've spoken before about celebrities like Taylor Swift who have had pornographic images made of her a fake using AI. Back in the olden days, I had someone when I was a magazine editor who cut out images of naked women and photos of my head and did it making a bit of a collage and sent it to me, which I had to go to
the police. So I guess terrible people have been doing this since the beginning of time, but now it's just so easy.
It's my biggest fear having my nudes leaked, and the fact that they can still be leaked even though they're not me but looks like me, because these day images look so real. That is just beyond And it's these young girls, like these are children that it's happening to.
I think the e Safety Commissioner was talking about it today and saying, how this is obviously the beginning of this technology, as you've said me, so the law has to figure out how to handle it because they're not pictures that have been stolen of somebody. They've been entirely created,
so they're fake. But as she was saying, she's saying, this is going to have tragic consequences one day, because it will happen to someone who's got such vulnerable mental health that it'll go the way that a lot of these awful online bullying campaigns go, and we'll lose people, and they've got to figure out how to handle it.
I don't think you can, like, how do you stop people from being dickheads.
One of the ways you can stop children from being dickheads is making sure that it is incredibly clear how serious it is and what serious consequences there will be, because I think if it's a bit of lolls and you might just get a slap on the wrist and are telling off, that's a completely different ballgame to if criminal charges might be brought.
Tell you how, it's time for Holly's royal roundup now, As.
I said, So, Jesse's off in Ireland or somewhere somewhere glamorous. Actually, I saw her at a castle, so maybe she's changing her mind a princess. Yes, maybe she's changing her mind about how she feels about royal stories. Anyway, So I bribed me or and em in our meeting to let me deliver a quick royal roundup. And when Jesse gets back, I'm just going to tell her it's a regular now. Yeah, that's just the way it rolls.
I'll back here.
So three things, are you ready? Yes? Number one? Four hundred people watched a very very posh man called Huey get married on Saturday. He's the Duke of Westminster and he's only thirty three. His calculated wealth is just under nine billion pounds, even though he doesn't have a job that interesting, isn't Britain great. I'm sure he has a job managing all his money, maybe just sitting in one of his castles, like piling it up into really neat
little piles. But anyway, I digress. He married a woman called Olivia Henson who did used to have a job. She was an account manager and eco importer, but she just gave it up to focus on being the Duchess of Westminster. Yeah, it's a lot of work, it is, so the money doesn't just stack itself anyway. Huey is bestie's with both Prince William and Prince Harry. Now he's closer to Prince Harry's age, so he might be a
bit tired of with him. But he is so in a circle that he's the godfather to both William's son George and Harry's son Archie, and so in a circle that Prince William, who is the heir to the throne, was just a lowly usher at the wedding.
There were two things about this wedding that caught my eye. One was the hideous shoes that the bride was wearing They were blue suede shoes, but they were really like clumpy, flatform platform, ugly blue shoes. And as she walked, she was wearing a beautiful dress and as she walked you could see the ugly shoes. Anyway, I did.
It was an O to Elvis. You don't know.
I thought she was trying to be cool. Wrong shoe theory.
Well, it's the something blue, something borrowed, whatever. But wrong shoe. Oh, wrong shoe theory. Yeah, No, I think we need to draw a line when it comes to weddings. But I also loved this bit about Prince William being in usher. Does that when he had to show people to their seats and handout programs.
Yeah, and I had to know who they were. He had to know who they were. He had a cheat sheet and he was like.
Oh yes, Duke of so and so. I love that.
Anyway, the reason everybody got excited about this wedding, apart from the fact that you know, richest man in Britain all the rest of it, an eligible bachelor blah blah blah and really hot really yeah ooh, it's because obviously Hughie had to pick between Harry and William his two besties about which one could and he chose William, which maybe you would because he's the heir to the throne and Harry has a deal with Netflix, But now you know.
That he chose. Was Harry actually invited.
Rumors on the Insiders Royal Insiders say that Harry and Meghan were invited but tactfully decided not to come because if you believe that side of the story, they didn't want to pull focus, particularly from Olivia and her shoes.
Well, I also think that William had homeground advantage. I mean, he was there, and also he's going to be the king, so but I think it's important to note that they were both invited and that William was the one.
Who won, because I think we're at the point where they cannot be not the same wedding together. They might drink too many champagnes, pull off their ties and wrestle on the floor, and it has happened before.
And who's hold is that? It's only one of them wrote a book, that's true, exposing all the secrets of the other.
But it's elder boy privilege. The other four, like elder siblings always get privileged.
Like my kids, whoever wasn't a dick.
No, it's it's the elder sibling. Like at my cousin's wedding, she wanted a bridesmaid from each family, and because I'm older than my sister, I got chosen from my family. So second siblings syndrome. I just have to deal.
That was at the end of the wedding story.
That's the end of the wedding.
She looks a lot like Kate.
Oh, she looks exactly like Kate.
I got to Kate's school.
Everyone's saying she followed a Kate pass because in some ways it would be better to marry the Duke of Westminster than it would be to marry the Prince of Wales. Less scrutiny, you know, more money, all the rest of it.
You know how the Kardashians are like a certain aesthetic among a certain group of women. Is there are the same aesthetic among posh English people? Because remember the woman that Prince William was rumored to be having an affair with, whose name I can't pronounce some things. Ye, she looked exactly like Kate too. So it's kind of like a very outdoorsy, long, glossy hair, wholesome wholesome. Yes, it's slim, wholesome, very.
Skinny, very respectable. So yes, she followed the Kate playbooks. She went to the same school as Kate. She then went to a UNI that isn't like Oxford or Cambridge, like an intimidating UNI, but like a good, fancy UNI. She went to Trinity in Ireland, which is where Normal People was filmed, and everyone was like, who's going to marry him? Who's going to marry him? And apparently she came from nowhere, Tatler wrote, she flew like a night owl,
silently into the most coveted bedroom in Britain. She cut off as well, she's pushed, but she's not titled. But she's from good stock.
She's not a lady.
I've certainly just got a serious upgrade, like in terms of lifestyle.
It's like they all learned from Kate's mum, like how to be queen, and they're like, how to be Kate.
So she's been Kate's perhaps better than Kate. Speaking of Kate, we have learned nothing. Pulling out my wagging finger. Several media organizations, including The Cut and now me, although I'm not a very organized organization for.
Her own organization, wain Wright Organizations.
I noticed that Kate Watch has been somewhat reinstated since it's been three months that we found out that Kate was undergoing cancer treatment. And as we know, the internet resets its memory after three months and everything that went before is wiped and all is new again. She did not attend something she was meant to attend. She didn't go to the wedding for starters, which is not that surprising, and apparently William didn't really go to the party, but
also something military. She is the honorary colonel of the Irish Guards, which is one of the cool things.
Actual, How you say that word? I was reading it in the script and I couldn't figure it out. Colonel.
You don't know how to say colonel?
What I do just learn?
I guess you wouldn't say it. A lot said you didn't have Colonel Sanders, who is the dude from Kentucky Fried Chicken.
He's just the.
Dude on Kentucky Fried Chicken. To me, Kate is a colonel of the Irish Guards, and she's like a corn colonel. She's meant to be part of a big MARCHI festival of soldiers in hats this week called the Trooping of the Collar. She'd usually be there inspecting them. She wasn't, of course, and she sent a letter saying she was really sorry she couldn't be there, and it sparked a whole new round of like, when's she going to come? When are we going to see her again? When she's
coming back to work? And a story this week about how she's just promoted her stylist to be her new top assistant, and so everyone's like, oh, preparation for her coming back, And I'm like, people, have we learned nothing?
No, No, I'm going to push back on you there, Harley dot com. Because when there's someone you know and we don't know her but we know of her, and someone who's a public figure and they're going through something tough.
You want to check in. This one is really good at you bringing it home with some more really good information about really silly rich people. The Earl Spencer that is Princess Diana's brother, Charles. He has burnt into Generation x's memory as the guy who made the speech at her funeral where he ripped the royal family a new one right.
But has since been revealed to be a bit of a dick.
Oh he's a massive dick by the Crown Moss disappointing.
He is getting his third divorce and he's hired the same divorce lawyer who represented Charles when he divorced Diana. She is known as a demon the She's widely regarded to be the reason why Anna lost her title. Her hr h Right she is and I love this so much. Right, you will love her. In fact, you'll love her so much. I'm going to show you a picture of her. I feel like this is a betrayal. This is it, right? I mean, can you imagine You're like, well, they she
did a right number on my sister. This woman, I want her too. She is called Baroness Shackleton of Belgravier.
I love that.
And she does all the royal divorces. So she represented Charles, she represented Andrew. She's also represented Paul McCartney, Madonna and Liam Gallagha.
She sounds like a Harry Potter.
You will love her. She's wearing oh my god, she looks amazing MEA's jacket.
She's wearing like a military jacks, scarves and a hat. She's also terrifying.
She has a look on her face, that is like, fuck with me.
Not when I hear the word baroness, that's exactly what I think of.
And Belgravier, which is the poshest bit of London, can't even set foot in there unless you're worth a bajillion dollars. So she Charles has just hired her to get rid of his third wife. I agree. I think it's a betrayal, but fun anyway. Now you're up to date with a lot of the meaningless information about people who have too much money and yet live rent free. In my mind, are we betting this segment in? Are we?
Is it coming back? I'm down down to as we've established.
The notion that you have to forgive in order to move on in your life. That's outdated. Therapy, gray rocking and going no contact is literally the only way to avoid the manipulation all of it.
Have you heard of the gray rock theory?
No?
Okay?
Well? New York Times author Christina Karen wants you to know what it is. So imagine there's a small gray rock in your hand. It's a bit boring, a bit dull. It looks the same on all sides. Are you really bored right now?
Yeah?
That's the whole point. I've got you, I've got you. So there's a theory that if you adopt the qualities of a gray rock, then you will be able to repel the argumentative and antagonistic people in your life who thrive off conflict.
Oh I do know this, So make it like a rock.
Like a rock.
So the idea of being a gray rock is to not kind of like push people away from you. You're still kind of engaging in a conversation, but you're not oversharing because when you overshare to the wrong people, they use that information against you.
So if you ask Siri to show you the opposite of me in any conversation, they will show you a gray rock. And that's why I'm so captivated by this technique, because the gray rock technique is something that I really feel like I need to master, particularly in this age of social media, particularly currently, when there's so many people screaming so many things. Arguing with them just never works, It just never works. And so I've taken this approach
with trolls for a really long time. Be a gray rock. It's a little bit like Michelle Obama, when they go low.
You go high.
Yeah, go as high as a gray rock, except they sink to the bottom of the thing. I've actually got a friend she'd be listening to this. In fact, hell her a gray rock friend who is without knowing this was what it's called, is what she's employing in like, she's going through a really awful breakup, marriage breakup. Her whole strategy is do less, do not engage yes, because apparently, like psychopaths and narcissists are attracted to drama and they
can't stand being bored. So if you refuse to feed them what they want, yes, like in terms of text messages, you know, if they want to get into a fight on text messages or something, then being very very calm and very boring and very straight and only engaging with like factual exchange and everything is a very effective strategy. And I would love to be more gray rock to me because one thing that I've realized, I think I'll can remember we talked about this on the show or Not.
Soft power is about saying less, not more. I have always and I think women are, without wanting to just generalize enormously, we rush to feel silences. Yes, we justify ourselves. We say I'd like that but is this and this and this and this and this are all the reasons why I shouldn't get it, whereas being a gray rock is more like I'm just going to say what I need and then I'm going to curl up in a little gray ball.
Well, what I like is that there isn't curling up in the gray rock.
It's not being a gray feather, that's true, or be like a let yourself be kiy.
The technique is not don't be a gray piece of paper, don't be a gray feather. Don't like just blow with the wind and let the other person blow you over stand your ground, but just be boring and take the wind out of their sails by being boring?
Do you reckon that? This is the technique that you might use even by accept when you don't want to talk about something like how do you engage if someone wants to engage you in a conversation that you do not want to be engaged.
I'm a big yapper like I cannot ever be a gray rock. I want to be, but I actually get offended when someone's gray rocking me because I'm not there to argue with them, which I think that article was speculating that people just want to argue. I just love a gossip, sesshon. I just want all the information. And I've been gray rocked by a friend, which I feel is so annoying in a way where I would like ask about her life, like how's your partner? And then
she doesn't want to give me too much information. And I don't see her as like gray rocking, as in like she's being dull and boring. I see that as she doesn't trust me enough to talk more about her life.
She probably doesn't, so it's a full of disengagement.
I do this like if there's something I really don't want to talk about, Like, for example, at the moment in my life, my least favorite question in the entire world is how's the book going? Right? If somebody asked me that fucking question just because it's difficult, I mean, rewrites, it's hard, Like I just I don't want to talk about it.
I asked her that in the kitchen at work, and she gray robed me.
I did, And I do it with my friends and sometimes they get upset. They'll be like, how's the book going? That's just an example.
That's my curse with all of your books, and pretty much most of the authors I know, they gray rock that question, how's the book? And I don't know why.
It's because this is how it goes. If I don't write so and I do this, I don't just do this with you me or I do it with everything and not always, but when you're at these tricky periods that you're at, sometimes I'll just say I don't want to talk about it, right. But the thing is is if you say I don't want to talk about it, it sounds like there's a big story. So then your friend wants to open that door. Oh, why what's going on?
And they keep pushing because like the example that you just gave, they probably think I'm being either rude or withholding. There's really good gossip there, but I just don't want to talk about it because I'm figuring it out because I just don't want to talk about it, and I don't have to. But there's no law that says I have to talk about things.
I remember, I don't know you are paid to be in a podcast.
Call you in a particularly bad time where I asked, how's your book and you just said nope, And I.
Was like, I got it. Shut down.
Shut down that was like hardcore, that was a cold that wasn't just a gray rock? So is that rude?
Is there a way to shut down a conversation you don't want to have that isn't rude? Is gray rocking always rude?
I think you saying I don't want to talk about it is better than trying to gray rock someone and like shifting the conversation. But yeah, there's also there's also the idea of soft gray rocking, where you like keep having the conversation, but you're not giving them the answer
they want. So a TikTok gave an example of like if you're looking for a job, and instead of saying to your friend it's really hard to find a job, you say, I'm networking right now, still searching, so you're not going too deep into the emotion factor.
I agree.
So I think that the point of gray rocking is to not invite further questions or speculations. So I think instead of saying I don't want to talk about it for the reasons that you just said, you should just say get there. Yeah, And because that's like a boring thing, like how is your weekend? Not that that's just a boring answer, that's gray Rock, instead of going.
Oh, I don't want to talk about it because that's not actually gray Rock. That's not gray Rock. I'm being a bit of a drama queen.
Well, you're not intentionally being a drama queen. You're probably being really honest because you don't.
Want to put in that emotion in there so they know how you feel. Yeah, gray Rock.
Is boring, and yet it knows where it stands. So if someone tries to engage you in a conversation about politics, you just say like a platitude, Yeah, God, what a time, or like oh it's so difficult, isn't it? And it's not what they want. And so what they'll do is that they're looking for someone to match their level of intensity and their level of passion and engagement. And if you don't offer that to them, they'll go find someone else who will. That's how it gets you out of it.
That's smart. Okay. I think I need to adopt this.
Because it's like being a smart target. It's making yourself a really small target. If I say how's the book and you go get there, there's nothing left to say.
Yeah, I'm so gonna say that yeah. From now on, in my mind, all I'm going to think is gray rock, gray rock, but not like gray rock that I'm throwing it at you, like, don't want to talk about it. It's just gray rock.
Like out louders tell us what your gray rock phrases are. It's like we need to build a tool kit, neit, a bible of phrases that you can throw out there, like what a time?
And I have to practice saying it without sounding sarcastic as well.
Exactly, you have to deliver it in a really really neutral, monotone way. How do you do it verbally versus in a text message? Sometimes I find the text message version of gray rock could be an emoji, sometimes just a thumbs up or just a like a shocked face is a version of a gray rock because it's like it's a blank canvas, really, but it just says yep, I hear you. Nothing to add.
It's interesting, isn't it that we think it's rude to not jump in and get with everybody when actually you don't know everybody.
All your explanations, I think it depends on the person.
That's what Princess Kate is. She's gray rocking. Yes, she's trying.
It's me.
I'm a gray Rock.
Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mom and Me Are Out Loud just for Mom and Mia subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of Out Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.
Everything old is new again. First, it was ballet flats that came back. Then low rise jeans, although they seem to have disappeared again thank god, because everybody said get stuffed. Now it's the turn of lads mags to make a resurgence with the news that Loaded magazine is coming back. In the UK, there was a headline that caught out behind this week that said Loaded Magazine the saddest relaunch in history or a safe space for middle aged men.
If you don't remember what Loaded magazine was, you'll know the genre of magazine that it.
Was part of.
They were huge worldwide back in the nineties and early two thousands, before anyone knew what sexism was or that telling a woman she had nice chits is not a great thing to do at work. There was the Australian version, which.
Was called Ralph.
Remember Ralph, no I don't I worked.
In that, No, you wouldn't. I worked in the same magazine company as Ralph, and there were some great journalists who used to write for Ralph. There was FHM, and of course Loaded. They were kind of like Playboy or Penthouse, but without actual new nudity. Like the closest I would say is that they were like Cosmo or Cleo, but for men, except they also had women on the cover,
which was weird. Isn't not funny how women's magazines had women on the cover and men's magazines had women on the cover as well.
Sometimes they had a car, which is kind of.
No, they didn't, not those lads' mags because it was all about being a lad. Can you explain what.
A ladd in Britain actually when Loaded first launched, And it's hard to overstate the cultural shift that magazine represented. Magazine couldn't affect culture in that way now, there's just no way, you know, but it really it was a new genre. It was an entirely new genre. They did used to have men on the cover, but in a very stylish, stylized way, and then they'd also have women, and then as it evolved, it just turned into women
but Loaded. When it launched, it said the editor was this guy called James Brown who became like an absolute celebrity. And he said, Loaded is a new magazine dedicated to life, liberty, and the pursuit of sex, drink, football and less serious matters. Loaded his music, film, relationships, humor, travel sport, hard news and popular culture. Loaded his clubbing, drinking, eating, playing and eating. Loaded is for the man who believes he can do
anything if only he wasn't hungover. So you get the vibe. This is the hard partying nineties, and it was hard partying in those days. And it was like, we are blokes who like we might like a smart political article, and actually politicians used to try and get interviewed in these magazines because they were so influential. But we also want to look at a woman in arundes and really famous women would go unloaded in those days. They weren't like naked naked, but they were very male gayzy to use me.
So they would be in like lingerie or like tiny little denim cutoffs, like very sexy, or like swimsuits that kind of thing.
So it's probably not a thing like well, different thing.
There was like Playboy in Penthouse and those magazines, but this didn't have actual nudity. It was like it had a little bit of clothes, but it was the same sort of objectifying cultural attitude to women that women are decorative, women are there to be ogled at and looked at, and so now it's coming back because that's what we want. But here's the twist. It has a female editor. The
magazine's executive editor is a woman named Danny Levy. She's not a journalist, so she's a fitness influencer, no shade, and she said, our goal is to bring back all of those things that thirty five to fifty five year old men are being cheated out of by society being able to ogle beautiful women like is Hurly, Melinda Messenger or Pamela Anderson. So you can see this is appealing to the reader of these mags who were in their twenties and thirties or even teens back then and are
now a bit older than that. She went on to say, the original loaded audience who are now living happily at home with their wife and kids, but still reminisce about their nights spent clubbing until three am, drinking one dollar shots with a bedroom covered in posters of half naked women. Yes, those were good old days, Holly, Should you.
Live with a man in that?
DEVI?
It's so true? What should we do about the fact that men have lost the right to ogil innocently? Is there a march we could go on? Can we contribute to a gofund me?
Do we buy all the copies and then keeping mouth?
Won't somebody think of the poor middle aged men.
Who come out and I feel so sorry for them.
There was a place they could go to look at naked women and the privacy of their own home. I don't think anyone thinks this relaunch is going to work because of the Internet. But what's really interesting when you dig into what they're talking about here, and so it's kind of doing this like we're pushing back against political correctness. But this woman has also said that she wants loaded to be a safe space, which is a very millennial term for men who are like scared and repulsed by
the extremity of porn online. Yeah, but want to look at a nice pair of boobs. They're obviously deciding that there is a gap in the market for that. I don't think there is a gap in the market for that, because aren't we surrounded by that a lot of the time.
Well that's called Instagram. Yeah, I'm going to defend this idea because I was thinking about it. How are those magazines different to the way women's magazines and girls magazines like Dolly and Cleo and Cosmo used to objectify men Like I know, we didn't have them on the cover, but there were pinups of hot teenage with their shirts off. Cleo had Australia's fifty most eligible bachelors every year the Male Centerfold. That desire shouldn't be villified, or we shouldn't
shame people for it. So where can people do that in a way that's not creepy?
Well, everywhere anywhere on the internet where there are pictures of women. What are things I find really interesting about this because really, if you track the history of those magazines, and I was of the age as you were, me aware and particularly in Britain just before I left to come to Australia, this was the culture and women were
part of it, right. We were quite convinced that this was like quite revolutionary and cool and girls could be lads too because women could go out drinking as well and have fun with the boys. And we didn't hate those magazines in the way that we had come to understand that Playboy and Penthouse and stuff was sexist, that the Benny Hill Show was sexist. You know that page three we literally had in the newspaper in Britain. You opened it on page three, there was a picture of
a topless woman, that that was sexist. This was like the next wave, and I thought we were in on the joke. But what happened, perhaps inevitably, as with all cultural shifts, is it got polluted and poisoned and became very clear eight years later or whatever, that we weren't in on the joke, and that we were every bit as much commodified and objectified by it as all those other things.
Right.
The reason that they stopped selling, though, is because of the Internet. That's really why they stopped selling. It's not like men suddenly went I don't want to look at naked women anymore. It's that they went, there's somewhere I can do that for free.
So what about this idea? And I'm interested to hear what you think about this being a middle ground, because of course you could look at all of these women. You could look at porn. You could look at all of that for free on the internet. But what about what Holly said about how there are some guys who might want to look at attractive women, but they don't want to be creepy. They've got problems with porn. They
don't want to watch porn. It's creepy if they're just on Instagram following a whole lot of fitness influences and bikini models. So where do they go.
I'm just really confused on why these men staring at these photos of women who are like semi clothed. What goes through their heads that's different to what goes through their heads when they're watching porn. Like, I don't understand where the difference happens, because it's still like salacious. It's still like photos that they're ashamed to be looking at.
Why do they have to be ashamed? Like why is admiring someone of the opposite sex?
But are they admiring it? They're like oo ogling.
Okay, So when photos are on the Daily Mail of Chris Hemsworth on the set of a movie or surfing with his shirt off, and women are like, oh, look at him or go to a bachelorette party. Yeah, exactly, and they are male strippers or they go to a club or whatever. That seems to be okay.
I don't think where like looking at Chris Hemsworth and then just staring at him and staring at his abs and thinking about him and thinking about having sex, and then downloading the photo or buying a magazine just to look at him.
You don't know. So when we had women's magazines in the nineties and way before the nineties and into the early two thousands, the idea of objectifying men was so subversive that that is what we did. So there were posters of hot guys. I mean, when girls grow up, they have guys celebrity.
It's different to having like model like guys. Like I would have posters of Jesse McCartney on my wall, but it was because I was like, that's going to be my future husband, not because he was a sexy man that I was like.
And you didn't want to just get to know his personality? I did, Yeah, but come on, you're a horny.
Little Teenager's aney teenager? But looking at him, But I wouldn't be like ogling him and I wouldn't be buying magazines that were just of like hot men to look at.
I think that's not the only thing that's in these magazines to be.
Well, no, so, I mean the thing about these magazines is that, And certainly at the beginning, I don't think its a magazine. Is that's true? I don't.
I don't get it.
You know how there's that cliche that, oh, men, I used to buy Playboy for the articles, right, that's like a thing that people say. And the thing is is there was an element of that that's true. There was a time in the sixties and seventies and stuff where the best journalists in the world wrote for those magazines next to the pictures of the naked ladies, right yeah. And then in the nineties that's kind of what happened
in the Best of these Lads mags. So the loaded ralph irreverent, funny, smart journalism, as I say, as it kind of descended into a cost cutting let's just say what it is and do away with the articles. That changed. But the idea was then I suppose that you know, how we say about women, we can be interested in, you know, serious things and silly things. We can be interested in lipstick and politics whatever. That was basically the
premise of these magazines. Men could be interested in reading an interview with the Prime Minister and want to look at a picture of a woman with her tits out and at the time looking at a woman a picture of a woman with the tits out. If you were doing it with like this sort of slightly ironic raised eyebrow that these magazines pretended they had was like fine, Where that led us? They were also in humor, they were funny, like the best of them were very very funny.
Where that led us though, And that's what I mean when I say I feel like we were all sold a big lie. There is Where it led us, though, was to just the same objectified place that we started in.
Right.
I don't think you can make the comparison with men with their shirts off in girls magazines. I just don't, because I just think the politics, the history, all of the cultural context of that doesn't work.
Right.
I just don't think it does.
No, no, no, But once said, because all I was comparing is that there will always be an innate human desire to look at people that you want to have sex with.
And I think that that I mean of course there is right, And I think what's interesting is what's coming through and what am saying, I don't want to misrepresent you, is that we should all at least pretend that that's not what we want to do. We don't want to look at pictures of beautiful people, Whereas what I think is actually what's happened is people will always want to do that and they've just found another way to do
it that's free. And the notion that men need permission to ogle women and that's what this magazine is aiming to give them back. That's what she's saying, like, we're giving it back to you, the permission to have a more innocent, sort of dopamine hit of nudity. Because she was saying, you know, they've been turned off by the extreme nature of porn. Well a, i'd be like, how they like, I hope so, But I don't know that
that's true. But like, I think it's a flawed business model because I don't think that men have stopped looking at naked women, you know what I mean, I just don't.
Yeah, I don't think it's going to work either. But all magazines ever were whoever they were for is curation of content, and so this is saying that we will curate content, and we'll put things about alcohol, and will put things. It's talking to a nostalgia in a group of men who were gen X men.
And it's true that it was more socially acceptable. So like if you started dating a guy in the nineties and you went round to his house and he had a copy of Loaded on the table, you wouldn't necessarily think he's a disgusting purv.
You just mean, like, oh, there must be a great on climate change in there.
Whereas if it was a proper hardcore porn mag and it was out on the table, that's a different thing, you know what I mean, that's the veneer of respectability. So I guess the differentiation there now is it's a bit like looking at a woman in a bikini on Instagram, which we all know that some only fans, I guess is a very obvious place for this, right, Just looking at a woman in a bikini is exciting. Is that a different line if they're actually looking at porn? What's
your position on that? That's what this differentiation is supposed to be.
I think it's the same. I actually think sometimes it's worse because when you're looking on Instagram at a person, you know that's a real life person, and you know maybe they're posting it to get heaps of life and to get heaps of DMS. You also know they're posting it because they are a person who just wants to post a bikini pig and look good in it. And then you like scroll down and you see a fire emoji that's ridden by your boyfriend, and it's embarrassing more
than anything, it's more embarrassing. It's more embarrassing knowing that the rest of the world can see your partner engaging in this type of content.
Yeah, so it's a way for men to there's plausible deniability, right because it's like I've bought Loaded magazine. I bought it for the articles, Like you could ostensibly say that, whereas if you've just got you just watching porn or you're just liking some fitness model's photo, that is more personal and that is more specific.
But you can't police what people think and what they want to look at because if he's engaging with that photo, so say he's looking at hot bikini model on Instagram he likes or fire emoges it he's leaving a breadcrumb trail like of what he's into, but you can't police him from actually just looking at that and like having the thoughts he wants to have in his head. And
one of the things I worry about. I don't want to sound like, you know, that's not my bag to be all like, oh PC gone mad, But I'm like, we can't be in such a puritanical place where we literally don't think people should be allowed to look at other people.
And that's what I was trying to say. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah?
Yeah, how many times have you been in love? Out louders? How many times? Do you've been in love?
Him?
Too many times? I don't even know what love is really. Maybe I'm confused. I should have been an honest conversation.
That's interesting.
I've been in love a few times. I think I say that on this because is it three?
Have you been in love three times? On yesterday's episode, Holly and I talked about how many times you've been in love? It was very interesting conversation I learned about you, hollywayen Right. I think that what you feel is kind of a little bit different, maybe with each person or maybe it's just then how you look at it in hindsight, how you think, Oh I thought it was love, but actually it was just lust. Or I thought it was love,
but actually we should have just been friends. Or I don't believe that you just have one love in your life. I think that you can have lots.
I've been in love a few times for sure. This is why I think. You know, we always talk about Jay Lower, Yes, let's talk about her again. Like she says herself in that movie that like she's addicted to love. She means that first part. That's what she means.
What do they call it? Liminence?
Yeah, liminence, limerence. It's that first part of love where you're obsessed.
A link to that episode will be the show notes. You can listen right now.
And if you are looking for other things to listen to. On our other shows this week, on our cheating shows, when We're Cheating, on When We're Out Loud on Mid this week, I had a conversation about bodies, which is
we're not allowed to talk about it. I know, we broke the taboos on Mid this week, and I have a conversation with Helen Thorne, who's this comedian Ouzsie, comedian who lives in London, and part of her stick is that she and her comedy partner as old A, are women since you know, thirties forties, worn these tight lamee like catsuits on stage and they were both very like ordinarily shaped. Let's just say, you know, like just not supermodels and so.
Bit Celeste Barber. Yeah.
So the body confidence that it takes to do that no matter what shape you are, is one thing. But then Helen went through this massive sort of reckoning pre COVID where she found out her spitald was cheating on her, her marriage fell apart, she went into lockdown, she fell into a debauch hole, as she tells lots of funny stories about, and then she great rebuilt her relations with her body. It's a really good, funny conversation. It's hilarious.
Yeah, such a good episode. Got I'm enjoying your conversations on that show on No Filter this week. Oh I had speaking of cheating, I had a fascinating conversation. And I don't usually get to say I had an exclusive. I didn't mean for it to be one. Sam and Nia Rata were in that Ashley Madison documentary. They were a couple who were very Christian. They were family like YouTubers, and his name was leaked in the Ashley Madison data leak.
It came out that he had didn't actually have an affair via Ashley Madison because all the women on that website were actually Botts, but he had been unfaithful over a really long period of time with lots of different women in lots of different ways. Their story was told a little bit in the documentary, but I was interested, so we reached out and had an amazing interview. They were in their bedroom, side by side. There was this
big thunderstorm in the background. We're going to be talking about it more on Friday because there has been a massive reaction to it in a way that I didn't expect. People are furious, furious, furious, So we'll put a link in the show notes to mid and to No Filter, don't forget to listen on Friday when we'll be talking about it more in depth. What about you, I, What have you been doing this week?
One of my favorite topics next week was talking about Sabrina Carpenter. She's just released a new song.
I Love It, Please Please Please, talking about.
The brilliance of her writing a song begging her boyfriend not to embarrass her while casting her real life boyfriend Barry Kiogan in the music video. We also talked about Barry's history and men who leave their partners when they've become really famous.
Yeah, just off him in a big way.
Yes, Oh, he was the rab boy with the Golden Retriever rising.
A link to all of these episodes will be in the show notes. That's it for today, out louders, thank you for making it through Wednesday with you, and thank you to our wonderful team for making this episode happen. We'll be back in here it is tomorrow.
Bye Bye, Siya.
Shout out to any Mom and Maya subscribers listening. If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to do so. There is a link in the episode description.
I was laughing during that last segment because it's like, you think that a magazine is actually a coffee table book.
I think they're going to display it in their apartment like a piece of armor, and then it just has pictures.
No, the way a magazine works is that there's pictures, but also words climate change,