The Viral 'Friendship Shed' Theory

You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifth of December. And I am Holly Wayne Wright.

And I am m Burnham.

I'm Jesse Stevens.

And here's what's on our agenda for today. M here is how you pick a partner. God, don't worry about the big value alignment stuff. We are worried about micro compatibilities.

I'm worried about everything at this point.

We are working out what your micro compatibilities are. Just think about for a moment, what time you like to get to the airport. That's what we're going to be discussing.

And we have our weekly recos. I'm going to try to not talk about F one for the entire segment, but you know, no promise. It's a big week.

But first Jesse Stevens.

A woman named Daniel Bayard Jackson is a female friendship coach and educator. She has a theory about your friendships. Here's what she said on the Mel Robbins podcast.

Recently, women replace about half of their friends every seven years.

Yeah, so men and women. Yeah, there's research that finds that we replace half of our friends every seven years. I hope that that makes people feel a little less ashamed if they have friendships that don't work out, because what that says to me is that there's this natural pruning that happens throughout your life. I also hope that that has people release any shame around needing to make new friends, because I hear people say I'm out here making friends at forty two. I should have had all

I'm about to get pruned when the seven years I could go, I might be about to fall.

Currently, I am just about to enter one.

So I start a new one at thirty five, and I'm thirty five in like a less than a month, So that's my new cycle. But Jackson says that this research means a lot of us find ourselves in seasons of friendlessness because we've shed. But it's quite hard to acquire new friends, especially as an adult.

Right.

If seven years sounds familiar, that is because it corresponds with the seven year itch, which we hear about in romantic relationships. So there's this theory that human development is marked by seven year cycles, and apparently your personality changes, there's new cognitive skills.

Look, what do we.

Think do we think friendship shedding is important?

This is an audio media. Man, you're watching us on YouTube shaking.

I just close my eyes.

And shook my head. I hate this so much. I feel like there's always something new with friendships. We always say women, the most important relationships in your life is the friendships you have with other women, And yet we do shit like this, Well, like, after seven years you're done with them, You're gonna get someone else. We never do this for romantic relationships. And every time this happens to a friend of mine who I haven't heard from in a really.

Long time, So you think it does happen.

It does happen for sure, but I haven't seen a long time, haven't heard from her in a long time. They break up with their partner and they have no one, They have no friends because they've been shedding, and they do it like unconsciously. I feel like we are less

Do you shared friends every seven years? No, it is your core group of friends. How long do you think you've had them.

I think I've had my core group of friends for seven years.

Yeah, because I reckon Probably from when you started work.

Yeah, my first friends are from when I started here at my MA.

So you like bonded in that intense way you do in a new workplace.

I don't want to know. I don't want Todd.

That's time for shedding.

No is a seven year shred just means that you're about to enter a different life stage.

It's not shred, it's shed shed. But the only reason I'm correcting you on that because generally people who correct people are annoying, and the clearly annoying. But is that shred sounds brutal like your whereas this is shedding, which sounds more gentle, kind of like it's just something that happens organically.

You know it is, and it's still stuck.

To the root.

I went back to the research, though, and your point is an important one.

M The researchers say this happens.

This is a phenomenon that they can point to and go, this happens in people's lives. So I was researching Jackson because the question is how you would share a friendship like this, right? And I found this radit thread of this woman who had clearly got this advice that you shared every seven years and a friend kept reaching out. Is actually from the perspective of the friend who got shared and she shared what this woman sent to her to say, friendship's over. So she basically said, hey, haven't

Everything okay, and this is what she said.

Hey, I wanted to wait until after the holidays, and I wanted to try and gather my thoughts together in the best way. But that's not fair to you. I really love you and your family, and I value the friendship we had. I've been trying for a while now to figure out how exactly to say this, but I think you said it well.

We've outgrown each other.

Oh.

I don't want to.

Drag this out because that doesn't benefit either of us. But I want you to know that I really enjoyed the time we had together, and I truly hope you do well moving forward.

I would rather die than send that message.

That's worse than a breakup. That's so bad.

It is so bad.

Ghost.

It's really important to have those long term friendships that you've had for years and years and years, and apparently they are like again seven signs or seven things that you need at least a few of them to have this person be a lifelong friend. So a few of them are really obvious, like you've got to be able to speak the same language, right, But sense of humor, values are really important, and career trajectory is apparently really important.

Okay, I want to have to question you about values and career trajectory because I got a little bit itchy when she said some of my friendships from high school wouldn't be appropriate and they wouldn't reflect the values of who I am today. That sound to me like a job interview kind of. And also like your friends, you know, there's that thing of like your friends are a reflection of you, almost as if oh, you don't reflect very well on me, so I can't be around you, which

Exactly, exactly.

And so with those seven things, the idea is that there's a few of them that you've got. And another one is hobbies and another is taste in music. So I also bristle at that holly because I think that the life stage where this comes really obvious is when some people in the friendship group have kids and some don't.

And I think that there can be this thing among parents where it's like I've outgrown you.

I've outgrown you with your sleepins and your yeah, and I really there's a snobbery to that, and also a sense that your values change overnight, and I'm not sure that that's necessarily true, and I think it's so real shame.

Yeah, I think it depends what you're looking for in

Is also a question of time and energy.

What the research says is that you've got the capacity to maintain about three to five close close intimate friendships. So if you've only got that, and then you can see how the trading in and out can happen.

Right.

But I would say that my three to five close friendships are really long term, are longer than seven years.

Maybe one one in.

The last seven years who's kind of come in, and then the others might be situational or life stage. But those ones, I think there's something critical about having people who've known you for a really long time.

I also think that when I think about like my closest friends, it's from like my own point of view, and like you three are my closest friends, I don't necessarily know if I fall in that same category for those certain friends. So I feel like where I would probably bristle is that if I think these are lifelong friendships for seven years and then they get to my seven year mark and they're like, actually no.

Because I think that's true. I think there are some people who are lifelong friends no matter what. Yeah, their family pretty much is the way I see that. And then there are people who are friends who you like hanging out with, but it's not necessarily bonded on. However, in defense of new friendships, the part about this that I did like is just saying you should always be

And also not feeling shame about being at a stage where you feel like your green light is on thinking I'm actually really open to some new friends. I know lots of people who who say it with like this vulnerability of just like, I'm feeling a bit lonely and I don't feel connected at the moment, and I would love some new friends.

I want to bring up something else about friendship that was really interesting this week, and hear what you two think about it. So there's an essay on Substack by a writer called harneit Core, and she wrote a piece called I don't think most of us are lonely. I think we're obsessed with a friend group that doesn't exist and never did. She opens this article with this, you know the one six people who met in college and still get dinner every Thursday. They have a group chat

I think I definitely strived for that in my early twenties, Like I saw what friendship was meant to look like, and I wanted mind to reflect on that, to the point where I would start to call my friends out if they weren't hanging out with me enough. I remember I one of my really good friends, I wanted to get dinner with her and we were trying to organize a date and she's like, I'm really busy this week. I was like, well, what are you doing on this day?

It's true though, there's this like vision that you torment yourself with that you imagine that. You know, it's the long table with fifteen women who are just have been close since high school, and you just.

Think God, like the second effects, like you just picture yourself at a bar and like a friend plongs down and you just like straight away start talking about their sex life. Yeah.

But I think to the point made in that substack post, I think there are obviously different tiers of friendship. But I also want to validate people who do talk to their coworker, they do talk to their neighbor, maybe they're married, maybe they speak to people at the school gate, whatever,

Once a week. Like there is a level of.

Intimate close friendships where you can call up and say the most, you know, the darkest, most terrific, most embarrassing thought that you've had that week. Sometimes I just have these thoughts and there is a specific friend that I will go to and maybe I haven't talked for in two weeks, but I'll just dump it and go just confirm it.

Are we all thinking this?

And she'll go yet, nahna, and just validate it, And so you feel seen in that exchange.

Do you have a group like this? Who around this table has a group? As described by Core in that newsletter.

When I was at UNI, I met a group of people.

Two of them are guys and now they're girlfriends, fiancees, and there's probably eight of us and we're in a group chat and we talk most days and we go away together.

That's your friend group.

That's our friend group.

And they're the people I see down the road at barbecues, zack kids grow up like all of that.

I just see that as a real care.

So you have the group. Do you have the group? You have the group, they're the girls that you're here.

I do have the group. It was a bigger group, and then it's like silos sometimes into smaller groups, depending Like I feel like when you're single, you see each other more, and then when you're in a relationship, they kind of see each other more and they're like couple friends. And I used to really hate that because I was like, no, the group has to say together, it has to be together. It has to be like six of us at all times. And now a lot of them I have like moved

I think You're being on stem about like lots of us might say, Oh, that's really superficial. I wanted to say, that's not what friendship looks like. But we've all really rusted onto these ideas of how friendship looks and I think that that's one of the things that looking at it from the outside rather than being inside it. We need to figure out which one of those things is more important in a moment.

Oh, I'm so.

Excited to talk about this. We're talking about the real dating deal breaking.

Am.

I'm bringing some anti energy to the table, and I'm being like, I need to give you some advice. I need to give you some advice because I read something this week made a lot of sense to me, because I know that you're in the business of auditioning a future life partner. Yeah, she's not just dating, she is auditioning a future life partner.

I can't wait to get in a relationship so we can stop. Every time second I hear.

That Ray song, you know that song that's ever mining, Well.

The hell is that?

Husband?

I just think of what was on? Can I get them one more time? Not because I think you need one, but because you think you need one. I'm always like, you know, I think you.

Think I think that I think I need one, I.

Think wants.

Anyway to go on a date.

No one was making you go on a date.

M I know you have a list of questions because we've talked about it before, that you like to discuss on first dates, right, but I have sex, marriage, kids. Oh my god, to see this is a problem. I read this article by Polly Hudson and the UK Guardian that suggests that people are keen to skip the small talk these days. She writes, so wady conversation topics such as life goals, like the things that you just mentioned are deal breakers and are now brought up straight away.

So glad I can be the guinea pig for this topic.

Hudson says, this is a mistake. What matters to longevity is how long before a flight do you like to get to the airport? Do you wander supermarket aisles when you go shopping or do you go in with a hard list for maximum efficiency? Would you walk out of a movie if it was terrible? She's saying that basically, these are the things that really matter because if you have a partnership where these things are really different. They might seem really cute at first, but one day it

Like with the flight example.

Now I want to know two things. I want to know what we would add to this list of like life deal breakers, and also whether you really should look for someone who shares the same ones as you or whether you want someone who does something different. So, for let's take the airport example. Right, Yeah, how long before a flight do you like to get to an airport?

I have a lot of airport anxiety. You might have noticed for the outlaudtoid and travel with anyone, No, I didn't see. Yeah, I have to be there three hours before.

So imagine you meet the perfect person, but he's an hour person. He's an hour before person. That's it.

Now we're breaking up.

Why are you or are you one day going to come to a glorious compromise of ninety minutes. I'm not sure, Jesse, what about you?

I'm probably more like two hours because I do have a lot of anxiety about missing the fly.

I just don't want to be seen as the person who misses.

Yeah, I think that's embarrassing, and walking on last and everyone looking at you like you've held up the flight.

I don't like that.

But I married a three hour and so there is definitely there's always a chat, there's always a conversation.

We've got to find a happy medium.

And did you know that about each other during the dating press? And in some.

Ways I see, I would argue that in some instances you want your yin and your yan. Yes, you want two people who approach things very differently to get to a lifestyle that is actually quite enjoyable.

You don't want two people competing for like, well it's the latest we can get to the airport, because then you just never go on home.

And also, I would argue in some of these things, you want to pick someone who's your yang so that you don't have to do the difficult shit. For example, are you a person who if you arrive on holiday, the hotel looks nothing like the photos? Are you changing the room?

Yeah, you got to get the Instagram. Got to get the photos the Instagram.

Imagine you turn up on that holiday, it's seven nights yeah, and sunk cost fallacy.

The person you've turned up with goes, no, this is what we paid for.

We will stay in the shower where the water doesn't go like.

I would never, I would never change never.

No way, it doesn't look like the photos.

So I get to let's say we're going to Thailand. No, I haven't been Challe since I was twenty three. But anyway, say I'm going to Thailand and I've booked my resort and it looked lovely, but I paid because package deal A freaking paid and I turn up and it's not great. I would be upset and frustrated for the entire week. But I would put up with it, no question. And the problem is I would brands.

I will then post on your Instagram, the site, yeahs.

Other things, but it's not it's about I just couldn't bring myself to walk up to the counter. I'm just not wired that way. Whereas I know plenty of people who one night in a hotel, if the bed's not whatever, they'll go downstairs and go I need a better room. That's the two types of people thing. And this is one of those examples where I think, if you're like me and you're avoidant. It would probably be good if my partner was a walk out person. It's like, do you send food back?

Right?

I never send food back, And the problem is I never send foodbacks. I never want to be seen as really difficult. But if I was with someone who did, that would be great because I would sit there going, this is shit. But I don't want to tell them. You tell them, you tell them.

There was something I saw on Instagram last night that I went to tag Holly in and then I went, maybe she'll get offended. It said myself and my partner reject traditional gender roles. I don't clean and he doesn't fix broken things, and our house is dirty and broken.

And I was like, this is.

Bread.

So this is what we're trying to plant here.

Here's one that I really struggle with and has caused friction in my relationship. And I didn't know before. We took me a while to learn it. When you go to the beach, do you like to sit and lie and soak it up and have hours at the beach or your quick dip and get back in the car. Because I have married a dip back in the car and that's not relaxing.

Yeah, because we're from the outer suburbs, so we had beach days. So we've only acknowledged the beach in the sense of a whole day.

Exactly right.

It's a tree.

Every time I go to the beach. It's a total trait. How about you.

My big one is if I am dating someone, I need to find out what type of holiday family they're from, Like are they a hiking family or a hotel family, the two different types. I'm a hotel family. Yeah, when my family goes on holidays, surprise, we stay in hotels, we eat at restaurants, we go back to the hotel. I can't date someone who goes hike and then sight see and then hike again, and then we'll into the next sight seeing place and then eating sandwiches while we're

Is okay, So holiday styles.

I wonder, speaking of holiday styles, having someone who's the travel agent of the relationship, right and they go we're going here, we're going here, hiker blah blah blah blah, like they organize it. I think that sometimes a good mix is having one of those and the other's just a passenger. And they're happy to just show up and they get sent the itinerary.

Did they look at it?

Not?

And they're not allowed to have opinions. But the other person is like the book or the blah, the blah, like I think that they're a lot that's fair fair where if you sat and on paper it might not look compatible, but it actually really.

Works for you.

Are you a que jumper? This is another one, right, So imagine you turn up to a concert, flight queue a restaurant and there's a line and you could cut in, like not rudely, like elbow a child out of the way, but like just hover around a certain space, and then just you're running.

Late that flight and you go, hey, excuse me my flights?

Can I come to the front?

Can I go to the front?

Do you do that or not? Are you a cue jumper or not?

No?

Absolutely not.

I'd be more to be in the presence of a que jumper, mortifying.

I've tried to do some que jumping when we went to Oasis recently and a I got yelled at by strangers, which was and b Brent nearly divorced me on the spot, not that we're married, but I was like we're not exactly jumping the queue. We're just standing here and the queue will just envelop us and move forward. And he was like, no, it won't.

No.

I hate that. I can't even do the whole thing where if you see friends ahead of you and they wave to you, I can't even go to them.

I'm always I'm like, I'm back here.

I'll catch up with you when I get in.

So in some situations, people please, and in some situations not. Do you bringe your TV shows or do you parcel them out like treats? This is another important one. Sometimes you're there and you're watching TV and you're like another one and they're like no, no, no, no, we're done. We'll wait there.

Oh you know what, the relationships done? We're watching every single episode of this show. Will you talk about this all on the first date.

The idea is little lifestyle things that actually matter more maybe than going like big picture values. And I think it's true these are the things that couples fight about. What time to get to the airport. Bren always thinks that I've packed too much, like when we're packing the car to go away. Always whenever you go to on a shopping trip, not that shopping trip, but like, you know, I want to go to the shops. He acts like

Yeah, I reckon. There's a little checklist that you should probably go through.

Just it's just getting harder and harder.

It's going to make it easier because then you think, if I want someone to do this for me, like get us to the front of the queue, I need to find a guy who doesn't mind elbowing children out of the way.

We're forming a very specific guy at this time. I don't think that exists.

After the break our best recommendations, including a very out loud gift guide from Holly and a very very helpful recommendation from m.

One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week. And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

This is my best recommendation.

It is Friday, and we want to help set up your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly.

So I've got a very specific and slightly self serving recommendation because I'm recommending our gift guide of recommendations, oh, which is in the newsletter tomorrow. In exception, if you are a subscriber to the Holy out Loud newsletter tomorrow in your inbox, you're going to get the out Loud Gift Guide. And that's literally what it's called a very out Loud gift Guide. It's got gifts in it for everybody in your life. So it's got gifts for the m in your life. You've given me those ideas for

Shirt for this.

I've got this, but I just bought it for a friend of mine. So this is a paperclip necklace from a brand called Francesca.

I think you've got one around my rear bracelet.

They're engraved and.

It's engraved and it has Luna's birthday.

So they are a paper clip necklace and that you can get a gold one, a silver one, a rose gold one, and so they're cool. But also mine has got the kids' names and mine and Brent's names on it. But it's really subtle, so it's like you can't quite see it. Yeah, I like that about it.

Yeah, it's called.

The etched necklace from Francesca, and I have just bought one for a friend. I reckon it's a great gift for somebody. They're a business from Hobart, so we've got lots of ideas like that. Also, we've got the best beauty stuff. Of course, I've got some gardening thing, so Lincoln show notes for the Out Loud Gift Guide. That is my reco for this week.

My recommendation is a book, and I've nearly finished one of.

The buzziest books of the year.

It's been called the best debut fiction book in forever. It is called The Names by Florence Napp. Have you read it yet?

I haven't read it yet. I've heard so much about it to read it, although I've heard it's dark in the mood.

Yeah, so i'd heard about it, but I had no idea of the premise, just that everyone who read it said it's brilliant, You've got to read it. And then I started it and Luca kept saying, are you okay? And I would just be sobbing in bed, like you know how a little life or there are certain books that catch you at a time in your life where it's like you've got to be in the headspace. It'll make you cry. It's really it's heavy. It's an emotional journey,

He's a bad bad man.

And so she's deciding whether to give him that name, give him a name she wants, or give him the name that her daughter wants for this little baby. And it follows the trajectory of the three lives. So what would happen if she chose this name, this name or this name?

And it is just so.

Clever and twist d I mean, ultimately it's hopeful, but it's about three versions of the same life.

I love.

It's really really good.

What a crazy idea?

Yeah, I don't read that in the holidays.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good.

So my recommendation today F one. No, it's not my real recommendation. It's just like a PSA. The last F one race is going to be at twelve am on Monday, so we'll it's decent time for all of us. Abidabi the Orlando wins.

Jess is in a great mood.

Out loud as you may have missed last Fridays but and went on like a twenty minute rant about front No a lot of out louders.

Were very on board, which I was so excited and.

Some and then some of them were not. And then some of them got upset because I made a throwaway comment that I didn't think it was a sport. I take that back. I was being facetious. Of course it's a sport. You just don't use, you know, your athleticism to do it.

Have you seen this.

And the head and the neck? And they okay?

So remember last week I said could be anyone's championship. It's still could be anyone's championship. Because in the last race at Qatar, I said, guitar last time, sorry Qatar. Max came first, Oscar came second, and Orlando came forth. McLaren really really stuffed up the team strategy. I think they were trying too hard to make it look like they weren't choosing favorites, and then they just said, actually, we hate them both. I don't want them to go Max.

Some of the other commentary I saw was upset with you, Jesse for not backing the Aussie. Would you like to retract your support for Lando?

And I'm pregnant and I find Lando very sexy on my eyes.

Leave Jesse alone.

But some people say, they said, look, I googled Lando, never heard of him. I think he looks a bit like Luca Local was stoked by it.

I just he's very handsome.

Micro compatibility. Do they have to like F one anyway?

Yes, they do. Okay, So now this race, this last last race, if Lando Norris gets spots one, two or three, He's definitely going to be championship. For Max to win the championship, he has to come first and Lando has to come fourth. All later. Oh, I'm so excited. That's it. That's it. Okay, okay. So my next recommendation, my actual one, is this barmb I bought it here today. It's an anti chaf bomb by the brand Scoop. I walk to work.

I know it can get so sorry, it's so bad.

And then I have to walk with my legs like far apart, like an elephant, like I'm stomping around the place. So this anti chaf barm I've used a lot in the past. This one's probably my favorite because it goes on and you can't feel the product on your legs. It doesn't feel sticky the longest time I used vaciline, which I mean, great all purpose product, but you still feel like the slimy and if it's hot, yeah, and that doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like that.

Ah.

It is so do you get it from them?

Get out of Door Beauty. It's around twenty five bucks.

Of course. Good.

It's such a good idea.

Great recco friends. That is all we have Loud allowed, that is all we have time for today. Remember, of course you can watch us on YouTube. You would have just seen them do a very good yay. Yeah like here. It is representation of shaping Spotify. Wrapt is out. It's a big day. It takes over the culture for twenty four hours. Yeah, and we need to thank all the out louders who said that we were their favorite show. Well didn't say it was evidenced in their phone.

They are favorite people. And look, we don't take it for granted. We are so honored.

Thank you so much for everyone who tagged us and let us know when everyone who listened and laughed and argued along with us and engaged. It is the greatest privilege being a part of your day. And we are cooking up some more fun, lots of surprises.

Big things for twenty twenty six. If we were on your Spotify wrap list, of course, we'd love it if you shared it told everyone else, because what better badge of honor than to tell everyone you're a out louder.

Exactly right, Jesse, Oh, tell them about the book club.

Yeah. So last week we dropped the first episode of our summer book Club series in partnership with Royal Caribbean. It was about Miranda July's All Fours. We got such great feedback, a lot of people who hadn't even read the book but.

Just waited the book.

I hated the book, and we're very interested to hear our candid commentary. The second book coming up is Great, Big, Beautiful Life by Emily Henry. Holly and I have never read an Emily Henry book.

I read two Emily Henry's books, I read Funny Story and Happy Place. I love romantic tropes. However, I heard this book is a bit different to her usual books. It's less trophy. Okay, we're still romance.

But so that's going to be our next Summer Book Club EP. It is dropping on the twenty eighth of December, so if you want to be a part of it, make sure you start reading and meet us there. Thank you to our team for helping us put this show together. Group executive producer Ruth Devine, Executive producer Sashatanic.

Our senior audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer is Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovic.

We'll see you on Monday. Bye bye bye, Mama. Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've recorded this podcast.