You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about On Wednesday, August the fourteenth, I'm Holly Wainwright.
I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
And on the show today, a TV presenter suffered a panic attack live on air and everyone's so very grateful. Also why gambling companies are on every Footy Jersey and Gina Reinhart is sitting poolside in Paris? Who fun sport? And why does it matter? And ditching scrolling sex, wine shopping, what's a dopamine detox? And could you survive? But first MEA Friedman? O Katie, Mister.
Baby name regret is real and it's estimated that around ten percent of parents don't like the name that they chose for their child, as opposed to the percentage of people who don't like the name that celebrities choose for their children, which is probably much higher. This week, Kylie Jenna has given an interview to British Fogue where she explains the turmoil that she experienced when she named her second child, a son called Air spelled Are, but who
used to be called Knight spelled knigt. She said, my son's name was actually Knight for a long time. And my daughter still to this day, is like, do you remember when Air's name was Night? And I'm like no, and she's like, that was so funny, Mum. I like Night better, and I'm like, you know what, We're not doing this again, and she went on that actually is funny. She went on to say that she really struggled to name her son and she was hysterically crying on the
phone to her mother. Chris spelled Kris on the phone, and she said to her, Chris with k I can't figure out his name. Now. My advice to all my friends having children. He's picked the name before, because when the hormones hit, you can't make decisions. You can't, she cries. When I met him, he was just the most beautiful thing to me, and I couldn't believe just how perfect he was. I felt like such a failure that I couldn't name him. He deserved so much more than that. It just really triggered me.
I don't often say that Kylie Jenner is relatable. I found this incredibly, very relatable. I think she's spot on the idea that you go through something like giving birth and then you're expected to make a rational, logical, administrative decision.
With respect you have nine months.
Yes, but a lot of people we were the same. We kind of went, oh, we'll meet her that last. When we look at her, we'll know. And I had no feelings either way. You're often incredibly sleep deprived. Luca was very committed to Luna. I ended up saying, yes, I had no feelings at the time. I still the name is like, she just is Luna. I think we probably give too much stock to a name. We do, But I don't feel strongly either. I just had no capacity to make a decision, which is what she's So.
You don't have regret, No, I don't have regret. Do you want to know the breakdown of why people have regret?
Yes.
Of the people who regret it, twenty five percent say it's because the name is too common. Twenty what do you know, lunas? I think number one or two most common names. Twenty one percent of name regrettas say that it just doesn't feel right and twenty percent say that I never liked it. I was pressured into using it yep. Eleven percent say it causes problems with spelling or pronunciation, like air with an E, and eleven percent say it just doesn't suit my kid.
I used to I think we both did. Me a work with someone who changed their baby's name after like a year, and it's more common than you think. And the thing is, is, just like everything about parenting, when you do that case in point, Kylie Jenner, a lot of people have a lot of feelings.
I'm really angry.
Why do they get so angry about that?
Sofya Keisha changed her names. I don't know why people care.
People care deeply.
I think that's probably a threshold. What do we think it is?
Like?
Eight?
Can you not change your name anymore?
The thing is is.
That my daughter still.
One of the little triggers of why it probably irritate people is because it feels very vain, like I'm not saying that it is, but I can see why it does, because you know how you just said, Luna just is Luna and you don't really think about it. I think that's how most people feel about their kids' names. Is
they like we liked it. At the time, we didn't really realize that we liked it because we're part of a culture where everybody likes it too, hence Luna, hence the fact that Matilda is usually in a sporting team with like five other Matilda's. Because of that particular moment was the name, and we thought we were being different. And I think most of us go, you suck it up and you deal with it. But if you've got the balls or the female version of balls to go, no,
I don't like it. I'm going to change it. It feels that.
I think that's the Manchester view, right view. Is why it makes people upset is because it's suddenly like, is that something that we can do? Is that something we're doing now? Because then it hadn't occurred to me that I could change my child's name, And now I've got the mental load of thinking maybe I got it wrong. True, I like the idea. You've made a decision, Okay, next, yeah, yeah. So if it's like, well, you could change it if you wanted to, too many choices.
Oh, well, you could just give them the nickname like his called Night, but we call him a Why I don't care it's family. We just do.
Yeah, no one knows the Bethti forget. My uncle was tasked with the job of writing down the kid's name, Like, you know, the wife's just given birth. Can you go and do the forms? Filled out the forms wrong, middle and first came the wrong way around. Really, they're still pissed about it.
It's hard when you're tired and you've got to fill out forms.
Yeah, a man is halfway through doing his very public job when he has to put his hand up and say, I'm sorry, I can't keep going.
I need a minute.
Nate Burned, the very popular weather reporter on ABC Breakfast, did exactly this in front of thousands of viewers on Tuesday morning and instantly became a viral video. Here's the audio of what happened.
We've got big falls right through that part of the country, and we're going to see lots more rain in the days ahead. Actually going to need to stop for a second. Some of you may know that I occasionally get affected by some panic attacks, and actually that's happening right now. Lisa, maybe I could hand back to you.
You certainly can date Nate's co workers, including Lisa Miller, who you heard there on that Grab immediately jumped in finished the weather for Nate and explained what was happening, reassuring views that he was fine.
That was so hard to listen to him, Oh so hard to like. You can hear it start. You can hear him swallow, try to get it together, and you can hear his voice wobble, and you can hear him make that snap decision of I actually can't keep going because he tries to keep going and then he can't, and then to have the fortitude to be able to do a throw, I can't believe he was a co host to articulate that, I'm so impressed, very very impressive.
It was immediately hailed as the textbook way to handle a coworker's mental health incident with sensitivity and grace by his colleagues, and then Nate himself came back on the show a little bit later to talk about it, as he'd done in an article for the ABC two years ago after it happened before, and he reassured the audience that he was fine.
Very pleased to say that our wonderful colleague mate is.
Back with this.
Sorry if I gave anybody a bit of a scare there.
Yes, not really, because you've been very honest before about getting panic attacks on air, and it's so great for people to know that it can happen to When.
He gave me a scared because I thought I'd have to finish doing the weather report and I'm no good of that.
Well, he was talking about Queensland, so.
I was going to step up well, and today would be the day to do it. There's so much going on for Queensland. But thank you all so much for helping out.
Here's a little bit of what he wrote in that story where he first explained his panic attacks. He said, I had my first ever panic attack on live TV. I was standing in one of my favorite places, doing the thing I love most. He went on to say, anxiety had never been an issue in my life before,
even though high stress situations weren't a stranger. But this time I wasn't a naval officer moments away from running a warship aground, or standing in front of a stadium filled with twelve thousand people hosting my first internationally televised event. I thought that my career was over. Something was taking control of me without my permission or understanding, and it was preventing me from doing what made me me. I
was stood down for the rest of the day. News Breakfast co host Madeline Morris very tactfully told the audience that the weather man is under the weather and I gathered by things and went straight to the doctor. Now Nate's not alone. This week, both Carrie Bickmore, radio host, TV presenter, cancer charity advocate all round Legend said that
she had also suffered while doing her job. She said this on radio this week, and she played a little bit of audio of herself reading the news while suffering anxiety. Before then she jumps in and talks about it.
And the fate of the English Siamese twins have been decided. A London courts ruled they can undergo surgery to separate them. Doctors are expected to wait a month. Though we have speed cameras on Army and Abs Sorrento, Southwest Highwi, Armadale Grade, Eastern Highway, Greenmound, Tonkin Highway, Morley, Enna, sav Rockingham and Orong Road Belmont.
We don't need to know how the traffic's going back twenty years ago, but I still look back and think how did I do that? Because I was so consumed by this anxiety, and I didn't tell my family and friends about it because I think it felt quite significant in the scheme of some of the stuff that was happening in my life at the time. But I remember I would have them all afternoon when I was reading the news on Nova, and then all morning when I
joined USY and Kate all those years ago. And I only told Kate Langbrook about it the other day and she was like, what are you talking about. I think I managed to get through that whole time without I just imagine people were having meetings in rooms going what Wronger though?
Why does she sound like that?
And why does she do that?
She had no idea. I think it's interesting her first comment, which was why didn't you tell me? And I think that's the thing. I just wish I'd spoken to people about it back then, because she wouldn't have cared. She would have done nothing but helped me out.
Carrie said that she had was on the verge of a panic attack pretty much every single time she went on air in any capacity on TV and radio for a good decade.
Wow.
Jackie I also backed up this morning, saying she'd had panic attacks for eighteen months after a negative drug experience. I want to understand something about this, right because this is obviously struck such a chord when Nate in particular has been so open about what he was going through, and there's something about seeing it with your own eyes. Is it possible do you think to avoid putting yourself in circumstances that would make you this anxious if you
suffer from anxiety? Because put in the most base terms, and I want to be really careful not to sound dismissive or insensitive about it, but in a world where we're constantly urged to push yourself out of your comfort zone and do something every day that scares you and all those things, is there a way in which, like, if something about your job makes you hyper anxious, it might not be the right.
Job for you. So what you're articulating, Holly, and I know that, or sort of being Devil's advocate is actually something that comes up in a lot of comment sections, So particularly the first time that Nate Burne came out with his story, a lot of the comments were like, why are your weather man? Why are you on live television?
And I actually put it to some out louders we have a lot of out louders who are practicing psychologists, And I said, and I had a hunch because I've seen psychologists and studied it at UNI for a bit, but I just wanted their expertise. You know, you hear Kate Campbell talk about swimming and the stress.
That that causes her to vomiting before they go on stage from nerves.
And the psychologists said a few interesting things. They said, often the panic attack isn't as related to the situation you're in as you might think. So it isn't the live television, It isn't reading the weather that's causing the panic attack necessarily. And people who experience panic attacks will testify to this that they can happen when I mean, I've had them when I've sat down to rah or
I've been totally by myself. And people who don't work in live television also have paying attacks all the time. And the other thing they'd said is that the advice a psychologist wouldn't give you is avoidance. So the thing that makes anxiety worse and panic attacks worse is avoidance.
So I went to a psychologist about panic attacks, probably ten years ago, and we did exposure therapy that's part of CBT, and they gradually I'm not sure a psychologist if you were in this level of distress, they'd be like, go and do it again tomorrow. They help you and be a bit gentler. But it exacerbates anxiety to avoid it. And so I would hazard a guess that if Carrie Bickmore wasn't reading the news, if she was doing something else,
those panic attacks still might present themselves. I think the reason that these stories go viral is because one thing that people get very self conscious about is how they appear. Because you feel like when you're in the midst of a panic attack, you actually I thought i'd had one. I once called an ambulance because I thought that I was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack. You think everyone can see your head exploding, and it
is mortifying and shameful, and it's this dread. This You're so certain that you're dying in that moment that to actually see or hear someone else go through a panic attack sort of demystifies it and you go, oh, the world kept spinning, the sun rose next day. It wasn't the end of the world.
And from the outside, if he hadn't have walked off, you wouldn't have known if he hadn't have said it. No, it's interesting when I've had panic attacks. I don't feel like I'm dying, but I feel such a level of terror that I can't even speak it. I can't even tell anyone. I would never have been able to say what Nate did, or in Carrie's case, tell a friend
or a coworker, because it's really had to explain. But you're right, Jesse, in terms of I used to have panic attacks whenever I flew, and I could have decided to not fly, and I did minimize the amount of travel that I did for a really long time. And then I realized my life was getting smaller because anxiety will just attach itself to something else, and it did. Once I got over my fear of flying, my anxiety
attached itself to a different fear. I think that what's so amazing about Nate doing this, And also a shout out to Lisa Miller for the way she was able to handle that, and I remember, this is not the first time that's happened to her. This also happened when she was hosting and life TV is so hard. She had a guest who was menopausal. She had a hot
flush and she suddenly couldn't speak. And Lisa was also in the position there to just carry that through and give that person complete dignity and make it feel really normal. And that is an incredible art and an incredible skill. But I think Carrie back there wouldn't have seen anyone. No one spoke about anxiety. When I was having my
panic attacks. It was in the earlier days of Mum and mea and I didn't want to tell anyone or write about it because I thought it would mean people would think I was crazy and people wouldn't take me seriously. The generosity of being public about something.
Like that is huge. The other thing I thought was a note about what they both said the more you listened, and I urge people to read Nate Burne's article. It's really insightful. But the thing that they're almost scared them continued to scare them more than the stimulus was the possibility of having a panic attack again. So that's actually what the and then you're panicking about that, Yeah, so then when you get any of the symptoms like Nate the first time he had it, Interestingly, he was running
late and you kind of had to run. And if you've had panic attacks and you feel out of breath, that can freak you out because you go, oh, no, i'm not, I'm not I'm not telling me I'm not having panic, and then you start to spiral, and then the physiological sense of panic start to trigger the brain, and then that's when it happens.
It's also not possible to avoid everything that might trigger you. So for example, I have panic attacks when I have ultrasounds or any sort of scan because of a bad experience and a bad result that I got many many years ago. I didn't even realize that's why I would have them, Like it took my mum to sort of say, Darling, I think it's because that time you had the ultrasound and you lost the baby, Like I think that's what and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, like I had
to almost sedate myself. But you can't not have a mammogram. You can't not have an ultrasound if you need one. So that's why I also, avoidance just isn't possible and it isn't helpful.
I find all that, of course, absolutely enlightening and correct. The only thing I would say is that for some people work stress does really add to their anxiety, and there is no shame in saying I can't do this. And I'm not suggesting for even a split second that that's what Nate or Carry or anyone should not even for a second. But I mean, because panic attacks are kind of a bit different, right, but for lots of people who find themselves teetering on the edge of I mean,
breakdown's a tough word. But you know, when I did that interview with Julie Goodwin and she was talking about how she felt she couldn't get off this professional flywheel that she was on of all this work that she had to do to keep everything going all the time, but she was inside, just completely in the grips of a terrible mental health crisis. And she said to her psychiatrist, but I can't stop. And she was like why, and she's like, because of the money, because of the mortgage,
because of this is what I do. And her psychiatrist was like, you know, funerals cost a lot of money, too, you know, like which it seems like a very simplistic, extreme thing to say, But my point is just while I don't mean in any way to attach that to this conversation. There is no shame or stigma in not being able to carry on if you are struggling.
No, that's really true.
Is Australia about to ban gambling ads? And if so, could that mark the end of freeda air television? Are gambling ads keeping Australian support afloat? And does complete prohibition work? Anyway? Let's start at the beginning. An alliance of leading Australians has demanded the government totally ban gambling ads. Gambling losses in Australia. I didn't know this are among the highest per person in the world. They cost us an estimated
twenty five billion dollars a year. Among the signatories of this alliance that was put to the government was Formerr PM John Howard, who said many Australians are alarmed about the proliferation of gambling advertising on our screens, which I think we can all agree as a fair statement. Labour MP Mike Freelander said a total advertising ban was a necessary health policy akin to controls on tobacco advertising, adding that gambling is a way of transferring billions of dollars
from poor people to wealthy people. Yes, here's what Independent Senator David Pocock said this week.
It's a betrayal of Australians. Eighty percent of Australians want this, and we have a government that doesn't have the guts to actually stand up to the gambling industry, doesn't have the imagination to actually work with TV. Where is the courage from from this labor government. Young men who have committed suicide because of the whole that they have got themselves into with gambling addictions, and.
Jackie Lamby said this just for once to die, just for once. Put the future of our kids first.
Put the future of our kids first. I am begging you, yay Jackie that I just endorse everything that she says and the emotion in her voice abs of friggin lootly.
I love what she can get through in nine seconds. She's like, I only need nine seconds.
Gets my point.
That, But is it really that simple? Because on Q and A on Monday night, Bill Shorten said that free to air television needs the money from gambling ads to stay afloat.
We should go fundme for free to air television because you know they're not making enough money, but you know what they are poor Australians. We are having billions of dollars.
We will build, we will get gambling companies, but they hire a lot of Australians. A lot of people have jobs in these industries. And if free to air was to go down the toilet, a lot of people lose their jobs.
And also when we say free to way, they also been streaming, Like I watch a lot of streaming TV and there is a gambling ad every two seconds.
To be clear, if your business is held up by gambling advertising, you need to rel look at your business model, take some hard decisions. We don't accept gambling advertising at Mammamea. Would we be more profitable.
If we did?
Hell yes yes, But could we hire more people?
Hell yes yes, But Mama Maya is targeted at women. A lot of gambling advertising, if not all of it, is really appealing to men, so young men and young men. Right. So if I'm making my money off young men and a gambling company is going, I'm going to give you all of this money, which is a year's worth of revenue, it's a hard thing to say no to.
You know what else you make a lot of money from, or you used to tobacco advertising.
This is the most common comparison, and it's a very good one because gambling is addictive. Gambling is, as you said, Jesse, costing a lot of people, and a lot of young men who can't afford it, and not only young men, but a lot of young men an enormous amount of money. They are advertising in a way that's very attractive to attract a new recruit to this addiction. You can do it on your phone, you can do it in private. It's a very good comparison with your mates to part
of makeship. It's very good comparison to tobacco advertising. One of the issues is, though, and I guess this is one of the arguments they'd say, is that Australians spend so much money on gambling, Like they spend billions and billions and billions of dollars.
So under Labour's proposal, gambling ads would be banned online in kids programming. That seems like sense one to find kid.
Well, yeah, because the problem with kids advertising is I see lots of gambling ads on family TV. Okay, it wouldn't fall into like kids advertising, but let's say Lego survivor Lego Masters Summit like stuff that I watch with the kids and sport which we all watch with our kids.
So it would be during live sports broadcasting. Let's say you're sitting down, you're watching the NRL or the AFL live sports broadcasting in an hour either side. They're saying no gambling ads, but it can still appear during TV programming, but a lot of people are going hang on that. It means that at another time, let's say at ten PM, that you can put your gambling ads there. It'll keep it afloat. You can still show the sport, but we're
not showing them together because kids are watching the sport. There's, of course the other issue, which is maybe there's not gambling ads, but I turn on and I want to watch them. At Manly Sea Eagles, they've got points Bet written on their jersey sponsorship and you've also got points Bet Stadium, which is where the Cronulla Sharks play.
So what does that tell you if they're advertising on these programs and they're advertising on the players.
It tells you that it works.
It tells you that by doing that, more people spend more money with these companies and more Australians are put into financial hardship, often with tragic consequences.
Yeah. Absolutely, I'm totally with you, and I think we all are.
And I think that with you're very angry, but Jesse, You're like, Okay.
I am.
I'm very angry because I am very angry because I'm also a media owners. So this idea of and we have to make our decisions all the time about the advertising that we accept or don't accept, and to just say well, our business depends on it, I don't think that's good enough.
These are the exact arguments made about tobacco. And you know what, if Freda Air is dying, then maybe we just bring back the tobacco exactly.
And these media companies have all these lobbyists in Canberra talking to Bill Short and talking to all these people saying, oh no, it'll mean so many jobs.
Well, what does it.
Mean if it doesn't happen? What doesn't mean if we don't ban these ads?
Although I agree with you, and I do genuinely agree with you, it infuriates me how like my kids can literally parrot all the words to all the gambling ads and that is scary, So I can mind it, and I don't even know where they see them clearly on subliminal, you know it's going in. I guess if I was putting a Devil's Advocate argument on it, I'd say, with that number of Ozzie spending that much money on it
all the time, they clearly love it. There's a portion of the population who have problem and addiction.
Do you know what people love?
Yeah, yeah, okay, let me finish my sentence. Cigarettes and alcohol and social media.
Right.
There are lots of things that prop up our economies that are bad for people. So it's like, you know, the debate that's going on at the moment all over the world about what kind of restrictions we should be putting on social media and phone news for young people because that's also very damaging for their mental health. So it's like there are all kinds of pockets of our global economy that are held up by things that are
basically damaging, and this is one of them. And I agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be very strictly regulated. But I guess one of the arguments is I'm an adult, choose what I do with my money. Lardie Blardi blood. They do still let alcohol advertise around sport, not cigarettes, but alcohol, and that's interesting too, because there's an enormous portion of population who have massive problems with alcohol addiction.
The counter argument, and again it's not mine, is are we just going to impede everybody's choices and treat everybody like a child rather than let them make their own calls? I guess that would probably be a generous reach.
Yeah, what do you think about alcohol advertising during sport, especially given the say spike, you know, great final state of origin spike in domestic violence because men come home having drunk too much alcohol. Like, what do you think about that?
I think that there are responsible ways to drink.
The sports thing is fascinating because in England they have banned the shirts and the gambling companies from being directly involved in the sport, and the world hasn't ended, and the Premier League still makes a lot of money and they still sell the broadcasting rights for bajillions of dollars. So you know, it is a bit, as you say me, it's a bit of a furfey that like, everything will end and it is insidious that if you watch a
sporting game someone will kick a goal. We cut straight to a gambling ad, then we cut to another bit that looks like commentary, but actually it's brought to you by gambling ad branded content. It is insidious.
I've heard lobbyists say you can give them a few years to kind of make some plans about changing the advertising model or whatever. It's not going to be like a click of the fingers, and that seems fair enough. But on this because I've been thinking a lot about ethics and sport and who funds it, especially in light of the Olympics, which we've said, you know, brought everyone together.
And you might have noticed during the swimming when Australia won so many gold medals, especially Australian female athletes, they would go to the stands and there was a smiling Gena reyn Hart. Gena Ryan Hart is of course the executive chairwoman of Hancock Prospecting. She's made her money in mining, which is ethically fraught. But the commentators couldn't say a thing about Jana Reineheart at the swimming because she has
funded Australian swimming for years. Basically, even like Kate Campbell has come out and said she saved Australian swimming.
Hi versus Rehnhart.
It's Kate Campbell here, thank you so much for your support of this wonderful team. You have been a number one cheerleader every stroke of the way.
They've all said that they wouldn't be as successful without her financial and emotional support. She donates directly to the swimmers, basically meaning that they don't have to work other jobs. They can train, like really really hard throughout the years and get these record gold medals. How do we feel about that? Because the swimmers, even they know how it works, they know it's in exchange. So even after they won
all their gold medals, there was a cruise. Gina took them on a cruise and they al said, thank you Gina.
It's really interesting this because you can see this like conflict in some of the athletes, in particular the younger ones in this like genuflecting to Gina, to your benefactor or patron, yes to your patron, yes, which is a very it's as old as time right, like wealthy people subsidizing arts, subsidizing sports, subsidizing events, and then your job is to just not say anything mean about them. It just gets Gina because one of the interesting things about
why does Gina do this. She's got a lot of money and you know, I'm sure it's fun to decide what you want to do with it. Is there has to be a level here where it's in exchange for something, yeah, and it seems to be in exchange for influence, cultural influence, because we know how Australia feels about the swimming, particularly every four years. And in fact there will be a very strong argument being mounted right now that Australia's best
ever Olympic results are a direct result of Gina. There has been a report I read this investigation in the Herald that was sort of trying to uncover what some of this influence might look like. And she famously had a big falling out with Swimming Australia a few years ago and withdrew funding from that organization, but carried on a partnership with Swimming Queensland and as you said, Jesse,
going directly to the swimmers instead. They seem to have been patching that up because I think they had to. But for example, at that time there were reports that Hancock Prospecting were asking for things like could Swimming Australia not support Pride months in a public way, could they take the acknowledgment of country off their website and off their Instagram posts and things like that. Wow, and then we talked about this.
I can't remember.
I'm not sure that they did because I'm not sure if it was that direct. When the Herald asked Hancock Prospecting directly, is it true that you asked for those The statements that came back were like, Hancock Prospecting doesn't believe that politics has any place in sports. So they didn't say yes or no. They just said this is our thing, right.
And it's like when there was.
That farua is how I say fual around the Gina ryin Hart portraits in the National Gallery. We went into this on the show, so I won't go into it in big detail, but you like it. She did like it, and an email was sent out to all her swimmers, her swimmers or the swimmers that said athletes. It has come to our attention that there are some portraits of missus Rhyinhart displayed in both the National and South Australian Art Galleries that she, rightly so in brackets, finds offensive
and insulting. I've attached them here so you can see them. We will be reaching out to the CEO of the galleries to express our concerns with the pieces that they do not represent the image or the reputation that is deserved as the patron of our sport, to assist in the message. It would be great to weight behind it as a collective group, giving that you are athletes that
she loves and supports so generously. They said it wasn't compulsory, but it would be appreciated, and swimmers like Kyle Chalmers did. They came out publicly and said, I think she deserves to be praised and I think these portraits are unfair and without her sponsorship we'd have nothing. So then she has these big galas at her mansion. When the swimmers all come up and get awards from her, she gives them MacBooks and treats and they all have to say
nice things. Like Ariann Tipmas went up and said, you know, I wouldn't have anything without you. So it's influence on a big part of Australian culture. And is there a problem with that or not?
Mia, Well, yeah, I mean in the same way that the gambling companies have influenced in commercial television and if you're a big advertiser, depending on the media organization, but why do you think the media companies are lobbying politicians to block this bill, to block any legislation that could turn the tap off.
So it is really.
Insidious, and I think that you don't even realize it. Like the stuff that you were just saying about we don't want swimming Australia to participate in Pride Month, that is really one person's view. She's buying cultural influence.
Quite literally, I've been thinking a lot. I was speaking to a friend over the weekend about imagining the last three years where the swimmers get pulled into private meetings and it's like, repeat up to me. We love Gina, we love we can't say anything bad about Gina. And someone's like, I just want to do my backstroke. I don't like, I don't want to get into all of this t.
Well, I mean, we know what happened when she tried to sponsor the Diamonds. The Diamonds and Nepal Australia wanted to take the money because they.
Really needed it.
The sport was in difficult financial straits and the players were like, we're not comfortable with this person whose father had said that Aboriginal people should be sterilized where uncomfortable with wearing his name Hancock prospecting on our outfits whatever they're called sporting uniforms while we play thought and so she withdrew the money. Yeah, because why she wouldn't disavow those comments.
I wonder how we'd feel about our athletes, you know, turning up to the opening ceremony with Hancock pect like emblazoned on on their front or whatever. And I in these situations either way, I actually feel for the athletes, because the athletes, even the rugby league player with points bet on his shirt, Yeah, he just wants to go and play the star he loves and he wants to get paid for it so that he can do it full time. And the kind of complicated, high level stuff.
I just think it's ethically frat, but it is really really complicated. I acknowledge that.
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You may have heard or seen something about doing a dopamine detox it's become a bit of a viral wellness trend in the last little while, and so we wanted to unpack what it involves and who needs one. First of all, what is dopamine. It is the brain's own reward system. So if you think of it as the brain's way of saying, Hey, that felt good, let's do it again. And it's the neurotransmitter that's responsible for feelings
of pleasure and reward and motivation. Whether it's biting into your favorite dessert or achieving a personal goal, Dopamine is there cheering you on and keeping you coming back for more. So having the activities that give you this dopamine hit as part of your lifestyle allows dopamine to be released through your brain's reward system, and so as a result, the pleasure will lift your mood and it will make
you feel more motivated and focused and less stressed. And dopamine can even act as a bit of a pain reliever. So the obvious question is why we choose to detox from feelings of pleasure. That sounds very puritan Well, the problem with dopamine inducing activities is that we come to rely on them too much. Talking about addiction. They can leave us craving more and more and more, and it's like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it.
According to clinical psychologists, they say that excessive engagement in sort of activities that give you a dopamine hit, especially when they involve instant gratification, can prompt over stimulation of your dopamine system, and that can lead to addictive behaviors and negative consequences. And they also say that when you become overly reliant on dopamine inducing activities, gambling is a really good example, it can dull our sensitivity to pleasure.
So they say that you know, if you look at things liken or gambling to use extremes, the high that you get can mean that you're constantly chasing a higher and higher high, and so called normal pleasures just don't give you that hit of dopamine. So dopamine detox means that you fast from dopamine producing activities or anything that gives you pleasure. That sounds horrendous, and the idea of
it is that you decrease reward sensitivity. Although it's important to say there's no scientific evidence to support the concept of a dopamine detox. It's really just kind of an Internet thing that people are talking about. So, for example, we spoke on the show a little while ago about raw dogging on flights. So our phones are probably the
biggest hit of dopamine that we get. Everyone gets, whether you're checking things, scrolling, all the different ways that our phone relies on us being addicted by giving us those little hits of dopamine that we're constantly looking for, which is why we end up doom scrolling, because we're scrolling and scrolling looking for the hit and thinking, I'll just stay a bit longer in case I get that hit
because I need more. If you do a dopamine detox and you're trying to, for example, limit your screen time, which is one way of doing it, the typical timeframe is doing it for two to four weeks, says a doctor who was quoted in an article about this. He says that you might feel irritable and moody during the first week or two as you reduce your engagement with the feel good activities. Jesse, do you need a dopamine detox?
I wouldn't have called it this, but I do this all the time because I'm very aware of it rather than dopamine. The way I think about it is like over stimulation or over arousal. In order to feel stimulated. If I am on my couch and I go all right, in order for me not to feel bored, I have to have my phone, my laptop, my TV on and music going, and also half reading a book. That's a problem. And I don't think that's good for me or my
brain all the way I live my life. So I will consciously go all right, we're taking down the arousal so that I can do the things that because then of course when I get into bed and open my book, of course that's not going to stimulate because where's the dopamine.
Or sit on the floor to read a book with your child.
Yeah, and that's parenting, I think is a good example, because parenting a child for a day is a dop for meat because even at work, right, you've got the slack messages, and you've got your cup of coffee or like all the little things that kind of keep you going, the almost little treat culture of.
It for it. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand. For it to qualify as to op means you have to like it. Or is it just that you're addicted to it? Because so say, I'm as guilty as this is everybody constantly looking at my phone, look at my phone, looking phone. But it also makes me feel really overwhelmed when my Slack messages are going bing bing bing, and my text messages and I do it all the time, but it's not like I go, oh, goody my phone being and I generally.
But you're still getting a dopamine hit because it's it's making stimulation.
And it's holding your attention, and you're right, when you're getting really overwhelmed, it means that you've got too much of it.
And I remember I used to tutor kids and you know, try to get them to write an essay, and they would be sitting in their room and they'd go, yeah, I've been trying to write my essay. And they'd have music on, they'd have a stress ball, all these different
points often phone, laptop, eleven tabs open. And I was like, well, you're not going to be able to write your essay like that because this is all antithetical to focus, because you're getting dopamine from so many different points of stimulus that it's going to be way too boring for you to do anything. And this is where the issue actually comes. Is anything that's purposeful or meaningful or goal oriented you
can't achieve because dopamine's getting in the way. Because there are ten things that are going to make you feel better than doing the essay right now, But you should do the essay right now because it's better for the long term. So it's also about hedonism.
I think it's about the attention economy and how the digital world has made all of us addicted to dopamine because everything about it is it rewards instant gratification, and it's built on instant gratification, and the things that you talk about reading a book, doing an assignment, there's no instant gratification. They're just a hard slog and there's not a lot of dopamine in the short term involved, like it's I'll give you some examples of low stimulus or
low dopamine activities. Examples include meditation, gentle exercise, reading in moderation. That's exactly how I don't know how to read. I only know how to read like hard and fast, spending time in nature, all the things I hate. Engaging in these activities during your detox helps maintain a calmer and more focused state of mind.
They say, you know what else? You know what else? Most of those tasks don't have attention instant gratification aside is you don't have to pay for them. So yeah, this is also about consumerism. This is about the attention economy, yes, but it's also about what you can buy. Because if where all one purchase away from happiness, which is what capitalism selves are us that if we just buy that one more thing, we're gonna be happy. Then we're constantly
on this flywheel of just next, next, next. But the things that you named is like, there's this difference between dopamine and happiness.
Do you like doing those things?
I love doing those things.
I also also ADHD affects this right me. You don't say they're feeling like in any way bad that You're like, I don't like that stuff. There must be something wrong with me.
You know that that's not true, Like you know that's not true.
And we talked about this on one of our subs episodes last week, and then I talked about it on Friday. But the thing I worry about about this is putting like moral value almost on the things that bring you pleasure.
Because one of the things that I've really come to understand about judging this kind of stuff is, you know the scenario that you explained at the beginning of this jesse where you're like, you're on your couch with your book and your TV and your phone, and I kind of do that to myself, but then I begin to feel a bit sick, and so I have to m claustrophobic. Yeah,
that's not how it makes you feel, is it. Like you've explained this to me lots of times and so of other people that like that makes you feel calmer.
So that so unable to focus better.
So for me to sit there and say to somebody to say to you, like, you know what you should do me, you should turn everything off and go for a.
Walk in the park.
Like that isn't necessary. I mean maybe it is, I don't know, but I don't think that is going to make you feel better. And feeling like you should be doing that is making you.
Feel worse, right anxious exactly.
The language of detox, which is borrowed obviously from all addictive stuff, and we'd say that giving up alcohol when you've got an issue with it is incredibly difficult and challenging, and you have to push through it to get to a good place. God, maybe not even a good place, a stable, steady place. Are we saying by using the
word detox in this context? Are we saying that Mia has to close all her tabs and go and sit in a park, even if that makes her really anxious and unhappy, because eventually she's going to see the light. That's not how your brain works, right, see the light.
I think the interesting thing about what you just said is about how you two actually like those things. So those low dopamine activities, your baseline is that you enjoy them. I've always detested them, and I have always felt that it's a moral failing you. Now everyone's like, go outside and touch grass, and you know, go for a walk on the beach and try meditation. Learning that I had ADHD and learning what ADHD is. It's essentially a dysfunctional reward system.
Or it's about dopamine right.
One hundred percent. So it's a completely dysfunctional dopamine reward system. Because we don't naturally produce enough of it, we have to look for it externally. It might be taking risks, it might be jumping around, it might be fidget spinners. We need more stimulation than the average bear. It's either we don't produce it enough naturally or we don't use it sufficiently. So what ADHD medication does is that it
are officially gives you dopamine, which helps you concentrate. Right, So, if you even look at caffeine, caffeine in someone who doesn't have ADHD is a stimulant. Caffeine for someone who does have ADHD is a stimulant, but it also helps you focus, and that's a big difference.
What I've always found strange about you is that so.
Many, so many you can't go on all day.
So true is that even though you're addicted to dopamine and you wear your bright colors and you've got your fidgets and you've got your phone, you still get the big things done. And to me, that's why I hate the distractions, because I feel like they're going to stop me from getting the big things done. But you're able to use the adrenaline. The whole thing about the reason why we were detox off dopamine is of what we're missing out on. But I'm not sure you're missing out on me.
That's why it can't be one size fits all.
No, But I am because my dopamine, my biggest dopamine hit his work. So when you say I get the big things done, I get the work big things done. Also because I don't have a choice because I'm co owned the business, but I get the work things done. I've got an enormous tank for work. It gives me a dope mein hit.
Now.
There are a lot of people who work in jobs where they get no dopamine out of their job at all. It doesn't mean I love every minute of it, but I find it very energizing and it's interesting to me. What I don't get done are a lot of the things that I really need to get done, like registering my car or cooking dinners that I just can't get done because there's never been any dopamine in it for me. So I think the way to know if you should do a dopamin detox or not, like anything, is your
life unmanageable? Like is it difficult? And when you both talk about how you feel when it's just a bit much, and then you do need to get back to that baseline.
That that's when my life becomes a money overwhelm.
It gives you something rather than going for a walk just doesn't give me anything, and I don't have time. You might need to recalibrate your levels of dopamine, but when you have ADHD your whole life, your every waking minute. It is about trying to manage your dopamine levels in a way that's constructive, not destructive.
Very interesting, Yeah, out Ladders.
Will put in our newsletter this week some links to a few articles about this, because as always, I mean, I know, we're not saying you should detox from anything like medical, but never do anything extreme or anything any wellness trend that you see on the internet without really looking into it, because it just might not be for you.
Will Taylor formally endorsed Kamala Harris or has she already?
When you say Taylor you mean.
Shere me needs the first name as opposed to the potential future president of the United States? Or has she already? In yesterday's subscriber episode, we unpacked all the latest from the US election. We want to know if you're interested in this, because we could talk about the US election all day. A lot has happened. Trump is losing his mind a little bit we've had.
I so love that you guys are on this train and that I'm back on it. So subscribers, we know that the US politics isn't for everyone. Tried making it a subscriber episode this week. Gosh, we had a good time. We'll put a link in the show notes if you want to have a.
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