You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Hello out louders, Holly here. If you're clicking on Friday show hoping you're going to hear a bit of an update of what's happening in Britain with the arrest of the man formerly known as Prince Andrew, you are not going to find that on this show. On this show, you are going to hear myself, Jesse and Claire Stephens having our usual Friday news free conversation that hopefully will send you into the weekend smiling.
But if you want to know about what's going on with Andrew, what I think about it, what happened, why now, what it means for the monarchy, all that stuff, obviously we'll talk about it on Monday. But also there is a special little episode in your feed, so go and check out that emergency meeting. Enjoy the show. Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the twentieth of February. I am Holly Wainwright.
I'm Claire Stephen, and I'm Jesse Stephens.
And with the two Stephens again.
Why was my name second? I know I noticed that Claire must have done the Yeah, yeah, that's weird.
Emily Vernham is still traveling, so I get the pleasure of the double Stevens. There's lots of the outloud has been commenting on how good it is to have you two together. The chemistry.
Yeah, well we delayed the other comments, don't we claim the ones you get kicked out of the group, so you be careful.
You have been working on that chemistry since the womb.
So yes, exactly.
Here's what's on our agenda for today. The most famous magazine editor in the world has sat down with her successor. I wrote predecessor on the notes I'm looking at That was wrong. She has sat down with her successor and they gave a very awkward insight into the generational divisions in your average office.
I have so many thoughts on that video, plus the thirty five new dating rules that have unsurprisingly started a fight in the comments section. Woot have you ever been on a date? Clip? Yes? Okay, think you have never been on a date? And our recommendations, including a new discovery that has legitimately changed my life.
But first, I want to imagine, like just for a little holiday for the brain, imagine being twenty one year old Apple Martin right with that face. If just in case anyone's confused about the words Apple and Martin being together, this is Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's daughter. She is for reasons that are not yet clear, but I feel are going to become clear, being pushed on the culture quite a lot.
At the moment, I think she wants to be an actor and in a band.
Yes, she wants to be an actor. I'm sure she's about to be in lots of things.
Apparently she had a rebellious streak which led her to law school for five minutes, and I was like, that's not what my rebellious stroke looked like. But now she's given up Laura, and she's like, jokes, I want to be an actor.
Yeah. And so she did a video for Vogue, like a getting Ready video, which actually I enjoyed because she starts with a completely bare face. She's one of the best looking humans on the planet, but she does have some pimples and some dark circles, and by the end she looks different, and I was like, oh, makeup love it anyway.
We'd all independently watched that video and had reminds yeah.
Yeah, anyway, the bit of it I want to talk about is a very relatable bit I think. Right, she talks about having bad skin when she was a teenager, But the unrelatable part about that is when your mom is Gwyneth Paltrow, she has some fixes up her sleep. This is what Apple said about her acne face.
If I have a pimple, it's not the end of my life. And my mom definitely gave me advice and like God bless her, she would ask all of her super goofy people about like where I should go visit I went to the dermatologist a million times. You find a good chill skincare routine and like, drink a lot of water, And honestly, the more that you stress about it, the worst it'll get. Most likely this is all stressed, so honestly, I think that everyone is still gorgeous.
Honestly, say, a chill skincare routine she does in this video is at least ten steps long, but still no shape to Apple, Lots of us have fancy skincare routines. But the bit I love about this is there's something about generation ex parents who cannot deal with their children having spots and who will if they have the resources, take them to the dermatologists, give them twenty five products,
consult as in this case, they're goopy friends. Now, is this our experience as children, that our parents were fixing our faces. We're different generations, but.
Still we are. And two of us had the same mother growing up, but in fact, I think all three of us had the same mother.
As Stevens.
Very similar people. But when it's Gwyneth Paltrow and your daughter's face is probably an extension of your brand being Goop, And like having good skin is critical to the way that you project yourself. I imagine that there is this kind of unsaid like sweetie, let's fix your skin up. Whereas with our mum it was like this is character built. What are you going to fix your face every time you hate something about it? It's like, well that, and it's actually the world we live in now, yes, And
it's like it's a slippery slope. As soon as you fix your skin, you'll have another issue cystic acne, and it hurts. And there was a new drug out on the market that I remember everyone was taking and Mum was like, no, no, no, we're not on principal character building. You are not to take that drug. She was so so against it. I remember watching those skincare ads and just saying, please, it will fix it. Britney Spears says
it will fix it. Why would she lie people? And in fact, this is you know recently we talked about petty hills will die on. This is my petty hill, you, Apple Martin, that's not acne. Two or three pimples is not acne. Acne is when it's like a whole part of your face. I remember a girl at school touching my forehead and going ooh bumpy because it was just
there was so many bumps, like acnees are real. It's painful and cystic, like it's a real It can be like a health issusue with hormones or to do with whatever, having three bumps like use some clear whistle.
Yeah, I get that. Although to be fair to Apple, she did say she used to have acne. She wasn't claiming to have it now. Good. But I want to speak for like the helicopter parents, not that I necessarily am one, but there are plenty in my generation. There is something even though we all know that it doesn't matter and our children are beautiful to us at all times.
There is something confronting because we all think our children are beautiful, right, whether they are, whether they're not, we all look at them and go, oh, my god, you're the most perfect thing I've ever seen. It's the perfect. There is something very confronting when they break out, like when they go through that very not you're suddenly like, my child is blemished. And I can see how the helicopters, the Queen helicopters, are like, this will not be happening.
And in defense of gen X mums, it's like, do you remember so vividly how awful it was the toilet took on your self esteem? And also it can scar, so it's like if you do have really bad skin, it can be something that you deal with for your entire life. So I understand getting involved, but I must say when I've seen instances where the mother says something before the kid does.
Something about like you've got to fix your diet darling.
Yeah, exactly right. I've seen lots of Facebook groups where on the one hand, it will be mum saying I've noticed my childhoods acne, what do I do? And that always frustrates me because, as we've learned from Apple Martin, and as we've also learned from Kendall Jenner, even if you have access to the best dermatologists, the best doctor, the best ski, all the goofy people, you're still going to get pimples. So skincare is capitalism, like there is only so much it can do. If you're a teenage girl,
you're gonna get pimples. And then the other thing I noticed that's sort of in the same world is parents saying I've noticed my child's put on weight.
What do I do?
Should I say that we only eat healthy food now? And you think, oh no, the complex that almost objectifying your child is going to give them when it's a phase the past.
I know, and you're one hundred percent right, but I'm just going to speak with honesty, and they can come up like you can't help, like you have eyes, you look at your child and we all know, like you don't mention it. You don't talk about weight, we don't talk about spots, we don't talk about external appearances because what's inside that matters. But you can see what's going on, and it takes a certain amount of discipline not to be likedars, did we eat a whole pack of lollies?
I'm just going to say it, like I'm just going to say it. I can just imagine Quinny doing that, and I can also imagine her going like, when we fix the acne issue, then Apple, we can take you on the red cap until all that time has come. Let's just pretend you want to be a private.
Let's pretend you want to do something boring like more.
My general experience of having now a sixteen year old and my friends who do is that we're all in awe of how good looking our kids are. Like kids are better looking than we were ever right when I was a teenager, I was not as good looking.
They have better skin. Is it skincare?
And when I say that, sorry, I don't mean to say like, oh, my daughter's good looking. What I mean is they just seem to know, like how to do their face. They don't seem to be wearing really embarrassing things.
We spoke at a high school at our old high school recently, and we looked out and we were like, hang on, this is not what it looked like. Everyone's skin was better. They know how to do their hair. Orthodontic work. I think has come a long way. If they're not taking the risks that we know they don't take. No, but like in a good way, in a classy way. Yeah, exactly right. I think they just get really good advice from TikTok.
It was one of the things social media is making their lives better.
You come here, I thank you. No, no, I don't have a hair. You have twins to get it.
Get it.
She can't get it obnoxiously. Can you feel it when I pull it? That's the first time I ever seen it, because I get one on my cheek that grows to like yeah, or I get one in the middle of my forehead that shows up overnight. But you've got one on your chain that's like a long whisker. But I don't think a camera will pick it.
For the record, Jesse has never picked me up what twins can do.
So I saw it. It was like blowing in the wind a little bit.
Yeah, okay, moving on.
Last week, the iconic Modern Love column in The New York Times published a list of thirty five new dating rules. The authors Maya Lee and Daniel Jones explained that thirty one years ago, on Valentine's Day, a book called The Rules was published.
Oh yes, it was.
Was that like a man book that all the men? No, no, it was later, so it was.
It was massive. I mean, not my thing, but it was massive and wing of the game. The Rules was all about playing hard to get, basically, don't call him back.
And it promised time tested secrets for capturing the heart of mister right. Some of those included things like don't talk to a man first, don't meet him halfway or go dutch on a date, don't tell him what to do, and don't discuss the rules with your therapist. That's always a red flot, which I'm like, yeah, no, that's getting people into an awful situation. The other one was don't call him and rarely return his call. Wait, this is setting you up.
For a ver you know, I watched I'm sure we'll talk about it at a later date, but I watched most of the first episode of that new show that's about Carolyn Bissett. Yeah, and this is set in the early nineties, right, and she is a rules girl, that's what we used to call them rules girls. And so she says he asked for her her number and she's like, no, not giving you my number, and he's like well, and she's like, you know where I work? Like it's that very.
Rules girl, Yeah, that ain't me.
It was like she says to her friend at one point in the beginning, why would he pursue you when he knows he doesn't have to? That is the rules.
So I would like to think that those rules are a little bit outdated. So according to the New York Times, there are new dating rules as crowdsourced from their audience, and there are some I'd like to discuss, and I'm sure there are something that you'd like to bring to the table. Rule one was don't be gross.
This broad, that's quite broad. How do we.
Feels really personally? Don't immediately talk about medical maladies that are gross and controllable.
So if em Vernon was here, let's be honest, she would immediately dislike that one. She would be like, he sits in the chair and I've told him about my vaginismus five minutes before, exactly and gross. I'm not saying it's gross, but that would fall into that.
Yeah, yeah, or like your lactose intolerance. I actually find health issues are really interesting topic of conversation, same recent surgeries, somebody might have like Crohn's disease, somebody might have like about like and I actually think a lot of the comments said this was ablest, and I actually am a little bit on board with that. But also, gross things are only gross if you think the person is gross. Yeah, if you think that somebody's hot, then nothing's groll.
That's just interesting, I reckon that's true of nearly all these rules, Like it's fine if they're hot, but you're right that it's ablest, but be honest, Like you don't really want on a first date for them to be talking about the klonoscopy or like the things that send them to the toilet at speed, Like I just think that is okay to save that.
We've all got those stories and they're fun, but you just hold them in your back pocket for a rainy day, Like I don't need to hear like Jake of a Lordie in an interview talking about and intolerance and the exact issue he's got and how many times it makes him go to the toilet.
Later that's later anyway, Sorry, Yeah, got caught up.
In that rule.
Number five roommates after age twenty eight, No room so and cost of living Christ Okay, so I'm not allowed to be poor.
I would not have got together with elderly boyfriend. That was the case when I met him. He was way too old to have flatmates, but he had flatmates. Like, it's the reality of the world.
And they're a vibe. What's your issue?
They give you people to bond about. Bitches. Yeah, you know what it's like.
Cool, they'll live alone in an awful apartment, Yes, in a studio part Yeah. Rule fifteen worrisome names. Avoid men who go by the childhood diminutive of their name e g. John who goes by Johnny nearly is rolling in her as they often remain child like as adults. You can't
police someone's name. You can't be judgmental, terrible everyone single. Yeah, I read these and just when you're too judgmental, you're all contradicting yourselves because there were a lot of rules that just went And this is a problem with rules is that then you get a new set and they're completely different. I just think if you're going in with that attitude, you're the problem. Yeah.
So, like I gave my kids, So my son's called Billy, and I have to admit that I did think Billy will be cute when he's little. When he's grown up, people can call him Bill. But what's the tipping point, Like, what's the tipping point between when you get rid of the y?
Like?
And also in Australia, we don't roll like that. We just put a Y on everything all the time. If he's Davy's Dave O, well oh in that case, and then like are we're not.
Allowed to and it's not his fault. His name's Billy, Like it's my fault, that's not his fault. Rule twenty three was the Jane Air test. Holy, I feel like you've got a lot of thoughts about this. If if they won't try to read your favorite book, how will they try to love and understand you?
Okay, there were some of these that I've taken a note with and I've said yes, full agreement, and some I like that you're play with you. There are some that I'm going full agreement and some that I've said absolutely, this is absolutely not I do not require my partner to read my favorite books. I'm allowed to like my things, and they're allowed to like their things, and they don't have to be the same in order for us to be compatible. Imagine if I mean, I guess it's cute.
I think, what's M's favorite couple Julipa and Callum, Yeah, Callum James bond that guy they bonded because they were reading the same book or he pretended to be reading the same book or something. And it is great. But on the other hand, like, imagine if I said Janeay's my favorite book and Brent Bread like, no, no, he would never read that book and he doesn't need to know.
And what am I meant to play Rory's favorite video games? And I'm meant to watch his chess YouTube video. I don't want to take an interest. I don't think dating should come with a reading list. No, I've got enough to do without more jobs.
No, there was something I really liked though. Don't change yourself for dating unless it's a change you would be glad to make anyway, like being tidier or drinking less, says Mary Rhodes, one of the people in this And I think that's a good rule because when we say never change for a guy or a girl, like, I totally support that. I don't think you should should give oneself a personality transplant. But somebody being a good influence on you is not a bad thing.
No, and you do sometimes you need a bit of encouragement, yes, and you do grow in the same direction, consciously or unconsciously, like if you've got a partner who likes to get up early, it becomes harder to sleep in. Like all of those little things would actually works.
Quite well, never guess that. Meantime, I had.
A few that I was speaking to some women in the office, and I also thought about ones that like rules I had when I was dating in my twenties. One is, ask yourself after the date if you felt like you were being yourself, because sometimes a date can feel like it went well, but then you go, oh, I don't I feel like I was putting it on a bit or I felt as though I couldn't quite be totally myself or give on a stancewers And I
think that's sometimes a hint. And I really liked this one, which is if it's a seven out of ten, like if it's lessane hundred percent, give them a second date, because no one's their best self on a first date. Things are weird, things are awkward. I'm a bit over the ick culturally and the idea that, oh, who was wearing these socks, or who's wearing these shoes or he
said this thing, and blah blah blah blah blah. If we are going to be that hard and fast about dating, I think we're going to miss some really good ones. So I reckon that, don't write people off to quickly. The other one was give yourself a drink limits why I wish I wish I had done that a few times.
That's why it's dangerous to do the meeting for a drink thing. Yeah, yeah, because you know, I totally support the meeting for dinner thing. Because when I was dating, and I was thinking about this when I was in my twenties, for gen X, dating wasn't really a thing. We just kind of bumped into people. Like all my relationships in my twenties are like you bumped into pople started hanging out. Dating apps have certainly obviously made a more American in my mind, dating much more of a
widespread thing. But in my thirties I was dating very early days of like online dating and stuff, and I made that rookie era about dinner more times than I should have, and suffering through because I think you're not compatible with as many people as you think you are, really, but you can overlook most of that if they're hot. But sitting through dinner with someone that you have nothing
to talk about with is yeah. But if you just go for a drink, one drink rarely stays at one drink, and then sometimes that's good times, but often it's like.
And you're just having a good time because of how much you've drunk, not actually because of that.
That's true. What do you think. I've got some questions for you about this because I've got some rules I think about the split bills because in this list there are like three different ideas about split bills, right, I think you should always split bills until you know a person, because if you don't know them, and particularly in the way the world is now, do they think that buying you dinner puts you in there? You know?
I hate the power dynamic, whether it's dating or friendship or even professionally. I don't like the power dynamic of somebody having paid for me because whether or not this is what they mean by it, I feel like I owe them something.
It's interesting because I was hearing and I know that he's a bit controversial on this, but you know, Scott Galloway has written this book about men. He's a big American kind of influencer, business guy, podcast host. He says men should, or he's told his sons always pay for dates because ultimately men always make more money because of the whole like you know, maternity tax, and so he's like, it's your duty as a good man to spend that money. I don't agree, but also I think always split until
you know them. Then once you know them and you're comfortable, then sometimes they can treat you and sometimes you can treat them, and that's fun.
I reckon the rule is, if you are on a first date with a man that you know there will be no second date, you are absolutely certain there will be no second date, insist on paying for half. I always felt really bad when they paid and then I went home and I was like, thank you, but like, I know there's not going to be another one. It just feels like you've left. There's an issue with the
equilibrium of the universe or something. So I think in that case, if they're going to pay the first one, then you can pay the second one because you want to see them again. The rule that I remember hearing this so often when I was dating, and I rejected it, and I rejected it, and then when things were right, I went, it's one hundred percent true is when it's right, you will feel calm, not anxious. If someone likes you, you'll know, and if they don't, you'll be confused.
One hundred and on that. Also, if they want to, they will. They will plud date, text you back, and you won't have to second guess. I think that it sounds brutal, but it's true. It's the truest of all the sex and the city isms. He's just not that into you. And it goes both ways. If you want to you will. If you want to textbaut you will. If you want to make the dates, you will. Like it doesn't have to be a one way street. But there's way too many excuses for like when people are
just not interested. Yeah, I want to know your opinion on this one because this is not really in my dating world. But leave on your texting read receipts. Oh, I don't. If they freak out about being left on red for less than twenty four hours, they are unlikely to respect your time. What do you think about that?
See, I think these like technological ones are just so specific to different people in their own context and that sort of thing. I do believe that you're right, Holly. If somebody wants to pursue a relationship with you, they won't leave you on red for twenty four hours, like then, They're not going to do that unless there's a family. And maybe he's a surgeon. Yeah, and he's got like a really the problem, ye problem, and he can't reply right now and you need to relax. Yeah, Well that's
what I was going to say. The one that I probably liked the most, and that feels like it's coming up a lot in life right now was Rule thirty, which is presence, and it says, don't try to reenact movies. You are not in a movie. This is your life. Just try to be present, be kind, and be yourself.
Did it make you think of Meredith? Obviously it made me think of Meredith's right, because there is a couple Luke and Mel, and Mel wanted the notebook the notebook, and she can't want the note no, and she wanted Bradley Cooper at the aisle and when just a mix up a film. Lu was just Luke. She was like this suck yeah, And I'm like, you're not in a movie, and honestly, you're not giving movie right now, you're giving a bit cranky. That's friendly.
She wants to be in the movie, but I have to make it effort. No, and the eternal when you should.
Have sex, okay, there is no rule there. There is no rule about this. You can have sex on the first date, you can have sex on the twentieth date. It will not impact whether or not the relationship goes forward. This is in my own life, in all my research, and of course from watching so many seasons have married at first sight. Having sex too soon can go wrong, waiting too long can go wrong. I just think, if the chemistry is there, go for it.
I have sex when you want to. If you like the yurn, drag it out. If you really just want to get into it, get into it. Like I think, it's an individual.
Sport that probably if you're in a long term relationship, every rule about human behavior and human decency will be broken. Yes, it will be better. That's what relationships are.
Yeah, there are some rules that are very important. How do they talk about their X that came up a lot in the office. If you go on an early date and they slag off their ex, get out of there. Their X might be the word person in the world, but you'll find that out if they go in with
that early That happened to me once. I was on a date in a young char restaurant with this guy and he started eating this really hot chili and he said one time his ex girlfriend really hated chili, and because she was such a bit, she put lots of it in her food. Okay, so you're a crazy, but I was out of there. And the other is if you are in an environment like a bar or a restaurant, how do they treat the staff. I know it's a cliche, but it has never steered me wrong. It has never
steered me wrong. Someone who is rude, dismissive complains immediately on an early date dickhead every time.
Which I think links to another rule, which is values over interests. So it's okay if you sit there and you go he's really into rock climbing, never going to read, and he's never going to read my Jane Eyre. That's fine. It's just the value alignment, which I think what people say are their values and what are actually their values aren't often the same thing. And the only thing that will reveal that is time, and it could be six
months on the track. But little indicators like that, like how they speak to even the person who drops off of Berretes, like even the way that they interact there. I just reckon. It's very, very tomb.
It's always a tell less of a tell. But in our office group one somebody said I don't date only children.
That was a popular, wasn't it.
That's not a thing you can say. And then and then people were like hold on, and then they're like no, no, I mean guys. And then there's a guy like oh but that's I'm like, you gotta watch out with that stuff.
I like it when people are really specific. The first one is like, I don't date and she just had three professions.
Was personal trainers, real estate agents. Like okay, that is experienced speaking right there.
My only other dating rule is to pluck your chin hair before you go on a date because it hits if it hits the light. It's my wedding anniverse three today. Do you think it's sexy?
Beyon?
It put a little bow on it. At least straight in it. Give me, I think it's gone.
You've never Oh my god, you too. They're like grooming each other like chimps over here.
Yeah I think I got it really Yeah. Yeah, I haven't been able to feel it. I would have liked to get it myself, because just to have a look at it, do you know what I mean?
Yeah?
I know, likew she's looking about it. Yeah, it's like, is it great?
Bad? I just need to know in a moment what two iconic editors sitting down together told us about intergenerational office politics.
Out louders, it's me and I'm interrupting your Friday out loud, no News Fix to fill you in on what we talked about in our subscriber episodes this week. On Tuesday, we talked about Wuthering Heights and what we thought of the movie. Listen to this before you go see it if you haven't already, and listen to it if you
have seen it to hear your views confirmed. On Thursday's episode, we had a great talk about Angelina Jolie's new reported boyfriend and the people who think she's too old for him, and it turned into a really interesting conversation about.
Women's Faces true story.
So if you're not already a subscriber, follow the link in the show notes and you can listen to both of those conversations right now.
So too Vogue editors sat down for an interview and it became a perfect representation of a generational office divide. On the surface of things, Chloe mirl the new boss of Vogue, is an absolute boss, right. She's like the editorial director. She's very cool, she's got famous parents, did a Dior She has recently been installed in Anna Wintur's old job. Anna Wintaur aka Miranda Priestley about to be back in the culture in a big way with Devil Wears.
Prior to Anna Wintour has not, however, retired or gone anywhere. She is still at Vogue too. She is what is called Global Chief Content Officer for Conde Nast and Global Editorial Director of Vogue.
So basically, so May she's just done that scene where she goes, I'm going to give myself a new title.
Yeh, she has. So she's still there, but she's not the boss boss anymore. Of the magazine day to day and the brand day to day, that's Chloe. So they sit down for this interview with The New York Times. It's all video, and Anna Wintour looks the way that Anna Wintour always looks, which is that she's wearing giant sunglasses inside, which is just beginning to look stranger and stranger and stranger.
She has seventy six It looks anti social.
Anna coat and boots and Chloe mirl and they sit there and they talk a little bit about, you know how it's all going at Vogue. So far, so unrelatable, right, But the video went viral for a reason that has less to do with fancy shoes and more to do with how different generations represent in the workplace. This is the bit that got everyone talking magazine budgets right in
this day and age. And when I say magazine, I mean obviously Vogue exists on all platforms now, podcasts, social, but they're famously not what they were back in the nineties. Everyone was being flown around the world to launch a lipstick. There'd be like five supermodels on a shoot in Tahiti, and then they'd spike it because it wasn't quite right,
like they were burning money, right. It was a wild time, and so the New York Times interviewer asks Chloe, what would you do with a ninety style budget at Vogue? And this is what she says, sitting next to her boss.
You've got me excited thinking about this now, sort of what would I do? I would build a whole new podcast studio. I would pay everyone thirty percent more. I would make sure the social team had more people on it because they're working all the time. I would have our app staffed more fully.
But to be clear, but we.
Have a very healthy budget at Vogue, and how we use it and use our resources as constantly changing depending on the moment. Okay, last question, the last time you felt nervous about thirty minutes ago before this interview?
Oh for me too.
I don't get nervous.
Anna doesn't get nervous.
I resent you for making me watch that. I found it so painful.
The vibe on that, don't you think right? Is that Anna Wintour was like calm down poppy dog the whole time. Now I hesitate to ask this question because I used to be both of your bosses at a certain point. But when you watch this, did you hard relate to being like new and enthusiastic in an office environment? And bumping into the old guard.
A little bit. I think there are a few things at play, but the overwhelming sense I got watching this video was Chloe's baut to Lizza Job.
I don't feel good.
I don't feel good about it. I don't think Anna is sold on her an. I can see that Chloe went out for drinks a little while ago. She tells a story about how she put the March issue together. Anna said it was great, and then at the last minute she pulled her in and was like, where's you in all of this? And she was like, I was so grateful for the feedback. No, you weren't. You went and got a drink with your friends and you went. Anna clearly always hated it. At the last minute, She's
making me redo the entire thing. She's a psycho bitch, like you said all of those things. This relationship is very complicated, and I think that it's generational, yes, but the biggest difference is that one of you has been doing it for thirty seven years and one of you has been doing it for five months. And it's an incredibly generous but also taxing thing to do to train someone. Where do you begin to teach someone what you've learned
over all of those decades. Chloe probably is naive and idealistic. And the way she was talking about budgets and oh bless them, I love so many thoughts.
So you used to manage people clak, right, So you were so Chloe.
It was like watching you next to me at the same time.
Right.
So the thing is about Chloe is that she's worked at Forger really long time. But she started as an assistant.
Worked away, started from the bottom, so.
She's done all the jobs, right, So she is still very much thinking like a worker, not a boss. That's one of the things you and anyone who moved up the chain at some point went from a work to a boss. But you have been on both sides of this because you're next to me, yes, Claire, because Claire used to be just for context, she used to be the editor in chief of Mama Maya. But also you had young journals coming into you being like I should get paid twice as much and why don't we fund
this more and why can't we blah blah blah. So you know both sides of this. What did you feel.
Watching I had two major thoughts. One was I have to be completely honest. When Chloe gave that answer, I thought, I don't know if that's leadership. There's no strategy there, like just saying I want to pay people thirty percent more and get a bigger social team and build a better podcast.
You do make sure your workers like you, though.
It makes staff. Yeah, it's exactly what your staff are going to want to hear. That would have been my answer when I first started as editor in chief. But over time you realize that it's sort of got to be bigger picture than that, Like you can still want all of those things. But Anna would have been having an annurs thinking what about the brand? What like? What about any of that is actually making us more profitable? What about any of that is actually special?
Team works so hard, which they do.
I will defend Chloe because she has If you look at her career trajectory, she's someone who came up through social media. See Anna has a and this was so mayor coded. In the first ten seconds, she just goes she's not a fashion obsessive. I was like, just Chloe, know's you. Chloe is like I quite like fashion.
Yeah. And also she was the editor of Vugue before she was the director so she does know a bit about fashion. Yes, that put the other bit that I'd love your thoughts because I think this is generational. Is when they talk a little bit about how Chloe's got kids, Anna's kind of like, yes, it's very important you should definite only prioritize your family, and You're just thinking bullshit.
There is a certain kind of boss who will be like, yes, it's very important that you are there for those children, but I still expect you to work till nine pm, and I will still be messaging you at bath time. And that was the vibe.
Man, Yes, may I suggest you get a full time nanny if you want to keep this job. But what I thought was interesting about that was Chloe saying like, it's so important for me to be available for people on the Vogue team and to my kids and my husband and my mother. And I thought that is the difference between millennials and the Anna Winters of the world, which is and I'm sort of torn on it because on the one hand, yes, there is this idea of bringing your whole self to work and to every aspect
of your life. But I also thought, Chloe, a man doesn't have to say that. A man in a leadership position doesn't have to say I bring all of myself to my mother, because in a business context, I don't care.
But there's also something something true about that, Like I thought it was very millennial coded, which was she was sitting there buzzing with this phrenetic energy of just like a woman who is dealing with little kids and who is dealing with a very very big job, and talking about I don't want to be intimidating when I go and pick my from school, and you can tell that. Anna Winter was like, why don't you want to be intimidating and.
Why do you think I'm sitting here at these ridiculous sunclass.
And Anna really didn't like when Chloe talked about her kid's lego. Okay, there was a bit where Chloe says, you know, we're building this incredible lego in our after Anna is basically like kids are important, and you can tell she doesn't mean. Chloe is like, my kid is building this lego, and Anna walks out of the room.
It's just like, oh, sorry, I don't give a shit about your flash to an image of the lego, and I was like, that's because Anna vomited and left the room and leg She's like, went less lego, more work. But on the other hand, the thing that I that really struck me about this was I don't think there is anything more annoying than the feeling that you're an expert in something and you're sitting next to somebody less
experienced and bear talking. It's one of the worst annoying things so well right, and yet that is the only way a workplace evolves, That is the only way progress happens. That is the only way a brand like Vogue survives because no offense and a winterur but we do need to pass.
And she would say that's exactly what she's doing. And the thing that's interesting because when you have been somewhere a long time, and you've been a boss a long time, you do have to sit there and they'll say I think we should all pay everyone better, and you're like, oh,
I never thought of that. It is that kind of an idea that is infuriating, but at the same time, thank God for that energy, because I think that there is a certain amount of recognition what she's trying to say there is I'm recognizing that, yes, I'm the figurehead, but all these people are doing all the work and out of window was like, that's not how we work around here. You are the figurehead and you get all
of it. I thought it was really interesting. It's interesting about the reaction to this because a lot of articles have talked about how awkward it was, how maybe there's a succession problem at Vogue, because, to be clear, and I doesn't look at her, Anna did pick Chloe, and one of the ways to read this not to dis Chloe. She's obviously a very accomplished person. She picked her, and one of the ways to look at this is she picked somebody who she could kind of push around a bit.
But it's interesting to me that they agreed to do that interview, that they agreed to have it filmed, that they didn't request a serious edit. She is a a wind. So clearly Anna Winter is quite comfortable with the way that she appeared in that, which is I think that's the other generational thing is like Ice queen scary boss is fine, and Anna's boomer to be clear, she's seventy six, Like she's you know, and I would be lying on a beach cout my money if I am. Anyway, that's
a very okay vibe for that. It's like, I don't want to hear your problems about whether or not you need to get home to play with Lego. Whereas Chloe was it pains to say I care about my staff. I care about whether or not they can pay their bills, and that is a very different generation.
There was Yes, I don't want to be intimidating. I want to be likable and I want to be relatable. That seemed to be central to her brand of leadership was that she really wanted to be liked by everyone in her life and keep them all happy. And whether that gets beaten out of you over years of doing it. I don't think that that pressure has always been on bosses or managers. I feel as though there's something maybe
a bit new about that. But she was focusing on being personable and full of energy and enthusiasm, whereas Anna Wintour was like, no, that's not what I've ever been about.
I love what particular thing I love about that. In terms of the ice Queen is so that. At another bit in the interview, they asked Chloe Mile who she'd most like to sit next to at the mcparlor. She says, Meryl streep, which is a great answer, because that is Miranda Priestley. Anna went to a has a little as much as Anna wentor would ever chuckle. She almost chuckles. I think she has no problem with the Miranda Priestley stereotype, that she is hardcore, a task mascut, an unfeeling person
who you know, couldn't remember her husband's name. I think she's fine with it, you know.
And by the way, I am very staunch on the fact that I think our ideas of leadership need to be broader, and that that idea of a very narrow, intimidating view of leadership needs to be replaced by people who are more empathetic and people who have more of a three sixty kind of perspective. And i've female leaders that you get to be all types. Yeah, there shouldn't be one type. And I quite like that they're both sitting there, probably resenting each other.
I like that she has curly hair. I reckon Anna would have been like, darling, don't let that happen.
Anna hated her out. I had to have had so many thoughts. I came across a TikTok the other day that read, when you finally get a husband and a house. That was a text on screen and it was a video which like, would be nice, I imagine I know exactly husband and a house. And it was a video
of a woman throwing her boxes just into the garage. Again, would be nice to have a garage cardboard box, just cardboard boxes, so they will imagine like a cardboard box that a package has come in, not folded down, not broken down, just tossing it in slow motion into the garage and believing in her heart that it is her husband's job to fold them down and dispose of them. Now, we don't love sexis stereotypes on this podcast. We're about equality,
we're about feminism. But I'm going to posit a theory that this actually might be universal human instinct. We're all feminists until there's a job we don't want to do, in which case midnight is none of my business. Luca has asked me why he puts the bins out, and I have said I wouldn't know how. Again, again, would be nice to have your own bins to take out. We have shared bins. Who takes that? I don't know a lovely man man, but you have to take your rubbish from your house to put it correct?
Whose job is that?
I'm actually great with rubbish, And I have a lot of thoughts. How do you know where to put it? Are you joking? Wait?
I mean put it in the red top in or the yellow top in.
But I have a lot of thoughts about this box thing because hard can't relate. I'm the box breaker down in our household. For a very important reason, my biggest fear in life is getting in trouble, especially publicly, especially by strangers. Yeah, Jesse, I got in trouble recently in public. You were there? Yeah, I don't stop thinking about it.
Well, can we hear that story? Please?
Oh God? Okay, you know I've been I've been scared to say it because I'm worried that anyone listening will have been there and will be on the side of the person who got me in trouble. But we're at an mm MEMA concert and I was having a lovely time with Matilda and we were dancing, but a lot of people were sitting down and I stood up for one song to dance. I think it was Jellyfish Blob.
Mantilda stood up and dance. It is her favorite and a woman came up behind me and pat me on the shoulder and said, there is a scene of children who can't see you because you have been standing up the entire time, which she hadn't. And it was also a lot of people were standing up. The next song, every man in the audience was man in the audience was invited to stand up by Emma. Memma. Whichever dad had the best dance won a five hundred dollars Bunnings voucher.
And I just took a video and I just sent a message to Rory being like the dad's get a Bunnings voucher, mum's getting yelled at. I'm still so mad, darling.
You're short. I've been blocking anybody's view for very long and I was hunched. That's not fair.
Tilda wasn't blocking anyone's view anyway. I just can't stop thinking about it. But it's my biggest fear getting in trouble. So Rory and I both fast and loose people with like we don't pay attention to detail to anything, And so I know if he does the boxes, he will just kind of shove him. That's how I do the boxing. Yes, but I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble. So I get all the sticky tape off because I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble for not getting
the sticky tape and then ruining all the recycling. So I get all the sticky tape off. But the most important thing is in case I've made a mistake, I remove the label that has our name yes, and I don't identifying yes, because I'm like, what if somebody looked at them? Oh, and I can see their names and their address, and then they'll knock on our door and say what's wrong with you? So I do it all and then actually late at night, if our bin's full,
I go to the other bins on the street. Of course you do, and put it in what we do, which I also have a question.
That's not allowed?
Okay?
Yeah? Is it?
Like is it not a loud ethically or legally?
The best time, the best time that that is definitely not allowed is around the Christmas period when everybody's bins full, but you're looking all week to see who's bin looks less full, who you can smuggle.
All your Surely it's allowed on midnight as all society, What are we meant to do when the bins' problem.
I mean, I do sneak my stuff in other people's bins. I'm sorry, but you know I live next door to some lovely retired people. They don't make as much mess as we do, so I need to distribute the mess. However, and I appreciate your story, Claire, because I also don't like getting in trouble. However, I hate breaking down boxes.
And the reason when I saw this video it made me laugh out loud is because Brent will say all the time, he'll go to the little recycling bit of our bin what we have in the kitchen before we take it out to the big bin, and he'll be like, do you know that you're meant to break down the boxes because I've just thrown it in there every time it's in the whole thing Like no, I mean always like, yes, you gotta break down the boxes, and I'm just like, oh, out of the box. They're fun is over.
This is when you have to go brand show me hand and then you have him show you and then you make a big fuss about how good he is and you say you're so handsome when you break down the Yes, my favorite comment on this video was. I asked my wife one time what she was doing with all the boxes in the garage, because there was just all these completely assembled boxes in the garage, and she looked me dead in the face and said, they're ready
to go out whenever, which I think is exactly right. Well, when are you're gonna break it down and put them in them? So confused? I've done my bit exactly?
Is that?
The way this falls into like typical gender stereotypes is people used to say, well, she does the cleaning because she really likes it, yes, which is true for about zero point one percent of the female population. She does the fucking cleaning because she's expected to do the cleaning. There must be some if we are playing along these straight gender roles, there must be some men who love breaking down my hair out in the garage, having the time of their life breaking down those boxes. But most
people in general hate breaking down boxes. And if only we could train the doc Bak children.
Or worst Job and Luca, I am convinced, has absolutely no idea how to get a dinner in a cover. That can be my job. I'm happy to do that, but boxes none of my business. It's time for our weekly recommendations from a new pair of pants, to a course, to something that might just change your life.
Vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something actual, something fun.
This is my best recommendation. It's Friday, so we want to help set you up with our very best recommendations. And I'm a bit ashamed by mine today because I'm on the recorders. I'm a little bit anti ai, a bit of a light eye. I know there are environmentals. I'm friction maxing all the rest of it. However, this week I am moving house, and as previously discussed on this podcast.
I had a lot of boxes to break down, a lot.
So true, that's why I can't be at home. Yeah what do you do with those? Oh Facebook marketplaces?
Yeah?
Yeah, and you can pick them up. So I've previously discussed this that I can't picture things in my head. So when I look at a living room and I go, okay, so we have our couch, and we have our coffee table, and we have our blah. I mean, don't get me started on dimensions, but actually picturing what it looks like, I can't do it. So I've always been when I move house, very into Pinterest. I like looking at things that are kind of a similar setup, and I go,
what would look nice here? And it's all time consuming. I get it wrong a lot. Claire and I remember years ago we bought a couch that was too big for the room. You buy something that you think looks lovely, and then you go, that's hideous screen couch in here doesn't look nice. I've been served ads for these AI tools that do it for you, and I just went screw it. I'm going to spend an afternoon teaching myself
how to use this. So you're putting interior designers out of work, is what you're telling designer.
I wasn't.
I was just gonna make mistakes. So I used all of them to work out what was the absolute best, because there is a big difference between like the free models and the PAYE tell me what you tell them. Okay, So I take a photo of walked into this living room, which is just an interesting shape. Right. So I take a photo of the living room. I send it to my robot and I say, this is a living room. Oh it makes you describe your style like, yeah, exactly.
I don't know what you said.
I said, modern minimalist, Scandinavian.
I don't know what because I always find that interesting when they asked that, because I tried to do this with a bathroom thing, because we're thinking about doing a bathroom that's the laundry turn into a bathroom. And it said what style, and I said beachy.
Word.
It was just like starfish fish everywhere. I'm like, no, I need to know the language anyway.
Yeah, if I don't say minimalist, it has like eight throws. I don't like too much of my face. So I was like, okay, do this. It came up like its idea of where to put the couch in this room the way that it was able to because then I had to go shopping for a few things. It could calculate the dimensions, it could show me how it will look with this piece of furniture. It suggested a color of couch that I would never have imagined anyway. So
I've used all of these tools. The best one that I have come across is actually chat GPT the paid version, and my friends is actually quite expensive. It's forty five dollars a month. It's forty five dollars a month, but and it's not I've've got.
All my favorite sexy shows on it.
No, it doesn't exactly. I was like, that is more than my Netflix. What you would do is you want to do your bathroom, just get it for a few weeks, do everything you need to do. It is unfortunately worth your freezing. Can you tax deducted? Well? I can because I just mentioned it on this show. Yeah, so I just mentioned it. Pulling back you say that sounds like a great idea, and Claire, you say, I'm about to download, and I think we're right. Okay, I think it has
other exciting things. But it means that you can keep uploading images. And also I didn't realize this, but a lot of furniture shops now if you walk in and you look at a couch that you like, you can scan your room and it'll put the couch in there. Yeah.
You know, I wonder if it ever negs you, because you know how I was talking about when I was using the robots about my protein and take and stuff, and sometimes it's like we haven't tried very hard.
Today.
One of my friends has been using chat to GBT for her house. Yeah, and she'll say to the robot, like, what would this look like with the green wall and the robot's like, are you sure it's yes, and then the robot gives her a green wall and then my friend egsit back and it's like, that looks awful if you've not got a better shade of green than that. And then the robot's like, fine.
What's horrifying is how quickly you become quite mean to the robot. So I was using a free version for ages because I didn't want to pay, and I was like, please just move the couch back and ninch, move it, ninch, and it was like, I'm going to turn it into a curve, not an l shape. Just started hallucinating, yeah, and it started throwing coffee tables on the ceiling, and I was like, I've had it with you.
Do we think how you talk to your robot is going to be one of the dating rules in the next round of them.
That's not going to reflect well on me. I got very impatient. I started not using full sentences. Yeah, yeah, I like using it like a search engine. Yeah, and I doesn't appreciate it. Claire, what's your recommendation? My recommendation doesn't put real people work. I'd just like to say, so mine is the rider's studio. We have officially entered the Year of the fire Horse, and the out Louders
are a creative bunch. So if you've ever wanted to write a novel, or a screenplay or a short story, I have this reco because I get messages from people all the time because I must have written about on substack or something that I use this course, and so people messed me all the times. I thought, I'm just gonna say what it is. So it's called The Rider's Studio and it's based in Sydney. But all the courses I've done have been online, and I've done three of them.
I've done an Unlocking Creativity course, which I would recommend to anyone no matter what industry you work in. It just makes you a better writer. I've done the short Story Genre course, and it teaches you how to write in genres you might not be familiar with. So I've written a fantasy story, the wor I've ever read. Then.
I have done the novel first Draft course and stick to it perfectly because I already had written most of my manuscript by then, but some of the tools and strategies it holds your hand as you write a whole If you're like, I want to write a novel, but I don't have the discipline. This will get you your eighty thousand one week by week, it takes you, and you're with a group.
And so that's my word.
But it's like anonymous, like because it's online, you don't know who any of the other people are. It's so fascinating because you look at other people's writing and you think there is a nuggative gold in everything somebody writes, like and you see it get stronger, like something like writing a screenplay. I would think I don't know where to start. I don't know the structure. And this literally,
week by week you've got a tutor. It's bloody incredible. Also, I was going to say that, depending on what you do for work, your workplace might cover it as professional development or it might be a tax deduction. But I just think out louders there are so many great ideas and so many creatives in this community that if it's one of those things you've always wanted to do, we got a year of the horse says I gotta stop thinking and we just do it.
Yes, So that writing courses always frightened me because you have to share even though I've written books, I'm like, I can't show people.
And it's real, it's a real early draft. And then someone criticizes you and like who even are you?
And then you read their things like, oh damn it, that's really good. Yeah, anyway, great record, Claire. I'm recommending something much more basic, a pair of pants, so I need I'm in that phase again. I get in it all the time where I have no idea what to wear. Maybe this is about the shedding the year of the Snake, but you know, I'm like, I always wear jeans. I've been wearing jeans for years. I love my jeans, my
cream of jeans, my flairy jeans, blah blah. But I'm beginning to go really like we you can't change it up, but I don't know what to wear. And then I saw in a newsletter from an old friend of mine, actually from Joe Elvin. She's a magazine person and an Australian magazine person who lives in London. But in her newsletter recently she said, this is the best pair of pants that ever existed. I was like, okay, and they're from
Uniclo and they only cost sixty dollars. Get in so Mia is gonna laugh so hard because they're barrel legs, and she was wearing the barrel leg jeans and trousers were cool like two years ago, I think, And now the normies like me who do not understand them are getting onto these like pared down versions of the barrel leg. But I don't care. I'm not cool, I'm not pretending to be.
So what's the widest point on a barrel leg?
So it's sort of very flattering.
Midfie went great, it goes down.
But these are for reasons I don't understand. I mean, maybe they're not. I don't know. No one told me differently. They are comfortable and flattering, flattering that word we're not supposed to use anymore. They're their flattering, then they're probably not at all flattering, but the point being you feel good in them. So I bought a pair in chocolate brown, which is a tricky color because there aren't that many
colors I feel like I'm wedding with. But they also do them in dark gray black cream, like a beige color. And the thing that's good about them is they are barrel leg but they're not like really barrel So what they do is they give you just a hint of I look a little bit cooler than I did yesterday when I was wearing my tracky pants.
I need to know about the waist is it?
It's not a lastic, it's quite high wasted, okay. And the thing I like about Uniclo is that they do short legs because of us being short people. Whenever I buy pants, I often think, well, I'm gonna have to get them taken up and that might never happen, and then I've just wasted money. And so these ones are cut quite short and you can choose a different size length and lots of uniclothes pants. So anyway, I bought
them a brown. I really like them, and so now I've also bought them in the cream because I think maybe they're my like pathway to like just changing the style up a tiny bit. So we'll put a link in the show notes, as we will with all our echos.
Love it.
That is all we have time for this Friday and this week out Louders, thank you so much for being here listening to the number one podcast in all of Australia. Gosh, you have excellent taste.
Thank you to you.
Chleas Stevens for filling in for em VERNA thank you and a.
Big thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Sashatanic, our senior audio producer is Leah Porgies, video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovich. Bye Bye, Mumma acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.