The Bennifer Divorce Unpacked

You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud and to our Friday's show where we take a break from the news cycle and breathe out.

Today.

It's Friday, the twenty third of August, and I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm mea Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today getting dumped and getting over it? Do celebrities know more about heartbreak than civilians?

J Love Jaylo, one.

Of our reporters found out, and we have our own advice for her fashion icon. Jesse Stevens has a clothing recommendation, I want you all to watch a free TV show. And Mia has a book she loves that she thought she'd hate. And absent spouse is an unexpected slumber party and some vomit. No, it wasn't me.

A Freedman's logis night.

It's our bests and worse of the week. But first, Jesse Stevens.

In case he missed it, there is a word you can no longer call your colleague. Maya, are you listening.

Well, there's so many there are I am I allowed to use the S word even though I do use it as a term of effection.

Get your pen out and write this down. And Ossie mayor named Tom Tate has now formally apologized for a word he used to describe a colleague. He thought it was a lighthearted comment, but it ended up prompting a full blown investigation. So what did he call MP John Paul Langbrook? He called him a ranger In a press conference, Tate said, you know, lose one ranger, get another ranger. What the hell that's what the Gold Coast is all about. I don't understand.

He's so hashtagged at diversity. Yes quite Gold Coast.

Tom Tate did. But the Office of the Independent Assessor we're not impressed in its determination. They said. While the conduct may well be argued to be in jest or intended to be humorous, it was considered that the term ranger was still capable of being discriminatory and unreasonably causing offence to particular groups. The complaint was also said to raise various concerns about the use of the term, including its reference to orangutanks.

The person who was called a ranger. Was not the one that complained. It's because the mayor put this on a light outed Facebook post with a picture of this guy is made, I think, and other people complained about it.

So what do you think, ma'am? Do you think that you have the right to call an employee a ranger to their face?

I would never because I think you've got to listen to the people who are the thing, the rangers. You have to listen to the rang well, well, whatever happens to me, whether you say something is offensive or not, you kind of And also they're not a monolith. There's lots of people with red hair who have different views. All the people that I've spoken to speaking to think it's fine and take it as a compliment. But I think it's also how it's intended.

Speaking of, we are asked a few people in our office who do have red hair. Maybe that's even offensive to spot them out and say, can you tell us what you think about this term? But we asked them if they thought little terms maybe yeah, if the term ranger is offensive, And here's what they said.

Not remotely. I'm very comfortable with being a ranger. I'm very comfortable in my own skin about being a ranger. I refer to myself as a ranger. However, it depends who's saying it and in what context. So it's like I wouldn't go around the office and say hello baldy or hello big nose or whatever. So if I know someone and they refer to me as a ranger, that's absolutely fine.

But it's just common sense.

Well, on the one hand, I can see why, you know, these kind of negative stereotypes like gingers being quick to anger. I don't really want these dorogedy phrases flying around. But then on the other I'm not a big fan of linguistic policing in general, so this news does, of course instantly send me into a fiery rage.

I don't care. I could not care less if someone called me a ranger. It depends, Like somebody could say you're a ranger, or like, oh, my friend who's a ranger with warmth, and I'd be like, that's nice. But if someone used it as like your ranger as an insult, I'd be like, get a better insult.

Honestly, I don't mind. If someone wants to call me a ranger. You can call me a ranger, you know, It kind of depends on who the person is. If you're going to say it in a disrespectful way, like you know, it might not be appreciated. But also, like Tim Minchin says, like only a ginger gets to call another ginger ginger. So there's that too, Holly.

Would you use the term ranger?

No, I wouldn't, but I grew up in a ranger house. Ranger is an Australian thing, right, We don't use it in England. What you call red hair from England? A ginger in England? Who call him the ginger?

And is it a term of endearment.

So it's very similar to ranger in that it can be fine, but it can also be a little bit if people are calling you a ginger x you know.

What I mean? Ah?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it can be Yes.

Yes, my dad had red hair, my brother had red hair. My hair used to be quite red, and my kids have red hair because there's also red hair on Brent's side. And my daughter gets called ranger as her nickname at school.

Did she mind her?

I don't know that she loves it, but I think she has decided to accept it as a term of endearment, which I think is often what you do, don't you when somebody starts calling you a name, and you decide how you're going to handle it. But I think that's because, as we discussed last week, she's called Matilda, and there are about ten other Matilda's in her year, so they all have a nickname, and so she is rang and Matilda.

I wouldn't use it. I don't think I've ever used it to describe someone or at school. I think that it could be seen as a bit of a derogatory term to describe someone. I don't think it's on par with sort of racist or homophobic language, like obviously that's a different thing. I think it's funny that this has been.

A trigger warning.

In the workplace. She just can't comment on what people look like. It's taken us a long time to get me up to speed with that exactly.

Nice call you, blondie, until just reach because I couldn't remember your name.

Okay, I want to talk about being dumped, and not only because of Jlo, but also a little bit because of Jaelo. As we talked about on Wednesday, this has been the week that we were told officially what we all have known for some time, which is the greatest love story of our time, which was the rekindling, And

Why did they break up whole?

Well, I know why you think they broke up.

I pull it.

All very squarely.

Changed my mind.

I know Ben so well. It's definitely his fault.

I actually think it is. The easy read is that she wanted to be in the spotlight. She turned their relationship into content. She loved a red carpet. But none of that's new. I actually think that maybe it was him. He's well known to have suffered from addiction issues.

What makes you think, Holly, that Jlo was dumped. Well, I don't know.

You're right.

I don't actually think that she was necessarily dumped. I think she was probably like, we can't do this anymore. But Ben affleck and again, this is such speculation, but it probably pokes something in me and lots of women. I know. He strikes me as the kind of guy who he loves it and he hates it. He loves it and he hates it.

Do you know what I mean?

He loves Jlo's jay lowness, but very often douchebag dudes. I'm just going to say it. The thing that attracts them to you is also the thing that repels them from you. And I reckon that he thought he could handle Jaelo, but he can't handle Jaylo.

He's just not up to it.

Her sun shines too brightly.

He's not mad.

I'm feeling very protective of my friend Jlo. I don't know what happened, but emotionally, I feel like I'm gravitating towards Jlo. I do, but I was apprehensive. I think that when we tell our love story, the love story of our life, to the world, the.

Greatest love story never told that we've told a lot.

Yeah, So I think that when we make our documentary, and when we also make our film and our album all about the love story, that it's bad to tell. I think it's bad juju. There seems to be We've talked about this before, an inverse correlation between how much we declare our love from the rooftops and maybe what's going on behind the scenes. I see this all the time, and I just think we gotta be careful because once we say I've found the love of my life, look

A source told people, and we all know that the sources who speak to people are really the celebrities. She tried really hard to make things work and is heartbroken, and I believe that. I think Jalo is heartbroken. I've seen her on a yacht this summer quite a lot, this northern summer, quite a lot. She was looking great in the swimsuit, drinking champagne on a yacht, but you could see any sadness in her eyes.

What's interesting about Jlo is that I mean. The divorce papers show that the separation occurred on April twenty sixth, which was four months ago. She relaunched before she filed for divorce. Because it's been very interesting the way she's handled these few months. It's been summer in America, she's gone to the Hamptons, and she's done a lot of papwalks. Now, Jlo loves a papwalk. Nothing wrong with a papwalk. Explain what a papwork is.

I might take issue that she's done a lot of papworks, but a papwalk is like a deliberate showing for the paparazzi where you either pre arrange it or you go somewhere that you know they're going to be. So, you know, if you're a famous person and you choose to go to the hot spot in the Hampton's for lunch where you know the photographers are going to be, then it's

That's true, but celebrities of that level like Taylor Swift, Beyonce j Loo that perhaps only photograph you when you want them to kind of you cannot away them. And I'm not again, this sounds like I'm saying it's her fault or I just think it's a really interesting strategy and a very Jalo strategy, which I'm here for. She's trying to take control of the narrative. That's why I don't think it was her choice to end. I think it was his fault. As much as breakups can be

You don't think though, because this is going to be the dominant narrative everyone pedals, and that we've heard from the beginning is that poor Ben doesn't like the spotlight.

He is such a misogynistic narrative that I was part of, and I have regrets.

I do exactly what he was getting. Yeah, he waited us seventeen years ago, and that was the narrative that he spun over why they broke.

Up that time.

But and this is what that narrative will say. Even Jlo was like, we're going to do it differently this time. We learned a lot of lessons. It was the media that split us. That's what they both said about last time. And then then was on a podcast recently, like in the last month six weeks where he said, you can photograph me, you can photograph j Loo, but when you photograph my kids, you're crossing the line. He basically said

That his kids, and you're right, that was one of the narratives, except that his kids, who were very publicly with j Loo in the Hamptons since the breakup, and they also don't need to be photographed if they don't want to. So it's been really interesting watching everybody give their message by what photos they're in, where they are, who they're with.

I'm not a poor Ben guy. I think he's a very talented, very tortured, probable pain in the ass to live with, like Jennifer Garner, like there is no one more delightful on the planet.

What about that quote that she gave about him? And she's been very discreet since the divorce, but she said, to paraphrase, when Ben shines his light on you, it's warm and beautiful, but it's very cold in the shade. Yeah.

And also the other thing about the narrative about the fame is it suggesse he has no agency, Like we keep talking about that documentary. He was a co producer on that documentary about their relationship. He chose to be in it. He didn't have to do any of that. As if we really think he was surprised to walk into his house and see them going through his love lit like, I don't buy it. Anyway, I have.

One more question to ask just on Jloh and Ben, because everything we know about relationships is through the prism of benefit. I think we can agree that's true. And the age old question is does anyone ever really change? Because that was what everyone thought, is that they were each other's the love of their life. I heard that from their own mouth. The media broke them up the first time the second time, this was meant to mean. What we all learned from that was people can change.

I think they have amazing sex, and I think that that can pluster over a lot, and it can also make you think that you feel a way that you don't or that you can overcome things that you perhaps couldn't before. The sex can be confusing.

Georgia for the sex, like I don't buy.

No, but I think it makes them think and feel a whole lot of things. But then eventually you're not having sex three times a day, and you've probably had some ut eyes, and you know, you can see things more clearly.

Let's get away from the UTIs and back to celebrity break up wisdom. So a little story for out louders.

One of the very.

Talented people who works here at Mama Mia. She's called Live James. She was a social producer and she was at the logis on Sunday night. As you may have heard me or what she's barely talked about it. I don't know if you would know, but Live James was on the Red carpet, and unfortunately for Live, something had happened to her that morning that was not what she was expecting. Here's Live telling us what happened to her the morning of the logies.

Okay, so basically, I was in this situationship with a guy that I'd been seeing for a little while and it was, you know, everything was going smoothly, but then it came to this abrupt ending that was quite brutal on the morning of the logis and I still had to rock up to work, and I thought to myself, what can I ask these celebrities that can help me

So liv decided to ask.

Because she's a professional, I need to put on the record speaking of Ben Affleck, douchebag move to dump your girlfriend on the morning of a very big professional so true.

She had the logis that night could you not wait until the next but you could have.

That's a bit of a narcissistic thing to do, anyway, live.

That person has been dragged by every possibly should.

This poor person anyway? So liv asked the famous people their advice to get over heartbreak. I hope Jayla's listening to this. Here's some of what the famous people said.

You're so much as my daughter.

Sious relationship at five. Do not look at another person until you're thirty five minimum.

From what you learn from it, and if you grow from it, that's awesome.

Don't take your baggage.

Into the next one.

Does run up this guy that's just letting me up there tonight. Yeah, I'll be short term sad. And it's nice to be short term sad if it meant something to you.

If you're not.

Sad means the relationship meant nothing, which is actually a terrible thing.

Do you know what. It always feels like shit now, but it just gets better. I've got a quote from Winston Churchill.

If you ever find yourself going through hell, just keep going.

Yeah, worthy of you.

You do your thing, You treat yourself fine, and you get on the flow.

That's something you don't want to hear time see the only thing in my experience.

They're really here.

So James Stewart is the last voice you heard there, who was walking in a very benefit moment. He was walking the red carpet for the first time with Aida Nicodemi on his arm. Who's in that ladder? Hiada? She was very excited to see live and they gave some good advice. What he said after that, though, was something about getting drunk, which I think is also fine. Do celebrities know a lot about break up wisdom? Were the best there? And what would yours be? Mare freedom?

The advice that I gave live at the Logis where I was.

Was as a famous person, as a celebrity. Some might say the.

Only interview I did no one else did, and it's only because I'm live boss and ask me questions. But the advice I gave was you get a fringe.

I'm glad you didn't say that.

You should have done locked at a Really seriously, did you need to bring your personal life?

That's like true boundaries leave boundaries. I yes, said get a fringe and get a haircut due and also buy clothes for your feelings, because I think when you look in the mirror. You want to see someone different to the person who was in that relationship and who got dumped, and I think that that is always a good thing.

I need to prosecute the hair comment because I reckon if you go to the hairdresser, we don't get a fringe and you say, give me a fringe and give me a pixie cart, I think the hairdresser is legally obliged to say, have you been doump in the last twenty four to forty eight hours, and if you say yes, and they have to say.

No, I think you just need to say, very good point, Jess. You need to say I need a break up, haircut and a hairdress A good hairdresser understands what that means. It understands explicitly, not give me a pixie cut or a fringe. I was joking about the fringe kind of but it means that you need to glow up.

Buy some clothes for your feelings is the most mere Friedman sentence I've ever heard, and I really like it.

I get that some people eat their feelings. I buy clothes for my feelings.

My advice to.

Live, not that she asked. I'm not famous enough but would be to wallow. My thing is like, you get a wallowing window, and I think that how long that is is dependent on how long the relationship was. So if it's a four week situationship, you get like an advent calendar sized window, like a teeny window.

Like four hours, Like what do you think like a week?

Maybe?

Because four weeks that's twenty five percent.

I disagree with you on this, continue and then I will.

Like you're married for five years.

When I say wallowing, I'm talking about you know, not getting out of your pajamas, maybe drinking too much, maybe ordering lots of food in eating chocolate, and crucially talking your friend's ears off. They give you this window, I think of a certain amount of time that they have to tolerate, that it's part of the contract of your relationship, and then at one point they have to cut it off.

It gets to a point where you're like, okay, it's time to move on.

Now you have to just take that pain and shove it really really far down, really suppress it, turn it into a hard little pebble that you can say throw like a kidney.

Stone that you have to we out of your WII home.

Manchester.

They really hurt a lot when you pass the kidneys and they're gone and you feel sober and you can keep them in a jar, maybe a roof with like experiences I lived through on the jar.

Heartbreak is not like a kidney stone, not even a little bit.

He wrote a whole book.

I wrote, I'm the expert.

You are the actually forgot that I am. But they were quite serious breaker.

Well, Holly, if you'll recall, at the end of that book, I wrote about a heartbreak that I experienced and guess what it was a situation ship. It was one of the worst heartbreaks I ever had, was with someone I wasn't with for very long.

Why is that? Do you think?

My theory is that you only have hope, you only have how you imagined it to be, and you're at that early stage of infatuation where you've started playing out all of the amazing things that are going to happen, and then when you sit there to be like, oh, I'm now going to write the list of all the things I hate, You've got none because you never knew them well enough.

You're letting go of a dream relationship rather than a relationship itself, where it's like I love Luca.

If we broke up tomorrow, I could write a long list of things. Yeah, So there's more like fodder for my breakup to.

So, as the person who wrote the book on heartbreak, Jesse Stevens, what's your advice for live?

My advice is that you need to have some sort of ritual because my problem with heartbreak is that it is a type of grief that we don't have any ritual force. So yes, and when there's grief, in the case of a funeral, that's a very specific experience that people rally around you. You wear a specific outfit, yeah, and you go to a thief for your feelings. And I wasn't thinking of the outfit. I was more thinking of the church or the ceremony. But yeah, you also

You know, I think she's angry and defiant now. Yes, I think she's past the weeping. True.

Okay, two months ago she was like not a lot of weeping. Yes, Matt Garla Knight. She went home and she just went Remember our wedding in Vegas. What a lovely night. And it was because I was with Ben. And I'm not going to have those fun times anymore. Because Ben is no longer with me.

My heart's broken again again.

Ben actually posted social media that night he was getting changed into his tux at a toilet. He doesn't normally do that. She would have been like, he posted social media for me exactly, and look what happened.

The humiliation though, there's humiliation in every breakup, really, or a sense of failure or rejection if you're the one who's been dumped Jesse, do you think that idea of writing a list is actually a good thing of all the reasons. You remember Dolly Algiston's good material about a breakup, and the ongoing thing in that book is writing a list of all all the reasons that it's good that you've been broken up with.

Yes, well, and all the things that weren't right, because it's breaking up. If you really think about it, there are absolutely reasons it wasn't right. But when you look back on those positive memories, you've got to remember that you were there too, that you were part of those memories, and you're still here so you can still have fun, and whether it's with another person. Like last time Jaylo was in Paris, she had dinner under the Eiffel Tower

With her Clever Counsel with Trevor Noah Celestial Counsel.

Exactly, bring them with your friends, like Malone post Malone can come true.

What do you think you two about the advice that the best way to get over someone needs to get under someone else.

I don't think it's the most terrible advice in the world.

Look, I mean.

It's an effective strategy, but it's a risky because sometimes you just transfer to in print you in print or the other thing that happens is that next day when that person's left, you're like, oh, I'm still here in this pain and that was fun for a minute, but now yeah.

So two things I reckon. You've got to be careful.

It's so bad if you cry during the sex.

Yeah yeah. And sometimes it's really bad sex the first time you've had the sex, So you probably don't have the strength to be rejected again. That's what I found. So I would be like, I'm going on the apps. I need attention, and then the attention feels good, and then if that attention goes, you're like, oh, no, I did not sign up to be rejected again. I can't handle that. And the other thing is don't then and I've done this because I'm desperate for attention and validation

I think it would be great if she had a Pete Davidson moment, because she would get.

Engaged to Pete davidson'll probably marry him. She can't be stopped. She gets engaged to everybody. Remember when she was engaged to the backup dancer that was actually a backup dancer, and then she got like engaged I think, to the other backup dancer, and that was bad.

She likes jewelry, she.

Loves love, and there's no rule about how many times you can I can't get engaged.

I Also, what I really like about Liv's story is how seriously all those celebrities took it, like Andy Lee with his thing and James Stewart about his thing about time, like they really were there for live.

You know what also helps when you're in the depths of heartbreak. He's remembering that even the celebrities the glitzy, the glamorous, the rich among us get dumped, and sometimes I like to think about I'm sure Miranda Kurr's been dumped in which case happens to the most beautiful among us, and therefore we can all get over it.

Out louders, have you got any excellent heartbreak advice? What actually helps you get over getting dumped? We will send all your advice to JLO, because I'm sure any minute now we're going to get an on the JLO newsletter from her and we can just send it in that reply.

The hell out.

It's Friday, so we want to help set up your weekend with our very best recommendations. Maya, you have a book.

Yeah, I started reading a book. So friend of the pot Emelia Lester, texted me a picture of a book cover and said best book cover at in ages and I just need people to tell me what to read. So I immediately downloaded it onto my Kindle and as soon as I saw the cover, I thought, I'm gonna hate this. It looks really cheesy, which is something that you two would know about, because it had a particular type of

Sounds great, Holly, what's your recommendation?

So I'm going back to back on Lee's sales recommendations. Last week I recommended her Australian story isn't it cave? So Apologies, Lee Sales, I'm sure you're listening to the show. Why am I so obsessed with you? Anyway? This show is called The Assembly and it's on ABC and it launched this week. It's on iView.

Testing one, two three.

For the first time in Australia, artistics students are undertaking an artism and friendly in deduction to a journalism.

Of course, they will be mentored by one of Australia's best journalists. This is a chance to work with people who haven't really had a voice in media.

The students will interview some of Australia's most famous people. Hello.

Our rules are no subjects are out of bounds, no questions are off the table, and anything can happen.

Welcome to the Assembly. It's really interesting. It's like a documentary series. It's set at Macquarie UNI and it's a group of students who have autism and they are getting journalistic tutoring from the one the only Le Sales right, And every episode they interview as famous person and Lee helps them workshop their questions how they're going to ask them, and then the fame this person comes into the ABC and this group of want to be journalists interviews them, right.

That's such a good idea.

And the thing that's really interesting about it is is the group of students with autism are very diverse, as the spectrum would suggest, lots of different kinds of presentations, dealing with things in different ways. But one of the things that they all do have in common with these questions is that they're just asking whatever they want. So in this first one they interview Sam Neil, very famous actor. Some of them don't know who he is and they're

Oh that is so good. That's so good.

And then there's another journalist who asked this question that makes him cry about his parents, and he's very Sam Neil is very He's been going through cancer treatment. He's really living with quite serious cancer and he's very honest

It's just not like that.

It's just really interesting anyway. I love it. It's called the Assembly. The guest they've got coming up Alba, the Prime Minister, it's going to do it. Adam Goodsamanda Kella Hamish Blake is next Oh So really good Feel Good TV. It's on the ABC and iView. It's called The Assembly.

My recommendation, there's not a lot of fashion sash style things that I would have the guts to recommend. But if you were going to ask my recommendation about one item of clothing, what would it be?

Wing die lina, work out gear?

Work out gear leg.

Sorry, I've got panicked live in active wear.

That's my uniform, right, I have never asked you that because you have camel tie, all right, that's a personal issue. That isn't relevant.

Having a vagina, that's a personal.

Sorry.

Anyway. I have tried every pair of leggings, the expensive ones, the cheap ones, that everything. And I recently went into Uniclo. I had someone recommend me these specific leggings and they are called Airism Ultra Stretch leggings. They're fifty bucks and I got them in lilac. They are your first mistake. Yeah, I don't know about my color.

Why did you get them in la?

I think they look I think they.

Look would lielac.

Why are you telling the first of all sweat, second of all period, third of all pelvic floor leakage. And fourth of all, can you can see more you Camelton?

No, I don't have any. Actually, I bought myself some seamless underpants from Bonds, which were also good that I think are quite good for the camel ca This.

Is a Camelt recommendation.

Anyway, let's move past that, Lilac, go on.

Yes, I was just thinking they should have like padding. You know how there's like a when you do cricket, there's like a cup box. Yeah, you should have a cup for Camelton. Anyway, let me start the thing about a good pair of tights. I want them high. I can't have them around my Hip's my widest point. That's just I'm just going to feel uncomfortable all day and I have to be super stretchy and really really soft. These You know how people say buttery soft? I never

Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments if Mum and Me are out Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers, follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone who is already subscribed. It's time I have the bestst of the week where we talk about our high moments and low moments. Mine hasn't happened yet because I haven't seen Jesse in her laggings with her camel Toroe.

I'll take a phight.

But my other worst of the week that actually has happened is that I have had the one hundred day cold. You can hear it in my voice. I'm probably going into I don't know, it feels like day a million. The person who told me about this was Kate Langbrook, who I saw at the Logis.

Where I was. Is this a real thing or is this so Kate theory?

And also, you know, why have you been Is it your fault that you've been sick for so long?

I don't know. I don't know why. My immune systems just it's like I've just had one thing after another. I had got influenza A, then I got a chest infection, and then last week I had just an average sort of a cold. Because I've got asthma, it often goes to my chest. I just think I haven't had a chance to properly recover probably, and I've just kept going and kept going. And Kate said she's the same. I spoke to someone else. He said, they've got one hundred

All so when it goes on for a really long time something like that, like at the beginning, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna go to bed and have some soup and I'm going to take it.

Out of work.

But then you just have to, like you just have to, don't You're just walking around with it and it sucks.

My best was I went to the set of Strife the second season started shooting a couple of weeks ago. I haven't been to set yet because of aforementioned one hundred day cold. And one thing that you know is that you really don't want to spread Jones on set. So last year, when we had the first time all the cast got together and did their read through, I wasn't feeling very well that day, and it was the first time I met a lot of cast. I was

But you were wearing a mask.

I was all right wearing a mask. Yes, So I didn't give it to anyone that I know of. But back when we were shooting season one, it was still COVID protocols, so you had to test every day before you came to set. You had to wear masks unless you were a performer or unless you were eating lunch. It reminded me what a different vibe it is to not have to, and it just felt so joyous being on set. I saw all of the a lot of the cast at the logis, but it was just lovely

Loud as I want to know if all their favorites are back.

Yes, all their favorites are back, plus some extras. I met an actress who I've been a fan of for a really long time yesterday on set who I can't mention, and she was wearing this outfit in character, and I was wearing an almost identical outfit just in my regular life without realizing it.

That's very me or I love it.

My worst is that Lucra is away for the week. He's overseas and I am doing the solo momth thing and oh my god, she still wakes up overnight, which is fine if you're kind of handing over to each other and.

You two have always tag teamed really well.

Yeah, so normally we tag team, but now when you've got a baby waking up overnight, and then sometimes she's up really early. You just have a bunch of I can always find that, like I can do a night or two of bad sleep. But you know when you have had a lot of nights and you can't catch up, that's when you start to feel very run down.

But I've had almost eighteen months worth of nights.

Yeah, look, and normally I can just I can catch up because Luca's around. But on the first night, Luca left and I just went, we're can I go to Clare's And we went to my sister's place and we had dinner and the girls had baths together and it was great. And I came home and went, Honestly, I am nailing me. I don't even need Luca, You're not. This is easy without him, Like it's just really applauding myself. And then I put her to bed and I was like, boom, bom, boom,

And you're going to remake the bed.

You got to remake the bed, put the cot down, and I'm like, mate, I'm tired. Actually anyway, I put her back down and then I go, hang on, where did the cot sheet go? Because I put it in the hallway and now it's not there. And I hear from my bedroom the dog who had stolen the cot sheet in the vomit, and I was just so disgusting, and I was like, you had to clean it up because and it was horrible.

My dog's eaten worse. Yeah.

My best though is that over the weekend MI children Luna did have their first sleepover, so slumber party. Claire came over. I had a few friends over that night and then Matilda was having a rough time and I went, why don't you just stay? And so we had to sleep over. The girls were in their pajamas. They stayed, which was lovely, and then we all had breakfast, so Claire slept with me, and then we've got travel coot, so Matilda was just in that and then Luna was

It was just does she like Matilda anymore?

She is?

She growing on.

Her getting there. She doesn't like actively cry now when she sees Matilda, which is good. It's like exposure therapy. But Matilda loves Luna, and Luna's just feeling like matilda steels are attention a bit. It's always fun when there's other people around, So yeah.

Parenting when there's other people around the village, etc.

Holly, what's your worst.

I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for my worst because I'm just going to be honest about a conversation I had with some friends this week when I found out that everybody I knows on diet drugs except for me.

It's like injectibles.

Yeah, I thought the only famous people were doing that shit, and there's me being an ordinary person thinking, oh, I know, talking about weight and bodies is very fraught. We generally don't talk about it much. But I've also said a couple of times I had a fight with Jesse about this on the show. There are a lot of women out there, particularly midlife women, who are not feeling great about their bodies, who are trying to eat right, exercise hard,

Cottage? Can I just ask about cottage cheese because you meant to feed toddlers that is that like the best version of cheese or something.

It's very protein rich and low fat, right, so if you eat and again, I don't want to sound like I don't know one of those magazines from the eighth.

Now I have questions about cottage.

Shy protein breakfast Sarah are a good thing to so cottag cheese anyway, I'm not criticisz anywhere, I don't want to sound like one of those people, but any here, I am being one of those people. And then I talk to some of my friends and they're like, Oh, everybody's taking them. Everybody's doing that now, And it made me sad.

I told you a bunch of people that we know are And the thing about menopause, though, is that your body just wants to turn into a circle. Like it's just desperate to turn into a circle. It doesn't matter what you do or what you don't do. Your body's like, nah, we're going to be a circle.

And I know it doesn't matter, right, I know it doesn't, But also you're kind of when you don't feel like yourself, when you feel all those like you know, you're just trying to feel better. And then I'm like, oh, I see what everybody else is doing. Food is a big I like food a lot, right, I like healthy food. I like but rituals around food, thinking about it, cooking and eating with my family, going out for dinner, all those things are things that bring me a lot of joy.

Worst?

How'd you have offended? Anyway?

Because it's very sensitive talking about bodies and diets and things.

But I think it's also a thing that a lot of people are grappling with and that choice and going on it, and I know people who have gone on it and it's made them feel really sick. And yeah, I think it's something a lot of people are talking about.

Yeah, anyway, my best is related to jess is worst, and it's that Brent's been away and.

Have many children run away?

Would be really upset to hear this, but hopefully no children are vomited, and my children obviously are bigger they can take care of themselves a lot more. It is still a lot more work for me when he's not around. Like there's a lot of driving people around, there's a lot of cooking, there's a lot of all that stuff. But sometimes on the weekend, I really like to just be quiet and be at home and just be pottering about and just do the things I want to do.

Which is our favorite thing.

And it made him build some veggie beds with me, which he hated, but I bribed him with things for it, and I called back together time even though.

He was winting all the way through it.

And I built a new cage for my veggie bed that the rats keeping ready. And I was like, every time I went in the kitchen and I put something down, it was there when I went back in for it.

It was great.

So I was, yeah, I know what you mean.

Brent came back and I was like, yeah, I love you, but.

It's been nice.

Oh he's Brent back already.

He got back this week Wednesday.

Can you send him to my house?

Yes?

Actually he'd be really useful. He loves a baby. I think he would anyway, So yes, those are my best and worst.

The week before we go, we had a very interesting discussion on yesterday's subscriber episode about whether it is ever appropriate to buy a sex toy for a friend as a gift and spoiler, one of us wrote this dilemma and one of us was horrified. So if you want to listen to that episode, there is a link to it in our show notes.

I can't wait to hear what the outlouders think about whether or not you should do that. This is one we definitely need you all to weigh in.

I'm friends.

That's all we've got time for today and this week. A massive thank you to all of you out louders for listening to us. We'll be back in your ears next week. Also, it's Friday and we need to thank our amazing team, our excellent producer, Emmeline Gazillis of course, and Leah Porges for her audio production. And we'll see you all on Monday.

Bye bye. Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening if you love the show and want to support us as well. Subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way to do so. There is a link in the episode description