You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the nineteenth of June. I'm Holly Wainwright.
I'm mea Friedman.
I'm Emmurnham filling in for Jesse. You can also listen to me on our daily podcast, The Spill Listen.
On Monday, we did a segment with Gemma who was filling in for Jesse on Monday, Gemma Bath, and it was about intergenerational wealth, so specifically about whether or not it's ever been harder to be about thirty in Australia. And to say that it popped off that segment in terms of feedback, there's a little bit of an understatement. The discussions around it are still going on. There's some mud slinging, there's some like we did it tougher than new conversations. Anyway, Clearly you.
Guys are very interested in it.
We will talk about it again, but thank you a few feedback and if you haven't listened to it, go and listen to it.
The other episode that's popping off, as you said, Holly in the Outluders group is We did a group therapy episode last week. We helped an outlouder deal with a dilemma about her daughter, who's twenty three. She had a terrible night out on her birthday. It involved address and involved her boss and a few gross men.
And nothing feels better than a group therapy session. So we want to hear from you. If there's a problem that you think we can help you solve, you can send us your dilemma by clicking the link in our show notes and recording us a voice note. You don't have to give your name, but we want to hear you tell your problem in your own words.
On today's show, the most mysterious jam in the world is Megan Markle, disorganized af or a marketing genius an investigation. Also, alphas are out, fuck boys are out, even rodents are out. Now apparently the most attractive energy a hetero man can put is daddy. And are you creeped out yet? And is there someone in your life who loves to monologue at you? If so, there's a way to shut them up. And MV knows what it is. But first me a freedman.
In case you missed it, justin Timberlake's been arrested.
I hadn't missed it because who doesn't love a celebrity mug shot.
He's forty two and he is in trouble with the law because he was drink driving in the Haptins. Not cool. The funniest part of this story because drink driving isn't funny. But the police officer who pulled him over had no idea who he was.
He was a gen z.
Yes, it's true. So Timberlake claimed that he only had one martini and he was arrested and taken to the police station, where he refused to take a breath test. But before he was taken there, I don't know if you've seen some of those videos. In America, they don't have like random breath testing. You sort of go and do it back at the police station if you get arrested.
They have these sobriety tests, like walking a straight line, answer these questions down and one foot touched you tip of your nose with your finger.
That's quite embarrassing.
Yeah, they're called field sobriety tests. He failed all of those, and according to a source. The officer said that, you know, Justin had said under his breath, this is going to ruin the tour because he's currently on a world tour. And the cop replied, what tour? And Justin said, the world tool where I dance and sing on the stage. Don't you know who I am?
The cop did not know who he was.
No, the cop would have genuinely been convinced that man is so intoxicated.
Do you remember when this happened to Reese Witherspoon and she was like, don't you know who I am?
It's not cool, It's never cool.
Why do you think people are sort of gleeful about this story? Hold?
The world is really keen to turn on Justin Timberlake, and it's not really clear why except we've got an ick right. And it's somewhat Brittany related because when she wrote her book and it came out, she spoke about him cheating on her. She spoke about the abortion that she had that she didn't want to have, and kind of righted the narrative that it was always him who'd been wronged the Crime River, and.
He made the film clip Crime River that made it seem like she'd cheated on him, which I think she also did. But then it was Janet Jackson thing. I think it was where he was performing in the super Bowl with her and then he ripped off her top and her nipple was exposed and she got canceled, but he didn't, even though it was clearly something that they planned together. It was a stunt.
And then he cheated on his wife allegedly, allegedly, and so people are very ready to turn on him, and he is back with new music which is actually quite banging.
I have to say I like music.
I don't mind justin Timberlake's music at all. But we've all decided he's a bit of a dick. So I think there's a lot of glee in seeing this. I just need to say one Martini.
Is a lot.
There's a lot of alcohol and proper martini not driving a car. I'm always really confused when celebrities get arrested. Duy, because if I was rich and famous, the number one thing I would have as a driver because I would want to go out and drink my Martini's in the Hamptons.
Yeah, I don't know why he decided to drive. He did say he was following friends in his twenty twenty five BMW.
And he went through a stop sign and then he swerved onto the wrong side. He killed someone, he could have injured himself. Like not cool.
What I am really interested in is the camera they used to take this mugshot, because it looks beautiful. It's so high quality. It looks like one of our Mummia headshots.
I wonder if you can request filters these days.
Probably people, there is a jam in the world so rare and exquisite that money cannot buy it. And it's really pissing me off because, as regular out loud as will know, I live with an award winning scone maker, Yes he I do. What does a scone needs needs jam Brent's country show Triumphing Scones deserve the finest condiments, and apparently they are to be found in Montecito and California. They are handmade in a multimillion dollar mansion by an
actual duchess. And it has been three months already and yet no jam for sale. I'm talking, of course, about American riviera orchard, or as we like to call it in an irritating moment Mirror out Loud in joke American Riviera Orchard now Duchess Meghan of Sussex's home brand. This week, my suspense was extended with the news that the lucky influencers who received the first batch of Megan's Jam have just got another jar, which just seems unfair when I
still haven't got any. And this is raspberry to add to the strawberry, which is not exactly groundbreaking, but okay, Meghan. The challenge of how to style their very special Jam in the announcing Instagram post was thrown down to Nacho Fugeris, who is a polo player who's really good mates with Harry and Meg's and he chose to post it along with a bombshell hint that there are also dog biscuits
on safe. Oh goodye, I thought, And I went straight to the source, American Riviera Orchard, where I have already months ago put in my email to be alerted when the jam is on release.
Nothing.
Nothing, nothing, I've had no email from that. I haven't even had a thanks for subscribing email from them. No, I've had nothing. Poor user journey, I know. And then so I went straight to the Instagram account. I'm like, surely they're posting about the Jam. It must be coming nothing still just one of those what do you call those?
Those collarge logo they're very five six years ago March.
It was March that we first got told about the jam. It's now mid June.
Holly's got a diary note. She's making temporaneous.
Notes Mia, why can't I buy the damn Jam?
I have one question before I tell you, is she reposting from that account? What the other celebrities she's not? Okay? Think? So here's the strategy. This is known as the sort of tease warm up period where you're trying to build buzz, and the other thing that you're trying to do is
build your list and build your following. So you're trying to get followers and you're trying to Even more valuable than followers is to sign up for your email list, because it means that when you're ready to open the doors and make your jam freely available to the PLEDs like us, you can email them direct and you don't have to worry about an algorithm who's going to reach you.
You can just it's very valuable having the email addresses of prospective customers, much more than just having people follow you on Instagram. That's also important, But the more important thing is the email addresses. Now to build anticipation like a movie trailer coming out right. So when you've got a product that you're launching, this is not a path that's unfamiliar to a lot of people who've started businesses. You send something out to influencers in the hope that
they'll post it. What's interesting about this is that it works magnificently in a two way street because the famous people that she's sending it to, it's not like them being sent some toothpaste or ordinary dog biscuits or ordinary jam. Why would they post it, right, Because if they did post it, all the benefit and all the exposure goes to whoever sent it to them, whoever's paying them to
post it. Could this be a paid campaign? Unlikely given the level of the celebrities involved, But because Megan is who she is, if they post the jam on their pages and their stories, it will be picked up by the Daily Mail, by media worldwide, so that then helps them build their followers. It's a beautiful partnership, a beautiful what's called a flywheel in product marketing. They'll get more
jam and they'll get more jam. Now my concern also as a lady startup someone who starts runs her own business and has advised many women on how to start businesses. When I look at the packaging of the jam, and I think the dog biscuits as well. These are very artisanal, which is I think the point of the label, and artisanal's kind of like handmade. The problem is that that's very hard to scale. You need someone to hand cut the muslin or the raffia and to hand tie it
around and to hand label the jars of jam. That's very hard to scale. So you can do that for fifty and because each jam is labeled one of fifty, what about when Holly and I are let loose well polymore, then suddenly she's got to wrap five thousand, fifty thousand pieces of muslin around a jam jar and send me doing that.
She's got kids.
I love the idea that in the kitchen him on to see it. Now.
I know that she's not doing it, and no one would think that she was. But even if that's the level of packaging, someone has to do that, and the cost of having someone do that on a product that you can't charge that much for. I mean, you can't charge five hundred dollars for it. The margin of profit is tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny tiny.
Here's my question though, right everybody wants to know how much this jam is going to cost, because, as you've said, like very high value, what would.
You pay for it?
And shipping as well.
Shipping to Australia?
What would you pay for it in this economy, I'm not paying a lot of money for jar.
Pay twenty dollars for Megan's Jam.
I might pay twenty dollars.
What about another ten dollars for shipping?
If my nation to their charity.
If I well, there will definitely be a charity bit when they release this, because there's no way they can just be seen to be literally making money jam. They will be. There will be a charity component, But it really does. But if I did spend thirty dollars on a jar of Megan's Jam, apart from having to have a very good hard look at myself in the mirror.
I would be guarding that fucking joy.
If any of my children came near that jam, I would chop off their little chubby fingers. But my question about the marketing genius here me and you're the expert. As you've said, that makes a lot of sense. We've just said, but when does Fomo just become like they haven't got.
Their shit together?
And that's exactly three months and no new messaging from the actual brand, no more teasing from the actual brand.
It just feels a bit.
See. My belief, based on nothing but experience and anecdotes, is that you you have to get that lead period, right, because, as you say, people just forget. I think nothing that she does is ever gonna need more buzz because there's just going to be I mean, money for Jam is the headlines everywhere. And when we said twenty dollars, imagine twenty dollars US like, that's kind of the least she can charge, right.
Forty dollars Imagine the forty dollars Jam.
Yeah.
So I know that when I'm watching a streamer and there's a promo for a feel I want to see or a new TV show, I want to watch it immediately because they're I've forgotten because I've seen twenty more ads. So I'm always like, keep the tees close to the actual time. That's not what everybody believes. I do think three months is quite a long time. But no doubt she's having production issues noiceuse everybody does.
How would you feel if you guys get your jam and it's just a generic sticker label.
Or imagine if it's just like normal supermarket jam. I think an AMaGA jar.
Because I know, like in our industry, there's a lot of PR packages that go around, and the PR package always looks better than the actual product. So I don't think that's the product everyone's going to be getting.
Are you excited about no?
No.
I was upset that she didn't like lead with raspberry because I thought raspberry was the cooler fruit. But I think now she has to do raspberry because strawberries are out of season and she's waited too long, and I want fresh jam if I'm getting jams.
You know what I love is I love seeing the people who she sent the first load to, Like some of them are very profresh influencers, and so they've got their shot really styled, and they're in a beautiful garden with lemons, And then some people are just trying really hard how to think of making jam look nice, and it's just a piece of bread with some jam smear on it and a couple of cut up strawberries like laying next to it in a sad way, and they're like, thanks, EM, I love you EM, just like jam.
Is hard to style guys, Yeah, what's next? Blueberry?
Oh?
I'm thinking of BlackBerry.
Oh.
I like a BlackBerry jam. I'm not a fan of blueberry jam. Too sweet? Sweet? Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mumm of Me Are subscribers Follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber. I saw a TikTok that's going viral this week, and I have questions about it for our gen z and single Lady correspondent.
Single Lady correspondent.
Yeah, so crim and Urlin, this whole thing is cringe. Just wait to you. We wait to I play the video. The voice you're about to hear is a guy called Kevin. He makes content online about relationships and personal growth for men. Is he qualified? Unlikely? Kind of irrelevant? He goes on to explain the quality that he's most attractive to a woman in a.
Man Okay, so I think that more guys should be talking about this. I know women talk about it, but I'm not sure about the guys. But I fully, fully believe that the most attractive, just beautiful, like radiant confidence that a guy can have. It's not alpha energy, it's not cocky energy, it's not fuck boy energy. It is
having daddy energy. Daddy energy is the most highly highly attractive energy that a guy can possess, not only just to women in general, but especially to the most high quality marriage material, most quote unquote perfect woman that exists, because daddy energy has the perfect balance of confidence, protection, and safety, and those are some of the highest qualities that a woman, specially of high value, wants to see in her man.
I agree, Holly, doesn't she was making out loud as you count here. She was making vomiting noises while we were listening to that.
I was particularly making vomiting noises though about him talking about high quality women, like please, are you.
Not a high quality woman and venom? Can you explain what daddy energy is and is it about your actual daddy? Oh God, because that's creepy as.
So he goes on to explain that there are three kind of components of embodying daddy. Energy, it's confidence, safety, and protection.
Before we get to those, can you just explain to me the internet usage of the word daddy, because it's become a bit of a thing that some people might not understand what daddy means because it's widely used on the Internet.
Yeah, I would describe it as first a gross word, but I would describe it as like being thirsty over like some really hot celebrity right now, So I would say, Paul mescal will be a daddy really.
Yeah.
So it's not about age, No, it's about like kind of how people, like so many women are thirsting over you as a man.
One of the biggest podcasts in the world is called Call Her Daddy, So it's like, daddy, you're my daddy. It's like it was a pawn thing, right.
I think with the podcast, it's like Alex Cooper like putting it, yes, averting it on women like I'm the daddy. Yeah.
Energy is about power, right, So it's not just about I'm hot. It's a particular kind of hot.
And I think it talks about those three. I don't think it's about thirst. I think it's what he said, it's about confidence, safety, and protection and power. That's what a daddy kind of is.
But then when you have all that, then you end up thirsting for.
That person, right that makes them hot?
Yeah, and I think also, which is weirdly descriptive, but he also talks about how encompassing like safety, protection and confidence. He uses the metaphor of like having a kingdom and you should protect the people within your kingdom, and I thought that was really weird.
Do you remember during COVID everyone started having inappropriate thoughts about Josh Fridenberg the treasurer, because every time you turned the television on, he would be announcing how he was going to give you money. And when we talked about this on the show, how suddenly people were like, why am I finding Josh Bredenberg so sexy? We didn't do a thing on a mayor about it, and women were like, yeah, it's because he had daddy energy.
The examples under this video sort of explained it better for me. Well, there was a woman, for example, who said, yeah, I used to date a guy who insisted on sleeping on the outside nearest to the door because if an intruder came in, he would get to him before her. And she was like daddy. That's how I understand it, right to be the protective thing.
And you don't like that?
No?
Why because you know how people always say like women and obviously this is a generic heterosexual stereotype, but one a man like their dad, right, Well, A that depends on whether or not your dad was any good. Yeah, But also we hate admitting that. I think a lot of women hate admitting that. But there's something very deep in there, right, But dads are all kinds of different. I didn't have one of those kind of dads who's like,
I will protect you in the world. I will fight off you know, but what I'll take.
Care of it? Not like I might fight off intruders. But what about just like dad? Can you sort it out?
Nah, didn't have that kind of dad. And I know I'm being literal there, but that's because when I examine myself of why I don't find this attractive, it probably is that, right, It probably is that my model of a man is not that I've never really thought that that's like up there.
On my list of values.
If I was to write the things I find really attractive in a guy, protection is not up there.
That doesn't mean that I.
Can't see the appeal of it, Like sure, but for me, that's always come with a side of oppression. Like when a guy is protecting you, I feel like I'm smaller, and I don't want to be smaller.
Sometimes I do.
Yeah, really you think?
So you're out there in the world when you listen to this picking and choosing your dudes or whatever much she said, like a manner.
From my long list of men.
When you hear this, do you like, yes, daddy energy is definitely what I'm looking for.
Okay. I have complicated relationship with daddy energy because I have friends whose partners have daddy energy, and it's really obvious to me because I'm not in their kingdom, so they exclude me from their energy. I want all the men in my life to you have daddy energy, not just the partner i'm dating. I think when a guy embodies daddy energy, it's so obvious for the women's friends around her to see that because they see him being really protective and safe, but also excluding you from that.
Like there will be times where I've gone out for drinks with friends and then the guy will like turn to his partner who's my friend, and be like, can I get you anything? Can I get you a drink? Can I get you dinner? And then he just leaves and I'm like, okay, I'll just go fuck myself then like I'm just sitting here. Or there'll be times where like my friend will be like, hey, can we give
you a lift home? And he's just like rolling his eyes and he's like, oh, but you have to, like you have disappointment and we have to get home to the dog.
And I'm like, but isn't the point of daddy energy that they've got to be attractive to you.
I don't think attractiveness comes into daddy energy. I think he's talking about like how to.
Be what he's talking about, he's talking about how making himself more attractive to women by being a dust And that's what he's saying.
He's saying that this is what women want in men in a partner.
You shouldn't be thirsty after your partner.
I'm not thirst after my I'm just like, the way they are being treated is like an ideal way that I'd like to also be treated by a partner. But I feel like when a man is doing that to a woman who he's dating, it comes across as really weird to her friends and really awkward because he excludes all of them and it just looks like he's treating her like a little like puppy baby.
This is interesting because to me, this is a bit like I know women who are like I want to be treated like a princess, right. I don't want to be treated like a princess. It's not one of my things. Sometimes I don't want to be like a little precious thing that needs like that's.
Not my vibe. Right.
So when I've and I have dated guys who are like this, who want to order for you in a restaurant. If a guy looks at you funny, they'll kind of square off to them a bit, and I find it so unattractive. The thing that's interesting about this guy, Kevin, as you said me, he's like a manfluencer, and that he has a whole thing about how he's telling men how to have good relationships. And he has a three day free course that you can sign up for where he will teach you how.
To have daddy energy. Well, I think it's better than Andrew Tate, who's like, call her a bitch and treat to Maine and she'll want you more.
And I would love to know how he teaches you to have it, because what are the physical practical steps, Like, how would you tell a guy to have daddy energy? What would you think is a really good example.
I don't think you can teach someone. I think it's just who they are. So all the guys that I dated in my late teens and early twenties had the opposite of daddy energy. I don't know what you'd even call it, like Todd lor energy, drug addict energy. Then I remember the first night that I spent with Jays. The next morning we went back to my place and someone had side swiped my car was parked outside my apartment and I'd parked it badly and someone had sideswiped it.
And I just knew that he'd be able to take care of it. I don't mean like yeah, but he just knew he had to move the car to get it off the corner and then. And it's not that I couldn't have done it myself, and I think I did do it myself, but I knew that he had the energy over someone who is capable. To me, it's capable and not a child.
That's what my Dad does for me that no other partner has ever done. Like if like a light doesn't work, I'm like, Dad will fix it. Like I don't even have to say, like he'll just fix it, will just come and fix things, and like drive me to places because I have parking anxiety.
When I was much younger, I dated and much older guys, you know, and you could say that he had daddy energy because I was seventeen and he was thirty three, and he you know, I didn't love that. I liked part of it, but I didn't really want someone to he had daddy energy in a way that was a
bit more controlling, which I didn't love. So, you know, I remember saying to Jayces early in our relationship, we'd be going out to dinner and he'd be like, oh, you don't need to bring you alllet and I'd get angry at him because he was going to pack, and I was like, what I've had to pay for every guy I've ever dated, And he said, I'll bet I'll pay for you. And I said, but I don't dismantle my independence, but like you whole like, I'm like, I don't need you to pay for me. I'm just stoked
you can pay for yourself. Yeah, I see.
How attractive it is. And to be honest, my life would probably be less stressful if I chosen someone who could take care of all the things. But I just for me. Obviously, somewhere it's linked with control and I don't like that. And maybe the experiences I've had where when a guy is saying I'll take care of it, I often feel like I'm being told to sit down and shut up, you know what I mean, And I don't like.
I don't like that.
But this guy's interesting because I can see what he means about the confidence that it's hot to walk through the world being like I am in charge of my kingdom. But I'm like, where does that leave me? I want to be a queen? Does the king want a queen?
I don't know.
Its other energy is a different thing. So that's Beyonce. That's similar. That's like not so much safety. That's iconic status, right, So people call Beyonce mother and the goddess mother. They might call me Donna mother. It's sort of like goddess icon It's not about money.
Is it.
It's really about responsibility and capability. I think it's about mental load. You know. I think it's about someone who will share the mental load or take some mental load from you. It's not about someone paying for every for me, about someone paying for everything. It's about, oh, I don't have to think of everything.
Yeah.
I think in the early stages of dating someone, it is a bit kind of about the paying thing, Like it is a nice story to tell your friends, Like you sit down at dinner and they want to hear your dating stories, and they're kind of hoping it's a tragic one, so they get entertainment out of it, and you sit down and you go, he paid for everything, Like he organized the date, like he did all of this stuff, And like, I feel like that is the
daddy energy that I like. Because whether that like continues on in the relationship or not, like it starts off really.
Powerful unless it's an early warning sign of it's very controlling.
Have had that as well, I must say.
Speaking of love interest, is marrying your best friend ever a good idea? Can best friends turn into lovers? And should lovers become best friends? In yesterday's episode, we debated this, he's a little taste.
In an ideal world, I would see my romantic partner being at the same level as my best friend, not above them. And I don't see my best friend being above them. My friends who have gotten into relationships, I feel me losing them as a best friend. You automatically know when their partner becomes their best friend, because you're automatically taken off something.
Well, what's the symptom of that? Tell me what happens when you first go, oh, they've taken that spot from me.
Now, when I find out that they've told their partner they've got a promotion, or they've had a fight or something before they've told me, I'm like, oh, this is the switch.
Sex with your best friend, good or bad. A link to the episode will be in the show notes.
Do you know someone who just never shuts the fuck up? Sonnis?
Yeah, your mouth is moving a lot like a rats Yeah ya Yapa Yapa.
Subseac writer and Cadet wrote a post titled how to Deal with People who talk and talk and talk and talk. She talked about how she had a friend named Gabby who she loved and had so much in common with, and this friend she called a monologuer. So she said that if there was a transcript of their conversation and said that Gabby would do ninety five percent of the talking. So one day she decided to confront her monologue friend, Gabby, and I'm going to read a little excerpt of the substack.
It's so good, Gabby. I've been feeling a little irritated that whenever we meet up, it's mostly you talking about yourself. We never talk about me. She expressed surprise, and then, to her credit, asked what she should do well. I said, you could ask what's new with me? What's new with you? Said Gabby. I started relaying a recent adventure, but within minutes she steered the conversation back to herself. Gabby, I said, we're talking about you again.
This is such good communication.
She requested more guidance, and I suggested she express an interest in my story by asking questions. Gabby put in a mighty effort, but after ten minutes she announced that she had to run. Thank you for your honesty, she said in her way out, But it was so helpful for me to get the feedback. And I never heard from Gabby and Holly, do you have a monologer in your life?
I do. I have monologuers in my life, for sure. And sometimes I'm really grateful for them because I do a lot of talking, and sometimes I don't want to talk. So I know there are some social situations in which I can just throw someone a question and sit back, and that makes me very happy. I don't always have a problem with it.
I have to saya. The best interviews when you just you can just go, so, how did you get here? And then it's just like, right, okay, thanks for joining us. That's always got time for I. When I first read this, became panicked that oh shit, and my monologue because I talk a lot and I don't shut up. Holly helpfully pointed out that I have a different annoying conversational thing, which is I'm an interrupter, so I'll interrupt to ask questions.
I have people in my life who do this. I often we'll be listening to someone tell a really long, detailed, boring story and I'll be thinking to myself, how can you not know? This is not interesting? Or I'll play a game with myself when I'm like, I wonder if they'll ask me a question at all in this period of time that I see them, and do they know or it's a perfunctory one and then as Gabby did they get back to themselves. I do a thing when
I'm tired, particularly whole, and it's funny. I've been pulled up on it when I'll go into interview mode because when I'm tired and I don't want to talk because we talk a lot on the show, I will just ask questions and also I'm interested. But I'll often go into interview mode, like my kids will go, this is not no filter, and I'll catch myself doing it. But when you ask someone a lot of questions about themselves, they can be like, oh, you're really interested, I'll keep talking.
And so I think sometimes if you're with a monologer, just check that you're not kicking the can down the road you sell, and that you're not the one that's constantly asking the questions, and just see what happens if you stop asking questions.
Is that your strategy?
Yeah, it is, except with this one person I had to actually because I watched them monologue to someone else who was trying to have a conversation with them and who I know they really love, and I just watched this person trying to connect, throwing bids out for connection, and this other person the monologue just kept going and kept going and kept going and didn't ask a question,
and this other person sort of wandered off. And I know that this person was feeling unsatisfied by their social interactions. And I just said, you know, you didn't ask that person a single question. And it was easy because it
wasn't me. I was just an observer. And they're like what, and I went, yeah, they came down and they were trying to connect with you and tell you, and they've got all these things going on in their life, and you just monologued about this story and this thing that happened to you and this other thing that's going on in your life. And it was a real missed opportunity.
And to their credit, they were mortified, and ever since have made such an effort, and I've watched them interact and they've done things like gone, no, I need to ask you some questions. I want to hear about your life. So they've like really taken it to heart, and I think it's made a big difference.
I don't have that many monologus in my life. There's a lot of monologuing when it comes to dating, but in my actual life, I think what's worse and monologuing is someone who lets you talk, but you can tell they're just thinking about the next thing to say. Yeah, And I'm like, at least what monologuing If you do kind of interrupt them, they could potentially listen to what
you're saying. But when someone is one hundred percent not listening and just wants to talk and say their next thing, that is way we talked.
About snow globers, where they're just like waiting for a pause to go, yeah, that happened to me, and then show you their snow globe and something that happened.
Oh.
I find that older people often will do that generalizing, but will want to tell long stories about their past, often instead of asking questions to the young people around.
The thing is, though, right about you know your point about when you sit there listening to them tell you a story and you're like, do you know how boring you are? How do you know that you're right? Like, you're bored a lot MEA's boredom threshold is very low, so it's like, oh, because it's boring to you, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's boring.
Yeah, So I'll give you an example and I never think you're boring. I just am always like this is a boring story, because these are usually people that I love. Ask me a question, any question.
What did you do this morning?
Well, the alarm went off and I set my phone to silent, and I shouldn't have because I should know, but I had it on because in case Coco calls me. She's in Europe, you know, I got up and into the tea bag and it's like, no, no, just to back edit, like, but what happened? Yeah, I don't want to know fourteen hours or if I'm asking you a specific thing, you know, I want to tell you something. Just cut to the important.
Not everybody's good at telling a story, right. So this is one of the key things about monologuers, right, because I think we live in a very monology culture. We have convinced ourselves that my piece to camera, my voice note, my several swipes along Instagram carousel is really interesting. We've moved into monologue culture. We don't like conversation anymore, we don't like phone conversations. So I think people have decided
that monologuing is where it's at. But the problem with IRL monologuing is you have to be a good storyteller to do it well. And I can very clearly remember some of the best stories I've ever been told in my life. I don't mean in a professional setting. I mean like a friend or someone I know at a party or whatever telling me an amazing story and You're
just like, no, keep going, that's fricking great, right. So it's not that monologuing has a standard rule that shires the story because they know which bits to keep in and which bits.
To keep out.
But not everybody has that skill, right. And the thing is is the people who are very good at telling stories still have stories, do you know what I mean? I used to really like, I know this is not everybody agrees with this, but like when my grandparents were alive and I was little, I used to love their stories about like the war and about what life was like, you know, like back in the older days. And they
weren't particularly good storytellers. So sometimes you have to sift through the boring bits to get to the good stuff. I wonder if we've all because we're so now used to performance and all interaction is a performance, right, that we've lost our tolerance for like sifting through the boring story the chaff for the wheat.
Do you know, I think you've nailed it. I think we've lost the ability to converse in real time where I say a bit and then you say a bit. But if I talk for too long, I become aware that I've talked for too long, and I'm reading your body language and facial expressions, and I can see when the light goes off in your eyes and you're actually thinking about.
Something monkeys in your head. Like one of my old friends who I haven't seen for ages actually, but her husband is a classic monologuer. Right. Although I like him and I've known him for a lot of years, I would avoid catch ups where it was him as well, because he would just take over with.
His that's the power monologuer.
Yeah, and his stories, like he had interesting ideas and things to say, his stories where he just would talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, And so you would be like, Okay, if I want to catch up with my girlfriend, he needs to not be around because I won't get to catch up with my girlfriend. I'll just have to listen to his monologues. But I'm sure that he thinks that he's trying really hard to engage and interact with his friends, you know, like his wife's best friend.
I was just giving speeches. That's such a good point. So the monologu as I was talking about were not power monologuers. They were more just this isn't very interesting monologuers, the people who weren't very good editors or very good storytellers and couldn't work out what bits of an event or inexperience are relevant and interesting to your audience and which are probably best kept as inside thoughts. But a
power monologuer makes me angry because they hold everyone. If you've been at a dinner party or if you've been I've never known really a woman that does this. But there's also a man of a certain age who expects everyone to be quiet. And what was the precursor to the power monologuer. You don't see them so much anymore, But it's the joke teller. So it was the person
who would tell a joke. The conversation would have to stop and everyone would have to stand quietly or whatever and wait for the whole joke to be told and then laugh at the end. And that is a power mood that I absolutely hate.
I don't have experience with like a storyteller monologue. I think, especially when going on first dates, I realized that a lot of men don't really talk about their feelings and what's going on in their lives with their friends, and I think monologuing is kind of I'm going to generalize here, but monologuing is kind of a symptom of the single straight man. They don't have an outlet to give everything
to their friends. So when you go on a date, and obviously on first dates, you want to know more about the person, so you're asking them questions because no one's ever asked them a question before. They just run with it and keep talking and talking and talking till the end of the day you realize that they don't know a single thing about you.
But is that that male female thing, because I remember thinking, I remember first reading about it in the context of dating.
That men don't ask enough questions, no, because.
They're not as in tune with the social contract of I ask you a few questions, and then when you've spoken for long enough, you ask me a few questions back. And that's how it works. So they'll just be like, oh, she thinks I'm interesting. I'll keep talking, so that she thinks I'm even more interesting.
But then they also just sit in the silence when you're waiting for a question.
Oh wow, it's so weird.
So I always my strategy for monologue is is I always go not that you asked, but I also have a sister, Oh that's gay chill, and then they get like, oh shit, yeah that's genius.
So the best way to shut a monologuer up is I'd be very direct, like the woman who wrote the substack, which is like, do you realize you're not asking me any questions? Interrupt with questions, or just throw a bomb like MV just did, like not that you asked, but I love it. That's it for today's show, Out Louders, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you to you m V for filling out, and Jesse, you've
got another show on Friday day. And then I believe she's on our way, she's on a plane, she'll be on a plane. By then, she will be on a plane, thank God, with her bebby a.
Ten month old alone, because Lucas already back. So thoughts and prayers for Jesse out Louders.
We will be back in your ears on Friday. We cannot wait.
To talk to you. Then, Bye bye, Siya.
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