Sarah Jessica Parker Didn’t See This... Coming

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud, where women come for a debrief.

I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

And here's what made our agenda for today, Friday, the twentieth of June.

Why Sarah Jessica.

Parker might be one of the few women alive who has never watched Carrie Bradshaw have sex, get dressed, or type charmingly on a laptop.

Plus, everyone wants to text less, but nobody wants to be left on red And is anyone else exhausted by having to be always on? Not just at work but with friends and family.

And we've got some recommendations for you. We are all bringing you something to watch this weekend, and we have some news. We do great there.

But first I have a question. Did everyone else know that Bluey is a girl?

Yes? No?

Yes? What did you think Bluey was a boy?

I don't watch blue my children too well?

What did you think blue was a boy?

I think I did?

Yes, because blue is a boy's color.

No, Blue is a girl and has a sister named Bingo.

My mind is blown. So I kind of thought that Bingo was a girl, but I assumed that Bluie was a boy, and I learnt it because I also am out of the loop of children's programs. But now spending more time with my granddaughter, I've very much entered the.

World of Blue.

Everybody says it's the best kids TV show I've ever made, and it's so successful all over the world.

Yeah, I'm back in the Wiggles. Goodness, there've been some changes there. There's a lot of them now. Yeah, they've all got different names. And Jeff isn't around, must have gone sleep permanently.

But Blue is a girl.

I didn't know that.

Okay, I have something I need to add because I was away with friends over the weekend and there were eight of us and two of us didn't know this. Did you guys know that oats and porridge were the same thing? Yes? Stop it?

How did you not stop?

I think that they were thought porridge was likes ludge. I thought porridge was like a mucky wet. I thought it was just it's.

Made from oat.

Where do you think it came from the ground.

I thought that porridge was the thing you bought and oats is the thing you buy. Separate things.

What did you think you did with oats?

I thought you made oats.

Can we revise? He is the smart one, you know how that's always nothing. Jesse is the smart one.

Not today.

My friend and I were just our minds were absolutely blown.

Porridge and the same thing.

Wow, I've been off the show for a couple of days.

The thing I like the absolute best is that Miya thought that they shou rocky.

Now I've forgotten which it is. Now I'm terrified and I'm just going to call him Rihanna's boyfriend my life.

Which is very out loud of us to just make him Rihanna's boyfriend. Anyway, if you had spent decades on one of the most iconic TV shows of all time, in glorious coture, full hair and makeup and getting to snog loads of handsome, craggy guys, wouldn't you want to watch yourself doing it?

No? I would.

Apparently if you're SJP you definitely wouldn't. And unless you're trapped under something heavy, you probably know that she's currently starring and executive producer, ing sho we make that a thing absolutely, and just like that the Sex and the City spin off. People have a lot of opinions about that show. They particularly had a lot of opinions about something that happened quite early on in this season with John Corbet, who plays Aiden in his pickup truck. We

It's is such a weird moment where he's having phone sex with you and he's about to, you know, play with himself when he's talking to you, and he licks his hand and he takes his tongue and he starts licking his hand and then he plays with his penis. Do you know he did that in this thing? Because you probably filmed it, And have you seen this scene at all?

No, I've not seen that.

Is that really true? You really have not seen it?

Seen it? No?

I can't comment on that.

My lawyer has advised me.

Is that true?

I have no attorney?

No? No, But I mean, is it true that you're up to you really have no knowledge of it?

Is I haven't seen most of Sex and the City ever, and I haven't seen and just like that. Every now and then Michael Patrick will say to me, please watch episode you know, so I don't know. This is the first I'm hearing about that.

I found this just weird. I have to say on a few levels. First of all, as an executive producer on a show, you have to watch it a lot. I guess there are different versions of being an executive producer, but part of what you do is you make decisions early on about casting and about scripts, and then you watch the dailies and you watch the edits of the show and you give feedback. And she's been an executive producer of Sex and the City and now and.

Just like that.

So I guess what this is suggesting is that it's perhaps a vanity credit or that she inhabits. No, that's a really common thing. Sometimes it means that you get more money out of the back end, because you can charge a fee for being the star, and you charge a fee for being the executive producer. But interestingly, one of the reasons that Kim Ktrall, who played Samantha, gave for wanting to not come back is that she said, well,

I don't think it's vanity though, because I think that

I wonder if this is how you survive fifty years in the industry is by not watching it, And I reckon that a lot of actors when they sit down at a premiere or when their film is released or whatever. I don't reckon that they've watched it. I think that we hear a lot of creatives talk about the process and not necessarily being connected to the outcome. And I just reckon that she is very invested in story. She's a Booker Prize judge this year. I think she really

She's got a book in print.

She's got a book imprint which has many as one of her many things.

Yes, So I.

Love talking about books, and she is a big advocate for public libraries. And she talks about growing up. She's one of like eight or nine kids, and she was never allowed to leave the house, none of them unless they had a book with them.

Oh.

I love that. Can we please talk about the other tidbit that has come out of this press tour, which is that Sarah Jessica Parker alleges that she reads up to two books a day.

Many books do you read a week or a month?

Well, right now I'm judging the Booker. So I'm reading two books today. Sometimes it's an honor, it's a privilege. It's intense to be reading this the volume. Iss, it's kind of hard to convey what it's like to have as many books as we are given the opportunity to read a book. Yeah, it's quite something.

What do we make of that?

Well, I've listened to interviews with her before where she says that she reads constantly. She's not a social media person, right, we all know that she's not a phone person. She probably doesn't even have a phone. She's one of those I think and shed.

It's like a giant Jane Nelson character. And she often talks a bit like that.

She does.

And she says that she reads in the makeup chair. Imagine how much time she spends in a makeup chair and has done for fifty years. She says that she reads on the subway, she reads all the time, she reads between takes. She sounds very much like that is her passion. And if you are a book of Prize Judge, I can't believe she's a Book of Prize Jge.

That is such a flex go SJP.

It's such a prestigious literary award in the world, and you have to read all the books.

And makes will That's what she said is she's just come off obviously season three of and just like that, she's in a period of her career where then she has some downtime, so of course she has capacity. I'm like, that's the dream to read two books a day.

But Holly's right, even when you're working as an actor, there is so much downtime. That's one of the reasons that I can't handle television. And I only went to the set one time. There is so much waiting, so

The thing that's shocking to people about this, I think about the idea she doesn't watch it is because Jesse's right. Lots of actors say they don't watch their work. For a lot of them, it's part of their process, Like they're like, I do the work and then I have to disassociate, which seems very well adjusted, but also a tiny bit arrogant in a way, because you learn when you watch yourself back, right, But I guess if you've been doing it for fifty years, maybe you don't need to.

Have you ever listened to Kristin Davis's podcast it's called It's Really Weird, and she's very elevated. But anyway, when she has s JP on, the whole episode is just her explaining to s JP what happened on the show. I'm serious, but I have a question for you both in terms of it's one thing not to watch you work back, and a lot of actors don't I get it. We should technically listen back to every episode of this show. I don't do.

You know.

I go through phases where I do it is the way you learn, And then I go through phases where I'm like, I couldn't think of anything worse having to listen to me because I just go listen to them. Number of times I did that, listen to the way I said that highly critical And that's what I've heard as JP say is I would hate myself, and I've heard Reese Witherspoon say the same thing. I would go

Get that too.

But my question is it's one thing not watching you work back, but as an executive producer and star of a show, when the whole cultural conversation in the reaction to your episode was about the lickic we spoke about it, and the week before it was about the funny puppet um habit she was wearing. Do you really think she doesn't know that? Do you really think she's not aware of.

The crit conversation? She doesn't know it. And what we need to remember is that Sarah Jessica Parker is the antithesis of Carrie Bradshaw and for the twenty years of The Sex and the City Cannon she has sat down for interviews, even the Howard Sterne one was a perfect example to be asked questions that I believe make her uncomfortable. I don't think she likes talk about.

Why did she go on Howard Sterne. I, Oh, she didn't.

That's what she's done it for years.

But that's what he does. Right as we know, promoting a piece of work, a movie album, a TV show is very different to what it used to be. You know, in the nineties and the early two thousands, you do a high profile interview with Vogue, Vanity Fair, you might do a cover, you might do a couple of newspaper interviews, a couple of TV interviews, one of those junkets. But now you've got to go on a chicken shop date with ameliads Moldenberg. You've got to eat hot wings for BuzzFeed.

It's like, I don't think you have to if you're SJP.

I was thinking about this because you're so right that whether or not the actor or the producer chooses to engage with the conversation. Think about White lotus right, they say that Mike White is really into that.

He loves that.

But also you can see some of the breakout stars of this recent series loved it, like Walton Goggins, Oh my God, Like he was the guy who played Rick. Now he's said, lean into that so Hardy popped up everywhere. Patrick Schwuerzner was everywhere. Patrick Schwarznegger was everywhere. They were leaning into it really hard. They were part of that conversation. And I think that an actor at the level of SJP, who lets be clear, we reference some of the businesses

Well, you're contractually obliged to promote a show when you're the star, and the whole point of the show is very much around her, and it's sold around her. But I do feel it's a little bit disingenuous. Well maybe that's just her stick that her publicist didn't go, Hey, Howard Stone's probably gonna ask you about the handlicking scene.

The more I learn about her, the more I love her.

I think she's fascinating.

I love her. I think she's the perfect celebrity. There was this great anecdote that she told about being in an airport. Robbie Williams recently talked about this, having people come up and wanting to get a photo, and because Sarah Jessica Parker has we believe, never owned a phone, she doesn't know what's happening, and she will turn to them. And she said, I turned to this woman in the airport and said, you have not even said hello to me. What I will give you is a conversation, and it

She's like from another tongue. I am worried about her a little bit in the show. She looks pretty miserable. I mean, it would be right that her character would be depressed. She's a widow. I think, you know, Big didn't die that long ago.

So funny, That's not how I'm reading it at all.

I'm really enjoying watching her be sword of single again, Like I'm loving seeing her in that house. I'm loving seeing her evolve. I think I loved actually the episode where she went to Virginia and Aidan's family, because she's talked about this, and I think it's true. I know everyone hates Carrie, and I'm a vigorous carry apologist.

Not everyone hates Carrie. She's very polarizing, polarized, but there are like entire websites about like why people should hate her so much. I actually really like Carrie, and I also think that she has changed, and she has you think she's I think she's changed, and I think she's going.

That and being like, do I want to be part of that? I love the handsome rider downstairs. I'm very into it.

She made a point to about the Carrie hate and how there are television shows that have been made about mass murderers, you know, a male mass murderer who doesn't get half the hate that Carrie Bradshaw does, and how there is something deeply sexist about our reading of Carrie. And I think that that's very true.

Is it sexist or is it that we you know, we talked on Monday Show about how when people find out who their trolls are, it's often someone who's essentially jealous of that.

I don't think we know what to do with complicated I.

Don't mean jealous necessarily of Carrie. But is it sexist or is it what Holly was saying in that we've spent so much time we identify with this character, you know that whole thing. Are you a Charlotte?

Are you carry?

And everyone wanted to be a Carrie that when they behave in ways that we don't like, we feel personally.

Betrayed or do like breaking bad or something like. There are shows about complicated men and we follow them every step and go I still like him? Has he killed forty five people?

Sure?

Whereas Carrie makes a morally dubious decision and we go. I think that's some wrong with her.

This is the thing about likable women, right, is that I like a lot of women, and some of my great friends, and I'm certain also me who are not perfect, and who makes selfish decisions sometimes and who sometimes are a bit annoying and sometimes are a bit self obsessed and sometimes go out with the wrong guy. Like, that's what we're actually like. And so I think that all the things you can throw at a carry that aren't real, you know, obviously obviously, the wardrobe, the money, all that stuff.

I'm a big fan.

Yeah, I think the criticism when I feel frustrated with her, it's because she hasn't evolved, not because she has. Like the whole thing with the shoes just feels so one note, and the you know that whole storyline where it was the thumbs up emoji or the thumbs down, like it just seems very stuck in the nineties, both with her cultural references, you know, when she was like, oh little house on the carry instead of there's no trad wife reference. It's almost like she exists, not in this world.

But I think she does. Carry.

Isn't a TikTok person, Not every woman who certainly the age that she is as plugged into the zeitgeist as you are. I mean, as cool and relevant and youthful as you are, my friend.

After the break, what is an acceptable amount of time to wait until you text someone back. There've been a few stories and newsletters and conversations in the zeitgeist over the last couple of months about the volume of texting

She called it maternal self soothing, which I thought was a really, really good phrase. It's almost pacifying for the person doing it to feel as though every time they have an anxious thought about their child or they worry, they almost want to perform the fact they're thinking about their child.

Well, it was.

Interesting because I had Luna for the weekend and you're away, Jesse, and when I have her, I do have that track going in my mind. I should capture this on video, I should capture this one.

And I have a track going in my mind that if I haven't checked in a few hours. Do people think I'm not thinking about her?

Yes? And I did think that. And I even said to Luca when I spoke to someone, like, what are you guys up to? You're not behaving in the normal way. You're not texting as often as you do, because usually when I've got her, it's like how is she? Especially from him? Actually, anyway, it just turned out that you were just having a brain time.

So when you just said I did think that. I don't think that Jesse didn't care about her daughter anymore.

No, I thought that they were to say kind of Shenanigan's weird sex weekend or something. I didn't know what was going on. And then also I'm like, well, why do I keep texting? Do I keep texting to show you how much fun she's having?

Is that about me?

Or is that about making you feel better? It's an interesting thing, But she says also, because when your kids are too young to have a phone, you choose not to give them a phone. All of this parent communication, the WhatsApp groups, the messages through playdates, the organizing of the social things falls disproportionately on the mother. So that's the parenting side of it. But then there's also the

It's one hundred percent true. We all are obsessed with being off our phones more, but we all demand instant responses to anything that.

We put out there.

So what I loved, particularly about what Caroline o'donahue wrote, which I really related to, is that she basically was saying that she was a bad texter, and she sort of threw out a few reasons of why she was a bad texter, and then she wrote this, She said, The thing is, I don't really want to be better at it. I'm bad at texting. I don't want to be good at it. I hate my phone, and so do you. I feel vulgar and sick when I spend too much time on it, and a never to Texting

What have I done? Why haven't they responded? Was I rude? And you go back and you read the text. Was I rude? Did I phrase that wrongly? Should I? Blah blah blah.

But when you don't reply to a text, you're like, that's fine, I don't need to reply to that.

And then when someone texts you and says is everything okay? Or are you mad with me? It feels like, well, it's another bit.

It's interesting because it brings up the question of which texts require a response and which ones don't.

The point there, o'donna who makes is that we have now seen constant connection as a proxy for intimacy. So if it's not a constant boom boom boom boom boom bom boom, then we're not as close as we were. And sometimes with friendships they go through a really intense period and then you go, we haven't texted. I think this all the time. I think about someone and I go, I should text them, And it's like we can't have that feeling without doing it. Whereas it used to be

Are you'd organized to get together in Yes.

But by that nature it wasn't always accessible and always possible. So she has this point about how just like in the nineteen fifties, when technology meant that vacuuming was easier, like you could finally vacuum rather than sweep, and you had a dishwasher, and you had all of these new things to make cleaning easier, and they were going to afford women more time. What happened was that our standards for cleaning just kept rising, and the same has happened

It also must change the texture of our relationships.

I don't know if you remember.

There was a skit in a Chris Rock special once where he talked about how marriage is before constant texting and marriage is after a different thing and they should be classified in a different time frame because you used to leave the house in the morning, spend all day doing whatever you were doing, come back together in the

You burn through relationships faster because you've reached the point of peak everything, like you've just known each other really, really well. And I think that group chats are a specific type of connection because they can just go all the time, like constantly, and there might be twenty people in them. But I don't necessarily think that people who are bad at texting. I never get the sense that I'm mad at them all. I think they don't like me.

I find group chats in a way easier. And I know that you know some people are in group chats, some people aren't. But what I've made peace with now is sometimes a group chat can be going on and you're not in it, and you're not involved, and it's okay. It's almost like social media, like when you pick up your phone to look at social media, you don't go back to the beginning of You just jump in the stream wherever you are, write it for a little while and then post.

Now.

It's also that, and I think it was O'donahu who made this point. I mean, our work communications are in the same place that our social communications are, and every notification from a friend's message to an urgent work email is presented the same on a phone. So you get this spike of like must open now. And what I've tried to do is go do not open the message until you can answer it. So if that means that at nine pm you go, all right, I'm going to because then I enjoy it, like I sit down and

We're being spied on the way in that context, So on that and this idea that we all feel a little abandoned if we're left on red, what do you think that messages you do have to respond to? And how long is it okay to leave between Because this original story, she was saying, a lot of people start their text and I certainly do this sometimes with so I just saw this, and she says that she has a friend who she considers to have a very relaxed,

I assume that they've done the thing where they've opened it, they've gone, I'll get back to that. They've then had seven hundred and eighty other thoughts within two hours and they've totally forgotten and that's fine. And if it's urgent. I'll follow up, but I'm never ever getting my feelings hurt that I haven't got a response.

What about Eamia.

I've got so many going at once that I don't notice.

To be honest, sometimes I feel I've been many to bring this up with your Maia. Sometimes you throw a link in our chat and I go, I'll read that, and then I don't get back to you, and I feel like you're sitting there going they didn't read my link.

It's true because Mia throws great links like the quality is high. Yeah, I'm but it means probably at the time she said, I don't have ten minutes to sit and read that, so I'll be like, I'll get to that later, by which time Maya will have forgotten about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I fear that I've hurt your feeling.

So to be clear, because you're right, my love language is sending links of things that I think people will find interesting. I don't expect a response even necessarily. Ever, it's more here's a little thing. I have to send it now because I'm reading it now and I won't find it again. But here's a little thing I thought you might enjoy. Not let's discuss this together. Please read it. Unless it's like, oh my god, yeah, it's just happen immediately.

And also you know, sometimes I've got a friend who I'll go so I'll meet you at seven and she'll love heart it, And I'm.

Like, was that a yes? Or enough? Are we on at seven?

I don't know, be clear. I just love how it was through it. Do not call me, stage text me, and now we've gone to it, do not text me. I don't want to reply. I also don't want to be emailed. I definitely don't want you at my door. I think that what we're saying is like go away. And this is what o'donna who said, is that I post on social to prove to myself that I exist question.

Mind.

Yeah, we're also lonely, and.

Yet there is a different thing. Often I'll see a text come through and I go, I don't have the social energy to construct a reply yet, and then I have to wait for that to kind of come back. It takes a different part of you to kind of give it justice.

I think it's not don't call me, don't text me, don't anything me. It's I only want to communicate on my terms when I want to communicate. Anything else is an inconvenience, And it's to do with what we've discussed lots of times about. However, thing's on demand now, so we're like, I might have ten minutes to have a proper catch up with you, but you might not, And so now with voice notes, and then it's who's got time for that one? And baby, sometimes we should just bring back the phone call.

Your favorite podcast is now a video but a vodcast the future or crap Telly. That's a headline from the Guardian last month, and it feels uncomfortably pointed. So if you're big into podcasting, you might have noticed that a lot of the blockbuster podcasts now if you're listening on Spotify, like a video of that will come up at the same time they're publishing full videos along with the audio.

Yeah, slightly dubious numbers in terms of I think the way they measure a view of a podcast is like one.

Second interesting, but still.

I mean, you only just have to flick through your social media, and all of my social media now is pretty much just podcasts reels of podcasts.

A lot of men I know are watching a Joe Rogan like that. Stuff is really big. Whether we like it or not, vodcasts are happening. They'll be coming to streaming services, and this shift is in large part than by gen z, who use YouTuber's background television in a way that isn't native to me. Some industry insiders reckon vodcasts are just crap telly, and there's resistance by many who don't want to consume another form of entertainment that has them gaping at a screen like they've loved how

So most women are doing other things right now while they're listening to this. I can see you. You are washing up, you are going for a walk, you are pretending to a boring story, or child is telling you.

Yeah. Others, however, like the idea of seeing hosts that they're familiar with and having them on in their house. We're getting a lot of questions about our pivot because we're in our new podcast era. We're in our vodcast era. Maya, are we trying to be shitty television? Is that the strat? Is that the strategy?

Yeah, strat, that's definitely the strategy you mentioned, jen Z. But the thing that's really driving it all, of course is capitalism. Jesse, I can't believe goodness and the tech platforms because the thing that's so great about podcasts is that they're not algorithmic. At the moment, your podcast feed wherever you listen to it, say, Spotify and Apple are probably the two biggest platforms. Let's leave YouTube out of it.

You can go and have a look at charts if you want to try to see what's trending.

Yeah, and that's kept podcasts really beautiful and pure in a way because it means that it's not just the most extreme content that rises to the surface like it does whenever an algorithm's introduced. But the problem with that is that podcasts have always been hard to share and hard for people to discover new ones because an algorithm is not putting things into your feed that you think you might be interested in. Now, we're not unhappy about that, except for the part where it can be hard to

One of the things we used to particularly like about pure audio is that it just is a fact that as soon as you can see someone talking, you're not just listening to them talking. You are reading a whole lot of cues from everything you can see from clearly what they look like, in terms of have they brushed their hair, have they done their makeup?

What are they wearing? All the little clues, Oh, whats that necklace? Me has got on? Oh, someone says a bit tired today. Any TV presenter will.

Tell you that they get more feedback about what they're wearing and how they've done their lipstick female TV presenters than anything they ever say or report. And so there's something wonderfully freeing about the idea that no people are just engaging with your voice and your thoughts and your ideas.

Those days are gone.

We are now out of hiding, and I think it's so fine like, I think it's absolutely fine, but it's definitely a different relationship.

I reckon for women in particular, the pivot will be to having it on in the background. I've had a lot of women I know talk about having a podcast up on YouTube on their television while they go and do something else, and they're kind of listening, and they like the familiarity of a host who's voice. They recognize the idea that you would sit down as some sort

Commercial TV is broadcasting, and podcasts and other forms of digital media tend to be narrow cast. So for example, we're a podcast for women, that wouldn't be our primetime show, and yet we are a daily show and we have a really big audience. The other thing to note is that it's all about choice. So we are now on YouTube. You can watch us on YouTube, but nothing's going to change. The podcast that you hear is going to be the same.

And so if you listen to us on Spotify, if you listen to us on Apple, no difference at all. You will see some podcast videos on Spotify and sometimes I wonder, Oh, if I don't want to watch the video because I'm always doing something else, I'm not watching them, will it still use up my data? It won't if you've set your settings to not download video. So nothing changes unless you go and seek it out out loud.

As friends come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. So to podcast segments, don't worry. The show's not going to be over, but we are retiring a segment that we've done for a while that's pretty popular, Best and Worst.

We are big the grounds.

I know people pissed, pissed, or maybe maybe she is going, yes, you know what, shut the fuck up hearing about your life.

We wanted to take you into the tent and explain to you why. And we tried once before to get rid of Best and Worse, and there was a big outcry, and so we brought it back. But we are actually getting rid of it this time, or retiring it, putting it on hiatus, and sending it out to pasta for the following reasons. The first is probably that, as you can understand, when you're talking about the worst thing that happened to you in a week, it's often something that

There's not a lot of wisdom to offer.

No, here's the tell of when we knew it had to happen. Brent got a stick stuck in his had, and my first response was, at least I've got a worse this week.

We've all had those moments, and it was also a low point where me or and I were jealous that you had such and we were sitting around waiting for a parking ticket or something so that we.

Had something to show great worst.

So sometimes it means that you're kind of curating and relating to your life through a slightly strange So I'm sure we're still going to talk about all kinds of stuff, all kinds of nonsense. We're still going to keep Fridays light and fun. Right, yep, exactly right, But no best and worse for now after the break, we have recommendations.

We are still having recommendations.

We are still telling you on Fridays in this particular week what to watch this weekend.

What unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from Mum and Maya. Subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week. And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

This is my best recommendation.

I feel like our recos this week because we've all chosen the TV show, and I think that they are very true to our personalities the TV shows we've chosen this week. When we were talking about in the meeting, I was like, that is the most Jesse recommendation of all time.

And it's going to be everyone's favorite. Don't even matter.

Go with your recommendation of the weeklyase out louders.

I have been waiting for this documentary. It was coming on Netflix and it landed end of last week and it is called titan the Ocean Gates Submersible Disare. Oh okay, it is brilliant, so it's just come out. It is about the twenty twenty three deep sea dive in the submersible that ultimately imploded and killed lots of peace and it killed five people. But the reason this documentary is so brilliant is because it is about the hubris of

There was no way of.

Knowing where title was going to fail, but it was a.

Mathematical certainty that it would fail.

Stockton saw an opportunity to restart tourist physics to.

Titanic Stockton fully believed in what he was doing and that it would work. He wanted to fame to fuel his his ego theme, I have.

No desire to die.

I understand this.

Kind of risk.

I thought Stockton was a borderline psychopath. How do you manage a person like that who owns the company.

It is the story of the descent of a lot of his employees who were raising the alarm and saying, I'm not comfortable with this. And what's fascinating is that he got in it against the advice of everyone. He would go down four thousand feet however deep. He wanted to test it, and they were like, don't put a human in it. Just send it down, but don't put someone in it. And he would do it because of his own ridiculous sort of ego, or also.

That he just could not understand risk very well.

And it did seem that way right And I won't give away too much.

But we know how it ended well.

One of the most fascinating details, though, is that this submersible was being made with carbon fiber, which had never been done before. And if you can make a submersible with a material that is cheaper and lighter, big deal. Right, but what was happening and you can hear it the amount of footage that they have. They always had go pros, they had a videographer with them.

And there's all that in the documentary.

You can see down there. You can see what the submersible looks.

Like, the six of that in terms of the people who are down.

So they don't have any footage from that one. They have footage from the other kind of dives that they did. But what you would hear is popping, really loud popping, and it was the sound of the carbon fiber breaking and everyone was going, you know, we know how this is going to end. And so when these former employees saw the story, they knew exactly what had happened. The narrative is great and it is just a really well done, well produced documentary. You have to watch it. It's on Netflix.

Are you going to be watching that?

No, I'm not going.

To Maya, but different.

It makes for different.

It made me like you more. Can I tell you why?

Why?

Because I thought she wouldn't.

Mayor has had some mad ideas, but none of them involve a submersible. No, don't get me wrong. If you made submersibles, I think you probably would make us get into one and go come on, guys.

Great content, do it for the ground.

And sometimes you make us do unusual things.

I've had to do some TikTok dancing out. Wasn't that keen on exactly?

Stakes are a bit lower exactly? And I went, you know what, I appreciate that. I turned to Luca Mayor, isn't that bad after all?

So true? She may not understand risk, but she wouldn't put us in a submersible.

Wasn't safe.

I've got something very, very different to watch after that has sent you into a spiral of despair. No, I actually thought about watching that because it does look really, really interesting. I just am finding the news is so bleak at the moment. I just want to have a laugh. And I started watching a show that kept being served to me on Prime Video. It's called over Compensating.

Welcome to College.

You can be whoever you want to be here can I'm Benny Cormen, I'm a man Innx's cousin.

How the freshman ladies treat me? Either you're a dude?

Who or? And it's written, directed, and stars a guy called Benito's Skinner who's like His name on Instagram is Benny Drama. He's a thirty one year old actor and comedian and he wrote this story that's pretty much exactly based on him. But it's fiction about a guy who goes to college and he's like a jock and captain of the football team, and he's gay and he's closeted, and he meets this girl who's got her own story and they become really close friends after trying to hook up,

So I'm not actually here right now. I am so obsessed with this TV show that I have just discovered that I am currently rolling around on a sandy beach with a really handsome hunter who can slay a dragon with his bare hands.

Not a dragon, a lion. A lion with his bare hand.

Oh my god, I've not heard of these.

Harry P. Ruster, is what I'm talking about.

She's nodding, because I have recently discovered my first show in the Yellowstone Universe. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Yes, Yellowstone, everyone who watches says is brilliant, But I didn't know there was a universe.

This guy, I don't know a lot about him is called Taylor Sheridan. His politics might be a little dodgy, so we won't go too deep into that, but he has created Yellowstone, which is this massive smash for paramount that stars Kevin Costner, and it's been It's one of the most watched shows in the world, absolutely huge on a ranch and so popular that it now has spin offs. It has one I think it's called nineteen eighteen or something.

You've been missus Dutton, though he would seems we're neighbors, have acquired the Stafford Ranch. Well, this is the yellow Stone and you have no rights here, jegab you can't start a range war. Range wars already started.

How much you'll ide you on?

I want the whole valley.

Either we take this fight to them or it's common.

Us men kill quick with a bullet or a nurse, but they're fighters with me, and I kill much slower.

Is that when it's set, it's set in nineteen twenty three. It'd be weird if it was it Jesse in between the wars, right, And it's about this family in Montana, the patriarch matriarchy, Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren. So we're not fucking about here, We're not fucking about Wow, we are top tiering it, right. Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren are the people on the ranch who like that. And you know it's under threat from a mining company and

He was apparel if the good guy in it ends with us?

Oh gorgeous, Yeah.

Unbelievably gorgeous. And he meets this young english woman blah blah blah. Anyway, we don't need to know any more details except that their chemistry you know. Sometimes and maybe this is just me, but I remember now all the way back to being a kid, that you'd watched some shows where the chemistry between a couple was so amazing it just like.

Swept you up in it.

Is it humpy?

It's humpy?

Yes?

In there having these two people are having a lot of great sex. But they're not having a lot of great sex. Some other people in the house are but our friend Spencer and his fancy English lady Alex having a lot of great sex. But it's not corny like it's what they call closed door sex, right, So you see everything leaving offit disappointed a little bit. His shirt's

I've sold me on it.

I want to go back and I want to watch these people do whatever they're doing. And I don't really want Harrison Ford to keep his rent because he's a bit of a dick, but I really really want my matexpense anyway, So that was a sity.

I'm only in season one, so don't actually anyhow it happens. There are two.

Seasons and the second one just dropped, so it's called nineteen twenty three.

It's on Paramount Plus.

It's part of the Yellowstone thing and I am now officially obsessed.

That's like when I got really into Downton Abbey and Bridgington. Yes, because the steaks, it just felt so otherworldly. No one had phones, and the Gilded Age is coming back too. I'm very excited about it.

Is interesting because I'm not I'm not always a historical drama person, but sometimes you know, you just get so swept up in it and maybe you need it at that time or whatever. But it's an escape, a proper escape. Anyway, I'm loving it and that's my Raco. That is all we've got time for today, out louders, thank you for being with us this week. As always, We're going to be back in your ears on Monday, of course, Jesse and Mia. What else have we got to tell everybody.

A big thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Emmeline Gazillis, our audio producer is Leah Porges, video.

Producer Josh Green, our junior content producers Coco and Tessa, and our studios at Muma Mea are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au. Before we go, I want to give everyone a little treat with another recommendation. I want to play us out with a beautiful song by a very dear friend of mine that's come out this week. It's pure weekend vibes. Her name is Jackie Oberg. She's talented and brilliant.

Bye bye bye.

Be alone, shy love, whom I do you?

If I could only be mysel? Would I still be too much?

Oh?

You love?

Memory?

Would let you my.

Jesus really love. Shout out to any MoMA Maya subscribers listening. If you love the show and want to support us as well, subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way to do so. There is a link in the episode description