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Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.
It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the twenty fourth of October.
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm m Burnham and I'm back again.
Hello.
I'm Claire Murphy.
Hi Claire, Hello Claire, And here's what's made our agenda for today, a day when, as we always do on Friday shows, we avoid the news like the plague, and we just splash about in whatever we want to talk about, having some fun. We are having some fun, and I want to talk about other people's marriages.
I love that because I'm very nosy. Plus I need a little bit of advice from you guys. What to say to dog owners who tell you it's okay, he's friendly when their dog is like running straight at you and you don't know what they're going to do.
And cowboys, billionaires and bad boys.
No, that is not my dating pressure right now.
Why are we all suddenly addicted to happily ever after? But first we have a brand new term to obsess over and it's come from one of our own. It's come from an out louder named Alison. Alison posted in our Facebook group and she said, I've decided to do something I'm calling a shobby. Shobby it's short for short term hobby, right.
You're not committing like gardening is my hobby now, My identity's.
Long term, and you tell people about it so too much. She said.
Basically, I had the urge, for absolutely no earthly reason whatsoever, to learn to wrap the entirety of lose yourself by eminem by girl.
His arms are sweaty, these weak arms are heap's vomit on a sweater already mar spaghetti.
He's nervous.
So, just to clarify that is in fact eminem Allison has not achieved her shop yet, but she hasn'tntil Christmas, so she's got some time.
Well, thank you for clarifying. I would have been very confused had you not.
She says.
It's so much fun. No one else even knows I'm doing it. This is my new shebby, just for me. So before we get into it, she's also given us a list of rules for a shokay great. She says, the shobby has to be discreet and time limited. Once it's done, it's done. No signing up for classes, So she can't learn.
All the world's to lose yourself and then go, you know what now, I love that. I'm going to learn all the words to fight for your right to party. She can't do an eminem discography.
Okay, she's just doing it and she's not telling anyone, and it's like a little party trick she can whip up, right, She said, it's solely for fun, nothing earnest. You might learn something, but that's not the point. It's literally just to give yourself something interesting and the detaining to do to tickle your brain or body. Also, no accountability partners. If you don't do it or finish it, no one knows or cares. It doesn't create clutter to live in
the garage. Whatever it is, you can figure it out on YouTube.
I love this Scottish shebby's.
I feel like I had one without realizing it was a shobby because I had always wanted to participate in a pub choir. Oh yeah, and I did it recently and it was really fun and I never want to do it again.
Wait, what's a pub choir. I did that once too.
It's a choir but with drinking, So you go to a part I mean, don't have to drink, it's not the rules, but you go and do it in a bar. There's a woman who's made it pub choir, a massive things called astroid. I don't know what a second was anyway, but you can go to one like I went to one at my local RSL when I lived in Sydney. And they teach you a song to be Tuesday night
and they teach you a song. They split you into groups and you all everyone has a drink and sings a song and it is very wholesome and very fun.
The beauty of it too is that if you're a bit shit, it doesn't really matter because everyone else around you was singing and kind of makes up for it.
So it's just like a big karaoke session.
I really like the no accountability because regular outlouders will know that. I came back from my holiday this year and I was like, I'm learning Italian. Remember, duelingo became my personality for a while. Do you know how annoying those duo lingo endless freaking? Like, remind hey, don't break your streak, hey, and they text you and they're in the emails and the apps pop it upon it. It's like you are annoying me out of wanting to learn Italian now and.
Also would due LINGO from what I remember when I used it briefly, is that you don't actually learn phrases that you need.
It's usually stuff like how do I buy this lamp?
Yeah, I'm getting a lot of like the red skirts are cheaper than the black skirts.
And I'm like, when would I use that?
I mean, if you're going over as some kind of shopping adventure for a brand or store, but imagining in day to day life not overly helpful. So did have you stopped?
I haven't stopped, But it's touched my inner rebel in that when those come up and they say you're going to break your streak, there's a bit of me because you know, I'm busy person.
It's just like you're at the bottom of me. We're little green bird who cares if I break my streak? Like I can start again to I know, but you've already told us. So now we're all asking you. You can't break your stream?
What's your shebby my shobby is so I have a little digiticam like a digital camera.
I've seen you taking photos in the office. Yes, I've been.
Taking a lot of photos on it, and I've started to create little like digital albums and sharing them with my friends and family. But now I feel like I've over committed to this bit that now every single time I'm going to an event, they're all like, where's your digital camera?
Accountability? And we need we need to and everyone wants photos.
Oh stopping so good at it? Then be a bit shitter and people won't care.
I want to talk about other people's marriages.
Surprise, surprise, specifically our opinions about them and how we project onto them. Right, allow me to present a sub stack and subsequent peace on Mom and Miya that we published in the days after Victoria Beckham's Netflix documentary, and the title of this article was Oh Victoria, your husband is not on your team? And it is written by Holly no relation Bell now. In it, Holly Bell wrote, I have come here to have my say about Victoria
Beckham because I am really worried about her. She also wrote, I'm here to stick my nose in where it's not required as usual any claims here are alleged, and this is only my point of view. Your view might be different, and that is good for already being the spice of life.
Blah blah. Now I want to be really clear. People in glasshouses.
Right, There is a large part of my professional life that is all about dissecting pop culture moments about celebrities.
It's a job.
It's my job, exactly, and so there's no doubt that I often veer into this kind of stuff where I'm like making a lot of presumptions about people's private lives that are absolutely none of my business.
So I'm not being on a high horse about what I'm about to say.
It's just that so many people sent me this article by Holly Bell, like even before we published it on MoMA Mea when it was a people dm'd it to me.
My friends texted it to me. They were all like, oh my god.
This as in like they thought you would agree with it, well, that I would maybe agree with it, that I have a kinto about it, right, yeah, that.
I would have thoughts, and of course you don't have thoughts.
And now we're here, and now we're here, but I want to unpack a few of Bell's points and then well, I'll talk about why it obsessed me. Basically, the premise of Hollybell's story was that that DOCCO when it came to Victoria and David Beckham together, was full of red flags.
She said.
Some of the red flags was a long list, but one of them was there was a scene where he's making a smoothie in the kitchen and she says he turned the blender on every time she started speaking, and.
That was funny.
I thought it was funny for me, it was kind of funny. It depends, I think, on whether he does shit like that all the time or whether that was like a hamming it up for the camerig moment.
Yeah.
So Holly Bell's said about that, that what he was insinuating that she's less important than blended vegetables. She can't complain, or she can't take a joke, she can't stop him, or she's being the fun police.
Okay, red flag number one, red flag number two.
In the infamous Rolls Royce meme, we all remember that from the first David do Co she was talking about being for a working class background and he comes to the door and he's like, tell the truth, Tell the truth and she's like, my dad had a Rolls Royce.
Holly Bell writes that this is him being jealous of her.
Family's money and uncomfortable because he came from a different background.
But we did find out a little bit on context to that Rolls Royce thing in this documentary, because it wasn't like they lived in a palace. They lived in a rundown old place that her dad essentially put together piece by piece whilst also running his electronics business, and so he was really kind of a trade I guess at the heart of it. Also, he was working class.
She was really yeah, and we went into this in detail on out loud.
This isn't a complex English class system thing see Gin and Coke. Anyway, that's I digress. But what I see when I see that Tell the Truth is a couple who've had a long history and they take the piss out of the stories that everyone tells about themselves. That's what I see, right when I see that bit, I don't see anger. I see like affection and joshing. And this is what I'm getting to, right.
It's like how we all see something different in the same things.
And then she also says there's a red flag in that bit at the beginning where David offers Victoria a chocolate when he knows she's not going to eat a chocolate and she says something like I haven't eaten chocolate since the nineties, and everyone goes ha ha ha, And then later in the documentary she talks more seriously about her issues with food and disordered eating. Holly Bell wrote, he's telling a story because he was also famously said she won't eat what he cooks for her.
She only eats like fish, fish, and vegetables.
He's telling this story to paint a negative picture of Victoria while gilding himself with a halo of loving to share food with his wife. She goes on to suggest that he might be Posh's ongoing trigger, that, my friends, is what we call an overstep in the inner us?
Is it again? What I see there as a joke, like a bit of a dangerous joke, but a joke.
Between two people who've been together for nearly like something that you think he ongoingly like asks her, do you want a piece of chocolate?
And the bit is, but do we get the picture right?
The Posh doco from my perspective, is a highly managed, highly edited documentary, So I think that what I see in it is I see the bits of their life they wanted to share. Of course, and it's quite lighthearted and it's a bit of a joke. But what other people saw, what Holly Bell saw and a lot of people who loved that story and shared it was a
marriage that had serious power dynamics. And this plays into my theory that really when we look at celebrity relationships and we may call our assumptions about them, it's all about our experiences.
So if you've had a.
Controlling partner who was I mean, and I have in my time but not for a long time, who you know, will be like do you want a piece of chocolate knowing you won't have it, or teasing you about what you're eating, or like poking at a vulnerability of yours, You would probably see that scene really differently to if you're like my husband or my partner or whatever takes the piss out of me.
About being on a diet or you know, growing up rich or not. You know what I mean, It's all about what you see and also like what.
You want to see, Like you kind of pick and choose how you interpret their interactions between each other. When I watched the documentary, it's interesting because I didn't see everything that Holly saw, who wrote the substack, But I
also didn't see affection at all. What I saw was like every other Gen X relationship I've ever seen, where it's like partners who like each other but actually don't really show it out loud, and like especially that end scene where they're walking in the garden and they literally look like best friends because they're not touching each.
Other together for nearly thirty years.
Yeah, but like they're not like lovey dovey, But I also don't think they hate each other. And I like, it just looks like an average relationship. Like not definitely not the relationship I would want ever, but it just looks average.
We expecting it to look like a fairy tale because their beginnings were so fairy tale, so we expect that fairy tale to have extended for thirty years. Is that what we're hoping?
Well, should look like they at least like it.
I think they definitely look like they like each other. I think they look like they like each other a lot.
But do you think Murphy that one of the reasons we're so obsessed with other people's marriages, like whether they're celebrities or people we sort of adja like, no, by all, look at that couple over there that I'm talking over dinner, or look at those people over there, look at how he didn't pull a chair out, or whatever it is, because we're kind of raw shark testing things, like you know, we see what we see according to our own experiences.
I think that is absolutely bang on, because I would actually hate for cameras to come in and record what Adam and I, my husband and I say to each other sometimes because we are constantly taking the piss out of each other in ways that require some law to be learned before you can and participate. And so they looking in at us might think we are absolute assholes to each other. But the reality is that's a long history of funny things that we've collected over the years
and we internally find hilarious. But people looking in would be like, oh my god, do you guys even like each other? Whereas like we go to bed at night laughing at other people who might think that we don't like each other, if you know what I mean. So, like I felt that a little bit from passion becks. I also feel like they've never had an opportunity to just kind of be to like settle and not put
on a show. Like their entire lives essentially have been showmanship from her, from him, from both of them together. Now they're family because as you know, you've probably mentioned that, you know, there's some family members that do not rate a mention during the recording of Victoria Beckham. Their whole life is a show, so maybe they just don't put
on the PDAs. Although the one thing I did find a little bit uncomfortable is that Victoria seemed outwardly affectionate to him, and he didn't seem to return it very often.
And I think think that is when you mentioned gen X couples, and I think that is sometimes a bit of an m O for gen X couples, where men are supposed to kind of be this unemotional sort of flat line when it comes to certain things, but when they talk about say cars or football, or, in you know Beckham's case, his food, they're allowed to be emotional and passionate about that garden. Yeah, the garden, like the chickens whatever. He seems very excited by.
He loves the garden.
Celebrity relationships. I mean, I know you're probably too sensible for this, murf, but I might be wrong. And I know AM's got some good examples, But are there any celebrity relationships that you do look at and either go, you know, I want to emulate that, or oh I feel that, so you know, like I do that raw shark testing stuff on.
Naomi Watts and her husband Billy crudd Up. I think I look at them, but they are like married later in life couple, which is really different from say, Hugh Jackman and Debraly Finesse, who got married quite young, and then we've seen them kind of progress out of love. And so I I felt like we held up some of these couples and thought, like, if they fail, then surely I can't not fail too, because they've presented this fairytale ideal of what marriage looks like to the outset,
and we saw this with Nicole and Keith too. And something someone said to me a little while ago is I used to get really upset that my husband doesn't post stuff about us on social media. In fact, he doesn't post anything, but like I was upset that, like not even a happy birthday, not even like a look at this woman on my wedding anniversary. Nothing right. And then a friend said to me, look, it is often a measure of an insecure relationship if there's too much
posting on social media. And I looked into it a little bit, and there is a lot of research around that, and that we saw Nicole quite regularly posting lovey dovey stuff about Keith and he's kind of like he'll chuck an emoji and every now and then, so less kind of you know, reaction from him. And so was that her trying to cover up the fact that she was
really insecure in her relationship. So yes, I've held up some of these marriages over time and gone like I would love to be like that, love to be like that. But then eventually you kind of look at them and you go, we're all kind of similar, except I have less outward pressure from money probably and way less money, and you know, no one's stalking me outside my front door.
Emma. The celebrity couples that you go, that's what I want.
Oh my god, Okay, I need to talk about Dua Lipa and Callum Turner.
Have you guys seen them today?
In fact, that they allegedly met and were sitting next to each other at a party and they realized they're reading the same.
Book page and that's why they fell in love. And I was like that, and that you're the two hottest people party by about a million.
I'm googling them right now. I need to see images of them.
They're very PDA. Yeah, I do not believe that meat cute story, although that's very cute.
And also it plays into something we've discussed before, and which is there's nothing hotter than a man who reads. If he's doing all that's a true story, then good for him. And if it's not a true story, then good for him for being smart enough. Because everyone knows Jua Lipa likes to reach.
He has a bottle. Anyway, I digress, goem these two extremely attractive people. When they are together, it's.
Like, I don't think they're allowed to not touch each other. He's always has his hands around her hips. They're always giggling, they're always making out, they're always laughing into each other's mouths.
It is like I can't look away, no, and it loves them. Just said so, and similar to.
Like your sad gen X celebrity relationships, like they're the relationship that I feel like younger women are holding onto and they're telling us, like, that's exactly how relationships should be.
But and I hate to be this person, but I've got to be this person. Do you think they're going to be doing exactly that in twenty years if they stay together for twenty years, go through a whole.
Lot, Oh my god, if they're laughing into each other's mouths in twenty years time.
Lo, you have to have they have to have respect for the fact that love changes and grows and doesn't look the same all the time, but it's still a real thing, you know what I mean. Like, so again, I think that they're a wonderful.
Raw shark, like he loves he loudly.
Yeah, you want someone to fall in love with you like that, to be so proud of you like that, find you irresistible like that, But you acknowledge they're in a honeymoon face.
No, No, this is them, this is them forever, like he loves a loudly. Very many grown up couples with children who.
Still do that.
Well, No, I have a lot of friends who are like that. But have they been together twenty years.
No, but it's just like he loves a loudly and like he made me realize I never want a nonchalant man. I want my man to be as chalant as possible, out.
Loud as up next, I am bringing my dilemma to the table because I have a dog that does not like other dogs. But other dog owners don't seem to care. So, ladies, you know how sometimes we do chats in the subscriber episodes of Mamma Me are out loud where people riding their delay. I would like to take this opportunity to do one on myself, if that's okay with you.
I have a dog.
She is one of my very best friends. She's a Scottish deer hound cross with a border Collie kelpie. So black and white, short haired, very long legs, and I love her desperately. She sounds very fast, She is for very short bursts of time and then sleeps a lot.
She's a rescue. She I remember when you got her.
I think we may have got our dogs around the same time, so tightly bonded to Sydney.
Yes.
So the thing with her, and the thing with rescues in general, is you never really know what you're going to get behaviorally when this dog arrives. And she was a pandemic puppy, so I got all the time in the world to spend at home with her learning her. Now we've taken her to professional trainers because she does not like men, so we seem to have gotten her past that she's recovering. However, she had a run in
with a tiny dog and it has changed her personality now. No, if you've never owned a tiny dog dog, they can be quite aggressive. They may have some kind of small man syndrome. I don't know what it is, but they will take on bigger dogs with little care.
They will. My dog doesn't like little dogs, and no prejudices against little dogs. They're very cute, but they do like to come up and have a goat, don't they.
They really really do. And the thing about little dogs, and I want to say also extends to little dog owners, is the thought that they're a little dog and can do no harm allows them to touch more freedom than say a bigger dog that looks a little scarier. So we've done a lot of training with her. However, the running with the little dog has meant she now really does not like little dogs. So I am very careful
about when I walk her. I take her out at times of day when I know, like lots of other people will be out and about when we go away. Sometimes that's unavoidable. And I had an interaction with a lady on the beach, and I want to preface this by saying I do not have a problem with people walking their dogs off leash if you know how to recall your dog when it is necessary. I also want to say I never walk my dog in specific off leash areas that I know people are allowed to have
their dogs off leash. There are lots of places where dogs are off leish where they're not supposed to be. So I was walking my dog on the beach and a small dog came barreling at my dog, barking, and I thought, holy shit, this is going to end badly. So I stepped in between them and very loudly yelled no at this dog right and thank god it stopped. But the owner, who was quite a ways away, approached me and said, it's okay, he's friendly, which is great.
And like if I was by myself and your dog came running at me, I would love nothing more than to get to know your dog on a personal level. Like I love dogs. I will pat strangers dogs with permission all the time. However, my dog is not friendly to your dog, and if your little dog comes running up, I can't guarantee that my beautiful, big, slightly mentally traumatized dog won't do something that might injure your small dog.
This is tricky. So what happened?
So the lady got a little angry with me because I said to her, my dog's not friendly, can you please put your dog on a leash? And she went, ah, put your dog on a leash, and it started that whole business.
Oh no, the confrontations with dogs is always bad, bad, bad, Yeah it is.
And people are passionate about off leash dog walking and they don't mind their dog goes up to other dogs because their dog is friendly and they know that they don't have any issues. So I just don't know how to have this because I didn't handle it well after she kind.
Of did you do fisty cuffs? I'm just imagining. And then I got arrested.
I'm currently on probation.
No I And then I murdered a woman from the beach.
I mean, it came close, but we like we were yelling, and I was like, I can't stop your dog. I needed to stop your dog before she gets to my dog. And she's like, well, then you shouldn't be walking your dog out in public. Like it all went like that and it was really yucky. But now I just don't know what do I say to those people in that situation.
Look Out louder are going to have a lot of opinions about this, because this is one of those things.
Yeah, this is one of those things.
Because similarly, my dog, she's lovely dog, of course I think that, And we walk her along the river near my place and it is an off lead area and I'll have her off lead, but when I see a small dog approaching.
I'll always put my dog on the lead.
Quit Again, she's not mad keen on little dogs, and I would hate for there to be a scene.
Now.
I think responsible dog owners usually when they see you do that, like when they see that you're doing that putting your dog on the lead, they will do the same. Like it's like a mirroring behavior, like an unspoken mirroring behavior, like they'll go, oh, that dog obviously, so you know, and then they'll put their dog on the lead and you walk past each other and you go hi, and
then you move on with your lives. But when people don't do that, and I've had exactly the same thing happen, Claire, the little dog will come barreling up and really be like remember, and you're like.
Please go away, please go and you're like shitting yourself, like this is a real bad qu.
I know it's really tricky, but I don't think there's a perfec to answer to it, because yes, I think ideally everybody's hyper aware of this stuff and like, oh, that dog looks.
Like it's got issues, I'll put it up. But they're not.
They're talking to their mate, they're doing something else. They're thinking, my dog's fine, so my dog's fine, And I just don't know, Like I think we have to just have a contract where we have to assume people are generally doing their best.
I also feel like dog culture has changed so much since I've had my family dogs, which I think they passed away like a few years ago now, But when we had our dogs and we were growing up with our dogs, I don't think I ever saw a dog off the lead like it was just given that your dog would always be on the lead, and then if dogs were crossing, you would know it would be like a slightly dangerous dog because you owly will pull them like well off the path and then like exactly what
you said, hold, then I'd pull my dogs well off the path because they had had a few run ins with like dogs trying to attack them, and then they would get scared and then we have to lift them. And they were like these big beagles and they were so and they just hated being on the crowd.
It was like this, we are I think you're right, and I think there're also dog owners a little bit. We're all a bit biased towards our dogs, right, So even though I do that with my dog, I put her on the lead to avoid little dogs. If I'm walking her past a little dog and the owner picks the little dog up protectively, like keep.
You away from that beast, I'm a bit like, you know, vested on my dog's behalf my dog even though.
Right like go get that dog, but also too, I've had a moment where like I even put her in a vest, a big yellow vest that said nervous, full high vis trading style because this is back when she hated men, when she was in training, And so I put her in the big high ve's vest and I presumed that that would be warning enough for people to kind of stay away from her. But it was not enough.
I was standing had a set of traffic lights, well away from everybody else, and then I heard my dog's jaws snap, like you know that real dog snap like they've gone to bite someone. And I've turned around and there was a man trying to pat her who's come up from behind me, And I was like, oh my god, if you don't be trying to.
Fast, always ask if you're going to pad a dog exactly.
And she's wearing a giant yellow vest that says nervous, like please.
I think it was a yellow vest. If I saw a yellow vest on dog, I'm like, I'm padding that dog. It's wearing a yellow vest.
Oh no, it was more of an attractant and a different I hate that. Please, like help me out loud as if you have got a way to handle the people that say, oh, it's okay, he's friendly when your dog is not, Like, what do you do that doesn't result in a murder happening? Afterwards between dog owners.
I have one quick anecdote to add to that, right is, in my neighborhood, one time, tune at my dog had to run in with another local dog.
This dog is literally called Damien.
And of the omen Okay, See, one of the things about dogs is you do have to accept that, even when they're very well trained, they are wild animals and shit's going to happen sometimes, right, And these dogs used to play together really happily, and one day they didn't and Damien bit on the neck and Tuna was quite she had go to hospital.
It was a whole thing.
We've never been to that dog polk since. But the next time I saw them on the road, like Damien and his owner and they walking down the road and I saw him and I kind of waved and I said, oh, hi, Demon, I said, and the woman was like, it's not called Demon, And I was thinking, shiit, what's he called.
I know he's a devil dog. I know he's a bad dog. I mean, there's just a lot of pitfalls.
But also Damien is like an a one class name for a dog. I think that is my next one.
I want to talk about romance specifically, romance books, Murphy, you love them, right, So I have the right company for this conversation.
I could talk about it all, which is good because.
One thing we have learned on the show before is that romance booklovers are very passionate and they all get very upset if you do them wrong. But I am not intending to do anyone wrong. I went to a romance riding masterclass on the weekend.
I know it's quite sexy.
Am I going to be reading a book by you?
Soon?
We're going to get a manny novel from you.
I have not. Look, don't worry romance writers. I am not trying to muscle my way into your genre. But with the book I am writing at the minute, it does have like a love story in it, and it's really hard to write. So I was like, let's find out what the experts know about this shit. So I went to a masterclass that was run by this really successful Australian romance writer called Claire Connolly or.
She does a lot of the Billionaire.
Yes, it does right, And I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since, because this is like an entire world that I didn't really know about, and I just want to give you a few facts before we jump into why, because I know Murphy will be able
to tell us exactly why right. One of the reasons why I found this so fascinating is I haven't been able to stop thinking about what it tells us about women, and also about the books that we definitely do not read about in all the swanky literary pages of the broadsheet newspapers are selling their freaking socks off. Right. According to Nielsen Books Scan Australia, three million romance books valued at forty six and a half million sold in the
last year in twenty twenty four. And the thing is about that number is that does not include audio or ebooks, and so much romance is read on ebooks, So imagine what physical actually is, right, Imagine what that number actually is. It's a genre that is up by forty nine percent in Australia alone, forty nine percent, when the rest of the market.
Is quite hughuge.
So there is clearly a bottomless desire for these books. And I want to talk about the kind of books we're talking about. I'm talking not necessarily about romance c although that does fall into this, and obviously that is responsible for a lot of this big boost and all the attention that it's brought with it, and TikTok and all those kind of things are responsible for it too. But a traditional romance novel, to be classified as a romance novel has to have one thing h ea.
It has to have an h ea, Happily ever after? Right, Yeah?
And I'm obsessed with this information because it makes perfect sense when you think about it. I was watching Brene Brown this week talking to Fortune mag and she was talking about the climate, and I don't know this will be news to anyone. She said, people are not okay in general. People are emotionally disregulated, distrustful, and disconnected.
And so what do they want? They want something predictable is the wrong word, Something they can count on, something reliable, something that they know is going to work out, Murphy, Is that part of why you love romance?
Absolutely? And you can even say predictable because that is part of it, because a lot of these books are written to a formula where you kind of know that, even though you know the main male character and the main female character have fallen out in a fighting, you know they're going to get back together, and you know that they're going to end in a way that's going
to be very satisfying to you. And I think the thing about romance are in my particular special interest romanticy, it's about also exploring your own fantasies, whether that be romance sexual. There's so many different genres within the genre that you can find your niche and explore your own sexuality through that. You can, you know, live your life in a world where you know you might never do things in reality, but you can experience them through the
experiences of the characters in these books. And I may never recreate any of that in my real world unless we do find out eventually that men with pointy years and magic powers and wings really exist. But it allows my imagination to like fuel my libido whilst also giving me that escape from the real world and my real world because I do, you know, contribute to a news podcast and a women's health podcast, like a lot of
it's not great news. And so for me to sit down with a romance book and have that predictable storyline come out and yes, happy ending, but that doesn't necessarily mean of every book, because there are a series where the happy ending doesn't come until five books later. There is something about that predictability of a storyline that allows my brain to be calm and allow me to understand that even though there is tension throughout some of it,
that tension is going to go away eventually. So like, it is such a lovely experience to go through these tales with all these different characters and they come out the other side. And it has real world implications. There's been research into women reading romance books and it having positive impacts on the relationships they have with their partners in the real world. It's helped women with libido issues.
It's also an ability for women to take a moment for themselves when they're very heavily lifting the mental load. You know, it's absolutely predictable and comforting while also being sexy as hell, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I want to ask you, am right because one of the things I learned about when I was in my master class, my romance writing master class, is that there are established tropes, and in this instance, that is an insulting word. The tropes like enemies to lovers, friends to lovers, fake dating, force, proximity, and those niches people will read deeply in. So it might be that you love enemies to love us, so you'll read all enemies to lovers books. And then equally the settings are also very deep niche.
She's so you might just like cowboys or cowgirls, or you might figure skaters, yeah, exactly, or polyamorous you know, country threesomes, and you might They were saying, there's closed door sex scenes, which means the bedroom door closes before you see the sex, open door, which means the sex is explored. There's quite a big conservative romance streak now where there's no sex at all. There's just you know,
sort of polite handholding the stuff and sexual tension. Are you a cowboy girl or a billionaire girl?
Oh, that's such a good question.
I feel like I've only recently, like probably in the last year or so, got into romance, because when I started reading romance when I was younger, it was very different.
Like I think the first romance novels I read when I was about like ten or eleven with a Twilight series, and like they all were quite like similar, Like it was all about like a petite, fragile girl who flew away in the wind because she was so small and her boyfriend was like tall and muscle and he has abandonment issues since his dog died when he was twelve, but.
Only she could help him figure that out. And I was like, this is kind of weird. Kind of doing this would be weird.
And it's only when I got older and my sister I have to talk about her because she has a Bookstagram.
She reads about probably four books a week. She is obsessed. I'm so encouraged by how much all the young women I now read.
And it's all romance, and it's like she loves all romance books. And I feel like, especially with younger women, when they find a romance author they love, they'll read everything that author's written.
And these women are hard working and prolific. Claire Connolly was telling me she writes so many books a year. She just absolutely works out it like a queen.
Because the girls are demanding it. Emily Henry like, I've probably read all of her books and now.
She's having a big deal different movies for all of her books. It's like and it's similar, like there's like so many different tropes and it's like they churn through them, like they go through all of them and you know exactly what's going to happen and you can't wait to find out at the same time, and you're just so invested, and it's like what you said, if it's such a
good escapism. But at the same time, I do realize it does have an impact on my dating life, like as a single person, Like there have been times where I've literally just quit dating just because I'm so invested into these books, and I realized I'll.
Never get that.
Both romantic and otherwise.
Do you think the only other thing I want to ask, right is generally with culture, I don't like knowing the ending. Like if I can pick the ending at the beginning of a TV show, say, or a TV series, then I often like, I hate that.
I like the I like a surprise.
But the thing that interests me about just how popular happy endings are is that clearly that isn't true. Is it's just like we just don't want any more things to worry about, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I think it's nice when I read romance are usually able to read them in a few days, because even when there's like a tiff or a fight or that big like climax moment when nothing's going right, you never feel like you're in danger. You always feel safe throughout that whole book because you know they're going to come around.
And this is the thing too, is because these are tales written about women by women. Yeah, and you can absolutely tell them. There's a big section of TikTok which compares how men write women as supposed to how women right when.
Supple tender breasts, we don't see any of that now.
Her breasts were quivering in anticipation, like they're just it's being written by women is so different, and you're right them in that. It feels like a safe space, like it doesn't matter what's really happening in the storyline. You know that that author is taking care of you and will actually deliver to you what you need by the end of it. It's really beautifully written women.
That's what Rachel Johns, who's another romance writer who I was talking about that we ken, said, she said, I want people to know that it's not all heaving bosoms anymore. I'm throbbing members like there's a lot more variety than that. But one of the things I did as Claire Connolly, because as you said, she specializes in billionaires, and I was like, is Elon Musk really done that franchise, because
you know everybody fell for that fifty shades. Oh and he just happens for the US Man Alive as well as really hot.
Oh my god, that book.
When I was in high school, I remember we just had a PDF that would get passed around on a USB to all the girls what like.
Yeah, it was amazing out loud as.
We're going to put a link in the show notes to Claire Connelly, who's the writer, who's masterclass I did.
I've found it so eye opening. Tell us if you love romance, we want to know.
Can I leave on one last point because last time I was on I mentioned some recommendations for the romance book.
Give us some gateway people.
People gave me some really great recommendations. I've read the plated Prisoner series. Thank you to everyone who recommended that to me. That was fabulous. I also want to do a shout out to Shield of Sparrows, which is a gorgeous book by Devney Perry. I only have the review copy of This is not the actual cover of Diabound, but this is one of the best books I've read in the longest time. Is by Stable Sorenson and just
a heads up to for Kellie Hart fans. The sequel to Quicksilver is out next month and we're all gagginged ot these all romanticy category?
Is that what we call it?
Yes? So it is like strong female characters with super hot boys, and there's often like wolves or magic or in this case dragons for Wings of Blood, which is what I'm currently reading. And inside of that, and this is another thing I think we haven't taken into account is all the merch that now comes with romantic books because I have a fourth Wing book.
Mok, I'm so jealous. Calm down, I'm down, my friend.
After the break, we are sharing our very best recommendations, including something Claire I feel like will make you feel so much better about your dog.
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Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
This is my best recommendation.
It is a recommendations time. Holly, do you want to take it.
Away, I do.
I know that Claire is going to be recommending a couple of podcasts, so and I was going to recommend one and I'm not now, but I've just got to put in one quick mention, okay, for one of my gen X queen's Jennifer Aniston.
She's on Dax Shepherd's Armchair Expert. This week. I saw some clips of hers.
The thing that's very exciting for Anniston stands about this is she's never done a long form I've never seen her do it interviews. It's just not what she does right. And obviously I've listened to it all and obviously it's great. She's very warm and funny. There's no like bombshells. It's not like she's like so one day Brad Pitt came home and it's not like that, damn it, because she's kind of in a safe space, I guess with her
mate Dax and Monica. But anyway, I loved it. I just loved hanging out with her for an hour and she did. There were a couple of really interesting things. She talked about why she'd never adopted a kid. That was really interesting. Quick just for any gen X is out there who do love Deaniston getting to hear her talk. I hope she's gonna feel like she can do that a bit more. But my actual one is my best friend in the world at the moment. Conceala a particular concealer.
Jesse's been doing some makeup recos lately and I have recommended before a really good affordable concealer by this brand called Revolution. I can't find it anywhere, and I don't think it's because of my recommendation, but I think it's all that. I think it's because Lee Campbell recommended it, right, So anytime I walk into a price line, I go and look for it, and I can't find it.
So I've had to replace it.
As like Lauders know, I don't mind a bit of a spenny beauty thing sometimes it's a little treat, but I don't like spending lots of money on Consila, and my experience tells me that often the more expensive ones don't work as well.
Like I've got to be really careful with Consala.
Well, I don't have to be careful. That's an overstatement. Like a lot of concealers get cakey. The ones with really good coverage.
I get that as well.
That's why I'm so scared of Kinceala.
So I always go for the Serumi almost runny ones, kind of like foundation. Yeah, but some of them are too runny, like Trinny's one is too running. I used to use that, but it's two Running's.
Not good anyway.
So let me just tell someone because this is not revolutionary, but it is an affordable chemist one that is rocking my world at the minute, which is just the Laurel True Match Radiant Serum Conceala.
I one hundred percent agree with that.
It's so good and they have so many shades, and right now it's fifteen bucks. It's fifteen bloody bucks in price line. I've been really tired lately. I haven't been sleeping great. I'm sure it's something hormonal blah blah blah. So i wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh my god, especially when we're filming, I'm like, oh.
My god, Cancela.
And it's just the right amount of runny for me, Like it doesn't settle in my lines, but it gives good coverage. It's glowy, and it's you can find it, and it's cheap.
It lasts all day. I actually have two.
I have one for my under eyes because my under eyes I need a lighter shade because I quite dark. Then I have one that's actually my skin color and I use it sometimes as foundation for my blemishes.
Comes the Trae so.
Lorel truemach Radian serum Conceala It kicks, Claire.
What do you have today?
As Holly mentioned, I've got a couple of podcasts and I'm going to be a slightly indulgent one today because they're both podcasts that I make. Oh so go on give yourself some flowers, Clam Murphy, I am going to thank you, Miley. I am currently filling in on True Crime Conversations because our regular host Jimmy Bath went off and had a baby, so her Maternity Live I've been covering for the past few months and we have got a couple of really cracky interviews coming up if you
love true crime. Yesterday we dropped an episode with Harold Scheckter and he is the absolute foremost expert in ed Gean and if you've been watching Ryan Murphy's Monster have the third series on ed Gan. He has a lot of things.
To say, so it's a serial killer guy.
Yeah, he's not a serial killer.
No, No, your guest isn't. But the monster's Ed Gean. No, ed Dean is awesome.
He was the largs serial killer. So that is part of the problem that Harold Scheckter has with Ryan Murphy's depiction of Ed Green, because he claims quite a high percentage of that story is untrue, which is wild. The other one coming up next week is one that I feel like I've prepared my entire life to do. I'm sitting down with Kathleen Folbick.
Oh my god, wow, I would love to hear that.
I'm so honored that she has agreed to come on through Crime Conversations to talk about her experience. If you're unaware of Kathleen's story, she lost four children over the early to late nineties, and she was jailed because she was found guilty of their murder. And it turns out that there was a DNA issue that could have meant there was a very reasonable explanation for the deaths of
those four babies. So she is now free. She's going to be joining me with her friend Tracy, who's been literally at her side this entire time, and so I'm excited. That's coming next week, so two episodes.
Edgaine.
If you're watching Monsters that's already live, go check it out. And next week. Kathleen Folbig on True Crime Conversations. Thank you. That is me just advertising myself.
How exciting. Okay, my recommendation.
I'm actually so excited to have this recommendation because it lines up perfectly with your dog dilemma.
Okay. It is a substack post.
It's written by an alias named Father Karen or Father Kareen. She's an anonymous writer and this post is titled an Open Letter to My dog, who, if I'm being honest, low key kind of sucks. It is one of the funniest things I've read in a really, really long time, and as writers, you know, it's really hard to be funny in writing funny. I was reading this while I was walking to work and I was cackling on the sidewalk the city.
People thought I was insane. It is so so funny.
It's basically, she talks about being this young girl and she adopts a dog. She lives in New York City. She adopts a dog. It has all of this past trauma and it's actually a really really hard dog to look after. And the letter is to her dog and saying how much she loves her dog deeply, but also going into all of these things that the dog does in its life. I want to read this little snippet out. It says, one day, while paying my dog walking bill online,
I saw a note section on your profile. I clicked on it and it said be careful, we'll confront large men, which is how I found out you were a radical feminist.
It is so exiity she have a radical feminist. Oh my god.
I think you'd really enjoy it. It's really really funny. We'll put a link to it in our show notes.
I love that it reminds me of rescue shelters who like truthfully advertise some of the dogs and they'll be like, this guy's just an asshole. He will chew everything you own and we'll probably run away, but like, please adopt him. That's so fun.
Hold bless a massive thank you out loud As for being with us through our Friday show and all week, and of course to you Clemurphy who've been filling in for Jesse Stevens all week and doing a bloody stellar job.
Thank you thank you for having me. It's always fun to step in and have a weed chat with you guys.
Friends, do not forget. You can also watch us on YouTube.
Yeah, so you can see clip pull out all of the books that she had. I definitely want to see that out loud. As one more thing, I have a big question for you. Do you hold a grudge? And if you do, when should you let it go? We had a conversation on the subscriber episode yesterday about arguably the Queen of grudges, Taylor Swift, and discovering that one of us loves to hold a grudge while another thinks
that holding one can actually teach us something. We're going to pop a link in the show notes so you can listen. Mon's Amelia and Stacey are back in your ears tomorrow with a new episode of Parenting Out Loud. The guy who created Adolescents has an idea for how dads can connect to their sons, but one of the hosts is not a fan. They also discuss a kids party photo that has everyone up in arms and whether we should just say no to some traditions.
Did someone say elf.
Find it in its own feed by searching Parenting out loud and tap follow so you don't miss an episode. A link, as always, will be in the show notes. Claire and m thank our team.
A big thank you to our full team, our group executive producer Rute Divine and our executive producer Sasha Tanic.
Our senior audio producer is the gorgeous Lea Porges, who does wear a good power suit. You should check her out. Video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producers are Coco and Tessa. Bye Bye bye.
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