You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the twenty eighth of August. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm mea Friedman.
I'm Jesse Stephens.
An on today's show, two very famous women have closed their clothing businesses this week? Are we seeing the end of the celebrity side hustle? And there are tears in the Mommamea office about the divorce of a celebrity that I've literally never heard of. Jesse is bringing us all the gossip about the benefit scale split of someone called Molly May. I had to check.
Ons also, are dancing sexy centers enough to make you walk out of a work meeting.
Some media business employees just found their limit. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Women's voices and faces are forbidden to be heard or shown outside the home in Afghanistan, following new virtue laws introduced by the Taliban three years ago. The militant group retook control of the country and as one woman from Kabul said, day by day they are trying to erase women from society.
This news honestly took my breath away. It's unimaginable.
And the penalties for if you were to show your face or you were to use your voice, and this includes if you are inside your home and you are talking or you are singing and it can be heard outside your home, there are penalties for that. This is from the Justice Ministry. The penalties include advice, warnings of divine punishment, verbal threats, confiscation of property, detention for one hour to three days in public jails, and any other punishment deemed appropriate.
That is so sinister.
I remember when the Taliban took back control of Afghanistan and the world was like, oh no, and they were like no, guys, don't worry. Were actually fine, like women are going to be fine. And then over the last few years since that happened, they've systematically raised women from public life, preventing women from going to university, preventing them from going to school, preventing them from leaving their house unaccompanied. Now face voice. Also, you're not allowed to have photographs of.
A living thing, of a living person, So if you know we think about our homes, or if you've got a loved one or a child or a mother or anything that's just maybe on the other side of the country or living overseas, then that's punishable to have a photograph in your home.
I just find this so moving. Over the past three years, one of the things that's happened is that female journalists in Afghanistan have slowly had to adjust and Titan and adjustin Titan. So when the Taliban took over, there were quite a few female news anchors journalists on Afghan television and they had to tighten their hit ups so that
absolutely no hair was visible. Then the laws changed again and they had to wear face masks while they were delivering the news, and some of the media organizations have insisted on keeping like they really want to keep these women on screen, so they've been doing this. Okay, a mask is fine now because their voices aren't allowed to
be heard. Live feeds of press conferences where women are asking questions get cut in the middle of broadcast because their voices are allowed to be heard, so it's literally pushing them off. The bravery of those women and also the men who are working around them, who are trying to protect them and keep them on screens is just I just salute them. It's just so sad.
And what you're saying about media the photographs is really important too, because if you're trying to report from inside Afghanistan about what's happening and about the lives of women, you can't if you can't publish a photograph, which is another way in which what's happening inside Afghanistan is being rendered invisible.
We have more information about this devastating story on Muma Maya.
There's a link in the show notes.
Until this week. If you're in New York City and you wanted to spot Sarah Jessica park in the wild, your best bet was to head to a shoe shop on the corner of Bleeker and Perry Street, just around the corner from where Carrie Bradshaw's very famous apartment is.
Really because I've been to that apartment two times.
There you go. She used to literally work in the SJP by Sarah Jessica Parker shop some days, saying that staying close to her customer, watching them hold and feel and try on her shoes, was the key to keeping the designs relevant to the women who wanted a little bit of carry magic on their feet. They had shoes like bridleheels that had Hello Lover stamped on their toes
and things like that. But no more, because this week SJP quietly announced a fashion press that after nine years, the shoe brand was closing, and there's currently an everything must Go sale on their website to shift the last of the stock. Another high profile woman much closer to home, is also shuddering her business this week. Constance Hall is
a name I'm sure you're all very familiar with. This week, she announced on Facebook and Instagram, where she has million of followers, that Queen the Label, her online clothing business that specialized in floaty boho fashion and always donated a portion of the profit to charity, was closing down. The conflict she was feeling about this was evident in the
announcement she posted with trademark honesty. She said, I have dreaded telling you guys this because I've tried everything to avoid it, and I'm still losing my breath with anxious butterflies swirling in my stomach every second. I have put Queen the Label into voluntary administration after a week long panic attack with confusion over bookwork that I simply do not understand. I was told that nobody should have to live with the stress that this company puts on me
in my life, and they were right. I've been stressed out for seven years, seven years of not giving my kids the time they deserve, seven years of not enjoying my life while the impending doom of not having made enough money hung over me. And it stops now now. To be clear, these women have a lot of other
things going on right. Hall is a content creator. She still has another business called The Lover's Heart Club where she set like Art and Home was SJP of course different scale altogether, still has a wine label a fragrance, and of course she's an actress who's filming season three
of them just like that at the moment. But mea as our out loud business correspondent, is this just the economy and these are high profile examples of something that's happening everywhere on very different scales, or is it symptomatic of the end of the celebrity side hustle.
I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, the economy is incredibly hard, retail is incredibly hard, and the apparel is among the hardest. I mean, all you have to do is search for genes or pretty much anything, any item of clothing, shoes, or accessories, and you'll probably be served a bunch of ads from like Temu, where you can buy them for like six dollars.
The little guys.
Are finding it increasingly tough because when you're an enormous company who manufactures off sor you can do it quite cheaply, and you can sell it quite cheaply for a decent markup.
The way I understand it is that the bottom line of the big businesses is getting bigger and bigger, whereas the small businesses are crumbling as a result. So even you know, yeah, there's the example of the big like next day delivery all that kind of stuff.
And so if Zara or Tema Orchine making a T shirt, they'll put in an order for a million units, maybe two million units. If Constance Hall is making a T shirt, she'll put in an order for five hundred units. So you can imagine the cost of two million units is maybe forty cents a unit, and the cost of ordering five hundred is probably four dollars or ten dollars a unit.
So it's really tough. And I think what's been interesting about the Internet and social media in particularly, it's allowed women to not just sell other people's products because women have always done that, famous women, but to go direct to consumer and sell their own.
You know, it's not all doom and gloom.
I mean you just have to look at business women in Australia like Zoe Foster Blake, who has built a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars which she then sold and then brought back again at a fraction of the price. So it's not that it is impossible. And we've seen Celeste Barbara just start her beauty line, so there's lots of women who are still doing it, famous women who are still doing it. But it is really hard to compete.
Because there's someone who I'm not a business person. I don't claim to understand the ins and outs, and in fact, I take such pride in knowing I will never have a product. It's sort of like knowing I'll never run a marathon. It's like a very relieving.
But I thought I'd never work for myself. I never thought I would be self employed.
I just think never. It looks like the hardest thing in the world, but it is.
I mean, it's the hardest thing in the world, but it's hard.
Part of the marketing of having a brand is to promote almost like a scarcity mindset and to go, it's flying off the shelves, get it now, we're having a last sale. Like part of marketing is to project this image that your business is thriving, which I imagine compounds the pain of most business owners who feel as though they're not thriving.
Constance always did that really, really well, which is why it was a big surprise even to me to read that it was closing, because she's an outstanding marketer, and she said in that post, so much of the investment of building this label was from the proceeds of her book, because she again didn't go with a publisher, took a risk ten years ago and self published a memoir and made a fortune, a fortune like several million.
Dollars on precedent and unprecedented.
It was like change the game in publishing, and no one's been able to replicate that, including her. But no one's been able to replicate that, even other big name authors or go with big companies. So being really good at marketing is different to being really good at business, and if you don't have the right partners. I know a lot of things, but if I hadn't been a co founder of Muma Mia with my husband Jason, who was CEO, there's no way I could have done this.
There's no way or could continue to do this. I want to ask if there's a vibe shift, right. I mean, there are obviously very specific reasons for these people that we're talking about now for their businesses to work or not work, or whether or not they've just run their course. Whether you know sjp's Shoes was always going to have a ceiling.
Really the other.
Thing whole is social media and the algorithm, because it used to be SJP and Constance have millions of followers, right, and if you can go direct to them on social media and sell something, you don't need to spend money on advertising. You don't need to, you know, take out ads on TV or in Mama Mia. You can go direct. But as soon as you're reliant on someone else and an algorithm to deliver your customers to you so that they see what you're putting out there, it's not a reliable business model.
When I say I wonder if there's been a vibe shift. I wonder if it's the means of operation have changed, because, as you say, social media has changed, but also there was a moment, and I think we're still in this moment. To be fair, that anyone with a big following or a big fame is very much encouraged now to own
things like business. Didn't used to be cool twenty years ago if you were an artist or a creative, saying that you had a business mind or that you were interested in bottom lines and spreadsheets was very uncool, right, But we live in a time now where billionaires are pinups and every celebrity has a liquor brand, a skincare line. It's kind of cool to know a lot about business. But I wonder if there's a shift because we've realized the reality of just because you do have lots of followers,
it doesn't guarantee success. And as what Constance expressed there, as I understand it because obviously when you were very involved in Ladies startup and we were always listening to female founders, it is incredibly stressful. When she was explaining that about staying awake at night, stressing about employees, bottom lines, payments, Do I have enough money? That's very common, right, That's that's what business women.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is it just not bloody worth it for a lot of people.
I think there's a lot of different reasons why people start businesses, you know, and it's not always just about money. I mean, obviously everyone has to make their own decisions about what they're willing to put up with, you know, and what's the return on investment in their life that
makes it worth it to continue or not. But a lot of women, particularly women with side hustles, women with small businesses, start them for reasons around identity, around boredom, around wanting something to do that's not just being at home with kids, or being at home being a care for someone, or being at home being unwell.
Or more flexible work.
Yeah. I remember one woman I interviewed who had had a terrible car accident and became a wheelchair user, and she started a business like knitting. She lived on farm, bulls blankets and scars and stuff, and that was never going to set the world on fire. But that's not why she started it. It made enough to pay for itself, and she says that it saved her because it gave her purpose and I used to those stories all the time from we Yes.
But then there's this other thing going on, right, which is that if you have a following, and we've talked about this, you don't necessarily make money from having two hundred thousand followers on Instagram, right, No, you don't. It's about monetizing a following. So I heard this said recently. You'll remember the other week we're talking about the person who coined the word demure, and she was talking about it, and suddenly her words are the most famous words in
the world. I think it's like she must be so rich, yes, and I think she made a little bit of money just from views or something. But I heard people say she needs a product, she needs a product right now so that she can sell it, so that she can capitalize on it. I don't think that there is a clear recipe necessarily for making sure that's a product people actually want to buy, or making sure that she would be around the right people to create and also monetize instantly.
It doesn't happen instantly. And the nature of fame and virality now is that the person who was famous story weeks ago is invisible today. But I'm not sure that a vibe shift is totally what's happening. I was listening to an interview with one of the guys from The Inspired Unemployed this week, Jack Steele. They made better beer.
That is the fastest growing beer in Australian history. And I would say, just looking at those two guys, because they were making TikTok videos and they've got into lots of different projects from the outside, I go, whoever you're working with is giving you fantastic advice.
Like, clearly the beer was a great thing.
It was a good match.
It was a really good match.
They knew who their audience was, so there's still clearly potential.
Back to the woman who had the very demure moment, Jules Lebron, she had two choices very quickly. One is to make her own products, which you can't do instantly. Well, you can with like a drop shit model, like you can get t shirts sort of printed in China or something and quickly get them shipped.
You could do that.
The other is to quickly take all the brand deals so everybody would be coming to her and its influencer work. So it's saying, okay, I've probably got two months to make good coin, I need to fish weather, fish are and do that as opposed to the longer lead and sell us.
Barber's a great example of that.
I mean, she's been famous for a really long time now, but she was the face of ModelCo and someone else's makeup, and she obviously decided, well, hang on, I know that I can move make up for them. Why aren't I doing this for myself? And so that's what she's doing now with a business partner. But it's very different because when you work for someone else, they have the infrastructure.
When you work for yourself, suddenly you've got to be out there selling all the time, and not everybody's comfortable with doing that. Like, one thing you can say about Constance is that she knows how to sell things, and she was out there constantly working it, and yet that still wasn't enough.
The most successful celebrity brands you can think of eventually transcend the celebrity. Right, So sample of the better beer that might be going really well right now, but in ten years, when the inspired unemployed have been I mean they'll be fine. I don't mean I'm worried about them, but like there'll be a new inspired on employed there'll be a new cool young guys who all the young
people want to emulate better. Beer will only remain successful if it's bloody great and it's like solidified itself separate to them. It's kind of like fenty beauty or you know there are celebrity brands you can think of that. Yes, the celebrity helped get that out there, but now it's every time I think of fenty beauty and I see it, I don't immediately go Rhianna. I mean, I know this is a different scale.
I don't know, I know, you know what I mean.
It's like the thing with Sjp's shoes, for example. And I'm not a business expert, but this is my vibe is there was always going to be a ceiling on how long people were obsessed with one and carry Bradshaw's heels, do you know what I mean?
Everyone went to her with opportunities to either endorse or do a collab with a big brand, a big existing shoe brand, including like a Minola blank and then cheaper ones, but the price point for celebrity like Jessica Simpson, for example, who doesn't release music anymore, but she's a billionaire because she sells like dresses and shoes and sheets, and she's an entire lifestyle brand, and so she could have gone that way, but she wanted to go do her own thing,
and she wanted it to be a certain quality. So the price point of these shoes were like five hundred dollars, and anyone that's got five hundred dollars to spend on shoes SJP is not She's a person who's known for having great shoes, but it's not like a Manolo Blanik or a Christian Liverton or.
A Gucci or whatever.
So I think there was that disconnect because people want to be adjacent to famous people. But that's why celebrities have fragrances, because you can buy a little bit of SJP for thirty bucks at Chemist Warehouse, you.
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I've been thinking about this all day ever since the Molly and Tommy breakup was announced and I just don't think that people understand the severity of how this is going to impact society. Think about it. Molly May has created a generation of girlies who like a slip back bone, a free at five hundred. They've got a new lip on and the most flawless, faked hand that you will
ever see in your life. Every single one of them right now is sitting there thinking if it could happen to them, it could happen to me.
When news reached the Mum Mayor office last week that a woman named Molly May Haig and a man named Tommy Fury was separating, there were literal tears.
There were tears. Holly, don't understand.
The words coming out of her mouth? Do you understand them?
The statement this is our Princess Diana and Prince Charles moment was atted. Team felt blindsided and emotionally unequipped to deal with the news that on August fourteen, and otherwise normal quiet Wednesday, Molly May and Tommy were over.
See these people?
Before I go any further, Holly and Maa, do you have any questions regarding what.
I just heard? All of the questions because I've seen this story around obviously, I work My May, and I've seen it on site. I haven't clicked on it because I'm like, I don't know who they are. So I looked at the picture. I was like, surely I'll just recognize their faces. No.
Still, no, their English, Holly. I think that they might be friends with your parents because they live in Greater Manchester. Oh my goodness, so your parents. I bet they're talking about it all over this. Oh your mom's going to go Did you know Molly May and Toyo?
That sounds embarrassing though I don't know what's happening yet.
Okay, So Molly May Haig was on season five of Love Island obviously right, and she also had like a YouTube channel and everyone loves her just for she.
An influencer who went on Love Island. Or was she went on Love Island and became an influence.
She reminded me her Love works. I'm going back to base.
She was an influencer who went on Love Island. It is an island full of love where there are just a bunch of people who like have mad sex together. And her and Tommy were runner UNPD.
Is that the whole plot?
Yeah? And they're hot and they walk around in bikinis.
Run around bad So who wins the person who has the sex the most and doesn't get a UTR?
No, no, no, the couple that's the most couple. They were the second most couple, the second most people. And so this was twenty nineteen. So this was five years ago, which is fifty years ago in reality. Okay, time, Yeah, you're right they're part of the establishment. Yeah, they're brad Nanch. Since then they've got married. They have a daughter. Her name is Bambi. She's about one and a half.
No, all right, I quite like.
Now you two are thinking, why should I care?
A lot of nouns.
There's a lot of proper nouns, none of which I can recall.
Friends, if we were sitting at dinner and I said to you, friends of mine just broke up and there's something fishy going on, would you or would you not?
Lean in? Of course you'd lean in. Okay, Well that's what we're gonna do.
First of all, I'd express disapproval because it's my brand. I'd be like, are we really gossiping about this? Jesse? And then I would put down my wife class and I'd go, tell.
Me, so, what have they done.
Do they have jobs like or they just famous people?
Okay, Tommy Fury in a weird way is related to a very famous boxer or something.
Oh yeah yeah, Tyson Fury. Yes, it's really famous.
I know that is.
Yeah.
Okay, so that's and then there was like a Netflix show about blah blah blast the British people.
Are we so?
Holly's family friend Molly May post an Instagram story to her eight point two million followers eight eight point two Okay. It says, never in a million years did I think I'd have to write this after five years of being together. I never imagined our story would end, especially not this way.
What does that tell you? What's if?
But also can I just put my hand up?
So dirty, dirty cheetah?
I love it, of course, But also did anyone really think she was never going to have to write that? They met on a reality show five years ago, quickly got married and had a baby.
Don't think you understand her love work?
Didn't we all think she was going to come to a day when she was going to write this?
They were Charles and Diana, right, they were, I've been together four five years?
What about that?
Are you're not understanding five years pre covid. Oh my god, now everyone's yelling Molly, tell us what happened.
Well.
She then went on, she said our priority was her daughter. That's all lovely, and then she said that she will return to social media when it feels right.
That was today she.
Did, and how many an hour later and she said, thank you for your support. Have you too been supporting? Apparently we've been very supportive. All right, do we want to know what happened? Do we want to know what happened?
All right?
Well, the Sun knows what happened, so sit tight the Sun.
Oh sorry, I thought you meant her son. I was confused.
Guess the Sun is a tabloid newspaper and only ever tells the truth. Tommy, he was on holiday in North Macedonia and he was seen kissing a blonde woman in front of hundreds of people in a nightclub. Tommy just days before Mollie may announce very smart as he's not very smart. A nightclub girl was interviewed and said that Tommy didn't even seem to care that he was kissing
a girl in front of everyone. And Tommy's security guard went up to people and was deleting pictures and videos off their phone, going you can't film Tommy cheating on his wife.
It seems like an imperfect pr strategy for everybody. Give me your phone. I need your phone. You over there, give me your phone, and it's just one security guard trying to do all the work.
Allegedly, he was then seen speaking to the same girl the following evening.
You are the sun. What are you try and do next?
Come on, hollod, We've trying to find the girl.
We've found the girl, haven't we. We found her. She's Danish.
She probably wasn't very hard to find.
She wasn't. She just posted on her stories.
She said, I've had to delete all my posts due to the hate and nasty comments.
She's also taking a break from social media.
She had to delete her things. As stated in the news story, I gave. I didn't do anything with Tommy Fury. I didn't even know who he was. We only shared a kiss. Nothing else happened. I wouldn't kissed himfu you is with Molly May Now back to the timeline, right, because he goes and cheats with this Danish This is all allegedly h but he's gone over there he's kissed her. Then he gets on a flight home to Manchester, right, and the flight's delayed. Always important, this important information. And
it lands at two forty five pm. Right by three point fifty two pm, Molly May has announced their split to her Instagram followers. This suggests to me a video photo was sent to Molly May that quickly ended their relationship in what's that? Just over an hour? Just over an hour since he landed.
It depends how far from the airport they.
Leave, Yes, exactly right.
Would you end a relationship and post about it in an hour after receiving a photo?
It's a great way.
No, okay, But I don't live in Molly May's world. I would if this was a pattern of behavior. Yeah, right, for sure, because I've seen Tommy. I've seen his face, and I just have a vibe.
This is what I mean about everybody pretending they're surprised, Like, why would we be surprised? Do we really think that Tommy and Molly, two very good looking humans who found love on reality TV, were going to be monogamously together forever and ever and ever till they die?
It's Laura Burne and Maddie Jay announced that they broke up tomorrow different, Oh, so upset. I'd be so upset because what it is is that been through a lot. Molly May has eight point two million girlfriends, right, so you know how like May Or if you got cheated on tomorrow, Holly and I would be giving Jason dirties. Right, we wouldn't be very friendly with him in the lift, I'll tell you that that's true.
So now he's in a world of pain.
Tommy took a little Bambi out for ice creamy the all day had to have security because people are just going you dirty, dirty dog. Imagine how brazen you have to be.
Do you know what was interesting because when this happened, I was about to say to us, to Holly and I at the point when our friend Jennifer Aniston got cheated on by Brad Pitt, no one turned on Brad Pitt, like, not one person everyone because they all.
Tend to know Jelina.
Yeah, no one turned on Brad Pitt.
So this might be progress. If Tommy Fiury is being harassed and beaten up in the street by angry ladies who were throwing their shoes at him with bamby like, well, no, of course, and I'm joking. Of course it's not okay then harass anyone in the street. But I'm just saying, like, culturally, at least they haven't all gone round to Danish lady's house and they're like painting evil slogans on her. I mean maybe they are.
So what happens now to Molly May? She's back on social She's back on social. Who she's dating A Kennedy, No, she's.
Not dating anyone yet because she's spending time with Bambi because she is a mother. And Tommy also he's denying that he cheated. But what I say to Tommy is the photos a giller leak, probably and the Danish woman has said that you cheated, so I think you definitely did cheat. I think he was a dirty dog. I think that Molly May good on her for finally ending this.
I think that will be very good for her. But I also think that we're so invested because they have an eighteen month old and not only did he go to North Macedonia clubbing at two am, but he cheated on her in public. The sh oh, I'm so angry at him. I reckon Holly's Mom's gonna when he walks past Holly's mum on the street.
She's going to tut at him.
Because your mums drop over Orchestral I think maybe she should write Yeah, if you want to know more about Molly May and frankly, who doesn't come on. I've got a lot of questions remaining.
Yeah.
There is a link in the show notes to the extensive coverage we've offered on my man.
My mom is providing i''s life blogging from Manchester doing a live cross.
To all his parents. Every Tuesday and Thursday.
We drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out Loud Just for Mum and Me A subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone who has already subscribed. Last Friday, the Seven Networks parent companies Seven West Media held a staff meeting in Perth
to introduce some new senior stuff. They wanted everyone to get to know them, including their new male editor in chief of the West Australian newspaper and a new female editor, the first one in the paper's history, as well as the first LGBT appointment. A man who is the head of the Sunday Times. I mean, I was a bit confused when I read that, because presumably it's not the first LGBT appointment to management, but perhaps it's the first person who's public about it.
Doesn't if it is, is that something.
To be proud of?
My gods?
And like this is the first?
I guess what they're trying to say. The Seven Network, as we know, has been under a lot of fire lately for sexism and such things, and maybe they're trying to say it's a new chapter.
We also are inclusive.
We're woke, We're welcoming well done to everyone with a new job. The company was feeling celebratory, and why wouldn't you be. But after welcoming the newbies, discussion turned to the company's annual upfront's presentation to advertisers. Out louders might be familiar with upfronts. They're the torturous thing that media companies have to go through every year, where you go and basically say, here, all the good things we've.
Got coming up with lots of times, haven't we we have?
Anyway, So they talked about what shows they'll be announcing, and one of those shows is Perth's Christmas pageant, which is apparently an institution.
I can't believe I've never watched it.
And that's when things took a turn. All I Want for Christmas by Mariah Carey started playing.
That wasn't the.
Bad part, obviously, because who doesn't love that song for bagger and yet, according to the Australian Financial Review, the seven deputy news director was talking about the Christmas pageant and out came a group of female dancers dressed in well they said, not much at all, but I would say from having seen the video which was leaked and looking at the photos, it seemed like sort of i'm gonna say, skimpy red dresses, like red dresses, and they were doing they were sexy. It was a bit of
a sexy Santa situation. They were doing like high kicks, a bit of a DCC vibe, a bit of a DCC vibe. But I was saying they probably were more covered. There was no midroof anyway. Pictures of the event pinned around Perth media circles, with one likening them to slutty elves, which I think is very udgy, judgy and unreasonable and also slight shaming of elves, but also those women who were al seriousness of professional dancers they dance at the pageant.
That seems harsh. Another it was like the girls dancing around bill Ny in love. Actually yeah, that scene, and some compared it to the pageants scene from Mean Girls. But the point is that some female employees and potentially some male ones were dumb struck and horrified at what they were sitting through and some walked out in disgust. Now, entertainers during media parties are pretty common. A Christmas party
might have some dances. I've been at a media conference where there were like Brazilian dancers, which I'll be honest, was a bit weird. They were kind of wearing nothing and they were sort of shaking bits and it was a work event. It for a little bit strange. A seven spokesperson said that it was for the pageant, you know, so what's wrong with it? But others have said, you know, it's midday, it's a work day, and what's so sexy about Christmas? Some have said, Jesse, you offended. Would you
have been offended? Would you have walked out?
I probably wouldn't have walked out, but just because I don't like confrontation and I don't like kind of spotlight, but I totally support. When I saw that footage, I had a few thoughts all at once. I kind of went, oh, well, they were consensually dancing and it was to promote something. And then I went and watched the footage and I thought, oh, no, I get it.
I get it.
If I am a woman working for Channel seven in my business suit at the front and I could see the women in particular, and it is eleven fifteen, it is not even midday, and these women come out and dance in their sexy Santa outfits, the messaging about what we value about women is very confused, and also it encapsulates this paradox of the modern moment, where we're going, look our first female editor, Look the sexy Santas doing sexy dance.
I think it.
Makes you so mad to play Devil's advocate. Isn't it just the spectrum of options that are available for women?
I don't think so, because it's meant to be a work event, and it also makes me feel as a woman. It can make me feel very visible and oggl dat if that's the job is We're meant to be looking at these women's bodies and these women dancing and everything. I don't think we can tell this story without just adding in the context of Channel seven and the last
few months. Obviously there was an ABC four corners investigation done about claims of sexism and sexual assault, and there has also been the Bruce Laman claims about Channel seven paying for sex workers. So within that context this looks bad.
Imagine the meeting where they.
Decided, having worked in the media business, like several media businesses, just imagine where they were going. So we're getting everyone together, We're going to introduce everybody.
It's going to be great.
And then someone's like, you know, we always have the Christmas pageant dancers at that and there would have been a one woman in that meeting going like, I don't think that's a very good idea, and there's right.
Fun and then the.
Meeting probably one woman, the woman who is the new editor.
And the man in the definitely said you can't even have women in sexy Sanna outfits dancing in August.
Having organized those meetings and like, you know, we've got our all hands at me coming up tomorrow, and you're always like, okay, we've got to do this, and we've got to do that. How can we make it a bit more fun, How can we do something that's just to be fun.
I know everyone loves Christmas.
This is one of those meetings that should have been an email. They should have just sent.
Out a phono Santa Me to all the women employees and just said new business uniform at seven Media.
Anyway, because at first I was like, wow, would I have walked out? I probably would not have walked out. I actually read a lot of quotes from anonymous employees who they weren't outraged like they're being presented like they were outraged. They weren't outraged. They were just eye rolly, and they were saying. One anonymous woman said, it's the contrast four men talking about business, then four women come in, doled up and scantily clad. What is the role of
women at this company? That's the right, That's the thing, because you know, I understand that you can I roll about the outrage here like, oh, calm down, everybody, it's a Christmas pageant.
We always have sexy senters.
They cheer everybody up.
The news cycles very rough. We all you know what it's just immediately says this is what we think of women.
I've been in a couple of those situations where it's been I've felt so offended is not the right word, but I think appalled is probably the right word. The one that I think about all the time is about eight years ago I was invited to be a keynote speaker at another institutional event. It's like a big lunch that they have up in Brisbane for like media agencies and advertising agencies.
There would have been about.
A thousand people there and the MC was like a guy from like a I want to say, like a radio station. He's quite well known. I can't remember what his name he's but everybody in the room knew who was and he was, you know, introducing all this because and the room was packed. It was probably equally male and female professionals. It was lunchtime on a weekday. And then he said, Okay, all the women in the room,
I want it all stand up. And I just got that sense that something was up and I didn't stand up, but a lot of women did.
Most women stood up because you.
Don't want to be you know, you don't want to be that person. And then he goes, now, all the blokes, I just want you to lean back a bit and check out the lovely view of all. And I was sitting there, and again there was like a bit of a groan, but not like what you would think. This is probably just pre me too. I would like to think it wouldn't happen today. And I was sitting there, and I wanted to get up and walk out, but I thought, I'm being paid to be to give a
keynote speech. If I walk out, I make this whole thing about me. It then becomes about me, and it also puts the mental load and the reputational load of that whole story becoming about me.
I also can't I sat there. Yeah, I also can't make a decision in the moment. I overthink things. So I've been in exactly the same situation as in a work situation, where I've felt like something sexist has been said or an environment is making me uncomfortable, and the thought has crossed my mind. If I were a different person, maybe, if I were a braver person, I would stand up and leave, and I think that would say everything I need to say. But instead I have just sat there.
And it's because I can't make up my mind.
About what's the most Because.
If I left, the cost would be on me.
But also in that instance, when you just told that story, my immediate mind goes to, first of all, I'm like, no, wonder women are so fucking angry like that one my first thought. But my second thought was what's the plausible deniability of that guy? And you could go, well, maybe he could argue I wanted to make the point that we employ all these women, and isn't it lovely to
see all these women there? Like yeah, you know immediately that the defense like if you'd have then stood up and made your speech and said, all the blokes stand up, and what a lot of dickheads they are in this room. No, it's like check out their packages. But if you'd have done that, then it would have been what an overreaction? Like I just meant, aren't these women great?
No?
No, he implicitly said.
It wasn't like, look at all the beautiful women, It was look at their ass.
I reckon that our resistance to walking out is that we don't want to be seen as like a buzzkill or someone who like, isn't fun. The way that it's it's framed, and in my situation too, is that we're all just having a bit of fun.
That wasn't the mood. I mean, it was the mood from that guy. There was an understanding that that was shit, but it was also like, oh, that's just Jacko exactly, let's move on. So I didn't want to pull focus because I didn't want to then make it all about me. So instead I sat there and seethed and felt like I was selling out women, like I was selling out myself.
And all the women who stood up felt the same way too.
Oh, and they were utterly humiliated. Every woman who stood up felt amiliate.
A lot of friends say, we have a group chat and we're talking about what we do in that situation. A lot of friends said, I am so delusionally tired right now that I can see myself bopping along tapping my thin being like.
Oh, I like this is.
That's just Jacko. Perfectly encapsulates what women have been trying to say with me too, and ever since everything is like, we are done with that's just Jacko, you know, I mean, it's outrageous. Just to give you a bit of an idea, though, this story and the screenshot in particular of the sexy Sidner has gone around the world, It's in the papers in America, the New York Post, It's all over the place.
Everybody's like, what is going on in Australia, This is a business meeting, blah blah blahlah blah, and you're just great.
The serious part of this is that you were talking about the people in the room when those conversations happen. This is why inclusion is so important, because because it might be women, it might be people of color, it might be people of different sexualities, different religions. If everybody in the room has the same lived experience and doesn't know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable offended, even if the intention was not to offend anyone, and I
accept that it isn't. That's why you need different people in boardrooms, you need different people in newsrooms. You need different people in management who can be the decision makers who are saying, hey, jacko, you can't do that, or hey, let's not get those dances because this is why. And the guys around that table would probably go They'll either go, oh, come on, you can't even just ogle sexy sounds anymore.
Or they'll be like, oh shit, I hadn't thought about it, but you. Also, it's not really enough to just have the person at the table. The culture has to be that you'll listen, because it's not really fair to put one woman in the room and say you tell us if you think things are problematic to a culture that's all just going to dismiss you. Like it has to be an open minded listening thing.
It does, you know?
I wanted to say about meetings. Elon Musk has a famous quote that he's given his He gives his staff permission to walk out of any meeting as soon as they realize they can no longer add value. And I just feel like if all the women.
Had been able to stand up at that minute and walk down, it would have been perfect because you'd be like, clearly, we are not adding value to this room.
I put on a sound to hat out louders.
So many of you have had a lot to say about trigger warnings in the mummey out Louder's Facebook group, and our conversation hasn't stopped. It continue in the group chat, and there was new evidence that needed to be submitted. So what we did is we recorded yesterday's subscriber episode all about trigger warnings. Here is a sneak peak from that episode.
Why are we treating adults like children. As adults, we are responsible to protect oursel.
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