Joe Finally Listened (To Jill?)

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It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty second of July.

I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm Meya Friedman.

I'm Jessie Stevens, and my weekend was made by looking at where out louders are listening. There were so many outlouders and tractors as few assumed.

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It's been a quiet few days in US election news, not really just kidding.

Joe Biden got a weekend.

I know, we did get a weekend.

And then Joe Biden very thoughtfully announced that he was stepping down, just at the perfect time for us to be able to circle our American politics wagons yep, and bring you what's next.

And of course Mayor is writing her thank you note to Joe Biden. To all the out louders who are wondering, I'm sure we'll get into that.

Also, the workplace mistake that ruined an awful lot of Friday afternoons. And yes, we are living in a world where a repentant movie star has just given a high profile interview to deny being a cannibal. Welcome to the comeback of Army Hammer.

But first, Mesad, my favorite story from the weekend, in case you missed it, is that Dubai Princess has declared her divorce on Instagram. Married Just over a year ago, Shaker Mahra posted on Instagram, dear husband, as you are occupied with other companions, I hereby declare our divorce. I divorce you. I divorce you, and I divorce you. Take care your ex wife. The only thing that could have made it better as if it was on the notes app. Who is this queen you ask? She's thirty years old.

Now.

It doesn't go the other way. Women can't divorce their husbands by this same sort of ancient tradition, so it was more symbolic than anything else. But I looked a little bit further into this very interesting woman. She got married a year ago to this dude, and she gave birth to their first child ten weeks ago.

And did you see the caption on that image of the child. I went back, as I need to look at the Instagram activity.

Well, I would, of course immediately I went back to make sure first of course, that it was her legitimate account. It is on her account that she posted that she has almost nine hundred thousand followers, and there are no photos of him because they've each deleted all the photos of each other, including of their lavish wedding, from their respective Instagram accounts.

Classic breakup. They've unfollowed each other. That's when you know it's done. And she wrote this is about six weeks ago with the baby. She just wrote just the two of us, which was weeks ago, Yeah, which might have looked, you know, out of context, just like a sweet little picture with the newborn.

But now it's very loaded.

I wanted to know more about the husband, or the ex husband as he will soon be. His name's Sheik Mana al Maktoum, and he's widely known for his involvement in various successful ventures. He has made a name for himself as a successful entrepreneur and passionate traveler, among other things.

It would seem this is an ABC News special report.

Good afternoon, I'm Rachel Scott at ABC headquarters here in New York.

We are coming on the air at this hour with breaking news.

President Biden has just announced that he is ending his reelection bid.

Biden wrote, quote that it has been the greatest honor of my life to serve as your president.

And while it has been my intention to seek reelection, I believe it.

Is in the best interest of my party and the country for me to stand down and to focus solely on fulfilling my duties as president for the remainder of my term.

The only thing hotter than the temperature here in the end the United States right now is the heat of the conversation about what's been happening. We've used the word unprecedented so many times, but we really are in unprecedented territory here with this.

On Saturday afternoon, Joe Biden called Steve Ricketti, one of his closest advisors, and told him that he needed to come to the Biden Holiday House straight away and bring with him chief strategist Mike Donnillan. The reason Biden's at the family beach house are not at work in the White House is that he's sick with COVID. And you

Dual pressuring him, maybe maybe not.

Was stepping down as the presidential candidate for twenty twenty four. It was not going to be eighty one year old Hymn taking on Trump. In November, The New York Times reports that on Sunday morning, he called three people, Vice President Kamala Harris, his White House chief of staff, and his campaign chairwoman and told them, but they didn't tell anyone else on his staff until one minute before he made the announcement to the world on social media. On Sunday,

The reaction was swift.

A surprise but not a shock, is how some described it, referring more to the timing and the manner of it than the announcement, which everybody's been kind of hoping was going to come for a while. And the Democrats immediately rolled out there, Joe is a hero, What a wonderful president,

I bet he just said, I wish you well, old mate.

Yeah, I hope you recover stiffly.

Yes, What did he say that crooked Joe Biden was not fit to run for president? He's certainly not fit to serve and he never was explamation Mark. He only attained the position of president by lies, fake news in

I was relieved, of course, I was also quite surprised because it was just it had become this incredible stalemate, and I was girding as many Democrats were. Not that I'm a Democrat, I live in a different country, but I was getting monary incensed that an entire party, and indeed, potentially an entire democratic system, was being held hostage by this man who was said to be stubborn and digging in and angry that people were betraying him. And it's like, dude, it's not about you.

I thought the whole democratic system was being held hostage by his wife, Jill.

Well, that's true because I think if Jill had said, I'm so glad you put it out, Jesse, Because if Jill had said, Joe, it's time to go stop, Joe would have been so. But if Jill had said three weeks a year ago, when he decided he was going to run, Joe, sweetie, no, then we wouldn't be here.

So the argument that we've been having for weeks is whether or not Jill actually had any power in that. I mean, now that he has stepped down, are we going to give her a little bit of credit that perhaps perhaps Jill has actually been in his earl along. They've been in the holiday house, they've been having maybe some chats, maybe some walks along the beach, maybe some bedside conversations.

She posted a love heart emoji you know, the double love hearts yep, and the sound you can hear also is Donald Trump frantically googling what rhymes with Kamala.

That brings us to what's next. Over the past few weeks, since that fateful debate, it's been widely said that there were two options for the Dems to replace Biden. Either Biden annoints Harris, making her a pretty sure shoey for the nomination going into the convention in three weeks time, similar to how we've just seen Trump right at the Republican Convention being chosen even though obviously he was chosen

You cannot claim you stand unity if you are intent on taking reproductive freedoms from the people of America and the women of America, trying to ban abortion nationwide as they do, and restrict access to IVF and contraception as their plan calls for.

She responded to the announcement that Joe Biden was stepping aside by posting on behalf of the American people. I thank Joe Biden for his extraordinary leadership as President of the United States. I'm honored to have the President's endorsement, and my intention is to earn and win this nomination. I will do everything in my power to unite the Democratic Party and unite our nation to defeat Donald Trump

Read and tell me if this is true or not. That if he endorses Kamala Harris, then the donations can go to her. But if it's a completely different nominee, then they have to raise money themselves.

If it's a completely different nominee, the money goes back to the party.

Yeah, and then it's complicated.

To the nominee in a new way. But because the money was donated to Biden Harris, it's kamel as money.

So there's about one hundred and fifty million dollars in an account. The Republicans are going to try and block that easy transition. They're already working to make that happen in that grab. In her statement, the two things that are interesting. Instead of Joe Biden, who's only been able to talk about his own mental acuity over the last little while, she named two things that are really really strong points of vulnerability for Trump and the Republican Party.

Yes, So it was very clever of Harris to mention straight off the bat in her first post, because if you have not heard of Project twenty twenty five, turned to your teenager in your life and ask them about it, right, because it is a story that's now blown up into the mainstream, but it's been bubbling away in places like TikTok for age. It's my fourteen year old knows about Project twenty twenty five what it actually is. And the ABC's four corners are doing a great two power on

Jd.

Vance has said he wants to fire all the mid level bureau crats in America on day one of Trump presidency to get the Trump sympathists in there, and then the idea is they can go hard on enacting things they really want to do, like a nationwide abortion Bannon, as Harris mentioned in that.

Speech, not just about abortion.

It's also even about contraception IVF coming after same sex marriage, marriage equality, lifting, lots of restrictions on where you can drill for oil, lots.

Of very import that sounds like tyranny.

To be honest and even handed about this, Trump has begun to distance himself a bit from the Project twenty twenty five thing, and so there are little bits of debate about how legit it really is, but it's definitely happening. The ABC's documentary got a lot of people on the record, and have a copy of the whole documentation watch.

The first thing he will do is change that you can only be president for two terms.

You say that like he's a shoe in and I would like to I am feeling optimistic relief.

So let me do tiny bit about camera and then we can go to how excited we are or are not about this now. So if you just need a very quick reminder on who Harris is, she's fifty nine, which is so.

Young in comparison. He's a gen XA.

She is a politician from California who has a really long legal career. So she was the DA for San Francisco. She was the Attorney General for California. So she's a prosecutor, right, which is why she's very good at arguing. She's married to fellow lawyer Doug Emhoff. She has two adult step children with him, and she famously said they call her Mamola when she was sworn in. She's the first woman, obviously VP, the first Black American and the first Indian

I'm excited And I think that this is a case. I remember thinking this about Joe Biden a while back, that it was a man who met his moment. And I think that this has the potential to be a candidate who's met her moment. Because she is a prosecutor who is up against a convicted felon, there's a really easy campaign line. She's hard on crime, and she always has been. That's part of her history. So she's a Democrat who's hard on crime, which it will appeal to

Yeah.

And she's not particularly Trump yeah. And she's not particularly interested in a personal narrative. So there's this great profile that was written, I think, in The New Yorker about her a few years back. She said, I don't feel comfortable talking about myself. That's not what she finds interesting.

Is also rather start contrast to somebody else.

So she's great when she has a job to do.

But I also heard someone say, who's a longtime adviser of hers, one thing that drives her crazy is getting reduced to a demographics stereotype. It is going to be enormously symbolic to have a candidate up who's the first female woman of color who's potentially president of the United States. To her, I don't think that's going to be the most interesting thing. She's very much like, I deserve this, I'm qualified for this, and I have a lot of work to do.

I don't know if she says I deserve this, but I think it was important that she said I want to earn this nomination.

What do you think of that mean?

It means that she's not accepting it as a leydown Mazet. She's not accepting it as a foregone conclusion. She knows because it's true, she does have to work, and currently, you know, reports are that she's of course working the phones. She's already got the endorsement of the Clintons, of Pete Boodage Edge of Gavin Newsom, who is another considered both of them were considered to be front runners if it was going to be an open convention.

The convention this is this is where I could see things going really wrong, right is if this breaks into all out chaos and then you have a whole lot of nominees come forward and go I want to I want it, then what can happen is that you get this infighting. We've seen this in Australia a little bit, but then you've got a lack of unity, a lack of narrative.

The Republicans jump on that. Do you see a world in which that happens.

I did before, but I don't now because I think that all the senior Democrats are working behind the scenes, and they were working behind the scenes to engineer Biden to step aside without publicly humiliating him and holding a press conference, and now they will work on what's the best thing for the party at this point, because what you describe is the American political system, but usually it

Well, already we're seeing the seeds of questioning about her heritage. So because both of her parents weren't born in the US. One was born in Jamaica and one was born in India. There's remember the Obama thing about him not being the birth is exactly.

Yeah, it's like the equivalent of but her emails. What is also going to be interesting internally is that because she's a candidate of color, what's little known about JD. Vance is that his wife is the daughter of Indian immigrants. So once he starts persecuting Kamala Harris based on her race and her Indian heritage, which he will surely, that's going to make for some slightly awkward conversations around the Vance dinner table because his children are the grandchildren of Indian immigrants.

Yeah, but Vance is pretty nationalistic himself, right, and he's all about heroing the white working class, So he plays that low. There's a dog whistle we have to listen out for. I mean, there's so many potential dog whistles a Harris. But when people say she's not a performance politician, think about women in politics. The same thing was said about Clinton, the same thing was said about Julia Gillard is they're like head girls, Like they work really hard.

Because they've had to work really effing.

Hard, much harder than lots of blokes who would have waltzed into the kind of high profile, you know, jobs that they've done that they're often kind of criticized for being too studious, serious, good at policy, good at detail, good at getting shit done, and often that gets criticized as being like, they're not very good. They're not really inspiring, are they. They're not really good orators. They're not orators.

Remember also, when you're vice president, you're not allowed to shine. Yeah, you're not allowed to outshine the president. Everything I know about US politics vice presidents I know from VEEP, of course, And that's the ongoing gag that you've got to be good, but you can't be better than the president. And you've had a president who's been pretty much invisible for the last four years, so she has had to play it down.

This is a fast evolving story, as we saw this morning. To keep across the latest headlines, listen to our twice daily news podcast, The Quickie. We're gonna pop a link in the show notes Tomorrow's deep Down. It's all about what will happen next, so tune in listen.

People can debate on style points, but ultimately this election and who is the president of the United States has to be about substance.

O the out loud for many people, Friday afternoon was ruined thanks to one workplace mistake by someone. We don't know who it was.

I'd love to know who it was.

I think that their performance review probably won't be great this year. As a result of a malfunction in some software made by a company called CrowdStrike, airport's, banks, media organizations, supermarkets, retailers, and many out louders were among the organizations and individuals whose lives were disrupted thanks to Microsoft's global outage. Now you may have heard was it Microsoft? Was it CrowdStrike?

That update had a software bug in it and caused an issue with the Microsoft operating system. And we identified this very quickly and remediated the issue, and as systems come back online as they're rebooted, they're coming up and they're working, and now we are working with each and every customer to make sure that we can bring them back online. That was the extent of an issue. The issue in terms of a bug that was.

Related to our update, as we said, that was the CrowdStrike CEO George Kurtz, But the president of that company is actually a Melbourne man called Michael Santonis.

It's been said that this incident is the largest IT outage in history. Microsoft estimate that eight point five million individual devices were hit by the outage and some of the ways in which it impacted big and small. Triple J presenters were forced to manually play the news theme to air by holding up a phone to the microphone. Oh bless, I love this, it's needs must people found ways to get shut up Channel tens. The project wasn't even sure if it would make it to air.

What am I saying?

Oh?

This is what happens when the systems go down.

Just weird text sort of appears on that.

We got a shot of a camera so you can see how the coming to attack me.

Like, so, what's happened.

Is I started reading it and then the thing just told me to go back to the start and read it again.

That's right, So there you go.

Anyway, supermarkets were accepting cash only sales with f pos down, and a lot of people, even over the weekend, could not pay with anything other than cash at supermarkets. Remember cash. Airports, of course, were in complete chaos. Some airlines were unaffected, but many were, and some of these airlines had to actually write people's boarding passes like, I don't know, here's a post it note to get on the plane. Oh my gosh.

There were more serious ones in that people couldn't pay for petrol, which just meant they were kind of stuck. Police and fire systems in Australia were affected, as well as nine to one one lines in the US. A lot of flights had to ground in the US as well, and in Britain some doctors couldn't access the NHS systems, so it got very close to seriously affecting people's lives. It didn't, and that's what I think that there was

The Obamas, you know, little fact.

It was a little bit this, And that's what I think we all wondered when we first saw it. It was like a plane's going to fall out of the air.

I don't know. And this is the thing. You just explained that.

And I would like to interrogate how much of it you actually understand, because I've read a lot about this. I don't understand what the grid is, where it is, what button went wrong?

I do understand. So this is like a component part. So you made a meal, and the provider of the salt when oh, we've had a problem at the factory. That salt's actually bad. Everyone that used that salt to make their meal and have it in their pantry has a bad meal and gets food poisoning.

And here's the problem with the salt, right, which is what a bunch of experts have come out and said, we have become so centralized that it is a tiny portion of people who now own and operate I'm gonna say all the world's Internet.

I'm not sure if that's right, but.

Certainly on the salt, all the salt, right, So all the salt is owned by the same people. So then when we go, oh, there's an issue with the salt, it's not affecting two percent of the population.

It's affecting everyone.

Because salts in everything and everything.

Salt is in everything, and nothing's good without salt.

And sometimes you don't know what salts in. So like we were like mum and me, and we were like, is our whole system down? Yes, Mum and me are gone. We didn't use salts, so we were.

Okay, this is the thing about this, and your point is absolutely right, Jesse. Is whenever these kind of big outages happen or a big crash happens, we're all reminded how reliant we are obviously on digital everything, and that for a minute freaks us out, and then we just go back to it because like that's the world now.

Because TikTok has new video.

Yeah exactly, But also we're all entirely reliant on something that we don't understand even a little bit. So it's you kind of go, oh, well, that was unfortunate salt and move on.

Yeah, And the idea that we are one button push away from utter and total chaos is something that tech experts have now said all right, So this was an ominous look at what might happen if this was done on purpose. And we've heard a lot about cyber attacks, and obviously there's been a bunch that have happened in the last year or so.

And the good news is that this wasn't that, and this was a cyber attack.

This was just human ariism.

Yeah, but I saw or the Aba Seed wrote this serves as a dress rehearsal for more sinister possibilities. For example, I was reading about natural disasters and solo storms. I don't know what a solar storm is, but something about satellites. I don't know where the satellites are. I think they're in the space. But if you go to space and destroy a satellite, then you could get portions of the world completely off the grinding in an instant.

This is just seven. You need to stop giving the bad people ideas.

This is this is one of the things that's been really interesting coming off the back of this conversation. So for a lot of people, it was just a bad day, right. I got a little glimpse into this and that I was having a little mini break with my family at the end of last week.

It was lovely.

And on Friday we went to check into a hotel Wednesday night and Culjie and Sydney, and obviously all the systems were down so they couldn't check us in and they're just like, at first they had no idea, so they're like, do you want to just sit in the lobby and wait a few minutes. I'm sure it's all going to come back.

Well, I call the manager of the internet exactly, and then you know, it became apparent ten minutes, twenty minutes, half or whatever, and so they worked around it.

But the thing is watching the staff, you know, who are all on this hotel desk in in Sydney, like managing everybody who was winging and trying to talk to each other about like as your back up, yet I'm.

Still good because they don't know what the system is.

They don't nobody does.

And so to all the outlauders who were working and having to deal with the front facing consumers who are all going, I just want to blug it on my plane, do whatever.

I mean, that was a lot.

But on the other serious side of it, for tour you were just saying, Jesse, I've heard some commentary about how Because we then cover these outages in a lot of detail and the media amplifies it. Some people are like, shush a little bit, because you are making it really clear just how vulnerable we are and how copycat basically attack. It's a how to guy because it wasn't an attack, as we've said, so we don't all need to freak

I think they heard us talk about it on outline. What I never thought of doing it.

They just learned what strike is. Oh, I'll get them that.

The kind of security clearance you needed to get access to anything that could take down the world or whatever. Launch missiles used to be a very seriously guarded thing, and now we're just like, oh, set a virus loose on me, assault.

And pulled the plug out. The world's on its feet.

Pull the plug out, and I don't know where my money is.

Well, the money thing's interesting because we experienced the optors shut down a little while ago. We got over that pretty quickly. But this idea of cash and how reliant we are the only reason I have cash and I happen to have cash on Friday is because my alterationist only takes cash. And that is literally the only time I ever have cash is when I have to go

They won't even be able to transfer.

They won't. Yeah, but I thought, maybe we won't even be able to go, maybe the restaurant will be closed. It wasn't, And everyone paid with card except for me. I paid with cash, and everyone's like, what, she's a prepper. It doesn't it make you think? It's making me a bit preppy. Where I'm going to be like, I think maybe a bit of cash under the mattress, nor anyone who's listening. I will not be having cash at home.

Yeah, that's what you'll have on your front door. Cash is kept on promise, But I.

Just think maybe in theory it would be good for some people to get some cash and have them in some places.

It felt a bit why two K it did like I and that didn't happen.

Because enough to remember why she came I do.

I always terrified because I was ten and ten year olds were really across y two K. I had a lot of brain space to take up and go, oh my god, everything's going to fall from the sky when it turns into two thousand. But we had a hy two K moment, and I just think it's a reminder that we're all plugged into something none of us understand.

We can't operate without it.

Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We dropped episodes every day Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from me of subscribers, follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

A new documentary appears, Morgan Interview and How a Cancelation Saved a Life. Armie Hammer is back and is debating the semantics of the word cannibal. Before we get into it, if that word or anything in that domain might not be appropriate listening right now.

What if you're triggered by the word cannibal?

No, maybe you're just in the workplace, you're listening to it out loud, and you don't want to hear the graphic details of someone's text messages from Tipically.

He didn't actually eat anyone.

But the words are pretty confronting.

Holly thinks maybe he did.

Some of the words are pretty confronting. So I'm giving you a heads up.

Are you a cannibal?

No?

You know what you have to do to be a cannibal. You have to have actually eaten someone.

Have you ever eaten any human flesh? No? What do you feel that a large swathe of the public think Armie Hammer is accounibal?

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

But the reason they would believe is because you said it.

Sure, I'm one hundred percent of cannon and I think a lot of these things, these text messages. So it's this. This was a very intense affair, very sexually charged between two people with very similar proclivities and kinks, and any of those conversations that we had inside of that relationship. When you take them outside of that context and put them into broad daylight. Doesn't look so good.

Today, we want to talk about the Piers Morgan interview that broadcast on YouTube on Friday, which is Hammer's first televised interview in three years. Armie Hammer is thirty seven years old, and in twenty twenty one, multiple women came forward claiming the actor, who you might know from the social network.

He played the Winklevoss tweet as he did and he was the only thing I.

Know him from Call Me by Your Name one of the best movies ever. These women claimed that he'd abuse them. It began when a woman started leaking Instagram direct messages sent from a man she said was Armie Hammer. Some of the messages read, I am one hundred percent a cannibal. I want to eat you, I need your blood, I crave it. He expressed rape fantasies. He said he wanted women to be his slaves. He told another woman he had a desire to cook and eat one of her ribs.

I do think he has a point. If you don't actually aid a person, are you accountable?

And I suppose that was at the time when a celebrity says that that's the headline, but it was the way in from a much larger story.

True.

He spent the first ten minutes or so of the interview talking about his mental health, the impact of fame and success on his life, and how addiction made him behave in ways he's not proud of. He acknowledges that Robert Downey Jr. Helped him but didn't pay for his rehab as was reported. And there was also this which he said about his friendships.

People are sending me private emails saying, I know this isn't you, Like this is crazy who this guy? Like I've known you for years? This guy who they're talking about, Like it's just not you. And I was like, why are you sending me emails say something about this? Like why is everyone saying to me directly like we know this isn't real, say it publicly, like help me? And Clark looked at me and he said, you know, what

It's also worth noting that this appearance follows two other appearances on podcasts, one where he said there were things that people were saying about me that just felt so outlandish that I was a cannibal. He said during a podcast appearance, Now I'm able to sort of look at it with a sense of distance and perspective and be like, that's hilarious. People called me a cannibal and everyone believed them.

Is this? It is this?

I have issues with this way he's presenting this, This whole thing.

Is the moment that Armie hammer comes back.

Well, I think he's going to be on celebrity ESAs without a shadow of a doubt and possibly dancing with the stars.

I really doubt it.

I want to know me as our ex but strategist. Why Piers Morgan not exactly the most credible, like it's one of the biggest it's definitely one of the biggest places. But Piers Morgan will give a mic to anyone. Famously, recently, the woman who was alleged to have been the Baby Reindeer stalker.

He'll last month he did Kevin Spacey.

Yes, it's like a lot of possibly more mainstream media outlets, Mike go Maybe we don't want to give that person any amplification. So why Piers Morgan.

I actually don't think anyone would have said no to an interview with Armie Hammy really no, absolutely not, or the woman from Baby Reindeer or Kevin Spacey. I think that. I think that just because you interview someone doesn't mean you're endorsing them or doesn't mean that you don't get to ask them really hard questions. I think all of

So there's that.

Then there's the fact that it is on the internet. It's on YouTube. He's Morgan's shows, so it means that everybody all over the world can watch it for free straight away. So it's almost the interview equivalent of posting on social media. It's completely globally accessible, so it's the way to reach the most amount of people in the most effective short amount of time. And what's interesting about

And then he remember then you remember some of the things that he is alleged to have done. Does Piers Morgan also have the home for pariahs? Perhaps because here's a pariah himself, just a little bit from the mainstream media world, so he has a bit of a sympathy for that.

Absolutely, And he's definitely made a name for himself as being the anti cancelation person and has resisted being canceled himself. So this idea of what do you do if you're canceled to that extent, well, the only thing that you can do, we're starting to see now is stare down the barrel of it and confront it. And robs are a period of time after a period.

But here's the thing. I want to push back on the idea that anyone would be happy to have Armi Hammer on their show. That's like would anybody be happy to have p Diddy on their show?

Right now?

Like, I think that giving a platform and I, you know, to somebody who has these serious charges, I don't know they're not legal charges, although they could have turned out to be legal charges. Again them Armie Hammer giving them the platform and the mic to state their case.

But is that been hang on a second hole, What do you think journalism is? Is that what journalism is is interviewing someone giving them a platform or is it holding them to account?

But I don't think in this case it is because it is very much part of his comeback strategy, right like, let's do some softball, let's do Piers Morgan. You're right, he does ask the hard questions, but it's not a woman because the thing that you forget about listening to him and listen to him. Then he talks about how a lot of this was consensual. He talks about cheating on his wife, but that he was in a very bad place with his mental health and his addiction, which

I can't see.

It as just a oh cute Hollywood comeback story. I don't because the reason people get so upset and defensive about.

It is for a very very very.

Long time men like Armie Hammer, who, let's be clear, the reason his book there's a documentary about his family at the moment on streaming is because he comes from a long line of very wealthy very powerful people, and a lot of people in Hollywood had issues with him for a long time. They were saying, they're trying to make him a star. They're trying to make us make him a star because he has all this serious backing.

But he there's something about him, right, Jesse.

I didn't watch the whole interview. What was his defense or his explanation or his interview about all these things he's been accused of. Did he admit them, did he deny them?

There were particular points where it just got very much into semantics. So there's one allegation, and it's interesting what Piers Morgan doubles down on and what he doesn't, I suppose, But one was the branding question. Peers Morgan was like, I was quite surprised by that that you would brand someone, and he said, oh, it's like, you know, lovers getting

So did he say that the whole thing was in the context of BDSM relationships.

Yes, and consent essentially.

And he has prud used some alcoholism, yes, as he was in the throes of addiction.

And that some of those messages were sent when he was high. He has also told the story, and he has told this story before about considering ending at all, and he got very emotional. He spoke about his children and the experience of and you can't watch this and not feel something. When he's talking about visitation with his daughter.

So he's positioned and this is what's.

Really know if that's the worst thing in the world.

But yeah, but you see a man crying because he knows he's let down his children, right, And that's what.

An interview with crime because he got caught.

But I think, and this is the thing, is that whatever Army Hammad did, that doesn't take away the fact that he's a human being who's probably had a shitty few years, right, And he's not been convicted of a crime, and he's not being convicted of a crime. So this is where I get really stuck. I get stuck on this ethically and morally, and I can't quite resolve it is. I have started watching House of Hammer, and those allegations are horrifying, and they fit the profile, and it's it's

A few years.

They've had years telling these stories that are really horrifying about some of the stuff he did to them. Obviously they say that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute him. But what do we want Armie Hammer to do when we hear the story about him considering ending his life? I mean, that's the cancel culture, which is imperfect, and you know, I'm not sure that's exactly what it is. But do we want people to die? No, we don't want people to die. Do we think that they have

He's trying to come back, right, So what he's doing is he's testing the waters. And I read some analysis of this from the Hollywood prs who said exactly this. They're saying, he's trying to stage a soft comeback. So let's just test. Let's just see, you know, I'll do a couple of podcasts. I'll do Peers Morgan, We'll see

Does anyone else.

So well, remember a while ago when it was rumored or clearly stated that he was working at a resort in the Bahamas, and everybody got a lot of laughs out of that, and they.

Were all like, ha ha ha.

Look at him now organizing golf days, and we were all saying, well, you know, the man's got to work. There are many other paths to redemption that do not involve Peers Morgan high profile interviews him getting back into Hollywood him getting jobs, because the thing is the issue for people like Armie Hammer, whether we call this a sexual assault charge when there aren't actually legal charges on

But I've seen that movie and he's all the way through is good.

He's great, but also in that he also plays a sort of romantic hero but with a dark edge. He's always got those guys, because clearly that's sort of what people have always sensed about him, but him being so indignant about you don't understand that I'm just a nice family man who off the wagon for a little bit. And then you've got this cohort of young women who have no power at all saying, actually, this ruined my life.

I don't wish him ill.

I don't wish him to go away, but just come and get a real job and stop popping up on every screen. I look at planning your comeback.

I think the market will decide, and you're right, he's not owed anything by anyone. And if this is dipping his toe in the water, I mean Hollywood is mercenary in that no one wants to take a risk if they think there will be a backlash at the box office or streaming or wherever it is. So if people don't believe that he can come back in a way, that's commercially viable and that an audience will forgive or

Hammer said, you could get the likes of me and Kevin Spacey very cheap right now because we can't get a job. And I was like, yeah, that's a worry. But you're going to have this tier of canceled men that are, regardless of what you think of what they did.

Really good actor, really good actors that you could get really good discount.

Pass are you going to get your money back?

And that's the interesting thing we've talked before on here about Luis c k for example, the comedian who you know, sex scandal again using that very generous term, sort of ended his mainstream career, but he makes a very good living as a sort of professional canceled comedian who he sells his own tickets through his own channels, He does all his own marketing, and that's working out really.

Well for him.

A bit harder for the movie stars because they need to be employed by somebody, and as Mia says, by radio. And the thing is it didn't used to be like that. Powerful men have been getting away with shit like this for generations and usually paid off.

Go away.

We don't believe that anyway, and they'll get the backing. But the tables have turned. Don't have that many tears.

To shed from me before we go.

So many out louders have a lot to say about last week's group therapy episode.

It was one of the juiciest ones we've had.

It was we had a very big argument about it, and I was a little bit I'll give you a vibe.

It was about a.

Woman who is being woken up by her husband pleasuring himself beside her in the middle of the night, and we discuss whether or not frozen, the pros and cons, whether that's fair, and whose.

Team are we on.

Sort of sparked a lot of a device for me, or about how she can look at her phone in the night without her husband, And to be clear, that wasn't nothing like sexual or sorted about that, But me, I was like, I sympathize.

Because I want to look at my phone and I can't, and lots of so hard I do this do that?

You got to be considerate when you're sharing a bed.

Here is a sneak peek of the episode.

What if she just went and sorted herself out in the middle of the night and he knocked on the door and went, hey, what are you doing? What? You've woken me up with the noise of that buzzing? What are you doing? I feel really offended.

But that's not what's happening. She's being woken up in the night with her husband. I don't think it's thet abating in their bed. Next week is he laziest?

It is lazy to do.

It, laziest, most uncaring. Like she's asked him not to do it, he continues to do it.

That is the issue.

Did she ask him not to masturbate or did she ask him not to wake her up and do it next to her? Like if someone was doing it right next to you. I can see why that feels almost a bit intimate.

A link to that will be in the show notes and out loud as.

We always want your dilemmas, so if you've got a spicy one, please email us at out loud at mommeya dot com dot au.

We will have a link to that email in the show notes.

A very massive thank you to all of you out louders for coming and listening to our show today. Gosh, the news cycle has been a lot. And to our fabulous team for putting this show together. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

Bye.

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If you love the show and you want to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do so.

A link in the episode description

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