You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Hello and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourth of March. My name is Holly wayIn.
Wright, my name is Amelia Lester, and.
My name is Clare Steps.
And here's what's made our agenda for today. In the middle of a dramatic conflict, why are there so many headlines about influences stranded in Dubai.
I'm going to mount a vigorous defense for oversharing. TMI is back and.
Is it the end of Kyle and Jackie?
Oh?
We have questions.
But in case you missed it, has Jim Carrey been cloned?
Now?
I kept seeing headlines about his face looking weird, and I didn't care because I haven't thought about Jim Carrey since the mask, which for younger listeners was during a period called the nineteen nineties. But then I couldn't avoid this particular headline because in twenty twenty six, you know what, Jim Carrey probably has been cloned. And it's not even
the craziest thing to happen today. Jim Carrey was in Paris recently receiving a prestigious award of which there is no other kind in France, and apparently he received the award by speaking influent French. But that wasn't even the strangest part of the whole thing. People thought he looked really different, and I'm talking really different. They were pointing out that this particular new Jim Carrey has light eyes,
whereas real Jim Carrey has dark brown eyes. They were pointing out other like little bits of his face that looked very different. Even Megan Fox, remember her, She got in on the action. She said, I can't handle any more stress right now. I need to know if this is real. You and me, both, Maggie, you and me both. Fortunately, Jim's rep did come out and he confirmed that Jim has not been cloned, so we can all relax.
That's what the rep of a clone would say.
You're good, You're good. So are you? Are you a clone believer?
Okay? The biggest source of confusion in this story for me is Jim Carrey in these photos and videos looks significantly less unrecognizable than most people in Hollywood right now, Like I was like, no, that's still him, that's still him. Does he look really different?
Yeah?
But I honestly think there are about twenty five other people we need to ask questions.
You can't have like slightly longer hair to me.
Clone wars. I think it's interesting because clearly what has happened here is that Jim Carrey and who knows of what period of time, because as you said, merely we haven't really been watching, we haven't really been paying close attention, has done a lot of things to his face, and what interesting some.
Just that masks fun intended.
But what's interesting to me is that this is really interesting how this is how we talk about men who've done anti aging procedures and surgeries, where he's like, there must be something strange going on, he must be a clone. Whereas the women who were doing this to your point, Clare, we're all like, oh, so sad, slash so amazing.
Slash sire emoji, so tragic.
But also go you. But like with the men, we're just like, there must be a scientific explanation. Yeah, I it says a lot about true the aging of men and women's differently.
And we find it interesting and like an investigation, but not in the sense of has he had an upper bleft? Not that it's like is he real? Yes?
Is he real?
Whereas when it's a woman, it's a moral failing. It is, and if she hasn't changed her face she's utterly discussing, it's.
A moral failing both ways, whereas he's just a puzzle to be sold.
For over twenty years, Kyle Sandlans and Jackie O Henderson have been Australia's most commercially successful and most controversial radio duo, but on Friday, the twentieth of February, the pair had an on air clash that appears to have completely blown up their working relationship. Anyone who has ever listened to the show, which I will admit.
Is me, let's be clear, this is a very Sydney based show. Yeah right, So although they're national in some ways, Sydney people in particular have an intense relationship with Kyle and Jackiet.
It's kind of unavoidable that you've been flicking through the radio and you've caught a segment. So anyone who has ever listened to it will know that a fight between them is unsurprising. There are often headlines about one of them storming out for summer. It'll be like, where's Kyle He hasn't shown up for work for five days, or
that Jackie stormed out, whatever it is. But this clearly was different because on that Friday show a couple of weeks ago, they were addressing the news surrounding Andrew Mountbatton Windsor when Jackie read out the ex prince's astrological birth chime.
Which is an angle we didn't think of.
I know, I'm disappointed. I'm actually really disappointed, and Kyle lost it and I want to play a bit of that exchange. Your fixation on this has made you almost unworkable.
It's not that bad.
You're not talking.
I'm talking to that like that's not fair like, but it's actually true.
But you might have done that in five minutes.
But you're off with the fairies with where you no, no, no, tell me where I've been off with the fairies during the show.
I don't have to I don't have to prove something.
Listen to the program.
You'll hear yourself.
Just give me to be aware of what's really.
Can I ask you, as a I think it's better say, seasoned listener of this show, how is this exchange to your ears different from all those past blow ups that you've mentioned have been documented in the press.
So in a lot of ways it's similar. Like they do press each other's buttons, and Jackie does go, oh, Kyle like if you if she had a SoundBite, it would just be Kyle like, why are you doing that? But in this particular one, I think you could tell that she was genuinely offended and embarrassed that he had embarrassed her.
And to me, the most painful bit of that conversation isn't in that grab, but it's the bit where he says, ask anyone in the building, everyone who works here has been talking about it, and anyone in any workplace. The idea that everyone in the workplace is talking about them is particularly vicious.
And she says back to him, I would never say things like that about you, which is true because as a listener, there are many days where you're like, Kyle is phoning it in today, he didn't go he was recording from home, doesn't give a crap, and Jackie plays along because that's how you have to do radio.
So do you think the distinction was a little bit that they used to kind of like ragging on each other personally within these boundaries, but in this situation. He started telling her why she was bad at her job. Yeah, and that was what was galling to her about it.
Yeah, and that seems to be the line you don't cross. It's like he can comment on her appearance, he can comment on her love life, he can comment on her sex life anything, but actually her professionalism is one place that he doesn't usually.
Happened immediately after that.
When the news broke about Jackie walking out and not being on air. We talked about it in our meeting and we were trying to decide whether to cover it at that time because this kind of thing has happened a bit and we didn't know where it was going to end up. But then on Tuesday this week, ARN, the network therewith released a statement and it read, Jacqueline Henderson has given notice that she cannot continue to work
with mister Kyle Sandalans. It went on to say that ARN has terminated their contract with her and she will cease to present the show, but they've offered her the
possibility of an alternative show on the network. Then it went on to say that ARN have provided written notice to Sandalands that it considers his behavior during the segment an act of serious misconduct which is in breach of his contract, and he's been given fourteen days to remedy the breach and if it's not remedied, his contract will be terminated and for those fourteen days he won't be
on the show. So the Kiss Breakfast Show, aka the most lucrative show in Australian radio, has been taken off air immediately.
The reason that that is also such a big story too because again this is a Sydney radio show, but their national figures possibly because famously, when they sign this contract, it's the biggest contract in well in media, not just in radio. It's one hundred million.
Dollars one hundred million dollars over ten years, so this is unprecedented money and that when they signed that contract it was quite public and it was a big celebration and it was seen as you know, oh, in the celebration for them, obviously not necessarily for the culture, but.
It was a big celebration and seen as like, wow, this is the most lucrative partnership in Australian media, and no question is the most lucrative and she is, as Mia made the point when she was on No Filter the year before last the highest paid female in Australian media by a very long way. So this kind of paints a picture of why this story is so big because by blowing up this contract, as they have done obstensibly over this fight, they've blown up one hundred million dollars.
And that's my question.
Do we think that this contract blow up is about the fight or is there something else at work here? Either strategy on the radio networks part, Jackie's part, what do we think.
You often get this in media, but there has been Like in January twenty twenty five, Jackie O did a Stella interview and she talked about the boys club in media that makes women feel like they don't matter and her talking about this stuff. It was kind of tied to promotion of her book, which came out late twenty
twenty four. It is kind of the first time she's positioning herself as a bit of because she's in this partnership with somebody Kyle Sandalans, who is known to be absolute shock job, says awful things about women, and she's
kind of clearly trying to separate herself from that. And then an in studio argument between Kyle and Jackie o seem to have happened in May twenty twenty five, but it was a similar conversation where Sandalans was criticizing Jackie's work habits and she stormed out and he kind of made fun of like, are you sure you're the full quid? Like is basically is there much going on up there?
So there had been these little scandals that have sort of been going on for the past years, so I feel like it's been building.
So to be clear too, when she wrote that memoir and she came into Mamma Mia and did two parts sit down with me or about that. We'd actually been trying to get her to come and talk to Momma Mia for a long time because, as I say, whether or not you approve of the Kyle and Jackie Oh Show and whether you approve of her role as kind of Kyle's chief apologist, which is a role she played for a very long time. She is a very significant
media player. And when she wrote that memoir, she was very honest about the fact she'd struggled with addiction, that she'd gone into rehab in America for addiction to painkillers, that she'd been through, you know, over the course of
two decades of working with Kyle. She'd been through all kinds of things, you know, fertility troubles, divorce, financial issues, addiction, and it was a very honest, frank kind of exploration of what that career was like to And obviously in the press for that, she is constantly asked, you sit next to this guy. Women hate this guy, although not all women hate this guy, obviously, but many women do.
Aren't you enabling him? And one of the things that is obviously being speculated here is that for a very very long time she wore that and she literally sat there and in her book I've read a memoir, their
friendship appears to be genuine. He also famously is the one who said will negotiate together anything I get paid, you get paid, which you know, she's always painted as a bit of a feminist move on his part, because he certainly didn't have to do that, And it feels to me like a sort of slow realization on her part, or maybe not a realization, but of that I don't
think I can do this anymore. Yeah, you know, because I think that she has always been good for his brand, because she softens him, and there's always a kind of idea that well, if she's there, he can't really be a woman hating misogynist, even when he's calling a journalist a fat slag or he's doing one of the many other awful things he's done, whereas he's actually terrible for her brand, like he's brought a riches and fame that partnership.
But it's always meant whenever we write about her or have her a Mama Mire for example, when she was on No Filter, will have a very large portion of the audience. They're probably thinking it and doing it right now, who go no, Like, she is not good for women, she's not a supporter of women because she's worked with that guy. And at what point do you get jack of that? And at what point is what was once joshing and fun and lucrative for you? Do you actually go nah?
Because that's what was interesting listening to this exchange that clearly upset her and he's taking a dig at her work ethic and how she's become obsessed with astrology, and it's derailing the show. As a listener, you're thinking derailing the show?
Dude?
Do you know how many times you have had advertisers pull out of the show have had us cautioned and warned and suspended and got us in massive hot water. And she's sat there and.
She famously have to have a sensor in the room saw him.
Yeah, and think about what they could be talking about if they weren't talking about astrology. It's such a missed opportunity. But just on the astrology point for a minute. I think one of the most relatable parts of this story about people earning one hundred million dollars for talking on the radio is that every woman goes through a phase where she is obsessed with astrology. It happens to all of us. I know what happened to me, and it
typically coincides. I'm not speculating about anything in Jackie's life. I'm noticing that anecdotally, it coincides with going through a bit of a reckoning in your personal life, a bit of a moment where you don't quite know where you're going. You might feel a little bit lost, and looking to the stars helps you feel a sense of confidence and control that you don't otherwise have. I went through a phase where I was paying for an app which told me what the stars had in store for me that day.
It is really relatable because when you have that friend who's gone down that rabbit hole, it's a sort of thing where it's so interesting to them and it's so boring to everyone else. Yes, because you don't understand any of like a birth chart in your head, you're.
Like, hey, but that's absolute bullshit.
It's made up. There's no such thing like you're thinking that.
Well, remember they came out with that science a couple of years ago. It said, we actually are all saying that we're the wrong star signed because they've done the calculations and it's changed.
So and if you're earning one hundred million, you could probably have an astrologer on Speedaley if you would like. Also, Jackie is just turned fifties, turn fifty last year. I mean, I know this is maybe a generous take. The woman doesn't need the money. Let's be honest. She's been earning
very very good money for a really long time. And I think that if as is being speculated, that a lot of what she's put up with in that studio, in terms of the just joking from Kyle, does get to a point where you're just like, no, Like, there have been toxic work relationships in my life over the years and in previous jobs where you have a dynamic that you're willing to put up with because it's fun and it's working, but it can very easy tip over
into something much more serious, depending on how you're feeling about yourself, depending on your position, and if you're fifty one. Also, twenty five years is a very long time to work with somebody. I wonder it's like a marriage.
Yeah, it really is. And I wonder the other thing I kind of think I heard when I was listening to this. Jackie has in terms of her brand, gone through a bit of a metamorphosis over the last couple of years, coming out about this addiction, that nobody had any idea about being incredibly vulnerable, about how she was showing up to work and what her life looked like
at that darkest, darkest moment. And I wonder when Kyle's having a dig about her being off with the fairies, about her not doing her job, and everyone's talking about her, I think it kind of presses on a bruise for her. It's not just like a funny haha, a dopey Jackie, dopey Jackie. It's actually that is my core vulnerability that I've shared with the world and you are pressing on it.
She also has another business going on right with her best friend and manager, Jemma O'Neil, and they have a business together called Besties and they do sort of events and trips and they bring out speakers to Australia. And that's clearly when she started that around the same time as the memoir, it all began to feel like next
acts and stuff. And again, as I sort of said before, one of the problems with her being able to move into whatever her next act is is He's always an albatross there, not in terms of finance and success, but in terms of a happy, positive, female focused brand. It just is a clash that is not gonna work.
And in terms of where they are professionally. I have always found it a little bit funny that so with this new one hundred million dollar contract, they went on air in Melbourne and it didn't work.
Hasn't worked at all.
Everyone in Melbourne was like, absolutely not. And I just think that is the biggest if they're just.
Ordering their like fancy types of expresso dress and saying we don't have time for Trady versus Lady, which he told me is a segment on the.
Show I was explaining to Amelia Trady versus lady, and Amelia was like, is that because a trade can't be a lady? And I said, yes, man, you've got it.
Are always very smug about their rejection of Kyle and Jackie Hoe, and I think there is something to be proud of there. But at the same time, and I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the reason that they make all that money is because they bring in all the advertising. And what that tells you is that there is an enormous audience what they do, and maybe the audience is fragmenting and changing now and that the
peak has passed, right. I mean, you could totally see a world where Kyle is now podcast king being a Joe Rogany type following his mate Kyl. But it's like they spoke to a lot of people, a lot of a really diverse audience that a lot of media wasn't speaking to for a really long time. And whatever you think about that, it's impressive.
In a moment.
Why TMI is actually a Okay, hello out loud as it's Mia and yesterday, what did we talk about on our subscriber episode. Well, I'm so glad you asked, because Amelia and I did a part two of our conversation about c BK and JFK and the story of Well the Love Story, which is the show that Ryan Murphy made about their doomed relationship. If you're not already a subscriber, please follow the link in the show notes to get out loud in your ears five days a week and you can listen to us right now.
So oversharing is generally seen as I think we can say a bad thing. Think of some of the classic oversharers. Prince Harry, in his book Spare talks about his frostbitten penis, which he solved with Elizabeth.
Arden eight hour cream.
What doesn't it do again?
Or think about the Norwegian Winter Olympian who at this Olympics desperately wanted to tell his girlfriend, who he loves very much, that he had recently cheated on her. In both these instances, you might ask why is this business? But a new book by a Harvard psychologist says that we would be wrong. In fact, oversharing is a kind of shortcut to intimacy. It's a secret power. It can benefit our love lives, our careers, our friendships, and the
only catch is that we have to be vulnerable. The book is called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing by Leslie John's.
So Leslie says that you need.
To start sharing more in basically all situations. She says at work, great dating, definitely people.
Who are married.
You have to keep talking about your feelings, which every straight man loves to hear. So she has four steps for sharing more for very private people. But before I get to the four steps, I want to know what each of you feel about TMI. Are you oversharers, Claire, Let's start with you.
I think I've become more of an oversharer. Jesse is definitely a lot more of an oversharer than I am, which is yeah. So I think between the two of us, I feel like I'm.
Not Are we defining oversharing is like really personal stuff or sickness?
It depends on the context, right, Like I think at work and Jesse and I know each other primarily through work. I would say the bar for what is TMI at work is fairly low, meaning that anything to do with your toilet habits, perhaps if your stomach is a little bit in a difficult spot.
Right now, you had a fight with your partner.
I think all of these things maybe not typically what you want to be sharing with people at work.
I've seen Jesse on stage at out Loud show and seeing her maybe talking about sex or talking about sex, and I'm like, whoa, I never in one million years.
No sex. I think in general is considered overshare at work.
I mean you're British, like I assume that overshare for you is like how you take your team.
Yeah, everyone has a different line, don't they. Right, So I don't think I'm an oversharer. But because my job requires me to talk about myself a fair amount, people will often say, oh, I can't believe how open you are, and I'll be like, oh, mate, you have no idea.
Think I don't tell you.
I find it in a private setting. If I've just met somebody and they go straight in with an overshare, I know some women love that. I can't say that I do.
So can we talk about me for a little bit?
Please? Do I think that you're a very private Yes?
You said this to me in the prep and I was fascinated because I think I'm I'm actually a very frank person, and in fact that sometimes has got me into trouble in my friendships that people perceive me as being too frank. But I guess what you meant by private is that I don't have social media, and social media is a forum where people love to share. Is that overshare if it's on social media, maybe almost by definition it's not oversharing.
Well, social media runs on overshareh Let's be honest, and again everyone has upset their boundaries about that. But I think when I said that about you, because you're right, you're a very frank and direct person and generally speaking, if I ask you a question, you're going to tell
me the answer. But your private in that I don't think that the average people who would mill around you in an office would know very much about where you live, what your family's like, because it's just not your thing. You're not going around spilling personal details all the time, whereas there are people in our office. Yeah, I love very much, Yes, but I feel like I know way too much about that weekend. Yeah, way too much, which is fine.
Here's the complicated thing and why I find it hard to define whether I'm an oversharer. The thing about sharing and disclosure in general as like a psychological thing that we do is that it should be based on reciprocity. So it should be me having a conversation with someone and they say, oh, I had horrible postnail depression with my child, and like, oh my gosh, how hard is it those few months? And that is how you develop a relationship, where you go just a little bit deeper,
a little bit deeper, and you take turns. That has changed in twenty twenty six where so much of our sharing is one way. Like the weird thing about Harry and that Olympian is that there was no reciprocity. It was just them. It's just Harry being like, let me tell you a.
Story in person.
We would then reciprocate to Harry with a story about our private parts, and then we'd become closer us.
And we'd warm up to the penis.
So I think oversharing is what, as I say, is the fuel of social media knowing what's going on in people's lives. But it's been there's a sort of snobbery about it. And so is this information, this article, this idea that we should be less judged.
Yes, I think that's perfectly put and let me talk you through the four steps, because they did get me thinking about how I can maybe sprinkle a little bit of Team I throughout my life to enrich and deepen my relationships. Number One, you're meant to do an audit of your daily life and identify those opportunities at which you could have shared more. Now I think we all have those, right. Maybe you're talking to a colleague you don't know that well. They ask you how your weekend was.
That's a classic decision point where you have to decide how much to share. You can either be like, it was great, very relaxing, thank you, or you can tell them about the stomach bug you had on Saturday night.
Yeah, this is a very good example because so if I'm trying to build a relationship with someone and I'm in kitchen at work and they I say, how is your weekend? And they say, I was actually really depressed on Saturday. I've broken up with my partner and I spent the whole day crying in bed with my cat. Like, the problem with that overshare is what I do with it. You've given me as you've opened that door, and I can't just go, oh, great, see you later. But really
really can't. So but that person sharing that with me tells me that A they really needed to get it off their chest, and B they are trying to build an intimacy with me.
It is a bed, it's a bid, it's a.
Pedal, isn't it. It's like I'm reaching to you. So then I have to say, oh, mate, that sounds terrible, what happened?
Or share a struggle in your own weekend, because we've all got there. I have to go, oh, yeah, yeah, I've got a problem too.
So here's step two.
Consider the cost of not sharing what popped into your mind because I think too often. I think the point that Leslie is making here is that we too often we overthink it and that's why we don't end up oversharing.
But she's saying, how bad can.
It be to just open up a little bit more, Just be a little bit more open.
Step three starts more.
I think perhaps the example you just gave that person gave a little.
Bit too much information to you.
And then four, which I think is interesting, you do have to ask questions. She says that people assume that you don't want to pry, but in fact, people want to be asked questions and they don't think of them as invasive because they're just really to be talking about themselves.
Yeah, that's really interesting. I don't know is this British or is this personality or what. But like, I'm quite good at keeping other people's secrets. Say, I know that something's going on in your life, right, So I know that something's going on in your life. That's a bit tricky and it's challenging, but you're getting on with your you're getting on with work. We don't all want to be stopped every two minutes for everyone to go, how
do your mum or whatever it is? Right, I'm going to absolutely respect that, and I'm not really going to talk to you about it much. Every now and again, I'll give you a little arm squeeze and be like, you're right. But that might be seen as cold, but I assume that people don't want to talk about it, do you know what I mean?
Well, that's why it's so interesting that the three of us are sitting here, because Holly, you come from a culture of not oversharing. I have spent many years in the US, which I would say errs on the side of TMI. One quick story is that when I started university in the US, I was meeting my roommates for the first time. We were going around in a circle saying our name and where we were from. I said, I'm Amelia. I'm from Sydney, Australia. Next person next to me says, I'm so and so and I have an
eating disorder. Wow, And I thought, okay, it's great to know that on first blush. And it really set me up for Americans and how they as a rule operate, the rough three hundred million of them. But as a rule, particularly when it comes to topics around the body, sex, money, I would say that Americans are much more inclined to share details. They'll tell you New Yorkers certainly will tell you how much money they're paying rent. Can you imagine a city side of opening up about that?
And interesting the.
Fact that prices are always withheld on houses here I find so interesting because it just speaks to this desired to be private.
Would an American ask you how much you earn?
No, because that intersects with capitalism, and they don't want to tell you that because then.
They might have their own earning powers like diminished.
In some way. They would ask you how much your house costs.
They would absolutely ask you how much your house costs.
They expect you to tell them how much an item of clothing is if you compliment them on it. So we have Claire here to kind of mediate between the two of us and to because I do think Australia sits somewhere between the UK and the US in terms of overshare. What do you think of the topics that Australians will not talk about.
I mean, I think what's weird about Australia is that some of those topics we joke about where the undertone is kind of oversharing, and Americans don't necessarily share the sense of humor.
Just talk about an example.
So I joke a lot about like I'll be like I'm poor or just yes exactly so, like or I'll joke about my family in a self deprecating way, or so my now husband and I lived in the West three year and he was going to a music college. And on his first day he walked in and somebody was like, what instrument do you play? And where he's like a pay piano and he's like, so, how good are you? And where he's like, oh, I I don't know, I'm okay, and this guy was just like, if you're okay,
then why are you here? Like you know what I mean.
Like, it's kind of pretty good.
I absorbed it for a year. But it's like, I think our way of oversharing or showing vulnerability is through self deprecations. It's not as frank, right.
What about the idea. You know, there's a stereotype that I think is true to a point that groups of women overshare quickly and early to establish trust, yeah, and vulnerability and the fact that they are not a threat. So you see those memes all the time of like women after five minutes, where they like it starts with Hi, how are you, And before you know it, it's like and then my father left and then I ended up,
and they're like, that's just her women roll me. It is very good at that she was one of the reasons why she's great in like a business or a social situation. People you don't know. She'll just go up to them and be like you look sad, and some people really respond to that or whatever the equivalent of that is, And before you know it, they're telling you what they're at, what medications they're on what they had for breakfast, how many times they have sex, whatever. I don't like that too early.
But then how are you making the friendships? Because I do think that's a big part of it.
If I'm a a girl's dinner in commerce and there, and I might not know everybody, it takes me a while to warm to that. Somebody goes straight in with their childhood trauma or their eating disorder to your point or whatever and a thing or their relationship messages. I always think, why are you telling me that you don't know if you can trust me? Maybe that's it, Like there's a you know what I mean. I would never share in a circle.
Of people you knew how about it work? Because my sense about oversharing in the workplace is that and I feel like I've learned the hard way by oversharing. And we have a weird workplace where you sort of do
overshare publicly in the space that you work. And I feel like as a leader, when I was editor in chief here, I was very I guess vulnerable oversharing about my weaknesses, like I would be very self deprecating about like I guess it's kind of weird to be running a content team and then doing content where you're joking about being lazy, and then kind of running a content team and also being really transparent about the fact that you're bad at confrontation and you're bad at being assertive.
But by the way, like the lazy girl trope, it is a joke because you were the editor in chiefly you have written a book. Like I think that's why you felt able to make that joke. If we go deep and we psychoanalyze it, yes, But.
I I wondered if people felt like they had more license to say things. People would say things to me where I was like, oh, I would never say that to my boss, but maybe you feel like you can say that to me because I've said that about me.
Well, this is the problem that you set up. So let's imagine that you're Anthony Albanesi and you're running a cabinet, right and you go and you're like, it's our first day and we've all got to make sure we trust each other. So you open with like, actually, I don't know anything about the economy. I'm not saying that's true, but I'm like, so thank god I've got you, you know, Chancellor whatever, treasure Chancellor. I'm now in Britain Answer of the Exchequer anyway, so thank god that I have got
my treasurer right. And that does not work. It doesn't work. You have to pretend that you have no weaknesses, that you know everything. But imagine that. Imagine applying the female self deprecation to a really big male coded.
Job getting up there. I'm a bit of a lazy boy, exactly.
I've got to go and negotiate with like Trump and stuff, but I hate it's going to be super awkward.
It's like, I'm.
So an anagram nine. I don't know what my chart's saying today, Like it doesn't work, Yeah, gotcha. So, although I understand this idea that like good leadership requires some vulnerability, Brene Brown's written a hotcture. Her whole career is based on that fact, right, is that good leaders do allow themselves to be vulnerable. There has to be a point at which it's like inside voice album, yeah, yeah, side voice, you can add up it's okay.
Yeah.
And I want to pour one out, especially for people who are dating listening to this advice, because I think dating is the hardest place to navigate these very complicated dynamics around tumiin overshare, because it's the only time in your life where you've just kind of expected to meet someone who you've never met before, and then start talking about your family dynamics and presumably like your romantic history and your deepest, darkest fears and aspirations for the future,
and then guess what, you may be rejected for sharing all of that.
And you won't know what it was that you share, no that made you reject.
And I think the thing that I found most challenging about my years of dating was that you have a lot of regret about sharing too much. You know that feeling. It gets almost like a hangover. In fact, it's often coinciding with a hangover. Interestingly, maybe there's a correlation there where you feel like you've given too much to this stranger and you feel really icky about ability.
Hangover after the break in the middle of an escalating conflict, Why are there so many headlines about influencers stuck in Dubai among the influx of news stories about the deeply serious escalation of conflict in Iran at the moment and the quickie of course, our news podcast will have all
those developments as they're happening day by day. We kind of wanted to look at this almost strange, peculiar phenomena of all the stories about the influencers who are stranded in Dubai, content creators from all over the world who are now wrestling with what to make of bombs falling on their previously paradise playground.
Right.
I heard this really interesting segment about this on the Rest is Entertainment today and hattiped to them for like putting some context for me around something that I keep seeing all these stories, and I was like, but why are there so many influencers in Dubai. I didn't really know that world existed to the point that it does, and that now those people all have this front seat to this unfolding war and they're kind of being asked to document it, right when usually they're more look at
my shoes and my fancy yacht. A little bit of context, Dubai is known as the influencer capital of the world. I didn't know that, did you guys know that?
I did not.
I didn't, But for a long time I've seen beautiful people in Dubai and wondered, what's the go with that?
Well, the go with that as it turns out. And obviously I'm not going to get deep into immigration law here, but Dbai, I'm sure lots of people know this, and I know that we have a lot of listeners in that part of the world too, So please excuse my simplistic explanation. But obviously do Ubay has a big population of people who are not from there. They say that about ninety two percent of workers in Dubai are not
from Dubai. They're from somewhere else. Lots of diversity within that, both in terms of nationalities and of the level and reward of jobs that those people are doing. Right, on the one hand, there have been ongoing lots of significant human rights concerns about the conditions for a lot of workers in areas like construction who live and work in
this extreme situation. And on the other it's long been a place for white collar so called expats to go and work in areas like finance and tourism and increasingly things like crypto and tech and all of that kind of stuff. So all that's happening, and then in recent years Dubai have actively courted influencers and content creators to come base themselves out of there, make content about what an amazing place it is. They offer these special visas.
They it's something called a ten year Golden visa, which gives you, you know, sort of you can stay there and live there. And most of these visas you just have to prove that you have a bit of a following, you prove what you're going to do, and then you'll pay a small fee. But while you're living and working there, you pay no income tax. So that's why it becomes
such an attractive place. And they've set up like working hubs specifically for digital content creators that will have podcast studios and cameras and all these things, and then people
will work there and so what might happen? And there are some nostronomers in this obviously, but it's a well worn path now for sort of say you were on Love Island, UK and you come out with a significant following, it's an attractive offer to be like, why don't you go and base yourself out of Dubai for a year or two or you know, six months of the year, escape the British winter, make content, don't payny tax banks some money go have and is the main role.
Of those influencers meant to be tourism.
Well, a lot of it is to promote Dubai in itself. They come these visas with a certain see not all of course, but some certain sort of rules around. You have to present the UA in a positive light. You can't criticize the government and that kind of thing. But you might be doing private deals with brands out of there, or you might be doing tourism stuff. And the tone of a lot of this content is I get to live this amazing life in and crucially a safe place.
So for the British influence, there is a very strong vibe of this is like I can walk down the street wearing my sixty thousand dollars rolex and no one's going to mug me for it. Like even while this missiles are falling, now there's a massive British content creator lives there who's posting like even with bombs falling, Dubai is still safeer them walking in London after nine pm,
Like there's this that's a vibe that happens right anyway. Obviously, what has happened as we know, massive instability in the region. Missiles are falling and flights are canceled, and now a certain number of influencers are obviously documenting that and attracting some criticism for doing it. There's an Australian woman called Louise Starky, for example, and she's getting some grief for posting from her apartment balcony you can see a missile
falling and she's taken it down. So that's why we're not going to play it for you. She says, I'm scared. I'm actually so scared, and then she says, it's not meant to be happening here. Can't everyone just chill out? She got a lot of derision for that, and quite a lot of the influence is a copying a fair amount of grief for that. What do we think are we expecting these content creators to suddenly turn into war correspondence.
I mean, the idea of it's not meant to be happening here, that's been accused of kind of being riddled with a lot of entitlement and almost arrogance that it's allowed to happen in the country next door, but it shouldn't be happening to me. I do think what's interesting about the influencer conversation is when the world gets really scary and really complex and there is a conflict of the proportions of which we know we have no control over. I don't have any control over who bombs who, and
that is sickening. I think sometimes looking at influences is the easiest way to prosecute injustice, and so we look at somebody like Louise Staky and we're like, well, I can't have a conversation with Trump about how maybe he should be a bit more careful about starting military action, but I can comment on Louise Darky's post and be like, this is insensitive and you're a monster.
That's so interesting. I think that's true.
I think that why we can't look away from this is because the promise that those influences were made was that they would be in the Middle East, but they actually could have been anywhere. They weren't really in the Middle East. They were kind of in this Disneyland version in the.
Desert of the Middle East.
So one real I saw from one of these influences proudly said she was probably saying that after two years in Jubai, she didn't know anything about Ramadan and it's rituals now nor do I, by the way, But I think the issue is that if you've been living for two years in the United Arab Emirates, you should probably know something about Ramadan.
But that was part of the appeal. They didn't have to know anything.
But that's interesting because I've spent maybe three days in Dubai. I stayed there and I was oblivious and didn't know it was Ramadan at the time because it was a stopover coming back from Europe. And I knew it was Ramadan, like that was in the hotel, that was everywhere. And the thing about being there is that, yes, it feels like you're in Jess and I both said, it feels like a fake world. You go to this.
In fact, there's a fake world of islands some off the coast of Germany.
I'm made like you go to this shopping center and it's the biggest shopping center in the world, and you see the Burj Khalifa, which is the tallest building in the world, and you're blown away by all of this. You're very aware of where you are. I found and I remember when we were landing, I was reading Fifty Shades of Gray, which you mainked.
Because it's very appropriate to that destination.
Well, and the flight attendant tapped me on the shoulder and said, you can't read that here. Yeah, so they definitely are those kind of I don't know those sign posts about where you are there are.
But at the same time, I just want to say that I really feel for all the Australians who are in that region right now, because what is happening is very unprecedented and shocking to a lot of the countries in this region who thought that they were insulated from the dynamics of.
The more hot spot areas.
So you know, I don't think that anyone could have foreseen this future even a week ago. And when I saw on Monday that the US State Department had issued this warning to all Americans in the Middle East, basically the entire Middle East, to leave immediately, my heart sank for all these people because it's not going to be easy for them to leave either. By the way, this
Alien government's advice is more modulated than that. It's it's on the Defact website and it advises people to register with their local consults and embassies and to make plans to leave. But nonetheless, lots of flights are canceled hundreds, even thousands of flights are canceled. There's no real way out. People are trying to plot like overland routes. It is a very scary situation that I don't think anyone could have predicted.
Absolutely, And I think that you're right, Claire, that there is a certain shaden freud we're seeing in the I've seen cartoons of like sort of lots of real housewife looking kind of women trying to get on planes and they're like, do buy evacuation, and it's very sneery and snobby, and it is hard not to look at that very pure do buy influencer space where they are sort of like I get to live on a yacht and where a role like dad without being a bit like oh.
But as to your point, Amelia, there are so many people living there and stuck there who that is not the case for them, not that there's a moral value about whether or not you should be able to be safe. And I just want to tell everybody that if you do want to follow an Australian woman who's living in Dubai, who I've followed for years actually because I interviewed her
a long time ago, and she's really amazing. She's called Jessica Smith, and she's a former paralympian, a swimmer, and she's lived in Dubai for years, and she's got three kids, and she's been posting really interesting, sensible, sensitive stuff about what it's like there at the minute, about the kind of information that Aussies can get about the defact portal that's been opened, Amelia and all those things. So that kind of information coming out of social media is really
useful and interesting and gives you a window. It's not all, you know, sort of very botox ladies screaming on balconies.
At the same time, I can see why there's an interest in the influences because the holy is your original question. You said, do they all have to become citizen war correspondence? No, I don't think they do, but in essence they are. That is what they are. And I have found it really interesting to look at the content that these creators are putting out right now to get a sense of what it feels like on the ground. It's it's almost hard to imagine the scope of.
It, guys.
An article in Sydney Morning Herald by Stacy Collino has made me feel intense shame and I need some emotional support. So it goes through the household items you really need to replace, and everyone comes across these articles every few months and I don't know, I meant to clean my pillow case like once a week or something like. No, it's not happening.
But this was.
It was divided into like rooms in your house. But the section that really struck me was about your kitchen. So about sponges. Apparently, perpetually damp sponges are breeding grounds for bacteria. Who would have known, and they get to really high numbers within three to four days, and you can beautiful days. I know.
I'm so glad that you said perpetually damp and not moist.
Perpetually that's what they are. I didn't know this. But you can disinfect them by putting them in the microwave for thirty seconds.
Yep, So disclosure in the oversharing department. I've discussed this lately about how many pairs of pounds you packed to go on holiday, blah blah blah, But how long do you reckon a sponge lives on your sink. We're talking about the ones with like the brillowpad on top right and the yellow underneath.
It's all based on smell.
Grossing to admit, but often you'll be at the sink and you'll be.
Like, You'll be like, oh, if it smells like cleaning product, it's clean, right, So I reckon two weeks. Oh, it's not a long time. It's not really.
Yes, it's a long time. But if your if your sponge is looking pristine, I'm backing it. I merely he's not going to share. She's a very proud I know, don't think.
I know.
It's probably longer than two weeks.
Apparently you can also put them through the dishwasher.
You know, I never think of these, It's just was here. She would be like landfill sustainability. Definitely keep reusing your sponges. And I am terrible in that. Brent will use it and use it, use it till it falls apart. And I don't think that man is putting it in the microwave.
We've talked about Brent cutting the Brent. It's just a depression.
He will use it until it falls apart. I just see them and go and throw them in the bin. But now you tell me I can stick them in the microwave.
Absolute hack. You also have to replace mop heads every two to three months. Something I find really interesting about life is when you buy a thing and then you read the instructions for some weird reason and it says that you have to replace a certain part, and I'm like, who's doing that?
Sorry? What what's interesting about?
Like, like, okay, your vacuum cleaner, right, your vacuum cleaner. We got a new vacuum cleaner recently. Huge looked at the instructions and it's like, oh, there's a part of your Oh yeah.
I get what you're saying. It's like, yeah, I got what you're saying. We have I have a water pick, you know that that like cleans in between your teeth, And apparently I got to clean the water pick.
But the water picks for cleaning my teeth, that doesn't make any sense. And it's always vinegar vinegar.
Or like baking pals, soda, baking soda, And I'm like, who just has that in their cupboard?
Such domestic I know.
But also if you're cutting board has lots of cuts or scratches, apparently it's time to replace it because those indentations harbor bacteria that can make you listen bacteria not now, I know, But what I want to know is, like I'm picturing myself standing in my kitchen, which is also my laund room and the mental load of thinking about what's in all those cupboards. Do people keep lists or schedules or timelines about like in six months, I have
to replace that, that mop in this I have to replace. Like, I don't know how you know what people do.
There's a whole type of person who as the kettle is boiling, they do all the stuff.
That's the whole type of person.
Yeah, so they're like, unload the dishwasher, replaced the sponge poppet in the microwave, do some squats, and like then the kettle's boiled.
Yeah, and they're like so productive.
I'll just order that part of that.
It's better than just staring off into middle distance having existential fears.
Right, Oh no doing that. I just stare out the window until the kettle tells me it's done.
It's all economy. I like it. That's all we have time for out Louders on this Wednesday. Thank you so much to Plus Stevens, Emelia Lester, to our amazing team. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow. Actually, Amelia will be back in your ears tomorrow with Mia. What are you talking about tomorrow?
Oh, it's a juicy one. Remember last week we talked about a letter from Vanessa, an out louder who asked for advice on whether she should quit her job to support her husband's very demanding job as they raise children.
That thread and now Louders Facebook, is one of the best threads we've ever had.
I'm just going to say that what Mia says really surprised me. I was not expecting it.
Okay, that's going to be on the subscriber show. A massive thanks to our incredible team for helping us put the show together and look, Ruth divine our exceptional group EP. She tried to get away with us, not knowing it was her birthday. Oh but out Louders, I know you would want us to make a fuss of her on her special day because she's amazing and she keeps us all running. So happy birthday, Ruth from us and all of the out Louders.
Have the best day.
Ah Mamma.
Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.