Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the eleventh of May. I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Klass Stevens. I'm Amelia Last And here's what's made our agenda for today. What happened in Australia on the weekend that has made every sitting politician have a little bit of a nervous.
Week Plus some people are liked by everyone they meet. This is what they all do.
And are you a time optimist? Holly and Claire Art and I want to find out how their brain works.
But first look, I don't know about you too, but my algorithm was hijacked on the weekend by men dancing in short shorts.
You're the one who introduced me to this. You're the one who triggered my algorithm with your story of Harry Styles in these little shorts.
Oh my goodness, which was good because look, the global anxiety ain't getting any better, right, There's a lot of stuff going on out there. And enter one Harry Styles, who has released I think it's the third video from his new album. Now Harry is in a little bit of trouble at the minute because his concert tickets are really really expensive and they're not selling quite as well
as one would hope. But he knew how to counteract this negative commentary, get the short shorts on release a video that is literally just you thrusting in a very pleasing, choreographed manner to a thirsty, thirsty crowd, which is what he did. Here is a little bit of the morale boosting Harry Styles video. Then next flick to next slide on my social media speed Taron Edgerton. Do you know who he is? I do?
What's he been in Okay sing for a start, so anyone with small children knows exactly who Taron Egerton is.
An animated animal that.
Can you play Elton John that. I fell in love with him. I thought he was great in that.
He's just so charming and talented. He's kind of like a Welshoe Jackman.
He is rumored to be the next bond him and a Lordie duking it out to be. But anyway, he is also all over your feed dancing in short shorts because he's promoting this movie that's on Netflix called Apex. Yes, the way to get people to watch this movie is to dance in short shorts. I fell for this, watched this movie on the weekend.
It's not good, so I was curious because it was filmed in the Blue Mountains. It has Charlie's Sarron, who I also love. Why is it not good?
So it's a horror movie that isn't quite a horror movie, and it's a thriller that isn't quite a thriller. But it has an excellent promotional hook, and that is that Taran who plays Psycho.
In it, not that'sycho, which is a bit of a red flat.
It's not in the trailer he has revealed to be a psycho, so it's not a spoiler that he's a psycho. But he does this thing where his Charlie's Theron is there and he gets a big speaker out and he goes, you've got until this end of this song to get as far away from me as possible.
Which is a good promise, if not a particularly realistic one.
It's like how the Killer.
And movies is always like I'm going to explain what I'm going to do to you at length.
And give you an opportunity to get away.
And so Tarana did impress his play and dances a lot.
And it's like dark punk weird.
It's a really weird dance and everyone's doing it on TikTok.
Every bone's doing and.
I did you see this movie?
Now?
I'm sorry, I know you say it isn't good.
Don't watch the movie. Just watch that bit. The movie is disturbing.
Can even play a bad guy? He's such a good guy.
He's really bad in it.
But anyway, but he's got an ass. The accent is the Aussie accent bad?
No, the ass accent is good, okay, but the reflection of Ozsie men in general is bad. Everybody Shallie's bumps into wants to do bad things to her. Sort of lots of outback cliches. But anyway, I digress. The way that Taran has been promoting this on Instagram is that he is doing that doing his dance in Little Short.
Do you think he ever thinks to himself, Clark Gabill never had to do this?
I reckon he does. But then I think he thinks this is where we're living now, this is where I live. So the Short Shorts is back and I'm not mad about it. And then, just to confirm my status as the most Basic of Bitch's Mega brand ads launched their World Cup ad. It's about to be the Football World Cup. Soccer Worlds to you people, but football.
To me.
It's going to be in Mexico. It's going to be America for World Cup, TM for World Cup sponsored by ADM starting for Timothy Shallo May because some of my basic obsessions also invaded this ad. That's a short film because I don't know there are no starving people in the world. Whatever they needed to spend one hundred and twenty million dollars on their at but it's got Challi May, Bad Bunny, close personal friend of mine, a young David Beckham and.
It relies a young David.
So the AI in a like mohawk era David Beckham because it's got all nineties nostalgia.
Wreake me up when they do this with the Spice girls.
Well they will, but what is it about the men in the shorts.
It's just so sexy and it's so distracting and it's so wholesome. And on the weekend I was I was sitting at brunch and one person was like, how about the UFOs? And I was like, this is one of those moments where you see where everyone's algorithm is. Because you're talking about mine. I was like, not looking at the UFOs, I'm looking at some red little shorties, and I'm looking at Harry Styles doing a sexy little dance and it's just oh.
It's the gender fluidity of it. It's the hm. I just really like it.
But anyway, I don't care because Trump might have released the UFO files had it has released Bad Bunny. So speaking of things that some of us may need to be distracted from, you might be seeing headlines around today and yesterday that say things like Pauline Nation, Orange Country, Hanson's House, a political earthquake has rocked Australian politics. All of these superlatives are about what happened in Australia on
the weekend. The results of a by election in regional New South Wales have It isn't an overstatement to say this changed the political landscape so Farah is an area of New South Wales, like an electorate in New South Wales that is roughly the size of South Career. Now, everyone keeps saying that, and I'll actually know how big South Career is, but it sounds big.
It just reminds you how big Australia is.
It really does. So it's a very big electorate. It has less than two hundred thousand people in it. It was Susan Lee's electorate, so the woman who until quite recently was the leader of the Liberal Party and who resigned, and when she resigned, she also resigned as an MP, so triggering a by election up for grabs. One Nation won the by election a man called David Farley. He is the first One Nation candidate elected into the Lower House.
And if you're going but hold on Pauline Barnaby. So Pauline Hanson was elected in nineteen ninety six, but she was an independent and she didn't form One Nation till ninety seven, so she wasn't elected as a one Nation MP. Similarly, Barnaby Joyce now one of the most high profile One Nation faces. But of course, until very recently a natch a national right. So this is the first time that a one Nation MP has run and been elected to the Lower House One Nation MP. Right, And there's the
reason why everybody's really nervous. The reason I say nervous is not necessarily obviously, if you're a one Nation support you're not nervous. You're excited about this, but the establishment is nervous because this is believed to be the first sign that things are really shifting in terms of what
one nation can do to the right leaning politics. Here is a little grab of what Pauline Hansen said in Farah on Saturday night when she came up along with Barnaby to congratulate David Farley and take the seat.
This is not only wind, It's a win for the rest of Australia. I'm seeing the sea of these proud Australian spaces here in front of me, hundreds of you, but millions are watching on in TVs now and I believe it's giving them hope to people to represent you, the people to get out country back.
Now.
The thing that's interesting about this, you will have heard her say get your country back. You will have heard her, you know, make her claim there that lots of Australians
will be excited. This is exactly what's got a lot of people nervous because ever since Pauline Hanson went into Parliament ninety six and made her famous maiden speech where she said that Australia was being swamped by Asians, she and One Nation have on and off for thirty years now, been dismissed a lot of times as a joke, as an extremist fringe, and it seems like this is the moment they go mainstream.
And it took thirty years.
Took thirty years.
And what is also interesting is that Farah has been a safe coalition seat for like eighty years.
Labor didn't even stand.
The Labor I didn't have a candidate, which I think is.
They know it's a conservative scene, but they didn't necessarily well, it's been obvious during this campaign that it was going to be a prime one nation pick. The thing that has people nervous about this being a one nation moment is that they've got serious funding One Nation now in the form of Gina Rehnhart, who we know has bought Pauline the plane that she is flying around very prominently in.
They've got a very experienced politician on the books. Whatever you think about Barnaby Joyce, that man knows how politics works. He has been Deputy.
Planned to know how pavements work.
Now he doesn't know how he has been deputy Prime minister. He's only fifty nine. Like he understands the establishment so they have got a level of legitimacy, and they also have an electorate who is broadly very pissed off with the status quo Amelia. This feels to me like a trend to be taken very seriously if you look at what's happening in the UK, what has happened in America?
What's your prim because something crazy happened in the UK, right, yes.
So very very quickly over the weekend in the UK there was national council elections, so these are elections to elect your local representatives, like literal council seats all over the country and actually in Wales and Scotland as well. And what happened in that is that Labor, who are the sitting government, have lost more than a thousand councils. A lot is insane because they won, not unlike mister Albanesi, which might be why also he's a little nervous today.
Not unlike the Australian Labor Party. The British Labor Party won in a landslide victory in the last election, which was less than two years ago. Right, but now have such an unpopular prime minister that there is broad talk he's not going to make it to the next election and reform. Who are basically Britain's one nation if you like. The far right Populist Party have taken more than a
thousand seats in this election. Nigel Faraj, who is their leader, who again, like Pauline not to labor a comparison seen as a joke for a lot of years, is tipped to be the next legitimate Prime Minister of Britain. So no, really really, I mean a lot of experts so that won't happen and they will never win the seats that were always going to be firmly remain. But he is at the moment in the polls preferred PM. So this is the trend we're seeing around Europe. We've obviously seen
what happened with trump Ism in America. It seems like a moment to be taken very seriously and not dismissed as something strange that happened in the regions. What do you say, Yeah, no.
I think that's absolutely right.
I was really interested to read and hear from one Nation voters in parah as to why they made this shift, because this is what happened, There was a shift towards one nation. What made them move and Rob Harris did some particular good reporting on this in the Nine Newspapers. A quote which stuck with me from this was someone said to Rob, we don't have any good politicians, so
people are just saying F the lot of views. I think, and when I try and summarize the last decade of politics in Western democracies, I think F the lot of you is kind of a good slogan for it, because.
What struck me.
I mean, what's interesting is that the one Nation than now the member for Farah recently ran for the Labor parties. So what's clear is that this is not an ideological shift. I don't even think the term far right applies here. I think it's more people want to burn everything down and they are justifiably angry. You know. I read in the newspapers today that Australian inequality has now widened to
a sort of unprecedented degree. The budget this week is going to address housing affordability, we're told, because that's become a huge problem for young people. There are lots of reasons to feel really angry, and there is a sense that the major parties have just been in denial about that sentiment.
In the electorate.
I get it, and obviously I'm not even speaking from a regional perspective, and those trends of inequality, lack of access to services the general and certification of our economy, these are trends being felt even more acutely in the regions.
There's a really clever expert on polling data called Cause and I've been reading a lot of his analysis over what happened over the weekend, and he said the towns that swung the hardest to one nation were the ones
that had a climbing median age. It's a little bit older, wealth going backwards, population shrinking, local economies and small businesses in decline, and that is something that just kind of wasn't addressed by other parties, whereas one nation was willing to acknowledge those issues and put a scapegoat in place
for why those issues might exist. But Holly, I want to challenge what you're saying about Australia going in the same direction as the UK, because I do think it's really important to acknowledge that while there is this swing, the swing currently for one nation only exists against the Liberal National Party the because what's interesting is that Barnaby Joyce. After this, there's a clip of him saying Western Sydney,
here we come. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no no. And when you kind of really break down the polling data this Cosmarus does the most clever analysis where he's like, it's just not going to happen because there's a demographic wall. Where as soon as you get to Western Sydney, say, the makeup of that demographic is literally what one nation is running against.
Now, as soon as you.
Get to anybody, all the polling shows, as soon as you get to people who were not born in Australia, people who speak a language other than English at home, they are not their voting labor.
I am not conventional wisdom. I think there are no rules anymore. Like that's certainly something that could have been said with certainty again ten years ago. But if you look at who really voted for Trump, who shifted to Trump in the latest selection in the US, I'm not saying that the countries are the same.
I'm just pointing out an interesting data point.
It was, in fact, people who were first generation migrants to the US who really shifted to vote for Trump. Now, you might think that's strange given that he also was not a fan of immigration.
I just think it's an era of no rules.
I think though, that those people who might be in their thirties or forties and are the parent are the children of people who immigrated to Australia. They remember Pauline Hanson in the nineties.
They remember.
You don't have to go back to the nineties, right, So it isn't that long ago that Pauline Hanson said that there were no good Muslims, for example. There is no question that she still is sticking to a lot of that outrageous rhetoric. But the thing is that's happening because I mean, I don't disagree with your point, but the thing it's a it's not great if the cities and the regions are completely ideologically separated, and it doesn't
really work that way. The suburbs are massive and strolling like Australia is a diverse country, but it's still got this very traditional heartland. What are the things that one nation are running on a lot and so other liberals is that this is a rotten government, get us out of here. If people are broadly disaffected, then they blame the people in charge that's why all the COVID governments
got thrown out. And it's complicated to a point. But what I think you're seeing with this mainstreaming of one nation is every little win that they make makes them more legitimate. They will pull themselves into line a little bit. In Pauline Hanson's speech on Saturday night, she said I'm not anti immigration, I'm just pro Australia, you know, all
of that kind of stuff. They'll pull themselves into line a little bit on the most extreme parts of their conversation, and you're going to see a vote, which is what I think was echoed a lot by someone who was saying I'm not racist, but I vote one nation or in the same way that people do with Donald Trump. They excuse the craziness, they excuse, oh, he doesn't really
mean it, all of those things. What you see often in populous leaders, this is true of Nigel Farage as well, is they're kind of covered like and Barnaby Joyce is Australia's version of this, and he always has been. They're covered like entertaining buffoons rather than anything more sinister. And so what I'm saying is I'm not suggesting that there's
a you know, again, depending on your ideological point. I'm not suggesting that there's going to be a landslide that way, but I'm suggesting we take it very seriously and anyone who isn't a fan of that side of politics shouldn't dismiss this as either a regional issue, because people in regional Australia do get very jacked off with always being treated like second class citizens, no question, and also treat it not as some kind of jokey extremist aberration but
actually something that is happening around the world that we should take as seriously as anyone.
It's interesting that Pauline Hanson has revealed that she's considering moving from the Senate to the House of Representatives of the next federal election. I remember you said to me a few months ago, Holly, that you thought that Pauline Hanson had a decent shot at being prime minister. And of course you have to be in the House of Representatives to be prime minister. So shall we listen to her talk about That.
Is under consideration, No decisions have been made, but still two years outside the election, so it is under consideration.
I do think that, but I also think not that I want to sit around making predictions. Barnaby may actually be Pauline Hanson. As we were just saying thirty years she's seventy one years old, is she? Which is amazing because she's like the energy on the woman, right, whatever you think about her, the energy on the woman. Barnaby Joyce is only fifty nine. And I think that he is a political opportunist. He can speak to non city centric Australians in a way that nobody else is. He's
a man, he has a big hat. I think I am genuinely. I just think that no political party should take this, should take their position for granted that Australia, just like Britain, just like America, with these two sides, it's not like that anymore. What they're seeing in that UK election is the vote splitting five six parties. So I think Australia that may well be something that we're
seeing here too. I just think that, you know, sometimes we may have been quite complacent in Australia about falling into the sort of more extreme corners of politics because we've got compulsory voting. I know I've said that many times that we don't have to work quite so hard to enrage and engage the electric to get them out. But I think there is a complacency in that that we might be seeing chipping away.
After the break. Are you a time optimist? Meryl Streep is in herf era, and I for one am here for it because she has now taken on a personal bugbear of mine. In an interview with Vanity Fair, she revealed Goldie Horn was constantly late just set when the two of them were filming Death Becomes Her. Here is a clip of Meryll talking about it, and then Goldie responding on the red carpet.
Yeah, so I had a beef with her. What do you remember?
Marilyn got fifteen minutes later to everything I do. I mean, honestly, it's unbelievable, but I think we got through that. I mean, we've been such good friends for so long. It says so, but this is her joke. So she said I was too late on the set. Maybe she's too early. I don't know. You know, sometimes when you're too early, you're still waiting for somebody who think, oh God, where the hell is Goldie.
I can't believe she says that maybe she's too early. This is a problem with late people, they pass along the problem to early people. Holly Hudson and The Guardian wrote rather delightfully that you know how in that clip Goldie says that she's like, yeahen minutes late to everything. She was like, that's like when the doctor asks you how much you drink, Like you just have to multiply it.
Fifteen minutes is not accurate, and poll references a Swedish term for the chronically late, which is actually far too nice for them, and that term is time optimists. These are people who believe a half hour journey can be made in fifteen minutes. Oh, these are people who believe that a bag for a weekend trip can be packed in five minutes when it actually takes twenty.
Yeah, you're both nodding.
Claire, is time optimist a helpful label for you to explain why you are always late?
Is that what's going on inside your head?
Yes?
Help me to understand it.
Makes me feel a lot better about it, because I'm not an optimist about anything, and so thinking that I might be an optimist when it comes to time is lovely. In that article, the author wrote, would they manage to be on time for a date with Harry Styles exactly.
And my answer to that is genuinely.
No, genuinely no.
It's almost like the more important something is the later it. So I read an article literally ten years ago that explained myself to me, and it actually started out with the idea of time optimism, and it's by Tim urban Weight but why it's my favorite blog of all time.
But he kind of expresses the time optimism idea at the beginning and tries to be like, yeah, maybe I'm just really optimistic, and then he's like, now, let's be honest, I'm insane, and he breaks down the fact that he calls himself a chronically late insane person a clip a clip, and so he's like, there's okay lateness and not okay lateness.
I agree with this.
He's like, I fall into not okay lateness. And he's like, there are those who don't feel bad about it, and there are those who have self loathing. I have self loathing. That makes you a chronically late insane person and that's me.
But isn't that okay lateness and not okay lateness? That is a situation specific? Because I believe that I believe there are things it's okay to be late for and things. It's not okay to be like it is ok to be late for high So I am a late person, but I'm selectively late. I'm rarely late for work, and I'm really true for this record.
Would you be late to a date with Harry Styles?
Of course not.
Holy's like I've got my priorities.
Maybe is not equipped there, She's not chronically.
But you're not insane.
I think in my other areas of my life, we are always fifteen minutes late. And my daughter, who is sixteen now, has internalized this and says to me all the time, we are always late for everything, and she hates it, right, and I try really hard to not be, but I just can't.
Can I tell you the good news?
Because your daughter is like that, she is going to be a punctual person in her whole life.
She as a result, she probably is. But this is my defense. Okay, lateness. Here's an example. Right, I am meeting for We're meeting for drinks at seven, dinner at
seven point thirty, I'm leaving. I won't leave the office till six thirty, even though I know it will take at least twenty five minutes depending on traffic, and I'm not ready yet, because any time between seven and seven fifteen is fine in that situation because you're in a bar, you've got your phone, you've got a drink, you don't care well, okay, lesness, right, you can order a drink.
We need to go back to the phone after this.
Y Yeah.
If me and my daughter are going to pick up a friend to go shopping and we say ten thirty am, anytime before eleven is fine because she's at home, she's warm, she's fed, she's not It's fine, Like, that's okay lateness in my mind.
I'm not nodding. I want the record to be I'm not nothing.
Am I wrong that that's your lateness.
There is one event to which you were permitted to be late, in fact, to which you were expected to be late, and that is dinner at someone's house. You must arrive seven to fifteen minutes after the desigated time. Definitely not early, and I will literally, because I'm on time everywhere. I will have to walk around the block a couple of times because it feels so wrong to
be seven to fifteen minutes late. But that is what I will do, because that is the one event to which you are allowed to be late.
Why are you so punctual, Amelia?
Because I grew up in a household where we relate to things, and it made me really stressed. So I recognize your daughter's pain. I do want to talk about phones and how they have changed the game a little bit, because I think that for people who are on time, we care less now if people are late. That is my contention because before I used to have to stare into thin air and think about the rise of one
nation instead of just scrolling my phone. Now I can just scroll my phone and I'm not bored, and so I don't care as much if people are late these days.
Yeah, you think that's true.
Have you noticed that people are less annoyed at you these days?
Yeah?
Yeah, And that they might even be like, oh, it's okay, I'll get a little bit of work done, Like they'll like answer some emails. I'm giving you time back. Yes, I'm actually doing a favor here. But I will say as much as like, I am insane. I don't understand how time works. I will never understand how it works. How it just it goes. It goes so fast, it's just amazing. How quickly it goes? For everything?
Always take long?
Agree, then you think it will how every time?
Just take fifteen minutes? Everything takes fifteen every.
Time maps I get in the car and it's like it's going to take twenty minutes, and then next minute twenty eight minutes.
This is on here.
Since you have said that time takes time, I think that's your observation. I have to ask you about another equally obvious thing. Being late is anxiety, as you think, why are you living like that? Why are you not embracing the relaxed pace of someone who is on time?
Yeah, okay, so okay, it's two other things. One is that in the moment reality of I never I never want to stop what I'm doing. So it's actually like the actions.
You're more present, that's what you're saying. You're just simply more present in the moment.
No, it's that like, for example, and I'm finding this more and more like if I have to leave the office, I kind of twiddle around and like, don't I think it's genuinely the transition of leaving.
I don't get that because all I want to do is leave the office and go to the bar to have the seven pm drinks.
I do not understand.
I don't know.
I just kind of like wander around in circles and then But then it's also I think that because I'm always late, this is it. Because I'm always late and I've never known what it's like to not be late, I assume I will be late, and I'm delaying that self loathing, yes, which which is a cycle. So I'm like, oh, I hate turning up late. So what I'll do is I'll procrastinate turning up, which makes me later.
Okay, Okay, so it's insane.
It's completely comment on that blog post that you mentioned that I thought was really interesting, the comment said that late people have to train themselves to trust themselves again because they've kind of like lost faith in their own word. So an example would be like if you say I'm going to get up at six point thirty, but you know that you actually always press the snooze button and actually get up at six forty five, so you kind of don't trust yourself.
Do you think that's part of it?
One hundred percent. I've spoken to my psychologists about this.
It's like self efficacy, like the belief that you can do what you said you were going to do, and it's really depressing when that falls off, like the idea of I'll go to the gym and I'm like, I know I won't.
I never hold my head because.
It's like the self talk is no longer something you believe in.
Yes, but then I think you can structure your life a bit where it's like, I am scared of other people, so I do being accountable to you don't like.
Being in trouble.
I don't like being in trouble.
When you're late, you're in trouble, yeah, a lot. And it's like I have to kind of set my life up where I'm a little.
Bit scared, yeah, right of other people.
Yes, And I will say I reckon, I'm late less now than I used to be because I have genuinely slowed my life down a little bit.
Yeah, from like my twenties.
Your time optimistic, Yeah.
I just I genuinely have a bit more, which sounds sounds crazy because with a toddler, and I think maybe having a toddler being aware that everything really does take three times as long as you think it will because of her, But.
Deeply believe in the optimism bit of it, though I think the late people are generally more she'd be right an they like, isn't that kind of the thing?
Maybe today will be There are some.
Things you cannot be late for. You can't be late for job interviews, you cannot be late for weddings. You cannot be late for you know something very specific, A friends ask you to support them at a medical appointment, Like, obviously you can't be late for those things. But I don't the people, the punctual people who just say all lateness is selfish. I can't subscribe to that.
Can we talk a little bit about how you notify people of your lateness, because that's changed a bit with phones too, So some punctual people say, I don't care how late you are, as long as you keep me in the loop.
I am not one of those people.
I do not want to hear like the like status checks every five minutes, of the fact that the traffic is so bad and the fact that you couldn't find your shoe. I don't want to know. I just want to sit there in peace until you arrive. But but there's two camps, so do you find yourself having to navigate those two camps?
I'm the same I don't want the update. I was having lunch with friends on Saturday and Jesse just went to the wrong venue and she was sending all these updates and I was like, I'm busy because I'm here, I don't and.
Got the bus to the wrong place. I thought we were going here, just arrived.
We're we're not checking in on your messages. I have a specific kind of time blindness where once i'm late, I can't look anymore at the time day. So you know, like say I said I was going to meet you at seven, and I stuck on the bus and it's traffic, and now it could be seventh, there could be seven, ten, it could be seven to twenty five. I'm like, I'm just going to be like, I can't look.
So you're not telling them, You're not giving them the status update.
Just all I'm going to say, and this I know none of this covers me in glory, is don't believe whatever status update I give you. So if my message is say five minutes, just know it's at least fifty because I'm going to be optimistic and I'm also going to lie to your face because I don't want to upset you. And then once I'm stuck on the bus and it's in traffic, I can't make it. That's the point of looking at the time. That's the way I feel about.
It after the break. Some people are liked by everyone. They and their names.
Are hollyway right, stop it, and this is apparently why.
You're going to create a backlash.
I came across an Instagram carousel last week and my thumb stopped immediately because it read some people are liked by everyone they meet. Researchers found out the one thing they all do, and I was like, cool, easy, I'll just solve this lifelong problem in an Instagram carousel, which is how I feel about most of my time on social media. Now, before I explain this in Layman's terms, I should probably give appropriate citation for those following along
at home. This is based on a research study called Deconstructing the Rain of Error. Interpersonal warmth explains the self fulfilling prophecy of anticipated acceptance.
You know, the academics were so pleased.
I know Rain of error and everyone's like, what do you just do? It doesn't make any sense. But this is why we need Instagram carousels, because that is just a clunky title. Now, before I explain this in Layman's terms, I should probably give an appropriate citation. This is based on a research study called Deconstructing the Rain of Error. Interpersonal warmth explains the self fulfilling prophecy of anticipated acceptance by Stinson et al. In the Personality and Social Psychology bulletin.
Does it say something about why everybody doesn't like you? That you had to give us all those citations before you start?
Yes, because I'm like, there will be somebody listening who's like, I have a degree in psychology, and I think that you might be misrepresented.
And also also I just need to also clarify that I don't think that.
I should also hasten to add that I don't think that the secret to everyone liking you as being on time. Meryl Street was correct when she described herself as annoying.
For me, it's not particularly warmth, which.
So apparently people's expectations of acceptance often come to create the acceptance or rejection that they anticipate.
Well, tell me what, let me explain that.
So these researchers ran two separate studies, and again for those scientific people following along at home, one was correlational, but one was an experiment, so we've got the both the best of both worlds. So study one, their participants had to film a video introduction for a group. It's a pretty daunting thing to do, and when you get on a zoom and you're like, everyone hates my face.
I hate my face.
But those observers rated things like their confidence and their warmth and whether they actually liked them and in how.
Mortifyed I know.
And in that correlational study, warmth was the biggest predictor.
Because that's not easy through the screen warmps.
Isn't this basically what we do three times a week?
Yeah, damn yeah, screens.
So it wasn't it wasn't their confidence, it wasn't their mood, it wasn't kind of their energy.
It was warmth.
And then in study two single men had a face to face interaction with a woman and it was filmed and half those men were given a little queue beforehand that basically lowered the risk of rejection, so it warmed them up.
So it might have been something.
Like, oh, she likes guys like you or whatever, like something that was just a bit of you.
Yeah, something like that.
Observers then watched these interactions and rated how likable the guy was and men who expected rejection, Men who hadn't been primed with anything nice were seen to be colder and they were less liked.
Yeah, that makes sense observers.
Whereas men who had received a bit of a queue to reduce the risk of rejection were warmer and better liked. So the researchers explain that when people feel uncertain about whether they'll be accepted, they kind of pull back.
On that warmth.
It's preemptive, yes, to minimize the potential rejection, because it's.
Basically if you think, if you walk around thinking people are going to like you, you're going to be warmer.
Yes.
And if you walk around thinking that people are going to have a problem with you, you're going to give off more reserved cold energy.
Yes.
And the important part of the design of this study, Holly, is that that people some people are warm. It's not though. It's something that can be manipulated. So if I say to you Amelia, say she actually thinks you're really cool, Hollie, and she really likes you, You're going to be more likable to a million one hundred. If I say Amelia was bitching about you in the list this morning, you're going to be colder.
So it's something that we can all it's.
A switch like you're not born with it, yeah.
Which I really like.
But this see to me, that explains I mean, it illustrates a lot because people who generally are really good with people in inverted commas and go around the world being good with people. There is an element of privilege that they've got where people generally like them, right, and so they go into every situation thinking this will be fine, and that there's a whole lot of reasons in your life that that will will or won't be true, right that are very complicated. Like my mum always used to say,
you should always be happy to see your kids. That was her only parenting rule. Really, it's like every time you see them from when they're a little baby till when they're fifty, smile, look happy to see them. Now, that's a very good piece of advice, easier to pull off for some people than other, depending on your life stresses. But I reckon the people who are walking into rooms going like I'm here are the people who probably their mum was always happy to see them, Like it's privilege.
It's privilege in a way, or they're very good at faking it, and I reckon it's You're right, I reckon it comes from self esteem as you grow up, like just generally thinking that you're a worthy person.
The other thing I thought about a lot with this.
Is physical attractiveness, because I'm like, if you grow up beautiful, you probably get so much nice feedback that you then assume people are going to like you, and then because you assume they will, then they do.
But that does that mean, like are you saying that, like, do you think every supermodel is incredibly warm? I'm not sure that's no. In fact, that's famously not true.
No, but I think there is something, you know, how like they always say, like people who are physically attractive freaking and all.
Of that stuff. I think it probably is.
But I'm not pulling out a tiny violin for Kia Gerber here, but it probably it would change the way people related to you in lots of different ways, and they would not all be positive because people they call to you, Yeah, people, people would win famously And this isn't true, but it's a stereotype that women don't like pretty women. Also, they might see them as a threat. Also, men might see you and again this is stereotypically, but
you could be they might be more predatory towards you. So, although there is truth to that, I don't think it could be like it's probably more are you okay looking like whatever your culture deems unoffensive? Yes, which again plays into that part of like, you know a lot of this you wouldn't have anything to do with, do you reckon? There are tricks that anyone could do to make them seem warmer to people. If that's indeed what your aim.
Is, well, I mean I think that's a question for you, hollyween right, because every time we do any kind of thing on the podcast about like your favorite host or which told you are doing this, it's not exactly that. But there was a personality There was a personality test that was like which one of you and everyone wanted to be Holly and Jesse and Maya cried about it for months and at the live show.
Just think it's because I'm threatened. No, that's what it is, show that person.
I have one practical tip. I once met the founder of aop guy.
He's a Melbourneian.
We had a coffee once and to this day, I have never met someone who smells so good. And it wasn't just poper mint before the coffee. I don't know what it was, but I said, remember that smell, and I do think someone's smelling nice. Rihanna is another person who is very famous for smelling nice, and she seems very warm. I wonder if like manipulating old factory senses could be a sort of short to likability, because you want to be around people who smell nice, and.
It probably makes you you going into a social situation being like, I know I smell nice.
Yes, that must be really nice.
Yes, I think I like. I don't mind a bit of aloofness. I quite like a bit of win me over when I meet someone. But what I hate the snobbery and I reckon you can tell there's a little bit of.
Like.
I've always impressed by people who who don't immediately because fake warmth is worse than cold, Like fake warmth is. The worst thing is people who are like Hay and they've never met you in all of those kind of things. But then people who are I think you can read quite quickly whether somebody is trying to assess whether or not they have to be nice to you, and that is my snobbery radar. So they're kind of going, do you seem important? Do you seem to is there something
you could do for me? And I don't want a stereotype, but men in management positions are very good at this when you kind of you talk to them and you can tell that they are trying to get in the first few questions they ask you, they're trying to decide whether you're worthy of their warmth. The worst genuinely warm people are warm to everybody right and until you prove them, until you give them reason to.
Not be And it's so true that you have to kind of short circuit the rejection part of your brain. So there was another study recently that I remember. The headline in the Atlantic was if you actually was in box, if you invite everyone to everything, you will be happier.
And that was such a revelation for me because I'm not naturally someone who invites everyone to everything, but I'm married to someone who invites everyone to everything, and it's astonishing what happens because sometimes they do get rejected, like sometimes people are weird, Like it's not always the case that if you're warmed to someone, they will be warm.
Give me an example of when you should invite everybody to everything like that, where.
Well, what I've seen happen is my husband invites everyone to everything, and most people are kind of surprised and delighted and like they're like, sure, I'll come to dinner.
I don't really know you, but that sounds really nice.
Then there's this small percentage of people who will respond weirdly and he will be like, I don't know you, I'm not coming to dinner, you know, and like, instead of being completely discombobulated by that and going to cry in a corner, he just moves on.
Yeah. Yeah, that's like my husband.
He's gotten very into that lately, where he'll have birthday drinks and just invite everyone and be like and everyone, bring everyone, and he'll plan a holiday and invite.
Everyth and then he doesn't obsess about it, right, he doesn't have the birthday drinks and note very carefully who do not show, and then create a little voodoo dole.
Of them for the next six months.
And what that has taught me generally is you're right.
There will be people are who are like no, and you're like, yeah, they're not my kind of people. But broadly, people are incredibly happy to be invited, and you realize ninety percent of someone liking you is them feeling like you like them.
Yeah, as soon as you.
As and I find it in professional context, sometimes you sort of see someone you're like, uh, do you hate me for reasons I haven't quite worked out yet, Like I don't know, I don't know, did I say something or write something at some point that was stupid whatever.
And as soon as you get a little hint that maybe that they are warm and that they do or somebody will say, oh I really liked this thing that you wrote or whatever, you're like, oh, amazing, And then it's this reciprocity of I like you because you like me. I like you because you don't hate me. And so I tried it. I try to go into social situations and because it's true, I think I pretty much like everybody.
But here's an example of like how it's actually quite hard to do in practice when you have a group exercise class. So this group of people has been thrown into a room together and they don't know each other, and I can think about being in a group exercise class where there is a woman like this.
It's not just men.
We should say that because we're all doing about our husband's being like this, But there are women who are like this too. Yeah, and they just say hello to everyone who comes in, and they have a witty repartee with the instructor, and then at the end of the class they say, doing.
Anything fun for the rest of your weekend.
And I'm like looking at them, like, I don't know you, but there's a confidence to those people.
I love those people, and you're right.
It's like and then you think, going through the world like that, you must attract so much.
It reminds me a bit about the mayor walks that we talked about Mayo R. I got a lot of feedback on that episode that people thought we were talking about horses mayors that we're talking about like people who run counsels who just got voted out in England if they were labor. So mayor walks are when you just walk around your neighborhood and you just act like the local mayor. And I've been trying to do that more.
On the bus, I try and like get up my courage and I say good morning to the bus driver and that is should not be scary, but it is a little bit scary, and invariably they say good morning back.
But you do think in terms of certain celebrities I guess have been painted as being cold or unlikable or whatever, it must be really hard to go through the world.
I look at poor Megan.
And I'm like, it would be really hard to meet somebody and shake their hand and know that they have been swimming in the swamp of negativity and characters.
We've talked about it a lot like likability over indexes in importance for public facing females. Yeah, I don't like her. It's something you hear all the time about from women as well as manager. I just don't like her. I don't know what it is. I just don't like her. And that's a damning. They're done. They're dead to you, and it doesn't really matter what they do, because if you've made that decision, everything they do then looks like a try hard, fake attempt to win you back, and it's nonsense.
And there was a really interesting comment on this post where a woman wrote, women often withdraw warmth as a protective mechanism because they've had scary interactions or in a way that men may not have had scary interactions with women.
So if you've if you have been warm and it's and it's burnt you in that, perhaps somebody then didn't respect your boundaries, or you had a horrific experience with another human being, then you may not be as willing to put that forward, and that may come across as coldness when it's actually.
That's why I'll share a lot of dudes say stuck up, aren't you when what they mean is not putting up with my shit exactly?
Holy do you think just to wrap it up here? Because I want to know how I can.
Be more warm like you?
Yeah?
I think that.
Because I do think I'm more kind of like blue cheese if I was a person, I'm blue chee.
You're a cat.
But that's a good thing.
That's a good thing.
Do you actually consciously think when you meet someone you you're just like, yeah, you'll probably like me, Like, is that what's sort of going through your house?
Not what kind of monster would I be if I marched around the world doing that? Of course I don't. I just genuinely think, like I've probably through my life, haven't we all that if you're nice to people, generally they'll be nice to you.
Like that.
It doesn't I don't have to like I don't want to sound like a dickhead, but I don't have to think about saying hello to the bus.
No, that's you nice to people. And time is time.
That's what we really really need. And dancing in short shorts, yeah, really helps to get people to like you. Out louders, thank you for being here with us on our Monday show. For dancing in short shorts with us, we appreciate you. If you would like to show us how much you love us, we would love it if you would vote for us in the Australian Audio Awards. You have until midnight on Thursday to vote for us in the People's Choice and we will put a link in the show notes of how to do it.
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