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Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Before we get into today's show, we couldn't not mention the images that were sure that you've seen everywhere over the weekend, incredibly distressing of mothers and ghasa holding their starving children. Prime Minister Anthony Alberanezi described in a statement on Friday that Israel's denial of aid was helping cause this, and the images will undoubtedly have impacted you as much as they have us.
There are, of course, there are accounts from medics and aid workers and civilians on the ground that are facing this starvation, and I think that it upsets the moral fiber of every human being. And I'm sure I'm with so many out louders who who feel I just can't think of another word other than heartbroken that hungry people
cannot get access to the food that they need. You know, we've spoken on the show before about the last two years, this level of helplessness in the face of what feels like such urgency to some of the most vulnerable, vulnerable people.
To stay up to date with the unfolding tragic events in Gaza and the international reaction to it, including here in Australia. Please listen to Momammia's twice daily news podcast, The Quickie, and if you want to donate to the AID agencies who are still operating on the ground in Gaza. If you feel as helpless and as hopeless and as devastated as we all do, there are still AID agencies who are on the ground trying to get food and
aid to civilians in an incredibly difficult, hostile environment. I mean people have been killed trying to access aid, which is just so shocking. We have put links to these organizations, which include UNISEF, the World's Central Kitchen and Doctors Without Borders in our show notes.
Hello, and welcome to MoMA. Me are out loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the twenty eighth of July. My name is Holly Wainwright.
My name's Mia Friedman.
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
And here's what's on our agenda for today. The argument Australia had this weekend. Yes, we've got some very big feelings about Triple J's Hottest one hundred of all time.
Plus Gwyneth Paltrow has been paid millions of dollars to insert herself into the Coldplay couple cheating scandal. Meanwhile, Harry Styles wants you to insert the new sex toy he's just launched. But I have some questions about where Zachery you're meant to insert it.
And the app that has given way to a very thorny, very uncomfortable debate about dating privacy and what on earth is going on between men and women right now.
My place, like homes all over the nation, was a house on Saturday night. It was a house divided as we listened as a family and then as a couple to the nation's poll results rolling. I'm talking, of course, about Triple J's hottest one hundred Australian songs of all time.
I completely missed this.
What a great idea, Oh.
So good because they the nation's youth station and it's been the nation's use station for several generations now, which was very much reflected in the list.
I don't know if any youths still listen.
Tell you about the demographic.
I thought it was all people our age.
No, there's double J for that. Oh okay, so there's.
Double J for old people.
They're trying to quarantine the old people. But anyway, as we all know, every year Triple J does the Hottest one hundred. It's a massive pillar, we would say, in the content business for them. And this year they decided to get a midyear bite of that because that's always January, and they decided to do the hottest one hundred Australian songs of all time.
They've done this.
Before, or a version of this, like years ago in the nineties. I remember it.
But it's so clever.
It's so clever. What's interesting is so they say more than two and a half million people voted in this poll.
Oh my goodness, that's a lot of people.
The demographic, the biggest demographic of voters was between eighteen and twenty nine, yep, which is why some of the results are quite interesting.
Holly, I want the top ten, and I want you to go from ten, and I want you to count down and I want are we thinking running commentary as Holly, Yeah, just some thoughts and feelings, Okay, go.
In our house. By the way, we did this where we listened to the actual top five ten like after the fact, and I made Brent guess each one was very cood.
I did did games?
Yep? Yep? Number ten somebody that I used to know by go chikimbro Yes, brilliant, Yes, expected love.
That libiting each of a song.
Please, don't I think people have it been given a second life by Docci obviously, who knows whether or not it would have been as high without her intelle I should know that true give us nine my anxiety.
She exampled it.
How to Make Gravy by Paul Kelly.
Oh I had to make top ten?
Yep? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, Number eight And this is the point I started shouting at Brent about old Men Casan by Cold Chisel.
I don't really like that song, but I understand its cultural significance.
Quickly followed, and this was very cute if you were listening, because they've got Jimmy Barnes on the phone and he was all excited about k San, but he didn't know that. At number seven, Flame Trees, also by Cold Chisel.
Okay, how does that go?
Oh?
I love that song? It Flame Trees that blood, Oh, I love that song. Also did a brilliant version of it.
I feel like that indicates to me that Brent made a few profiles and did a bit of voting and that's okay. What's number three?
Double cold Chisel? Oh, still with the old blokes, although no offense, guys. My happiness by powder Finger, Yep, yep. Number five, it's the big number five. Don't dream it's over by Crowded House.
I love crowded House.
Yeah, they love Crowded House. Beautiful iconic. Hey is their discussion, Hollywayen right about how much Australia can truly claim crowded House.
Yes. When I Crowded House popped into the countdown a little earlier on with something Else Better be Home Soon, which is one of my favorites. Yeah, and I was like, no, no, no, they're Kiwi's.
I thought they were a little bit Kiwai too, and.
Again my house divided. Brent is a Kiwi and he was like, no, I think they're Australian now, and I'm like, well, if it was Kiwi songs, we could have all kinds of other things in here.
But we could have Russell Crowe's thirty odd foot.
A gues he could at which point I could have Lord. We had this discussion and Lucas said, hang on Kings of Leon haven't appeared yet, and I went, what's wrong with you? They're just simply not Australian.
One of the many things has been illuminated by this countdown is in our discussion this morning, one of our wonderful content creators, Tessa, was like, I didn't know ACTC were Australian, and she then went on to list all these other buds she didn't know Australian. I'm like, what are they teaching you in school?
Yes? See, this is an important education moment.
So a lot of these bands broke up or the lead singers died before gen Z was born.
Often jen Z knows the song Australian Okay number five was cron Okay.
Number four Friend of the Pod.
Yeah.
Missy Higgins with Scar great loved this.
I was waiting for Scar to come. We had Special two I think around the fifties Robbed, Robbed, Rob Scott. I definitely needed Scar in the top five.
Yes, and Brent was still happy. This next one is the point at which Brent lost his mind. And I need Jesse Stevens to explain it to me. Because many young women around the nation roared with approval at number three of the Greatest Australian Songs of All Time Untouched by the Veronicas.
Sorry, I saw that and went, oh, I thought that could have been number one, and Luca looked at me.
Can you sing that for me?
Well, it starts with a do do Do.
Do Do Do do is.
The violin and that's the bit where it gets really good and then it's like touched. It goes like that, right, Okay, we all need to understand. I feel as though half the country missed a viral moment and the other half of the country leaned into the viral moment. This song came out about two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight.
Yes, and the Veronicas have a lot.
Of bangers forever like they're honestly icons. But what happened with this song is that it came.
With the icons compared to like Missy Higgins and Crowded hous.
Of this some very good number three. The reason that they number three is because this song came out at a time when like MySpace was exploding, right, so everyone had like a MySpace song. It was really really big. It actually got on the Billboard charts in the US and the UK. It had international acclaim. But then it had this resurgence. I thought everyone knew about this resurgence.
Clearly not in like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, it was reclaimed as this like queer pop anthem because one of the Veronicas is queer, and so she's sort of become this like a Kylie. But if Kylon was quick and so it had this resurgence in sort of the Internet age and the TikTok age where like I went back to go I do remember this correctly, don't I? And it was like a BuzzFeed articles with just like fifty
tweets about untiped being the best song ever written. So for millennials and elder Genz's this is the number one Australian.
Song at all time, clearly because they put it at number three. Brent McKean regained his status by predicting number two. The nosebleed section by the Hilltop Hoods, so.
A great song, great song, put it number two. I always forget that the Hilltop Hooods are Australian, although I shouldn't because they sing in very Australian act. I only put it at number two.
Oh, great song, but number one didn't pick it. I don't think you two picked it, but the minute the intro starts, you're.
Like, of course, surprise, never.
Apart by excess.
Just because of the age of people voting, I kind of probably didn't expect it to be that.
Yeah, definitely in an excess song should have been in there. I don't know if it should have been number one, and we're going to give our top fives at the end of the show. But I always just think of that song as Michael Hutchin's funeral song, and maybe that's they played it at his funeral, that's what they walked out of the church to behind the coffin.
I always think of his funeral song as being Nick Caves into your Arms, which was which also made the Top twenty. It's so interesting because what I realized about, especially when you hear about the age of voters, is that what your greatest of all time is Because there was a lot of diversity in this list in that there was some new stuff, but there was a lot of old stuff. But it's hard to say that a song that was out last year is the greatest song of all time, like you might if you love it,
love it, love it hard. Yeah, So usually your song of all time is connected to a moment to you. And what was evident to me in the fact that a lot of young people voted for a lot of these old songs is their songs that their parents were playing in the house. Yeah. Right, So Brent thinks of like k Sam and whatever I mean, my God being his songs because he was a young guy singing them in pubs. But for the people who voted for them in this rundown, it's probably the song that their dad
was playing, you know what I mean. And I think that's where the emotional connection comes in. But never Tear Us Apart is very emotional.
And I think a lot of these have had another play, either on TikTok or in films or television, and that kind of gives it another life. I expected Rufus Desoul to be further up because of the people voting, but then I thought of that.
I don't know what that means.
Rufus, I know what, Rufus have won multiple Grammys, They've been on Okay, I'm trying to think. Well, in a Bloom was on there?
Yes? That was quite hard?
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
How does it go?
Well?
You guys kind of like what do you call it electro? It's like, yeah, you just know. Rufus Is Vagen says, they make the Triple J Top one hundred every year like they're massive.
It was also distressing that there weren't more women, But again, I think that we've only begun to see the correction of female representation in this kind of music in the last few years. Yeah, and so the hottest one hundred of the year is getting slightly better on women, but in terms of the greatest of all time, that's going to take a while to shine through.
Although Tane Maraina didn't make apparence criminal change, Chane didn't make I think that could have been top ten.
As we're talking, I think I'm going to have to revise my top five.
Yeah, I know so yes, as Mia says, if you care, please listen to the end of the show where we will reveal at top Maya.
Do you know the song that goes You were right.
Getting Jesse Stevens were right, it's the best. Oh my god, something's.
Wrong with that?
What is that song?
Is by It's the biggest song in the entire world.
You were right, yes, Dear coming up after the break, how much was Gwyneth Paltrow paid to become part of the Coldplay couple cheating scandal, and what does this have to do with the soft skin on the back of her knees. It's a big week for Gwyneth Paltrow, Holly's a big week for you, clearly because today her unofficial biography is released. I've pre ordered it. I assume you have too.
I already have a I don't need to read that.
She has also been parachuted into the biggest pop culture gossip story of the year so far, the couple who were caught cheating at a Coldplay concert. We spoke about this last Monday quick recap. The CEO and the chief people officer of a tech company called Astronomer, who were both married to other people, were caught cuddling on a kisscam at a Coldplay concert, and the footage went viral way back ten days ago, on July sixteenth, twelve days ago, actually,
what a time, resulting in the CEO resigning. Now in a genius move, yesterday, Astronomer released a video of their own on their social accounts. It's starred Gwyneth, the ex wife of Coldplay frontman Chris Martin, who was the one whose voice the world heard in the original kisscam video. Just to join the dots, here's a little bit of the video that Astronomer released yesterday with Quyneth thank you for your end and Astronomer.
Hi. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. I've been hired on a very temporary basis to speak on behalf of the three hundred plus employees at Astronomer. Astronomer has gotten a lot of questions over the last few days, and they wanted me to answer the.
Most common ones.
Yes, Astronomer is the best place to run apatche airflow, unifying the experience of running data mL and AI pipelines at scale.
We can't quite grasp it when you're listening to it because on the screen the questions that people are asking obviously the ones like how is everyone doing? Is your social.
Media WTF question?
And she doesn't answer that. She just gives like corporate speech.
And it's her sitting at a desk. I wanted to ask you both what you thought of it, genius.
I've always told you that Gwyneth would be funny as hell if you had dinner with her, and indeed, I
think she showed that side of herself. Here what I'm fascinated by because this isn't the first of this kind of immediate crisis PR do you remember, And this didn't age well very quickly after and just like that first came out the first season and mister Big died on the Peloton, Yes, and almost immediately Peloton jumped on that with Chris Noth to do an ad because if everyone was saying, well, this isn't very good PR for Peloton
and blah blah blah, they jumped on it. Unfortunately they had to pull that quite quickly because Chris Not suddenly became the target of some very unsavory allegations. But it's an example of what everything looks like it's going to ship for your company. Do you ignore it and keep paddling in the other direction or do you jump on it? How quickly would Gwyneth have had to make this decision about whether or not she wanted to be part of it?
Though, yeah, she wouldn't have had much time. And it's all about harnessing the attention because I was hearing because let's not forget either that it was about the kiss camp, but then it became about Astronomer like it became about how they had a very male board and the shit started to kind of splash back on them. So for them, it is irreverent, it is bold, it is dry, it is so funny. And did you know that it was Ryan Reynolds's ad agency that made it? That always is yes, And.
He also made the Chris noth one, the Peloton one.
They jump very fast, those guys. They understand virality.
The only way to counter an Internet narrative is with another Internet narrative in the Internet vocabulary. So, I mean they did put out a statement that was very straightforward to protect the employee who had been accused of being in that video, who wasn't another person who worked in HR. So they did put out a straight statement and then everyone started going astronomer. What's astronomer? I've never heard of astronomer before, and so the idea of getting Gwyneth was absolutely genius.
Can I ask a question, please? Do you think that they asked Chris Martin first? Like, do you think they went straight to.
Go Oh, that's such a great question. I think they did too.
I think they went to Chris because it is a little bit of an unusual leap in that Gwyneth is the ex wife.
Actually, no, it's a better idea because Gwyneth is much more interesting.
They couldn't have because they had to go to Gwyneth because they had to, like she's in the guise of working for them, right, being a spokesperson. So Chris Martin couldn't have done it because he was part of the original and if by this conceit he'd been working for Astronomer, he would have recognized. So they actually went to I'm trying to think who else they could have been. They could have just chosen a really, really famous person.
How about Dakota I mean, I know there's a lot of questions about her that da Cotah Johnson's any friend.
It could have been anyone in a way, but Gwyneth is very convincing because also Gwyneth does do these kind of things. Chris Martin does.
Not, does not, and I don't know about Dakota Johnson. So Gwyneth very happy day for her biographer Amy Odell, who immediately made a video about how comparatively she's been paid between six and seven figures for endorsement. Dear nothing like this, obviously, but she appeared at the Red Sea International film first of all in Saudi Arabia in twenty twenty three, and got one point six million for that, a quarter of a million dollars for attending a launch party.
Skims and Swarowski Crystals did some collab again in twenty twenty three.
That's how much you'd like to get paid.
And I'd need to get to live my house. About one point twenty five million for a contract that she had with Suosky, which was just to wear their jewelry. So I reckon she would have been paid five million for this. You were go yeah, no between two and five. And I think because they had to move so fast, it had to be a one offer, one and done. It had to be so good she couldn't have a feel right.
And also for her to even pick up the phone.
Correct, Ryan Reynolds would have called her. So I think that's the other secret. If it's just this person gets involved, it needs to be someone who can cut through all of that agent's managers, who can literally just text and go, hey, what do you think I think? And it would have had to happen very very quickly.
She would have obviously been paid a premium because this is dangerous in that We don't know if tomorrow there's going to be a story come out about widespread sexual harassment and Astronomer. It's a bold move to kind of be the temporary spoken person. It is for something that you don't have time to research, and you're kind of doing their pr form.
But if that does happen, would you think badly Gwyneth Paltrow, No, because it's clearly a joke. She's not really their spokesperson. She's just making a funny video.
And also she's not particularly precious about attracting Internet criticism. She attracts it all the time by breathing.
It's almost like an SNL sketch.
It is is I have two more things before I need to move on to some other very from Gwyneth News. I remember heard some commentary last week about whether or not this whole scandal was good or bad for Astronomer, because, as you said, Jesse, it sort of spotlighted some issues
within their diversity and their management team. But Scott Galloway was saying he thought this incident was terrible for the reputations obviously of the two people involved, and that, as you said last week, me or their lives would pretty much be ruined and it will follow them forever. But for Astronomer, it was good because who'd ever heard of astronomer and now suddenly everyone does. But I have a question, even after watching this ad, to either of you understand what astronomy is.
No, but we're not meant to the people who are meant to know what astronomer is, which they are a data analytics company, do know.
And they understood all the things that Gwyneth was talking exactly. Okay. In my other very important Gwyneth news, do not think that I did not break my thumb clicking on a recent ama with Gwyneth on Goop. So for the Goop podcast, she made a video. It's on YouTube of the places where audience could ask her anything. So in this asked me anything. Someone had asked what is Brad's favorite thing about you? Brad Foulchuk being her husband, not Brad Pitt, etc.
We'll get over that. One other day she said I'd love to text him, and they said you can do that, so she in the moment, allegedly in the moment on the video, she texts him and he sends back his reply and she reads it out live. And here is a part of it.
Doesn't he have a day job.
He's a very busy day job's loving her.
I honestly don't have a favorite, he said. I truly love every aspect of you, your physical beauty, the way your body moves through space, the way your hands add something to a pan that you feel so comfortable naked, and hate fake people when you're needy, when you're angry on the road.
I love when you chug water by the bedside at night.
I love your morning routine and when you act like I've been demanding you to get out of the bath when I haven't.
Said a word about it.
I love the skin on the back of your knees and the arch of your feet, and when you smile at me in bed after you've put in your retainers. I love how hard you try and how often you succeed.
I can keep going if you like.
Oh my please, don't please, don't keep going bad.
I think I'm doing love wrong. I don't know if I'll ever be loved.
Like the skin on the back of your knees.
I don't have a nice eye. I don't have a high RT.
Okay, have I internalized my misogyny that I'm just like, how can you brag about yourself like that? Like, I know she's reading what he said, but firstly I would be like, that's private between him and I, Like, that's from very intimate shit, right, And then also how can you say that out loud? He loves my physical beauty and how often I succeed at things?
I love it.
I'd actually also love it, and I mean she was just reading his words. I think that My shock is that he replied if I sent that, look, is this a trap? Like what have I done? And then he would say, I don't give compliments on demand, and then he would say, should we get that span of copater from Aldie? And that would be the whole conversationally.
The thing that's interesting to your point me at this is one of the reasons why I have my love hate obsession with Gwynneth is You're right, we're not supposed to tell people how we are. But that's what I like about it is it's like, on the other hand, there's a sort of movement of you know, the one, and there's the princess treatment stuff, but also it's the well, why not why should I constantly have to pretend I'm unlovable. I'm rubbish, I'm terrible. I don't know what he sees
in me. Why should we have to carry on like that. I'm not as hot as the girl next door. Blah blahlah blah.
Were you are like.
Just so intimate? Though, Like I don't know, I have this thing about all of us leaking intimacy through the internet right and through social media, and and at a time when most people are pulling back, most people I know to sort of read something like it's make no mistake. That's like a love sonnet when he wrote, but then to say it to make an into content, I don't know.
I love it.
I love it the skin on the back of my knees. It's never had more return to check mine. I'm going to exfoliate today.
Just going to have a product for that. I don't feel.
Really date their relationship, because don't you think that all the things that you most love about someone near the start of a relationship become the things that you have you the most like, for example, the way I do drink water.
Yes, and it shit's us yeah exactly, mayauzzles.
I love that. It's like my morning routine. I've read Gwyneth's morning routine. He does not love that it takes half an hour. He's like, can we just go to the gym, babe? And she's like, I'm oil pulling.
But how everything about her so adorable? I think maybe I'm just jealous.
I think so. The thing about liking her when she's agro on the road, like, that's not a particularly likable quality at all.
It is when Gwyneth doesn't may.
Harry Styles is selling a double started vibrator and some fancy lube to go with it. But by the time you work out where to put it, too bad, it's sold out. Did you know about this?
You're disappointed by Gwyneth. I'm a little bit. I woke up a little bit disappointed by Harry today.
Why is that because of your puritanical values?
No, that's you. I am a stand of Harry Styles most mornings. When I wake up, after I've checked talk Gwyneth is doing, after I've checked what Megan is up to, I checked to see if Harry has dropped a new album, because it has been forever too long. Harry's house several years ago now. It was a massive album. It was amazing and we went to the show. Blah blah blah.
I got COVID at that concert.
It's definitely Harry's fault. What's he been doing since? Well, we have an answer. He's been creating a sex toy.
He's distracted, and I for one think he's got to focus back on the music. There, I said it.
Do you say that about Rihanna?
You're right, tell me more about the sex toy, because I have some questions about why a sex toy?
Okay, Well, I don't think he's been like spending all his time in factories looking at prototypes, building models, testing them out. He created back in twenty twenty one, before he even released that album, he created like a brand called Pleasing, which creates unisex products. You might remember this. They've done nail, skincare and clothing, and now they've gone into sexual wellness. So it's like a bit of a
storefront and they've got different things. You know, there's a hoodie, and it's collabs with other brands, So he's not like manufacturing these things mostly from scratch. So a lot of his clothing is a collab with a fashion digner called J. W Anderson who's very well known. And this one is with a vibrator company, a collaborator called Zoe Ligon, So you know she has a brand of sex toys and he's done a collab right, Okay, So what's interesting is
that this vibrator. When I first heard that it was double sided, I had questions too. I was a bit like, I'm going to show you a picture of it. What would your questions have been, Jesse.
I guess it's like, are you meant to use it with a partner at the same time, in which case I have logistics questions. And if it's double sided, well maybe it's just depending on your mood. What you put in.
It looks really nice.
I know immediately what that is. Yes, So the double side looks like a microphone.
It does a bit. One end is designed for internal or insertable use and the other is for external stimulation. So you can either use it with a friend or alone. So that's the double sided thing, got it? Got it? I thought that you needed two people to use it, and I had some questions about holes.
I read this tweet because there's been a lot said about how, you know, how every celebrity has or had a beauty brand, whether that's makeup, and then it's really moved into skincare and it's this booming, booming industry.
And unbelievably, unbelievably lucretive, lucrative for a small number of You've got a celebrity Hailey b bar Worth just sold something for BILLIONSD per company. Yep.
So there's this now infamous tweet that reads everyone is beautiful and no one is horny. Like the idea is that everyone got so into the products and so into making themselves beautiful, but were we having any sex? Because we know that gen z like all the data about how much sex they're having is going down. But what that has never accounted for is like self pleasure, which they think is on the rise. And in Australia apparently we are a few years behind. In North America and
even in the UK they're less conservative. I'm always surprised in the global market how they talk about Australia is quite a conservative country, really, yeap. When it comes to sex toys and stuff, we are just we are jessy about it. So interestingly, yeah, Whereas in the US there's been this full on embrace which has been because of online marketing, mostly in that people are happy to buy a sex toy if they don't have to go into a.
Shop and look like that's what the explosion of sex toys is all about. Yeah, online shopping.
And the second thing is that the success of sex toys has been about its association with a famous person because the taboo and the shame around it has been kind of undone. Even in an Australian context. Abby Chatfield talked on No Filter about buying a house with her sex toy money.
Yeah, there was a time when you could not scroll through Instagram without having every influencer waiving their vibrator acts.
And it's clearly because and I did some research on this, this is projected like if you were going to invest in something Apparently like in the next five years, sex toys, it's the new syncare, Like it's going to Okay.
So, after our Rose guys were.
Launching sided out loud, I.
Have questions, don't you think I'm kidding? You know how my brain was podcast?
Why?
Yeah? Oh my god, they're nothing less sexy. Back to Harry for a sec. Right, So when I read the headlines, I assumed I was going to see Harry like waving the sexy around. No he's been much too savvy for that. He's very distanced from the marketing and lots of ways. He appears sort of in the first ad we've seen, but not his face, just his body. Because one of the things that I questioned about whether or not this is a good move for Harry, because you're so right, Jesse,
everyone has to have a side hustle. Now they can change your life, and male celebrities are a little bit on the back foot in that. Well, I guess this is his hot sauce, right, this is his hot sauces salad dressing.
Sauce.
It opens the door for people to be able to ask him about his sex life endlessly right now, like that, for he's always been very very private about what's actually.
Because I didn't read it that way.
That's so interesting everyone who releases a sex toy of like, firstly, you proclaim yourself as sort of sex positive in some way, and has opened talking about pleasure and orgasms and all that.
Kind of which has been part of his brand and very much part of the whole you know, Watermelon Sugar Era was all about sex and you know, queer sex and gender ambiguous sex, and so he's that's part of his brand. But I'm kind of interested that he wants to keep it that way, do you know what I mean?
Is this the first man we can think of his launched a female sex toy? Because we've got Gwyneth, We've got Cara Delavin, Dakota Johnson, Lily Allen, They've all moved into the sexual wellness market in Australia. We've got female examples, but I can't think of any men Jesse.
In twenty sixteen, Motley Crue launched a range of sex toys No.
Thank you only for use in the shower?
Would you want a Harry vibrator? I think about him anyway. It's just like joining those twos.
There he is. It all depends And this celebrity endorsement thing is interesting because even in the beauty context, the product being good is what sells product, right. They get access to work with really really and it sounds like he's done it really well in terms of working with people who know what they're talking about.
It probably had a bad orgasm though, like really in terms.
Of the bar's pretty low for it vibrator orgasms, you know what I mean? Want you'd want to make sure you're the one with your name on it was clearing that bar.
It's a bit of a moot point because it's around one hundred dollars if you could buy one. But when I went on the website to research, it said no products available.
Against jam all over again. No, I think it's sold out.
No, no, no, they're thinking that eventually it will be available for Australians. Just oh okay, after the break. An app called Tea is changing the way women date and the way men are held accountable. Is it a safety tool or digital vigilantism gone too far?
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A new app called Tea has given way to a thorny, very uncomfortable debate about dating, privacy and gender dynamics. So this tea app launched in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three around then, but it has since boomed. It is the number one app on the App Store in the US for this month. It's not yet in Australia, and we'll go into why it might not work in Australia
so much. But here's what it does. It is a women only, anonymous app where users review, worn about or share stories and photos of men that they have dated or that they planned to meet up with. So, for example, if I have matched with someone on a dating app, I want to know whether it's worth going on a date, I might go on to this search his name. I can reverse search an image, so that might catch someone who changes their name, and I will get reviews which
might be red flags, green flags. It's linked to things like criminal records to all that kind of stuff, and it'll give you like a background check.
So it's like Yelp but for men, but for men exactly.
The creator, Sean Cook, was inspired by his mother's negative experiences with online dating and catfishing, and basically he thought, what the world needs is the largest group chat about dating. It's similar to that Facebook group Are we dating the same guy? That went viral?
Which does exist in Australia certainly did.
It's the modern day equivalent to Whisper networks. So what's the problem, Well, a few things. The first is that there is an identity verification process for the female users right that just this weekend was hacked. So in order to go on, I think you've got to have your ad a photo and then you're able to use the app.
When you say used, do you mean you're able to post on it or you're just able to see it?
Both?
Okay?
In order to even get onto the app right now, thousands of members, images, posts, and comments were exposed. And if you think about the context of domestic violence or potentially having been with an abuser, and that person then has access to things you may have said about them, like privileged informent, like that's really quite highly dangerous. The other really significant issue is, as James Grieg put it, it's digital vigilantism, the TikTok equivalent of a citizen's arrest.
It's one thing if you're a legitimate scammer or criminal, and that is a portion, But do you deserve to be publicly shamed or have your reputation impacted because you ghosted someone once? There's a big question here about privacy. So one star review on the app speaks.
And you also have no right of reply.
No, because you can't even get on there and you can't screenshot on the app, so if I saw something about a friend, I can't even screenshot it and send it to them. There's a one star review on the app where someone is talking about a friend saying he decided not to pursue things romantically with a woman. That woman posted on the app, and as a result of that review, he'd been turned down on a bunch of dates. It's really impacted his mental health and now he avoids dating altogether.
So it's like the scarlet letter, Like it's like public shaming.
Yeah, what do we think? What do we think of an app like this? Do you think that it has utility? I think probably in the Australian context. There's a big question about defamation right, Like it feels dangerous for the women posting, because if you say something about someone that could be seen as defamatory, then that starts to get a bit dangerous. And the US has very different lads to us. Holly, what do you reckon?
I think it's great. I think that women exchanging information like this is really important. It's one of the few things that can protect them. The biggest enemy of this is how famous it's become. All of a sudden because you know, you're saying, well, the security was breached, that's going to happen, right, Like that's going to happen with all kinds of apps. I don't think that means it
shouldn't exist because it's security was breached. I think the problem is is the more well known it is, because the fact is popular proves that the use case is real, that women needed it, wanted it, and use it right, and so that's one thing. But then now it scales up and more and more people get to know about it, then people who have other motives for getting into it are going to try and get into it.
When you say the fact that people wanted it proves the use case for it, I'm not saying there's no use case for it. But just because people want something doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good thing or that it's legitimate. So in response to you know, there are all these sort of Reddit threads and men's rights groups saying that the tea app needs to be deleted and taken down. In response, another app was launched called Tea Born.
It says get the tea on anyone, check before you date, so you could basically leave gossip about anybody, male or female. And the Tea Born app was taken out of the app store by Apple because users were posting revenge porn of women against women. How would we feel if this was reversed? So suddenly you can have an app and only men are allowed to comment on it and it's about women, and suddenly men can go, she was a slut, she was this, she was that.
Are we cool about that too?
She was a psychlobe? She stored me that this information is going to be exchanged anyway, Do you know what I mean? You can't stop people from saying what they say about people. But this is actually very useful in lots of situations.
I don't think that this information, I don't think it would be would have necessarily been shared. So for example, there's a tool that's a phone number look up and it helps verify if someone has a hidden marriage or a concerning history with that phone number. So you could go in and go, is this going anywaight? And look, maybe he is? And that what I.
Mean when I say the use case is just talk to some women who are using dating apps regularly and they are often getting calls from people going I think you're dating my boy like this is real, It's not an imagined situation. And the thing is is that one thing that I mean, as you say, Jesse, it's complicated
whether or not it could be here. But women cannot use public platforms like Facebook, and you can argue that absolutely they should not be able to to claim that they were abused by somebody because they will get slapped by defamation. And there are lots of cases of that where a woman in Australia tried to warn the new partner of a man who was abusing her and he immediately sued her, and that happens like it happens a lot. So I'm not saying that this is perfect. I'm not
saying it isn't open to abuse. But what I am saying is I can see the appeal. I can see why women want to use it, and I can see why it's legitimate and lots of ways.
There was a woman called Moira Donnegan. She started and created a Google spreadsheet around the time of Me Too called Shitty Media Men, which circulated like wildfire, as you can imagine, and it was circulated among women who worked in the media, and it was exactly what you say it was about this whisper network, and there were you could anonymously list any man and then his transgressions and these ranged from allegations of rape to just it was a bit creepy, Yeah, felt a bit creepy, or stood
me up for dinner or whatever. And so that ended up being part of a huge legal case when some of those men said, firstly, what was written about me was not true and it was never proven in court, and these were allegations that were very serious and life ruining, and some men did have their lives ruined and they
had no recourse. And what happened in the process of that is that every woman, not just who added something to that list, but every woman who received that list and saw it was named and exposed as part of this lawsuit. What I keep coming back to, and I feel so uncomfortable about this, even though I do know what you're saying in terms of someone who's got you know, around DV or around if they're married, but that's sort
of maybe the ten percent. The ninety percent is other stuff that's around not being a good person, or that's more subjective. I keep thinking about when public commentary was disconnected from identity. That's when things started to devolve in the online world in terms.
So you're talking about the anonymity.
Yeah, it's the anonymity as soon as people were able to post anonymous comments, whether it's on an Instagram or Facebook, cod anywhere on the internet. When you decouple identity from accusations and commentary, that's where things can go really, really bad.
Yeah.
And I also understand that sometimes you're not in a position to put your name to me.
You've never put your name. However, it also.
Is like, what if someone wrote something about your son, or your husband, or your friend or your brother, and they had no recourse, They don't know who did it. They say it wasn't true. This was perhaps this person's either subjective view or it's someone who was just really pissed off and wanted to wreck him. I find that incredibly just so.
On the one hand, I think that this is probably filling a hole that has been left by very imperfect legal system that leaves women with no path to justice a lot.
Of the time. So that's the thing is that when people say, but none of this stuff has been proven. Yeah, do you know how difficult it is for any woman to get herself believed, never mind all the way through a legal process. So what are they supposed to do exactly with this information that they have? That women exchanging information has always been incredibly important for women to protect themselves.
So if you are the victim of sexual assault, which we know like one in three women are, if you are the victim of a scammer, like we have all these like who the hell is Hamish? And Dirty John and all these stories about men who have changed names and identities and you know, robbed women of so much of their life savings, you kind of go, well, if it can prevent that, then I see it as something useful.
And I think that this exists and is popular because of an otherwise very big gap, which is that women go and whether it's restraining orders or whatever, they then often not listen to and the legal system is too difficult.
How is it not also at the same time, character assassination, Like I understand people going on thinking, oh, I'm not sure about this guy, or maybe you want to check has he got any DV convictions? Is he married? I understand all of that. Before a date, what I would do is go and just find the tea, Like what are other women say about that, But then.
It's up to you what you do with that tea. So when you said you know, there's a world of difference between ghosting and abuse, of course there is. So if I go on and I check him and it just says he ghosted me once the way that my mind would work, and we all know many many women in our lives to do the stugga, Well he ghosted you because he wasn't that into you. He'll totally be into me. You know what, I don't. It's not mandatory,
do you know what I mean? Like, I don't. I think that if you're opting in to search for somebody who's given you a reason to feel a bit uncomfortable or uneasy with the more you've had really bad experiences, and you find something, then it's kind of up to you what you do with that, and also how seriously you take.
I think there is a question though about collateral damage and when the question of anonymity, And I never want to accuse women of lying because we know that false reporting of crimes like these where women make an allegation of sexual assault or domestic violence against a man is really percentage wise, is very very rare when you've got
the element of anonymity in there. And if you hate your boss, if you hate your ex boyfriend, and there is something you can do to make their life harder, you wouldn't go on there and say they ghosted you, right, You would say the absolute top thing, which then dilutes
the legitimacy of the real accusations. And so I guess I worry about that because if I went on I was about to go on a date and it said it was one review and one red flag, and it said he was someone who physically assaulted someone, I would not go on a date with that man. And so that man has been marked, and.
I don't think a lot of people would be going there to write positive reviews. So you know what we always say about don't read the comments is that the people who leave comments about anything are most likely to be on the extremes. And usually the more angry and pissed off you are, the more likely you are leave a comment, So you can get a very skewed view of either a situation or a story or a person.
But then the vast majority of men wouldn't be on it, do you know what I mean? Like the guy, you've searched for Bob. Bob's not there because Bob's not done anything to piss anyone off.
Like it's fine, Yeah, I know, But can you see a world in which.
Can I its abused apps?
You do?
I think just because some things can be abused by bad actors, that they shouldn't exist. No out loud is that's all we've got time for. Except we promised you our top fives and the reasons why for our favorite Australian songs of all time. We all forgot to vote in the Triple Jist one hundreds and this is consider this our late ballots. Yeah, who wants to lead?
Jesse? You go first?
Okay, I'm gonna go Chains by Tina Arena because I feel she was robbed.
I'm so glad you say that because I just forgot about it. You forgot?
That's okay?
Is that number five?
That's my number five?
Yes?
Number four. I'm going to go with holding On by Flume. I really like Flume.
I like was in there a couple of times. Tell me why.
I just think it's like, it's such a good party song. I love when I'm overseas and I hear Ozzie Music and I just have been traveling and heard that song about me so happy. Number three I'm going to go truly, madly, deeply by not.
Enough Savage Garden and not High Enough.
I loved Average Garden.
I just love them.
Number two Torn by Nataliembroler. Yes, it's just that is on like my list of such a banger. That film clip her haircut, it was a moment. Number one Better Be Home Soon by Crowded. I think it's one of the best songs ever. That's Wow.
We've got a lot of common ground.
I do too. I think her top fives are going to be quite similar.
Okay, Maya, what's your top five?
Okay? I did have six, and I had Natalie and Broulier Torn, but I want to tie it with chains. I know I sound like I'm just copying you. That's because I am. Okay, all right. My next song is in an excess song and it is not that one. It is either Disappear or New Sensation.
I couldn't do wrong about that.
Number four either, don't If there's gonna be an excess song in there, shouldn't it be did a little little litter? Shouldn't it be that one sexy moment.
Okay, what's like all of them? What do you get? Okay, if you get extra, I get extra.
Don't dream. It's over crowded house, but also better be Home.
Better Homes, a better song than I would.
Like this Top five, My order is a little bit fucked up. But then I'm going to say, am I ever going to see your face again? By The Angels? And I thought about what you said. Whole about that is my youth, you know? So many of these are the pub songs that I didn't go to pubs, but that I danced to your parties. Then I'm going to say Midnight Oil, a Power and the Passion. Oh yes, okay, Midnight Oil, I mean, come on right. Beds of Burning is also great. But number one, believe this is even
a contest. You're the Voice by John Ollen.
Yeah, I agree.
I love that song. Oh my god, that song that man, it was comic fifteen. I think I think it was.
Okay, how about you, Holly five?
I have reasons for all of mine. Number five, like you guys, It's Tall by Natalie Karaoke. It's my favorite karaoke so so one of them. Yes, the Moment in Time when she did that, I thought she was the most beautiful Maan I don't see and you know how you get obsessed with that. Number four, it is slightly newer. It's booster Seat by Spacey Jane. The reason why how does that because in my booster's seat it feels like anyway? The reason why I don't know that one me and
my daughter sing it in the car. We have sung it in the car together for years now, so I know that even when I'm on my deathbed, if I hear that song.
It will That makes me feel really happy, because yesterday Luna made me play police sirens in the car, so one day we may listen to real music to Spacey Jane.
Number three. It's a Missy Higgins, but not one of the ones that made it in the Sound of White That yeah, exactly. The reason it's in my list is because every single time I hear it, no matter how many times I've heard it, it makes me cry losing someone fry my eyes out. Number two. How was this song not in the Hot one hundred Chandelier by see It? I know?
I agree that is one.
Of my favorite bangers of all time song.
Throw your Arms around Me hunters and collectors.
Yes, I wonder if that made it.
But Chandelier is one of my pomp up songs and number one and it was in the top ten is how to Make Gravy by Paul Kelly. Because it for me, it's Christmas, it's family, it's our songs. So I think your songs are always going to be emotionally connected to something, and.
Those I'd like to say that I would have pretty much all five Messy Higgins, but I felt like she did get acknowledged with Scar and also just a late entrance. I think Horses by darryl Oh that.
Was on their tur That would have been Amelia Lester's top song. That was her wedding song.
Really, all the Americans look really confused.
Yes they were, they were confused. That is that chronic song.
Okay, before we go, I think you have something to tell the out loud as me I do.
We hear from so many of you who are struggling in your relations and ships, not just with your partners, but other family members, even friendships. So what we've decided at Muma Mia we are going to create a new podcast. We've been developing it for quite a while now, where real people with real problems can get real therapy. Our team are working with an incredible clinical psychotherapist. She's so great. She's like our version of Vesta Perell. You can love her.
And so we're looking for pairs of all kinds of configurations, not just romantic couples, people who feel they'd benefit from the therapy process. So it might be a sibling, it might be a parent, it might be a child, it might be a colleague, a colleague for example. It's going to be so great. We are going to be the first episode. No we're not. It's such a rare opportunity to be able to be a fly on the wall for someone else's therapy. I just know that you're going
to love this. So if it sounds like you or someone you know, we've popped a link in the show notes for you to apply or to send someone and we will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Bye bye bye.
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