You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twenty fifth of September, I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm MEA Friedman, and.
I'm Jesse Stevens.
And on the show today, a very famous man is in jail and celebrities are deleting their socials. Unpacking the p Diddy allegations and their impact. Also a presidential candidate nude photos, and a conversation about digital cheating. Welcome to me as current obsession and you probably have well being burned out and please pass the coffee, but first, Mia Friedman.
In case you missed it, a poor poor man has gone viral after he simply sent a text message to his fiancee. Twenty two year old Avery Beverly from Florida shared a text message from her fiance aiden with the Internet and it's gotten over nine hundred thousand views and many many comments. The text message said, what time is our wedding?
I loved the story.
I read it and went, oh what did he send goodness? And then I'm like, okay, what's the rest of it that he said?
That was it?
He just said what time is our wedding? And people lost it. They said, my husband also asked this. My husband asked this every single day of the week of our wedding. Mine asked me to send the location the day of.
And they're just on and on.
With these people, aghast that a man could ask what time his wedding was. This was also two months before his wedding. Now, if you'd have asked that even on the day, even after the wedding had started, I would not blame him. Why not?
Why?
Because the reason all these women are mad like decoding is because all the mental load of the wedding is on me and you're just turning up and you can't even be bothered to know what time it is.
Well, I think it's because men just aren't that interested. And look, I empathize with men about weddings because I am not that bride, I was not that bride.
I'm not interested in it's what time it starts. You're gonna asking him like, could you tell me exactly what shade you're time? Like, what time it starts.
I think that's a very sensible question. He doesn't want to be late.
Leave the guy alone, Jesse, Oh no, no, no.
The reason why the first is the mental load that she's doing everything. And again it's not even in your bloody diary to go. It's an event that I have to attend and be on time for. I think the other point of irritation is that as a bride, you have to know what time it starts, because women have
to do the most complicated equation, that complicated math. No, it's not because no, no, no, because you know that it's going to start at three, and so you go, all right, then I've got to start my makeup at three thirty am so that the hair can get here at five. And did a day do it? And a matter off
playing golf. Even if you do it yourself, your actual wedding day for a woman is so stressful and packed, whereas men are, like, if it starts at three, I reckon I should put my suit on two point fifty.
On your wedding day, all the guys were at my house and it was so much more fun than it was where you were across the road.
And also you had your.
Best lady with gastro so it was quite the drama and ivy fluids over at yours. But look, it is beauty standards and all of those kinds of things. But I just I'm going to side with Holly on this one and say the whole wedding industrial complex it's just a bit silly. And I know that outladders get annoyed with us when we say this, because Holly and I are very pooper about weddings and if you love that stuff, go for it, lean into it, you know, start preparing
six months out, two years out, knock yourself out. But then don't be all like this is.
So hard, my life is so hard.
He does nothing, but I thought, not just brides deciding to have big weddings.
To be clear, I'm with you on everything you said right up until that point. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect that if you are planning a wedding with somebody who's supposed to want to marry you, that they pay some attention to the details, like what time it's start.
But it's about the marriage hole, not the wedding, of course it is. I think you've still got the day.
Oh my superficial, But it's not superficial to know what time to.
Turn I don't know what time to turn up at anything. But also when you're a main character in an event, you often don't get an invitation.
This is a little loophole.
Like I found at your one of your events, your wedding, your engagement party, I didn't get an invitation.
So I think you sent the invitations.
Saying I don't know what time it is. I didn't get an invitation. I think it was your wedding that I didn't.
I actually just didn't want to invite you.
So she was like, I suppose she's going to come.
Last week, Sean Combs, also known as Diddy or p Diddy, one of the wealthiest musical artists of all time, was arrested. He has been charged with sex trafficking and racketeering, so running a criminal and prize centering on abusing women by using bribery, arson, kidnapping, and threats of violence to intimidate and silence victims. In the days since other women have come forward with allegations of rape, he has pleaded not guilty.
Now you might remember earlier this year we talked about the Cassie Ventura allegations, which Coombs originally denied until a video surfaced of the rapper physically assaulting his former girlfriend at a hotel in la It's hard to even imagine this, but only a year ago, Coombs was seen as an industry visionary. He was afforded an enormous amount of respect, and we, it seems, are only beginning to scratch the
surface of some of his alleged crimes. The allegations that have emerged in the last week are so damning, and they potentially implicate dozens of celebrities, and this has The New York Times asking is the music world's me too movement? Finally, here in the legal papers submitted as part of the lawsuit, there are references says to freak off parties that's a quote, which were elaborate and produced sex performances that Combs arranged
and electronically recorded. The papers allege these free coughs lasted days at a time, they involved a variety of illicit substances, and the sensitive recordings were used as collateral against the victims. A Department of Homeland Security agent says they have evidence that the women did not feel free to go and video evidence shows that some are I quote, clearly out of it while the men are having sex with them.
And he's alleged to have flown in male porn stars to participate in those free coughs, and the women who I believe included Cassie Ventura. I mean, what I can't understand is how after that video was released he was not charged and found guilty and jailed, which he also admitted that he'd done it. Remember he had that video where he said, I'm ashamed. That's not who I am, except it is who you are, buddy. That's you beating a woman who you purport to love in publics, so
God knows what you did in private. But when his lawyer came out and said, you know, did he as a visionary? He's many things, he's not perfect, but he's not a criminal.
It's like, but you are, We saw that we are.
The evidence.
Court documents claim that Coombs has recordings of several celebrities, artists, music label executives, and athletes engaging in a legal activity. These individuals were recorded without their knowledge and consent. This has led to images of Kumbs's parties being splashed over every news site, with just about every celebrity you can think.
So not sex parties that he used to have these annual white probably.
I think one of the things that's important to understand is that I don't think that everyone whoever went to the white parties in the Hamptons was necessarily obviously aware or partaking in these parties. I think there are like levels of debauchery in this situation.
And levels of knowledge, because what's being uncovered now is how much of kind of how Wild Coombs's parties were was an open secret in Hollywood.
People just knew it.
It's been referred to in popular culture for more than twenty years.
Yeah, but what does wild mean exactly?
Yeah, which brings us to a clip from Keeping Up with the Kardashians from twenty fourteen where Chloe said.
This, so, who was with you this weekend? A bunch of my friends, Didy, Quincy, justin Bieber.
So far as Montana.
You know half the people you're naming?
No, she didn't go to bed.
I opened a bed yet you haven't.
I want to be Chloe.
When I grew up Court, I got on a.
Plane at five thirty am.
Well, this party, I think half the people there were butt naked, you would have loved it.
Justin Bieber, who was twenty at the time of Chloe's comments, is now central to the coverage of this case, with many publications reappraising his relationship with Coombs, who is also a very powerful record exact was he discovered by He was discovered by Usher, who was very close to Sean kuhmbs. But there's reports that suggest that Coombs could be worth.
One billion dollars.
Like the network that holds up this man and the industry that relies on him is so big.
But it's also important to note that Diddy is a mogul of the sort that it's not all about music, so it's clothes like he has a ven diagram the intersex between. He was one of the era of rap artists who came up in a very tumultuous time, right, we'd probably all remember him being arrested with Jennifer Lopez back in the day at a shooting and all those things, and then sort of transformed into a billionaire mogul, and
that involved his Sean John clothing label. He also became a TV producer, So the reason that his parties could attract everybody was his spheres of influence were very intersected. There's music, there's fashion, there's TV and movies, so it's all of it together, you know what I mean.
And in light of the new allegations, watching his relationship with a very very young Justin Bieber is making people uncomfortable. So there's a two thousand and nine YouTube video that is resurfaced with this exchange where we.
Hanging out and what we're doing, we can't really disclose. It's definitely a fifteen year old's dream for the next forty eight hours.
He's with me, so.
Yeah, and we're gonna go full but full crazy. What you want to do? What you want to do for the next.
Forty eight hours, forty eight hours, Let's go out? Are we gonna?
Let's just go get some girls.
Let's going on.
Some girls.
May for my heart, That's what I'm talking about.
The question that emerges have the actions of Coombs just been an open secret in Hollywood? Fans are reconsidering Biber's songs including Lonely.
Everybody Saw Me Sick and a Fairly No one gave a shit The criticize the things I did as an idiot.
What if you had it?
That song is called Lonely. It came out in twenty twenty one. He would have been about twenty six twenty seven, and that's.
About ten years after that video with him and did he?
Then there are these lyrics from a song called Fuel by Eminem.
I'm like so many essays. He didn't just fail the word rapper, really owed it?
Did he?
If you listen to the play on words there, it's removing the letter P which makes it raper. And then he says, did you remove the P?
Did he?
And so he says so many essays essays which is sexual assault?
Oh wow, So it's being decoded, and then kesher. One of her first songs was called TikTok. This is how it started. Wake up in the morning feeling like piz glasses. And last week she was lip syncing on TikTok the app which is confusing, and she maled the lyrics to the new version which has been released yet, but you can hear how she has changed the lyrics wake up in the morning like some pins in and grabma glasses.
So the two things that spring to mind for me, the comparisons are Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, and both of those were seen to be open secrets in Hollywood, well not as open as this, because at least they sort of semi went on behind closed doors. But Harvey Weinstein acted like alone in rooms with women, whereas Jeffrey Epstein seemed to be more the p ditty model and not co opted but invited other men in to either witness or participate in these heinous situations, which and then
requitted it. Yes, so that didn't end very well for him.
Did it so end?
No?
And the difference This New York Times article that I read talked about the difference between the music industry and Harvey Weinstein, because why is it that, you know, Hollywood had this reckoning and we seem to pay attention to it. I mean, it feels like it's been wound back now
with what's happening with Harvey Weinstein in court. But the big difference with the entertainment MeToo movement was that it only got traction when Harvey Weinstein's victims were famous, So you needed it to be famous actresses or famous TV personality, people with power, people with power, but with a lot of the people who have come out against people in the music industry, and this has been happening for a
really long time. They're not famous enough, and so it doesn't get the traction it requires.
Because it also wasn't just the fame, it was the volume. So it was there were a number of women who had to come and then the next wave came in.
Then it was Gwynne and that's what Cassie did.
Cassie Ventura, what she has done, that was a watershed moment because she's encouraged other women to come forward.
But also the thing is that's tricky about this is that rock and roll, in like broad terms, has always been and is meant to be wild, right, wild is like it's such an euphemism now up from the sixties and from way before that. You know, that is kind of the idea. So the motivation for a lot of people to get into it, the idea of like the girls, the party, ex drugs, drugs, sex, drugs and rock and
roll is literally in the brochure, right. So what's interesting about this is it isn't a secret that powerful people have long made people sign NDA's before they go into parties, taken their phones off them, made them promise not to say what happens in there, and the idea that it was seductive and exciting to get into that inner circle and go to a wild party if you're Choe Kardashian or whatever where people are naked, is probably very exciting, right.
I have a problem with the idea that everyone whoever was invited to a P. Diddy party, which now their pictures are all plastered all over every tabloid site, knew of the level of abuse that was happening. I am almost certain, knowing the way that predators work, that that was kept to a relatively tight and very lock down group of people.
Right.
People who are talking about him and having the evidence are his security. They're people like his videographer who were complicit and being paid to be complicit in filming these events. I think it's probably a naive assumption to think that every did He party was that, do you know what I mean?
I agree so.
That you know everyone who's been photographed in a white dress at one of those parties, because one of the things that did he was very very good at in his ascendants was buying credibility and social status. So he went from very deliberately and this was part of his assent from being I'm a gangster. I beat people up with champagne bottles, which he also was convicted of doing. He's involved in shootings too. I'm playing golf with the Clintons,
I'm mates with Martha Stewart. I'm in the Hamptons now, like the Hamptons is the white playground of the rich and powerful. So he was very clever at changing his story.
Well, he hid in plain sight. And I mean, if you look at any marketing funnel, at the top of the funnel, you've got to have stuff that's so attractive that people you know will want to be around you, and so you've got the status of And for Harvey Weinstein, it was Gwyneth Paltrow, and so he used his proximity to Gwyneth Paltrow and that she was in his movies and even Rene's Elwigo, and he told other actresses, oh, they also slept with me, and so if you sleep
with me, you too can be like that. And so for Diddy, it was like lots of people wanted to be in his orbit bees to Honey because it was the white party.
And you're right, it was like.
Leonardo and you could go to the party and it was like it seemed like he was the powerbroker in Hollywood and in the music industry. And then you're right, there was this darker underbelly that was more the inner sanctum, but so many people knew.
The thing is about it that's depressing, and you've already touched on this Jesse, is that it just seems over and over that these stories are very powerful man can treat women in particular, although in this instance not only women. It seems from the stories with such horrific disregard and nobody gives a shit and for ages, they can dismiss it as gold digging. She's a drug addict, That's what he would say about Cassie, for you know, she's a drug addict. She is, of course she's going to say
that they're all trying to bring me down. Everybody's just trying to tear me down. And because they're holding the power, they can get away with anything.
This week also Muhammad al Fayed, who is the late father of Dodie al Fayed, who was Princess Diana's boyfriend and they were killed in nineteen ninety seven. He used to own harods and of course he was made famous once again through the crown recently, and only in the last week women have come forward. I think it's up to one hundred now who've come forward in a class
action and said he also committed over many decades. He was notorious for committing rape sexual assaults on all of these women, and some of them have even contacted Mama Meir and said, yes, it was widely known. I worked at Harod's. It happened to me. And what's interesting to me is that he only died I think last year,
and he was ninety four. And yet even through all of them, me too, through all of this stuff with Weinstein and then Epstein and all of these things that have happened, and you thought, this is the reckoning, right and all of these men, women were so scared because of the threats that were made against them. And again these women also had no power. They weren't famous women, which is no doubt why he prayed on them. It wasn't until he was dead that they felt safe enough to come out and speak.
And often that there are others that there are one hundred.
Yeah, people don't believe women. This is why. And I know that we can get a bit IROLLI some people can get a bit IROLLI about the believe women are there, but women are never believed. If there is a power and balance in this kind of situation, there never believe. They're dismissed, they're paid off, they are threatened, they're shut down. Like Cassie's story, we've talked about it on the show before,
is terrifying about what happened to her. Well, even once she escaped did his circle she was, Oh, I'm going to interrupt you and say, I.
Don't think it's just not women are believed. I think this is about a power and balance, and.
I think these men choose victims that do not have power, but power. I think it's and so I don't think these women even get to the point where they can.
You know, they're telling people. That's why it's an open secret. They're telling people. But I think this is what happened to me and those and they are being silenced.
But the open secret.
I do think that we will find out that celebrities at high profile people knew and fifty cent has a quote where he says some of them were involved talking about other celebrities at the parties and enjoyed themselves, so they don't know what the fuck is on tape or what's not on tape? So in terms of they're being blackmail, what I think is very loud at the moment is the silence from a lot of celebrities, Right.
But what do you think they should say?
There's two things at play, right. One is celebrities coming out and saying, I'm horrified by these allegations. We're not hearing that. The other is jay Z is one of his best friends.
Right. There's also no one putting their hand up defending him. No one is defending him.
So I know that it's a hard position to find yourself in, but I do think that there's probably stuff on tape, whether it's drug taking. I'm not saying that it's the worst of the worst, but that has made it impossible for other celebrities to say anything.
And that's very deliberate, which is exactly what Epstein did and why they were all these rumors that it wasn't death by suicide and jail because he had all of this on all of these famous men and he used that to protect himself.
So there's a lot of conspiracy theories. I mean, a number of celebrities have had like their Twitter for some reason that's been wiped in the last week, so Usher's Twitter history has gone. He said that he was packed and that's why it disappeared, and then Pinks and then Megan Fox. There's a lot of different stories about why it's happened.
Do you think that's because maybe they didn't know? And there are pictures of their more complimentary things that they've said about Diddy, or selfies that have been taken, or parties that they've been to. Every publicist in Hollywood is trying to move their client retrospectively away as far as possible.
Even just before we came into this record, I found a clip on Conan in the early two thousands and it's Koomb sitting there talking about his parties, talking about how to have a great party, you need lots and lots of alcohol. You have to make it hot in the room because that changes the effect of the alcohol, and you have to lock the doors because otherwise the women will leave.
That was on Conan O'Brien.
And that's the culture that people were like, Well, that's what wild is. That's what a wild party is.
And what I think is probably just worth acknowledging is the proximity that people like this have to children. And I know that we've seen this with recently. We talked about Nickelodeon, the producers there the preyed on children. But I just look at Justin Bieber, and I look at all the issues with a lot of people who came up, but someone having parties like that, having legal guardianship of Justin Bieber for forty eight hours, which is some legal
loophole I don't fully understand. But he had Justin Bieber like privately in his home for an extended period of time.
The child, and then we wonder why he appears to be so damaged.
Yes, yeah, mother me Hello.
One of the biggest stories in the media this week is like a Venn diagram of some of my key areas of interest media, gossip, us, politics, the.
Kennedy family, and Hollywood. Let me begin.
A high profile journalist for New York magazine called Olivia Nuzzy, who's thirty one, has been suspended from her job this week after her boss discovered she'd been having an inappropriate romantic relationship with seventy year old Robert Kennedy Junior, who, until a couple of months ago, you may remember was running for president, but he's now backing Donald Trump. He's
quite the character. He's an anti vax crusader. He has had some very strange incidents come to the fall, recently about burying a baby bear cub carcass in Central Park, also cutting off the head of a dead whale and carrying it home on the top of his.
Car, and having a worm in his brain.
And having a brainworm that he says ate his brain, which might explain a lot. He is also described as a professional philanderer according to Friends Good Friends, and he's had three wives, the current one being actress and comedian Cheryl Hines, who you may know Curb your enthusias your enthusiasm. He also has six kids by his three wives, one of whom is Kit Kennedy, who was rumored to be dating Ben Affleck after he split from.
J Low a couple of weeks ago.
So this Kennedy that we're talking about, Yes, every time we talk about him, I need a reminder of how he is related to JFK.
His nephew, got it. So this Kennedy, Robert Kennedy Junior, his dad. It's confusing that they've all got the same names. It's a very waspy, rich people thing where you name are your children the same thing. So his father was also Robert Kennedy, and he was assassinated a little while after JFK with JFK's brother and he was assassinated. So he basically was about eight or ten when his uncle
and then his father were assassinated. And he has become a proponent of all the conspiracy theories that it was an inside job and that it was the CIA, and he's sort of been disowned. He's got ten siblings and he's been disowned by a lot of them. They put out a statement basically saying we don't support him when he's not our guy. Does everyone need a moment to take all that in? What we are going to discuss today is the sexting, because because.
I was going to say those niche interesst areas not my niche interrest areas. This story, love it, love it. I have been going deep. I can confirm it is interesting. It is interesting.
Because essentially what happened is that Nazzi, who's she's made a big name for herself as New York Magazine's Washington reporter. She's got a reputation for these deep insider profiles that she does. She gets great acts to some really prominent figures in American politics. I love her writing. I really like her profiles.
Just this month, she did a big.
Profile of Trump after the first assassination attempt, and she took a close look at his ear and wrote an early interesting cover story about that. But last November, again, as part of her job, she interviewed Kennedy and she flew to his compound wherever, and even though it wasn't a very flattering profile that she wrote, she wrote about how he took her in this big car where all his dogs are, and the smell was so overpowering she
thought she was going to pass out. And then they went for a hike together and he just kept stopping to pick up these mountains of poo that all his dogs were doing on the trail, and like he's quite the eccentric character.
But they obviously hit it off because they stayed in touch and started sexting. Essentially.
The story broke last week and everyone involved quickly called crisis PR people and issued statements, which included New York Magazine a note to our readers. Recently, our Washington correspondent Olivia Nuzzy acknowledged to the magazine's editors that she had engaged in a personal relationship with a former subject relevant to the twenty twenty four campaign while she was reporting
on the campaign. Had the magazine been aware of this relationship, she would not have continued to cover the presidential campaign. She's currently on leave while we conduct an inquiry.
To be clear. Yeah, she'd already filed the profile.
The ethics of it are interesting. Yeah, journalists and politicians have had affairs before. Blanche del Puge went to interview Bob Hawk, and that's how their affair began.
And for the age, and this.
Is the thing, it wasn't a flattering profile.
That was not an interesting flirting because that profile was not what what I'm sure he would want her to have written.
Or She released a statement next saying, some communication between myself and a former reporting subject turned personal.
Earlier this year.
During that time, I did not directly report on the subject nor use them as a source. The relationship was never physical, but should have been disclosed to prevent the appearance of a conflict. I deeply regret not doing so and apologize to all those I've disappointed. Then his representative released this cracker of.
A starle I have one hundred things to say about this statement.
Mister Kennedy only met Olivia Nuzzy once in his life for an interview she requested, which yielded a hit piece.
He didn't like the interview.
The dog Pooh was too much.
So what's interesting is that he's also his camp have been briefing journals off the record and told Puck News that she sent some demure nude photos to him and that the relationship was once sided, with some friends of the former candidate believing she set him up. She was a bit stalkery.
Well shit, this is what I've heard. I've heard she targeted him pretty hard. Bobby was blocking her continually.
It was a little too snary.
She was obsessed with him. I think she's still so much from a blow.
Is a man who I found a headlined about how with his first wife she found a list of forty three mistresses on his phone. He only knows how to cheat on women, his flood with other women while standing next to his wife. We truly believe that this thirty one year old woman was just bombarding him with sexy images while he tried to look away and delete them.
Well, she did certain news.
And what's interesting is that you know she was also engaged until now to another high profile political reporter in the US, guy called Ryan Lizza, who had his own me too scandal and got lovely It's lovely weave. Cheryl Hines has not yet released a statement. She's in I think Paris with her daughters and also one of his daughters, celebrating her birthday. The question is is digital cheating? And there has never been a more unsettling term. I don't
think that I'm issued on this podcast. I think we need to maybe rephrase it. I don't know what you call it. Emotional cheating, digital cheating, basically no touching yep, but still nuds. Is it actually a deal breaker? What is Cheryl Hines going to do now?
Okay, because this is what I'm interested in. It is definitely a deal breaker for the party sending them, Right, So I discovered that my partner has been sending news to someone else. Yes, that is absolutely cheating. What I find interesting is the denial of the party who received them.
Yeah, what if your partner just received yes?
And this is the thing, is that Paul bothers his will was trying to block her, but then apparently the images were becoming I quote increasingly pornographic, and so he did unblock them to see.
So is he So no one has managed to prove whether or not he reciprocated.
Oh God, I hope. Sorry, yeah, I hope.
So he has plausible deniability in his This was a very one sided situation.
Look, I think the deal breaker for me would have been just Robert Kennedy Junior himself, I mean everything from his He's an interesting cat in that he started as an environmentalist and got quite a lot of celebrity friends that way, but then he kind of pivoted to being an anti vaxxer.
This is way before.
COVID and recovered drug addict, isn't he.
Yeah, he's also complicated guy storied life.
Back on the nudes.
Do you know anyone in your own lives who sent an unsolicited nude to a man who hasn't asked for one who doesn't want one? Do you honestly think like you're you mean as a woman, as a woman, as a woman.
I just we love this trope.
Of the mad, obsessed, stalkery young woman coming onto the older guy, and she won't stop, and she's trying to use her body.
We know what he was saying in response, exactly right.
Because she's not leaking.
I think from this you can see his camp's leaking and trying to smear her.
She's not leaking.
So her friends are saying, well, no, that's not true. It wasn't one sided, it was two sided, and she regrets it. The other question is who leaked this, And it's been reported also that he was bragging about it, right, and then also the fact that he backed Trump, which is bizarre because Trump is the worst candidate in terms
of the environment as well as everything else. So Cheryl Hines interestingly has copped a lot of pressure in Hollywood for who she's married to, and she has sort of said because he's done things like compared vaccines to the Holocaust, and she's had to release a statement saying what he said was appalling, and it's been complicated. There's clearly been a lot of tension.
Surely this will end their marriage.
Well, I would be lately, this is it, This is the final straw.
Why would you hang around?
So?
Digital cheating is cheating. So if that is your deal breaker, you know, because some people would be like, well, maybe they've got an open relationship maybe, and she'd just be like, silly boy, you're an idiot. That's fine. And if you're not that bothered about infidelity, whatever, but if you are, like if they are supposed to be in a monogamous relationship, digital cheating is cheating, no question right.
Yeah, no question.
Yeah.
His second wife took her life during their divorce and he absolutely also smeared her like.
One of beals worst people. So it doesn't surprise me that he's pals these days with Donald Trump because feather, et cetera. So it is definitely cheating. Should she leave him, that's obviously up to her. It's very hard to imagine that she's prepared to weather this storm. Mat What does Olivia do from here unless he is, well, I feel it's sorry for Livia.
Don too.
I feel sorry for Olivia because she is undergoing right now, a public shaming and a public slot shaming of epic proportions. You know, we're sitting on the other side of the world talking about who she's sending nudes to. I get that it's ethically questionable. I get that New York mag had to say we had to suspend her, but as Jesse's already said, the piece was out. You know, I don't know.
She's very good at her job.
I don't want her to leap over. So I think it's different if you're in the camera press gallery, for example, and you're having an ongoing relationship with a politician and consistently covering them and riding glowing pieces about them, massive conflict of introes.
But she's a political.
Reporter who's well sourced in the Trump camp. He's a backer of Trump, as surrogate of Trump, is angling for a place as the health minister or the minister.
For Trump's apparently offered him a job, right.
I don't think anymore, because Trump doesn't like anyone who pulls focus and doesn't like anything negative.
Yeah, it's not great. It's not the most ethical of behavior. But she is definitely undergoing a great slut shaming right now, and I do kind of feel sorry for her about that. I think she'll survive it. I think she will. I think this is a sophisticated group of people who are you know, I'm talking about Washington reporters, and I think they're they're unlikely to throw her out on a puritanical point, but she has certainly her reputation will struggle to recover.
She might have to pivot at this point and become a commentator on Fox News.
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Do you have well being burnout? Because apparently forty five percent of us STEW and more Australians than anywhere else in the world, which is interesting. Don't know what I'm talking about. Here are some of the symptoms. You feel the pressure to project a vision of being well all the time, even if you don't really feel it. You're confused and overwhelmed about what is healthy now and what is not a complex carbs Okay, is the granola on
top of your protein rich yogurt counteracting its benefits? Is coffee the devil, etc.
Etc.
You're not sure if you should be trying to cold plunge in an actual tank of icy water or if the cold tap on the shower will do, and whether the sauna needs to be infrared to count and whether the meditation should be eyes open or eyes closed? And really did any of this happen if you didn't post about it? Ditto for your five am run. Everyone, it seems is doing one on your Instagram, but you did not. It is all making you feel exhaust and not well.
That is well being burnout. Now, I don't think I have well being burnout because I'm in one of those live seasons where I'm not doing anything for my well being except for my morning walks.
I've seen you eating cottage cheese.
Oh I am eating cottage cheese. So I'm aspiring to have a well being burnout right, But I'm feeling well being almost impossible to implement at the moment. But am I kidding myself?
Jesse?
Do I indeed have well being burned out?
Do you?
Do?
We all? And what do we do about it?
I think you have well being burnout, and I think you've been suffering from a for years.
Just to clarify, is it from doing too much wellness or from feeling overwhelmed by the wellness that other people are doing?
I think it's being overwhelmed by the mental load. And like the idea of how much you should be doing even if you're not doing it right.
I relate to this, so.
I reckon that wellness as it is currently sold to us could be a full time job. I reckon this is we love watching full time girlfriends on TikTok because their full time joe is wellness, from their smoothies to
their pilates to getting enough sleep. I remember talking years ago about this Orlando Bloom profile where he talked about his day and he would get up and he'd check how much sleep he had, and then he'd go and chant before doing his hike where he earned his breakfast and he had his brain octane power the Hollywood people do. And he plays with Lego for he's not not with his children, to be clear, for mindfulness.
If the children want to play, Lego's like, no, this is not.
My mindful anymore.
And it has been popularized by this breed of man, and I hear this in a lot of the podcasts I listened to, and I always think, where are the dependents?
I thought illness was a women's game.
I thought, I keep thinking about that guy I can't remember his name who wants to live forever.
Oh Johnson, Yes, he lives oss.
So men are the ones talking about their ice baths. They're going, you need. If I hear another man tell me how much sleep I should be getting, I'm gonna yell.
They're obsessed with it.
They're usessed.
And then you have to wake up and you have to do your journaling, yeah, and your meditation, and then your eyes bath, and then your sauna yep.
And then they're like you need to be doing. And this is what Orlando Bloom does.
He does a cheeky hour of waits every day and then you kind of do a little bit of stretching as well. And this is the thing is that I was reading this report. It was actually by Lulu Lemon, who have done a big research report on it, that said part of the burnout is conflicting information, this sense that we should be doing all of these things at once.
So even when I'm on my way home from the gym, I think I did waits today, but I'm not doing enough yoga and everyone else is running and I'm not running. I think that's another thing playing on our minds that we never know for sure whether we're doing it right because we're just so overwhelmed with all the information.
Well, it feels like there's just always more things being added.
This has come at a really interesting week for me, because as you get older as well, you've got to do more and more things.
And so, you know, I've gone to the pelvic physio this week.
I've been told I've got to do these pelvic things, but I've also got to start doing strength training for weight bearing about. And then also I think I've got roseations, so I've got a damn total like and it's all of these things, and then I feel like I should be having infra red saunas and ice baths, but that
sounds unpleasant. And also it's all expensive and all It's like wellness has been packaged up as things to sell to us because of capitalism, Jesse, which you haven't mentioned in a really long time, disappointingly, And it feels like this list of things to do and buy, I don't have the time, you know, the disposable income. It's expensive doing all of these things, and you still feel like you're not doing it right or doing it enough.
I wonder if the status of wellness, which I think holds, you know, it's number one in terms of every celebrity, is harping on about it. We do want to look well and we want to project an image of wellness.
It's like performative.
It's performative.
But I think the reason why hold such high status is because it's code for I have time and money, and they're what we're actually aspirrab.
But also the reason why it holds the status is because most of us feel tired and a little bit sick all of the time. Right. Most women in particular that I know would say that you often wake up tired, and there are a million reasons for that. They've got health niggles that they're not getting satisfying answers for their hormones are wreaking havoc in different ways. Most of us
feel kind of unwell a lot of the time. So the ultimate aspiration and we think we can see it on people's faces when we look at our Gwynit's or our Brian Johnson's or whatever, is like, oh, you must have so much energy and you must feel so great. The things I most want in my life is I want to have loads of energy and I want to feel great. It feels like if only you did this, this, this, this, you could so it's your fault that you're not feeling.
It's definitely your fault. And the thing is is that's not true. But also you're not allowed to complain about it. If you're doing all the things that you shouldn't be doing, like drinking coffee, having a glass of wine, sometimes staying in bed instead of going for a run at five o'clock, it's like, well, what do you expect, lazy come one way.
Yeah, and managing your stress feels like a full time job. But that makes me very stressed thinking about how to make because I actually don't really know how to manage it.
And then someone's like, meditate, You've got to meditate. It's like, I don't have time. I want to Every person.
Like all of the smart women I interview on mid every single one of them has told me to meditate, and I'm going to try. I don't don't what benefits from general wellness well, because as I said before, the thing I want more than anything is energy and calm. Right, So I want energy and calm. And apparently so many people I know who meditate say that's exactly what it gives them. They say it's like plugging yourself in, like you're an iPhone whose battery is low and you plug
yourself in. I downloaded an app the other day. I may have even paid for it, That is Gwyneth's app about open eye meditation. And then I realize that I don't want open eye meditation. I want to close my fucking eyes what I like. And then if I open my app and it says sit up straight, no, I want to be like, is meditation called sleep?
Anyway?
And so then I deleted the app because it made me sad. I'm like, so now I'm on a mission because these women are all smart and interesting and they say this is the key, and I'm like, okay, so I'm not doing it?
Though?
Is that because I'm.
Back to what you said, Jesse about all these wellness men who've almost gamified it and turned it into this very much sho alpha male thing like raw dogging and all of that. They don't predominantly have caring responsibilities. And the thing is that when you've got to do all of these things, you've got to take the time from somewhere. So where do you take the time from. Do you take it from work? Do you take it from your family? Do you take it from your friends? It's got to come from somewhere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The value you feel as a woman often comes from your relationship to others. So it's like the value I feel is I have to be a mother one hundred percent of the time and a worker and a wife and all of that, and that's why wellness comes last. But then it's a stick that we beat ourselves with. This Lulu Lemon research that came out that basically said that Australia is.
By all leggings, Yeah exactly right.
I would love to thank you to make them for me please, and that Australia is not doing so well when it comes to wellness burnout.
It had some ideas, right, and it said here's all you need to do, and it had three points and these are the first two points.
The first is quite the noise, And I was like, quite the noise. I can do that.
But then it said focus on mindfulness, take social media breaks, and set boundaries. People who practice meditation report twelve percent higher. And I was like, you've just given me forty five things to do. The next one do what feels good, practice doing things at your own pace, move your body, spend time in nature, use physical activity to socialize and I hate that's just fucking more work to do and my to do list is already overflowing.
You know, I've just realized something. Well, if openeym metitate is a thing, I could be meditating.
I think you are like when you used to cry in meetings silently, remember that era of your life. We could.
It's like when Mia looks at me blackly, maybe she's meditating.
I am she is definitely what I'm doing.
We can sometimes sound like wisten if you about wellness, and there is no question. The nugget of truth in all this is that women don't make time for themselves. They put themselves at the end of the list, and it's not surprising that we fall over. So it has changed my life. Going for a walk in the morning. Yeah, finding little things in my day that I do just for me. That's what self care is really meant to be, right.
It doesn't have to be about meditating. If it is, it is, but it can also be about a cup of tea and walk in the part whatever. So I feel like I should be lifting weights, meditating and running, and I'm like, can I do those all at once?
While you're meditating with your eyes open before we go.
If you are looking for something else to listen to and you're missing M Vernon, who often fills in on my mayor Out loud Our Out Loud is love. M. She is on You Beauty and that drops episodes every single week day, so she this whole hosts You Beauty on Wednesdays with Aaron Dougherty. If you've heard about a beauty trend, chances are that M has tried it.
Did you guys see this very funny boyfriend blush? Yeah?
Oh no.
I saw the one about my cellar water instead of dry shampoo, and I went, this is just yeah, true, And so they tried. They tell you whether it works and look, it's very, very satisfying. So we will pop a link in the show notes.
Now I need to a boyfriend. I'll go and listen.
It's like meditation, except not that with blush.
A massive thank you to all of you out louders for listening to us today and always, and to our fabulous team for putting this show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
PS out Louders, we were obsessed as you were, with the perfect couple, lots to talk about and so we recorded a whole subs episode where we debriefed on everything from the grea of it all, the dance scene, which was hugely controversial.
We know how hard that is me. Besides, we learned it for days. If anybody wants a.
Lot, is how the chap sounded.
I did love that whole insane scene with Liev turning up drunk and saying the starcastly and Nicole just like, oh, come.
On, come on, tag tag, come on, tag tag.
Also her brother being there and like knowing watching watching back on that scene knowing it's her brother, and she going someone's coming to the stage. She just keeps reading help over here while she keeps reading her book. That was really good and you can listen to the full episode via the link in our show notes.
Bye bye.
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