You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Jesse. The Outlouders only have one question for you, and that is, did you get your KFC on Mother's Day?
Look? I did. The Outlouders know that I've been vying to be an official KFC ambassador for most of my life. But on the way home from my parents' place is a KFC and every time I go past it, I get myself a little treat. And because it was Mother's Day, I was like, I'm going to get myself a large hot ships and a little drink. And I got myself my KFC and it was a great way to celebrate myself.
What you may notice about that story is that I purchased my OWNKFC, and I may have some feedback about that, but I loved the outlouders who messaged me and said, just letting you know I had KFC for Mother's Day. At first I thought perhaps an unusual pairing, and then they realized that it was actually perfect.
Hello and welcome to Mama Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about on Monday The twelfth of May. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
And if we sound a little bit different to you today, that's because we are all recording remotely. As many out louders know, we are on the road at the moment. We are in Brisbane and Sydney this week and there's a lot of stuff going on. So if we sound a little bit like we're not in studio, that's why. But on the show today it sounds like a simple question, but this year it feels like the opposite. Who is
Mother's Day four? Also, one of the biggest millennial celebrities looks like he's been having a slow motion breakdown for years. After all we learned from Brittany, Should we be better at understanding what's going on with Justin Bieber? And is it okay to film at concerts? One of the coolest stars in the world says no, But first, Mia Friedman.
In case you missed it, Weight Watchers has filed for bankruptcy. They filed for Chapter eleven bankruptcy in the US this month because they have a whole lot of debt. They've got like two and a half billion dollars Australian in debt. So what this means is it's a financial restructuring. It's not a liquidation. The company is going to continue operating and services are going to continue uninterrupted. They've got about three million members around the world, including in Australia, so
don't panic if you are a weight Watches member. But the reason for this is that it's basically been swallowed by prescription weight loss drugs, things like a Zampik and Munjaro and Mungovi. You might remember that Oprah became a shareholder in weight Watches in exchange, I think for her endorsement. But then soon after that she said that she was on one of the golp one drugs, and I think
that experience has obviously been really, really common. So they are planning to emerge from bankruptcy about forty days after they sort of restructure themselves more into a telehealth business and they will be offering prescription weight loss medications alongside their traditional programs.
What do you think So that sounds like a kind of colab right. They're like, we can't necessarily compete anymore with this new technology, so we need to be part of that and that maybe they should have seen that coming a bit earlier.
Yeah, every sort of weight loss company that I've seen adds for recently seems to have to acknowledge the elephant in the room, which is weight loss injections. But reading this story, it just highlighted for me how much our understanding of weight loss and dieting has evolved. I remember growing up and a lot of people's mums were doing weight watches and it was all about the point system and you could have that brownie and you could have that glass of wine, but then you might skip lunch.
I'm sure that's not what Weight Watches was actually saying, but that's how some people were using that point system. And then, of course in twenty eighteen, I think Weight Watchers saw the writing on the wall and rebranded as ww because they knew that that term and even the explicit reference to weight didn't sit comfortably with women. We talk a fair bit about weight loss injections, but it's worth remembering that the success rate of diets is between
one and five percent. Going on a diet did not work for people, and I do think that there is a place for companies, whether it's WWU or I've had a few other brands talk about it. Just because you're on weight loss injections doesn't mean that you're not interested in your health and making sure that you're eating the right foods and fueling your body. So I do think that there's a place for those two things to come together and to help people with health literacy.
Yeah, because at their best, those kind of groups are basically support groups. Right, So it seems so outdated now, but the original weight watchers people had public ways supposed to be to hold you accountable and also to give you other people to talk to about your weight. And it's so funny, as you've said, Jesse, the culture shifted on this a while ago, because now it seems really strange that you would reward the person with the lowest number in the group and everybody'd be like, go Betty
and all that kind of stuff. But on the other hand, when you are trying to change something as significant as how you eat or something about your health a body, it can be really lonely. It can genuinely be really lonely, especially if you feel a level of shame attached to it, which many women do. So the idea of having this sort of community I think still has a place, but yeah, it's every rule is having to be rewritten in the face of this new medicine.
It also made me think about how weight watches or WW and I think that this is a nature of diets when you're doing something like this, or when someone is on a diet, it seems to only turn up the food noise. And what these injections appear to be doing and what a lot of people who take them say is that it turns it town. I think that's really interesting. It's like the more that we talk about it and obsess over everything that goes into our mouth, the worse the problem can become, or the more all
consuming it can become. So it's it's a very interesting evolution.
Wait watches local business here in Australia just confirming they say they're here to stay and they will continue to operate as usual. The Australian services will not be affected by the US restructuring process.
In case you missed it, Taylor Swift has been subpoenaed in the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni case. And does that mean that we will finally be able to read all of Taylor Swift's text messages. Well, here is what happened. Baldoni's lawyer, Brian Friedman.
No relation.
To get the gossip, the gossip that man would have. Oh my god, I think you're.
Very much.
I think there's a connection. I think it has the same interesting.
It's bringing my name into disrepute.
The subpoena was issued last week. Now reminder, a subpoena is a legal document issued by a court that compels a person to either attend a hearing or a trial. Maybe they have to give evidence or produce documents related to the case. A representative for Swift said the subpoena was purely to draw public interest and has nothing to do with focusing on the facts of the case. They added, Taylor Swift never set foot on the set of this movie. She was not involved in any casting or creative decisions.
She did not score the film. She never saw an edit or made any notes on the film. She did not even see It Ends with Us until weeks after its public release, and was traveling around the globe during twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four, headlining the biggest tour in history. Now this is important because there is a theory floated by an anonymous emailer who contacted des Moi saying that the subpoena is being used strategically to
basically expose Blake Lively as a liar. Now, remember Blake Lively when all those her Takes messages came out, she used Taylor Swift almost as a point of leverage in saying, I've got these dragons on my side. She used this Game of Thrones analogy, and she said that Ryan Reynolds and Taylor Swift help her creatively a lot. Basically, Baldoni's team say that she almost used Taylor Swift as a threat to suggest like, I've got all this power and I'm taking over this movie. I've got the backing of
one of the most famous women in the world. And the theory goes that Baldoni's lawyers will argue that she used Taylor's name to take over the movie, when in fact, Taylor had nothing at all to do with the movie, and it basically paints Blake Lively as someone who doesn't tell the truth, which is what you want in a case like this. Maya what do you think?
Ooh, shots fired by my girl Tree Payne. Tree Payne is the legendary publicist of Taylor Swift with the best name in the whole world. She's formidable and one of my Roman empires since this began. Is just how pissed Tree would be to have Taylor's name brought into this absolute shit fight between Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. I think it's an interesting idea that this has been used to flush out Taylor in terms of they knew that
by subpoena ing her, she would protest. There are a lot of people who've protested about being dragged into this and about being subpoened. Is Justin Baldoni trying to turn this into a media circus? Absolutely, But I think my understanding of this is that Blake would have probably said something to him dropping Taylor's name. He's then perceived that as her weaponizing Taylor, and so he's flipped it and said, well,
game on, let's do this. And so what Taylor has done, or Tree has done on Taylor's behalf by distance seeing herself massively from Blake and from the movie is to basically say in a line that Taylor herself coined around the whole Kim Kardashi and Kane West thing is I wish to be removed from this narrative. I don't have
a dog in this fight. This is not me. But by the same token, she went on to say in a later part of that statement that this is a case about sexual harassment and intimidating women, which is very much on black side. So she's not saying this is between two people, and allegedly she's drawing a line in the sound about where she stands and who she backs and what she thinks this case is about. But she's saying I'm out.
Yeah, it's being read a lot as far as I can see, as Taylor distancing herself from Blake. But actually there's a way of reading it that's supportive, as you kind of point out me, which is that she's actually saying to Justin Baldoni, stop trying to bring me into this, like this has got nothing to do with me. I don't want to be part of it. I think the reporting which is everybody saying, oh, she's telling Blake to
back off. If they're really good friends, if they've been really good friends for forever, then of course they would talk about work. Everybody does, And I think you could definitely read this as her just saying justin, don't try and drag me into it.
So what do you think we'll get, because we're probably not going to get her text messages? Right, But do you see a world in which she's actually summoned to the trial or do you think that this is just a play in a game of chess to get a statement like this?
So that's what the statement is designed to do. It's to basically flag this is an attention grab, this is a circus. Trying to involve Taylor is really a tactic and she's got nothing to add to this legal case. And so it's then up to the judge whether she is deposed or whether some documents are subpoened. You know, that's a call for the judge to make. It was Mother's Day in Australia yesterday and something I noticed is that things went a little bit berserk online and also
on my phone. If you own a phone and you're on social media, and even if you're not, even if you just have a phone and you've got text messages, I noticed a real change this year in the amount
of mental load that was required on Mother's Day. It all started as soon as I turned my phone on when I got a lot of messages in my group chats and from girlfriends and in family group chats, Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers, and lots of validation and acknowledgment of what a wonderful job we do, which seems lovely. But then I was like, oh God, do I have to reply to all these messages? Do I have to message all the mothers that I know? Which
is a lot? And then I looked on social media, and it often is a frenzy on Mother's Day of women posting about their mothers, sometimes their mothers in law. Less that, but now I noticed this year a couple of different things. People were posting about themselves as mothers and thanking their children, and it just became, I don't know, it was like everybody had to do all this work to include everybody and make everybody felt included. Jesse Hoole, what was your experience yesterday?
I think Mother's Day has become a very dangerous day. Dangerous is the word I would use to describe it. And it is dangerous because there is no card, there is no gift that could possibly capture the work and the sacrifice that goes into one of the most undervalued jobs that anyone ever does, and because there is so little external validation every other day of the year, I think that probably waking up on Mother's Day it feels like a trap for a lot of people, and I
think that women are shouldering this burden. So I would be really interested in speaking to retail workers about who's buying the majority of Mother's Day gifts because I think daughters are acknowledging their mothers. I think the people that I got the most messages from were other mothers, as you say, Maya, saying you're doing a great job. I
see you, I value what you do. And then I saw at one point I was scrolling through my Instagram feed and as you say, Mea, it was like all these mothers posting about being mothers, which I get, and I loved it, and I love seeing photos of people's families. But I thought, is this US posting because we, again we do not get any other external validation. Is this us saying I am here. I want to be seen. I want my work to be seen, and I do not feel like I am surrounded by people who see me.
And Amy Girard, who's a author and radio host, posted late last night, just going glad.
Mother's Days over. I did pull out a little violin for myself yesterday and rightly, so you know, I feel alive. I am very low maintenance. I really don't ask much. I don't expect gifts. I don't expect much on Mother's Day. But here's what I do expect. If you can't my load, like I mean, at the end of the day, washing
still needs to get done. Kids still need to be fed. Now, if you can't lighten my load and do the washing for me, and I don't know, just help me to relax for the day, then at least be nice to me, you know.
Just be nice to me.
I think the saddest part is I must have gotten over two thousand replies to that story from other moms just saying feels like I've felt like a piece of today as well, Like it's one fucking day, guys, what fucking day.
I think that there's a bit of an epidemic of that, if we're honest.
My mother's Day, which was perfectly pleasant, is simplified by the fact that I don't have in laws here anymore with rens mom, is it with us anymore? My parents live on the other side of the world. And obviously those things are painful on Mother's Day, but they make it easier because it's only about me their house. Not that it was it was about sport and washing and
all those things. But a shift that I noticed this year online was I saw more than one, in fact, many tiktoks and in sturreels from mothers saying older mothers of adult children step aside. This is not your day. It's personified by this little grab.
You know.
The one thing I will never understand on Mother's Day is grandmothers and mothers who only want to be celebrated. But they don't want to celebrate their daughter or their daughter in law.
For giving them grandbabies, but they want to be celebrated as a mother and a grandmother.
It's weird.
It's weird behavior. I don't know any women who would be like that, but it's clearly a common feeling because I saw another post from someone saying if you have adult children and they have children, this day is no longer about you, step aside, and I was like, oh, I thought it was still about you, Mia. Isn't Mother's Day still about you as well as about the mother of your son's child.
It's funny you say that, because this mother's more than any other. I felt the politics of it all in that I wanted to see my mother in law. I wanted to see my mother. Of course, I wanted to see all of my children. But then my eldest son, he also has a mother in law and I'm his mother, but then he's also got to be the avatar for his wife, who's a mother. And it's so funny because on the day before Mother's Day, my mother in law came over with flowers for me, and she always gets
her daughter and daughters in law flowers. And then I suddenly thought, oh, I should get Jesse something from Luna. And so I was like, I need to go to office works and get a like a one of those frames, and then I've got to put all the photos in it. And then I was like, I'm too tired this idea of now we've got to celebrate our children and our daughters in law and sons in law for giving us grandback, Like can I just have a of tea and some toast in bed? Like what happened to that? Yeah? Have
made card a little past a bracelet. That's all I want.
That's exactly what I got, because life's got too complicated over your way now.
I think when the pie starts to feel too small, women turn on each other because it's like, there isn't enough pie for you to be celebrated and me to be celebrated. And as the mother of a small child, she cannot yet say to me, mummy, you are doing the best job in the whole world. You are the best mum. I need my husband to be doing that. So I think that's part of the etiquette rule, is that if you have small kids, then someone in their lives needs to do it because their child is not
going to do it for them. I was reading yesterday about the story of how Mother's Day started. Have you guys heard this story.
Before from the gift card company? No?
No, Colleen, you cynic. You're a cynic, Hollywayen right.
No.
It was started by a woman named Anna Jarvis who decided to mark the day after losing her mum. And this was at the beginning of the twentieth century. Her mom died the year before, and she decided that it was about celebrating the invisible work that mothers do in a specific type of love, and really it was about for her, it was about a mother that she'd lost, and then she became the fiercest campaigner in the world to make
it stop. She hated Mother's Day. By the time of her death, she was just like, make it stop because she was revolted by how capitalism, yes commercialized, it became. She was like, don't you dare jump on this flower companies, That's not what this is about. It was meant to be about just seeing each other. So she was the biggest lobbyist for abolishing it.
In the end, I do send messages to my single mom friends on Mother's Day because the ain't nobody bringing them a cup of tea in bed. But the biggest transition I noticed in my house is when your kids
are little and lunar, isn't they yet? But you've got years ahead of this, as Mia just said, pastor bracelets, twenty five tiny scrappy cards that they were forced to make a primary school, and kindy lists of things at my mom and then there's always something embarrassing like drinks, wine in the kitchen or whatever it is that you get loads of that. But then, because now both my kids are in high school, crickets not of that, So I this is what I did. I told them before
the day that I still wanted that shit. I was like, I know, you don't have to go and do it, and they did to a point. So needs expressed.
Gifts art my love language. But I'm strict about cards and I expect them on my birthday and on Mother's Day. Except this year, I actually decided, do you know what, because I know that my kids just get exhausted, particularly my male kids, get exhausted with the idea of writing cards. So I was like, you know what, I'm fine, I don't need it this year. And I said that in the family group chat and then they all came up with, wait, this is a trap. Yeah, this is a trap.
We've played this game before and it doesn't I was like, no.
No, no, it's not a test. It's not a trap. I mean it. And then the next day, two out of my three children did not fall for the trap. Not that with the chap, but I got cards from two of them and a present from one of them that I know that Jesse bought.
I did.
It was a lovely gift.
I love it so much. Next a millennial superstar appears to be in free fall. What is going on with Justin Bieber. I've done things that have hurt others. I sometimes worry I'm going to be exposed if I tell people how selfish I am. And I've been really asking God to help me see the best in people. This is how some of the most recent posts from one of the most famous men in the world and one
of the biggest millennial celebrities begin. If you follow Justin Bieber on social and many hundreds of millions of people do, you will have seen notes posts like those popping up a lot on his feed lately, alongside blurry shots of him dancing, eyes hardly open, clouds of smoke, pictures being uploaded and taken down, many repeated shots of his golf swing not sure what that's about, and plenty of picks of his mates hanging around watching hockey and making sort
of repetitive soundless motions. If you're watching any of the celebrity gossip sites, you're seeing a whole lot more Biber clashing with paparazzi, Biber clearly out of it at Coachella, and you're probably reading headlines about his involvement as a child with p Diddy, who is about to be at the center of a massive sexual assault trafficking court case. You're hearing about legal clashes with his former management and losing money on a canceled tour, and new music is
very hard to find. And after those posts that I read out at the beginning today, which were the beginnings of these sort of very introspective, very sad kind of reflections, you're seeing a whole fresh round of fears for Bieber headlines Jesse. We have seen millennial celebrities in personal freefall on social media before, most notably, of course, Britney Spears. What are you feeling about what's going on with Justin ba.
I think we've all had the experience of being on social media and seeing someone that we're close to post things that are unusual, that are out of character, that might seem to be a call for help. When that content is being posted by someone who is one of the most followed people in the world on Instagram, that becomes very unusual and an interesting thing for us to grapple with. I think Justin Bieber he was discovered on YouTube when he was twelve. He is now thirty one.
He has been famous for eighteen years, right, He in fact was discovered in his career launched in the same year that Britney Spears attacked that car with an umbrella. And I think that there is something almost serendipitous about that crossover because we have seen, you know, whether it's
mental health issues or the price of fame. We've been discussing this since Judy Garland, Like this isn't entirely new to our age, but we now see the cracks start to show in real time via social media, and it's really difficult because people can talk about sort of concern trolling or pretending like you're concerned. But I was a massive fan of Justin Bieber in those early days and I really liked his music and to see the unusual content that he's posting, because it can be kind of
hard to miss. Sometimes it's posted and then it's removed. He will be half dressed, he'll kind of have his arm in one side of his jumper. And then I think, in particular the clips from Coachella most recently, where he is clearly smoking weed and in one he's beside his fifteen year old brother and it appears that Hailey Bieber moves the brother out of the way. She seems to be the one in all of those videos that are often taken from fan or just people walking past who's
trying to keep the illusion that everything is okay. But even from his posture to his facial expressions, he looks like he's under the influence of something and like he's not thriving. And there was a quote by an author who wrote a book most recently about Britney Spears, who said his name is Jeff Weiss, and he said that Justin bieber at this stage of his life will have basically never had an honest interaction with anyone because of how early he found fame and how all of the
people around him have tried to leach off him. He's fallen out with record labels and now he's independent, and those people are actually saying he removes himself from anyone who says no to him. I just don't know how you navigate this and come out the other end as a balanced, healthy person with your ego in check.
Beyonce, did It's possible Justin Timberlake much did?
He's had his own issues justin Timia, Yeah.
Of course, but not like this complete public immolation. I think what's interesting is the we have to be sort of euphemistic when we talk about mental health issues often, and what about substance abuse, what about addiction? And I know that those things can be blurry.
I think that substance abuse and addiction are so inextricably tied to mental health issues, right.
Yes, But you know you were saying about stimisms, the euphemisms in the mainstream media in inverted commas, the euphemisms around what's going on with Justin Bieber. I feel like the mainstream media is treating him with kid gloves in a way. The commentary about what he was like at Coachella, just saying things like he was seen smoking around his brother. If you see those videos, this is not a guy who's just had a joint in a beer. He is
barely conscious. And I think all the time, if that was Hailey Bieber, who has they have a ten month old baby, I think behaving like that in a public place, can you imagine the headlines? But Mia, to your point about the big stars like Beyonce and just In Timberlake. You can't turn Fame off, but you could turn Instagram off, couldn't you Like if you're just in Bieber. Do you think there's a way that he could retreat from this scrutiny and reality?
I mean, of course there is, but I mean we even saw it with Britney Spears. You're talking about a generation who that's their only ability to have direct contact
with the world and with their audience. Everything else is what's written about them, or what's said about them, or the photos that are taken off them and videos by perhaps And you know, there's so many layers to the Couchella vision, isn't there because Hailey Bieber was there, And not that we want to make a woman responsible for the actions of her partner, but the decision to allow him to be in public in that way whenevery's got their phones out, you know, it's just so sad and
it speaks to the struggle that must go on behind the scenes for her, you know. And he's a new father. That's the other thing. As you said, Ohole, that's just so heartbreaking, and people don't seem to take into account. I mean, people would be calling child services if that was Hailey Biber, wouldn't they and expressing fear for the child, But no one even mentions that he's a dad.
And by contrast, Hailey Bieber is so controlled, so together, so standing up straight, never appears to be under the influence of anything. And I reject what you say about letting him out in public. I think that we even saw this with Britney Spears, Like just because you're having some struggles doesn't mean that you don't have agency that you have the right to assert like.
Oh, I would say that he should not be in public like that. There's just absolutely no way, there isn't no one could argue that was a good decision for him. And I'm not saying that she has the power. She's not his guardian. She can't constrain him. There is no conservativeship over him, and there is never any prospect of
that even being raised after what happened with Brittany. Back to your point about Instagram, I think that you're talking about a generation of stars, that and generation of people not just stars, where Instagram and their connection to social media is so intrinsic to who they are and their identity that taking that away from them is almost a breach of their human rights, Like according to.
Them, do you think that we've got a lot better understanding how to talk about this stuff. You know a lot of one of the reasons I think I said before that I think a lot of the coverage of Biba is sympathetic, and probably rightly so, because we do understand the toll of child stardom. We do understand that clearly he was in some very unhealthy situations. I mean the P Diddy stuff for starters, But he's talked himself about mental health, about drug abuse, about physical health. We're
much more literate. I think we've moved on from the place where we used to just be but you've got everything well happy, Like I think we're out of that. But now what do we do? And when I say, I mean maybe we don't do anything, but I mean watching somebody disintegrate like this in public while generally professing that everything's okay. Like one of the only link on Justin Bieber's Instagram that he sends you to is one for a prayer app for example, right generally sort of
suggesting that everything's okay. What should people do?
Like?
Is it the kindest thing to turn away? Is it the kindest thing to engage?
That's a very good point that you've made about the p Diddy element, because there's a lot that we don't know, but we know that Justin Bieber as a young man had close proximity to P Diddy, who is now Obviously there are a lot of allegations against him and the parties that he.
Had to Just add to that, Jesse is some people have been not necessarily suggesting any direct abuse, but saying that from a very young age moving in that circle, he was introduced to lots of very inappropriate situations at a time in life when he was not able to cope with and drugs are included in that. Of course, it is.
As though a lot of people are waiting for the Britney Spears moment, or are waiting for the moment when do.
You mean the umbrella moment? I mean we're watching it in real time surely.
Yeah.
And people who know addicts or people who struggle with severe mental health issues will relate to this that it's like when will the moment come and what will the moment look like? Because there are other parts of it where Justin Bieber recently was approached by paparazzi and people are sharing this video saying, oh, he doesn't seem all right, but He basically looked at the paparazzi and said, money, money, money, that's all you care about. You don't care about humanity.
I thought, that's totally coherent and makes sense to me. He's been frustrated by the paparazzi for most of his life. But he also in an interview a few years ago, he was talking about Billie Eilish and he became really teary in it and said, I just want to protect her.
It was hard for me being that young and being in the industry and not knowing where to turn and everyone telling me they loved me and turning their back on you in a secon There's this theory about fame that for the people who are plucked out of obscurity.
Britney Spears and Justin Bieber are two of the best examples of this, whose families did not have a lot of resources, who had no experience with fame, who were thrust into the limelight overnight, did not have the infrastructure to deal with any of this, and in fact, with a lot of the criticism about the NEPO babies, even Hailey Bieber, she had some context, like she had people in her family who understood how we deal with this, maybe had contacts with the right people, knew when to
turn comments off and when not to post in all of this, and it's like Bieber never inherited that knowledge, and they're the people I probably worry about the most.
For those not familiar with Hailey Bieber, of course, she was Hailey Baldwin. She is the niece of Alec Baldwin and the daughter of one of his brothers, whose nac dary I get all the Baldwines a bit confused. But she is also an incredible beauty entrepreneur. She's got a beauty business called Road which is apparently set to be sold for you know, billions of dollars potentially coming up.
And you're right, she's always the absolute antithesis of him in how she holds herself together publicly, and you know, has quite a mask in public which you can really really understand. But you know, it wasn't long ago that we lost lie in pain right from one direction, and everything that was going on there that we didn't see play out in real time. If you didn't know him, looking at his Instagram and you know, even the paparazzi shots, you would not have known what was going on behind
the scenes. It doesn't look like a good industry to get involved in if you're a kid, does it no?
And it also looks like fame is one of those things that even though we've heard this story, as you made the point at the beginning, Jesse with Judy Garland, even though we've heard this story over and over again, it's something that people desperately want and desperately chase, even though they know it's desperately bad for them.
After the break, the high profile artist who had some feedback for his audience at a recent concert, We will tell you more.
In a moment.
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link at the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week. And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers into mine.
All Nick cave Write a musician an actor wants you to put your goddamn phone away at concerts. Earlier this month, the sixty seven year old was performing in the US when he knocked a phone out of a fan's hand in frustration. There are reports that he has been frequently imploring fans to put away their phones during performances on this tour and instead try to connect with the music. Cave is not the only artist who has had enough
with the phones. Randy Blythe, who is the lead singer of a heavy metal band called Lamb of God, said in a podcast interview last year, this is a quote. I'm gonna set it down in the middle of the stage after a song or two, and then I'm going to turn on my phone and I'm going to point it at the audience and I'm going to sit there and I'm going to sing a whole song. I'm not gonna move. I'm going to do what they do. And then at the end, I'm going to say, did you people enjoy that?
No?
I didn't either, So why don't we be here together? Put your frickin' phone down. I had never considered before what the experience of everyone watching a concert through their phones would be like for the actual performer you perform, especially like a Nick Cave who is a certified artiste, because you want to connect and you want to see faces, and instead they're being confronted with thousands of screens. Holly, do you reckon that? Everyone should just put their phone down. Isn't that simple.
I think everybody should put their phone down, not necessarily because of the sense of artists, but because most of us. Unless you're in the front row at a concert and you get amazing footage that you can share with the world and they all go, wow, that's what it's like
being front row. Taylors with what you actually get at most concerts that you spent your whole night filming is like a couple of blurry dots in the background and your terrible voice really really loudly screaming the lyrics to your favorite song, and then you're looking back and you're like, why did I film that? I Am never going to look at that ever again. So yes, I do. But some artists do band phones, right, so Alicia Keys, Jack White,
they've banned phones before. I've been a big performance. It's not concerts true before where you have to put your phone in a yonder pouch like one of those fum black bags. And I think if you're powerful enough you can do that. It's very expensive to do that, but then it comes with a downside because don't you want everyone to see how good you are in concert? Mia, what do you think.
I think that when we film at concerts, it's actually not about the person we're filming, but it's about us and our identity. Because, first of all, one thing that the iPhone and smartphones have given us is this obsession with documenting everything. But the reason we document it is around identity and wanting other people to understand us. So it's not so much about you know. Megan Michael on the weekend posted shots and video of her and Harry at the Beyonce concert with some friends.
Did she me or I missed that? I know, you know I missed that.
I actually love that she's posting this kind of content. Now. I think it's exactly the kind of content that she should be posting. But it's not just actually about Beyonce, because as you say, oh, I couldn't see Beyonce, I couldn't really see anything. I could just see her and Harry. So I'm not singling her out for this. This is what we all tend to do. I did the exact
same thing when I went to see Taylor Swift. I wanted to say, I am a person who goes and sees Taylor Swift, and I like Taylor Swift, and it was about what that's about me more than the tailor of it all. But from an artist's point of view, I also think you're playing for an audience who've paid money to see you there, right, So the people in that audience probably like you if they've spent, in most
cases hundreds of dollars to come and see you. But as soon as they film something and put it online to people who aren't invested in you in any way, who paid no money to see you, who weren't there, who didn't see the whole thing, suddenly that footage can become weaponized. And we've really seen that with Katy Perry recently. With Taylor Swift, it was different. There was lots of stuff posted, and her fans really enjoyed watching the concerts in other places and it was a sort of a
sense of community. It wasn't weaponized and used to humiliate her or make a point about her, But with Katy Perry it was. And immediately you kind of breached the intimacy of a concert. Even if there's tens of thousands of people that are there, they're all in this contract with the performer that they really liked the performer. So it's a self selected audience, but the Internet turns it into something else.
Yeah, you strip it of all context, but there's a propensity as well. And I am guilty of this as much as anyone. That you have certain moments in life where you think, I want everyone to feel what I feel right now, and our impulse to capture that feeling is to get our phone out. And it's always funny because someone gets their phone out and takes a video and no one can feel what you've felt in that
moment because they weren't in the room with you. In saying that, Luca recently went and saw Hans Zimmer, who is this incredible musician, and he came home and just said, that was a spiritual experience. It was amazing. I loved it, loved it, and it was a shame that I missed it. I couldn't experience it with him. And we've been watching tiktoks of it, and in fact I can feel it a little bit. He did a lot of the music behind The Lion King, and so seeing him do that
live and Interstellar and all of these incredible. It's an orchestra on stage. Firstly, Luca can then show me what he saw. And secondly, it is the best free publicity any artist could ever hope for, because then that goes viral and then you sell tickets, which is another reason. I think probably a lot of artists are not saying lock your phones away.
I think it should be up to them, though, don't you like? I feel like if Nick cave like he also at his shows in Lady Years, he also talks a lot. He shares a lot about grief. It's one of the things that's part of his show and is sort of part talking, part music. And as you say, Jesse, the idea of him doing that to just a wall of screens, it would entirely change the experience. So I sort of feel like the artist has every right to tell you not to do it if they don't want you to, don't you.
I reckon, it's got to be the policy. I mean, you can have a policy that's put phones away. But humans are, by nature we copy each other. So I've been in situations where everyone has their phone out and I go, oh, I guess we're filming this, and then I kind of get my phone out and do the same thing, which is what an audience will do. I was looking at this story though, and for Nick Cave to have knocked a phone out of someone's hand, they must be pretty close, like to have.
Someone down arena shows. These are theaters.
Yeah, there is something intimate about that. There was footage of him about six months ago saying film me, now you've got your phones out, and then all of you put your fucking phones away. Now the irony of that is it guess how I know that happened. Someone filmed
it and put it on the internet. So everything you say this has happened with Australian artists where they've gone to make a point about a political issue on stage that makes sense within context, that starts with one thing, it ends with another thing, and you cut the fifteen seconds and then that goes viral and then they get
canceled for something that wasn't all within context. I've felt that at our live shows, where I've thought, oh, if someone just filmed that twenty seconds, that would not be very flattering, and it can make you feel unsafe and make for a much worse show. If you don't want phones, you probably just have to make it the policy and say all phones away.
I don't think you can have both I agree.
Phones are the new autographs. Selfies of the new autographs. It's like I was there. I had this proximity to this person irl ironically not through a screen or you know, through a speaker, but I was actually there. But something that is not helpful to do if this happened to me. A couple of weeks ago, I had a friend who went to this concert, loved it, came back and wanted to play everybody this clip from the concert. And I was like, if I wanted to watch this person, I
would have gone to the concert. Like, I'm not that interested. But then when someone hands you their phone and says, watch this, you're a bit stuck.
There's another artist as well who has said you would not believe how awkward it is. I don't know if you've seen this online, but people at a concert and they're not filming the performer, they're filming themselves.
Happened a lot of Taylor.
Yeah, Taylor, that's constant.
I feel like there should be a window. I feel like there should be a window that is allowed where you go. Right, I'm about what's like we're about to do shake it off or whatever we're about to do. Everybody go Ham with your phones, but then come back
to us, because it does take you far away. And I drove a whole car of teenagers back from a concert recently and had to, to your point, Mia, listen to their entire concert with again them screaming really loudly at the top of their voice, and I know what hell is now?
What They've playing their videos in the car.
Because they were just choosing which bits they were going to post and their sharing with each other, and it was very much the thing.
And it's just them just going aha at the top of their voices, this artist said. He said, there is nothing more awkward than watching someone film themselves. Listening to me, it is the most It is no longer a connecting experience. It is a bizarrely isolated one.
Out Louders, We'll be seeing you in Brisbane on Wednesday this week and in Sydney on Saturday. What's going to happen? Will you film us? We'll wholly knock your phone out of your hand. Might Jesse flash you? Unlikely, but could happen.
A massive thank you out Louders for being with us today on Monday's show, and to our fabulous team for putting the show together a higher degree of difficulty when we are all in different places. We are going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Bye bye bye.
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