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Hello and welcome.
To Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the seventh of August.
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm me of Friedman, and.
I'm Jesse Stevens. And I'm sorry I was away the other day. I was sick and I really had foma. I really wanted to be on that episode.
Because it wasn't about She was happy to have missed it.
Yes, that that I was happy about. But em filled in and did a brilliant job.
On today's show with Jesse Stevens, things.
Just got weird.
How a schoolyard insult has become the most effective political strategy in the US election, and why the man who coined it is Kamala's new right hand man. Also, there's worms in the village food and a very hot man sleeping in a park. Yes, it's an expert Olympic roundup, and the truth counsel friendship theory. One of the world's richest women says she runs every big decision by three specific people and it's what you don't want to talk
to them about that teaches you the most. But first, Jesse Stevens.
In case you missed it, Ben Affleck has been described as the most divorced man you've ever seen, the actor who, as far as we know, is still married to Jennifer Lopez. No ring though, no ring, but sometimes ring. I went through the timeline yesterday in granular detail, and every time you like the rings off, the ring comes back on.
Jalo's moved her engagement ring to her right hand, and I don't think she's wearing her wedding ring anymore now.
Want This divorce has been going on now for a while, and nobody is giving us any reason to believe it is untrue.
So we needed the last piece of evidence that this was true right now.
If it wasn't enough that they solved their marital.
Home and Ben bought a home of his own in a different on a.
Different very different somehow exactly.
And was not in attendance on her Bridgeston themed birthday.
Past and Jaylo also canceled her summer tour to spend time with family. Why do we not?
That was all the evidence we could just pull out without having done any research or.
Made any notes. Literally none. I really worry about my brain. Okay, Jesse, Okay.
The evidence we needed is Ben Affleck being photographed in la He was photographed, as.
Maya would say, this is not a visual medium's visual medium.
But I'm going to describe what he looks like. It's his haircut. I think it's called a faux hawk, which is where the sides of your hair are kind of light shaved, and then it's a bit longer on top. It's a young people's.
Haird like a really severe undercut. Yeah, and it goes high up past three years.
He also had aviators on a leather biker jacket that he was wearing on his motorcycle the backpack, and he also had the slim fitted jeans. One tweet red, we are reaching levels of divorced never before seen by man, and another said the male mind forty eight hours after
a breakup needs to be studied. There was also an imagined conversation between him and his barber where the barber says, what'll it be and he says, I'm getting a divorce and the barber says, say no more, and he gives him that haircut.
Oh, it's so like, we shouldn't be laughing about somebody's heartbreak. But it's also so funny because why are not all men, some middle aged men just so predictable. Yes, we're breaking up, I really need a faux hook. Remember when he broke up with Jen Garner and he got that back tattoo that goes all the way from his neck right down to the bottom of.
It, Like, and we're all predictable. Women get haircuts too, women get post divorce haircuts. But his haircut is very I mean I've seen it on dozens of men that are walking around going I'm single, I'm on the market. I've got my jacket on.
I know someone quite well who got divorced in his early thirties. Same haircut or a motorcycles, it's a playbook. I think it's like an instinctive thing, you know, how like salmon instinctively know where to swim. It's not like, and this was many years ago before social media was a thing. I think they just instinctively know they like it out a flimming pigeon or a salmon.
I need a motorbike under my legs.
Yeah, I need a motorbike between my legs and I need a lot less hair.
So this is Google search as for weird, it's up twenty two percent.
My god, over the last week.
Why the race for the presidential election in the US just got really weird in a good way? In case you missed it, Kamala Harris has picked her running mate. There's been a lot of contention, controversy, mystery about who she'd pick. It was between a couple of white guys, and she picked the one called Tim Walls. He is sixty years old. And if you said, Siri, show me a picture of a really kind grandpa, you would see a picture of Tim Walls.
And he's not a grandpa, is he?
He's not a grandpa. In fact, it's alarming for me to realize he's only a few years old.
On me, I felt the same way.
And I was like a grandma, So what are you know?
It's interesting though, because Kamala is fifty nine and he's sixty, and you put them next to each other and it is very much like this is what sixty looks like for men and women. That's very different.
They are contemporaries, but they look almost of slightly different generations. So why did she pick him. I'm so glad you asked few key reasons. The first is that he is going to be very good in appealing to Midwestern voters. So the swing states, which are the ones that in Australia we would call them marginal seats, the ones that the Democrats need to win to win government. They are rural states, Midwestern states like Pennsylvania. He is the Minnesota
governor and he's very popular. Joined the army at seventeen. He was in the army for twenty four years, then he decided to become a teacher, retrained. He's been a longtime advocate for women's reproductive rights. He's also got some really great plucky dad vibes. There was a video that went viral in the last couple of weeks where he
was at a state fair with his daughter. It shows him screaming on a ride called a slingshot, and then he's encouraging her to eat a corn dog and she's like, Dad, I can't, I'm a vegetarian, and he goes, we'll then have turkey. He's very funny. But the whole reason that he has shot to prominence. He went to the top of the leader board really fast. A few weeks ago, no one had even heard of him.
No, I was hearing Shapiro. I was hit like a.
Lot of people were saying Shapiro up to two days ago. Yeah, yeah, because Pennsylvania.
As you said, yes, he is the governor of Pennsylvania. But the reason that Tim Woles came in out of nowhere to the top of the leader board was because he did an interview where he referred to JD. Vance, the new Republican vice presidential candidate, as weird. Here is a little bit of that interview. These are weird people on the other side.
They want to take books away, they want to be in your exam rooms.
That's what it comes down to it.
Don't you know, get sugarcoating this.
These are weird ideas. Listen to them speak. So after he did that interview, because you know, they've tried lots of different words. How do you describe Donald Trump and a threat to democracy and an existential threat and JD. Vance and conflicted felon, Yeah, all of those things. But weird was just a very down home way to describe some of his behavior. Like he talked about, you know, he hugs a flag and he goes I love a flag too, but it's a bit weird, like hugging a flag.
That interview went viral and it was immediately picked up by other Democrats and clearly became part of their messaging because then you heard a whole lot of other Democratic candidates and governors and surrogates for Kamala using that word weird.
Well, it's just weird, and every day it comes out Vance has done something more extreme, more weird.
It's not just a weird stuff that he brings, it's that this leads to weird policy.
We're using this fake living room to talk to you about a super weird idea from JD.
Vance. So these guys are just weird. That's where they are.
So fascist depend on fear. The fascist depend on us going back.
But we're not.
Afraid of weird people.
We were a little bit creeped out, but we're not afraid.
Holly, I want to ask you what do you think about the use of the word weird because Hillary Clinton, we know, kind of ended her campaign in some ways when she described Donald Trump supporters of a basket of deplorables, and that didn't go well for her, But weird seems to have had the opposite effect for Tim Wolls and the Democrats.
Well, weird plays into our current vibe, which is the brat vibe, you know, which is all very like, oh, we're all just being a bit naughty and we're all just being very informal and we're having fun. And this is the TikTok collection, et cetera.
Because deplorable is a very tricky word, and it's very weird word for that.
And also he is right the kind of stuff that jd. Vance is talking about, you know, people with children should get more votes, you know, like it is weird.
Where's the whole story about maybe he had.
Sex maybe but you know, and which he didn't, which he didn't take story.
If but he did, it would be weird in that don't spread fake news. Mia. In the interview that you're talking about, what he said that was really solid.
He said, you know, there's something wrong with people when they talk about freedom, freedom to be in your bedroom, freedom being your zam room, freedom to tell your kids what they can read.
That stuff is weird.
He's right, it is weird and it's extreme. And there's no doubt that one of the biggest weapons for progressives here is the fact that a large proportion of MAGA people. Jd Vance is one of them want America to become an extreme religious state, right of conservative Christian state, and.
That is weird, so that women have no right.
Yeah, so this is a good word, right, but you know, the MEGA people think it's weird that there are people who are same sex attracted, and weird that some women want to use contraception, and weird that some people questioning their gender. The problem is, though, with weird, I really hope and I know that I'm not a highly paid democratic strategist, so what do I know. But I kind of hope that weird is a flash in the pan
because is religious conviction weird? You know, is any behavior that you don't agree with or seems a bit unusual weird? You know, I would tell my kids not to call kids weird. My son gets called weird all the time, Like weird is different, weird stands out, weird is unusual. My personal feeling is about it is that it feels a bit negative and a bit name corely. But then also I'm aware that I'm being very gen x in that reading of it, because I'm sort of taking it quite seriously.
No, I share that discomfort, and you just made me realize that it was because I got called weird at school, like it was an insult that was used. And there's something about that word that's still like it doesn't sit right with me. And I was thinking about what the word weird actually means, because it's a way of othering. It's a way of saying I'm normal and you're not. It's a way of saying you're not particularly bothered, like you're not ramped up, you're not losing it.
And then this person isn't a threat.
No, don't you think they're a bit weird?
So excluding stigmatizing in a way, isn't it Jesse?
Do you think that because you know how we've talked before about how the Trump attitude to politics is name calling.
Yeah, they're weird.
Jdvans likes to talk about normal people as opposed to non normal people. And we've talked before about whether or not you've got to fight fire with fire given all the things you're saying about weird, is this just an example of you know, the Democrats are playing Trump at his own game because it does seem to have really bothered him, and nobody's never called me weird. I'm a lot of things, but weird, I'm not, and I'm up front.
And he is not either.
I will tell you JD is not at all.
They are.
It does seem to have worked, but there is a distinction between what Clinton did with deplorables and what Walse's doing. And I watched every clip I could find of him using the word weird, and you will find that he is very, very clever. JD. Vance and Donald Trump are weird. He does not refer to their supporters to the party.
He's gone out of his way to say a lot of Republicans are very fine people, and very fine people he's said JD. Vance and Donald Trump. What I think is interesting about it, and I know what you're saying, and I don't think it's something it might stick around. But what I like about it, and what I think the intention was, is to be very passive aggressive in a way. That's what's the worst thing you can do to a bully is laugh at them. I understand what
you mean about. If someone is in a vulnerable position like a child, or it happens at school, someone's called weird, that's different because that's punching down This isn't punching down. This is almost like the Emperor's new clothes to go. They're saying all these things. They want a band contraception, they want to ban IVF, they want to burn books, they're hugging flags, They're you know, talking about women and cats. It's a bit weird. It's weird.
It's weird, yeah, very cheesy, and it is right because weird because all they've got is this.
Donald Trump and Jadie Vance are all about this thrusting version of masculinity. And if you try and match that with anger, but if you just kind of go the Empress wearing no clothes.
And this seems to be Kamala's vibe, right because last week when Trump gave that disastrous interview at the Association of Black Journalists and he said that Kamala used to be Indian and then she decided she was black, and like just very very incendary stuff. She took the road that you're describing me. She just kind of went same old nonsense. She didn't go this is outrageous. I'm offended. Da da da dah, which she had every right to do.
So let's be honest. It seems that this is the strategy is let's laugh at them, let's mock them, let's not get too furious about them.
So they're making badges for the conference make America laugh again, because I think this is the mood. I really do. And I think that there's a thing on the internet if someone attacks you with very zen response is to say, why are you so obsessed with me?
Yeah, and it.
Just instead of going on and fighting back, you're just like, hey, are you so obsessed with me? And that's kind of what the weird thing is.
What he's won as well is and I think there was probably some concern that the Harris campaign picked up a lot of momentum and was harnessed by the TikTok generation, who have an attention span of eleven seconds, and that passed very quickly. And what he managed to do that Democrats haven't managed to do in a very long time is harness the attention economy, which is also what this will be about. He is a brilliant interview like he
thinks on his feet, He's not rehearsed, he's handed. He's a brilliant interview, which I think is a really good thing. The only other criticism I have is that he was at this rally or something and he was talking about JD. Vance and he said something like, I can't wait to debate him. That's if he can get up off the couch, and everyone started laughing because what he was referring to was the since deleted tweet with a fake quote from JD Vance's book that said that he performed some sexual
act on a couch. When you've got the Republicans yelling about fake news and truth hangs in the balance, do we want to play this game?
It was really interesting to watch that because I thought the exact same thing, and then I thought he also overegged it by going, see what I just did there, And you could see Kamla was standing in the background trying not to laugh but also shaking her head, and you just know that afterwards she'd go.
Hey, nuh, wind it back, wind it back.
Because even if you just said, if you can get off the couch, that would have been nod. But he should have just played it then really straight, and that would have been a nod to the people who knew. But I agree with you, Jesse. The thing is that I think that this guy authentic and genuine overused words you don't see them often in politics. But I don't think that he went I'm going to use this word.
There was nothing strategic. He wasn't in the running for VP when he gave that interview and said weird, he really wasn't. He just spoke a truth, you know, spoke an unspoken thought, and he went on to develop it to say, I grew up in a Midwestern rural town, and the rules there are it's none of your business, like don't get into my kid's bedroom, and don't get into my sex life, don't get involved in my wife's health care, don't tell my daughter what contraception she can use.
It's none of your business. And he really was able to articulate that on a level that Kamala Harris, as a West Coast liberal black woman, might feel a bit remote to those people. But when he said that, I think he compliments her really, really well.
It'll be interesting to see because to your point, Jesse, about harnessing the attention economy, when Kamala was announced and the coconut and all of that exit and the brat, it was all organic and it's brilliant, and it seems that this has also been organic. They're weird, right, But if you're their campaign people, you are waiting for the next one of those moments.
Right, because you want that next spike.
And the danger is if you start trying to engineer them, yes, because as soon as you start trying to engineer them, Okay, we had coconut that was great, organic, and then we've got weird, what's next, That's where you can begin to really fall over your feet. So I hope they've got the smartest people around them who are going to be like, let's not try too.
Hard to welcome the next vice president of the United States.
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop you Mum and Me Are Out Loud. Just for Mum and Me are subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose ab out Loud and a big thank you to everyone who is already subscribed. Oh good vibes, great fight, what a.
Great time friends. All is not well in the Olympic village. And I worry. I've been worrying, and I'll tell you why. A British swimmer named Adam Peaty said this week athletes have been finding worms in their food. Oh dear, he said, I like my fish and people are finding worms in the fish. It's just not good enough the standard. We're looking at the best of the best in the world, and we're not feeding them the best. Why would they be worms in the fish. I don't know a lot about food, but I.
Don't know how you get worm in a fish. But I was thinking maybe, because you know how I mentioned that they've been trying to have more plant based, not maybe worms compost because some people sea worms as a source of protein. But I don't think that's what this is. I'm trying to give best intentions. I'm benifiting of the doubt really hard here for the Olympic village.
Apparently the quality and quantity of the food isn't up to scratch. Sixty percent of all meals are meatless, with one third plant based. Pete says that there aren't enough protein options and the cues are out of control, with athletes waiting thirty minutes for a meal.
Have they found the muffins, yes, muffins. Have they been awakated?
It's interesting because in the pool they were saying like there weren't that many world records. It apparently it was like the depth of the pool, they said, But you know, maybe it's the worms too. Maybe people aren't their best. Apparently they also keep running out of eggs and chicken. And I know nothing about anything, but I feel like eggs and chicken are important for an athlete. Holly, your mate, the Italian swimmer isn't loving the village either, is he.
Have you met Thomas Chechon. I have. He became viral this week purely on the basis of being really hot and as the hot men correspondent around here after one day's clean pal segment, which I enjoyed way too much. I don't I don't want to be creepy, like that would be weird. He's also like young enough to be. But there is a very handsome Italian swimmer Thomas.
Everybody's going, yeah, oh my goodness, that's a whole other story.
He is all over everything because he's very good looking, casually shows. I mean, all swimmers show their apps and their abs are amazing.
Yeah, that's because I have to swim in a swimming pool.
But it's true. I've got this kind of lived in slight circles under the eyes, scruffy vibe, and everybody loves him anyway, Everybody loves him and then he was photographed sleeping in a park after complaining about the conditions at the village. We did discuss this that apparently the beds are too hard to have sex on, which is a
problem that we're as hot as Thomas. No, I'm not making any assumptions about what he's doing there, but a rower took a video of him sleeping on a white towel under a tree, and he did say that he usually sleeps in the afternoon because he's Italian, right, and that's Jillie, what you do. But he's struggling to rest in the Olympic village, so he's just heading out and sleeping.
As a form of hot protest.
He says there's no air conditioning in the village, it's hot, and the food is bad, as per yes story. So now he's just out there. And the thing that I like to imagine about this is that all the people who saw that footage are just like patrolling the parks of Paris hoping to stumble across a sleeping Italian swimmer under a tree.
Was he just a random park or was it within the village.
I think it was a random park.
It was because it just seemed like a random person photographed him and it was just he was.
Just being really beautiful, lying on the floor asleep. It's very vulnerable.
He likes gardening like you.
He wanted to be close to the plan he.
Did on the Olympic village. There's another problem. Tokyo in twenty twenty one was known as the COVID Olympics. But Paris is where the virus has actually reaked a lot of having it.
Do you know, out of like the I'd sort of forgotten that there even was an Olympics, but it was in twenty twenty one. Tokyo is determined to have it. There were all the bio things. There were no spectators yet to put on your own medal, everyone had to wear.
Masks to remember. We kept saying before it, we kept going, they're going to cancel it. Of course they're going to cancel it. How can they have the Olympics?
But they did, and out of like the five thousand athletes that were there, there were only about fifty cases or not even that many, and they were sent to isolate in hospital and then they were sent home. So in terms of bio hazards, it really wasn't one. They managed it. Incredibly well well.
At least three members of the Australian swim team have tested positive. Larnie Pallister had to pull out of the fifteen hundred meters. A few athletes we know have competed with the virus. One is a breaststroker and he was expected to medal. And it's clear that it's affecting performance that people who are competing with COVID are not at.
Except for the Australian gold medalist in BMX who had COVID when she won.
To god, that's what I was going to say. Sayah Sakabara, who won, as you say, Australia's first gold medal in BMX, she had COVID at the start of her competition week and then went on to bloody winner gold medal. And five players in our water polo team also tested positive. I thought it was interesting that the Olympics don't have any rules about mandatory testing or you can't compete like
you're totally fine if you want to. As far as I know, if you're a water polo player who has it, which is quite a contact sport, you're good to go and play, which is why I think it is going rampant and for some village. Yeah, for some, I guess symptoms are going to be not great. And then for others they have anti virals and stuff on hand, so
they are recovering quite quickly. But I just keep thinking, imagine that you've trained for four years and then you get a positive just before you're fifteen hundred meter swim.
It's also setting the bar a bit high for those of us who get sick and just want to go to bed and don't want to be too flippant about COVID because we know that for some people it's very serious and you know all of those things you've got to avoid infection. I think one of our gold relay swimmers just had COVID and I was like, that's not fair, because.
Guys, it's really important to rest, and they're like, I'll just do my real life.
I know, you know what. The most exciting news though, coming out of Paris overnight, apart from the sighting of the swimmer in the park, was Australian Arisa True, who won Golden skateboarding. She's just fourteen and she's our youngest ever gold medalist. Here's a little interview that she did afterwards. I'm saying little because she sounds like a child, which she is, and it's just an extraordinary achievement. Have a listen.
Started skateboarding when I was like eight years old, and it was because, like I surfed a lot, and I still do surf so much now and I have time. But in winter it just got too cold, so my dad took me to the skate park and then I just started skating, and I just loved it. From them, it was just lots of fun and challenging and just something to do after school. Like when I started skateboarding, there wasn't a lot of girl skaters around my age, so I just like skated with like most of the boys.
More thank you to Rye for that audio. And then she's more girls came and started skating when she was about ten. What an inspiration And how many girls are going to be skateboarding now? How many boys? But like, very very impressive. She achieved a top scoring run of ninety three point one point eight in the final. Undescribed the experience as super cool. Interestingly, so you get three runs. She fell on her first run and she just kept going.
It's so funny watching the skateboarding. I was watching it last night. Every sport has a very different esthetic. As you would say, ole, the competitors tend to look the same way, which is very distinctive tribal. So with the skaters, they all wear these really cool clothes. Most of all the girls have really long straight hair because it's kind of like surfing culture. They're just really good.
I turned it on once there was a guy with backwards cap. He just fell off his skateboard for fifteen minutes, and I was like, I could watch.
This A lot of the skate with headphones or AirPods in and listened to music really loudly when they do it. Same with the BMX riders. Really interesting.
You are still interested in the Olympics and you can't get enough. Can I just do a quick pug for this week's episode of Canceled, which is all about the Olympics, is about all the sex, It's about the wedspot, It's about what is and isn't allowed, the things that have been canceled. It's a lot of fun. We'll link to that now show notes before we go to our third segment. Are you too aware that Claara and I personally giving away a holiday to Turkey.
Stop lying that feels like too much work for you.
You're really not okay, someone else?
Can we have it?
Okay? So well you two can. Are you subscribers, yes, okay, well then you can CLAIREA and I as part of Lazy Girl Giveaways. I must say there are clever, organized people who do a lot of the work behind the scenes, but Claire and I are really enthusiastic about it. They have organized a tripped Turkey with Explore Worldwide. It is valued over nine thousand dollars amazing and if you win, then you get to go with a friend. I love
how it says friend. Nowhere does it say partner. Everyone's like no, no, no, she's kay.
Threat.
The whole thing is planned for you, so you don't have to do any of the organizing.
It's greatful. Lazy Girls.
Have you guys been to Turkey?
No?
I have.
I beautiful loved it. It's one of my favorite places. I can't wait to go back. Entering couldn't be easier. If you are a mum and maya subscriber, then you are already in the running. And if you are not yet, then I have a code for you. It is Vaca twenty and you get twenty percent off a yearly subscription. The prize is drawn on the twentieth August, which is what a couple of weeks or something. A link to enter and the discount code is in the show notes. Teas and c's a play.
So you've got a big decision to make or you've got major life news to share.
Who do you talk to about it?
Look, if you're Melinda Gates, you sit down with Oprah Winfrey and Gail kingan ab chat. This story I came across it on Instagram, this little snippet of an interview that Melinda Gates, wo's one of the richest women in the world, used to be married to Bill Gates, and we've talked about her a lot, and about how she's a billionaire who puts some money where her mouth is funds a lot of really important causes around the world. Anyway, she sat down with Oprah and Gail for like a
kind of nauseating but also awesome chat about life. And one of the things she said was about her girlfriends who she listens to when she's got a big decision to make.
Here's what she said, I've been lucky enough incredibly lucky to have three female friends now for over thirty years. Wow wow three two of them over thirty five years. One of them lost her husband in our thirties. He was my good friend. We walk every every Monday morning, so if you're in town, you walk. They are my truth counsel. Whenever I'm going to make a really hard decision or make a big transition, I know I have to have the courage to tell them.
They're your kitchen cabinet.
There are my kitchen cabinet, and they're honest with me.
Yes, and Melinda, if it's something that you don't want to tell them, because I've had things I'm not going to tell her.
Because I know what she's going to say, then you know that's wrong. I really need to tell you.
Yes, there's been times I go, I'm not going to tell her because I know what he's going to say.
That's when you should know that.
That's not the right decision.
Time you have to tell me.
I recognize this immediately because I'm always sharing my deepest thoughts with Oprah and Gail as well. It's just they don't talk back to me. It's the news or the decision that you don't want to tell some of your closest friends about because you know what they'll say and what that then says about what you think you should do. Did it resonate with you, Miya? Who's in your kitchen cabinet?
I had a slightly different take in that sometimes I'll be wrestling with something and I'll have to think about which of my friends I tell because I kind of know their point.
Of view, and you want them to agree with you. For example, if no, or you know their expertise, maybe.
No, it's almost the opposite of that. It's because I don't necessarily want them to agree with me. But I know this is why therapy is so good, because I know they'll bring their point of view to it, which
sometimes you really want. But other times, like for example, if you're going through a rough patch in your relationship and I talk to my divorced friends, I don't want them to be or like, oh, well, you know you should not that they necessarily say that, but I know that their lens on marriage is pretty negative in many cases, so I find that. And then also there's something about there are certain things that don't feel real until you
tell people. Feels like a yeah, once I say it out loud to these important people who know me really well, I can't unsay it.
The idea that not being able to tell them, or being apprehensive to tell them is some kind of test for the quality of a decision, I think is very true.
I do too.
I often have either omitted or lie to people in my life about a decision that I made because, and specifically these decisions are around they think I'm being taken advantage of. They think that I'm being exploited, and that someone's asking for something ridiculous. I can't say no. I'm ashamed of how I can't say no. So I go and do this which I shouldn't do, and then someone will say you didn't do that, did you, And I'll.
Go no, no, no, no, no, I didn't do.
That because I don't. I don't want the compounding shame that I already feel. I also had it with relationships, like I would be with someone who treated me really badly. We weren't in a relationship according to them, but I would be seeing them they treated me really badly, and then they might send a message and go, do you
want to hang out on Saturday night? And I will look at that and go, yes, I'm not telling a soul that I'm hanging out with them, And in my head, I'm going, I'll wait for things to get better and great until we're basically like normal again, until I have the guts to tell my friends, which inevitably didn't happen. They just hurt me in new and insulting ways and then and no one to tell.
You know the other reason that's a red flag And you're saying that has made me suddenly remember when I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, I hid that from everybody. Oh yeah, I hid it because I wanted to protect him. This is why abusive relationships are so insidious, because the first step to them is isolating you from people, so that, weirdly, I didn't want the people who were close to me to think badly of him. Yeah, that's how it messed with my yese.
But I also think there's another element, which is you don't want them to think badly of you because you're embarrassed because some part of you knows that you shouldn't be accepting this.
And if someone else told you that story about them, you'd say get out, Yeah, like.
What's wrong with you.
Yeah, because what this is really about is who you can be really honest with, right and ideally you've got someone in your life who you could tell anything, and they could tell you their honest opinion and it would be all right, you know what I mean. So if you go, I'm going back to him, you know, in that example, and I've been there too, one hundred percent, and they go, well, you shouldn't do that, and you go, well,
I'm doing it anyway. But you know we're all going to get through this, do you know what I mean. They'll still be there next time you turn up at their door crying and needing cake or whatever. I think it's a good filter, what Melinda says, for when you're wrestling with a decision and you think, how will this feel when I tell people? And then if you've got the people in your head who love you and who have your back, and that's really important, like because as
you say, me, and we know, friends different filters. And I've got some friends who are great for work advice, some friends who are great for a relationship advice, some friends who are great for parenting advice, and so you might select them that way. But you've got some people in your life who you know you can trust their judgment one hundred percent. They don't have baggage. They're not going to try and steer you in a direction that
will make them feel better about themselves or whatever. But if you imagine how will it feel when I say this out loud and you'd I know, you'll be embarrassed, it's a really good flag.
When I eventually did tell my friends and my parents about this relationship, it was after two years, and it was when I needed some help to go, not some actual physical help, but I also wanted to burn the bridge behind me a little bit. And I knew that once I told them, they couldn't unknow what I had told them, and so they would. I can't say they wouldn't let me go back, but it would be very difficult for me to go back. So I almost did it as a way to bolster myself and immunize myself
against that decision. I have a group chat of girlfriends back to what you said, Jesse, about when your friends know you're doing the wrong thing. We all have trouble with saying yes to things that we don't want to do, like you say, right, So in this group, we all bolster each other and we have to confess when we've agreed to something. We have to preemptively confess wh agreed to something.
That's funny, Yeah, good idea.
And we all hold ourself accountable. And then we also so we don't wobble when we're asked to do something that we don't want to do we can't do, We'll put it to the group and then the group will go, you cannot, and so it's like okay, and the group will help us formulate the response.
Yeah. Yeah, I had something the other day that I was asked to do something that was so manipulative. My instinct would have been to just I don't know, do it. Luca was this. He just went oh no, and like just had the answer so quickly. Yeah, And I was like, oh, that's the decision made for me. But I also think that there's something about the walking part. Yeah, walking with friends is absolutely ace. Yeah, it's very different to sitting and having a coffee or having a really intense meal.
You can feel quite confronting then, yeah, but when you walk, you don't have to look each other in the eye and you can meander go in different directions. There's silence, there's things to look at. I just think it's way better context sometimes to have heavy conversations.
I'm just imagining Melinda and her girlfriends for a start. I want to know who they are, who she walks with every Monday.
And if they if she talked to them about Bill, she must.
I absolutely loved how she goes if you're in town because like properly rich people, they could be in one of their many residentss no, no, but she is. So if you're in town, you're walking, and I want to know the kind of things that she needs to tell them about. I want to give a billion dollars to Harry and Megan.
No no, no, no no no, no, no no, don't do that. I'm about trying to eradicate malaria in Africa.
So great, that's a good idea.
We're here.
I want to know who's in out Louder's kitchen cabinet, Like, what's the criteria for it? Because, as I say, I think one of my criteria for real honesty is you have a friend who you can be really honest with. But you know that's because they'll always be there for you, right, That's very important. If they're going to get offended. If you do the opposite of what they say, then they can't be in the out Louders.
On our subscriber episode yesterday, I spoke quite candidly about my revelations around ADHD and food. It relates to my quest for a new lunch. It's about food hyperfixation. It's clearly sparked a massive chord. The out Louders Facebook group has gone off, a lot of people saying it was in a harm over for them or telling their own stories. We will put a link in the show notes if you want to have a listen to that episode, I highly recommend it.
Out Louder stop telling me I watch to have for lunch. It doesn't work that way.
She has to.
Imprint on her next lunch.
By herself, Sarah Juny.
She has to stumble into the next bread goood of her own, free will, true English muffins. That is all we've got time for today are massive. Thank you to all of you out Louders for listening to our show today and every day, and to our five those teams are putting it together. We're going to be back in.
Your ears tomorrow.
Bye bye.
Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it. There's a link in the episode description