You're listening to I'm MoMA Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to MoMA Mire out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourth of February. My name is Holly Wayne right. I am am.
Vernham and I am Jesse Stevens, and I have come from a morning full of appointments and I am so unprepared. So I think this is going to be a little bit.
Of punt well to make yourself feel better while you're away, holl And, I attempted to do an ad and all we did was break the studio.
I kicked out a cord, I broke things. Things were too loud, things are too quiet. So things have going really well.
I'm severely lacking in facts. But what I did find is that I have a lot of facts on hand about Lewis Hamilton.
What that I die have to fall in here?
In here, Oh my goodness, I'm going to be here for the girlies who do not know what F one even is. Anyway, that's a hint about what's made our agenda for today. But here is what is on it. A neighbors star, a rewritten pop song, and a South Park knockoff. Inside the Australian political campaign that seems to be working.
Plus, as Jesse mentioned before, Kim Kardashian has ruined my life specifically, which was quite mean.
We haven't spoken about and we've been saving it and I just neede Holy to leave the room and you and I.
Are going to be talking about Kim's new boyfriend. I've heard he's a big day stop just stop.
And a viral sub stack this week says it's almost never a bad idea to shut up. So what matters more being right or not being annoying?
But first, in case you missed it, I don't think he did. Did who watch the Grammys or bits of the Grammys or snippets of the Grammys?
I just saw chapel grown snipples.
Well that's lucky because that's what we're going to be discussing out of the whole Grammys.
That's what we're going to be discussing.
I also saw Harry Styles in green ballet flats and a cropped crossed jacket. That interesting. Someone said he's in this millennial Mum era jeans and the nice top here for it. And of course the amazing Benito who bad Bunny super Bowl next week? I think, yeah, so that's all exciting. But anyway, blah blah blah blah blah, nipples.
Right, were they her real nipples? No?
They were not, thank God.
Like I was so stressed out that whole time because she was wearing this dress and it looked like the dress was hanging off nipple piercer. Yes, and I was like, someone better not pull that dress by actually lot or.
Tread on the edge of the dress like oral grabbing our nipples and sympathy. But so Chapel Rowan, who is a big deal pop star and who is probably arriving in the country like right now, because she's about to play around the country for Laneway, So she's probably right now prepared, like looking up shoey on her like how do I do one? On her phone? Have you got your ticket?
Hole?
I wish I did, but I'm too old to go. If she was doing a side show, I'd be there, like at the back like with a baseball. Come see me, but I can see you.
But no.
Anyway, So Chapel wore this outfit, she wore this cape and then she took it off and as you've said, Emma, it was dangling off her nips. But we got a full rundown today from the experts behind the look about what was really going on there. Here's a little grab from Pop Sugar Fashion about what was happening.
We're prosthetics, and we got the inside scoop from the artists who designed that dress is literally suspended from NIPPLORINGX. Asthetics artist Sasha Glasser used a custom prosthetics from out of Kity, enforced it with powermash and pierced the jewelry directly through it so it could actually halt.
It sounds like a lot of work, a lot of work. So there's something called apparently prosthetic pasties. Pasties are the things you stick on your.
Nips, which is what I thought it was because when I zoomed in there wasn't an areola.
Yes, but apparently they also said that was very deliberate. So Sasha Glassner, who was just named, checked in that she's a big deal, like aesthetic makeup artist, so she does those things that you know, make you look like you've got those pointy cheekbones and you know, howns or whatever. She posted about it said this is my work, and apparently they wanted as well as obviously to protect hashtag save the nips. But also they gave it this look
which was very deliberate. Apparently I think maybe they get around Instagram and social media is not people band, but they said, for artistic purposes to give it a completely blank Barbie like.
Appearance, because that was the thing, right, is that the Grammys is happening the most talked about outfit. We were sitting here in the office going, I don't know if we're a large to post that on Instagram because we're per Measured's guidelines. They would have removed it or said it was nudity, right.
Yeah, exactly. So you couldn't quite see it. I mean you could see nips, be you couldn't quite see it. But also because she's savvy, she had this sometimes her hair was covering them so you could still get the chaps on the more conservative sites.
And what did you think? Because I thought it was fun. I thought it loved it, very.
Fun, loved it, loved it. What are the Grammys for if it's not that kind of caper? But I do want to say, what's up with the soft kids these days? Because when that dress was first on the runway, so it's designed by tiery mugler. I think he's French. He was like a big deal in the nineties. He was like the guy with the oh you wouldn't know the reference. Don't worry. I don't understood anything, only just did a little just doing, like George Michael for Anywhere, Never Mine.
He's a big deal fashion designer and he first put that dress down the runway in nineteen ninety eight, and the model did have the real deal nipple rings holding it up. So all I'm saying is, kids these days not tough enough. It's catching strays.
Okay, I have breaking scarless gossip news that made me cry.
Talk us through it.
Okay, this is what happened. Talk us through It was the day of the Grammys, right, My whole feed was all Grammy's, Grammys, Grammies, Grammyes, Grammys. Something else cut through.
So you woke up. It was just an ornery dat.
It's just any hey.
It was an article on page six and it was sources say Kim Kardashian has checked into a manner in the countryside with Lewis Hamilton.
The English Countryside, English Country.
Talk to me about your first visceral, emotional, physical reaction.
My first reaction was like, no, no, no, it's only also say, can you.
Tell some of us to Lewis Hamilton is. I mean, I do know, but like not everybody is quite as sat as you.
Lewis Hamilton is, I will say, the most famous driver in Formula one right now. I think, in my opinion, he's the best driver in history. He's won seven championships age depending who you are. There's a lot of controversy around that.
We can we not go into that. Okay, it's been around a long time, right, he's been.
Around a long time. Anyway. I was like, no, no, no, this isn't happening. The next day I woke up to some grainy photos. There was photos and a video, and the video was them getting out of the same car in front of a very romantic looking hotel in Paris
and then going into the hotel together. And I had a bit of a cry, Oh you please please tell me that is an overstatement, because why would you cry that Kim Kardashian, who dates loads of sportsmen all the time, and Lewis Hamilton, who dates loads of famous people all the time, at dating each other.
It's the least surprising news of all time.
Okay, firstly, I do have to say I was pmsing, so if you have to factor tact check me on that fact check back. But have you heard of the Kardashian Curse?
Oh yeah, with the K the K.
Kendall Jenner recently did a Super Bowl ad with a sports betting company and she poked fun of the Kardashian curse, which a lot of sports fans believe that if a Kardashian dates a sports person like an NBA player, then their career ends up tanking.
So your tears are not because you were like but I thought Lewis was waiting for me or something. Your tears were because, right do you think this.
Is going to make him lose both things? I think right now the F one season hasn't started. They're doing the testing. He's doing really well in testing as and like could potentially get an eight championship.
How is he distracting himself with hot sex?
Because I think he's telling us that he actually doesn't want to go for it anymore and now he just wants to have No I'm not okay, I'm not Jesse.
Here's a thing. Well, Luca came over and told me and I think that this happened in a lot of relationships where it was like, the third leg of our relationship has revealed itself, and my friend's dating your friend. And so he came over and he was like, I have gossip because he knows that that will excite me and cheer me up. And he said, Louis, do you ever get excited when he has gossip for you? Yes, yes, because he knows that that's my lovely page. So he's like,
sit down. Lewis Hamilton and Kim Kardashian are dating. And I was like what. And then I woke up the next morning and I said, I feel as though I didn't give you enough, Like I feel as though I didn't truly express my feelings about it. I actually haven't stopped thinking about it. I lost sleep over it. Here are my feelings right. Lewis Hamilton, to my mind, is
the most eligible bachelor on the planet. He is a forty one year old man who is worth something like seven hundred million Australian dollars.
Like small potatoes compared to what kimm You.
Say, yes, exactly, he's the poor one in that relationship.
But also he sold his private jet because he wanted to be more climate friendly, Yes, exactly so he could just if he wanted to.
A good As far as I can see, Touchwood a good man. He came from very humble beginnings, which is very rarely the case in formula one. He has done so much for the representation of the black community in a very white, very rich sport. He's gentle, and he's like sportsmanship and the way he speaks like I just I have.
He's also dated a lot of the world's hottest women. Okay, so not a crime to like a celebrity, No, it's not, but it doesn't exactly suggest like humble model like. It's not like he's been dating nurses until this point, is my point.
Well, it's hard for him to meet them and because of where he socializes hard. What's important is that he dated Nicole.
Quite a long time.
You wish your girlfriend was hot like her.
According to the reports that I have read prior to today, because I didn't have time but children, big discussion between both of them whether or not they wanted them, blah blah blah.
Kim has lots of those.
Yes, no bad blood, and Kim's a few years older than him, and so I'm kind of going Lewis like, how we feeling?
Like?
Are we thinking that we're moving into our family era?
He's just so speaking laid in a fancy hotel in the Cotswolds. Guys like I don't think they're burried.
It does feel like a distraction from the upcome.
Because if you also think about it, like most most most importantly, they're height appropriate. She's five two and he's like five eighths?
Is he under six one?
He's a tiny man. Don't you have to be kind of Look, I'm gonna inflame a lot of people now when I say this.
Don't make me cry, Please, don't make He is beneath her.
There is no question about why you have to be mean in this discussion. Wrong beneath Kimmy, who straddles all before her, right, Like I feel a little bit betrayed because I put myself through two hours of a Kim Kardashian interview this week, because remember we talked on what day was That seems like a year ago. It was Monday. So much has happened. We talked on Monday about how on her interview with her sister Chloe, she talked about
Harry and Meghan. Right. So I listened to two hours of that interview, and there is a point at which Chloe is very straightforward and says, everyone wants to know who you're dating. You haven't dated anyone for ages, like ages, and she's like, not dating, not dating at all, don't care about it. It's just all about my kids now. I just blah blah blah blah blah. Five seconds later, when she is with a Cotswolds fella.
You have famously predicted that she one day.
But you know what, I think I've sold her short in that because I know that a lot of you people think that the Kimmi has no principles.
She does like, okay, the dog thing, we need to talk about the dog thing.
She clears that up in that Chloe interview too. She says she's got six dogs living in her house.
Where are they?
Well, why would she show them to you?
Or she just says they're here. I'm like, no, they're not, they're not here.
And lowis Lewis's dog, Rosco.
His dog passed away and it was his best friend, you know, and he doesn't even know Kim's dogs.
They're probably all bonding over the dogs and all the things. He is perfect for her, right because when I was listening to that interview, I mean perfect for a fling. I mean I'm not saying that they should be getting married. I think I sold her short in the Elon. I think even Kim would be getting a big ick from Elon these days. She does like to get people out
of prison and stuff. Just don't diss my Kim. But also when she was talking about how she's not into dating, I was thinking, well, who the hell is she going to date? Because I was thinking, take billionaire guys. They used to be hot to date, you know, like Miranda Kerm married one, but these days they're all a bit on the nose and they're getting a bit older. She and all the Karadashians have said how they're so done with sportsman. You know my controversial position that Lewis Hailton
probably really a sportsman. Okay, all I'm saying.
What I've enjoyed thinking about is Christmas at Chris Jenna's house. Oh yeah, so she's going to host Christmas this year. I know we're early, but you know it.
We're getting ahead of our February the fourth, it is.
Timothy is obviously going to be there, Timothy shall May will be there with Timmy Kylie. Who knows where they'll be. I mean, will they be pregnant, will they be engaged?
We don't know.
And then Lewis Hamilton walks in. It's like, I just love the mingling of all these different people from all these different worlds. I also read that Kendall, like there were roomors about Kendall and Lewis Hamilton friends.
For very long, seem to be friends with a lot of suit models. Anyway, Look, we have to move on, but I want to need to pull back the curtain on one thing. Jesse, when I sent this to you on Instagram, I sent you the story probably one of the twenty million people who did what did you reply? Do you remember?
No?
She replied, what is it with those Kardashians. They must have magic vaginas? Is there any man that they can't get?
True? You can pull anyone, like imagine living in the world knowing that you could point at all those like yeah, especially going.
From David sent to Lewis Hamilton. Yeah, like in my head, that doesn't make sense, Like they're from a different worlds. And then Kanye like they're just not.
On the same continue wom It's like she doesn't have a type. That's what kind of surprises me.
Lewis Hamilton has a type though, that's what she wants.
Anyway, I think they had a lovely night.
Okay, try to move on, to move on.
You know. The weirdest thing about that story is it they checked out at eleven am, which is like, I didn't think checkout applied to them.
They then for the late checkout.
No.
I was like, he's teaching her, He's bringing her back down to earth. Holly, they got a call frugal.
She lives on a budget. Guys, she lives on a budget. She told Chloe that too. I'm sure enough. Up next, I promise we are moving on. How an Australian former pop star became one of the world's most effective political influences, and why she's turned her attention back home.
Hey out loud as it's mea. I'm back in your ears on Tuesdays and Thursdays in subs episodes, and yesterday Holly m and I had a great chat about Karl Stefanovic's new podcast, Sydney Sweeney's new only fans adjacent lingerie line, and also the Millennia documentary. Tomorrow. I'm going to pick
up my chat about the female emaciation era. You loved it, and I really wanted Holly and Jesse to weigh in loll literally on the topic because you're interested in it and so we So if you're not already a subscriber and you want to hear what we've got to say, follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week.
All right, who remembers Holly Valance? You would certainly perfect, absolutely millennial territory right, yeap.
She was big for me, but you still don't really know who she is.
Okay, let me refresh you or indeed to introduce it to you. Here meet Holly Valance. You need to google this video where not now because that would be unprofessional.
But as soon as we get out of here, we should have a little blast of Kiss Kiss, the two thousand and two pop smash from Holly Valance that I remember and the world remembers, mostly because she was naked in the video for it, and at the time that was really shocking, do you remember, Yeah, lots of writhing around looking really gorgeous, and that was because she was
one of neighbour's big breakout stars. So she was on neighbors for ages and then in those days, back in those times, they used to pluck people from neighbors and send them to Britain and say, turn this person into a pop star.
She was like a contemporary of Delta Gudrun.
Yeah, so she went to London to become a pop star, and indeed she did. And then she married a billionaire, a big deal property developer called Nick Candy, and then she became an al right, power player. Plot twist, because that's not usually what happens.
But they're still making songs.
No, well until now. We're going to get to that, right, So if you've been paying attention, you'd know that she married Nick Candy, who's the bazillionaire. They have just broken up. So they broke up last year. They were married for thirteen years, they've got kids, they haven't finished their settlement yet. It's going to be big, right, because he's worth a lot of money, Nick Candy. For a while, there was the treasurer of the Reform Party, which in UK politics,
the Reform Party used to be the Brexit Party. Is kind of and these comparisons are imperfect. But let's go with it for the purposes of this. They're kind of one nation. They're like a very right wing, very anti immigration party led by Nigel Farage, right who's kind of a British Trump, or certainly fancies himself as a British Trump and is besties with Nigel. She herself because as a part of that power couple with Nick Candy, they
became very influential in conservative politics in Britain. She's spoken this big rally called Popcorn. She gives lots of soundbites about how Britain's gone to the dogs, you know, and blah blah blah. She doesn't believe in climate change. She thinks that Nigel farg is going to save them. She held one of the biggest Trump fundraising parties in Britain for the twenty twenty four.
Election in Britain.
Yeah, because he wants support from all over the world. Money funding, money, money, money, money, money, Yeah right, so she had one of the big parties there. Faraj and her have been over to mar A Lago lots of times lately. She's been seen since the split with Candy.
Not that anyone's insinuating there's anything romantic going on. I don't think, but she's been seen a lot with this guy called Tommy Robinson, who's a really controversial dude who's the leader of a party called the English Defense League, which sounds exactly like it is. He's been in jail
lots of times. But she basically has positioned herself as a big deal power player, not just some kind of like post a child, but she actually is a power player in that which is of right wing politics in Britain. Right She has said, I think everyone starts off as lefty and then wakes up at some point after you starty the making money, working, trying to run a business, trying to buy a home, and you realize what crap ideas they are and you go to the right. She
thinks that Australia has become too woke. So that brings us to why we're talking about it today. So Reform, which is the party she supports in Britain, is polling really well in the UK at the moment, and partly because they're conservative, they're traditional conservative opposition are in disarray. They're really like coming through, surging through as a populist alternative. Does that sound familiar to anyone to what's going on
here right now? Yes, so, Holly the Lance has collaborated with One Nation, apparently at the request of Pauline Hanson, on a song for their new movie. If you are confus used about why One Nation has a movie, would you like me to like you or would you like me to stop talking now? Because it's all making you feel a bit better?
No, I would like to know that because it's feeling a bit Millennia.
Yes, well it's not very.
Milania because it's a cartoon, right, an animation, So the movie, yeah, an animation. So the movie is called a super progressive movie, and what it actually is is it's a full length feature film built from all the cartoon clips that One Nation have been using for more than a year now to kind of invigorate their bass, take the piss out of woke politics, do lots of kind of set the limbs on hair.
Can I if I wanted to this weekend? Can I go to the cinema?
So it hasn't been widely released, like you know, Anaconda or something, but it has been doing screenings around the country, funded by obviously political donations, and Pauline's been traveling around and appearing at them and it is available for streaming anyway. The song from it, because every movie needs a song, brings us back to Holly. Holly Valance has re recorded a version of Kiss Kiss called please Hold This is very important. It's called kiss Kiss My Ass and it's
a smart take, I know. And the song's lyrics have been rewritten to poke the bear of transphobia. Basically, I'm not going to give you the lyrics because they are pretty gross, but let's just say that in the lyrics there's lots of talk about pronouns, penises, vaginas. You get the gist. The thing is, it's all supposed to be comedy and satire.
And why am I not laughing?
Well and yet right, So it's very interesting because this is a very deliberate strategy copied from America, really right, which is use humor. Use humor again in inverted commas, there's notically funny, but you know, use humor and piss taking and poking lots of culture war issues that will
get shared. So these clips, until it became a full length movie, just live on social and they're shared around probably on somebody related to all of our Facebook somewhere, and you know, they're on TikTok and they kind of play into that strategy very much. For an Ossie audience is probably smarter again because we like to pride ourselves
on not taking ourselves too seriously. Right, But Holly has said that Pauline asked to do it, she thought it was hilarious and she really wants to support one nation in this election, not that there's an election.
She's also Holly was doing an interview in the last twenty four hours with someone on a free speech channel where she used the R word very flippantly and the person said, we don't use that word on this channel, and then she had a big kind of blow up about free speech. And I think that that really shows where they're all at and who they're trying to appeal to. They're trying to appeal to the person who feels as though they've been on the wrong side of the culture
wars for the last ten twenty years. And I watched a few clips from the film to try and get a sense of it, and the music clip it's like an attempt at south Park.
It's like a sort of south parky knockoff. It's sort of it follows for alleged progressives traveling around Australia, and you can imagine like the kind of situation.
Yeah, but it's also there's one scene where and I don't understand the full context of this, but where they appeared to blow up Ularu. There are jokes about, oh, we wake up every morning and we do our apology and you know, white men are in shackles and all that kind of stuff feels very one note. But I was reading what the creators of it have said, and clearly this is an attempt to appeal to young people.
So one nation is which you I'm young people.
Well, I think that it's like because this is clearly a social media YouTube TikTok, Instagram play right, Like, I can't imagine that boomers are necessarily looking at this.
I don't know they'd be seeing it on Facebook's on YouTube. There's a significant boomer population.
But it's funny how the right are trying to like reclaim comedy.
Yes, that's what's really interesting.
Yeah, that they're trying to go where funny, we don't take ourselves too seriously and now one, two three the left loses it. And that's why in the mainstream press or whatever, which is necessary. People go, I watched it, so you don't have to, and here's what I think. And you can call it offensive and you can call it crude, and they're like and they go, yeah, that's the point. And Pauline Hanson twenty years ago was She's always been dismissed as unseerious and as unrefined, and.
That's kind of like what my opinion of her has been has been just a joke, a joke. She's been a joke, a non dangerous one in the sense of, like I was told she could never really rise up in yeah politics here in Australia, and the fact that she's leaning into her being a joke makes me go, oh.
No, yeah, is now being a joke doesn't marginalize you. It might mainstream you. And I think that I've had so many different people in different circles, from politics, to media to friends say in the last fortnight, I'm really worried about this Pauline Hanson one Nation thing and how it's building women.
Well you should be if it's not. You know, I don't want to assume the way that everybody feels about one Nation and Pauline Hanson. I don't think it would be, as we said on Monday, surprising to know where we stand. But people should take them seriously because as the like in Britain, as the traditional right here is kind of in a bit of disarray at the minute. Obviously the Nationals and the Libs have fallen out. Liberal Party voting is in the toilet one nation are coming through strongly.
They have never pulled so strongly. The polls are and this isn't just being reported in you know, what you might term as right leaning press, it's everywhere. They're polling as high as twenty six percent, which is a lot.
Right and Pauline specifically as like a preferred.
Leader, yes, higher than Susan Lee. Like they're definitely. And the thing is about that is it's easy to dismiss and roll your eyes and go, I remember when she was just a joke. I remember when she wore burker in Parliament, which she's done twice, which is, you know, ridiculous. But if you look at what's happening in Britain and you look at what's happened in the US, it's something
to take seriously. And the thing is that's interesting about the British comparison is that it was only twenty twenty four when their labor government won in a landslide. Right and now Reform, who are the populist right Party, are preferred government by quite a long way. Right, they're saying if there was an election today. So I think one of the things that's interesting about this is we should
absolutely take them seriously. It might not be Pauline Hanson because she actually is a senator and it's quite confusing whether or not she could jump to be you know, the private story a long time. Yeah, But also there's Barnaby Joyce, more traditional liberal labor ANDPS are defecting to one nation. So basically they've got momentum. They've got some momentum at the minute, and it's like take them seriously. But also I would say take a leaf out of
listening to some of the messages in this. And I don't mean about the culture war issues. I mean about the people's exhaustion with feeling constantly scolded, lecture, told off. Is it's become a tired thing to say, But there is a portion of that that this kind of comedic campaigning really works for. So dismissing it, just as dismissing Trump as a crazy orange guy or Nigel Farage's an
unseerious reality star. It's not helping. Holly Valance really is an influential power player, not just the person from Kiss Kiss.
Oh.
I need to jump in with a gorilla recommendation because I'm not on Friday's show Friends, because this week it's my daughter's sixteenth and I have to go and spend some time with my children.
Imagine that it's rude.
Anyway, I can't not tell you about the Take That Door documentary I watched on the weekend.
Okay, because that kid's popping up on my Netflix and I can't decide whether I'll watch it or.
Our quick question for em do you know who take that up?
I watched the documentary where he was a monkey, Ronnie Williams.
So Robbie Williams was the Harry Styles of take That, right, And yes, so Robbi Williams used to be and take that. But in the nineties Take That were huge.
They were the boy band.
They were the British boy band, like modeled on Backstreet Boys and that kind of stuff. Right, They were massive anyway, so new documentaries dropped about them on Netflix. Now is the whole documentary amazing, not really if you've watched all the Robbie ones like better Man and also his documentary that he did that was definitely a procumentary, you know. Yeah, although it was very interesting, you've probably heard all these stories. But it's very satisfying because the music's great. It's all
really fun. But the thing I particularly wanted to call out because it talks to something that we've been talking about lately with heated rivalry, right, is that take that. I don't think I realized this, but back in nineteen ninety one, where they've got they like the spic skills, they kind of got formed, you know, like fake formed by a producer who went, we need an English boy band, got a load of kids from across the North of England,
stuck them together. They became them. They did all their training ground for years playing gay clubs and schools, right, so they would go and do school halls in the afternoon and then two or three gay clubs every night around all of the North of England. So they're honing their talents at driving the audience crazy in these two distinct categories of young girls and gay men at nightclubs
at night, were any of the members gay. None of them have ever come out as gay, so I can't really answer that question, but not that we know of. It's just amazing to watch because what it makes you realize is you see how they built this fan base and then how the sort of you know, the machiavellian mind behind it. The producer realizes that if he can get the girls to go crazy and he can get you know, in inverted commas, the gays to go crazy,
then the mainstream will come. Is also just makes me think about this conversation we've been having a lot lately about straight women loving heated rivalry and were all like, oh, why did the straight women like watching these handsome gay men getting it on? And you're like, there's always been a lot of crossover there, right, And hormones are hormones. That's so true.
So I loved that part of it.
All the history is really good, and then it gets really into the fallout between the main guy of take that, which is Gary Barlow, who wrote all the songs and kept all the money, and Robbie who was going off the rails. He was only sixteen when he joined and was doing this like school slash gape anyway, it's really such a rough time. From the documentary, he's been through a lot, but they all have. It's really good. It's on Netflix. It's called Take That.
Is it a series or one?
I think there are three? Okay, and they're like, you know, fifty minutes long.
All right, I'm going to watch that after the break. The social politics of being right, it didn't matter that I was correct. It mattered that I wasning. That's a quote by Rob Long for The Ankler, in a piece where he grapples with the social politics of being right. He writes in this substack post, it's almost never a bad idea to shut up when someone you're speaking to is wrong. And he tells a few great stories. So the first is when he was a young up and
coming writer in a writer's room. It was actually for the television show Cheers, and they were putting together a storyline and he interjected when it wasn't really his job to interject, and said, oh, well, what you're talking about, I mean that wouldn't technically be a crime, and kind of corrected them, and he said they all looked at him like, mate, that actually doesn't matter, that's not important.
It was sort of a youthful know it all moment and he learned something from that, and then he tells his other story about being much older sitting there in New York after the New York Marathon had wrapped up, and the waitress came over and said, the winner of the New York Marathon is in this restaurant. He's got this medal on and it's amazing and I'm so excited. And he took one look at him and went, I know for an absolute fact that man did not win the New York Marathon today. I know that it was
an Ethiopian man and that is not him. And you're confused, but he went, what's the point. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to ruin her day. She's new to New York. She thinks everyone who has a medal, which is fifty thousand people one great. I'm just going to go with it. And so the big question that he kind of asks is what is the currency of
being right? And I thought this was an almost countercultural idea, because every comment section is people correcting and owning people has become a genre of entertainment in its own right. Everyone has their own sets of facts and a conversation very easily descends into an argument. My question is how important is it being right? You're out at dinner tonight, someone's saying something, You're going, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
How often do you let it go? And in what instances are you like, Okay, I'm actually going to correct you, even if it means I'm being really annoy It's.
Very important being right. The only instance I would say where maybe you shouldn't be right publicly is if it leads to embarrassment. And that story he said about the girl who mistook the person as winning the marathon, he later said that he just wait till she posted on her Instagram and then all of her followers on Instagram
can correct her. I'm like, no, the nice thing would have been to pull her aside and be like, hey, that guy should probably pay for his own meal because he, in fact did not win the marathon.
That's actually very true, because sometimes someone says something and you think, do I soften the blow? And this is I reckon that with family, you always choose annoying, like you have no second guessing. I'm like, I'm annoying with my family all the time. I will always correct them.
But I don't know if this is a culture thing. I'm not allowed to correct anyone older than me. I really have been. Tell me, it's just like a thing that you just never did. Like if I were to correct my mum or dad in public, oh my god, I would get it at home? Really yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And even till this day, I would never do it publicly. Maybe in private, I'll be like, just so you know what you said, you can't say that, and they'll be like, oh okay. But if I did
it in public, there's no way. I even do feel with his story about work, I also felt that in the workplace sometimes where I feel like sometimes people are older than me are allowed to correct me in public, and I have to accept that. But if I were to correct someone older than me, it's like, no way.
There's a hierarchy of power about that. Right, is that as per this story the young person in the writer's room. But that example, what that speaks to more is about the experience. So I think, if you're a creative person and you're working in a creative field, you like dealing with ideas, right, and you'll figure out the details later. So it's like and then the car started flying, but cars don't like, Look, we'll find a way to make the car flying, do you know what I mean? Like
that's kind of how it works. I'm generally of the camp of let it go, like let if people say the wrong word, if they've got a couple of facts wrong, like just let it go unless it really matters. But then is that a slippery slope to what we keep talking about now, which is like a post facts world and it's so important to get your facts straight, Like I don't know. I think that in personal conversations there are lots of cliches about this, which is like it's
better to be happy than right. I wonder if you believe that, Jesse. You like to be right, I mean I like to be right.
You have to be right. But I also have a people pleasing element. That is, if I was speaking to my neighbor to a you know, small talk, yea, and often we're not going to correct then nah, And it's like I might have done something. I might be talking to someone later who says Lewis Hamilton, you know, thirty nine year old Lewis Hamilton. I'd go and I'd probably bite my tongue, even though I know, of course matter. It's like when someone starts telling you this is a
pet peeve of mine, a story you've already heard. I think you've got to let him tell the story. Come on, Like, I think it's rude to kind of stop someone and go, you've already told me.
This whatever time.
I know there's got to be a limit, doesn't there There are people who tell the same story every time, Yeah, exactly, and then you break your leg. But I think it's a similar principle, which is, like, what do you do for like social cohesion and comfort and peace because we all know that feeling of having a know it all at the table? Yeah, And I feel like the only time you get to scream when you know you're right is trivia, Like I think that's really important.
Yes, pob trivia, which obviously I do a lot of. And the thing is is that it's nothing more embarrassing. And I've done that on this show actually too, where you're wrong but you are absolutely convinced of your rightness. I remember once being on Mike and being like, I said a thing and our producer picked me up and said, no, that's not right, and I was so convinced of my rightness, I got a bit crazy. Yeah, and I was wrong.
That's a thing too right, is that I saw that headline on not being right doesn't matter to be right, and I was like, I mostly assume I'm wrong. Like if someone starts talking and maybe you know there are a few facts or whatever. I think you learn more by kind of sitting back and being like, oh, where are you coming from? Or they might have read something completely different. But often you're wrong.
I'll never forget when I hadn't been in Australia long and I was like trying to worm my way into a new friend group, like this cool friend group. We were in a bottle shop and I said that I really liked I think. I said I really liked Savignon Blanc right, and this girl literally corrected me right there at the counter. Like this girl in the friend group was like, you say so whatever she said, and I was like, well, I'm fucking done here, aren't I Like, that's rude. That's rude.
Every time I say moey or moet. Yeah, I get corrected.
Someone who someone who will correct you to make you feel small, as opposed to help you.
Well, the worst thing someone's ever done to me was I was at dinner and we were talking abou high school musical and I was like, oh, did you know Vanessa Hudgens is part Indian and Indian people love saying people are Indian, so I was like, really excited about this fact. I was like, Vanessa Hudgens a part Indian. They're like, really is she?
Oh my god, amazing And.
One of the girls got out her phone and looked it up and was it wrong? I think I was wrong, but like, why would you do it from me?
Let it stands look it up.
Just look fun.
That's the problem.
Actually, you're so right?
Is that being able to search things sometimes this whole thing, So let's just roll with it. Yeah, she's totally half Indian and correct the record, but did it really matter around that table? Right then? Affecting your life? I have to just put one note like I don't want to be generalizing here, but in my house I live with some neurodivergent people. And heart goes out to everyone who's had this argument where you're like, why are last night's pajamas on the floor and they'll be like, they're not
last night's. They have pajamas from two nights ago, and you're like, it could be infuriating, but it also cannot be helped. There are some people who are very they need like the rightness is very important. The facts are very important, even if they don't matter, and you need to move past that and correct the record before you're going to get any action.
I also wonder if it's a thing that younger people do, the correcting. It's a thing that much older people do, and in the middle we kind of have the wisdom to not like I cringe thinking about myself in the workplace in early years, and it wasn't so much. I remember correcting someone on something I knew I was right,
but it was everything. It was my tone. I wanted to die on this hill that probably wasn't that important, and the way that I did it had embarrassed the person that we were inevitably going to get into a bit of a stalemate with it. So maybe you just learn as you get older, I mean, to let things go, or just a more kind of humble way to guide someone.
I'd love to know if the outlouders have any like kind ways to correct someone, you know what I mean, because I think that's really tricky. Is like, as you said before, do you choose to embarrass somebody in public by correcting them in front of everybody, or do you take them aside afterwards or is there like a nice way you.
Can be Like, it's interesting that your brain works that way. Yeah, it's interesting that you think.
That I've a terrible dis I've had Lucas say things to me like six years on going. You know, you say that word wrong. That's the word I use all the time, and I'm like, no, that was a first time thing. You needed to said that on this microphone.
Friends, That is all we have time for on today's Mamma Mia out loud. But if you're hungry for more banter, more laughs, a bit of a holiday from the bonfire of the world, we may have given you a bit of that today. That Louise Hamilton thing.
That went on a long time, It's the smartest segment in the whole episode.
I'm voting to actually edit the rest hour and just call it Lewis Hamilton thoughts discussed exactly.
We have another show. Mama Mia has launched another big show this week, and in fact, one of the main hosts of its sitting in the studio with us right now, Catherine Mahoney. She's been watching us be terribly undisciplined on the mics today. It's called Unleashed. It's MIA's baby. You might have heard about it. It's a show for gen X women who just really want to laugh. It has launched, it has dropped, It is happening. Everybody's listening to it. Go find it.
Incredible feedback.
It has so press follow, make sure you never miss an episode and get that in your ears. We will be back with you tomorrow with Mia. Oh you know what tomorrow is, Jesse. Mia made me and Jesse like grabbed us by our ears almost and said, I need to talk to you about that skinny stuff I was talking about with Amelia Yea, the new age of skinny and how we felt about it. And she knows that we disagree with her a little bit, so she wanted to have it.
Specifically, said, I listened to that episode and you were wrong on this point and this point, on this point, I was very you are wrong, and I am.
Actually, but that's you can correctly.
That's fine, Like, yeah, it's important to correct me because otherwise she gets carried away and.
Then I agreed with her on a surprising number of points too. So that episode, the subscriber episode with me and Jesse and myself talking about the emaciated celebrities yead celebrities, drops tomorrow. Anyway, I keep talking. Goodbye friends, Bye bye.
Mother. Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.