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Welcome to Mom and me are out loud what women are actually talking about on Monday, the fourteenth of October. I'm me of.
Friedman, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vannon filling in for Holly Today. You can normally hear me.
On our daily entertainment podcast A Spell.
And on the show today Welcome in.
By the way, thank you.
You were meant to be here last week, but you chucked Asiki.
I chucked to Siki. I know you hate that. I noted just inspired.
Were you very sick?
I was properly sick.
Now. I can't even say that I was probably sick because I don't sound believable.
No, I trust you. Nicole Kidman and Keith Urbans teenage daughter Sunday Rose walk the runway for Me Me last week. Kim Kardashian's interview with her twin daughter is going viral, but one Australian businesswoman an influencer, has taken a very different approach to how she puts her child on social media and some of her followers are weirdly angry about it. The world's number one show is about healthy relationships and loser's siblings. We're unpacking why nobody wants this has become
the unexpected streaming hit of the year. And don't call me baby or mate, the iconic word that people are passionately arguing about this week after a retail worker got in trouble for using it at work, but.
First in case he missed it for the first time since becoming King Charles will be visiting Australia next week and nobody wants to go to his party.
Okay, King Charles is actually sick and he's coming to Australia.
It caused his cancer treatment to come to Australia.
Not like you last week, not like this films was anything.
It feels rude. Can I just say that last time he was in Australia, or it might have been the time before, I was invited to go and meet him and Camilla.
And you went, well, ye had nothing else.
I curred to me to not go. I did go for a bit disloyal to Diana in a way meeting Camilla, but they were a hoot.
So I've got all the excuses. So it's all the state premiers that aren't going okay to his kind of welcoming party in Canberra. So here are the excuses. So the Victorian Premier just Into Alan says she's at a cabinet meeting that day. New South Wales Premier Chris Minn says he's also at a cabinet meeting that day.
Couldn't be the same cabinet meeting he.
Meets the same one.
South Australian Premier Peter Malanowski says he has a regional cabinet meeting that day.
He can't get far off away.
Queensland Premier Stephen Miles says he's too busy with campaigning for the re election.
Oh that's that sounds like a stretch. That's the weakest excuse i've heard thus far.
I think the best one.
Tasmanian Premier Jeremy Rockcliffe is on a US trade mission, so he's actually busy, all right.
He's a Western.
Australia's Premier Roger Cook says he just had other commitments.
Okay, even he took a leaf out of I think it's Zoe Foster Blake who's talked about this. You don't give an excuse because Charles might say it's all right, I'll go the next day when you don't have your cabinet meeting. Yeah, and then and then you're screwed, whereas this guy has gone absolutely not. I'm just out for the whole week. How about the New South Wales cabinet meeting.
But that's why I went because I didn't have a cabinet meeting obviously. But I'm interested to understand what this means, because obviously all of these people could make themselves available,
but they've chosen not to. Do you think that they all checked with each other, that there's a group text as a group chat, and they're all like, I'm not going, and it's all if you're not going, and I'm not going, and it's like, well, if we all make excuses, then there's no attention on any one of us fight turning up.
For example, if Tasmania just went, you'd look very loyalist. It would be almost a political statement to be the only one going. But I just keep thinking, this is a recurring nightmare of mind. This is why I don't have birthday parties, because I have this dream that I invite all of these people to my house and no one shows up, and poor Charles must be because remember there's humming with these coronations. He asked all the people to perform, and all of them said no.
Katie pir he said, yes, if you could live inside of a cartoon, which one would it be?
Barbie?
And why?
I really like Raquel and it's a good show and I watch it every night.
I will literally be like gues, I'm a barbe Come on.
Two things happened over the weekend that made me think about social media, children's faces, fame, and the choices that parents make. The first was Australian business owner Kick founder Steph clare Smith, who is mum to three year old Harvey, and over the weekend I noticed she uploaded a video of a day out with Harvey, but in that video, his face was blurred and that was the first time
I'd seen her blow his face. Reacting to what must have been some criticism, she then jumped onto her stories and said that along with her husband, they've decided to no longer share Harvey's face. He has been recognized on the street by people he doesn't know and that's really confusing for him. And so from now on she said, we won't see him on her Instagram, and she has one point five million followers.
We won't see him at all, or we just won't see his actual face.
We won't see his face, okay, And you know, she said, a lot of people are going, oh, well, why even upload that? If I scroll back, if I Google, I can find pictures of him. So what's the difference. And to that, she said, you don't have to understand my decision or agree with it. This is what we're doing moving forward now. The next thing I saw in my Instagram feet over the weekend was reality star and business owner Kim Kardashian speaking to Interview magazine beside her eleven
year old daughter Northwest. Clips from that conversation have since gone viral, which you heard at the top of the segment. Northwest was speaking about her relationship with God, how much she loves Barbie, her complicated relationship with the paparazzi, and how she can't wait to start her careers. Mostly she's brimming with business idea. She wants to have fashion label called Northwest, and the fact that she used careers plural,
I think says everything about this upcoming generation. These two examples felt like such an illustrative snapshot of the tensions that currently exist in our culture around sharing images of children online and if we do share, how much at what age? And can we change our decision? M you know social media better than just about anyone. Do you have any reaction when you see either someone share images of their kids or share images with their faces blurred out?
Because I've seen that increasingly as well.
When I first started seeing this happen, because I think only now a lot of my friends are having children, so there's a lot of kids on my Instagram feeds. Didn't ask for them to be. Yeah, I don't follow them. I follow my friends follow Get out of my face.
Nobody wants this, he said.
But what I've noticed is that you know how Instagram has like a close friends options when you do your Instagram stories, I've noticed that a lot of them will blur their kids' face on their main stories or their feed, but have the normal photo without the blur on their close friends stories. And I don't know how to ask why am I allowed to see your child? And who's not allowed to see your child?
Like?
Who doesn't make it?
So?
These aren't famous people to be clear.
No, these are like my friends who aren't famous.
I've got people who are influencers who I say do the same thing. I wonder that too.
I go, who are you?
Who is? And I get it, like maybe they know that they've got certain journalists or they've got I mean home a journalists.
But oh no, I completely understand that that's about having control, because anyone can follow you if you're not private, anyone can follow you on social media, and particularly if you need to have a public account for your job, particularly if you're an influencer, but if you're any person in
the public eye. Everybody kind of needs to promote their business these days, no matter what it is, so there will always be people following you who you don't know, whereas with close friends, you can literally choose maybe that's only four people, or maybe that's forty people, but they're all people who you actually know.
But what I want to know is also, if you're going to blur your kid's face, why post the photo in the first place. I think it ruins a really good photo.
I have heard a few of my friends get snarky about this because they say, just don't share it. It's fine. I will defend people uploading pictures with a blurred face, because if you want to share scenes from your life, and if you're a content creator, if you've got to feed that beast, then I totally get how you want to share parts of you and what you're doing. Your child is inevitably probably in some of those images, and so blurring their face means you can still share it
but not reveal their identity. And I think this is something I'm grappling with.
So you're saying that you can this is going to sound wrong perform your identity as a parent, and I don't mean perform has been faking, but like sharing your identity as a parent without sharing your child's actual identity exactly.
And if you're a parent, then that is what your weekends look like. Like what are you meant to do? Kick them out of the photo?
I was going to say, like do one photo for the family and then one I'm without the kids, so it's like you're just like in an empty high chair, like feeding nothing.
I totally get it, because my tension around this has been how do we protect the images of children who can't consent to having their image shared while also having important conversations about parenting and motherhood and not erasing the experience of parenting from the public domain, Like, how do you have conversations about that without children?
Well, maybe it's by blurring faces. I mean, it's interesting. I'm now going through it again with Lunar, my granddaughter, your child, and I'm really confirmed. Well, I'm actually not conflicted about it. I'm just not going to do it. I just haven't done it. At first.
I had.
I didn't do it because I didn't feel that it was my right to do it, because it's up to you and Luca. Now I I feel very clearly that I don't want to do it for the same reason that I don't do it for my own children and never have. Because I have a lot of people who are following me, and not all of those people like me. Some of those people hate follow me, and I would never want to put anyone that I love in that situation. And also, my children don't want to be public people.
Northwest clearly does, Sunday Rose clearly does. So she's on a catwalk. Although Nicole and Keith have almost never shared photos of their children, it's interesting now she's sixteen, she could consent and I know that's not social media that's being in the public eye. The question is what are children consenting to and are they capable of making those kinds of decisions?
And I suppose too, what are parent's consenting to? Right because we don't know. It's an ever changing beast that we don't fully understand. And what I really respect about Steph klas Smith I defect and her right to change her mind about So I think that that's a one year old is different to a three year old, is different to a thirteen year old, and we're all at
different stages. And I think that's the thing with parenting too, is that everyone has different values or hierarchy of values when it comes to parenting, and no judgment about what they are. Like my child is probably eating a lunch right now. That would horrify some listeners because the nutritional makeup of her lunch isn't my number one priority, right, But for other people, like if Steph Klasmith did want to share her child's face, like that's just how she's
choosing to parent. And because it's so public, I think everyone then feels like they get to have an opinion about it.
As we're all figuring it out. But the other thing is what she said, which is so relevant and I hadn't really thought about it before, is that it's a safety issue for these children. You have to teach your children about stranger danger and who you speak to in public and who's a safe person and who's not. If someone suddenly knows your name, recognize as you calls out
to you in the street. You're always with a three year old, but what if you're not, Yeah, when they're a little bit older and they're waiting outside the schoolgate and someone's like, hey, Harvey, your mum told me to come and pick you up, or even just hey Harvey, can I have a selfie? And you're not there to protect to.
Have Yeah, And how are you to anticipate that before it happens. That's something that I've recognized, right, Like I might have told this on the podcast before, but I was sharing images of Luna in particularly the first few months of her life. She is my entire world, so it feels like what else would I share? And a few comments popped up about I'd spoken on the podcast about her she was slow to gain weight, and a few really critical comments popped up about Luna and about
how she looked. And I read those and had this fierce protective instinct of say what you want about me, but you don't get to say that about my daughter. Like I was so so horrified by that, and I never would have thought that that would happen, like, which sounds so silly because you go, well, of course people are going to be critical. If people hate you, they'll hurt your kid, but of a baby, But of a baby.
It's like I had to have that experience to go all right, I am going to be forever navigating my relationship between how much I share about me and my child and all of it.
If Luna becomes more recognizable when she gets older, because right now, for me, like all babies can't look the same way.
I understand.
I agree with you.
I understand the change like showing your baby and then it becomes recognizable. So then you stop, do you reckon or stop showing her.
We've talked before about leaking intimacy and having moments. You know, my phone is just photos and videos of Luna that are being sent to family all the time.
And we're content creators. Yeah, so it's it's challenging, right because you're like, this is a funny story, this is a cute video. We all try to show up on social in an authentic way. And it often strikes me that my children and now Luna are my whole world, and I don't put any of them on social at all. But we're sort of talking about the downside of it.
The other side of it is just that when you're on social media, whether you have a big following or whether you don't, people do have a parasocial relationship with you, right, And that is a weird thing to come to terms with and to process. And we're all still doing it like that. People feel that they know us because they do know us, because we put a lot of ourselves out there, whether it's on this show or on our socials.
But that is a very big burden to give a child, because the person who wants a selfie might not be a kidnapper. They might just want a selfie. But that's weird, Like it's not a decision that they ever made out, it's just a bit of a head scrap.
I suppose is that if you are a public figure, then there's an element of that happening anyway. Right, you're walking down the street and people go, oh, my goodness, Hamish Blake, and if you're with your kids, then suddenly they're thrust into the spotlight. And we know Northwest is talking about being happed, like these children are also being
photographed without their permission. For the lacks of Northwest. I was thinking, yeah, she was in Vogue at one, but also her life has been the stuff of a reality television show since she was born, so she's of course yeah.
And it was really interesting to watch that video and read that interview. And she's on the cover of this magazine and she's eleven, right, and one of the quotes or one of the you know, it was her mother doing the interview. But I felt very this sounds like concern trolling. But the stuff you say at eleven, I don't know if you want that immortalized. Like she says some pretty full on stuff about God and about the devil and her siblings, and you know, even some of
the more innocuous stuff. Kim says to her, what do you want to be when you grow up? And north says, I don't know, because I already do a lot of stuff that I want to be when I grow up. I just want to pursue my careers now, and then Kim says, that's amazing that you know so young. What would be your fake name? This is the family business. The family business is reality TV, it's selling product, it's having all these kinds of opportunities because of your name.
And she sees her whole family work really hard as well, but they exist in front of the camera. She's never known anything else, and so does her father.
I saw as well.
Just recently, Saint, who's the I think next youngest maybe got a YouTube account and Kim Kardashin had Saint sign a contract that she shared, you know, all the accounts, even Kim and North. The TikTok account is definitely overseen by an adult, you can tell. And it's pretty harmless stuff. But when you're a parent, I think that you assume that everyone will love your child as much as you do because you see something very different to what the
rest of the world sees. So when I was sharing those images of Luna, I was like, can you even believe.
I have had the most breathtaking childs? And there people like she looks like a potato.
Yeah, And I feel like this is the whole universe in an image. Can you believe anything has ever been this cute? And the thing about the world is that they are simply not looking at the same photograph. And
so even Northwest I've seen. Do you remember recently the Lion King the she performed in the Music Hall and there was a Lion King clip and then that went viral because a lot of people went, well, I think that it's nepotism that she got this role and it was a terrible performance, and listened to her voice.
I felt the same way about Sunday Rose Kidman Urban who opened the show for Meumu. Now, she's a girl who was always the minute she was on a red carpet, and I noticed that Nicole had heard two daughters when she was inducted into a Hall of Fame for something recently, she had her two daughters on the red carpet with her for the first time, along with her sister and her niece. I was like, Oh, those girls are going to be models in a hot second, because they're tall,
they're beautiful, they're like all of those things. But to open a Mewmu show, that is a big friggin deal. And I get that she's sixteen. What an amazing opportunity, but she got absolutely slammed because that's what the internet is, right, Like, there are going to be people who are going to be lovely, but most of the people who are going to comment are going to say horrible things. Oh that's
a big thing to expose your child too. So as a parent, how do you balance that between here's this amazing opportunity, Yeah, what am I exposing them to?
Because it has to come out one way, right, So is it better to come out as an eleven year old or as a sixteen year old? Like even with the Northwest stuff. I was watching that interview, and everything she says, in my eyes, seemed fine for an eleven year old to say, because all eleven year olds are notissist, Like, that's something.
I would have said. I would have said the exact same thing.
I can't wait to do my careers, except my mom would have been like, that's my sweetie. We is like tell me more like she's like indulging that behavior.
It's trademarket.
Yeah, And I think that's the biggest difference, where they've been sheltered and then suddenly they want to do something and the parent has to decide should I do it now or should I wait a bit later, Like when will be the strongest point in their life that they can have this feedback come back.
And let's not pretend that we're not marinating in a culture where having a public presence isn't something most people want, even at eleven, like the thing about Northwest, even watching that Northwest wants to be on camera. And I've heard a lot of people say this about content creators going. My five year old loves it, like we have all
this time together. And I know that it can to some people it might look a bit dangerous, but there are very few jobs that allow parent to spend time with their child while also making money to make homemaking or like what's happening inside the house monetized.
What's tricky is I came up in the Internet at the time of mummy bloggers that and it was an amazing time. And it was the first time that women's roles as parents were visible, and that was a beautiful thing and it helped so many people will feel seen
and also the people express themselves. But the toll on those children when the Internet flipped and needed you to make money, make branded content, you know, Heather Armstrong was very famously probably the og mummy blogger, and she had a blog called Douce and she used to write so incredibly about her children and parenting and she was such
a funny writer. But then when she had to do branded content, she was like, my kids hate having to do this and perform and talk about this brand or go in this car or and she was really torn and she had to give it up because they just didn't want to do it. And I was listening to a podcast interview with a YouTube family creator who made the same decision. But it's hard to walk away from
all of that money. And the money is also you know, it was going to pay for their college and becomes a way to support the family.
Your life, your work can be a lot more flexible, You get to spend more time with the people you want to spend more time with.
Yeah, so those decisions come even harder when money is involved. And you might feel one way that I don't want to show my child's face, but then you get this opportunity, well, we're going to pay you ten thousand dollars if you do this thing for this brand with your child in it. And then you say well, that ten thousand.
Dollars could means I work one less daal Ware.
Exactly, and I can be with my child more or Yeah, the opportunities that it brings you. So there's no easy answer. I think what I love about Steph klas Smith is that she's figuring it out.
And I also resent that in this whole conversation the people we ever talk about are mother's. I have never heard or even seen a comment about a father. Sharing a picture of the child is just applause that you're spending good time with them. Out Louders let us know what you think. You can jump into the out Loud Facebook group. You can send us a voice note and send it to out loud at mummeat dot com dot au.
We always love your feedback and if you want to hear more from Steph Klaire Smith, there is a brilliant episode of but Are You Happy? You can listen to that by clicking on the link in the show notes.
You should be.
Diating hot Rabbi.
We definitely are a week.
I just heard him introduce you as his friend.
You're going to turn your whole left wepsode down fantastic. You're never going to end that with my son.
On the weekend, it was announced that the Netflix rom com Nobody Wants This is going to have a second season after the first season has been the number one show in the streaming world for the last couple of weeks. It stars Adam Brody who was I Didn't watch the Open and Seth Cohen. He plays Noah, a cool La rabbi who falls in love with an agnostic podcast host called Joanne played by Kristen Bell.
Is a millennial's wet dream.
Joanne isn't Jewish, but the show is about how love conquers all, or maybe it doesn't. It was created by Aaron Foster, who, like Joanne, hosts a podcast with her sister and married a Jewish guy despite not being Jewish herself. And there are two big themes in the show that we think has contributed to its breakthrough global success, and we wanted to unpack them today. Will there be spoilers? Not really, This isn't really about the show.
Itself, because I will speak from the perspective I've got two episodes to go, and so I will not have it spoiled. I still don't know, will they won't they? I don't have the answer yet, so you know, no spoilers from you to a challenge.
Okay, not really because anyway, I won't spoil it. The first theme of this show, why people are saying that it's really cut through, is that it depicts the idea of healthy relationships, or more importantly, it flips the script on the usual girl chasers guy who doesn't want to commit stereotype by portraying this very securely attached guy Noah who's trying to pin down an avoidant woman Joanne, who
is a bit of a fuck up. And it also has a great subplot of the main character's siblings, and this is the second sort of theme we wanted to explore. Noah's brother and Joe and sister call themselves loser siblings, and they make a group chat between the two of them called.
That having siblings is hard, especially when one sibling is the clear loser. You may be suffering from losers siblings syndrome. If your sibling cringed in school when teachers asked if the two of you were related, your sibling jokes that you'll have to live in their basement one day. There's a secret family group chat that you're not a part of you did it yet another walking red flag, and instead of being surprised, your family says, that's so you
you were born the middle child. Sound familiar, we thought.
So that's been so successful that TikTok is demanding the loser siblings, who are Justine Loop who plays Morgan and Timothy Simons who plays Sasha, have their own show because they want to what happens with them. I actually, funnily enough, did an episode of No Filter this week about attachment theory and this idea of the secure attachment style and all the other attachment styles. There are three others, and the secure is the most healthy, but it's not shown in rom coms very.
Much ever, and it's not ever shown in even like fiction movies, rom coms because in order for there to be a complication, that complication often has to be internal. So there are all these roadblocks, so someone is anxiously attached or avoidant, and so you have one chasing like a cat and mouse situation.
Yeah.
What was genius about this was that the complication which is required in order to sustain a ten episode.
And ten episodes is long.
It's long. All the complications were external. They were the fact that he is Jewish and he's around.
He didn't approve, His family didn't approve, her sister didn't approve.
Yeah. So actually their relationship from the beginning, and what I thought was so appealing about it was that I went, that is what it's like meeting your person, like when you fall in love. I'm sure this isn't universal, but in my experience when I fell in love, it became very uncomplicated internally. There wasn't will he text. You know, we've just seen the phenomenon of it ends with us, where there's all this really toxic behavior that toxic stuff
for you know, healthy relationships often evaporates. And this became like a bingo card of green flax of all the things that when you see in someone, like organizing the date, being emotionally available, apologizing, went last stuff up, not lying, not hiding things, not hiding things.
All of it transparent.
Was like a guidebook. There's this article going around about a different movie and kind of praise kink. This is like healthy relationship kink in terms of the woman who just wants someone who is stay predictable clearly is really into her. Yeah, And there's a complication because otherwise we wouldn't watch it. But it's all external.
Does that actually exist though in real life? Like that's secure?
Like I've never once met a secure person In relationships, I feel like there's always and always am anxious, like someone's always chasing, someone always likes the other person a little bit more.
Yes, but you don't have to be avoidant. I think that in this I said that Joanne was avoidant. She you're right, Aunt Jesse. She's not actually avoidant, but she's complicated, complicated and she doesn't know, but you're right. They just want to be together.
Early on in the series, she has this moment where she says, I'm terrified I'm too much, that I'm going to say I want you, that I'm going to have to rely on someone, and that You're going to say I'm too much. And I was reading this review that said, you know, millions of women around the world have had that exact dialogue where they've tried to sustain their own sort of independence because they don't want to be porous and they don't want to rely on someone because they're
terrified of being let down. And in this case, the show was almost showing the stability of Adam Brady.
It's funny you say that. My favorite line in the whole thing, the one that just made me melt, was when he said I can handle you.
Yeah, like, oh.
I think as well that what you say about the loser siblings. The gold for me was also the relationship between the sisters. I think there are a few things funnier, you know this m than the relationship between sisters, Like it is so nuanced and so weird and so perfectly written that for a lot of women we also saw it was.
The sister relationship well written, as you both have sisters and I don't.
And I think the reason they made them sisters was because if they were best friends and they had like their big fights, I don't think they could have convinced us that they would make up so quickly, whereas with sisters you always make up.
In the same conversation, in the same conversation.
But do you want to go just watch a movie?
The chemistry as well, like everyone's talking about how this chemistry just exploded and the kiss, and you know, they're both obviously very attractive. Interestingly, they're totally ageless, like they don't give any indications of how old they are marriage. Babies don't really come up other than the Jewish thing. But the chemistry for me came from the humor, like they just had exactly the same sense of humor, and that was the hottest thing. The banter, the banter that
kind of went back and forth. And the podcasting I thought was funny because Sex and City is obviously like the kind of sitcom that every millennial gen X woman is obsessed with, and that was the column. The rom com has this device of like even how to Lose a Guy in Ten Days, where it's the column and you're writing and you're living and you're reflecting and you're funny.
It's the career girl of the moment, what's her job?
Yes? And in this it was basically call her.
Day, yes, except with two of them. And it's funny because I went and listened to their actual podcast, which is shambolish, like it's not it made me feel good about us in terms of how organized we are, but it is actually a very accurate depiction and they are just like wandering off and going to the bathroom and eating. And it's funny because I think they've got a whole lot more listeners now and everyone now, but it's still
as completely shambala and disorganize. But they were saying that one of the criticisms of the series is, oh, as if you could make enough money to support yourself by having this shambolic podcast, and they were like, we do, and we have, as they threw to one of their seventeen hours, and you actually wrote a story for Mum and mea that was about another issue that you found really poignant when you watch this show.
Yeah, this is exactly the relationship we were talking about before,
the relationship between Joanne and Morgan, the sisters. When you see Joanne kind of just swept away into this relationship and Justine access so well because you can see the cogs in her brain like as she's acting this out of like watching your person find their person and seeing yourself slowly loose them, the sense of loss and the sense of loss and you can't be upset because it's not like you were in a relationship with them, and you have to be happy for them because you want
them to be happy. And it's one of those situations where it's happened to me so many times where like I've had my best friend and then she falls in love and I see her slowly like stepping out of my life in weird ways, like finding out like oh, I'm not your emergency contact anymore, or like oh, you don't have me on find my friends anymore. And I'm meant to be okay with that. And I don't even get the breakup. Yeah, Like I just get.
The slow goo.
That's so interesting. That's a little bit like when your child grows up and falls in love and moves away from me. It's a little bit like when Luca found you, Jesse. Not such a sense the sense of loss was maybe was smaller for me. There was also the beautiful sense of gain of watching your person be loved in the way that you think they deserve to be loved. That's beautiful.
I certainly had that with Claire, like when she met her person a lot younger than I did. It was this me of grief and joy, like this bizarre, bizarre mix.
And I think that's why I was impressed they made them sisters, because even being that single best friend, you know, there are certain things you can't say without it sounding like you're the sad single best friend, Like you can't comment on their partner if you didn't like something they said, because then you're jealous. You're automatically you're a jealous person who just wants to be in a relationship. I'm having a sad dating app with your sister or with friends
with friends, it's happened with friends. I think there's too much of an age gap between me and my sister. But when they were having that fight and Joanne said it's like, not my fault, you're still un stuck on the sad dating apps, that hit something in me.
Oh that was that was a deep cart.
Because I feel like when you're talking about like the dating app stage of life, a lot of people see that as a phase, and I'm like, some women have been on dating apps the entire like dating life.
And there's a smugness of like I graduated, I got out, Yeah, and you're still stuck. Like that hit a nerve and I was like so happy that that blew up for them, Like that was like the catalyst.
Because you felt defensive. Yeah, out louder is if you want to hear more about attachment styles and what yours might be, plus what it says about you. Guess what, I'm not one of the functional ones. There's only one functional one and I'm not have a Listen to today's episode of No Filter when you can hear my conversation with doctor Morgan Anderson, who is an expert on attachment theory. There is a link in the show notes.
And what do you think you are?
What attachment style?
I've been told by a man I think you said to me? Have you always been an avoidant?
So the four styles are secure, avoidant, anxious, and disorganized?
Which one's the worst?
Is there?
Avoidant?
Secure is the only one you want to be. That's where we're all aiming to be. It's at the top of the leaderboard, something to work towards.
If you want to know what Holly and I are, you can listen to tomorrow's subscribe episode where look, we took a quiz and we had some insights and we had there was a bit of soul searching, So you can listen to that tomorrow. Wan unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week. And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Nate May why hey me your mate? Mate?
Thanks?
Mate?
Look mate?
No, you look mate.
A father of a retail worker went on Reddit to ask if calling someone mate was now offensive. So he said that his daughter called the customer mate, and towards the end of their interaction, the customer said, can I tell you something? Please don't call me mate. His daughter Dan apologized and said, I'm sorry if I've offended you. The customer said it's unprofessional to use that word in
the workplace. He said that his daughter was pretty sure the customer was Australian and has now kind of spiraled and has like stopped using any sort of like langui customers. So I went onto this Reddit post and I was looking at all of the comments, and a lot of them were quite shocked that someone said that it's offensive, like don't call me mate. But there were few people
who did say that it's not offensive, but it is unprofessional. Jesse, what goes through your mind and someone' say hey mate, how are you going?
It is so neutral to me that I don't even hear it. I absolutely use it in the workplace. I used to work behind a bar for years and years always said mate, I like it because it's gender neutral, a concert to men.
And women, so you say mate to women.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wonder if one of the reasons if I have got this gender dynamic, correct, did an older man not like being called mate by a younger woman? And is it because the word mate infers equality? And that's why I think that it's uniquely Australian because everyone's your mate. It kind of suggests that there's no hierarchy, that we're all on the same level.
And there are some thought she should have been subservient.
Yes, I wonder if that's what it was about, that he should have been sir or something that kind of.
My king, my king, that it was too informal.
It was too informal, and that she should because sometimes they teach you. I remember it when I worked at this pub. It was they wanted you to say sir and Ma'm like as a way of.
At the pub at the pub, and I was like, I.
Will, over my dead body, I will just not be referring. And I also think it makes people feel old and I think I just.
Think someone younger than you exactly.
Sometimes I see it in the eyes of people who are like giving you a coffee or whatever, where they choose whether they're going to go with you know, dull, ma'm.
Pet pet petal love sweetheart.
Yeah. I don't think we should be choosing spur of the moment. I think it makes people feel judged. I think we just go mate.
Eating mates a safe bet.
I think it's safe.
I was thinking about the word mate and how its versatility is possibly what can make it problematic, because how it's intended might not be how it's received. So tone and setting and subject all these things can completely alter the definition of the words. So you can call your best friend mate with great affection, right, So that's the way I think most people would be thinking about it in this context, like mate, have you been? You know?
But you can also address a complete stranger as mate in an unfamiliar encounter, particularly if you don't know their name, if you've forgot their name. Mate or babe are the two easy ones.
Yep. Luca has said to me before, actually we've been doing exciting at home and I've gone something like listen here, like just use the word mate to Luca, and he has said that gives me that he really doesn't like it in a romantic relationship. Because it is.
It's quite snarky.
It's snarky, but it's also very unsexual. Yeah, like, that's true. It's a little bit distant.
Do you use it? But there's other ways. I've got more ways. It can be a complete sentence like may like that's almost. That can also convey exasperation. And then if you say it like bead ly, like with a bit of a snap in your voice, it can make it very clear that you're pissed off, like mate, you're in my car spot. Yeah, yeah, anyone said that to me, Yeah, just yesterday.
It feels more aggressive than if they said you're in my car correct. Absolutely.
And then old mate maybe she called him old mate even like that. I actually like old mate. And then when we often will say to Holly or you, like if I'm talking about Jordan Peterson, I'll go, your mate is in the need, which is like.
Figure out.
So there's so many different ways to use it, and that's why I think maybe it can be misinterpreted. Sometimes I'm similar to Luca.
I never use the word mate. I hate it, but I will use the word mate when I'm talking to certain men to make sure that they know I don't want to have sex with them.
Oh nice, Okay, play that out. How does it work? Well?
If a guy comes up to me and he's like, hey, can I buy you a drink or anything?
No thanks, mate?
Yeah?
Yeah, that's like a very no.
This is platonic. Yeah, because if you just went no thanks, it would thank you. It would open'd be like, oh can I get you something out? I love it when men call me mate, really, I really do. I also like the women call me mate.
What's friendly?
When my kids called me mate, they're taking the pierce.
Oh yeah, absolutely, you're right mate, our executive producer who I think this context is important because we are missing the British perspective in Hollywood. I think you should give a Monsurian accent. She was saying that when she first got to Australia she found it aggressive, that it was something that in a different context can feel like, hey, mate, can just feel like I guess it can feel quite bloky and aggressive. I can kind of see how that would.
It can be a bit like the precursor to some biffo like yeah, like it can almost be an insult, like an aggressive challenge to someone.
But the ones I'm hearing a lot lately, are hey boss? Do you hear this like I hear it at the gym?
Queen? My daughter calls me queen.
That's so cute.
She doesn't know like, I don't care, Like I'll just be called anything.
How about hate Chapman, Buddy?
I like buddy.
I think buddy, Hey Buddy, Hi buddy, buddy.
Kids Reddit thread said why don't you just call them friend? Hey? Friends?
I say that sometimes. I'll say hey friend if I can't remember someone's name, often to.
The person at the cafe or the.
No, but someone who I'm familiar with. Actually, not just people that I say sweet. I don't say a lot, hey sweetie, hey friend. I'll say hey friend. That's like an affectionate.
What's your term of endearment for the lovely person behind the counter when you're doing your grocery shopping? What do you call them?
Thanks? Your a legend. I'll call them. I use them like a noun, like a legend. I won't say mate, No, I won't say buddy. I won't say I say you're a babe.
Yeah.
I won't call them anything. I don't know. I've got a friend who calls waiters darling. Female waiters I don't. I don't like it. I think she's never been a waiter and I have been.
I don't hate it.
You don't like you don't want darling?
Darling? Well, it depends on the tone and whether or not it's condescending. But if they're being complimentary, I'm happy for them to call me anything.
But yeah, oh no, I don't mind. I use that as a term of affection too.
As the boss in this room. Yeah, is it unprofessional? If I was using mate a lot in the workplace in meetings?
There was a time where you hated when we said, dude, do you remember that, you made like a full announcement stop calling people too.
Yeah, it was weird.
I was someone who once started working here and had just met me started calling me bestie my time. Yeah, I think language is fun. I like people to play with language.
So we ask people in the mumumme office who've moved to Australia some of the phrases they did not understand.
Here's what they said.
My favorite Australian scene, possibly my favorite scene hands down from anywhere, is I'm not here to fox fiders because it makes sense, but at the same time, it actually makes a lot of sense. And I'm also just waiting to finally meet the cherson who actually is here for fuck spiders. That would be a very special day for me.
So when I first moved to Australia from New Zealand, we would always go to barbacues and drinks with a chiliban, and so I'd be telling everyone to put everything in the chiliban, or like where's beer? And I'm like, well, in the chiliban and you call it eski here, which is actually after the brand where there. We're quite literal on New Zealand, and we call it a chili ban, so something that you get chilled under them.
Okay. So when I first moved to Australia, some very lovely mums at the school gates said, you know, come over. I got a few people coming. Bring a plate. I thought this was a little strange. I was like, I can bring a plate. I will bring a plate. But then I was like, do I put food on the plate?
Surely not.
I don't understand.
Anyway, I turned up.
I had a pack of emergency Sos tim Tams in my bag, but I also had a plate just in case, and I've got lots of expat friends here who have all confessed the.
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