You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the sixteenth of March. I'm Holly Wayne Wright.
And I'm Claire Stevens and I'm Amelia Lastov.
And the reason I sound a bit scattered is because I'm very excited. Regular out louders well know, I'm a big Oscars fan. I used to work in celebrity magazines. This was like the biggest day of the year. I love my movies, I love my stars. I am amped. And today we're going to give you all the gossip. We're going to give you all the things that grabbed our attention, the frocks we loved. We're not running through, like blow by blow, everything that happened and whether or
not it should have done. We're just going to give you what grabbed our attention. And there will be a few spoilers in here too.
Plus the Louis Theroux documentary everyone's talking about and our quite stringent attempts to find a few glimmers of hope within it.
And I want to talk about reply only. Frank maybe you are one of them.
But first in case you missed it. In Batshit Theories of the Week. In case you missed it, there's a whole thing going on about if you put a picture of Timothy's challomay, we we'll talk more about our chalo maay later next to a picture of Henry Cavell. Do we all know who he is? Handsome British, Yeah, British, British movie star who you find more attractive, says more about you than your taste. Goes this theory, let me just explain and then we'll unpack why it may or
may indeed be nonsense. In the interests of bursting my bubble, I follow a magazine called ev on Instagram. We've talked about Evie on this show. It's like in America, it's like the conservative Cosmo. So it's kind of sells itself as like a woman's lifestyle site, magazine whatever. But it's all very like how to please your husband, don't be promiscuous, get married quickly, all that kind of stuff.
Right.
They've had this post up about challow may and Cavell says in the latest Internet discourse some women on x this is on Twitter claiming Henry Cavell isn't that attractive. But there may actually be scientific explanation for why some women say they prefer Timothy Chalomaye instead. Research suggests that women on hormonal birth control tend to be more drawn to men with softer, more feminine features. Coincidence, asks Evie, because they're just asking questions, Amelia. This has been jumped
on by lots of conservative commentators. Lauren Chen sent a tweet completely viral, and then Elon Musk of course shared it, where she said, thinking Timothy Shalomay is more attractive than Henry Cavell is what happens when you've been on birth control for ten years.
Elon Musk actually reposted it with the bulls eye emoji. And I just want to know who does he think he looks like?
He looks like Henry cavill And also we know he doesn't approve of birth control because he has twenty million children. But I'm not a scientist, but Clare Stephens certainly is oh definitely, is it true that being on the pill or on DHRT, when it comes to it, is going to make you fancy, shallow, made more than cavil.
No, And this is an example, This is an example of misinformation on the Internet, which we'll probably get to you in a later segment. It is so frustrating to look at this. It's wrong on so many levels. I'll start with a scientific level and then we'll move to logic.
So what if you find both of them attractive? Yeah, what does that say the state of your hor I think.
You're a hoe.
Ev Magazine would.
Elon Musk would say you're a hoe. So that was based on a twenty twelve study. What Evie magazine was citing. That's quite a long time twenty twelve, and there was another big study in two thousand and eight. You won't believe it, but there's been studies since, and you won't believe it. But the study since have actually showed that
that was a complete non fabrication. So study in twenty nineteen found no evidence that women using oral contraceptives had weaker preferences for male facial masculinity than did women not using oral contraceptives. And then in twenty twenty five, that was just last year. You may remember, there was a randomized control trial that was like a double blind study. That is the golden standard of any kind of scientific research.
So it meant that they randomly assigned some women to be on the pill, randomly assigned some women to be on placebo, and then they did this experiment no statistically significant effect of oral contraceptives on preferences.
For facial hoping to not get pregnant.
I know, right, it's like, oh, sorry, we didn't think about that ethical consideration. But the fact that an article can be written that acts like it's citing scientific research and then ignores the last fourteen years of that scientific research is so infuriating. So there's that aspect, But then
there's the logic. So that Evey Magazine article tries to argue at the end that the big problem here, the worry for women is that what's going to happen is you're going to be on hormone or birth control, and then you're going to marry someone and then you're going to go.
Off to Michael and you'll want Henry Carol.
And it's like, you know what else might actually affect what women get tied to for their entire lives having a baby with that man. Hence birth control, Like do you know what I mean? Like before birth control, women, the freedom that birth control has offered women outweighs.
That to choose a mate.
Yes, even if that were true. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that at the beginning of that article they write that it's easy to watch a James Dean movie and wonder why there aren't men like that anymore. We sat in a cinema a few weeks ago and watched women salivate over Jacob Alordi no bless him, who's pretty bloody. Similar, there's Adam Driver, there's Paul mescal And then they have a line about how a tea teen age girl is more likely to lust over Lil Huddy
than Jacob a lord who is little Huddy. And also teenage girls shouldn't be the consideration here because they're less likely to be your birth control than women in the twenties.
All my fun I just want to come with the side of culture war, and I was enjoying it.
Also, I like, I'm not on birth control, but I am pregnant, so that might effect.
But you're a Shallama aunt.
Yeah, but birth control, no birth control, pregnancy, no pregnancy. I go Shalla May over Henry Cavill. I think Henry Cavill looks a little bit more.
That's science. That is science. So we have been watching the Oscars on and off all morning, all lunchtime. I heard some whoops around the office, not many. It wasn't the most exciting of ceremonies they were.
It had its moments.
I had its moments. We're going to be talking about made people whoop in a moment. But we can't talk about the Oscars without talking about dresses. Now, Mia is going to bring her forensic some may say judgmental view on fashion and the Red Carpet tore tomorrow's episode in detail, as well as the after party outfits, which are always more interesting these days. But friends, we have to do a who you like best on the Red Carpet? Amelia, I got two.
I got a man and a woman. Best dressed woman Rose r Rose Berner Indior Anne Hathaway went for a similar look. They were both kind of wearing some might say wallpaper adjacent designs, but they both looked beautiful. But Rose looks like a movie star, and by that I mean she looks like an exceptionally attractive person who was having a lot of fun.
And interestingly I made the same observation, but I feel like Rose Burns was like the modern version of that dress and the jewelry and that kind of thing, whereas Anne Hathaway's was like the old.
Well she got. She had like elbow length gloves on.
Yes.
Yes.
And my best dressed man is Pedro Pascal, who did not have his mustache. I think there was some gasps of dismay in the office when he showed up on the red carpet clean shaven. No one's ever seen him aout the mustache before.
What you just heard me do.
Yeah, the mustache made its way onto Leo's face.
It did crawl across the red carpet clan.
I quite liked Leo.
I did not. I like clean shaven Pedro. He was in white channel, he had this big silk and feather brooch on. And what I love about him is that he always looked so well moisturized.
Yeah, you're right. I thought the boys, though, did you notice they were a lot of them were either all in white like Chalamaie like fool full white, or all in black so like black timeless.
That's true.
But I think our Jacob classic three piece suit with the waistcoat, I mean, I know, it's hard to look bad when you're seventeen feet to Anie took his mom.
He did, he did take you.
You have a little bit of an issue there.
It's a deflection because who is dating people would find a little bit problematic. So he takes his mom and everyone's like, oh, taking his.
Mom because he's dating.
He's dating Olivia.
Olivia talked about this last week.
Yeah, Olivia Jade, who's who was involved in the college admissions candle. I just think she's so beautiful. But to be.
Fair, the serious actors always take their moms. Leo took his mom for years. Charala Maai used to take his mom. He still doesn't walk with Kylie, like not really. I think the serious actors are always like, we're not going to talk about this.
Yeah, true, honorable mention to Jacob Lordie's scruffy hair. You just know that that particular scruff took hours. It was just so intentional, but it was so beautiful. I'm going to be boring and agree with Amelia that Rose Byrne was absolutely best stressed. But I'll also mention I thought Demie Moore's look was.
Too many feathers, many feathers.
I mean, our Nick was in feathers too.
And so was Tayana Taylor who I did think looked amazing, and she's been she's from one battle after another, and she has been absolutely hammering. The red carpet looks with lots of really out sort of out there things, So her in those feathers was actually quite yeah, well key for her. It looked amazing.
The other one that, yes, needs it, need to mention is Emma Stone looked that color, that fabric, Oh, that looked absolutely beautiful. Louisverton a little capslee.
Emma Stone does not look like Emma Stone anymore. I know you've borded me saying this. Bridget Dulaney wrote a great piece in The Guardian a couple of days ago about how movie stars used to just be like better looking than the rest of us, and we could aspire to that and we liked looking at them, and it was all very uncomplicated. And now movie stars just look like AI generated cyborgs. And I have to include a number of the people who walk the carpet tonight in that category.
We discussed this all the time. I thought she looked amazing, very very thin, but that's her thing.
But I thought she has the dress, probably the only person in the world who could wear that dress. Can we just quickly? I hated Timmy's look. I hated the sunglasses. I hated the boots. They were like hospital boot.
Leave the boy aler.
It was like a double breasted white suit, which I think so yes, suits haven't been this controversial since Obama wore a tan suit.
Yeah, you know, I have to award a high degree of difficulty right for the very pregnant? Would me Masaku? She is from Sinners, she played Annie and Sinners, the heart of that movie. Amazing actress, she's about to have a baby, and she was like, because Hailey Steinfeld, who's also in Sinners, she is also heavily pregnant, and she didn't go, but I think that one me was like, no, I'm freaking going. And she wore this amazing Louis Vton
green sequince. But it is not easy to pull off a red car and that would have been custom made for her, and she looked freaking a million dollars. Anyway, that's the Frocks, as we say, he is going to do more on that tomorrow. But moving inside, Conan O'Brien was hosting now he hosted last year, generally seemed to be a pretty safe choice. In these polarizing times. And remember America as a millionaires better than anyone half the
audience hate the other half of the audience. Are you going to make jokes for one half of the audience and not the other. He kind of played it very safe. He did make an Epstein gag that is coming up in this Here's a little collection from his opening monologue.
Great to be back hosting the Oscars. Last year when I hosted Los Angeles was on fire, but this year everything's going great. Security is extremely tight tonight. I's got to mention that. Yeah, I'm told there's concerns about attacks from both the opera and ballet communities. They're just mad you left out jazz. It's the first time since twenty twelve, first time since twenty twelve that there are no British
actors nominated for Best Actor or Best Actress. Yeah, British spokesperson said, yeah, well at least we arrest our pedophiles, so we got that going.
We pay tribute.
Tonight, not just a film, but to the ideals of global artistry, collaboration, patience, resilience and that rarest of qualities today optimism. So let us please celebrate. Let us celebrate.
That last bit was like him saying giving everyone permission to have a nice night. Yeah, being like what.
We do is important.
I love Conan. I think he's so funny and his Hot Ones episode is the greatest twenty minutes of Internet ever. But I forgot my AirPods today and I was watching him perform without sound, and he looked like a silent movie star and he was just trying so hard, and there was something about it that felt really old fashioned to me.
Yeah, on the whole ceremony feels and tics of it all with him, Yea, I agree.
And there were several jokes that to me fell flat and just felt like absolutely anyone like my dad would have made them. There are a couple of good ones. I'm glad that it only took a few seconds to get the ballet upright joke out of the messing around with that.
And it was nicely delivered.
Yeah, it's tricky because do you remember for a while there the OSCARS was trying to be relevant with its hosts, and there was that year when it was unhad the way James Frank or whatever, like nobody wanted.
To do it.
It was ahead of its time that one, but it became like a poison chalice. Nobody wanted that gig because it's the most criticized blah blah. So now they've obviously just gone, let's keep that. Billy Crystal did it for like what seemed like a hundred years.
And he appeared on stage briefly tonight as well in the immemorium section talking about Rob Reiner. But I just wonder if in this sort of stripped back TikTok age, someone trying as hard as cone and just falls flat.
And you know, like a lot of the Oscars does feel like it's still nineteen eighty two, like the music, like when people are coming on and off, the glamorous Lady who leads everybody on and office's so weird. Now, Emelia and I were talking about the set and how it looked really dark and weird, and then I read that according to Vanity Fair, the year's stage design is meant to represent a calming garden courtyard.
It doesn't it look like a mausoleum.
And what's weird is that I feel like with the red carpet, the official Oscars red carpet is very of the moment. They've got a Millia to Oldenberg and she does it and she's so funny, and sometimes that gets criticized the idea of like influencers on the red carpet, But they're funny and they bring out funny stuff in the people they interview. But I agree, I think the entire ceremony is too earnest. I think everyone's being too earnest all the time. And I'm like, calm down, yeah,
the ice. I don't need you to.
To hand it over to Rock Nation, who do like the super Bowl and they just need to be like, what would you do with the Oscars because it's their big night, right And I get it. If I worked in that industry, it would be a big deal to be there and all that stuff. But it just does feel, as you said, Emelia, like it's from another time. Okay, we have to get to the biggest upset of the night if it's an upset, because we did kind of
predict it. But three months ago you would have thought that chalamay, my little Timmy had a lock on this Best Actor nomination and win. He was nominated last year for the Bob Dylan Movie. At that point, he made a big point about how much he wanted to win it and how hard he's been working, and then on the Mardi Supreme press tour he's been talking loads about the quality of work he's been churning out. I think he's been nominated three times in ten years, which is
a lot. He's only thirty. But he blew it and it went to Michael B. Jordan, which is justice because, as Emily Vernon pointed out on Friday's show, Michael B. Jordan should really have got two awards because he played twins. But do we think that the backlash in motion Ameilia.
The Charla May backlash is here? And I don't just know that because you've been taking all the blue tech off your Timmy posters around your desk today, Holly. I think it started. I can pinpoint exactly when it started when he and Kylie Jenner appeared on the Red Carpet in those matching orange pleaver outfits. A few months ago he was promoting My Supreme. He was wearing orange. But I think it was just too much for everyone. It was far too naff. From there on, he hasn't recovered
the ground. In fact, he's lost more with the opera and ballet remarks There's an interesting article in The New York Times today by Navine Kumar called Wasn't Timothday's Charla May is supposed to be a new kind of leading man, and I think her premise is really interesting. She makes the point that in twenty seventeen, when he burst onto the scene, he was in Ladybird, Greta Gowig's movie. He was in Call Me by Your Name, there was a gay love story. He wore a backless red holter neck
on the red carpet. We thought he was kind of post heterosexual man.
EV Magazine thinks that's sure.
But now he's sort of been revealed to not be what we all pinned on him or projected on to him. And I think we're all just feeling like we were sold a bill of goods. Do you think that's right?
I do? But I also I have to examine my attitude about it because I think a lot of it's to do with his choice of partner, right, and Kylie Jenner, And I don't think that's fair, do you know what I mean? Like, I think that our whether it's misogyny, whether it's snobbery about Kylie Jenner and the kardashianness of it all has rubbed off on him and tainted his brand. And the truth of it is, he is incredibly good
at what he does. Like Marty Supreme, whether you particularly like that movie or not, his performance is extraordinary, and the same with the Bob Dylan movie and the same with everything he does. So he's a great actor. And I think that for a long time people were like, oh, he knows how to promote a movie and open a movie. That was the narrative when Marty Supreme came out, and they were like, very few actors can open a movie and take it to the top of the box office,
not gen z but he can. Him and Zende are seen as the great saviors of youth cinema. And it's like he went too hard, and then I think he went too hard, and then the establishment went, yeah, but you're not very Ardi, are you, because you're kind of
with the Kardashians now. And I wonder if there's just a bit of old fashioned snobbery at play there, because although we've all been gripping our pearls about him saying what he said about opera or ballet, he wasn't wrong, as in it's not like the average guy in the street who's paying to go and see Sinners or Marti Supreme is a massive opera ballet fan, but it's given the establishment a really good reason to turn stobby on him.
I reckon he just has the Leonardo DiCaprio cz which is he's going to be nominated over and over and over again and he's going to lose over it.
Different to Leo, I was actually going to bring him up because I think they're an interesting study. In contrast, Leo dates Victoria's Secret Models famously. We kind of all just make jokes about it, and it's become part of his persona. But he gets cast in the Martins Corsese films year after year. There's no sense of his credibility
being eroded because of his love life choices. Why is it that we don't like Charalamae with Kylie Jenner, but we forgive DiCaprio with his carousel of under twenty six.
Year olds because we dehumani because they do. Yeah, that's exactly which is a little bit.
I don't think he I think that twenty six year olds have damaged his reputation. I definitely do. I think that I'm particularly among younger women. That's the only thing they'd know about Leonardo DiCaprio is that he dates twenty six year olds. I think there is a tarnish to him from that he's seeing. There's a bit sad.
I reckon Timmy will have his moment. I don't think this was his moment because I don't think he was the best actor like him. Losing could have been. Yes, the whole publicity train and how it got derailed, all of that, But I do think Michael B. Jordan was better and heved it.
You're right. I don't mean in any way for this comp like for this Chalamagne nomination to make it sound Michael B. Jordan's somehow Brad breathed this. Of course he didn't. He absolutely deserved it. But it's just interesting how quickly the narrative turned. It was very much schaalamey chalamey, chalomay, and then it was very much oh no, no, no,
no no. You know. So it's I think that justice has been served in that as much as you can have a conpept performances and anything like Michael B. Jordan's amazing, but the backlash of Chala May is very interesting and very Kardashi encoded.
I think, Yes, I saw a behind the scenes ish clip of Timothy seeing your sister and so she comes Ballerina his Ballerina's sister comes and says hi to him in the front row, and yeah, the interaction of doing her Kylie's awkward, That's all I'll say. But I think there's some awkwardness in the family.
What else did we love? Slashd not love.
What I loved from like a Shade and Freud perspective was during the Sinner's performance I Lied to You, which was bloody brilliant. There's a very talented balot dancer, mister Copen, Yes, and Timmy's in the front row, and I thought that was a very big reminder that it's like ballets in your face, buddy.
And I loved seeing the Bridesmaid's cast get back together again and they were so funny when they walked on stage, they were all doing that cheesy pointing into the audience that politicians do. That was a real highlight.
And it wasn't that like a glimpse in a way of what the hosting gig could be. And I think a lot of people don't want that job is the truth. But like those women standing on stage they introduced two awards, they were funnier and fresher and smarter in those moments. The first one was this stick that they were pretending
they had notes from people in the crowd. It was just very funny and they kept being like, you look really beautiful, You've aged well, the things you've done to your face are very tasteful.
Every one of those women is just the funniest personal I know.
Give to that more of that?
Well, Tina and Amy? Do we need to go back to Tina and Amy's true?
If that would be amazing? Who wouldn't want that? Anna wind Tour without her glasses. I had to call Amelia over computer because Anna Wintour and Anne Hathaway presented an award obviously a nod to the whole promotion of Devil Wears prior of too, and Anna was not wearing her sunglasses for the first part of it, and I was thinking, I don't know if I've even seen it.
She looked so uncomfortable.
It was an eyeball reveal and it was quiet.
And then she put them on and then she very hilariously said thank you Emily.
That was great.
That was probably funnier than anything Condan said. I loved Audumn girald Ar Kappor, who was the first woman and first woman of color to win Cinematography. She stood up, she looked so cool. She was wearing a shirt and tie. Holly, what did you say about shirt?
I think that every like civilian who goes to the Oscars, and there are a lot of them because they're riders and their directors and they just don't look like movie stars, should wear a shirt and tie because most women look freaking awesome in a suit, and then you don't have to worry about the fact you've got to stand next to bloody roseburn in Emmstone. She was great, and it was great that she's the first woman to win that, and she thanked all the other women on the circuit.
And it's like, slowly, slowly, So did you see what Chloe Jaw was wearing. She's the director of Hamnet and she wore a full black gothic outfit with like a veil to the ground and all this draping, and like you know, women never used to even get nominated for those awards, and she is absolutely the most talented, smart, interesting woman and listened to lots of interviews with her, and she just turns up like we're wearing this today, and everybody is sure we're wearing that today.
I've got golden in my head at one best song, and I'm not even mad about it, because who doesn't love that song?
I know, I mean, it felt like Sinner's probably should have won that. But at the same time, if you're talking about scale, every five year old in the world sung nothing else for a year.
Apparently the attendee's got wristbands that flash during the performance. I'm just trying to figure out how I can get.
One before they got The ones in the front row have these like wavy things, and there's a very awkward cut to Gwyneth. Gwyneth is a very plastic white sheath and she's like, got her little wavy thing.
Okay, was Gwyneth like talking to John Anniston about what to wear? Because it really was giving Anniston.
Wasn't it and very nineties?
I was going to say that both Gwyneth and Nicole Kidman could have You could tell me they wore those outfits five years.
Ago, that same feather dress before.
And like the Nudi coloris.
Maybe Gwyne was trying to channel CBK because of love Story, But the thing is that famously those two women did not like each other.
Has anyone got anything?
I did enjoy Rachel McAdams looking like a real person even though she was doing the in memoriam and it was actually very sad.
For Diane Keaton.
Yeah, and for Catherine O'Hara, and she did a really good job. But I did You really do notice when somebody looks like a real person, you go, oh, you still have your face.
Rachel McAdams movie star. Yeah, I want to see her all the time.
Yeah, same, more of that.
I have to give a shout out to Jesse Buckley, who won for Hamnet, which we've talked about in the show, a lot, devastating movie based on an incredible book. She wins and she says it's Mother's Day in the UK.
She says, this, it's Mother's Day in the UK today, So I would like to dedicate this to the beautiful chaos of a mother's heart.
I have to say, I know we don't like Ernest, but the beautiful chaos of a mother's Oh, that got me.
Can I have one more earnest moment Joa Kim Trea, who is the director of Sentimental Value, which I only learned about today. He gave this great political statement. He said that all adults are responsible for all children. And I loved that phrase. It's so true, it really is.
So there you go. We've given you the rundown. I have to watch it tonight. If you don't want to, maybe we've spoiled it for you. I don't enough, but hi, bloody love the Oscars. And we'll be back tomorrow with more Red Carpet and they'll probably be gossip, yeah, on Wednesday, because there's always after party gossip. Did Timothy get upset? Did he cry? Did he throw Kylie at someone? I
don't nation needs to know. After the break, you've probably heard a lot of talk about the new Louis Thurux documentary. So we're going to give you a cheat sheet to the manisphere.
At Ladder's Hello it's Me or in Your Ears, and tomorrow's subscriber episode, it's the Oscars Fashion with Me and Envy. We have very different takes on the Red Carpet. We come at it from very different perspectives, and we're going to share all our thoughts with you in your ears because I do subscriber episodes twice a week Tuesdays and Thursdays,
and tomorrow's Tuesday. So if you're not already subscriber, follow the link in the show notes to listen to Out Loud and get Me in your Ears along with the other glorious hosts.
The number one film on Netflix right now is a brand new documentary by Louis Thrue called Inside the Manisphere.
I don't think Evie Magazine would like Louis through. No, they would think he looked a little soft.
Yeah, a little soft, not very mad.
Okay, you need to tell me about this, yes, because I have been too scared to watch it. It sounds scary, it sounds depressing.
And I think you are with a lot of people who are turning away from this because it seems overwhelming. I will say one thing that I particularly loved about it and didn't expect is it's funny. It makes you laugh. Louis, there's such clever devices in finding the humor and the irony in these men. I laughed out loud several times in the first few minutes, so that helps with the existential dread.
And I want you do explain to me what it says about the Manisphere, But then we need to get to the fact that you've told me that the ultimate lessons of it are not what I might expect.
Yes, exactly so. For those who aren't acquainted, Loui has been a journalist and a broadcaster for decades and he does documentaries about extreme subcultures, so from neo Nazis to porn stars to scientologists, serial killers, yep, all of them. Now he's joined his attention to what he says is in some ways a bit of an amalgamation of several of those subcultures, which is the online world of the Manisphere. If there was a King of the Manisphere, it would probably be Andrew Tate.
And yes, he's probably the name that most people would be most familiar with.
Yeah, and the vibe there is very far right politically advocating for traditional values, while also being surrounded by a lot of gyrating naked women, which seems to be at.
Getting arrested quite often sphere people quite often.
All of that, but profiting from women's sex work while outwardly being disgusted by it seems to be a common thing. They're also pretty much always selling something for Andrew Tate.
Its courses are the courses in.
He did one that was in teaching people how to get a girlfriend, then get that girlfriend to be a cam girl, and then take her money from her being a cam girl. Then later yeah, there's a course.
But they also do lots of these guys in general, lots of courses about finance, crypto pt were, lots of training and nutrition and workout stuff, lots of pyramids sounding like investment schemes because it's all about getting rich and ripped and getting the ladies.
Yeah, and then the ideas weirdly tend to enter the realm of blatant anti semitism, homophobia, misogyny, and violence against women. It seems to be a gateway to that. So Louis didn't get access to Tate because Andrew Tate wanted to be paid, and then he ended up sending Louis a graph of how googled he is compared to how googled Louis is and saying haha, see I'm more relevant than you, which it's like, maybe people know who Louis throw is
so they didn't need to google him. But anyway, he did get access defensive much.
I'm not getting arrested in Romania.
I know he's not really in the headlines, but he did get access to twenty four year old Harris and Sullivan known as HS Tiki Talkie.
He's so young, he's English.
It's just I hadn't heard of him, and I liked it that way. His whole philosophy is broadly, I coach boys how to be fucking boys, not these soy boy gimps who walk around in the modern day.
Famously unsuccessful, really unsuccessful.
With him, particularly the kind of women, particularly put.
Onto high value.
Charlamagne, Neaver gets those women.
Throw also meets Justin Waller, whose marriage is one of one way non monogamy.
You can guess which way, meet his wife.
Yes, he meet his wife and his children to a point.
Yeah, as well as American streamers Myron Gaines and Sneako. And the most powerful parts of those interactions are the moments he spends with the women in their lives. I think, but.
Why do the women stay with these men?
Well, good question, Louis asked them. And what's interesting is how quickly the men, very slowly back down from all their proclamations as soon as the woman is next to them, and in every instance the man then tries there's a whole blow up because the man then tries to get the woman to stop being on camera and stop talking because they can tell that it's.
Because it's all basically kind of like a show that they're putting on to make money exactly.
Louis since has done several interviews, and his takeaway is very interesting and matches my own, which is that despite how sickening these views are and how shocking these men are, there are a few tiny little snippets of hope to be taken from the documentary. Holly, you watched the documentary with Brent, I did? What did you take away from it?
Well, one of the things very early on, because obviously I know about this world because of my job and I live on the internet stuff. Brent doesn't really know about this world, you know, he's a gen X man who doesn't really have I'm always trying to because we have a teenage son. I'm always trying to be like, you need to get across it. And his view, like Amelia's, is yuck, no.
Thanks, leave me alone.
But I made him watch it. I sat him down as I were watching it. That's the same thing I did with adolescence. I said, I don't care. I want to hear about it watching it. He made it through one of the adolescence, but he didn't make it through all of Louis. And very quickly he said, and he's just right, they're just salesman.
And then I can go and watch is It Cake together? Brent would love.
Very quickly, he said, they're just salesman, and they it is very apparent, very quickly that they are. So you know, we've already covered the fact that they're all selling something. They're all selling like my Krypto scheme, my investment tips, my workout plan, and they've just mastered the new economy, which is that you use social media for that, you use YouTube for that. You make your content more and more and more outrageous. To gain the algorithm, the content
has to be absolutely shocking. They say the most outrageous things, but few of them seem to actually believe or stand by very much of what they say. They believe when challenged. So it's a difficult watch because you have to listen to this awfulness. And there is a point in it where it does take this dark turn where Louie's out with them on a night where Tiki Toki or whatever we're supposed to call him, basically sets his goons on young men who they've lured to spots with a gay
dating app, and they're like, we're catching pedophiles. Like it gets really grim. There's a so caught on camera when it spirals into anti semitism and stuff, there is no question it gets very scary. But the guys themselves are not scary. They are like I just found every one of them, and so did. Brent like to be sad and pathetic, but I do want to pick a little bit. I mean, I know that you worship the ground that
Louis throw walks on. You always have. I do question, and I'm saying a bit of this commentary whether his documentary style, which has always been I stand back, I record. I'm kind of there, and I'm kind of I'm in it, so I am the content, but I'm a bit separate. I'm not here to depend it gone. So it is, and I don't know if it works in this modern world because every single one of these guys uses him
for content. They live stream his interviews, they get their audiences to feed them questions they should ask him, They mock him, they bully him. I mean, that's not you know. I think Louis through can handle that. And towards the end HS Tiki Taki's mother points this out to Louis. She says, you're using my for content.
So you're making money.
Yeah, and you're making money from my son, and so he's going to do the same to you.
Sorry, his mom's involved.
Well, this is one of the things that, obviously as a mum, got me quite upset. He says. Earlier in the piece HS Tiki TALKI that my mom hates all the things I say. She's a feminist and she doesn't like racism and stuff. And then she's in it later on and she's like, no, she doesn't like it, but she still defends him to the hill because he's her boy. At one point Tiki TALKI turns to his mom and says, but mum, you don't Most women aren't like you, mum.
Most women are thick. They're really, really thick. They're not like you. And it's just anyway. But I do think there is a world in which Louis Throu's he's all you know, that wasn't happening when he was embedded with the Westboro Baptist Church, when he was interviewed in Trailing White supremacy in the American South, he wasn't the story in the same way that he is now. He wasn't being exploited about it in the same way as now.
And it's I just think it's changed that game. And I don't know how helpful it is.
I think though, that is the power of documentary and the power of him, and the fact that he has always just given people enough rope and he's not going in and outwardly condemning them or outwardly even you know, being super adversarial. I think that is actually stronger because it allows us to really see what's beneath it.
And when we saw what was.
Beneath it, it wasn't as scary as I think they backed down. Really, I don't know what you mean.
But also his strength used to be that he walks them into a trap where they'll say something outrageous or let an inside thought be an outside thought. But that's what these guys do all day, every day. It's just say awful stuff. Louis doesn't have to tempt them to say anything awful. He doesn't have to trap them. In fact, he has to become complicit. There's a really disturbed One of the most disturbing parts for me is when he goes on the podcast of one of the guys I
think it's Myron Gaines, who's a really disturbing character. One of the things he does on his podcast YouTube stream is he gets women, many of whom are like content creator or only fans content creators, to come on the podcast and he humiliates them. So he'll ask them general knowledge questions that he knows they're not going to be the answer to, and then he'll mock them, talk about their body count, just be generally gross and spread lots of misinformation, and Louis has to be on that show
and he can't really. I just I don't know.
It's not just platforming, it's kind of like spurring them on, like giving them content. Is that the critique?
I just found that very I felt like he was I don't want to patronize through he's, you know, master of his art, but I think these guys are playing a different game to him.
But I think that he is a great lens to see that because I think that the game they're playing is the Donald Trump game?
Oh very much.
Ask me a question, and what I'll do is I'll bring up your biggest vulnerability and I'll make you feel embarrassed and so on that podcast when Louie's on it, I think him being there was excellent because I didn't know that this is law in the manisphere. I would love to know if you've heard this, Amelia, did you know that? Apparently if you've slept with more people than
your husband, then it's very scientific. But your body hangs on to the genes of the other men you've had heard and so when you have a baby, that's why your baby can look like your ex.
Because your body is hanging onto the genetic material. That sounds legit.
Yeah, And.
Yet it's the women on this show who are dumb according to him. According to Marine Gaines, he's like, these women don't know what the capital of Bulgaria is and yet over here we've got to the DNA of every man we've anyway.
But Louis's reaction to that is because Louis laughs out loud and he says, this is the misinformation, like this is hell, but is that good?
Like now that we're talking about this because he drew our attention to it. I don't know if that's like good.
I think being able to laugh about it puts it in a different context to how.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I as I say. In some ways, I found this much less scary than I thought, because they do all appear to be just fasarts, you know, just just empty salesmen, like the equivalent of the guy used to come and try and sell you a used car or whatever. And they don't care at all about the ideology. None of these guys seem to care even a little bit about the ideology they're peddling. But the problem is their followers probably do buy into it. And
that was confronting. But then the other thing was is I was telling Amelia about it this morning, and I was saying, all these guys are all so unseerious. They can't stand by a single thing they said At the NDHS. Tickie Talkie is saying, yeah, I said, I hate Jews, but I don't, like, I'm not anti Semitic. I just say that, and I say I hate gay people, but hey, that guy over there, he's gazed. But like, they can't
stand by a single thing they're not serious people. And I said that to Melia and she said.
No, one's serious anymore. And it got me thinking about the fact that I remember when in the early days of Twitter everyone had in their bios rts do not equal endorsements. Retweets do not equal endorsements. The idea was that if you posted something that someone else said posted, you weren't saying you agreed with it. You just thought it was important to get that idea into the circulation. For whatever reason. It was newsworthy, it was provocative, it
was interesting. But I think the issue now is that we are being led and influenced and governed by people who don't believe what they're peddling and are just saying it to get attention. But the line between just saying it and living it has gotten completely blurred.
Agree. Agree, And that's exactly what Louis has said in interviews since that that line is really really unclear, and that these ideas have been around. You could recite what these men say. It's been around for decades and decades, but they were in like pick up artist books where maybe some ice man and all that. Yes, however, many
people would read them. The problem now is that the more radical you are, and the more extreme you are, and the more offensive you are, the more attention, the more attention you get.
And it doesn't really matter in a way if you don't believe theti Semitic bullshit you're spouting, if it's all out there and getting shared and disseminated.
Exactly, and so basically Lewis's point that he said in these interviews is that it's really a question of policy and of algorithms, which is interesting because Australia is trying to do that and I kind of think, I don't know if it's working.
I bet a lot of people who are listening to this are like, I've got a son, Should I watch it? Should I watch it with them?
Whatever?
I have a son who's in this bull's eye. All the people who came up to these guys, by the way, because they're quite big celebrities in their world, were young, mostly young. Lots of young boys and some young men really like young, like twelve like young come up and they all want their picture taker work them, and they all want them to do various in cell signs and stuff.
There's no forty year old men who are like, hey, just tiktoki, here's my son like that.
But it did give me some good jumping off points for conversations with my son about it, and one of them was very much about, how have you noticed that all these guys are in order to inflate because they're basically praying on young men who feel like they've got no economic future in various ways. Is there anyone who's telling you they can blow you up by putting other people down? That should always be a red flag. But I think that if you're not familiar with this world,
it is a really informative watch. If you've got kids who are swimming in this world, or indeed, if you want to understand what Tyson on Maps is consuming in his spare time. I think he's probably got some money invested in hs tiki Talki's.
Financial, definitely, definitely, And he I think is a testament to the fact that people really do recite these views. Yeah, he's actually a little bit old for the demo, The Bloody Tyson, I do reckon. What Louie was very good at exposing was that at the underbelly of all of this is selling stuff to teenagers. And so you say, Holly that your flag is for your son is going to be If they're trying to put other people down. My flag, yeah, my flag is always are they selling
you something? If someone's telling you a really extreme thing and then they're saying and subscribe to my finance app or by my course, then don't freaking well it like, I don't believe what they're saying. They're just trying to sell you shit.
I know. But everyone on the internet is trying to sell you. Actually, oh god.
It's really anyway. The internet is the problem anyway.
Claire's right, there are some lolls. So if you're not worried about the end of the world, just laugh at these silly men. Silly silly little men.
After the break, do you have a reply only friend? Or are you a reply only friend? The comedian Tig Nataro was on the Best People podcast recently. This is hosted by a news anchor called Nicole Wallace, and she said something about friendship which really struck a chord on the Internet. She was talking about her friendship with Cheryl Hines, who was an actor who was in Cobe Your Enthusiasm. She played Larry David's wife and then ex wife. She happens to be married to RFK Junior, who is a
Trump administration official. But this is not going to be a discussion about politics. The nature of Cheryl and Tig's fallout they were very good friends, they are no longer was political. But what Tiggs said on this podcast about how they fell out, I think will resonate with a lot of people. It certainly resonated with me. The Internet is now calling the people that Tig describes in this video reply only friends, and you'll see why. Let's take a listen.
And she would respond very pleasantly, thanks lady, Oh this means so much, and I love you and miss you and all of that. When I realized one day she doesn't ever reach out to me anymore. She's responds to me, but she doesn't reach out to me, and I had to kind of shake myself out of denial that, oh she's she's gone.
So the term that the Internet is using to describe this kind of person, this kind of friend, is a reply only friend. And I got into a really interesting conversation on Reddit about this where people were disagreeing about it. So a lot of people said that reply only friends are just something you've got to deal with. As you get older, like you learn that there are people who are just not going to put in the effort and you just have to decide whether or not you're okay
with that. But then there were other people who were saying that it's wrong to keep scoring this way, that if you want to see someone and spend time with someone, that you should do that friendship is not about tallies. It's not about figuring out who's putting in more work
at any given time. And then there was another really interesting point that I had a thought about in defense of the reply only friend that said that taking that kind of initiative is about executive functioning, and that is something that some people have more of than others, and it's wrong to kind of judge or to think that
that means that someone doesn't want to be friends with you. Claire, do you think that the reply only friend phenomenon is real or justified or do you think that some of these other sort of defenses of the reply only friend do hold water.
I realized when when you sent this that I am a reply only are you?
So?
I am? I am going to defend.
Okay in defensive reply only friends good because I am not so I want to hear the defense.
I want to hear why you don't like them though, too, before we do.
It, because I feel the same way as Tig. I feel like sick of always putting in the effort, and it's hard not to take it personally when they just never meet me and they never take the initiative with me.
I'm trying to get better as I get older, and as I maybe get my priorities right and realize that relationships are the most important thing in life, like all of that stuff, and also as people go through more shit, Like I'm very aware that you can't just be the reply only friend when people are going through hard stuff. You need to be reaching out. But I will say I really agree with the point that I don't think
it's about keeping tallies. I have friendship dynamics where, for better or worse, it is understood that I'm the reply only friend, and I'm the reply only friend, but like, I will show up, so it's like I'll get the invite, but I will show up, And a lot of people don't show up to the invite, so that's quite reliable that I will. I will reply, but.
I'm not going to get into the end less back and forth.
About the thing.
No, and I'm not going to take the initiative of like picking where to have don And this is the other thing, the very intricacies. It's like, so we should pick where we have dinner. I'm bad at that. I will make a horrible, horrible decision. Everybody will have a bad meal, whereas somebody else might enjoy food.
But Claire Devil's advocate, do you not think you could be the one to say, let's have dinner, you pick the restaurant. I'm bad at it.
Yeah.
See, that's really that is really good, And that is what I'm trying to get better at, is the kind of outreach and just letting people know I'm there. But I'm very, very bad at the making plans and the making a call and all of that. But I also loved Tigg says later on, and it is a bit specific to the nature of her friendship. Breakdown a line about people deserving a friend when they least deserve a far.
Oh yeah, I love this. When someone doesn't deserve a friend, that's when they need the friend the most. And I think that's relevant to this conversation because sometimes someone can really be going through something and they just cannot be there for you in the same way they cannot be reaching out to you. And I think that's a really valid point, and it's sort of a caveat to the idea that reply only friends and not worth the effort.
That also goes for maybe times in people's lives where they've made horrible mistakes, where they've behaved badly, where they have said something stupid. And what I found interesting about Tig's particular experience is the difference between when somebody has maybe exposed a character flaw or a difference of opinion,
and when that becomes a fundamental clash of values. And I think that that is kind of underlying the conversation she's having more whereas the reply only friend is a bit more of the surface level, Like the problem is whether there's a fundamental clash of values.
I loved listen on last week's One of Me has Subscribe episodes. Last week, you, Amelia and Me have talked about friendship, including a bit of this conversation, but then about the things you need for friendship, and it was like proximity, live stage.
Something energy with energy.
Yeah, and I love this right. It did also make me wonder listening to that conversation in whether or not we all might have slightly different definitions of friendship and what we want from friendships because and like you, Amelia, my life experiences that I've spent many, many years now in no proximity to some of my favorite people. So I'm very comfortable with not being constantly in contact with people.
Like I. If someone I haven't spoken to for a year messages me and says, let's have a drink, my first thought is not, where.
Have you been?
Like I'm like, oh, that'd be great. Yeah, you know what I mean, Like, I don't. I think there are levels of friendship that this isn't true for, but that in general, constant contact is not my definition of friendship, so I don't think therefore that's why this doesn't like reply only friends don't upset me so much because I'm kind of like, well, who's got time to be messaging every day?
Like that's interesting. It sparked something in me that I have one friend who has that ladder but is not anywhere near where I am living right now. In fact, she's not in Australia, and she texted me this morning, are we still doing Underwire Bras, and if you'd scrolled up in our conversation, we probably spoke two weeks ago
about something completely different. That kind of friendship where you can just go straight in with the random remark is how you keep a friendship alive over many years and a cross big distances.
And you and me I had a really good chat about that, because the problem with the constant contact stuff is that sometimes you've got lots to talk about with somebody you know, so you might be in a period of high engagement, but then you might not. And to me, that doesn't mean that friendship is dying or in danger or anything. It's just a life thing. But the reach out is crucial. And you made the point in that conversation, which I thought is really true, that how are you? Is the worst question?
Oh it's all And.
I know I'm guilty of it often, right because I'll suddenly think I haven't talked to Betty in months and I've got two manch while I'm not doing anything.
It's actually even worse if they're going through something. And if I'm going through something and I get the how.
Are so I'll be like, hey, Betty, how are you? And like what kind of a question is that, And you guys talked about different openers. I think you're right. Like my friendships that have a lot of energy, even if we don't see each other very often, you just can kick off with any message. But my concern with us putting too many rules around how regular contact has to be and all those things is that we're always on the lookout for a slight, you know what I mean.
So somebody reaches out to me and is like, did you see Chalamaig's ridiculous mustache at the oscars? And if I start off with or where have you been?
I haven't heard from you in six months? Then that's not No, that's not nice either. I think it's about calibrating your check ins to a mutually agreed level. So, for instance, if that friend who texted me about the underwire Bras had texted me this morning, how are you?
Yes?
What to respond to this? Yes, but to the end of why Bras, I stopped everything? I texted her like, yeah, we are doing sorry to inform you.
You're giving someone a gift of making a reply quite easy too, write yaues. It's like what are you eating right now? Or like I don't know whatever, like some more good questions.
Yeah, there's another example because on the subscriber that you're talking about, Maya asked me how I have any friends, because I have moved around a lot, and I said, I actually think that I have a lot of friends. And one of my friends lives in California and we don't speak often. I've never lived in California. But I was proud of my check in with her. The other day.
I asked her how many times she'd exercised that week or how many pilates classes she'd taken, because she'd told me in a previous conversation she was feeling a bit down. She wasn't getting to pilates. She wanted to get to Politi's more because it was making her feel better. And she literally wrote back with a number, and then I felt like we had this micro connection for the moment, which I think was really good. One idea that Mia has pioneered is she asks people. She's asked me for
three words. So I went to Washington, DC recently on work and it was obviously, you know, a sort of dramatic experience in a number of ways, and Mia texted me while I was away three words for Washington, and it's really helpful to just be asked to nominate three words when you're having an experience where you are feeling a lot of big feelings and you don't quite know how to put that into words. I think the main tip is like not to say how are you. I
think it's just that is conversation killer. I like also asking someone if they're reading anything good, if they're watching the pit because I'm obsessed.
Yes, yes, But I also think in terms of the reply only friend and what both of you were saying about those kind of I don't know, different more novel conversation starts. I'm good at that, Like I will see a piece of gossip or something going on on TikTok and I'm like, I know who to say this to you, and we'll have a chat about that, and then we may not talk for six months. That's fine. But with a reply only friend, I think friendship, like any relationship,
is based on a dynamic. So I think in some ways I've kind of paired up with friends who were the reach out friend. Yeah, do you know what I mean? And I was wondering, Amelia, because you tell a story on the subs episode that we won't get into because it's so juicy it just needs its space. There about you being very assertive with a friend about a very big life decision. Are you friends with people who are similarly assertive?
Oh, that's interesting, I think so, like if someone was that direct with you, well, maybe that's pretty direct. And I feel like we have sometimes our friendship has gone through a stage of just sending each other articles, and that is a way of communicating because maybe there's too much going on in both of our lives to debrief properly. We don't even really want to get into it. So the sending of articles is a way of being in touch without having to get into it at any given time.
And it's like, here's where I'm at. Ideologically, that's not your thing.
Like I've got friends who we just send pictures like this is what I'm looking at. This is what I mean, glimmers when you're going through a hard time, like this is something will make you laugh, like, but just picture, no pressure to respond. I relate Claire with the fact that because I'm not a very good check in friend, a lot of my friends are good check in friends. And that's probably said, doesn't say anything good about me, but I feel quite smothered if people want things from
me all the time. I'm like, eh, but I.
Do you suggest social plans?
Oh?
Yeah, oh definitely I will. My favorite way to socialize is one on one over a walk, a coffee or drink, right, So I much prefer that then group dinners and lots of things like that. So I will definitely. I did it yesterday. So it was like admin half hour. I had a minute, and there were three of my friends who I haven't seen for ages, because I've got lots of friends who might not see for months, and I'm like, three dates, pick one, three dates.
Pick one.
So I will do that. But you get into a and rhythm with friends, and I think I just don't necessarily think that the judge of a good friend is how regularly you talk to each other.
No, I guess I'd just add that speaking on behalf of the reach out friends to the reply only friends. Just make sure that you let us know that you're thinking of us, even if you don't want to suggest a date right now, or you can't get into this big thing that's happening in your life, or you're not watching the pit I still want to hear from you. That's all.
Yeah, no, that's good to know.
That is all. We've got time for out louders on this Oscar Monday. We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Well, Mia will be back in your ears tomorrow with a full red carpet fashion rundown with the amazing m Vernum. I can't wait to hear that.
That's going to be great.
It is, but we will be back in your ears on Wednesday. Massive thank you to our team for helping us put the show together as always see then.
Bye bye.
Mummyer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.