You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the third of July. I'm Holly Wayne, right, I'm me and Friedman.
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
And we're still arguing about what happened on Monday and Jill Biden and May is still wrong.
And I think you know, we're the only people who care about this as much as we do. Like we're all still rowing about Jill Biden.
On the cover of Vogue. But she carries the weight of not just America above the world.
Let's blame her on her shoulders.
Not blaming, just saying she marries a great responsibility and she needs to tell him to stay.
Can't bear it as if Mea knows what's going on in their kitchen anyway, she needs to hide the show today Pomp Pom's the Pink Economy and high kicks from help why everyone's arguing about Cheerley this this week? Also, here's a world leader allowed to have Friday night off? What about any leader? This is the latest spat in the UK election and a little known underdog called Taylor Swift. It's under attack from a finger wagon columnist and Mia kind of agrees with him. But first, Jesse Stephens.
In case you missed it, there is a fiery debate unfolding about about Jill Biden. No, yes, you can find a way to make this Jill, Butden's fault. But Abby Chatfield, who's a podcast our television host, posted on Instagram this week and she posed an am I the ass whole question? My favorite type of question, which was essentially, am I wrong in thinking people shouldn't beep you when you get in your car and you're not ready to go yet?
I actually think it's so rude. Here's a context. Abby had just finished her yoga class, and after her yoga class, she was feeling a bit dizzy, bit light headed, and she thought, shouldn't drive when I'm feeling dizzy. What I'll do is I'll have something to eat, so I'm a safe driver. So she sat in her driver's seat, she was having something to eat, and someone behind her is going babe, babe, and she was going, I've paid for parking. I've paid for one hour and thirty seven minutes, still
got four minutes left. Go keep going. And she said, it's very rude of you to beep. I want to put this out. Maya is Abby the asshole is the beep of the asshole.
I think Abby could have misinterpreted the beep. I've been in this position a lot, because what I've noticed is that people will get into their cars now and they'll check their phone. So they'll sit there, they'll check their phone for a while, might send a few messages to a bit of scrolling, and when you're looking for a car spot, that's really frustrating and also misleading and a
bit confusing. So what I will sometimes do to get the attention of the driver who is absorbed in their phone or in their noodles, I will lightly go bebep. I'll tap my horn to get their attention, and then I'll say are you going or are you eating or scrolling? No, I'm not going, and I don't give them the middle finger. I then drive away. Am I a bit irritated? Yes? But it wasn't an aggressive beep. It was just like, hey, I need you to answer a question.
If there are any beeps that aren't aggressive except a kidding, except for the beeps that are like watch out, you know what I mean.
No, I don't use my horn ever, I don't even.
Know where it is. You never don't know where my horn half your horn.
I think it's like if you're lights or something and you want to get someone's attention and maybe they are scrolling, which is illegal. Well maybe they're distracted them a little daydream and they didn't see that the lights are changed. What you can do at night, I'll flash my high beans because that's.
Better than beeping.
But you can just give the horn a little tap. It's not aggressive.
I don't mean like a beep.
I just mean what I will say, is it getting into your car use your horn after like you've been shopping or you've been out, and you get back into your car, giving people the benefit of the doubt. Often you've got to get your maps up, you might have a quick work thing, you might have a message all of that to say that people are scrolling. And they might be, but I would rather them get their stuff sorted before they start driving than sort their maps out as they're going through the car.
That parking spot is your parking spot until you vacate it. That's just the truth. That's the rule. This happened to me the other week. It wasn't in a car park. It was on the street and I was about to drive back from Sydney. This is whole thing. You never know someone's life to you. I was about to drive back from Sydney. That's a two hour drive. I got
into my car. I needed to answer a couple of urgent messages before I set off, and then I needed to set, you know, a thing to play while I was going, And I needed to just sort myself out for a minute. Right, woman drives up next to me, bee bee and then going I'm doing their motion that meeah does, And I was like put my hand up, like give me a minute, and she's like woo, like gesturing wildly, really mad with me. Now, no doubt, I
don't know her life. She's in a hurry, she's trying to find a park, maybe she's got a medical appointment, maybe she's got whatever. Right, but guys, we share the street. Just because I'm sitting in my car, it doesn't mean I have any lesser right to be there than you.
I agree that there's an etiquette thing, which is if you see them waiting and I will do this a little gesture which is just like I'm actually going to be five or I'm gonna whatever.
That's courteous. Don't hate that.
Yeah, But I also think that we're taking out the lack of parking in cities on each other.
Yeah.
I just think it is a bit.
Power about when you're in a shopping center the car park and you've got a pram and you get back to the car and someone's waiting for your spot and they're like, are you going, and you're like, yeah, I'm going, but it's going to take you a minute. I get the baby in, strap the baby in, fold down the thing, get all the stuff and the pressure they're waiting, and then people are backing up behind them and they're waiting and it's like, drive on, guys, find another car spot.
Like go around the blociety.
Yes, And then you start making mistakes being watched. So I'm gonna drop the baby and I'm gonna put the pram in the car.
I'm just going to give the beeper the benefit of the doubt and saying that maybe they were just beeping to get her attention to ask her a question. You need to look like a supermodel, but perform like an athlete.
Once that uniform comes on, all of the flaws and the problem go out the door.
Everyone's talking about the biggest show worldwide on Netflix this week, America's Sweethearts Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, and there is a ton to unpack about the show. It's a documentary in case you haven't seen it in many parts that covers the choosing of the twenty twenty three squad for the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, who are the most famous cheerleaders for probably the most famous team in the NFL, which is American Football.
There's a ton to unpack about this show, which we have done on a separate episode for subscribers, everything from the incredibly strict rules that the cheerleaders have to follow. These rules cover everything from morality to the shape of their eyebrows and of course their weight. But today we want to talk about the topic of the pink economy and where the cheerleaders are having a bit of a resurgence worldwide after being a little bit on the nose
over the last ten years or so. The Dallas Cowboys are one of the wealthiest and profitable NFL teams, they're worth around nine billion US dollars. Even though the cheerleaders as a business division within the company make millions of dollars through the sales of calendars and sponsorships, they personally only make for their season between about fifteen thousand twenty two thousand dollars, and that breaks down as about twelve dollars per hour they're paid, and about four hundred dollars
on game days, which can last around eighteen hours. Obviously, their work is incredibly grueling. They have to do a lot of stuff like faetan and hair and makeup and all of that stuff that they have to do themselves. In comparison, a Dallas Cowboys mascot earns around sixty five thousand dollars. An NFL water boy, the guy who runs on the field with water fifty three thousand dollars he earns for the season. Now, they've been lawsuits in America.
There was one from Buffalo Bill's cheerleader who claimed that she got just one hundred and five dollars for an entire season after she had all of her costs taken into account, including having to pay more than six hundred dollars for her own uniform. By twenty twenty, ten of the NFL's thirty two teams had been sued for wage theft and harassment and unsafe working conditions and discrimination, all different things. It got us wondering about what the situation
with cheerleaders was here in Australia. Our daily news podcast The Quickie did a deep dive on cheerleaders in the NRL in Australia. Here's a little bit of that episode.
When you finally were getting paid, Were you getting paid enough?
Well?
No, upon reflection, it was like fifty dollars a game that would get paid.
So you're not doing it for the money, You're doing it for the love and you're obviously working another job on the side. I had a full time role and I would you know, at the end of the day, get into the bathroom, jazz up, drive off to the cheerleading gig and get that done as well. So, yeah, you're juggling the life.
Did you feel pressure, even if it wasn't implicitly implied. Did you feel pressured to maintain a certain weight whilst you were performing as a cheerleader?
Yeah? Absolutely, I mean that is very standard in the dance industry generally, it's something we're always dealing with. I've had other contracts where we've been weighed weekly. We weren't specifically with the cheer squad weight or anything like that, but it is very much an unspoken rule that yet you have to maintain the same weight as you were hired Jesse, do you.
Think we should implement way ins here? Nonma me are out that well.
I think what you really should be asking is, if you guys love this job so much, then why are we paying you?
Because a lot of people would like to host this show.
Exactly, And I thought you did it for the love. And if you did it for the love, everyone knows you can't also be paid.
Makes it out loud as happy? Isn't that what you do?
Yeah? Exactly right, and we know if you're not doing it, I've got five hundred other girls, yeah, with false eyelashes and big hair that are very happy to take your spot. We were talking in the subscriber episode and when he sat down it was meant to be a short episode and I had forty minutes.
We thought we'd probably overdone.
It and was like, I'm turning the microphone.
And it still wasn't enough. So we're like let's talk about it on the main show.
When we talked about it there, we were saying, I can't imagine a male comparison, Like the football players also love it and also love the camaraderie, but they also are decently paid. And one thing that I've learned from this show as well as cheer is the incredible athleticism of these dancers, of these cheerleaders. And I was thinking about how culturally, probably from Bring It On, remember the
movie Bring It On. Yeah, it's like we have been trying to relaunch or rebrand or rehabilitate the cheerleading image because certainly in the nineties, after a few waves of feminism, it was seen as a bit on the nose and potentially objectifying. I was a kid who went to a lot of NRL games and you would see the cheerleaders and you would hear the way that the men talked about them, and I didn't feel that it was aspirational at that time, because I thought I would never want men to talk about me.
Bed cheerleader when I was a kid, really desperately. I remember in two thousand and seven, You're right, that's kind of when it started to be a little bit on the nose and Russell Crowe, who owns the South Sydney Rabbito's club, he got rid of cheerleaders for them because he said it made male fans feel uncomfortable, which I don't know if that's true. And he said our focus, I know exactly what he's saying, re established rugby league
and women. So he was saying that the cheerleaders would sexualize the atmosphere and they were trying to make it more of a family game. So he briefly replaced them with a group of drummers male and female, so there was like halftime entertainment that only lasted a couple of years. They went very popular and now they just have music and videos on the big screen.
As to quite a lot of teams in the NRL. So the reason in Australia we'd be talking about the NRL is the AFL do not have cheerleaders. They did once upon a time there was something called the Swantt's and Sydney Swans in fact, but they haven't done for ages and ages, whereas these days some NRL teams do
and some NRL teams don't. More than half do. Still though, it's interesting because the two dancers who were interviewed on the Quickie were both NURL cheerleaders, and they were talking as they said about how the reasons why they did it, because as they spelled it out, it wasn't money, that's for sure, because they're saying that what your job entails is at least two rehearsals a week, meeting greets before and after the game, staying on the field to watch
the entire game always, obviously, and all that breaks down to an HOURI rate of about five dollars an hour. So you're not doing it for the money. So they said why do they do it? They said they loved dancing, love performing, love rugby league, wanted to be part of
the club and participate. Now, the thing that I find really hard to unpick in all this because watching the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders show, and we said this on the show yesterday, there is no doubt I got to the end of that series and had nothing but admiration for these dancers. I really did. They were all amazing women, They all had other jobs, are doing amazing things. Their work ethic was unquestionable. They behaved towards each other in
a really beautiful sisterly way. There was no I didn't have any criticism of them. I find it interesting that when I was consuming this documentary in an obsessive fashion over the past week or so, whenever my teenage daughter would walk in the room, I would turn it off
because I didn't really want her to see it. Why, you know what I mean, Like if I question myself, and one of the things is is that my daughter, who's fourteen, loves sport, and she's a mad AFL player, and so every Sunday and actually four times a week at the moment, she is out on a field running around in short shorts and a tight top, but running around getting muddy, getting dirty, getting sweaty, playing the actual game.
I respect dancers enormously, and I respect the entertainment factor, but I think it's very hard to unpick in a code like NRL in particular, that has a lot of issues. Let's be honest with attitudes towards women that they've been trying to undo with various levels of commitment and success for decades, that the involvement of women they want is that kind a decorative, ornamental role that is their scifically to applaud when the men on the field do something
good rather than doing the thing themselves. And what's interesting is the world is shifting that way. Last week it was the NRL Women's State of Origin Final. It was sold out in a massive stadium. They had two million people watching it on television. That is unprecedented. That is changed. That is happening at an amazing rate. It was a
great game. My daughter watched that and oh my god, was she in All of those women who were smashing into each other on the field, thrown them on the floor, highly competitive competing for a cup.
I'm in awe of the athleticism of the dancers too. And I know it is saying holly because even in the documentary, you watch it and you see that. So Dallas cowboys at this incredibly powerful, wealthy institution. If you want to be part of it, your options are cheerleader or biologically related to men who runs.
It, maybe working behind the scenes. I'm sure they've got a lot of women in the offices.
Most of the women that we saw were kind of the your leader. And it is a powerful institution, right, So it's very.
Much the ultimate patriarchal structure. Whereas the men are doing the things, and the women are literally supporting them and cheering them.
Who are we blaming here?
And I think about my self and my own naivety and being probably quite judgmental years and years ago, where I would look at the cheerleaders and what they were wearing or whatever and would probably denigrate a little bit them. That's internalized misogyny, and that's almost victim blaming because it's like, if you are a dancer, and dancers are some of the most athletic, hard working, impressive athletes, I know, poorly.
Paid as well, Yes, what are your options?
And if you love dancing, if you love dancing and you're really really good at.
To dance at home, yeah, I guess like.
Yeah, I totally understand why that would be what you do, and we all routinely undermine it, just like we do anything.
I think so because part of what you need to do in that context is the sexy aspect. So you can't pretend that that's not part of it. They're not out there in comfortable clothes and shoes. It's sexualized. And the dancers themselves say, oh, because we've got to move this certain way, which is like hips. First, we're all throwing our backs out, we've got you know, broken hips, we're damaging our bodies because it's quite sexualized. That is
very different to just say ballet. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but when you say, oh, why does it make us feel a bit as women? I think it's that part.
I reckon that this could be a cultural reckoning where we're pivoting and going hang on. I was even thinking with cheer, and even with this, I was.
Like, there should be an Olympics. I would watch this.
Like cheer should definitely be in the Olympics. But if you haven't watched it, and maybe you've watched cheer, cheer is different. So that is literally about gymnastics. It's about doing links and pyramids and all that kind of stuff. In cheer, they're not cheering, they're anyone on the sideline of a game. They're the main event. And it's also you know, men and women. But for this it's literally
on the side of the event. As Holly said, it's either halftime entertainment or when the men do something on the field, the women do little dancers on the side. And it's also being ambassadors because they also go out into the community, and they make calendars and they sign and they go visit people in nursing homes and kindergartens and they bring some of that glamour. So they're part of the branding, but it's like the sex cells.
Part of the back. I think the reason I feel uncomfortable because I've said before, when the NRL was having this big reckoning and trying to figure out how to get more women at games and make them feel more comfortable, that's when a lot of teams started letting their cheerleaders go.
And I remember writing some stories around that and getting pushback from women who worked in that field and being like, you make it sound like I am a stripper, and they say, no disrespect to dancers who are working in adult clubs, but that is not what I do, and you're making it sound like I am. And this is
a highly skilled thing and all that stuff. I totally take all that on board, and as I said, watching these women have nothing but admiration, I think the problem is it feels like a throwback to a time when that was the only way women could get status in that world, right, and in the world full style, yes,
but specifically in male dominated environments. Like that is that you think about the cheerleader, Think about every high school movie you've ever seen, any story you've ever read about that world, particularly in America, and it is an imported American thing here in Australia. The cheerleaders are the popular, the girls, the beautiful girls, the girls who date the quarterback, the girls everybody's like either wants to be or is
frightened off right. And so when I look at these women and you think, oh, you get to play in that world, but only in that role, it sort of throws me back to that idea. Whereas actually, now, as I was just saying about the Women's NRL, there are lots of different ways that women can be involved in sport now and they are literally breaking down doors. So
I can appreciate what the cheerleaders do. But I think probably the reason why I close my computer when my door to watch in the room is I'm like, I don't want her to think that that is the only way for a woman to be involved in something she loves, which is that sporting football world.
Well, for those women though, the football world wasn't what they loved. The dancing was what they loved.
Yeah, but a lot of these women would say that that's why they chose cheerleading. Is they loved dancing and they wanted to be part of the team.
Yes, but I wonder to use that.
They can't have any contact with the football players. Why do you think that is? It's never explained. And I thought the voices of the Dallas Cowboys was really missing from this documentary to have not one of them. I want to know what the footballers think of them.
I was reading about how they're not allowed to fratnize and even in some cases they're not allowed to follow any of them on Instagram, Like there's not allowed to be any interest in the.
Two travel together.
I think I don't know why.
Well, if something does happen, the cheerleader, unsurprisingly is let go. Yeah, and the football player keepsy starts.
To protect the women.
That's the man's reputation.
Yeah, the men's reputation, it's been psarciastic.
It's not to protect the women's well.
And the idea is too that those women are held up as a male fantasy, and in order to be a male fantasy, they have to take off their wedding rings. They are not allowed to touch their boyfriends. Anywhere around the stadium. They are to be looked at but not touched.
That the idea is that they are It's like the Madonna hare complex that we were talking about, where it's these women are just elevated and it almost would like plummet their status if they were touched by someone like it's incredibly regretful.
They'd make them dirty slots if they had had sex or were in any way, even though they portray themselves sexually. And that's the point. They're both Madonna and whare in this analogy. Wow.
But I also think that no fraternization policies are relatively new, and I think that's because of that whole cheerleader quarterback stereotype I was talking about before, and that part of the denigration of cheerleaders is there are only to snare themselves a footballer who are the ultimate high status alpha males. Right, So they're trying to unpick some of all the mess
that can then follow that situation. And if you imagine that the cheerleaders and the footballers are out drinking together after games and all, like, you can only imagine so is pr management as.
Well sexual purity? Yes, And also they've got these morality codes, don't they Yes?
And also I guess there's a power and balance. There's a workplace power and balance, which is that from payment to where you stand in the hierarchy, Like, yeah, women can be exploited.
But don't matter.
There are a lot of rules.
That I was going through, so I found this one interesting. You're not allowed to wear glitter eyeshadow. It must be matt so they don't like glitter. No visible tattoos.
You did notice that none of them had tattoos, which is unusual for a group of women that age.
No going out in jeans or sweatpants, so they have to be seen glammed up, even if you're going to the local shops in Texas, like you've got to be you are a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader always. I find full hair and makeup to train every day completely unnecessary.
And there was a scene in this There was a scene in the show where one of the women doesn't wear makeup to training and she gets a big telling off and it was like, you haven't made an effort. It's like you don't care if you just rolled out of bed, like what would And they know use the name of some iconic too. Well would they think of this today? And she was like, oh, I'm just told.
You can't be anywhere where alcohol is served.
But isn't that a football game?
Well, you're I'm allowed to be near the bar, you know, allowed to go to parties on the weekend because of the your proximity to alcohol. And you're allowed to eat after six pm. That's sorry, You're allowed to eat after six pm, says it in the rule book.
Well, I was on my way to try out for next year the tattoo rule. That's going to just qualify and they like to eat.
My dinner at seven.
I just hope that the Netflix success. If there is one message that viewers ascending the world, it is that cheer. Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders are the main event, like they are what everyone wants to watch. I don't give a shit about American football. I could watch those cheerleaders cheer all day long.
The footballer should be on the sidelines cheering.
Fungerstruck out louders on behalf of Mummy are out loud.
I want to apologize. I want to apologize.
Because if you heard any strange jingle in that segment, this is funny because we're recording it in post and it just makes me giggle. That's because me is wearing shoe jewelry, which, if you're wondering, isn't a thing. It's not a thing around my shoe.
But I didn't realize that it was going to be an.
Audio, So if you hear some jingle jangle, that would be MEA's shoe jewelry in the background.
Sorry about that distraction.
Sorry.
This month, Mumma Mia turned seventeen. We know birthdays aren't all that exciting when they're not well your birthday presents, so we want to take this as a chance to give you a treat and say thank you for being on the ride with us.
Right now, you can get twenty dollars off a yearly Muma MEA subscription with the code out Loud Birthday.
The offer is valid for limited time only, and you'll find all the details of how to do that in the show notes. Enjoy My Friends.
A man named kir Starmer, a labor politician who wants to invest in the NHS, improved state schools, clamp down on companies at harm the environment, and increase the minimum wage, will likely by the end of this week be the new Prime Minister of Britain. He is sixty one years old. He's got two kids, a sixteen and a thirteen year old, and this will become relevant. His wife is Jewish. I mentioned that she's Jewish because on Friday nights the family
observe traditional Shabbat dinners. Maya Chabbat means shabbat. I can't say it.
You've been going to them for a while.
I know, I'm waiting to the bat of it all. Yeah, but it's shabba.
But but shabat cha butt schabat and it means rest.
I don't like, not literally, It's like.
You know how the Christians have the day of rest is Sunday. The Jews go from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. That's when you meant to rest. The Jews rest on Saturday, right, Okay, So and Friday night usually it's like a time when you have a family meal. So the family just comes together and you have a meal as a tradition. You have certain bread, you have wine, you do a couple of blessings. Some people, you know,
depending on how religious they are, do more. But generally it's like an informal way for the family to get together every Friday.
It's family time and it's switch off.
Yeah.
Stama told Virgin Radio that they have a strategy in place, which is to carve out protected time for the kids. So after six o'clock on a Friday night, he will not do work related things.
He said.
There are, of course a few exceptions, but broadly that's what they do. His political opponents, as well as many opinion columnists, got very angry. One conservative politician tweeted, what if putin attacks at six oh one pm, while others mocked that there would be global conflict unfolding and Starmer would be busy trying to finish his book. Grant Feller wrote for The Independent that he doesn't believe family should always come first and that he envies Starma's childlike naivete
in his endearing devotion to family. He writes, it's unrealistic to think that you can suddenly shift between being a good employer and a good parent at six pm. What a ridiculous metaphor switching off is. If you've got a stressful job and you love it, there is no switch. There is no off.
Holly.
You'd think Starmer had declared that he was adopting the four hour work week, everyone responded, rather than saying that one day out of every seven he will look in the direction of his children when the sun goes down.
Exactly what is this all?
I think it's really interesting because there is a definite little undercurrent there possibly not so little that could be decided of anti Semitism. There definitely is. But even if you take that out and set it aside, there is a massive overreach here from the Tories who are going to lose this election in spectacular fashion. And maybe I will be eating my words on Friday night, but I doubt it to find anything they can throw at Kirstarmer.
And to be clear, Kir Starmer is not actually desperately popular like everybody's like yay Kiir Starmer, we love him. They're just like, get those people out of office. They have made a right mess over the fourteen years they've been in charge, so they are showing their desperation. I think in this so as you've said, Jesse, people are like, what if putin attacks at six oh one people are tweeting back who work for Keir Starmer, then he will pick up his phone.
Jump on line, jump on line.
I think put his book down exactly. No one is saying and not what is not being said here. And this is the thing that's really interesting is I think it shows a clash of culture. And I don't mean
about the religious aspect. I mean about the work at all costs culture and any attempt at having balance, which in the hustle culture is a dirty word that is vastly out of touch, because most people these days understand that probably to be a good leader, a good boss, do a good job, maybe you need to have a little bit of something else in your life, and that asking for a few hours when you don't need to be on on is not an unreasonable thing or is it mere Friedman?
No, I think that's true. I think that ironically, when Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister, one of the criticisms of him by people who worked for him was that he only slept for like four hours a night and the rest of the time he was working. And to some people that played and to him, because he let that be known, that played as dedication, work ethic, high performance behavior, whereas to others, those who are criticizing it, it was portrayed as you don't have any perspective, like when you
don't look around. People often say this of artists, and we'll get to tell us swift shortly. But when you're an artist, you have to live in the world to be able to make art. Or if you're an actor, if you're just a famous person, then it's very hard to play different characters because you're not exposed to them anymore.
So I think that for being a political leader, presumably you need to understand what actual, real people who don't live in your bubble think about things. So that's also a reason why they need to live in the world.
A little more, right, Oh, one hundred percent. And I'm saying that this is an argument for living in the world. Yeah, and for switching off. It's true, no one really switches off like we're always at the end of a phone, aren't we. I don't think this means. I mean, in some strict orthodox households, it's literally phones off. They don't
use technology for twenty four hours. No one suggesting that that's what happens in his household, or that he's going to do that, that he's going to be uncontactable after six o'clock on a Friday. But I think that idea of as you said so beautifully, Jesse, I'm going to face my attention towards my family or if you don't have a family, towards my dog, towards my parents, towards
my friends, towards my health. Yeah, whatever it happens to be, I'm going to look away from my work and that will actually make me better at my work when I come back.
The book thing's funny because I don't know if the person who said, you know, will I look up from his book to solve a global conflict has ever spent time with a family at six pm on a Friday. But you would be more likely to be reading a book skydiving than you would sitting around having family time. There's a real sense that it's lazy, and not that it's a different type of work or that it's an investment that, as you say, makes you better at your job.
In this article I read in The Guardian, it was saying that from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown, the toll that their leadership took on them, from mood to health to how they look was enormous. And then when you look at the best leaders, they all had something and mostly like they prioritized family. Winston Churchhill famously painted like they had to have something because otherwise you become so burnt out and tired that you're not able to function at your job.
Isn't it interesting though, and I did this too, that all of us have defended the switch off time as something that will make you better at your job time, Like no one is saying and just it might make you happier and you might be a better person. We are all so deeply marinated in productivity culture that it's like, well, we have to find a justification for why having a few hours where I don't check emails might make me better at work. Well.
Benji Marshall, who is the West Tigers NRL coach at the moment, he's a former player. He has spoken about this in recent months and got so much shit from the NRL community.
He's quite a new coach, isn't he.
Yeah. Yeah, he's just started this year and in the lead up to his debut he said, I'm not going to be a twenty four to seven coach and I put my family before my job, which is something that players coaches you never ever say that.
Here's a little bit of what he said I'll.
Come into work early before the players, work as hard as we can until we get what we need done. Then we go home because I prioritize my family between five and eight pm every night to find a work life balance. That doesn't mean I don't care about my job or care about working hard.
I think that's an outstanding way to model what it means to be man, what it means to be person.
So there was all this crap and coaches. There's you know, this ideal of a coach who tries to go to the movies but he's actually just plotting what they're going to do on the field.
And blah blah blah.
And remember it was only less than two years ago Paul Green, who was a Queensland coach, a NRL coach, took his own life. I think he was about forty nine, and there was this big discussion about mental health and how to look after each other. And we have Benji Marshall coming out who has two little kids as well, so he's at a very specific moment in his life and he's saying, between five and eight, I'm going to be with my kids. That to buy one week. So they had a game off and he went to Fiji
with his family. That was just laughed at, like, oh, you're going on a holiday now, and he's saying nah, Like I actually believe in work life balance. It's something that I want to model. And I have a team around me of people that I trust, so when I'm not there, the work can get done.
See that's saw so key to this, right if you're looking at it from a leadership level. When he says that, he says, I've got really experienced guys on my staff. I've got all these people I trust, and I'm going to empower them to do their job. I don't need to be there and across absolutely everything all the time. That is really generous to the other people you work with. But it's interesting because he also said that he knew that the culture was and this certainly is not only
in sport. It had always been a good leader as someone who says, you can't outwork me, I will work harder than everyone here. I will be the first one in and the last one out. I'll turn the lights on and I'll turn the lights off. And that was the model. And I think it's really interesting that we're now seeing different models of success that don't look like that. And the idea that saying that for three hours a day between five and eight you don't want to be
working is outrageous. It just seems crazy.
I think it can be tricky as a boss or a manager or a leader, because I've felt the pressure in both ways. I've felt the pressure to work more and I've felt the pressure to work less. So I do feel that I have to role model that I'm the co founder and co owner of this business.
Yeah, I will.
Work down hard, and I will work harder than anyone else because I expect everybody to work hard, so that includes myself.
But what's working hard mean is being offline between five and eight? Not working hard? I'm in the specifics of like what if the queen dies? I don't mean that, I mean in general.
Yeah, I know. So there have been times when I've thought I was really conscious of what time I would get into the office and what time I would leave. But then you read about how bosses need to model boundaries, and so there was all this talk a few years ago about how bosses had to leave noisily because some people, and I know when I've worked in jobs before, you
don't want to leave before the boss right. Certainly when I had little kids, it felt like the walk of shame, like you don't want to sort of sneak out, and everyone's going, oh, she's not very committed. And in fact, when I did work in a male dominated industry and commercial television, I did had to have to leave to go home and breastfeed my baby, and I would of course jump online straight away, but after I left, it was, you know, leaked to the media. Oh she wasn't very committed.
She wouldn't put in the hours. So it's really hard and I feel pressure both ways. I feel pressure not to work on weekends now a lot, because I don't expect other people to, but for me sometimes that's the only time I've got to do my work.
It's tricky, I reckon. I also was definitely always get there, really leave late person, no question. For many, many, many years it was important because those either ends of the day were sometimes times you could get things done because everybody else wasn't there wanting your attention, asking you questions, meetings, meetings I need to talk to you about blah. These
hours were precious. The thing is is all that stuff has really been thrown in the air with the fact that we can work anywhere now, which is a really good thing, right, Like it's life changing that you could leave and be home to have dinner with your kids, but then do your emails after a eight Like that
is actually life changing. And I remember work and mia would two when that was not possible, Like when you went home, you work couldn't work anymore, so you would stay in the office until I had plenty of years of work when I would be in the office at eight nine o'clock regularly.
I used to sleep on the couch often.
Office was the only place to work. And so now obviously you can work everywhere. That's a really good thing. But then the flip side of it is it's a bad thing because now if you say, well, I just went between five and eight to not be responsive, And the problem is is everybody's got different schedules. So if you want between five and eight, but your boss actually wants to message you at that time, then you're in
a real push Paul. So I don't know, I find it hard, but I love all these different models coming up with different ways of caring about your job.
And I love that it's men as well women. Have been talking about this for a long time, and men talking about it is very refreshing.
Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week, and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.
In Taylor Swift News, Taylor Swift.
Taylor, Taylor Taylor.
I've been watching the Taylor Swift cutaways.
I was very excited to hear what me had thought about Taylor Swift.
Taylor bloody Swift.
I disclaim her. On Monday, I told me she wasn't allowed to bring this story, wasn't allowed to talk about it because out numbered.
How tried?
You did?
You did?
It's about a column published in Newsweek, which is a credible American news publication. Stupid cont such stupid coln. The column was written by a writer called John mccillan. It won't surprise anybody to know that he's a conservative commentator, and in it he claimed that Taylor Swift, the trademark queen of the World, is a bad role model for young women because she is unmarried and does not have children. Not to mention, mcgillan writes that she has had at
least a dozen a dozen relationships with men. He wrote, this revolving door of relationships may reflect the normal dating experiences of many young women in today's world, but it also raises questions about stability, commitment, and even love itself. Should we encourage young girls to see the Swift standard as the norm and something to aspire to, or should we be promoting something a little more, shall we say, wholesome?
Would any loving parent reading this want their daughter to date twelve different men in the span of a few years. This is not an attack on Swift. It's a valid question that is worth asking.
It is, though, an.
Attack ont Mia said. Mia said, we have to take this dude down. I said, calm down, Maya. Taylor's doing great, she doesn't need us. Let's argue about Jill Biden instead. And then well, it just kept escalating, and out loud has started asking us why Maya is leaving the gates
of Taylor's virtue undefended. And we had to relent. And then something surprising happened, because when we were talking about it today Mia discovered she does have one thing in common with McGill, and she really really wants Taylor to get married and have a baby.
Mia, explain yourself, Well, this was my favorite hate read of the week. It's the gift that keeps on giving because his main criticism of her as a role model, and in the first few paragraphs he details all her achievements and basically says, she's an extraordinary businesswoman. She's the most famous woman in the world. She'sn't powerhouse, except she's not married with kids, therefore not a good role model for our sisters and our daughters. And I thought, look,
I do want Taylor Swift to have a baby. Because I hate myself for thinking this. I just want her to experience what it's like, and I think she'd be a great mother.
Oh my goodness, most I think not having a bad.
I don't give a shit that she's married or not. Do I think being married and having a baby has anything to do with her being a role model. No, this is about my love for Taylor and my desire for her to experience the full spectrum a little bit like we spoke about before.
Of life.
She'll write some no one experience is the full spectrum of life. I want to read because you miss out on things kids, you miss out on certain experiences, and everyone has a different set of incredible mind.
People listening I know who are going to say, you're suggesting that because I don't have kids, I haven't experienced the full spectrum. I would say that I haven't experienced the full spectrum. I've never been with a woman, I've never lived in a different country for a long period of time. There's lots of the full spectrum. I also have an experience.
I've played a stadium with that many people.
I haven't played stadium.
I can't speak another ones exactly, I can't tap dance.
There's many aspects. I haven't run onto a field to the streams of thunderstruck. There's so many. Yet, there's so many things that I haven't experienced. But I just think Taylor is a seeker of experience, and I love the things she writes about those experiences, and I genuinely I want to hear. What Taylor's done for me and many other people is She's helped me make sense of experiences in my life through her music and through her lyrics.
That's why I.
Would like to hear her views.
If only you could hear someone else's views about motherhood, of which there are many books, many songs, many poems, many instagram that he could go to to dive deeper into the experience of the motherhood. I think we've lost sight of what a role model means, and I think we know what it means anymore when someone is a role model.
Oh, I'm not arguing that she's not a role model.
My god, this is yeah.
It's like, since when does someone who you look up to you use them as sort of a Barbie doll to enact the exact life choices you would make.
I was thinking about, Yes, that's why Mea wants her to have a baby.
It was very threatening. This guy's clearly very threatened because all the things he lists, all the criticisms of Taylor, when he keeps saying, but they're not criticisms, but they are because you're calling her a dirty slight, a baron whore.
Yeah, like here, and then.
He's like, no criticism of Taylor, Huh, they're all about his greatest fears as the upholder of the patriarchy. Like it's wild. Because he writes this, it was hard to find my favorite parts. But he says that her numerous high profile relationships while private matters are constantly in the public eye. New romances become media feeding frenzies, while breakups fuel the gossip columns. Her fault.
That's because of you, Sweetish, And then he says that she.
Makes breakups look easy in reality, though painful affairs poets department. Have you listened to all two women?
Then he suggests that breakups are only hurtful to women, which is.
Very you know about Jake Gillen home holding a lot of questions about, like I have a lot of questions about all One of them is about how this article got published because it's not even very good and it feels like it has done its job, and that it will.
Have absolutely trafficked through the roof because everybody's gone on to hate read it. And he probably was someone who said, you know what, I'll take one for circulation this week, and I can take the haters, because anyone who writes this kind of shit about Taylor is right now literally under a mountain of crap. Personally, Taylor's serial monogamy is one of my favorite things about her, and I will genuinely be disappointed if she gets married and has a baby.
I'm like, yeah, no, Taylor, give us a different role model. Like that's one of the I love about her. Some stereotypes and archetypes. She very much uphold being a beautiful, skinny, tall white lady and all the rest of it. But she has overturned so many archetypes about what female artists are capable of, can do, and all that stuff. How And I also love the fact that she is very I mean, and she is not public, let's be honest. Apart from this latest relationship, She's not actually public about
her relationships, but we are all obsessed with them. And the fact that she has dated quite a few dudes, different kinds of dudes, experience lots of different relationships. I love that about her because that's the experience of lots and lots of women.
My favorite point that he makes is this The SuperStar's vocal criticisms of the patriarchy add another layer of complexity. Swift's recent rally and cry against patriarchal structures. She does say fuck the patriarch in one of her songs, quite famously stands in stark contrast to her personal dating choices. The singer often dates strong influential men, celebrities who embody significant social and economic power. This can appear hypocritical. Swift
either doesn't realize this or doesn't care. Neither of the two is a good look. I don't think he understands about powers than any of these.
He thinks that patriarchy looks and is Travis Kelcey and that's not right.
Yeah, And my least favorite thing about the whole Travis Kelcey narrative is the whole She's finally found her prince. I can't wait for the ring on the finger and the baby and the belly. I'm like, I don't want that to keep being awesome.
There was a day why the.
Two mutually exclusive.
They're not.
That's just one of them is very predictable, and it's very full narrative because once she does get married and have a baby, all of the idea will be like she'd achieved all these great things, but motherhood's her greatest role yet.
And I could just do you mean, like how we all felt at the end of Sex and the City, the TV show when they all were paired up, remember that, and everybody was a bit like Oh, well, that's not really what we wanted, that idea of everyone being happily ever after with a partner.
I remember about maybe six years ago, I came into work and I thought, I want to go viral today, and I wrote an opinion I didn't believe and it didn't even do what I wanted it to. But it was like I knew what the features of a viral opinion would be. That's what this man has done. He doesn't believe this.
It is very no I think he does.
I'm doing year eight debating.
It wasn't very convincing.
It was a year eight debating.
Argument and a card that said, argue that Taylor Swift bad role model? And he was like she bad role model?
Because you know, I think he like he can't be honest. He wouldn't have the self reflection or self awareness to say I think she's a bad role model. Because what's going to happen if all of the women decide they don't need men.
And the irony, Oh no, where does that leave me?
Liam Hemsworth, Dev Patel thirty four year old men who don't have kids. You wont talk about Leonardo DiCaprio. He's never been married and he's never had kids and he's nearly fifty And what about that?
Travis kelcey, Oh.
Travis Kelsey, and also how about Elon Musk to talk about a bad role model twelve kids, sleeps on another one of X headquarters and doesn't appear to have a whole lot to do with any of them. But when it comes to men, we're able to pick and choose bits of their lives that we admire, and then the family thing we can just kind of feels a bit irrelevant. But for women, it's like their personal choices are part of whether they're a role model.
Wouldn't want to be these guys, what do we do?
That is it for today? Thank you so much to our wonderful team for making this episode happen, and thank you out louders for listening to us today arguing about things as we have been doing all week.
If you want to listen to the episode everyone's talking about where we really go toe to toe, bare knuckle binfire about Jill Biden. We will put a link in the show notes in case you missed that one. I think that's now going in our cannon as one of our greatest hits.
It was really fun argument.
Can you let us know in the out Louders Facebook group. We want to know where you sit on Jill Biden because Colly and I just think me as well.
Bye bye. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it. There's a link in the episode description