A Baby, A Cat And A Late Onset Psychopath

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Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday's show where we take a break from the news cycle and breathe out.

That was a SMR. Someone's going, Jesse, you never do it.

I hate ASMR. It makes me feel sick.

Okay, okay, fair enough, don't know good vibes.

From jaure cracking start for a Friday.

Today is Friday, the sixteenth of August, And I'm Holly Wainwright.

I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on Today's show, if cats and dogs and rats and hamsters are our fur babies, what happens to them when human babies enter the picture? And a podcast worth binging And an Australian icon whose midlife vulnerability rocks me. Yes, It's recommendation time and best of Worst of the Week include Me as Logis, Jesse Is Margarita's I'm the best piece of.

Advice I've had in forever.

But first mea Friedman.

If you are going away this weekend or in fact, ever, and it involves an airport and a suitcase. Don't tie a ribbon around the handle. Oh, in case you missed it, Muma Mia spoke to Mike Harvey, who is the managing director at First Move International. I don't even know what that is, but he explained why attaching a ribbon to suitcase, which many of us, including me do to help you not pick up the wrong bag off the carousel, which

See, I never have a ribbon, and my bag's always shown up.

So there, have you taken the wrong bag.

Before I have? So I was going to say, I've never done a ribbon, I've never done a tag. I've never done anything. And I just buy the cheapest luggage I can, which happens to be the same luggage as everyone else. And I'm like, who needs a ribbon. I'm not an idiot anyway. I've taken the wrong bag home, opened it gone, these are not my things, and got very angry call from the airport as I had ruined someone's day. I don't like I need my stuff, and I was like, I'll be right there.

So what I do is that my whole bag is a ribbon. I just buy a bag in the most lurid color. Then you can imagine I've got a hot pink suitcase.

Oh of course, Friedman, of you, I like it. I'm bringing trouble today. It's Friday, and I'm feeling feisty. I would like to bring the group's attention to an article in the cut from New York Magazine by a woman who had possibly the best reason ever for remaining anonymous. While writing on the internet. She is complaining about her cat, not only complaining, actually, but confessing. The article is called why Did I Stop loving my cat when I had

Oh I was going to say you sounds so boring, but I mean now, oh my god, it's so good.

As you might gather from the title, the woman in question has a baby and a cat, and the cat came first. She writes in blisteringly honest detail about how since the baby arrived, she not only is less interested in Lucky, her beloved pussy cat, but that she actively resents her. She writes about being tempted but not actually

You had a.

Pet who was your baby, and now you have a baby who is your baby. Does that mean the pet is sentenced to irrelevance. I want to talk about the ethics and the drivers of our love for pets, but first I need to be mischievous and ask my co host, Jesse Stevens, didn't you say something quite similar to this about your beloved dog Chili.

I resent the term similar, because I know I ever expressed a will to kick my dog or leave the doors open. I was a little bit horrified, to be completely honest, by some of the things I read in that article. But what I did say was that it surprised me in the aftermath, in that postpartum period, particularly sort of three or four months after having a baby,

In the car seat. Yeah.

Yeah, So, like, what do you call it when it's sure the capsule the cap I thought.

It meant you just brought an empty capsule to just try out what it looked like in your loundry.

Probably should have. Yeah, but the baby was in the cabcake and he put the capsule down, and the dog was on the other side of the room. But I felt just sheer terror, and I saw in my mind's eye, I was like, the dog attacks the baby. It was all playing out. Had a real visceral response, and from there it's not that I didn't love my dog. I always loved my dog. But I became a little bit scared. I became almost like, very vigilant of keeping the two apart.

Lower in the leaderboard. Yeah, the relationship has shifted.

The relationship shifted, And so I spoke about it on the podcast and I said it it made me sad. That was a mistake, and I it was my worst of the week, right, and that I moved on with my life and continued walking, feeding and watering my dog

Best life, almost her best life, almost wildly displaced as top of the leaderboard exactly, people who get your love in your house.

But but I think that the idea that when a baby comes along, and it's funny, right, because another worst of the week that I had was about how I felt like I wasn't giving enough time and energy to my popuas dementia, to my cousin, who I've always cared for. That caring or the nurturing muscle is finite, It's not endless. There are only so many hours in a day, and when you are physically attached to a baby, you can't have the dog on your lap all day. You just can't.

No, But you are talking about very practical things, and you're very sensible, and you're right one hundred percent. But there's something else going on here, and it's why we get pets in the first place, right, Because what this story was about, and what lots and lots of pieces that are about this very things about, is that very often people get pets before they have babies, and those pets are their babies. As she says in this right, we've repositioned the place of pets in our lives for

You know, there was not everybody does, no, no, of course not.

But culturally is what I'm talking about. Like, culturally we have elevated pets to their fur babies.

Eat their food.

You've seen those ads for the dog and the person's eating it, and there's like, now there's a fragrance that you can buy for your dog.

I took my dogs to a psychiatr.

Dog psychiatry. There are dog hotels. Dog like we have elevated the status of our pets, and like the three of us are all dog people and we all love our dogs enormously. But there is a very real thing at play here. And I've heard you describe it before, Jesse, as like you need a place to put your nurture because I didn't have a dog before I had a kid. I mean I had one when I was growing up.

We do have an instinct to care for things that need to be cared for. Right, And just because you love dogs or love cats, I love your pets doesn't mean that it's a maternal paternal thing. I think that there are people who are brilliant pet owners who don't have any interesting kids, for example. But there's something about the nurturing that's very good for us. And also the physical touch element. Right parents talk about like being touched

Yeah, I mean there's that saying. If you have teenagers and you want someone to be happy to see you when you get home, get a dog. And I think there can be eras not just related to whether you have kids or not and how all those kids are,

That makes me so sad, right, Like it really doesn't be tragic. I was reading a different story about a woman who had three dogs and then she had two kids come along, and she basically went, oh my goodness, this is completely untenable, and you're right what you say, Mayor about there are seasons with pets, But the thing is where does that leave the pet? Right, So you're

Dog is okay. Of course, the dog's okay. But I think we've also got to be realistic. It's like if you were in a polygamous marriage and your partner brought in your partner home and when it's so great, they'll just be more loved to go around. Well maybe maybe, but it's probably not going to be that good for you.

But we're humans. We're humans with quite complex brains. I love dogs. I think they're superiod to humans in a lot of different ways. Dogs brains aren't quite as complex as like I think that the dogs are okay. I really think that the dogs are okay. I don't think they're sitting there doing the maths in their little diary going. I used to get seventy percent of the cuddle, true, and now it's down to forty two percent of the cuddles.

I think about this all the time, because we recently just send our dogs away for a month because we needed to, and I often thought about what they thought. One of them wouldn't have thought anything, because she's barely sentient, but the other one has deep thoughts, and I often wonder if she'd go to sleep going. We had such a great thing, we were so in love, and this I wonder if I'll ever see her again.

People who love their pets, which is hopefully everyone who has a pet, but as you've very rightly point out me, that's not true. We create the entire worlds for them, right, And you also do that when you have a baby. Like so, my dog has a voice. Yeah, she has a lot of opinions. She you know, she knows exactly which of us she likes best. Yeah, she likes I know where she likes to sit most in the house.

But there's almost like.

We really want to create a leaderboard for everybody in the world about what matterson, who loves who most, and all those things.

I don't know why that makes people so mad. If someone sees their dog as their baby. I think that's fantastic. I think if you love something that much, I think if you're trying to compare it in terms of how much work and responsibility it is, I think you're probably wrong. I don't think it's comparable. But I don't think that's

I was reading an interview with Dan Levy, you know, from Shit's Creek. He wrote this movie and starting it about grief, and he was talking about how his inspiration for writing the movie was that his grandmother died during COVID who he was close to. But then his dog died right before filming started, and he'd had this dog and spent every day with this dog for like fifteen years and had come on to set with him and everything.

I don't know Chili's getting a lot of leftovers, yeah, that she's getting a lot of feod in upside and look downside for Chili? Is that my camera roll my phone background. Yeah, used to be Chili used to be everywhere? And do I take less photos of chili? I do? I will admit that publicly. Does chili mind? I don't think so.

Before you had Luna, we used to have a family group chat with some members of our family and your sister, and it used to be about our dogs, our shared dogs, of which there've been different numbers over the years as dogs have come and gone, but not being rehomeed, not being put down. Sadly, one died. We acquired a couple of new ones, and that used to be one of the most active group chats on my phone, and gosh, it's been dormant for a while. I couldn't even remember.

I think when we lost our dog Elvi, I wrote a story I remember saying, like dogs are a place where you put your feelings, like I think pets are, like they are a place where you put your feelings. You know, you can be silly and fun with them, you can be cuddly and loving with them. And to the point about the Dan Levy story, I remember when we lost Elvie, and we were also upset, and Brent was particularly devastated. A lot of women said to me, oh,

There's such a simplicity too. And the stage that I'm in with a you know, just over one year old, there's a simplicity to that too, which is that I will walk in the door this afternoon and there will be a dog and a baby that think I am the best person in the world. Like I walk in and there's smiles from her and the dog's tail wags, and it is like I am the best, and I know that's not going to be there forever. But I see a similarity in that way, that there's a simplicity

We do need proof ofly.

I come home.

She did a defensive post.

I saw it.

She posted a picture of Luca really cuddling Chili. It was a very handsome picture of both of them, and now it's like that is such a defensive post.

She was like, dog's still here.

She wasn't quite holding up a newspaper with the date on it, but she could have been yeah.

Out louders. Last week we announced the Clare and I are doing our biggest Lazy Girl giveaway ever. It is a trip for two to Turkey with Explore and Explore have organized the whole thing for you. So as part of this giveaway, you win a holiday valued at over nine thousand dollars.

Do you know why this is perfect? Because I like going on holidays, but I cannot organize them. I just don't know. You can't find it too, can fusing and I just can't so the fact that it's organized and Turkey. Turkey's beautiful. I've been there before. It's gorgeous.

That's one of the best places in the world. And if you are a Mum and maya subscriber, you're already in the running. You've entered a competition today, you could be winning a holiday to Turkey. If you are not a subscriber, but you would love to enter and enter all future Lazy Girl giveaways, you can use the code VAC twenty for twenty percent off a yearly Muma mea subscription. There's a link in the show note that applies the code automatically at checkout. Prize draw is on the twentieth

It's Friday, so we want to help set up your weekend with our best recommendations. Holly, you're going first, And I'm jealous because I wasn't paying attention in the meeting and you said this, and I was going to say it, but i just want to add a plus one and then I'll do what I have had to do because you got it first.

Dibbs are called DIBs, but it's like shutgun when it's that case, which I think a couple of our recommendations, I to say it can be from both of us. We are allowed to chip appreciate. You are allowed that to do that because it does involve one of your friends. One Lee Sales, who out loud as would know is one of our friends, because what's one of me as friends? But will alclaimer she narrated one of the videos that our live show she did. I forgot about such a

I'm going to have that context because I've only known Nick Cave sort of in the last ten year.

Yes, so that's interesting and always very cool, like cool is the word, Okay, Like unbelievably cool Nick Cave in The Bad Seeds, the Birthday Party, just cool, cool cool.

Right.

The thing is is that, as anyone who lives vaguely near the Internet would know, in the past decade, Nick Cave has suffered unthinkable loss. Several years ago, he lost his son Arthur, who was fifteen years old and tragically appears to have jumped from a cliff near their home on the south coast of England. And then a couple of years ago he lost his adult son, Jethro, who

That he's a father.

First, which all sounds like cliches until you hear him talking about it.

For most of my life, I was just sort of in awe of my own genius because I was involved in this great work that you know, and this just collapsed completely, and I just sort of saw the folly of that, that idea that art sort of trounces everything. It just doesn't apply to me anymore. I am a father, and I'm a husband and a kind of person of the world. These things are much more important to me than the concept of being an artist.

It's like seeing this elder statesman look back on that young version of himself too, and sort of also like kind of laughing at him, which is interesting.

There's something called post traumatic growth that doesn't happen to everybody. We're much more familiar with post traumatic stress syndrome and the terrible things that can happen to people after they've experienced trauma, but there's another group of people who experience the exact opposite. And I've got a friend who lost a child, and she said it was like the light in her life was turned up, not down. And by that, of course, she doesn't mean I'm happier that I was

It's like he's looked up and out and I think that's something that happens Ideally, happens as you mature. I'm going to say, but like it's not all about you anymore, and you look up and out and hit his grief and his loss has made him do that. It's a great interview because at times he's a bit testy with Lee. You can tell that he's been talking about this for a long time now and he's kind of ready to close the chapter.

Almost that's actually not true. So I was talking to Lee about it, and I really liked that they left in the little niggle where he says, actually, today is the anniversary of Jethro's death, and he looks a little bit stricken and she says, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that it was today, and then he's like, look, that's okay. I didn't expect it to come up so early in the interview, and she said that that made

I mean, it's just been the most amazing experience. I wasn't quite prepared for how much it would affect me. This little guy's names Roman Roman Cave is such a gorgeous looking little creature. I mean, it's extraordinary. It's made me extra extraordinarily happy.

And the way that he says that I was just in tears through this interview. It was really really beautiful.

And I didn't mean to suggest that Lee was at all, But what I meant is I've listen to a lot of conversations with him about this, and you can sort of feel that he's.

Like, do you know the other thing that's interesting the almost try to move through it. It wasn't touched on in this, but I've heard him say before, because you're right, it does come up, and how could it not come up in every sort of long form interview that he does. There's an interview that he did with Llui Throw where it came up as well. That's a beautiful interview too. But he said, I can talk about Arthur, but Jethrow, who is his eldest son by his previous partner. Jethrow's

I want to recommend a podcast. I haven't listened to a sort of podcast series in a very long.

Time at Limited Series.

Yeah, I came across it's called Hysterical and it's a wondering podcast. And I've listened to the first five episodes, which are all that are available so far, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm sort of racing through it.

Need too.

I'm calling DIBs on this one.

Yeah, it's so good.

In twenty eleven, something strange began to happen at the high school and Leroy in New York. There was a lot going on with these girls having outbursts.

Reporting more than a dozen girls at Leroy High School say they have an illness that causes severe tics and verbal outburst.

I was like my locker and came up to me and she was like starting super bad. I'm like stucking around. She's like I can't. I felt like Linda Blair in The Exorcise.

It's about a mysterious illness that spread to a number of high school girls in upstate New York. I remember this story.

From the ticking during COVID.

No no, no before that. So it was like these girls started exhibiting like spasms, siezures, ticks, and it was the same kind of noises that they'd make, almost like tourette style, like.

You know, this happened during COVID as well around the world. Yeah, yeah, this.

Is in one little town.

This is in one little town called Leroy in the US, And basically a bunch of psychiatrists looked at it and then they had the state come in and examine what was going on, and they put it down to like a type of social contagion, sort of like you know what teenage girls are, like they're a bit mad. Then what happened is they started looking at like is there an environmental explanation, And the podcast goes back, it looks

It's all so funny. Like I'm really enjoying the podcast, Like it sounds really serious. Really like the way he tells the story is great. It's got humor, and he's spoken to all these girls and all their parents and it's just very satisfying.

I find I'm loving it.

For links to all our recommendations, you've got to be signed up to the mom and Mia out Loud newsletter. I often see out louders go in the Facebook group and they're going, like, what was that show? What was that thing? Just sign up for the newsletter and you will get the links to all our recommendations as well as lots of behind the scenes gossip and stuff from our friend m Vernon. There's a link in the show notes for how.

You do that.

One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mom and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes to get us in your ears five days a week. And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. It's time for our best and worst of the week. This is a part of the show where we share a little bit more from our personal lives. Maya, what is your worst?

My worst is that I'm going to the Logis in I think forty eight hours and I don't have anything to.

Waste my best. I'm so excited to the LOGI.

I want to know what you're I'm so obsessed with the outfit journey.

Like what are the options of the options?

Like what? I don't mean to be rude. My worst is going to the logis And that sounds very privileged and ungrateful, but it's not my jam. I don't like going to big, fancy things. I don't like going then on a Sunday night, or actually any night.

Can I tell you that? I follow Laura Burn on Instagram and this week she shared a story of her at a very fancy dress shop in a ball gown, being like getting ready for the logis, and I panicked for you. I was like, Maya really needs to get on a dress because Laura's really good. And Maya has miss Laura on TV.

I mean, I'm not on TV. May J. Yeah, she's on, but Maddy J on TV. I don't know that on TV. Really not on TV. I really I'm glad that Laura's going to be there because that's another person I know.

But there's people I've seen My Instagram is wall to wall people getting prosiegees, people get putting their face, musket in their hair, like people have been gaming this for weeks.

You know.

I was.

So the reason I'm going out that is because Strife, which I co produced, is nominated for Best Comedy, and so I've been invited by Binge. I'm at the Binge table going with Bruner, feeling very anxious about it. Anxious because I feel like I'm gonna be bored because it goes for six hours and it's just not my thing, right, It's just not my thing. And then also it's a very tricky wardrobe assignment. Not onl like your wedding, Jesse, on.

The invite to the logis because get your address, cod.

Probably says black tight. I mean it's black tight. Everyone watched the logies. You've seen the logis. It's bloody fancy. You don't get much fancy than the logis. As you say, people have had things made. They're wearing ball gowns. Now, there has never been more of a side character at the logies than me. Right, Like, exactly why am I going to the logis? It is not my night. I'm like Asha Kenny, for example, nominated for gold Strife.

Do you know what she's wearing and chatting?

I forgot to ask. I just keep telling her I'm worried about being.

So mayor what are your options?

Well, so what I was going to do is, you know, with your wedding, Jesse. I went and tried on like forty five different dresses. Literally, I think it was forty five different dresses, and it was a whole thing. And I put on Instagram and I was like, I'll do that this time. It'll be great content. And then I went, I can't be bothered, and so I didn't, and I tried on two dresses last weekend I took photos of them and I was like, I'll start making it. No,

So you're doing like a floor length number?

Is that my shopping?

Your closet is what you told So what we're doing is we're trying on things from the closet.

Yeah, Sunday morning, binge, very kindly say more. Do you want to come and have your hair and makeup done? That's my other worst nightmare. We've got a slot for you at eight thirty am. I was like, what time do you have to be it? I don't know, Okay, I want to know all. You know what. My first thing whenever I'm asked anywhere, the first thing I asked, what time can I go home?

And well, I'm not vain, but you need to get a hair made. No tell me that you're not doing a stand up.

Of course I am.

Of course I couldn't stand you can't do hair.

You're getting my hairmake up done at eight thirty. Why you are a box of hair.

This is why you're an enigma wrapped in a riddle, Mere Friedman. Because one of the things people think when they think mere freedman? Is they do think fashion, don't right? Yeah? They know you love clothes. Yep, they know you do. You would imagine that for a lot of people who love clothes. Yes, this is their like everything that you are pull the joy. It's a stylist is like, can I address you?

I'm like, no, let because I can't be bothered. It's boring to me. It's not interesting.

Can you wear eyelashes? You can't go to the.

Bother explain over the makeup art is Lucy? Who does this for the show.

I just don't want to. I'm going to leave and get there late. No one is looking at me. You know when you and you're going to let, no one is looking at you.

You're representing us.

Can you imagine my worst nightmare, which I'm also having anxiety about, if someone grabs me and says, will you be on that spinny thing?

So people, I'll give you one hundred dollars if you get.

I should just.

March up and leap onto the spinny thing. You know, when you're at home and you're watching the logos and you're like, who the fuck is that?

Please get on the spinny You're being a drain.

I need you to lift a radiator for the logies.

It's so true as I'm going to be back on Monday with all the gossip.

And may are speaking of the logis you can still vote?

You can that.

I'm not going to say lines are still open, but we'll have a Lincoln.

Keep Online online kind of line.

I want to say the lines are still open. Good.

If you want to see me, are looking revolting on stage after winning?

Yes, loud as, if you want to see me in real time trying to get an uber? Actually what am I talking about? I will drive because I'm only going to have one drink.

If you want to see me or in a tracksuit, a shiny face and bad hair. Yeah, we need to win. Needs to win, needs to win. So it's in the comedy category. And why are you there but for Asher? Yeah, for the gold.

What's your best?

Come on, cheer up, Dob.

My best is my youngest child turned sixteen this week and we went out for a family dinner, which you didn't come to, Jesse because you had to babysit your own child. What do you call it? Anyway, we did and it was so No, she's not in the family group chat. We do have one group chat. No, she's in the family group chat. I just love this age. You know, I've written a lot about the sadness of your children growing up, particularly your sons and leaving you,

Did you have a really nice dinner.

We had a really nice dinner.

Yet there's Rabbil like food the way that looksal likes food. Some of you like food and some of you not as much.

Remi likes fragrance. Yeah, that's right. Luca used to like food but now sort of doesn't really care. Holly, what's your worst of the way, Okay.

It's a bit grim. You can probably tell from like my Nick gave recommendation. I'm feeling very nihilistic point of it all, you know. It's a bit like that meaning, But my best are related. So my worst is being far from my parents. I know this is like a recurring theme because okay, I have been living far from them for oh like twenty five maybe nearly thirty years. But anyway, they're getting old, as I've discussed because I

Yeah, and you can't.

Lots of my friends because I've got quite a lot of friends, particularly Sydney friends who are from other places, and that a lot of them are having these similar things. And I've spoken before about the plane dashes they have to make, but one of the things too is that often their siblings will be back where they are and having to take on caring responsibilities, and it's hard to

So it's like a remote sandwich, like the Sandwich generation, but a remote sandwich.

And also it's hard because you know, I'm not always very good at like making decisions to action, very unlike me who's very good at decisions to action. But like it really is perplexing to know what the right thing to do is because you can't be on a plane

Was a beautiful newsletter that I sent to you whole that was written by an out louder called Ruth Divine and her newsletters called bearwith She's also English and her mother recently passed away in the UK, and she wrote about what that felt like, and I was like, I didn't know whether to send it to you or not, but I thought ultimately it might be helpful, and I thought she articulated it really BEAUTI with me, absolutely beautiful, because I think it's such a difficult thing.

And I'm not saying it's not any more difficult. In fact, I'm sure it's a lot less difficult than caring for elderly parents or worrying about elderly parents who are down the road.

And a different type.

And that's also part of it, because then there's also guilt. You're also dealing with quite a bit of guilt about like the choices you made that landed you there and all that stuff. But my best is the flip side of that, right, it's the wisdom from the women who've been there before in lots of ways. So one of the things was I spoke to Kylie Gillies on mid

Best advice ever. Right.

Be nice to your mom is an umbrella term that doesn't just mean literally be nice to your mom, but it means make the call you don't want to make. It's what we were talking about about caring the other week, not last week, but recently, Jesse. When you were talking about feeling guilty sometimes that you haven't called Simon or done whatever. It's like, be nice your mom just broadly means like do the right thing as much as you can,

Away or whatever. It is, like look after yourself and.

Be nice to your mum is probably the best advice because you don't know what's going to happen.

It's great.

That's yeah, that's where I've landed this week. Jesse Stevens cheer us all up.

I like that a lot. Well, my worst isn't that cheery. But you know how earlier this week we're talking about panic attacks and talking about Carrie and Nate. Weirdly, this week, I was recording an episode of podcasts, not this one, and I felt myself panicking, and I reckon, I've recorded thousands, thousands of podcasts over eight years and years and years, and I went, oh, I can actually feel it, and

You stop and say I just need a minute because it's not live podcasting, I mean we recorded as live, but.

I needly did, which is I've said that a few times, and I reckon when I'm podcasting, I'm like, oh, I could really do with thirty seconds just to myself to kind of because I reckon, it's aboutating just right, But I actually did what. I was listening to a podcast recently with a psychologist I love, who said when that happens and you start to I think they call it like depersonalization, like where you feel as though you're kind of being pulled out of the most Yeah, and it

You know.

It's funny the gratitude thing, and I've always been very bad at that, but I must say I have never been more grateful for like family and seemingly not those you know, massive shiny things, but just being able to come home and go my relationship with my grandmother's was one of the greatest joys of my life and to see that that gets perpetuated is just such sure, the best, the best thing ever.

And after Luna this week as well, which was just hilarious and delightful.

Yeah, look the people being called on to babysit.

And I love how it's only when you babysit a child that you get a relationship with them because one on one, Yeah, one on one, because otherwise you're always the B team. If someone else, like if I was only spent time with Luna around you, Jesse, I would never be the A team because it's you're the A team. But when there's no one else there, I'm the A team. And then when I'm not there, Jase became the A team and it was so nice, gorgeous.

Speaking of families and people managing careers, babies, we actually had a very interesting conversation as part of a subscriber episode this week. It was all about a particular celebrities divorce dilemma. So she has separated from her partner and in an interview basically said despite all her status, all her money, all her capital, she fell into the trap that a lot of women do in terms of having all the domestic label while also making all the money.

We'll put a link in the show notes. You can listen right now.

It's all we've got time for today and this week. A big thank you to all of you out louders for listening to today's show.

I hope you're.

All going to be watching the log He's on Sunday so we can see me.

Can you imagine if I had to get up on stage, like, if we win, do you.

Have to get a fo God?

I hadn't even thought about that. I had because I'm like, I just want to wear trainers, Like can't I just like, who's going to care? And then I'm like, if we win, I mean, I won't say anything. I'll just be standing at the back.

And you'll look terrible because you've not had your hair on making don't even look very shiny. You're gonna have.

Proper out Louders.

We'll be talking about it next week, you know it on Monday, and anyway, we're going to be back in the Thank you so much to also our amazing production team Emmeline Gazillis and audio production from Leah Porge's for making us sound good.

We love you all.

We'll see you next week.

Bye bye.

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