On the Howl Lady, no this is so true because I hear people talking about and they're great ideas but then I'm like wait a second with my clients, with myself, with my friends, with my daughter, like wait a second. But how do I actually do the thing you're saying? And all of the different work that I do in the world is all about translating from, that's a great idea to how are you actually going to step by step put this in practice.
Welcome to Making Polyamory Work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinback and I want to thank you for joining me today. I'm a queer polyamorous mom and an integrative relationship guide. And I'm here to help people who want to live and love outside the status quo have extraordinary relationships. Because I think relationships are at the core of our well-being as humans. I think love is why we're here and how we heal.
Today is part two of my conversation with Juliane Taylor Shore. If you haven't listened to part one yet, this one actually works as a standalone but I do recommend you listen to the other one, part one, which was last week. In this episode, we go into a listener question that I got asking me what is a boundary violation? If boundaries are just between you and you, how does someone violate your boundaries and how does that work?
It was a really great question and we explored it together and then, Jules generously walked through the six steps to setting a boundary that she outlines in her new book. Which by the way, I'll just say one more time, go get it. It's great. It's an easy read, highly recommend it. You can get it anywhere books are sold. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you and so without further ado, here we go.
Jules, thanks for coming back. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. For part two. So I wanted to bring you back because for two reasons. First of all, I got a very interesting question on boundaries from a listener and I wanted to talk about it with you and get your thoughts. But also because you you are such a practice oriented professional and that your your book is full of practices and by the way, I just got it in the mail and I've read half of it and I love it.
But I thought maybe if you were willing, we could give our listeners give my listeners a taste of some of what you mean when you say like this is actually how you set a boundary not just like understanding why you can and understanding what one could look like. Oh, I'm the howl lady. No, this is so true because I hear people talking about and they're great ideas, but then I'm like, wait a second with my clients with myself with my friends with my daughter like wait a second.
But how do I actually do the thing you're saying and all of the different work that I do in the world is all about translating from that's a great idea to how are you actually going to step by step, put this in practice.
Yeah, well, and I think that's so important because I know for me, a thing that I've observed and also experienced is that once you feel like you can say no like like a lot of boundary work is, you know, keeping things out that don't belong to you or not doing things that you don't want to do.
You know, really not, you know, not forcing yourself to allow things that are not okay for you, right. Yeah, what I've noticed is that sometimes when people realize they can say no, what they feel like they have to do then is to do it harshly. Yeah, and then it feels terrible and it feels not good and then it's a lot out of alignment with your integrity.
And then you're like, wait a second, this feels like crap, but we don't know another way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And and and so then they back off of the boundary and then and you know, or they back off of the relationship. And so it's like, you know, there's this idea of like, how do I set a boundary, but also like, keep the relationship is kind of where I wanted to want it to go.
Yes, I love that. Yeah, my boundaries are all about actually bringing us closer together. Yeah, not pushing us for their part. Well, no, wait, say more about that. So what I care about when it comes to closeness is you don't get to be to be close and not protected. Yeah. And so when I say, oh, a boundary is going to bring us closer together, I think about a boundary around this thing is going to make it more okay for me to spend more time with you.
Because then I'm not worried that you're just going to, I'm that I'm going to have to just be so, so vulnerable that like whatever if you're having a bad day, right, that that's going to go right into me and fuck up my day.
And I know what happens when you have a day, right, and it could be, it could be around things like I'm thinking about a client actually that I was working with who was struggling because their partner was longing to have a work world that has these big moments of kind of hyper work. And for my client, that felt really hard. It felt hard for the family. It felt hard for the for their feeling like they weren't chosen in their relationship.
And so actually setting boundaries around how much exposure the kids and this the my client had to those was a really important part of the of the boundary setting right. And so actually my client decided to start taking little trips with the kids when the hyper work mode would happen and it got to be a fun, exciting, lovely, close experience.
And then when they got back the partner was out of the hyper work mode and celebrating what happened over the weekend with you and the kids and what what ended up happening was closeness was more present between the two partners because a partner wasn't ruminating,
we are um in the standing resending. Why are you up in three in the morning instead of in bed with me and doing this work thing that wasn't happening anymore. And so now we're just celebrating coming back together and how that we've been on these two separate adventures. Oh yeah, yeah instead of in still of I stand you. Yeah. And that's going to push us. And then that dynamic being something that the family is absorbing, yeah.
Right. Exactly. So what I would suggest there is my client took on protecting themselves from that exposure so that they would not build that resentment so that they would not want to reject the partner. That's such a good example. There's another example that's coming to my mind, but I want to pause here because I want, I think this is going to go to our listener question a little bit. So the listener question is about an episode that I did two weeks ago called boundaries aren't magic.
And the listener says, I admit I am confused. I may be misunderstanding, but an implicit part of the message that I get from that episode seems to be that it is basically impossible for someone other than you to violate your boundaries since they are, as you say, between you and you, or at the very least that we have absolutely no responsibility to avoid doing that.
Further, it seems to me that there is perhaps not much of a point in communicating your boundaries to other people, only requests that stem from them. I would be very happy if you could clarify this. And I should add the subject of the message was what is a boundary violation. And I just find this question very interesting. It's a really good question. And I have thoughts that I wanted to know. Well, you use different vocabulary that I think is really, really helpful.
Yeah. So one of the things that this listener said in here is that there is no responsibility to avoid violating someone else's boundary. And that is so interesting because I think the answer is yes and no. I think it's yes and no. I think it is not my responsibility to hold other people's boundaries for them. But I do think is my responsibility is to check and see what's okay and not okay with them. Right. And I think it's a question for your own integrity. This isn't a question.
I think this is such an individual question. It's a question of respect. Yeah. Yeah. How much do I respect other people? How much do I want to be kind to other people? Yeah. Well, and sometimes like there's that tension of how much do I respect you and how much do I need what I need? You know, gosh, I want to come over the good example of this. Oh, here's a good example. So my husband, he has an auditory processing difficulty. I don't like calling it a disorder, it's a difference.
Where for him, two people talking on top of each other is like nightmare for his brain. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if he could possibly humanly set a boundary that he doesn't ever have to experience that, that would be great for him. I don't know that's a thing. Yeah. That's a possible for human beings to do that. But honestly, it truly is like really disruptive to him.
And he could say like at the table, I have a boundary that if people are talking on top of each other, I'm going to get up and talk away from the table. Or you know, if it's about wanting us to not talk on top of each other, then that would be a request. Right. So the thing is, it's a reasonable request and sometimes we can't do it. It's like sometimes we just legit can't do it. I, we have five people in our household, people's ideas are dispensing all over the place.
And sometimes there's just, and like I was raised in a collaborative overlap kind of family. One of my partners was two. My kids have a difficulty with impulse control sometimes. So it's just going to happen. It's just going to happen. And if someone were to say, if I do that, that I'm violating my partner's boundary, it's going to happen. Because I did something that he didn't like. No, it's not violating his boundary.
I may not be being as kind and respectful as I can be because it is kinder to him to notice, hey, this is something that is really uncomfortable for you that you don't like. But where I would go like, it is a violation of like someone's sanctity of their space and is to touch them without permission. Right. You know, to touch someone with like, if I just went and grabbed someone and hugged them without checking to see if that was something they wanted, checking to see if they're ready for that.
Then that I would consider like violating their personal space. You could even say that violating their boundaries. But I like using the word violating consent because I didn't check. I just didn't check. I love this vocabulary. Can we like super highlight? I want to draw a yellow highlighter around this. Consent violation. Right. Well, because there's some things, because when I think of consent, I am taking something from someone else.
I am imposing myself upon someone else rather than just existing in them, maybe not enjoying my existence in some way. So like, if I'm in a shared space with my husband and I interrupt somebody or I interrupt him and he has to experience that, like, now there must have a right to the air. Right. Like, he has a much of a right to want not overlap. And I have as much of a right to want overlap. And so there's nobody who just like wins there. But in terms of my husband's bodily autonomy, that's it.
That belongs to him. I don't get to touch him without asking or having a pre agreement around how that is okay. How that looks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So I would say there's when that first question, what is a boundary violation? Is there such a thing as a boundary violation? I would say, yeah, and I love your language around it. It's a consent violation. And so you could do that in a physical way like you're talking about. You could do that in a mind-changing sort of way. Right.
So if you want someone and try to get them to feel and think differently than they do, I would say that feels like a boundary violation. It's interesting. It's interesting. It's interesting. So this is really a question of what's my responsibility when it comes to the point that it's to being with other people and not being boundary violating or consent violating. I would say it just comes back to a question of respect and kindness.
Although, oh, this is getting, we're going to get in the way through for just to leave it. I love weeds. I love weeds. Yeah, I know you do. I'm just wondering like, because you say that it's not okay or it's intrusive to try to get someone to think or feel differently than how they do. But then where does that, where does trying to influence someone come in like, I really want Chinese food tonight. You're saying you want pizza? Oh, could I convince you? Mm-hmm. Just go get Chinese with me.
Like, it's, should we never convince anybody of anything? Oh, no. I think this is great. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I want us to own both sides of it. I'm a both-hand thinker. So I love influence and no control. And I think the difference for me is saying, yeah, I have influence in the world and I'll use my voice or, you know, use the way I show up in this world to attempt to influence people. I wrote a book. Yeah, you want to influence people. I want to influence.
I am attempting to put a thought out in the world. I hope it influences some folks. I actually do, of course. And that's very different than the energy of, I need to get you to think like me for me to be okay. Right. I need to get you to agree to this thing for us to be able to be connected. So I think there's a difference in intention and willingness to be in the weeds with somebody and to have, well, what if you want pizza and what if you want Chinese food tonight?
Somebody is going to be disappointed or in some manner. Right. Either you're going to be disappointed around not getting the food you want or you're going to be disappointed about not eating the same meal or you're going to, we're not going to be able to avoid the disappointment on this one. Right. So I think there's, there's some space where, yeah, I think it's, I think it's about how we're doing it and what our intention is.
Well, I think actually now that I'm listening to you talk, it goes back to consent. Right. Right. So consent, I like to use the fries model of consent. So consent is freely given, reversible, enthusiastic, informed and specific, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, but that's okay. And so like when I'm thinking about like when you're trying to persuade someone, you can't use coercive, right.
Right. You know, it has to be freely given like you need to give them the freedom to say, no, no is not on the table. And really, there's high amount of consequences for saying, no, then it's not, then, then, then you are, I think being intrusive and inappropriate. And the thing is I can be so subtle. And I mean, it's, my question really is, is to make that you turn. And when I say you turn, I just mean turn inward towards yourself. What is your true intention here?
Is your intention to invite them into a different way of thinking with you? Or is your intention to control their mind in some way? Is your intention to be coercive in some manner? Because you could use any tool in, in the book I wrote or any other one out there, you can use it in a way that's controlling and coercive. And you could use it in a way that's invetational and respectful and kind. So I can't, you know, I cannot make some tool that's impossible to use badly. That's not a thing.
That's not a thing. And I own that that's not a thing. That's just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I think maybe we've answered the question of like, we have no responsibility to avoid violating someone else's boundaries. I think we do. I think we do have responsibility. To check with ourselves, check our intentions and be with our integrity and honor and respect the other person, show them care, which might mean, I mean, and I really want everyone to hear this actually.
I think it's a very good practice actually to check and see what someone else's boundaries might be instead of just waiting for them to voice them. I actually think it's a really good idea. Is it okay if I pay you a compliment? I say that all the time actually. Yeah. Because some people don't like receiving compliments. Right. I used to say yes or no, even if the answer is yes, gives them a chance to prepare. I'm a big fan. Big fan.
Yeah. But on the flip side, but the example you gave with that person and their partner who had the intense work time. And then that one that's not a bite, like, there's no violating of boundaries happening there. Right. There's this person is choosing, I don't want to be around this. This is causing me harm. I can't ask my person not to work and not to go in their hyper work. Motor, maybe I have tried to work with that and tried to negotiate it. Right. Really, this is just what they need.
And so then it's up to me. And this is really a great example because there had been a lot of requests and a lot of shifting actually from the other partner to make it less invasive to the family. Right. And the nature of their work, it's just true. It's just true. There were hyper work moments that really took them out of the family system for three to five days at a time. And instead of doing 20 days at a time, there had been a lot of shifting. So that it wasn't 20 days at a time.
It was down to three to five days at a time. That's a great time. Right. But for those three to five days, they really like this. They really like this. Get out of there. Yeah. And I guess the thing that I want to say to this listener is that I'm a big fan of direct request actually. And in fact, I actually am going to have an episode coming out in a few weeks about how I decide when to make a direct request, when to negotiate and when to set up boundary.
Because those are very different strategies of getting a meat met. And but I'm a big fan. I kind of have a hierarchy actually of like, I will always try requests first. Yes. And unless that just I can tell already that's not available, you know, or I don't want to be in a back and forth negotiation with that person because I'm just that desiring of being that close with them. So I have a real hierarchy of how we do this. So I would say a lot of times, you're right. It isn't about a boundary.
It actually isn't. Most of the time it's not. Most of the time it's a request. And then the person says, yes, you're not a request. And whether someone's going to say yes or no to your request does impact how you feel about how much they care about you. You know, yep, it can. That's where that psychological boundary can come in. And we can we can we can do some thinking around, oh well, how does that make sense for them there? No. In a way that has maybe nothing to do with me.
Oh, that's a good point. But I understand completely that getting a no can be painful. And I'm not going to ever be able to prevent that part. It's disappointing. Right. Well, right. And I guess in in the example of like my husband, like like you said, sometimes it's just it's not a matter of I don't want to or I don't care enough. It's that like I literally sometimes cannot stop the thought from coming out of my mouth. Like I work on it. We all work on it. The request has been made.
But it just doesn't always. It's not always possible. And so I feel like when it's not possible to have a request to be agreed to. Or when it's just not in that realm, you know, when it really just does belong to me is when you would set a boundary and and then keep it. And I guess I'm with you on that. Yeah. By the way, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. I don't start my relational care for myself with boundaries. Thank God. Oh my God, that would be so awful. Horrible.
Well, and you don't need to do that. And the horrible thing is actually, and I I want to just say this because there are people in the polyamory spaces who say, oh, no, I don't make agreements with my partners. I just have boundaries. And I was like, that sounds so. It just sounds so disconnected to me to operate that way. And I guess I want to say that there are people where their relational comfort zone is in like, I don't actually want to negotiate anything with anybody.
I just don't want to do that. They're more on the solo poly spectrum where they just don't have a lot of entanglements. And they really want, they really are prioritizing freedom and autonomy. That's great. So they just don't want to be in that messy negotiating, making a request, having to deal with it when that request is agreed to and then not done. All of that. So I just want to say like that is not the only way to do it. And I wouldn't even say it's completely not right for me.
Yeah. I can totally celebrate that for folks who want that and just be clear with yourself and clear with the people you're with about that. And that's great. Yay. And a lot of people want more entanglement than that. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, because boundaries are great, but there are limits. They can't do everything. They won't do everything. No. I love, I'm more of a direct request negotiation, do all of that first.
And then if there's still something going on that's not okay for you and you need protection, then it's time to figure out what action you're going to take to do something that is actually protected for you. Yes. And this is where I want us to talk about a practice. So, Jules, how do I do that? Right. How? How, how, how, how? I have six steps for you. You just said magic words. Six steps. That's great. Six steps. I'm going to list them all, but we'll go over them a little bit more in depth.
Okay. So, one, find your big why. Two, figure out how you're going to actually say it. Three, anticipate potential responses. Four, anticipate your response to those responses. Five, create a plan for greeting yourself well whenever your feelings are coming up. One, six, keep with the boundary you originally said. So, step one. Big why. So this is, you know what? Boundaries are hard to set.
So you better have a reason to do so that is, has enough emotional oomph that it'll carry you back, carry you through, right? This thing. And I've got a good example. Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering if we can do it. I love it. Let's do it. So my example is from my own past with one of my partners, I did not get along with their other partner. This would be called a metamorph. I didn't get along with my metamorph. She and I just, we really struggled to communicate.
We really struggled to get along and she has a lot of jealousy around my relationship with her partner and a lot of other stuff. It was just very messy and I had a lot of stuff with her too. It was not, it was not a one way thing. And we had tried direct communication. I had tried a lot of direct request and at a certain point I'd actually gotten the message. I don't actually want to communicate with you directly about anything.
Like I'll interact with you in shared spaces, whatever, but I don't want to communicate with you about anything. If you don't like something I did, I don't want to hear about it and I'm not going to work it out with you. Like that was very clearly communicating to me. Yeah. And then any attempts by me to do that was not only, not only made her upset. So she was attempting to set a boundary with me. Please don't communicate with me.
But in, let me tell you what behavior I want from you, you know, which is actually a request. That was actually a request. Right. But you know, I was told by her and by my partner, like this request is really, like, really please keep this request. And I was like, okay, I can keep that request. That's fine. What do I do when we're in a shared space and she says something really shitty and it hurts my feelings. And I can't say, hey, that was really shitty. That hurt my feelings.
Can we make that better? Not available. Not available. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So first, why? What is a big reason why you would like to be doing this differently? Well, I don't want to, I don't want to be in a not good relation with her. Like I know that we can't be friends. That's obviously not available, but I don't want to be pissed at her. And I don't want to then have that leak over into my beautiful relationship with my partner.
Like it feels really important that our relationship, like, isn't like disrupted and, you know, racked by this friction between her and I. She doesn't want that either, you know. And so her attempt is like, I don't want any contact. For me, that feels bad. But yeah. So I want to figure out why would be, yeah, I want my relationship with my partner to feel good and I don't want to be mad at her. Yeah. And those exactly.
So if you let yourself feel that, like, oh, yeah, I do not want to live pissed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to live pissed. Yeah. Yeah. Like I have, you know, respect for her and desire for care for her and, you know, and and I do not want any of any of that pissed that I have been dealing with to affect my beautiful relationship with my partner. Exactly. Right. So those do those feel, umph, enough for you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great.
So that's what I want to say is the not okay thing, which is our action step. What is the not okay thing? Like for example, she says something shitty in a shared space. And then you don't get to work it out with her. You don't get to say anything to her. She's actually asked that and you've actually agreed to it. Would you make change your mind on that? But at this moment, you've agreed to it. Okay. What do you actually want to do to protect yourself in that kind of situation?
What is okay to do? This is so hard, right? Because it has to be something that I do. Yes. Can't be something that she does. I can't. That would be a direct. That would be a direct request. You can ask, but it sounds like that's enough. She's enough. She's enough. So she can't work it out with me. She can't not be who she is. And sometimes she says things that are upsetting to me or do does things that are upsetting to me.
I think then that means I have to minimize my interactions with her because if I don't have a way to not, if I don't have a way to work it out with her and I don't have a way to not be hurt if something that she says hurts me, then I think I have to avoid the experience of her saying something, her fault to me. Like that would be protective of both of us actually. It would protect her from hurting me and it would protect me from being hurt.
Yeah. Okay. And so would this be like a change in how often you're in shared spaces with her? Oh, no, not at all. Not at all. Gotcha. So you would actually choose then to not go to the events where they're shared spaces. Yeah. I would not go if she was going to be there. Okay. Gotcha. So do you need anything from your partner around that? Yeah. I think because they lived together, right? So they did it at the time. This is it old. This is your saying.
Yeah. Yeah. But they were living together and so I wouldn't go to their house if she was there. Got it. Gotcha. And then yeah, I wouldn't go to a party with him if she was there. I think I could be at a party not with him if she was there. But I think if he was there and she was there, then I don't think I would want to be. So you may be neat as part of this boundary to make a direct request from your partner to warn you about where she's going to be. Yeah. That's right.
Yeah. And also he would need to, I mean, really the boundary would most need to be expressed with him because it would be a change in expectation because previously we were kind of switching off spending time at each other's houses. And I would basically be saying, I'll only be at your house if she's not there. It's a great which she's there. A lot. Frequently enough. And, you know, so I would just be at his house a whole lot less. Right.
So this would be a boundary you're going to set with your partner where you're saying it's okay with me that we have this poly relationship. It's okay with me that you're with this partner. It's not okay with me to be able to share space with her and not be able to communicate with her. Right. So what I'd like to do instead is not be in spaces like not go over the house when she's there, not go to parties where you're both there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Exactly.
Does that feel okay to say? Yeah. Do the part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm, yeah. I'm already jumping into the next step. I'm like, I know I'm thinking about what he would say or what he would do or how he would respond. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a, hey, it's not okay with me to share space with somebody if I can't communicate to them when things are hard. That just feels so clear to me.
Like, if I can't do this, then I can't, I can't pretend that we're in relationship when we're not basically. Yeah. Exactly. That's it. Right. So then you got to step three immediately, which by the way happens for everybody. The second we even anticipate what we're going to say, we worry instantly about how the other person is going to respond. Exactly. That's common. So how might the other person respond? How might your partner respond when you made this really clear?
What I'm imagining is he would agree that that's a good idea, actually. I think he would be disappointed. I think where it's going to get uncomfortable is not when the first time that I communicated with him, but probably there's going to be a moment when we want to be together. Yeah. And then she's going to disrupt that in some way. And so we're not going to get to see each other because I'll have to say no to the invitation because I don't want to interact with her.
Okay. And that's going to be hard for me too. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's what now go back to your big why every moment. Right. That's why we have our big why set first, right? Go back and greet that with yep. This is hard. And also I don't want to live this off. I don't want to live this off. I want to protect my partnership. Right. And then in that moment when you had to stick to this thing, what would he do or feel that would be so hard for you? Oh, I mean, it just be his face.
Honestly, like he just he might get a little down. Yeah. You know, he's he's actually like a person who really doesn't push isn't like a boundary pushing type person. And I think that's actually like I actually think he needs to do more push bend. But but still like I can, you know, he I think I would see the disappointment and I would want to fix it. Perfect. Okay. Great. Look, you jump to step four. Exactly. So here's that one of fix it energy. Right.
And and that one of fix it energy isn't in your body. Is it the thought? Is it a feeling? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel it in my chest and like I feel just like leaning forward like I always want to care for you. I want to make it all better. You know, if you followed through with that feeling, what would that feeling have you do next? Would it have you to go somewhere you shouldn't be going in order to take care of yourself? What do you do with that fix it feeling? I mean, I push myself.
I push myself to be around her when I wouldn't feel good. And I probably wouldn't I probably feel kind of on edge the whole time that I was doing that. Yeah. Well, you just did a thing that you would promised yourself you wouldn't right. To take care of yourself. Yeah. So I get you broke your own consent there. So I get why you have some tension, right? Yeah. Okay. Feel that fix it energy. And now we're going to move on to step five.
Five. How are you going to greet that fix it energy with enough kindness and enough containment that it does not drive your next move? Oh, okay. Oh, am I going to greet that fix it energy? It's not my job to fix it. I can't fix it. I can't fix it. I can't fix it. I can't fix it. And it's not my to fix. And what I really need to do is be compassionate with me that I can't fix it. And then also compassionate with him because I know that's a painful. Of course, this is hard. This is hard for you.
This is hard for me. Yeah. This is hard all around. Yeah. That's interesting what's coming up. It's a hard situation. Yeah. What's coming up is like I want to just instead of trying to fix it, just show him like care in that moment. I think that that feels soothing to me because it's not fixing it, but at least it's not saying sucks to be you. You know, totally. Instead, I kind of would just want to be like, yeah, this is hard.
And I wish I could go and like I want to offer him some comfort while also holding my boundary. Yeah, this is hard. I wish I could go. Yeah. I really know it's not the best thing for me. Yeah. And I have think I also have to remind myself that I'm not being unreasonable or harsh or mean like I'm not being. That's right. I'm not being overly rigid, you know, I think that like or, you know, or I'm not, there's not a power play. That's not, it's not anything like that.
You know, it's not, yeah, this is not mean. Exactly. So remind yourself of your big why. So a lot of times in step five, folks remind themselves of their big why. Yeah. Sometimes if something they discovered in step two, like we're going to do right now. So you greet that fix it energy with compassion. And of course, this is hard all around. Yeah. And she's going to probably feel bad too interestingly enough. I'm sure like, at least I'm imagining that, you know, I won't see it. I won't hear it.
But I'm making up that that like he might be mad at her. And then she's going to feel bad because I'm not showing up and then I'm going to create tension in their relationship. Mm hmm. Oof. And I think I just need to say that doesn't belong to me. Right. That doesn't belong to me. And if somebody, because I mean, the thing I guess now that I'm thinking about it more, it's like, oh, is that going to be received as like a punishment?
You know, is, you know, because she doesn't want to interact with me. Well, it may be. It may not. Yeah. My question is not that actually. My question is, are you doing this to punish her? Are you doing this to punish him? No, not at all. Not at all. No, no, no. You cannot help how they receive that. Yeah. That's true. So I mean, they may say it's a punishment, but are you doing it as a punishment? That's my question. Nope. Nope. Okay. So absolutely not.
The fixed energy needs a little compassion reminder, this is not a punishment. This is not nope. And you're doing it to protect yourself from anger. You're doing it to protect your partnership. And you're doing it because, and this is what we learned in step two, when we went through it for you, because for you, it is not actually possible to be in close relationship with someone and also not speak to them when things are hard. Yes. That's actually just not a possibility for you.
It just doesn't work for me. No, I just can't do it. Right. That just doesn't fit in your, in your integrity and your relational well-being to do. I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I myself, like, I'm staying in my own integrity of what it means to be in relationship. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And that may not match everybody else's idea of what it means to be in relationship. And that's okay. We don't have to control them for you to be okay. And then, who now?
What would you say to your sweet partner in that moment where, yeah, you're both going to be disappointed because you're going to say, no, I'm not going to go. No, I'm not going to come. I really wish I could, but this is what's right for me. Yeah. And I can't wait to see you the next time I see you. Yeah. How's that feel? It feels good. It feels good. It feels good. Hard and good. Both things. Yeah. Well, because I mean, like, I might want to go to the thing, you know?
Yeah. I'm saying yes to disappointment when I say yes to boundaries. Yeah. And I think if you're going to get this about boundaries, I think if you're going to set boundaries, you are going to experience more disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's in part going back to what we were just saying about, it's so lovely to make a request and get a guess and then have that be a mutual thing. And a boundaries not mutual. It's unilateral.
You're deciding for yourself, which means you don't get that mutuality. And in fact, you might get, like I don't love that boundary. I wish that boundary were different. Of course, it's going to feel disappointing if what you're trying to do is create closeness. You know? Yeah. Oh, but just even I will tell you, like I set this boundary. This is exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. And it was amazing. It was hard at first. It was really hard at first.
Because, because yeah, a lot of times what was happening as I got a little less time with my partner. I got a little less time because there were times when it just wasn't possible for me to see him without her around. Yeah. And so there was, and there was a shift in like I, like it wasn't totally fair either because it meant that dates, if more dates were happening at my house, if we were at someone's house than at his, which just kind of wasn't fair.
But in terms of it being equal, you know, I guess it's fair in the sense that it was what we needed. It was appropriate. But anyway. But there was the sense of like equality that I was like noticing. But ultimately, it really like de-escalated all of the shit that had been going on. Oh, great. And we were able to focus on our relationship instead of on this other situation that just wasn't working.
But yeah, there was disappointment around like, because what we really, I think all of us wanted was like this more kitchen table dynamic where we could all do all kinds of stuff together. And instead, I really had to just like take care of myself and accept what was available and let go of what wasn't. But yeah, so it was, it was hard and worth it. And totally worth it, totally worth it. And I mean, that relationship is now like, I mean, we've been together seven years at this point.
Yeah. And I, I don't think our relationship could have survived if I hadn't said that boundary actually. Yeah. So this is what I mean. Boundaries bring us into more connection. Yeah. That's true. That's a good one. And to go back to the listener, like, there's no way she could have violated that boundary. That's impossible. Like, it was my best. There's no way your partner could have violated that boundary. Yeah, if she was there, I would leave.
That's it. Yeah. Now I could say, hey, I'm going to be at this thing. Please don't come. I can't control her. Yeah. That's the direct request. That's not a boundary. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Direct request. It's only a direct request if, no, is okay. If, if, if no is not okay, you just made a demand. And you get to decide whether demands are okay with you or not. I don't get to say that. But, but I know from the demands are not a thing that I do. Well, I mean, I've luck with that.
I mean, if you have somebody who is, if you're making demands of them and they're accepting them, I do think that, you know, there are times when maybe that will be okay. But I think if that's the way you're operating your relationship, you might wear that out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Exactly. Wow. So that's amazing.
I think I, I just, I want to highlight the things that I think are amazing about the six steps that you outlined there that I think I don't hear a lot of people doing when they talk about boundaries, like the, the, the most powerful thing, those two steps in that that I think are the most powerful, which is anticipate what the other person is going to do and what you are going to feel about what they're going to do in response to your boundary.
Because I think a lot of times, maybe people like, you know, maybe in this subconscious part of them are anticipating what's going to happen, but they don't necessarily bring it forward and put it in front of you. And put it in front of them and say, okay, this is how they might respond. And this is how I'm going to feel. And then the second thing is like, and how am I going to care for myself so that I can keep the boundary.
Yes. And I think a way a lot of people care for themselves is one of two ways, either without if they don't consciously create a care plan for themselves. And then I just put up a wall, like they're going to emotionally disconnect as a way of protecting themselves from whatever somebody might be feeling about their boundary. And then of course it does feel mean, right? And of course the boundary does feel mean and it does break connection and it does break connection. Right. Right.
But the other thing we do is we fold, right? Exactly. That was the second thing. The other thing is we fold and we don't keep it. We start to feel like our words are meaningless because we've made them so. Totally. And I'm thinking back in different moments in my life, you know, I write about boundaries because I need to work on boundaries. That's why we do the thing. Right. But I think back, that was like my main way of dealing was the that second one would fold.
And what I would end up in is shame pit after shame pit after shame pit where I feel like I failed myself. And I was right that I failed myself. Right. I had not done protection. I had given in and done whatever did not feel good to me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so that just swirl of unworthy shame sort of feeling was in me kind of constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I also didn't want to be harsh. I didn't want to well off. So I wanted to figure out how could I do this in different way?
Yeah. It doesn't just feel like harshness. But does feel like, is it possible maybe to say, say what isn't okay and stick to it? Right. Yeah. And notice we do all these six steps away from the situation. Yes. So that you're prepared for the situation once you actually do the thing. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing this with me. You're welcome. No joke. You'll go by the book. It's not a very long book. It's a very quick. It's actually. Yeah. It's a beautiful piece of work.
And I just, I just, I, I love all of the practices in it. And I just, you know, if you're listening to this and you're a client of mine, you're going to probably get one in a mail. Because I just think it's a wonderful book. So go by the book. It comes out. Disappointment. It's actually out now on Amazon. I think. Yeah. Amazon released it early. It's a fancy thing Amazon, I guess, gets to do. I don't know how that works.
But if you, if you ordered it on Amazon, it's already in your mailbox, probably. Yeah. You can also get it on bookshop.org or get it at your local bookstore. And if they don't have it, ask for it. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And December 1st is around the corner. So. Thanks, Jules, for coming back on my show. I'm so glad you're here. In the world. Yes, you're very welcome. And thank you for having me back. And I just lots of love to you. Thanks. Thank you so much for joining me today.
If you have any thoughts about what I've said today or a question for the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram as that PolyM mom, or you can go to the shows website making polyamory work.com and submit a question there. I'll also say that if you're loving my podcasts, but you are looking for more support, I do this for a living. I am an integrated relationship guide. So I help individuals, couples and groups have amazing relationships.
You can find out more about my offerings on my website. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends, your networks, your Facebook groups, your coworkers, your family, etc. And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Also, if you listen on iTunes, I always love getting reviews. It literally makes my day. And it'll also help more people find the show. Making PolyMory work is created by me, Libby Sinback.
It is edited by Finn of the Normalizing Non-Minogamy podcast and hosted on the Spotify Podcasts platform. Vandalion manages the website and posts the transcripts. Thank you everyone and see you next time.