If you get something, that means it's a zero-sum game, that means I lose something. And so this idea, this attitude of all or nothing, your success means my failure. What is going to keep us separated? Welcome to Making Polyamory Work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinback and I want to thank you for joining me today. I'm a queer polyamorous mom and an integrated relationship guide.
And I'm committed to helping people who live and love outside the status quo have extraordinary relationships because relationships are at the core of our well-being as humans. I think love is why we're here and how we heal. On today's show, I am joined by the amazing and talented Genevieve King. Some of you may know her as Chill Polyamory on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. She's a queer polyamorous relationship anarchist and has been practicing in those relationship styles for over 12 years.
And that's really all she wrote about herself, but I just want to add that her work is really inspiring to me. I think she creates such incredible content, both short form on TikTok and Instagram, just really beautiful short videos that are educational, deeply compassionate and thoughtful and really just practical and useful.
And then she also has a new YouTube channel out where she's going to be talking about polyamory in film and TV and kind of really going into the stories and dissecting what's happening. I watched her most recent video on YouTube about the movie Past Lives. And if you haven't seen that movie, oh my gosh, you have to see it. It really is polyamorous, but also it's not at the same time. It's just really good.
It's such a beautiful movie and I love the way Genevieve breaks down what's happening in the film. I really enjoyed and appreciated this conversation with Genevieve. We mostly are talking about individualism, dominant culture, power over culture and how it's really essential if you want to have polyamorous relationships to really deprogram yourself from that.
And that is actually quite hard to do and that there are structures holding that way of being in place and there's a lot of cultural baggage that comes along with it. We're all kind of trained to be individualistic and kind of power over. But Genevieve and I talk about how to be power with, how to have a community mindset, how to have a sharing mindset instead of a I get mine and you get yours and we're all competing.
I could say a whole lot more about the conversation, but instead I'm just going to like let us dive right into it. I know without further ado, my conversation with Genevieve King aka Chill Polyamory. Welcome, welcome Genevieve to making Polyamory work. I am so excited to have you here. Thank you for having me. Yay. So my first question that I always ask folks when I have a guest on my show is just tell me about you, the human, like introduce yourself.
I've already talked a little bit about you in the intro, but I'd love to hear from you. Like what do you want to say about who you are? Sure. I'm Genevieve. I'm, how old am I now, 37? I stopped counting. I've been non-monogamous and polyamorous for 12 years and I have been educating on it for about six years. My work in like education is a lot of peer support. It's a lot of sharing my own experiences, do with it what you will, non-prescriptive or diagnostic. And I'm also a cult survivor.
I left a cult 15 years ago or so and I'm in recovery for disordered eating since 2002. So yeah, a lot of my work also deals with like control environments, high control environments or self- you know, self-harm, self-control. So it's sort of intersects. It's all together of like anyone who relates to me. I'm happy to chat with you as like, you know, stand in bigger sister essentially.
Yeah. Well, and you also, you've been stretching and took creating some cool content about movies and TV and media representation for polyamory and non-monogamy. And I'm super excited about more of that as well. Yeah, yeah. Well, in a past life, I had a career in film and TV.
I was working from like ages 17 to 23 in that industry and have been editing videos like I used to do VHS tape to tape edits when I was like 10 or 11, you know, so I've always really loved visual storytelling, which is why making TikToks and Instagram Reels has always been fun. But now I'm going into YouTube, which will polyamory on YouTube as well with it like long form video essays, because that's what I watch, you know, I don't have TV. I don't even have Netflix anymore.
I just pretty much only watch YouTube. And I was like, well, this doesn't exist. I don't see people talking about non-monogamy in long form in in film and TV analysis. So I said, well, why don't I do that? So I also wanted to have a little more fun, you know. So are you aiming to be like the Lindsay Ellis's polyamory? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, genre specific maybe, but nothing so thoroughly researched your academic. I'm like, here's my heart take of examples.
And plus, I think, you know, examples are so beneficial. You know, there's a lot that we can do in talking about theory, but I offer my own examples, but that's very limited to my experience. And so the nice thing about looking at film and TV, non-monogamy is we can critique people who aren't real and see an example and say, this is what I think is great. Here's what I think is messy and they did wrong. And so that can hopefully be of service.
Well, when I think about like storytelling and how important storytelling is to people figuring out themselves, right, like when you are looking for an idea of how you want to live or how you want to be, a place you would look is a film, a movie, a book, a TV show. Like those are obviously also entertainment, but I think sometimes we're also looking for like what are some possibilities of how my story could go? What are some ways that I could write my own story?
And so that's, you know, that's why representation of all different kinds is so important. And of course, non-monogamous relationships get the sherd end of the stick most of the time. So I love the idea of that being something that is like looked at more deeply. Like what's the story we're telling here? How can we look at that story differently? How can we, you know, not just go, oh, well, that's the only version of the story that we could have?
Yeah, it's so common for people to not really see models of other relationship structures. So common for people to enter monogamy with fairy tales in their head that they saw on screen for my young age, right? Of just like, this is how it should go. This is how you're supposed to do it. And so I think we internalize that. And so yeah, seeing more examples and more models, but as well, I think a lot of at least currently, a lot of non-monogamy on screen is written by monogamous people.
And so I want somebody to be speaking back to it to be like, wait a second, wait a second, you know, like at the very least, while it could be, well, there's so many messy examples, there's so much triad focus of like, you know, FFM triads being like the only representation in so many spaces. It's like, can we add more to that conversation? Or can, yeah, I got something to say. So. But I would love for more people to do it as well.
I'd love for there to be a lot more conversation on how we're shown to, you know, larger audiences who may not have ever met a non-monogamous person. Yeah, side note, there is a film that I watched in a film class when I was in college. And I can't remember the name of it, but I'll link it in the show notes because I actually think it was a good movie. It's this movie about, it's that Marlene and Dietrich in it. So it's really old movie. And she is Mary and has a kid.
And then I don't remember exactly the circumstances in which it happened that she ended up having to leave her husband. She took her kid with her and they're like on the road and they're like, you know, penniless and like riding in the back of train cars, kind of thing. And then she becomes like this, or maybe she already was this nightclub actor, whatever. And anyway, this wealthy patron of the nightclub act falls in love with her and she falls in love with him. And but she's still married.
And apparently, so the movie, it's clear that she's in love with both of these men and both of them, like she's in love with her husband and she's in love with the, and I think the wealthy guy is played by Carrie Grant, I think, because he's a brown. So very attractive people in the movie. And apparently the original ending of the story, according to Marlene and Dietrich, was that she ended up with both of them. But they had to change it, of course, for the movie censors.
So it did, you know, she had to, I think, end up with her husband at the end, but in the original script of the story, she ended up with both of them. I was like, oh, I want that story. Right? Wow, that's very cool. That's very cool. Like 30s or 40s, like the long time ago. But like it was out there then and I was just like, and again, that's inspiring to me to think, like this isn't new. This isn't a new way of thinking.
This isn't, this is just, there's an opening now culturally for it to be more acceptable. But there were other openings and there were other times. There were other places where, and other cultures, obviously, where non-minogamy was like, perfectly, like not that radical, you know? Yeah, I mean, if anything, we're finding our way back to just more variety of norms, you know?
Like we're undoing what a lot of like the singular, you know, enforced mononormative, this heteronormative colonial infrastructure, now we're sort of trying to undo that and open up the variety of ways that humanity looks. And like you said, a lot of cultures, like a lot of forms of non-minogamy are so old, so like millennia old. And I love that. Yeah, we're not enforcing people to betray themselves or hide themselves as much anymore.
Yeah. Well, and I want to get into that topic a little bit more because I will tell you as a coach myself, and so I work with clients in all types of configurations. And folks will reach out to me and a recurring theme that I hear. And it's, it comes up in two different ways. One recurring theme that I have, are people who are really looking for something different than the, you know, the escalator, monogamous family model, and they're really trying to create something different for themselves.
And they're trying to create something different for themselves that doesn't mean that they're free-floating and unconnected and unsupported, right? That they have something that's rooted, that's rich, whether it's romantic relationships or, you know, chosen family community or what have you. And they are kind of bumping up against like people that partner with them that are like, you should live with me.
You know, you know, all of the kind of, they want to ride the escalator and they're having a hard time like holding their own. So I have those folks that sometimes work with me where it's like, no, you can do what you want. You know, let's, let's think about how do you create what you want and find the people that are going to want to do that with you. So that's one group of people. And then there's another group of people that are more in lifestyle like I am, which is I'm a mom.
I live in just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. So kind of in the suburbs, I have a, it's not exactly a nuclear family because I'm living with two partners and two kids, but it's, you know, it's as pretty close to a nuclear family as you can get, you know, and we have a single family home. And yet what we all long for is to be part of an interconnected community. Like we want our village, right?
And a lot of, I've talked to a lot of couples, either couples or their couples with kids who are longing for that village kind of thing. And I've had several of those folks that I talked to, like seeking out non-monogamy has been like a strategy to try to like build that village, to try to build more connections.
And I think the reason why that's happening is why non-monogamy looks like the way is because it's like, well, I built, this chosen family through marriage or through partner partnership, romantic and sexual partnership. So that's just how you do it. And so I just need to find more like partners, you know? But it just, what speaks to me is that there's this desire for community, for community care.
You know, there's a lot on the internet right now about looking for like that third place where everybody meets together. That's happening a lot. And I guess you created a lot of content, but talks to speaks to that, like speaks to this idea that like, it's not just about like shedding the layers of societal norms and stretching into your true identity or whatever, but it's more like, how do we create more connections across a broader spectrum?
And how do we have not just these individualistic like pads, but how do we have like a broader, be part of a broader community of care, because that's where our collective liberation lies. And I guess I just want to talk about that. Sure. Because I think that I, for me, where I struggle is the ideal is there. And then the practical execution of it, actualization of it is hard. And I'd love to hear, because it seems like you're doing that in your life.
Like it seems like, and I guess I'd love to start there. Like, how is that playing out for you? Because you're in Germany. So you're not even in the United States. So there's probably a different ballgame just being in a different country. But I guess I'd just love to hear, like, how is that working for you to be in that, like I'm aiming for something that's more like that, like more like a community-minded lifestyle?
Yeah. I mean, I think we run into a lot of structural barriers, you know, of what is being legislated, what is being incentivized, right? Because I know people who want to live in a house with a lot of people, and there might be housing laws that say, nope, you're, this isn't done for X, a number of people who aren't family legally, right? And I've, so I've seen people get legally married. Does that happen in Germany? Like, in Germany, I'm still learning all of the, the laws here.
I'm still learning the language. So there's a lot of complexity. I'm still discovering what's interesting here. And one of the reasons that I was interested to move, one, I mean, I have my own heritage here that I'm sort of reconnecting with and learning more about, which is complicated. But as well, I think just the nature of the country, there are some attitudes that are lingering, especially in Berlin, that are a bit more geared towards a communal care.
These practical examples are like, they're, it's very normal here to have speaking in Berlin anyway, to have just spaces on the street that are public sort of give and take. So anything that you want to give away that's perfectly good, you just set it on this shelf and, but we'll come and take it if they want it. And they come and put their stuff, right?
And so it's this, even if you don't see or meet or know the names of your neighbors, all of them, there is this support and this focus on trying to minimize waste. And so I find that to be really beautiful. There are these giant buckets of water next to communal gardens where if you walk by and you see that something could use some love, you just pick up the can and you just water it and you walk on.
So there's this like real flow that I did not experience in the US, at least living in major cities, especially. There was a lot more isolation that I experienced in the US, a lot more preoccupation with the self and self-actualization and individualism. That absolutely happens here too, right? I doubt there's any place that's utopian. But yeah, I think there might be, I wanted to go to a place where there might be fewer barriers to the people themselves being able to imagine it.
Because that's the other thing like you were saying is like, you want these communal spaces, but it requires everybody to have similar goals and similar values. And if people are coming in saying, yes, I care about you, but at the end of the day, they are their top priority or their spouse is their top priority.
No shade if that's like how the things need to be constructed, but there can be a lot of theory not matching practice and so building this network that you're describing, it requires everybody involved to want that. And so there absolutely are long standing communities of care that don't require polyamory.
I think a lot of times people do see it as a shortcut, like you mentioned, of, yeah, well, and I think that, in my theory, is that that speaks more to our idealizing of romance as more important than non-romance. And so which practically like can be a reality for people if you're wanting to be as important as their spouse or something, sometimes people won't even put you in that box of possible importance unless they feel romantically towards you.
And so there is a lot that goes into creating this network is like kind of unlearning the idea that friends are less important or they are bonus people, you know, like actually, yeah, actually seeing everybody as valuable and worth investing in.
Yeah, well, and I wonder just, I have so many thoughts to share about that just from my own experience, but I guess I'm curious from your experience you said before, like sometimes there are like, we structural barriers to really creating those communities of care with, you know, with friend networks, with chosen family, that kind of thing. But I guess I'm wondering just how is it playing out for you right now if you're comfortable sharing? Of course.
Yeah, so I got legally married to another partner for immigration purposes. And of course, all about that is it was negotiated with everybody that we were really close to. And it was a talk of like, okay, if this doesn't feel okay to people, it's not that we're asking everyone permission, but it was more of like how can we take care of you? How can we make sure everybody's taking care of? And this plan to sign this contract was to protect the partner and allow for immigration.
And it legally gave him more rights and, you know, more like access to stuff. And that can't really be ignored and it also isn't inherently a bad thing. Like it can be negotiated. Yeah. And the other people that we were close to were like, okay, that doesn't really stuff on my toes at the moment, but what is a path to divorce if it ever seems like it isn't cool anymore?
And not that they could then say I want you to divorce because we would still all assess as a team of like, no, at the end of the day, you know, risk of deportation still feels like not worth it, you know, how else can we mitigate these imbalances? And so that was a very practical way that I saw navigating these structures, the layout was like a lot of conversation and consideration. And everybody felt equally valued even though legally, they literally don't have as many rights, you know?
I just want to interrupt here and just like pause you there because that what you're just describing there sounds really radical like the idea that deciding to marry someone would be something that is a communal act. Like and not just a communal act in the sense that like, you know, a lot of times in wedding right, well, you know, the couple will stand before the people attending there, which are usually their family and friends and say, you know, do you support this couple and uplift
them and their relationship and are you going to be to hold them and, you know, all that kind of stuff, which I think is one form of like community support, but it still is like lifting up the couple as like the top thing, you know? But what you're talking about is like, how can this decision to make this particular type of contract between these two people in a larger ecosystem still be caring for the whole ecosystem instead of actually elevating the couple above everybody else?
Am I giving that right? Absolutely, absolutely. Because we, I mean, I personally thought I would never marry. I just saw it go so poorly for both of my parents getting married in divorce three times each and I was like, I'd rather not like, you just love each other and keep the government out of it, you know? And like, but the reality is, is like some of the stuff that we wanted to do, I wanted to move in this partner was the only one who wanted to move with me.
I was like, this is a tool like that we could use is to make life easier, you know? And so, yeah, but I think that's the thing. And whenever I'm talking about like challenging hierarchy, there's some hierarchy that we literally can't challenge, unless we change the laws. And we within ourselves can at least include everyone that will be affected, include them in the conversation and say like, how can I take care of you? How can we mitigate any like repercussions, any side effects of this?
And so that can still lead to everybody feeling valuable and having the floor to speak up to be, you know, asked, how do you feel before a decision has finalized? Yeah, so that tends to be how we approach things. But I can give another anecdote of like how it continues to play out in smaller ways, because of course you're not always navigating those big decisions. Right.
There is an attitude among myself and my people that I'm closest to that sort of like even if we've not met someone who you're tight with, like if they need help and I can provide that, even if I don't know them, I trust like that they're in our network. So let's help them, right? There's this conceptualizing of even if we don't like see each other every day, you mad or you're in our extended family.
And so I was dating this woman for a few months and we were on the train and she got her phone stolen. She got her wallet taken, I think, too. And she was really distraught and she is a single mom and she was, I think she's like an educator and didn't like, you know, have a high income and the phone matters a lot.
And so I came back to my partner and I was like, hey, don't we have like an old iPhone that we've used sometimes for extra stuff, but like isn't it just sitting in a drawer and does it still work and could we give it to her? And he didn't even think twice. He was like, yeah, absolutely. He'd never met her. You know, I don't date her anymore even and I don't regret it. Like, we just gave her an iPhone because she needed one, you know?
And that felt really beautiful to me that like there was no question that if it like from each according to ability, you know, to each according to need, that that that value system is shared regardless of who we bring close. So that is how it continues to play out is like in those small interactions as well. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
And it's interesting, even as you highlight that kind of small thing, I think, well, I mean, that is how a lot of my community, the community that I do have, which is primarily through my kids these days. So like I'm friends with my kids, friends, parents. But like, I find myself as a parent and my kids are, you know, eight and 10 as of this recording.
So they're in elementary school and still can't really be left alone for any length of time, like a short period of time, yes, because they're like, they're old enough that like we could like run a quick errand and then come home. But for them, most part they need to be with adults. They're just too young.
And so there's a lot of care that's needed there and the thing is like when when I'm friends with other parents who are in the same boat, there's a lot of care that everybody's doing all the time. And so everybody, and so you think that there would be this way to like split that up to share to be like, I'll take your kids, you take mine. And I and and I know families that do that, even like monogamous families would do that.
But I just keep thinking about like not just structural barriers, but like actual capacity barriers to provide care to each other, you know. And I guess do you ever run into that where it's like someone in your network needs help or needs support? Maybe they've got health issue or maybe they need childcare or maybe they have a family member who is, you know, ill or something. And there is like a high level need of care or support and like finding the capacity to do that is tricky.
You ever run into it, stuff like that? Like how you handle it? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we live in an exhausting world and like that goes, you know, and so like I think even sometimes having enough energy for ourselves and for most interdependent relationships can be daunting. So yeah, I think even if somebody we care about has a need, if we don't have the ability or capacity to fulfill that, then we say that, right? I don't.
Yeah. But at the same time, I think is there a willingness to like brainstorm as friends, as teammates, as partners, like brainstorm, what solution there could be? Could we imagine something that might be different? Could we work toward that? So I don't have children, but I have experienced with like different, you know, house sitting and pet sitting and things of that nature, like different kinds of logistical and day-to-day care.
Hey, can like your friend of a friend like help me out this weekend, you know, and how can I support them in return and like, you know, get to know them more? And so, but I think assessing like, yeah, making sure our cup feels full. But I really think that, you know, being part of a community also means accepting help. And you know, I don't want to always be giving. I don't think people should always be giving like, it means receiving as well.
Wait, I want to say that back to you because I think that's a really important thing you just said there that being part of a community means accepting help. And I think that's so important because I think capacity fluctuates, right? Like sometimes I have more energy, sometimes I have more time, sometimes I have more time, sometimes I have less time. And being able to give when you can and then being able to receive when you can't, it's tricky, right?
Like even like as you were saying, like being part of a community means accepting help, accepting support, being on the receiving end when you need it. I think that's a place where a lot of people struggle. Yeah. And it can, and I absolutely have been there. I've been in like, I've had long periods of my life, especially when I left that high control community where I was like, I don't trust anybody. It's going to get done wrong. It's going to be, there's a ulterior motive.
Like there was like this whole arc of hyperindependence as means of survival as a trauma response kind of deal. And so yeah, so especially I remember when I was like going through a really intense mental health issue, I have a panic disorder and so I was like, I'd never would let anyone see me have panic attacks because it was very much like this cannot be. This is something I go alone into a corner and I deal with it and I come out and I'm fresh.
I can't, I can't be out of control around other people, right? Because that feels exactly. That's totally, yeah. Yeah. And one of my partners was like, I was, this was a long time ago, it was like maybe nine years ago, one of my partners, I was starting to feel panic and I asked them to leave and they just sort of sat there and they're like, I don't, I wouldn't like how I feel for the rest of the night if I just walked out on you right now.
You know, like don't do that to me and push me away right now. It was so eye opening, it was so beautiful. And yeah, and I really realized how trying to do things all of my own, all of my own also prevented people from feeling close to me, prevented them from the ability to like feel how good it is to give.
And it kept me feeling really low capacity because I was just getting through it, trying to pull myself up, you know, out of the water into my own lifeboat, you know, it's like, this is so unnecessary and now I have less to give others as well. So that was a big turning point. Well, I want to celebrate your partner for like saying, not you need this, but like I need this.
Like this is actually for, to let me be here for you is actually for me because I would feel horrible about myself and about like us if I just left you. So it's like honoring that like that's what what she needed, you know, rather than making it about you. That was really beautiful.
But I just also want to name like what you're saying is I think what a lot of people feel that like receiving feels really vulnerable and can feel unsafe because how many times as someone given something to us and we've, and we've accepted it, but then there were strings that they did not communicate ahead of time.
There was some like they they gave some kind of gift whether it was their time or their energy or their money or there or an actual tangible object of some kind and then there was some expectation attached. And it can feel really terrible to be like, no, I didn't agree. And just like not give back. And it sounds like your past experience was that there were no gifts that were given that didn't have an expectation of control attached to them.
And so of course it was like, so how brave of you to be willing to go, okay, I'm going to trust this person. I'm going to trust their word and that this is really about them. And it's not that they're going to be expecting something back from me to be here for me in this moment like that's hard. Yeah. And I think it took the time that it took to be willing to trust. I think we got to still be, I'm still for people being self protective if they don't know a person well enough.
Okay. If they haven't, if you haven't seen them actually mean that yet, then that is a bit of a leap of faith. And so I'm very like consider your own risk reward when it comes to that. And I was willing to take that leap of faith because we had been together for the better part of a year, I think at that point. And that's when I was ready to let them into that space.
But what was cool about that is I only needed two or three relationships that I felt that level of willingness to be totally open with before it got easier everywhere. Because it's easier to be not okay in the most intimate of environments than it was kind of easier to be a version of not okay on a first date. That was my experience as well as I felt a little bit more insulated from other people fumbling it or other people having ulterior motives or passive aggressive, whatever, whatever.
Because I felt like at the end of the day there is this core of people that I can trust and so I got a little bit less hyperindependent in lower stakes situations. Well, and what I think there too is if you have enough people who you can trust, then when it goes poorly, it's not like, oh, I can't trust anyone. Like you still have all the data that like I can trust some people, but I can't trust everyone. Which is true.
And I think that's an important thing to like acknowledge is that receiving is a vulnerable act and there are some people you shouldn't receive from because they will use it to manipulate you or harm you or gain access to you in a way or feel entitled to access to you in a way that you didn't agree to or don't want.
Another thought that I'm having here though just as we're talking about receiving because I do think for a lot of people like learning to receive help is an important part of connecting to community and a lot of people do have that hyperindependence. Like I shouldn't need help, I shouldn't need anybody. And I think that shows up a lot with parenting actually. And there's even a fair amount of shaming around that.
Like if you do need help, if you do want extra support, you're not a good enough parent. But like on the flip side, you know, one thing that I remember that I ran into when I was part of a more inter-connected community was that there were some people who would just take a lot. Like that would just take a lot of space, take a lot of energy, take a lot of emotional processing. And so there were these imbalances that would show up where like some people would give a lot and not take a lot.
And then there would be some people who would take a lot and not give a lot. And I guess I'm wondering if you ever had that experience where there's someone in your space who is doing a lot of taking without an awareness of like how that's impacting the overall community capacity. Yeah, I mean, I think that has been my experience. That was an experience through so much of my life. I remember when I was like five or something, this girl that I had invited over to play Barbies.
Like she somehow talked me into giving her all of my Barbies. And she's like walking out the front door and my mom's like, excuse me. We're going with all of that. And she's like, oh no, she said I could take them.
And so like that I think is a very old thing that I've had good reason to internalize that people can be incredibly manipulative and self focused and exploitative, which is why I really keep an eye on like motives and incentives, you know, like and watching how a person behaves in their day to day life. You know, when I worked in a business that had like a sales component to it, there were sales people that I was like, I see you. I see you that you're very charming and charismatic.
And I will enjoy having a drink with you after work. But I don't trust you to be in community with me because I see you like kind of screwing over the person next to you so that you can get ahead. And so if a person operates that way in any area of their life, even if they haven't done it to me, I keep my guard a little up around them. And it's only so close. Well, but I'm I'm even thinking of people who like I definitely for sure, there are people who are like like I had this friend of mine.
I don't think it was conscious with her. I don't think she was like intentionally trying to screw people over. But like any time we would be somewhere, she would like be at the front of the line or she would be like, I got to make sure I get my needs met. I got to make sure I get mine. I want to make sure that I get enough food at the table or whatever have you, right? And one time where it was just so like I was so cognizant of it was that we were out a bunch of families.
We were all together with our kids. And I had little kids. She had little kids. And we were at the ice cream place. Once I'm standing there in line at the ice cream place and she kind of like we are all going there together and it was her idea to go. She goes right to the front of the line. She's got her kids with her. And then she's just standing there. She doesn't know what she wants. And she was like, hmm, I know.
And meanwhile, I'm staying there with like a baby and a two year old or maybe like I think they were maybe one and three. But I've got like two little little kids and I'm like, okay. I was like, could you like either like decide what you want or get out of the way because like I know what I want and also I'm dealing with like way younger kids here. And it was just it was just this really funny moment where I was like you just have no idea because you're so self focused. And I've been there too.
I'm an only child. So there are like it was also cringy for me because I can be that way like if I'm not watching it. Because I am very conscious and aware of what I want, what I don't want. And I have to be aware that like, oh, I'm not the only person in the room, you know.
And so I'm just even thinking about people who can show up to a space and just not necessarily be aware that it's a shared space and they'll just kind of take what they need but not recognize that that's a shared part of whatever and not recognize, oh, I need to put back into that. You know, that I have to keep this nice for everybody, not just take what I need from it.
And that's the thing that I ran into a lot in the polyamory community that I've been a part of is people like really willing to take what they need from it, but then not necessarily show up and put into it. And so like kind of the opposite of what we were just talking about, about like people who just can't receive, these are folks who are like, I'll get what I need. But like I don't understand the work that goes into like maintaining the shared space.
And I guess I'm wondering if you've printed that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really related. It's probably why the thought of the salespeople came to mind because in like we're kind of taught especially like I think depending on your in the US, depending on your class, depending on your race even like your taught to be a bit more like get yours like dog eat dog. I'm going to get paid, you know, I'm going to get mine.
And I think that's how that can show up in that like ice cream anecdote of just like, I need to get mine, you know, elbowing your way past your fellow person. And so that is antithetical to community. I don't I don't want to be with like kind of close with someone who's not at least curious as to why they do it. Like we can fall back into default programming. I was taught to be that way explicitly. My dad taught me like, oh, you're getting off the airport.
So here's how you care you're getting off the airplane. Here's how you can like basically shove your way to the front and not have to wait as long. He literally like tried to give me lessons as a child. And so this is something that I hear you in terms of like you spot it. You got it kind of like, oh, I see this and that's so cringy. And I want it. I think it matters what happens when you bring it to their attention.
And so if somebody does something like that, like when I was doing things like that in polyamory and just making sure that I got care from my partner. I don't care how it makes you other partner feel. You take care of me now, you know? Right. Well, and as that shows up all the time in polyamory, I think we're like, there are two people who have need or maybe more than two people who have need. And there's that pinch partner made me in the middle.
And like, there's this like tug of war happening rather than understanding, hey, like, this is an ecology. Like you getting your needs met benefits me. And my my need getting that benefits you. And also there's this additional person in the mix who also matters and like it's not just like a need for filling robot, you know, like they also and have needs and care that they might need.
And in those dynamics, sometimes you have that person in that in that middle spot, not receiving what they need, you know, not speaking out for their own need. And it's such a tough dynamic and like what I want to do sometimes with folks when I see them in that situation, you just kind of grab them and like change their head around so that I can help them see like this is an ecology. Like they're all connected here.
Is there a way you could make way for a moment just recognizing that your turn will come? Like maybe you're just not first in line right now because there's someone behind you who needs to be first right now. And it's not because they're more important. It's not because they're higher on the food chain. It's just like sometimes it's not your turn.
Yeah. I mean, and that's kind of why I pay attention to what someone does when it's named, you know, like, hey, are you aware of how that made me feel? Like, hey, what are you doing? Are they scared? They're like, but, but what if I don't get my needs met? It is it coming from a place of fear? I empathize with that. Can we redirect that to getting your needs met in a way that doesn't suck for other people? You know, but there definitely are people who are like, this feels good.
I don't care, you know, so I don't owe them anything. And so if they just double down, then I really keep my distance. For me, when it was named for me, like, hey, you know, early days, like 12 years ago, basically, I would like call or text a partner on a date because I'm struggling because they're on a date. And so I'm like, no, you need to as my partner and take care of me right now. And that was really strongly pushed back on. And I'm grateful for that.
And I was like, oh, oh, like it literally hadn't occurred to me because I had so much work to do still. And it didn't occur to me that like, it's not cool to try and get my needs met through force at someone else's expense. And can I instead be vulnerable and ask, hey, I need care, you know, how can I get care without hurting anyone in the process?
So it can be unlearned and redirected, but there needs to be that desire and that like earnest willingness to learn a different way of going about things. And you can't make somebody want to be different. So I really pay attention to you yet. Do they have curiosity and willingness to evolve? Yeah. Like you're naming for me like a reason why I exited part of a community that I was a part of. It's a funny story. I mean, it's not, it's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time.
So I was part of this parent group. There were like seven different families. Maybe there were eight. I don't know, but there were, we were all families. We all were parents. We all had young kids. So you know, anywhere from mine, we're some of the youngest, but anywhere from like one years old to like 10 years old, like that range. And we, it was really beautiful. Like I had so much hope for this community because we were all setting up play date like once a week.
Every Sunday basically we'd go to someone's house. We'd all bring our kids. Someone would either cook dinner or order food and we'd all just hang out and eat and our kids would play together. And you think that would be really beautiful, right? And we did like an Easter egg hunt together. Like somebody organized out of their house and just had all the kids out there like Easter I got in their backyard. And I just like, oh my god, this is it. Like this is the dream.
Like we built this beautiful polyculum. We're all connected. We're all doing such together. But then what happened was the parents who had like slightly older kids who were slightly more independent would just let their kids run around and wouldn't like do any of that. Like they wouldn't like check to make sure they were behaving, you know, and wouldn't kind of do anything to kind of prevent their play, which might be a little refer.
From harming or bumping up against like the little or kids who were like still figuring out how to like block or figuring out how to like navigate through in a more basic way. And so those of us who had younger kids, we were kind of hovering with our kids more or we'd have to trade off like with Drew and I we'd have to trade off who is going to kind of hover with the kids and who get to socialize with the grownups.
And at one point I was kind of talking to some other parents with kids on the younger side now because it's okay to print me that like we're the ones always hovering near our younger kids. The older kids just kind of run wild and they do whatever they want. And like sometimes they're doing stuff that we actually have to parent them too. Like we have them behave like, you know, that's not cool or don't hit or like watch out for this younger one.
And so what and so I brought this up and I brought it up and like what I thought was a pretty gentle way, which I said, hey, like I just want to name like, you know, as the parent of some of the younger kids like where I'm mostly I don't get to get as much as the social time as some of y'all who have older kids. And would some of y'all be willing to hang out with me while I'm like monitoring my kids and your kids.
And I didn't do it in a shaming way and I didn't do it in a, hey, you need to take a turn even though one of my friends and I we had talked about like having like a sign up sheet and having people like take shifts, you know, so that it felt more fair. But I was like, you know, I'm okay. Just like like a group of parents just decided to hang out with me while I was kind of also with kids.
And so I just made the request and we were on a slack group where we were all communicating with it in the slack chat and the whole group got one. Nobody said anything. And then later back channel, I got a message from one of the other parents who also had a younger kid. And she said, Libby, why don't you have to do that? Why don't you have to bring that up? Why don't you have to stir shit? What? And I was like, yeah, I know. And I internalized it too. I was like, oh, what did I do?
Oh, my God. Did I do something wrong? But like, you know, in retrospect now I'm able to say, I wasn't shaming anybody. I wasn't being demanding. I was just saying, hey, like this is a way that this isn't working for me. And I have some help. You know, and the response was, how dare you? Wow. How dare you ruin our good time? We're having such a great time. Just chilling and drinking and whatever in our adult space. And now you're asking us to do something different.
And I was just like, now maybe they read into it. You know, I mean, I guess that must have been part of what happened. But they read into it like they read into shaming or they read into the fact that I was disgruntled about it or whatever. Because I was, you know, but like there was like no compassion and nothing changed. And then that was sort of the beginning of the end of my connection with that group was because, you know, I would be the person to be like, hey, like, this doesn't feel fair.
And I would just like this to feel more like so that I can enjoy it as much as you're enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. It's such a reveal of character when like you present, hey, I'm kind of hurting. And someone's like, well, how dare you ask me to do something different? You know, it's, it's not possible. I think if that's somebody's mentality and they're like, again, I'm going to get mine doubling down. Yeah. Then that's good to know, you know?
It's not always an option of who is in our proximity, right? Like, but if there is the option to choose who we, you know, organize things with, I try to really, yeah, keep an eye on that and keep an eye on like, do they care when something they do or don't do is hurting someone, you know, that that's a foundational need if we're going to give and receive and have a network of care, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how can this work for everybody?
And then if there's a class, which I mean, I get it. Like, I get the class there. Like, the class was like, why don't I hang around with Mike? This is like the time that I get a break from my kids. Of course, I don't want to do more of that right now. Like, I get that part, but then it's their way that we could like talk about it, you know, and like share both sides with the equation so that like everybody feels like they matter.
Instead of it just being like, like, I was saying, like, how dare you like even bring this up? Like, how dare you rock the boat here? This is so great. Why would you want to shake this up? Well, I was like, well, it's great for you, but I feel so unequal in it. You know? And yeah, I mean, so again, kind of going back to that ecological mentality of like everybody matters.
And, you know, I don't think that like me leaving ruined the group, but I have noticed kind of observing from afar that that group is slowly disintegrated. Yeah. I mean, if a group is functioning or a molecule or anything is functioning because of like somebody being subjugated, basically like if you were taking on the brunt of that work and that allowed them to not have to work ever in that space, you removing yourself because you're like, this sucks, which is fair and good.
And I'm glad you're taking care of yourself. That will make it fall apart because somebody's got to do it, right? Well, it wasn't just me. There were a lot of other people who were in that bucket. Like, there was really a clear divide. Like, they were like the parents of the younger kids and they were like four of us where we really had to hover. And you know, sometimes we would trade off with each other. I'd be like, okay, I'll hover.
You can go, you know, I would even say to like somebody, like not myself, but like just like I'll hover and I'll hover. I'll watch your kid too. But the parents of the older kids just wouldn't, wouldn't pitch in. But yeah, like it, that was a tough time. That was a tough time. And I do think though that because that was the overall, like there was, there was lip service paid to where all in this together.
But then when Robert was sitting in the road, there were a lot of people in that group who were like, yeah, only when it works for me. Or we end up together.
And the thing is I think that that because we're coming from this individualistic culture and with a lot of individualistic structures, it's, there is some serious unlearning that has to happen in order for us to make these communities really work in a, in a functional, in the way that we want them to without it overrelying on some people who are more givers and some people who are more takers. And again, I don't want to just frame it like that because again, like I'm an only child.
Like I, I do know how to get mine, so to speak, but I've tried to unlearn that within myself so that I am like thinking more holistically. I don't know. Do you have any tools for people who are like, I want to build community? I want to get out of my individualistic mindset. How do, like if I was wanting to present those to people who are like wanting to unlearn that and build community, like where would you say that would start? I would start with challenging binary thinking.
And by that, I mean like, it can be so like what you're describing with what happened to you. You say, hey, can I get this need met? And then seeing like that as, well, if you get this met, then I am now burdened. So therefore, no, there's two options, either you get eye lose or you lose. Exactly. And like that's not how it has to be, you know, but so often especially in high stress situations, if they are also burned out and they're like, I can't possibly imagine giving more.
I'm already stressed. Okay, let's factor that into the brainstorm. Can this please be a brainstorm, not a yes, no, you know, configuration? And yeah, so I see people really isolate and alienating each other. And I've been guilty of this in the past could easily fall back into it if I'm having like a bad season of time where it's like, oh no, no, no, don't ask me to change. I can't, I'm barely holding it together. This is generous giving benefit of the doubt that that's the motivation.
So just saying like, no, if you get something, that means it's a zero sum game, that means I lose something. And so this idea, this attitude of all or nothing, your success means my failure. That is going to keep us separated. So I just say to people, like if you notice that, just notice it, just flag it, just observe it. Like, when do you notice it? You know, is it, you know, not an issue if you're figuring out something small that doesn't matter, like figuring out where to go to dinner?
You want to stay in and eat, they want to go out to eat. Okay, I mean, could we cook something? Is there a third or a fourth or a fifth answer, right? Like, it's, it's often easier and more accessible to brainstorm when it doesn't have big stakes. But if it's like, well, I want to go on this date with someone, well, I'm having a panic attack, you know, okay, you know, can I love on you before the date? Like, who in your support network can you text tonight?
Like, can I brainstorm with you on how you get care? Can I agree on after my date, how I can love on you, what you want to know, what you don't? Like, there's so much complexity that it doesn't have to be either you stay home and take care of me or you abandon me and go on the date, right? But when you're stressed, it seems like there's two answers.
I get mine or you get yours, you know, and, and so that is really us versus each other, which is the opposite of coming together as a team, us versus the stressors, us versus the problems. Yeah, I love that you named it when we're stressed, we're more likely to see it that way. And I think that's so true because we're more in our survival brain, right? We're in the brain that says, either I win or you win.
And I need to either win or I need to like protect myself from losing, you know, is kind of how I frame it. Either I'm going to fight or I'm going to run away and shut down and close off. Either one is basically a, I need to protect myself from you versus like, like you said, kind of us versus the problem. Like you have to be in a different brain state to get to that place, I think, a lot of the time.
And if you're not noticing, like you said, not able to notice and observe yourself in that stress state, then you can just kind of get locked in there, I think. And then the other piece that I heard you say that I would just kind of amplify is like recognizing when there's a perception of scarcity because sometimes scarcity is like real, you know, like there actually is only so much time in a day. Or in the case of like this, you know, this parenting thing that I was a part of.
You know, there was a scarcity amount of time to socialize while your kids are playing with other kids. Like that was a scare three starts of one day a week. And it was so many hours in that day and of course, like it makes sense that you'd want as much of it as you could get. And when you are going and being in the kitty room or whatever it is, like, yeah, you're getting less. It's real. But when you think about it, but are there ways to think about it that more expansively?
Like maybe I could get something out of doing this with other parents there. Like maybe it wouldn't feel so such a bummer if there were more parents kind of hanging out in that space with me. Or maybe I could get parenting to it. So you know, like how could we make it feel like instead of this scarce resource where people are just trying to get what they can get? And if they don't get it, then they lose to how can we expand this?
How can we make this more expansive so that it's not like either I leave you like you were using that example and abandon you? But like how can I show you that I have an expansive amount of care to offer? But it's not just tied to this either I leave you and I don't care or I stay and I'm plugging out on my other partner. Yeah, I mean, I think it can help to understand the reason like what is the worst case scenario?
You know, if somebody in my example is saying like I'm panicked, I need support. My best idea is I get that from you and you don't go on the day and you take care of me on it. Okay. Well, if the underlying what's under the request? Okay. So that's the request. That might be an explicit yes, no. But it doesn't have to mean that you still don't get the need met. You know, so what is the need? You need support. You want companionship. You want reassurances. You want relaxation, right?
Okay. Can we think about all of the different shapes that could take? You know, and I think in the long run, like can we zoom out and see it as an ebb and flow of, you know, time and resources and energy in that some days we are a bit more tired. So we're having a bit more and that that and with agreements, even out where we will get our need met tomorrow or next week or we take turns doing the thing, you know, or and yeah, just not really seeing it as such an emergency.
This has to be this way, right? I think most people who wind up doing controlling things or behaving in really selfish ways. Of course, there are people who are just at their core, incapable of seeing other people, you know, but I think most of the time what I see is people not trusting that they will have all their needs met at all. I don't trust that I'm going to be okay if I accommodate you.
And so, so I'm not going to rather than I wonder how I could get my need met in a way that you also get yours, you know, on average long term. And so yeah, that willingness to collaborate. Well, in another part in there too, I think of being proactive, like of course in the moment when you're having a panic attack and you weren't expecting it, it does feel in your body like an emergency.
But when I think about, I mean, what I advise my clients to do often is instead of waiting for the moment and just hoping it goes okay, like be proactive, like how could I think ahead? Okay, last time this is what happened and this was hard, would we proactively create a scenario where this could go better? You know, and and and then I'm not like grasping at a request and then the request is like this high state, either I get it or I don't.
But instead we can be in that collaborative problem solving place and when it doesn't feel like an emergency, when we have access to the part of our brain that's able to go, hmm, I can see my side and I can see your side and I can see the other person side and
I can see the group need and I can see all of it because I have more of my brain structures that are capable of integrating complexity on board and then you've been calculated yourself against those feelings of emergency that are happening in the moment.
Yeah, and I think another aspect of this, especially in terms of polyamory, is that if the feeling of scarcity we're having is related to a person, that person is not just a benign resource, you know, like it's not quote unquote fair for me to get 50% of their time and for the other person to get 50% of their time.
That takes away the person in the middle's ability to decide what they want to do and maybe they only want to spend 10% of their time with you and that hurts because you're not on the same page.
But, you know, a lot of times people will confuse just as a equality or balance with getting the same stuff, but if the stuff is a person, you know, like that's not don't take away their choice in the matter, you know, and so like, and on the inverse as well, you know, I had an experience where I was having a really hard time and a partner decided to not go on a date. Like that was their decision and I really struggled with that because I'm like, no, I don't want to control you.
I don't want to tell you to do that. You know, they were, you know, my dad had just died and they were a primary emotional support for me and they could kind of take it or leave it with this date, you know, they're like, independent of me. And so I was really struggling because my, my res, reserves were so low from dealing with everything else that I was like, oh, this stress, oh my God, what am I going to do? And they were like, okay, I'm just not going to go.
I don't want to as your support person now add to the things that we're coping with if I could take it or leave it. And so that also in the spirit of like receiving care, I had to let go of like this idea that I had the power to make my partner do anything. Like, no, they decided. Right.
Well, and that's that to kind of loop back to your earlier example of that time when your partner said, like, I don't want to leave you under these circumstances, understanding like when when you're perceiving a person as a resource, whether as a person, not recognizing that they have their own needs and their own desires and their own priorities and their own values.
And if they're choosing to let go of one thing in favor of another thing that may not have anything to do with either of those people or those things or what they've said or what they've demanded or whatever, it's probably hopefully more internal to the person in what's important to them. And so that's not they probably need to do some inner work about figuring out what is important to them.
Like I'm even thinking about like the way that my partnership works with my spouse where like he really understands that like me being able to like right now I'm doing this recording from in DC where my long distance partner lives and like leaving my husband home with his with the R2 kids for four days. And you know, he's not resentful of that. He's not burdened by that. He recognizes like me getting time with this partner is nourishing for me and I am part of his well being too.
And so me being well nourished and getting the connection needs that I have with this partner met, support him, our kids, our other partner, my mom, like it's all connected. And so it's not zero-sem at all. And in fact, if I allowed myself to get overly depleted by our kids and I get short tempered, I don't sleep as well. And like so it's like recognizing, oh, like it's not them or me. It's we all matter. We'll be each other.
Yeah. And I think that's a great example of like can we look at the overall picture is everybody getting their needs met. And that if your spouse agrees, I'll do a little bit more of the heavy lifting this weekend. Please go have fun. I want that for you. That's beautiful. And I imagine it's also rooted in trust that that's not going to be everyday imbalance and that. Right. Yeah. When there's need on that end that you'll step up, you know, like exactly. Like we take turns. Absolutely.
We take turns. And like I think that that's the other element in there that I guess that would be important in creating community and being able to share the load and take turns is that knowledge that trust it. Okay. If I give here, it's not going to be all the time. Like I'm not always going to be the one giving in. I'm always going to be on me to be flexing. There are going to be times that other people flex for me. And I have to be a willing to allow that.
You know, like going back to the like I have to be willing to allow my turns to happen so that I don't grow resentful or so that I don't create this power dynamic where I'm always giving and other people are always getting. And that kind of thing. So I feel like we've come full circle now. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to just like zap the conversation, I think, from here. But before I go, I would love for you to just tell people how to find you.
And if they want more of your work or if they're like inspired and they want to work with you, like how can they connect? Sure. Well, I'm Jenna Viv King. I go by at Chille Polyamory on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube. TikTok and Instagram are where I do short form videos and resources. I do video essays on YouTube. I also do long form video essays on polyamory and share my personal stories and do live chats on patreon.com, chille polyamory. So you get a lot of bonus goodies.
And yeah, if you want to chat one on one, I'm available for video calls and email pen pals. You can learn more at chille polyamory.com. Awesome. Well, Jenna Viv, thanks so much for sharing this time with me and having this. Thanks for coming with me. Thanks for having me on this basis. Yeah. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you have any thoughts about what I've said today or a question for the show, I'd love to hear from you.
You can find me on Instagram as that polyam mom or you can go to the show's website making polyamorywork.com and submit a question there. I'll also say that if you're loving my podcasts, but you are looking for more support, I do this for a living. I am an integrated relationship guide. So I help individuals, couples and groups have amazing relationships. You can find out more about my offerings on my website.
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