Tandem feeding

breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard, will look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Welcome to this episode on tandem feeding and tandem weaning. So in this episode, we're going to talk about feeding more than one child at once. That includes providing nutrition for a baby who's in your womb while you're feeding a

child on the outside. We'll talk about feeding and pregnancy, and what that's like and how it works. We'll also talk about the decision to continue breastfeeding through your pregnancy and beyond after baby's born. How do you make the decision about whether to feed both of them after birth? If you aren't sure. And then what happens later, when you want to win the older child while you still have a baby feeding? How

does that work? Is it even possible to win an older child while a baby's still feeding? Spoiler alert? Yes, it is. When you are pregnant, and you're breastfeeding, you will have a flurry of emotions, you may have possibly received that positive pregnancy test a little bit more quickly than you were expecting. And you may be surprised at the emotions that strike you. So often you've got that sense of relief and sense of happiness.

But quite often a feeling of guilt comes along quite soon after, you may be feeling guilty about the impact this is going to have on your other child's life, you may be immediately worried about a loss of milk supply, which is a common experience for many, we'll talk about that a bit more in a minute. And you may have this really strong empathy for your child as to how their life is going to change. You might be worried that your relationship with your child is going to

change forever. What often happens is that parents get the positive pregnancy test result and then very quickly start thinking about the birth itself. Those hours of birth, that moment of separation, who's going to be with your child? How are they going to feel being away from you? How are you going to introduce them to the new baby, what's going to happen if you have to go to hospital what's going to happen if you

have to stay in hospital. And we focus on those days and those hours because it's a sort of symbol of the whole picture. We can't be there for our child and exactly the same way, we're going to have to separate from them slightly, our relationship with them is going to be different other people are going to have to meet their needs.

This is going to be tough. You know, by continuing to breastfeed your toddler, you've already been up against it in terms of what most modern cultures find comfortable and acceptable. And now you're ticking another box for yet another misunderstood area of breastfeeding because there are so many myths around

breastfeeding and pregnancy. You may be told that your pregnancy is at risk, you may be told that you will be affecting the growth of your baby by taking away their nutrition, you may be told that you are using up the milk that the baby will need once they are born. If you're still breastfeeding. It's so easy for all these myths to start dribbling out of people's mouths, when the concept of breastfeeding a toddler in the first place was already poorly

understood. Even those people who think they're being supportive and expressing the very mildest level of concern, the ones that say things like, Oh, you're going to be so tired if you breastfeed, and while you're pregnant. There's this underlying assumption of why are you bothering to do this? Why would anyone bother to breastfeed a toddler in the first place? And now surely you want to give up now you're pregnant? You've almost got this

excuse to give up. Now. Why would you bother to continue breastfeeding while you're pregnant? You're being forced to justify yourself at a moment, you're already feeling vulnerable. You've already got hormones flying around, you may not be feeling in your strongest state. So let's take a little bit of time to look at what some of the research says about breastfeeding and pregnancy safety. And we've got some different studies that we can

look at. We've got a study from 2012 that looked at 320 women in Iran some breastfed during their pregnancy, and some didn't. The results found no significant difference in full term or non full term birth rates ie breastfeeding during pregnancy didn't cause prematurity. We also didn't find significant difference in newborn birth weight between the two groups. So breastfeeding during pregnancy did not take nutrition away from the baby or impact on

baby's growth. Another study of 57 Californian women from 1993, just under half continued breastfeed through pregnancy and after the new baby arrived and new babies were healthy and appropriately sized. We've got some other studies where things are a little bit more complex.

So another research study in Peru and 2002 looked at 133 women, and they did find a link there between breastfeeding and pregnancy and a slightly reduced birth weight for the new baby, and a slightly reduced weight gain for the new baby in the first month and the first month. On average, there was 125 grammes less weight gain for the new baby if the mom had continued to breastfeed. Another study looked at women in Egypt

in 2015. That study looked at 540 Women in Egypt, but they were described as having substandard nutrition. And again, there was a slight issue around infant growth not being as optimum if those moms have continued to breastfeed and also an issue with maternal anaemia. But in both of these studies, there was no increase in miscarriage risk when the women

breastfed through pregnancy. So it does seem that if parental nutritional levels are a problem, and parental iron levels aren't ideal, there might be a very slightly elevated risk of infant growth in that first month. That's as far as we can go. When we talk about breastfeeding and pregnancy and risk, of course, there's another way to look at the situation.

The American Academy of Family Physicians states, let's think about the risk to the child if they're younger than two years, and we have to win them because of pregnancy. Breastfeeding the nursing child during pregnancy and after delivery of the next child helps provide a smooth transition psychologically, for the older child. That's a phrase used by the American Academy of Family Physicians. So so often we're talking about infant feeding, we need to reverse our

language. You know, perhaps we should be thinking in terms of the risk of ending breastfeeding earlier than was planned or the potential risks the older child are not continuing to breastfeed. That's not to say that parental choice isn't always top of the agenda. But there is a risk to that older child if we end breastfeeding, for what reason, especially if it's not based on evidence, or any scientific concern, breastfeeding continues to offer significant nutritional and

immunological benefits. This is a language from the American Academy of Family Physicians. And if somebody's parent falls pregnant, when they're only eight months old, and somebody wins in pregnancy with potentially depriving that child of half of their breastfeeding duration. Let's not do that unless we really need to do that. Things are possibly a little bit different if you get pregnant very early on. So when your baby is completely

dependent on your milk. So if you've got a baby that's under six months old, when you get pregnant, there is possibly one study that we need to pay attention about. It's not great. So Molitoris in 2019. This is a study that looked at 11,000 pregnancies, and they did find a slightly increased risk of miscarriage when a baby was extremely young and fully dependent on milk for the source

of nutrition. But this study was based on historical interviews with parents sometimes for more than a decade ago rather than current medicals observation. And this study did not eliminate other variables and did not distinguish between high and low risk pregnancies. So this is the study that is the most scary and actually when we really dig deep into it, it is not scary. It is especially not scary for people who are feeding older children.

So Hillary Flower, Hillary Flower is the go to person on the subject of breastfeeding during pregnancy. Her book, adventures in tandem nursing really is the Bible on this subject. And she's looked at this area of miscarriage and pregnancy in detail, and she's looked at this area of breastfeeding, triggering contractions or early labour. Now we need oxytocin to trigger a milk ejection reflex. That's the letdown reflex that happens in breastfeeding that lets the

milk flow. And yes, this is also the hormone that triggers uterine contractions. But that does not mean that breastfeeding in pregnancy triggers risky contractions because we've got several safeguards in place. So we need hormone receptor sites to exist before hormones get acted on by the uterus. And the hormone receptor sites in the uterus remains small in number until around 38 weeks. There are oxytocin blockers in place during pregnancy, so progesterone act as a blocker.

There are also proteins missing, which would act as special agents to help the oxytocin do its job. So, flower is really sharing with us that oxytocin can carry on doing its breastfeeding job. While the baby remains protected in the tourists. And if you want to read a bit more about this 2019 study, go to the La Leche League International website. Hillary flower co wrote an article with Gemma Lopez. And she says yes,

it can be disconcerting. I know to see the words breastfeeding and miscarriage and risk all together. But I believe there is no cause for concern. There is no cause for alarm, she said. And if if she is someone who says that I'm going to be believe Hillary flower, she says perhaps there is a reason to be concerned if a parent is exclusively breastfeeding and the child has not yet started

solids. But even then, this study leaves open the possibility that that risk is dependent on their nutritional status, and maybe where they haven't whether they have another high risk factor or another pregnancy complication that was not controlled for in this study. The truth is, throughout history, women have been breastfeeding older babies and having sex and getting pregnant. And this is what evolution has been doing for

1000s and 1000s of years. So Dr. Leslie Regan, who leads the miscarriage clinic at St. Mary's Hospital in London, that is the largest referral unit in Europe. She's the author of a book miscarriage where every woman needs to know. She says once a pregnancy is clinically detectable, breastfeeding should pose no added risk of pregnancy loss. There isn't any data suggesting a link between breastfeeding and miscarriage. And I see no plausible reason

for that to be a link. Now she did state that prior to the monetarist study, but not putting words in Dr. Reagan's mouth, I'm pretty sure she would be sharing Hillary Flower's thoughts on that study. There were not other high risk factors being controlled for and we think about the history of pregnancy testing. Today, we know we're pregnant days after conception, but for generations,

it was based on guesswork. You know, people were looking at the urine they were giving rabbits their urine and examining the rabbits ovaries and looking for

changes. A tonnes of breastfeeding parents couldn't even rely on whether they'd missed a period because their periods were only just settling in or they may not have been frequently and enough to be regular breasts breastfeeding during pregnancy has been the norm for the vast majority of human history and it is still the norm in large parts of the world. Big Italian led review of all the evidence from 2014 in Bangladesh in the late 1970s.

More than 50% of breastfeeding women who became pregnant continue to breastfeed beyond the six months of pregnancy. In Egypt 25% of women attending antenatal care conceive while breastfeeding in Guatemala. 50% of pregnancies overlapped with breastfeeding. In India, about 70% of mothers from poor urban and rural groups still nursing when they become pregnant. Now there may be some times when breastfeeding during pregnancy

does need further discussion. So the American Pregnancy Association states while breastfeeding during pregnancy is generally considered safe there are some cases where weaning may be advisable so if you have a high risk pregnancy, or you are at risk for preterm labour, if you are carrying twins, if you have been advised to avoid sex while pregnant, if you are having bleeding or uterine pain, and that's the

statement from 2017. However, advisable is still precautionary, and every individual situation is assessed separately with a parent talking to a health professional and health professionals and families making decisions together. Now, it may be that scientific evidence suggests that breastfeeding during pregnancy is normal and safe, doesn't mean that everyone does it. So even if your child is under 12 months, it may be that you're not able to continue only giving them breast milk as their

only source of milk. If they're under 12 months, and at the moment breast milk is still a significant portion of their nutritional intake, it's possible that you may need to give an alternative source of milk doesn't mean that breastfeeding has to be ended. But it's something that you may need to be considering because milk supply and pregnancy can reduce quickly. And it can be unexpected. And that can be really upsetting if you're someone who's a passionate

advocate of breastfeeding. You know, if it's really something that is the core of how you're parenting your child, it can be very tough if your milk supplies hit hard during pregnancy, especially if your nursing was dependent nutritionally on your milk. It may be that you can get away with an increase in solids

and offering water to drink. But sometimes, if a baby's may be only eight, nine months old, and milk supply drops in the first few weeks of pregnancy, you may be moving to formula for the first time in a way you really weren't expecting might be you're able to get access to human donor milk. At 12 months, you can be offering full fat cow's milk, but not under 12 months because the micronutrient

content is not appropriate. And the protein load on young kidneys that comes from processing for that cows milk is a problem. Most people who are breastfeeding when they're pregnant do notice a decrease in milk supply. And it's often a very significant one. So most sources state that around 70% of parents will notice a supply drop. And that can start really early in the first few weeks. In fact, for some people, it's, it's their first sign that

they're pregnant. Whatever you do, whatever happens to you, your body is going to be resetting in its lactation story, you are going to go back to making colostrum during your pregnancy. And that usually happens for most people around week 16. Milk supply seems to vary for different people at different times. So some people go through a period of feeling like they have virtually nothing, and that their child is

dry nursing. And then colostrum appears around 16 weeks, and quantities seem to increase again. In one study quoted by Hillary Flower, about 18% of people felt that they dried up completely for some stages of their pregnancy. Some people may not notice a significant drop in volume at all. And then colostrum comes along and they barely notice that either there doesn't seem to be any variation at all, and we don't know why it affects some people more than

other people. And nurse Ling's will behave differently to so some will self wean, when the quantity start to drop. Some will self when when colostrum comes along. So colostrum has a lower lactose level. Lactose is the sugar in human milk. Some older nurse links describe colostrum as tasting like crisps and being a bit saltier, and some are not up for that and they may self weaned at that stage. Some care not a jot that changes are happening. They don't care about the colostrum

coming along. They don't care about the quantities, reducing the carry on breastfeeding whatever's coming out, or even if nothing's coming out. Quick word of warning. Colostrum does have a laxative effect. So that's very handy if you're a newborn because it helps you pass your meconium but if you're potty training a toddler, you might get a little bit of a shock so be prepared for that. Progesterone production increases in pregnancy as the

breast tissue develops. So it's got an important job to do when it comes to breast development. It does various jobs in pregnancy. One of the jobs progesterone does is inhibit lactation. Hilary Flower says that progesterone appears to make the milk storage areas leaky. We know that oestrogen and progesterone inhibit the stimulatory effects of prolactin that's well established. It's one reason that hormonal contraception can reduce milk production for some people

postpartum. It's one of the reasons that we don't start the combined contraceptive pill really early on. It's not a huge shock that these hormones are going to impact on milk production. Prolactin is still being made in pregnancy, but there are processes that stop it doing its job. And it seems to be that progesterone particularly interferes with prolactin binding to the receptors in the cell. As I said that reduction in milk supply can be really upsetting for some

parents. And it may come at a time when you're already got really mixed feelings about other child's life changing and you know, you may already be dealing with those feelings of guilt. You might be worried, you know, even though your logical brain knows that you're giving them a sibling, there's another part of your brain that may be struck by feelings of guilt or worried about your child and, and that loss of milk feels like something else you're depriving

them off. Now, often on Facebook, I come across posts from pregnant parents saying, Oh, I've noticed a reduction in my milk supply during pregnancy. I don't want that. I want to stop that happening. Or even I've just found out I'm pregnant. I know some people have a reduction in milk supply. What can I do to stop that from happening? Truthfully, you really can't. These are hormonal drivers that mean milk

production reduces. And there's nothing you can do to stop those those hormones being produced. All the usual recommendations are not relevant, you should not be pumping to try and increase your milk supply. If it's about progesterone interfering with milk storage areas, and milk storage areas being more leaky, or pumping is not not gonna make a blind bit of difference. Lots of the herbs that are used as galactagogue are not recommended

in pregnancy. So fenugreek for example, probably the most commonly used herbal galactagogue is a uterine stimulant and medicinal doses. Let's not muck around with this in pregnancy, feeding more frequently is not going to help. You're not going to be able to counteract these pregnancy hormones, they have a powerful job to do. Most of the Galactic dogs are thought to increase oxytocin and prolactin but your problem in pregnancy is not low

levels of prolactin. Your problem is the way other hormones are interacting with those levels of prolactin. So really the message we want to give to pregnant parents is that I know you may be worried about your supply decreasing. I know you may be desperately searching for reassurance that your supply won't decrease. But honestly, it's very likely it will and you will be okay. And your nursing will be okay. Because breastfeeding is not just about milk There's so much more to it

than that. And even if your milk does change, that doesn't mean that there's going to be an end to breastfeeding relationship. If nutrition and milk intake is particularly a concern, if you really don't want to introduce a bottle if your child rejects bottles, one option possibly is using a supplementary feeding system or supplementary nutritional system at the

breast. So that's a tube feeding system, a lactation consultant can help you get that set up, you might have the baby attached at your breasts just as they have been normally, and they can receive other milk through a lightweight tube. Many nurslings will happily continue breastfeeding, even when the nutritional needs are not being met at the breast. So even when they're dry nursing, so no milk is being transferred nurse things will often happily remain

attached. And the breast still very much continues to be their home. You know, it's where they get comfort and coregulation and reassurance and relaxation, that absolutely can still happen. Now other than supply reduction, there are some other symptoms that parents notice. So sore nipples are often an issue. This appears to be about hormonal sensitivity, similar to what some people experience during

the menstrual cycle. You might also have breast sensitivity because there are hormonal changes, you might also experience a version. And sometimes if a parent struggling with severe and persistent nausea during pregnancy, a version might particularly be a problem. It's tough. I'm not saying that once nipple sensitivity starts, you're stuck like that forever. Some people find that nipple sensitivity is worse in the first trimester and maybe eases after that. Some people have a version at certain

times and not other times. So you're not necessarily stuck with that forever. It's very rare for a version to continue in the same form once you've given birth, and it's very rare for that nipple sensitivity to continue once you've given birth. Once the baby is here, you're entering a new phase of tandem feeding. By the way, try and and feeding great word is feeding three children at the same time.

So that might include a family with a set of twins, where you might have a newborn and a toddler and a slightly older child as well. You can also find families online describing their quad andum journeys another great word. How does breastfeeding work when there is a newborn and a toddler. So when you're breastfeeding during pregnancy? No, you can't use up the colostrum. But once baby's born, we do need to pay a bit of attention to the fact that we do have a limited amount of

colostrum. And volumes are smaller, and we do need the newborn to have that first access before the older child then comes along and does useful things like providing additional stimulation to the newly developing milk supply. But in those first few days, while we're just dealing with colostrum, we do need to really ideally have the new baby going first and use that language of having the first term. Usually, that milk is coming in at some point between day to day five.

And that's when we say milk coming in. That's the phrase we use to describe colostrum transitioning to mature milk, then we can start to make decisions based on things like the newborns, nappies, what's happening? Is the newborn nappy poo getting pale? What's the level of urination? Like how heavy are those nappies? What does that first weigh in on day five? Tell us how are we getting on? What was the weight loss

like? And usually, once things are going well, we can be a bit more flexible about newborn baby needing to go first. How about restricting a baby to one breast and a toddler to the other breast? Not a good idea. I have not met a lactation consultant who thinks this is a sensible idea. We want the newborn to have the option of both breasts and to be able to flexibly feed on both breasts. And we want them to have that option throughout their breastfeeding

experience. If you restrict a toddler to one side, and you hear all sorts of nonsense, like, Oh, if you restrict them to one side, that side will be their antibodies and the baby will get antibodies on their side know when you're producing antibodies in your milk. It's in both sides at the same time. We don't want to tailor make the toddler breast and the tailor make the newborn breast let's just have the newborn getting

access to both. Because if we restrict a total to one side, that's going to mean over time that their breast reduces in volume. It starts to produce weaning milk, which is what we call milk once the body reduces volume below a certain threshold, the milk starts to drop in lactose levels and have a slightly different composition and eventually milk will dry up. We want the newborn to be able to continue its breastfeeding journey on both sides of the

breast. Plus also when we swap sides regularly, that means that the newborn gets symmetrical visual stimulation. Rather than having one I effectively blinkered for a significant portion of the day also means that the baby has options. If one breast develops mastitis or gets painful or you have nipple damage. They've got the ability to go to the other side.

Toddlers feeding after newborns are very effective at helping a milk supply to develop in fact you're more likely to tip into oversupply, then you are to run out of milk. I hope you know that milk production is a supply and demand basis, you remove more milk, you make more milk tanned and feeding does not mean

baby gets less. As I said before we looked at those other studies, if the adult parents nutritional status is in a good place, if iron levels are good, we really don't have any concerns about baby's growth in those first few weeks or months. Toddlers are also super useful at relieving and gorge mint in those early days postpartum.

This is one of the main advantages of tandem feeding, and anyone who's experienced under feeding will tell you does the toddler feel jealous of the baby having their milk, I have yet to meet a parent who feels that has been a significant problem. And I have spoken to hundreds of tandem feeding parents over the last decade or so. Most parents feel that it helps in the arrival of a new member of the family if the toddler is turned on feeding.

Okay, so let's imagine that you're pregnant and you are thinking about whether to continue breastfeeding. Should you wait now? How do you know if tandem feeding after birth is right for you? So I would suggest that you start by looking at the decision another way. Forget about being pregnant? Do you want to continue breastfeeding this child? Do not make a decision based on a hypothetical just yet. If you weren't pregnant, would you be looking to stop and to practice parent led weaning

with this child? Don't imagine that breastfeeding a toddler makes life with to harder. It honestly does not tell you what is hard. It is hard breastfeeding a toddler who has only ever experienced responsive feeding and has never been asked to wait uses the breast to meet all their emotional needs can only fall asleep on the breast uses the breast to transition between all their sleep cycles. That is a hard scenario to

combine with a newborn. If that is your world, you might want to put some boundaries in place in pregnancy, you might want to introduce some new co regulation methods and some new connection methods and some other ways to offer sleep support. But that is not the same thing as weaning completely, it really isn't. In fact, having the option of breastfeeding a toddler up your sleeve when you are caring for

two is an advantage. And almost everyone I've spoken to who has chosen tandem feeding after birth is incredibly grateful that they have caring for a newborn and another child is hard. That is the aspect that is hard. It is not tandem feeding that is hard. It is tandem parenting. Removing an amazing tool and I'm talking about breastfeeding may not be sensible. If it's based on a theory that isn't logical. Or it's because someone told you

you should be waning. What does your gut say, if you are breastfeeding your toddler, everyone benefits from the regular doses of oxytocin. So that's the hormone which is known to aid relationship building and bonding. Toddlers are likely to need some extra support at this time in their lives. And breastfeeding is there for them. The thing that's always provided them comfort and reassurance they've got it there

for them. Imagine if you had a drug that you could legally give your toddler that had no side effects was free, help them to feel calm and bonded once baby had arrived, you'd have to be really certain that you wanted to give that up. If you have that option of breastfeeding, you can get your toddler to sleep quickly, you can get them back to sleep quickly. It's a magic way to leave them feeling connected and regulated and

comforted. It's much easier to have a newborn and a toddler sleeping at the same time during the day. Having that magic combined nap scenario. If you're able to breastfeed both of them, you've got a magic switch essentially, let's only take that away if you really feel you need to. Now some people wean in pregnancy, because they don't want to feel trapped if at all feels too hard after the baby's born. They're weaning just in case they don't like the idea of

tandem feeding. Because for them the nightmare is that you're a few weeks in you hate tandem feeding you hate your situation, then presumably you're not allowed to wean them is not the rule. You're not allowed to win. Once you've got a baby and a toddler at the same time, you're forced to continue breastfeeding a toddler. No, not true. We'll talk about that in a minute. So we have people weaning in pregnancy, not because they want to, but because they might want

to. They're literally winning in pregnancy because they might want to win later on. I can't imagine an equivalent. It's like you've got long hair, you love your long hair. It's a fantastic part of your life. It makes you feel happy. And you don't want to cut it but you do cut it all off. Because maybe there's a chance that you might want short hair in a few months time and you can't cut your hair then. So you've got to cut it now just in case you want to cut it in a few

months time. Who says you can't wean when you have a baby and an older child? The greatest barrier may well be your luck, lack of comfort. didn't start doing that because everyone else is telling you, you can't win when you have a baby and an older child and everyone else is telling you, it's too hard. Nothing is impossible. If you do choose to turn them feed, and then when you get there, it feels unmanageable, and you're feeling miserable, you absolutely can make changes.

Your child has then had those extra months and weeks of being able to breastfeed during pregnancy. And you're now weaning at a time that feels right for you and your older child. That's the time when you want weaning to happen when it feels right not a hypothetical decision based on what might be happening in a few months time, when at the time it feels right to win. And honestly, having a baby around can actually be an

advantage. There is something very concrete and very real about having a baby in the room that really highlights that their relationship with the breast has changed. You will be surprised how many older children say Oh, I don't think I'm going to carry on breastfeeding anymore. That's my baby sister's job. That's my baby brother's job. They get it, there's something in their brains that often connects

together. And older children really can appreciate that their needs are different, they can see that their baby is entirely dependent on the breast for their nutritional needs. What can help is a tool maybe making a visual representation of their experience of having breastfed, so what I sometimes say to families, is get a really big piece of paper, get too thick

felt tip pens. On one side, put a mark for every week that your older child has breastfed, or you've got some time every day your older child has breastfed look at all those the hundreds and hundreds of little lines, and then put a mark for every day in a different colour that your baby has breastfed. Look at the difference because little people are very into sharing and what's fair and having their fair turn. Come on, look at all the days and weeks that you've

had milk. And let's look at all the days and weeks that babies had milk. A much older child might even be able to get a concept of gallons or litres and a sense of all the milk that they've had in their whole life. They may feel as though they're missing out when you start the weaning process. But you can immediately start by saying how long mate you've really had a good turn. Let's look at some of these photographs of when you were a baby feeding, let's think of all the times you fed in your

life. So they may have some protest at the thought of milk ending. I'm not saying that they're not going to have any emotions at all. But we can explore those feelings. We validate them, we talk them through we say Yeah, but you're a bit different, aren't you? You know, there are other things that you can do, that baby can't do, we can still have cuddle time, you can still help say hello to baby, you can still have a short feed maybe with a timer on, you might be able to

have mommy's milk and a cup. But your world is a bit different from baby's world. We sometimes hear parents say Oh, but I don't want it to be jealous of the baby. I once heard someone describe the arrival of a new sibling is a bit like our partner saying to us, you know what? I think I'm gonna bring another spouse into the marriage. Is that okay with you. This is not something you've remotely consented to.

And they're essentially going to force this on you, you are being forced to accept a new family member. This is what it's like for a new little person. Of course, they're going to feel jealousy. In that moment, of course, they're going to feel a sense of dislocation, and it's going to be scary and a bit weird. We cannot control those feelings. But we can show them that we are there for them in

different ways. If we need wasn't in the picture, I promised there'd be another kind of weaning the kind of weaning because you can't be there for every single bedtime the kind of weaning because you can't play with them every single moment that you used to play with them. There would be another focus for resentment, there will be a different issue with exploring concepts of sharing and and finding new boundaries. Breastfeeding or weaning is not

the cause of the jealousy. There may be outlets for those feelings. But having outlets for feelings isn't a negative thing. That's a positive thing. It means that feelings can be seen and they can be labelled and they can be explored and validated and supported. If you do want to win, but you don't believe you're allowed to win, and you force yourself to

continue tandem feeding. What are you going to be doing to your relationship with your older child, do not assume that older children cannot pick up on that dynamic, they can absolutely read your microexpression they can see that gritted teeth, they can see that there's something going on that doesn't feel quite right, and they're going to be struggling even more. You're not going to be creating a positive environment for the new dynamics of a family if you continue

breastfeeding miserably. But if you win supportively, you can actually come to a new phase of your relationship with your child, which is really positive and healthy. By the way, if your child does win in pregnancy, don't imagine that that's the end of it and you're not going to have any issues once baby arrives. It's not unusual for an older child who hasn't breastfed for a while to show interest again when the new baby's on the scene. It might be that they

weren't a fan of colostrum. Or it might be there were some other things going on on their head. Maybe they didn't like the idea of feeding around the bar. or they didn't like what was going on with your milk volume. And now baby's here and feeding in front of them they want to feed again, could be that they're testing whether they still get to be your baby. Could be they're just a bit curious. Some absolutely want to restart.

Now, that might be fine with you, you might be happy to restart breastfeeding at this point that might not feel comfortable, you might want to instead give them express milk and a cup. Some children say they want to breastfeed. And then when you say yes, they giggle and run away, and they never mentioned it again. So there's all sorts of different variations here. And there's no right or wrong answer and how you deal with this. But you might just want to prepare for

that in your mind. If your child does win in pregnancy, they may show interest later on. You are going to be redirecting and refusing. Obviously, we want that to be as gentle as possible. So I spoke to Natalia, who was a member of what am I waiting groups, and I asked her about her decision to continue breastfeeding through pregnancy. She was a member of a winning group I had where everybody in

that group was pregnant. I asked her about her decision to continue breastfeeding through her pregnancy and her approach to weaning her older child while she was breastfeeding a baby. So she did wean, while there was a baby in the house. How did that go? Thank you very much for joining me today to share your tandem feeding experience. Just a little word about how we met. So we met in one of my weaning

groups. And actually like a few people you join that group, not because you wanted to end breastfeeding, but because you were looking to put some boundaries in place. Tell me about what what were what was your situation with breastfeeding. When you did come to join the group you are feeding your daughter Kayla, weren't you? How was that going?

how to do it at all. Like I was feeling very lost in that time. And I didn't know how I was gonna end that pregnancy if I was feeding her so many times per day.

doing it. And I put her on bogey damn sister having the naps on the buoy. And that was great because like, it looks like something very simple. But it wasn't so simple at all. Not at all. And I think that having all those moms in the same group, like it was really great for supporting each other and to celebrate our little wins. So that was the main one. And then by the end of the pregnancy, I was only feeding here 10 seconds per day. So it was really

amazing. It was just a nighttime, only 10 seconds I was counting, he was happy with it. And only those 10 seconds were glorious to have with her. She loved them. I loved them. And I just wanted to get ready for them and feed him because I really wanted to to breastfeed both of them at the same time. And I'm super my older child through all that transition from one to two, because I found that breastfeeding was going to be a great tool for that. So down to just 10 seconds a

day. That's I mean, that's I guess during pregnancy, you obviously your milk had transitioned and possibly that was a factor as well, because it get down to those 10 seconds. Was she distressed about that because you were feeding a lot at the beginning of the pregnancy, weren't you? Or is it something that just happen naturally during the pregnancy? I think that it happened naturally. But also because I was very clear with with some

boundaries. But the main thing is, I learned lots of little tools like distraction was great. It worked very well during a while. She was bcfc was all there. I remember as well that I used to offer her a glass of water every time that he was asking for for breast so I was offering kind of water before and sometimes that was the only thing that he needed at that time. Yeah, it wasn't as like the boundaries weren't as hard as I as I thought in that moment, but you always knew you

wanted to turn them. Yeah, I knew they wanted to done and feed my sister, my youngest sister. She's also my best friend. See has four children. See Huston and federal of them. So I knew for me was something that was common, and I saw it clearly. And I really like my idea was that I really wanted to support the oldest child with with the transition, I found that it was gonna be difficult for her to start being the

beginning, not a big sister. So yeah, I call it very clear also, because it's something that we were still both of us and you're in so. And I found that for me, breastfeeding was a great tool for so many things. So many things is still so many. So amazing. Yeah, no, it's definitely for sure. So when Kayla was only feeding for 10 seconds a day, did you think when baby comes when you go first or your second child? Were you open to maybe

starting to feed Keeler more? Or what did you have in your head that you wanted to keep it just to that one feed? What were your plans for when baby arrived? I expected that I was gonna, I mean, I will say in 10 seconds per day. But obviously, if shr was distressed, or she fell, or she really needed me, I was feeling fair as well in that moment now, even if he was doing

the right. And so what my idea was that after having data, she would definitely fit a bit more, you know, but I didn't know how much he was going to be or not, I just didn't expect I didn't have any expectation really, I didn't know how it was gonna be. I read a little bit about it, I got informed, but I know that for every person anyway, the urine is totally different. So it depends as well of how physically you respond to the hormones to breastfeeding to having both of the child with

you. So I guess that for every person is totally different. So I didn't really know what to expect.

Because see, wanted to feel a lot like, like a newborn like this was totally different, even to the beginning of the pregnancy was constantly. So I feel that somehow he was because I was, of course, feeling that other newborn on demand. And I didn't hide myself at all for a moment or, and I was always with the girls. And I think that maybe see wanted to feed my mother because of that, because he was seeing how I was, I was feeding the baby. And I try

different tools. Like making care, like a main role helping me to feed the baby or asking him to bring things I remembered I call her my little helper. So she was my little helper bringing me things and taking care of us. And she was feeling important. But still, after a while I realised that I have an aversion that it wasn't that it was my time to when I realised that it was what I had to do, you know, that I wasn't really enjoying in that moment. Yeah, it changed my whole relationship.

I think it's great that you've realised that because I think a lot of people feel like they're sort of stuck tanned and feeding. They feel like once they've made the decision to feed both after babies born that then almost not allowed to win the old child. I want to talk to him about some of your approaches, because I think he did some brilliant things. But how old was your baby when you realised you needed to wean your older child?

I think that he was after the fourth trimester actually, like it was probably during that. During those three first months, I was thinking about it, but not I can have like some moments of evaluation, that I know that there are absolutely temporary. So I think that you can really detect which ones are something that you can definitely manage and fix and you go back to enjoying the risk feeling. And then sometimes it doesn't happen like that. That is what happened

to me. And so he was after three months, probably. Yeah. Okay. So talk us through how you went about doing it because I know you did this brilliant thing. You're telling me the other day about this butterfly idea, which I love. So I want you to make sure you talk about that. Tell me about some of the approaches you took. How did you make sure that Keeler didn't feel rejected that she didn't feel extra jealous of the baby? Because I think that's what a lot of people fear. Tell

us how you went about weaning. I think a lot of people are worried that that Keeler is going to suddenly have this surge of jealousy for her younger sister and the weaning process is going to be extra heightened because of that, and how did you sort of manage that and deal with that?

Well, something that I realised and it's something that I have had many times but until it doesn't click in your brain do Yes, can I understand it is that when the moment has arrived, you have to do it, you just have to do it, you have to do it. I remember one sentence that you said once, that is like, if you need to choose between guilt and resentment, choose always guilt. And that is something that was resonating with middling months. So it was really very important

to win. And once I took the decision of doing it, and he was contacting you, because I know that I knew I really needed support and a bit of guidance, because I didn't, I wasn't doing it properly. I was getting angry at her. I was feeling very violent, and, and I was really hating myself for all that. So once I started, I realised that she wasn't been like she wasn't jealous of the baby, is he was jealous of me like so the baby wasn't the problem at all. What he wanted was to spend time with

me. So he had nothing to do. She wasn't like, it's not that she was hiding my, my youngest baby or anything like that it was all about me. So I was the one who needed to find the alternatives to give that support that the see found during the like, actually it is now four years and three months. So all that support as he has had done in more than four years through there was free, so I need to find the alternatives. So that was the main the main thing.

Yeah, I love that that line about guilt and resentment I love I shouldn't take credit for it because that's the psychotherapist Philippa Perry, she I want to read it in a Guardian article she'd written and when someone was talking about a friendship and they said, you know, she said choose guilt over resentment if you if you have to choose between the two and I think that's very relevant to weaning. So you found some alternatives to connect with Keeley, you found some other ways to connect with

her? And how did you manage that while he was still caring for the baby? What kind of things did you find that could replace breastfeeding in your relationship? So first of all, I got this book was called a Goodbye, Mommy's Milk. That was wonderful. That book.

relationship had to change. So in that book cmmc on the winning wings, so when a child when the relationship of breastfeeding finishes is because the kid is receiving the winning wings, and they are like, all there. So then I realised that my, I remember that my toddler so she's in preschool, starting now, second year of preschool in September, but her first class was called caterpillars. And the second class is called that the one that is starting now is

called butterflies. So then I told her that she was going to become a butterfly now obviously in September so that now during summer, she was in the cocoon and see with that change in changing and sleeping in the cocoon, like also the hiney Caterpillar so I have so many things to brought up that was amazing. So see understood that understood perfectly that he was going to be a butterfly from

September. So also because of the book that the healthcare a lot and what I did is that I got I didn't want to do like a huge celebration at the end of breastfeeding. So first of all, what I did was night when Okay, so that the first day was very difficult. Okay, passing from 100 feeds to only us to receive

to feed only at bedtime. That was a huge like reducing the night feeds and the feeds during the day and bring them like like bribe them only in the bedtime one because for me that one really loved it and is the way that he fell asleep. That first day was difficult, very difficult. So he has a few tantrums and he was having a bad day after he was feeling better

about it. And in today's he understood, he was laughing once he was asking for boobies and I was telling her no you cannot now and she was like okay the time the time and we would like that for two full weeks, two full weeks but in the meanwhile after one week of doing that, I started mentioning her that we that it was it was going to have to change actually what three weeks or so the last week we were again talking about okay, now you are really becoming a

butterfly. So now we need to stop this is going to finish on Sunday night. This is going to finish on Sunday night. Um see understood. He understood. We used to repeat it every single day. And then we had the other night feel that last night feed on a Sunday night exactly two weeks ago. Exactly. And what I have done during those fields last Few days previous days to that day is conducting a friend of mine that she's an artist and she makes very beautiful drawings. And I asked her to do

something for us. Since Kyla loves colouring, I asked her to do a kind of mandala or something that inspired her when we were butterflies or, you know, something like that. And we'll see that it was a beautiful one when I was a butterfly called in my baby, and the baby was in my cocoon, we were still hugging the Cognito there, and I printed it and that first night that we wouldn't fit in just before going to wear even on bare, we brought on the colouring and the papers, and we

were colouring together. And then she fell asleep next to me while I was singing a song to her, she fell asleep and it was perfect. And now my friend has made the same drawing, but both both of us being butterflies. So she's super excited about all this process of butterflies. Now when I'm spending the holidays there is a woman that she makes jewels, beautiful jewels of silver and she's gonna make a little butterfly for him. She has already chosen it and she's super excited with this tool.

And I also got her some fabric wings of a butterfly that I received the just like two days after winning her and she loved them and says play him safe had them on the back. They are really beautiful. It really is not like fairy wings or anything like that they are really fabric and you can move around and see loves them so now see so says we butterfly since we stopped feeding.

you're a big girl. I mean, the to say you're a butterfly is so much more empowering. And what am I just What a lucky coincidence that you happen to be moving rooms at preschool and going from caterpillars to butterflies. I actually think you could make a whole bunch of resources around caterpillars and butterflies and talk about weaning being a butterfly process and yeah, cop copyright, Natalia and Keeler if you do come up with some resources,

give me a shout. And I'll make sure I promote them because I think your maybe your Illustrator friend can share some colouring sheets with other people that people can download from somewhere because I know that I didn't, that's a great metaphor. So it's been two weeks since you've had your last feed. Yeah, how has it affected your relationship with Kayla? How are you feeling about the whole thing?

is just amazing. And I really think that that book of the book of good goodbye mommy's milk really helped a lot because that's exactly what they said in the book. So see, see understood on my role as a mother there and how important breastfeeding is and how important that magical that milk is. So she's like that and then sometimes he just wants sometimes they look at me and they say, you know I miss movie, but now I know that I cannot have more. And she's absolutely fine with it. And then now we

are playing more. We hug each other more. I don't know how to explain it. I think that our relationship was really in crisis just before I took the decision of when officially and

now. It really feels amazing and I don't have any problem with the baby feeding Kyla can perfectly see the baby feeding and there is no problem like she's already one year old the second time and it's not that I have to hide myself is like Killip perfectly understand that the I have to keep on doing it with her and she doesn't have any problem with any of us so yes one can space with me I'm see a car seat so that's the whole thing.

That's a really positive story and I'm sure the fact it's gone so well as credit to you Natalia you've put a lot of thought into it and in asking your friend to make the resources and then using the colouring sheets and actually colouring is a is a really nice activity to do with an older child alongside and over to older child because you you can have that sort of parallel support thing where you're not facing each other intensely you're doing something together but you can talk about

feelings and you can you can have time together and you know colouring together as a lovely lovely activity to do so. Yeah, well it's such a happy ending that story in Italia and you know, you obviously have to almost win twice and that you almost weaned in pregnancy and got right down to those 10 seconds. And then it built back up again. And you had to kind of go through it a second time. And you're probably a bit of an expert when it comes to weaning.

Now, is there anything you would say to somebody who's listening to this? Who doesn't even know where to begin? What's the first step you think someone should take? Okay, so the most important thing is that I don't think it's as difficult as we think that it is, you know, like, when we are in that moment in that espiral it's very difficult because we feel guilty. And obviously, we want everything for our children, you know, we want to give them everything, but it's not as difficult as it looks

like. And what is really important is to get the right support, like so important. Like, for me, that was really something that changed me because I knew and I recognised that my relationship with her wasn't great at that time, and that that was really going to be worse for him. So I needed to

fix it and they are all here. So I was the one who have to make the proper effort and then being able to hold them to hold their feelings on the boundary in some respects headspace so asking for support like the thing that we need support for breastfeeding within support as well for women and especially talking about it like I realised that them for me in my pregnancy yoga group, they were another two month moms that they were feeding their older child and he was great and

actually three months it was great talking to them, you know, and knowing their their how they were feeling Sander loads, because you weren't feeling allow you weren't feeling alone at all, you will feel understood. So talking and talking and talking and finding your village and, and keep on talking about breastfeeding. I think that was wonderful. Yeah, it was the best thing.

on fear and responsibility. It's not the pressures of being a big girl. You know, butterflies, that's such a positive image, it's an image you can really grab on to. I love that. For other information on weaning older children when there's a baby around, have a look at a picture book, Booby Moon with Two, by Yvette Read. Now I'm not advocating it as a book, which you follow as an instruction manual. I didn't feel that way about the first Booby Moon book

either. The first Booby Moon book is about releasing balloons and giving your milk back to the moon. Quite truthfully, I don't think anyone's releasing balloons these days up into the sky, and it's very likely you won't be able to see the moon anyway, if you look at your front door. Think of it as a story. It's a story about another child that shows their weaning journey. And in Booby Moon with two, there is a little baby in the house, he's still

feeding. And it's a story that you can use to explore feelings, including some big and hard feelings. You know, when we're winning, when there's a baby in the house, we're not pretending that big feelings won't happen. We need that validation will need to develop other strategies of coregulation will need to work out other ways to meet their needs. Weaning is not the act of saying no, we're not taking the breastfeeding away

and leaving a vacuum. We're looking for other things, we're looking for other ways to feel connected other ways to replace that gap. You might find my last episode on Weaning a Booby Monster helpful if you are going to be winning an older child. In a future episode, we'll talk a bit more about pregnancy and breastfeeding in the context of fertility and breastfeeding and conceiving while breastfeeding. It seems like I like to do

things backwards. Next week, I will be doing a q&a episode that covers some of the questions I've received about weaning from my Instagram followers. Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @EmmaPickettibclc and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review

would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.