Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.
Emma Pickett 00:48
Today, I am joined by Emily Sanderson, who's in South London but will forgive her for being a South London us as the North London ever picket. She's here today to share with me her breastfeeding experience. And I'm really, really glad that she's reached out to share this story. She is currently breastfeeding her daughter Elsie, who just turned one last week, Happy Birthday Elsie. But Emily did not have an easy start. And for some of you hearing this story is going to be tough. I will put in the show notes, if there any particular triggers that might people might find tough going. But actually, I think it really is a story of inspiration and the story of a mum, overcoming a difficult beginning, hence the title of the podcast. Emily, you reached out to me and you felt that your story is something other people would value listening to tell me a little bit about what led you to make that decision to reach out to me and why you think your story is something other people benefit from hearing.
Emily Sanderson 01:40
Yeah, thank you. So I wanted to reach out because I feel like tongue tie is talked about a lot. And you're kind of aware of it. But I wanted to reach out because I think people know how difficult it can be. And it's also knowing actually I wasn't alone when I was going through that if other people have gone through it, but also knowing that it's worth sticking through the process at the beginning. Because you can go on to have an amazing breastfeeding journey. It's not a be all Mendel. Yes, it might be a bit tricky at the start, but it's well worth going through.
Emma Pickett 02:16
Yeah, I mean, you definitely had tricky at the start. Let's unpick some of your beginning in your early days. So you were giving birth to your daughter what time of year so she was born in winter. You're expecting her to be born and not the easiest time of year. Was she around her due date? Or was she premature?
Emily Sanderson 02:34
So she was a bit early. She was due on the first of Feb. She arrived on the 17th of January. So 37 plus six. Okay, so it was a little bit early, but still within the kind of safe window of arrival, which was a relief.
Emma Pickett 02:50
Yeah. And what did you know about breastfeeding before you had LC? What kind of antenatal breastfeeding education do you had you had? What were your kind of feelings about breastfeeding before she came?
Emily Sanderson 02:59
So I knew I definitely wanted to breastfeed. I'd done a little bit of kind of training or like a course through the NHS on it, that they had like an online session where they they showed you like the see hold and different things and talked about antenatal expression. throughout pregnancy. I was saying, if I can breastfeed, I'd like to the tipping point for me was talking to someone the other year at the baby show. And I said, I'd like to breastfeed if I want to. And they said no, no, you absolutely can. It might not be easy at the beginning, but you can. And I had that voice in my head throughout. So I knew that we could get through it and carry on.
Emma Pickett 03:41
Yeah, I like the fact that a person was brave enough to challenge you. Because antenatally it's you, we so often hear mom saying, yeah, if it works out, that's great. You know, I'd love to be able to breastfeed, if I can. And obviously, you know, for a small group of people, it really doesn't work out. But if you go in with that attitude of it sort of luck, if it does happen, you know, and something I don't have control over, you perhaps don't necessarily have the drive to get that support, or you may not necessarily have that conviction that it's going to happen. So I'm glad that person challenged you. Do you remember who that was? By the way? I want to put you on the spot?
Emily Sanderson 04:13
I do. Yeah. I didn't know if I was allowed to say it's midwife, hip. Okay, so we did her pregnancy journey course and then met her at the baby show. And it was just in a conversation with her.
Emma Pickett 04:23
Yeah, so she gave you that drive, which obviously was deep inside you somewhere. Did you have family members who had breastfed? Is that something that was sort of part of your experience already.
Emily Sanderson 04:32
So my mum breastfed me and my brother, my brother's nine years younger than me. So I remember her breastfeeding him. What she's always always talked about is that breastfeeding me was excruciating. And every single feed was incredibly painful. She kind of got to six months and then I thrived on solids. So stop breastfeeding at that point, but she wants to do it for me, but I had no support. From what we know now we're for Be certain that I had a tongue tie at the time.
Emma Pickett 05:02
Yeah, it's just gonna say little red flags flying around when you start when you say that, I mean, obviously your daughter at a time play too. And we do know it's there is a genetic link, where your mom's bit of a trooper going for six months in pain that's intense. Did that presumably put quite a lot of pressure on you then you weren't. You had that sort of model of somebody who really kept going despite being in agony? Was that inspiring or scary or both?
Emily Sanderson 05:27
It was inspiring, because I knew it shouldn't hurt. So I knew as the second it was uncomfortable to stop, and to try and relax and restart. My mum was with me in the delivery suite when we had the very first try. And she said, like, that looks painful. Let's stop. And the midwife sort of was like, Yep, let's, you know, retry, and try and relax. So I think it sort of inspired me in that sense. I understood how breastfeeding how important breastfeeding was. And also, I think, just incredibly grateful that she persevered through that. My dad's described how she could he could always tell when I'd latched on because her toes would curl in pain. So yeah, very grateful for that.
Emma Pickett 06:10
Yeah. And then to have her in a delivery sweet, that's a gift. Not everyone gets to have that experience. What was your birth with Elsie like?
Emily Sanderson 06:16
It was amazing. It really was, I went into labour at home, spontaneously, we just had dinner, had a bit of back pain, phoned the hospital, and they said, come in, we'll give you a check. But we think we'll probably send you home. And kind of four and a half hours later, she was on my chest. And my mum arrived, I think just about an hour before she arrived. My husband was there as well. Yeah, it was we weren't able to go to the birth birthing Centre for waterbirth, which had been kind of a preference. But that was that was financed at the benefits and the risks. There was meconium that she did, she'd done her first poll in the womb anyway. So that was sort of why they wanted to do some extra monitoring. And so we were off in the labour ward instead. So it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily what, you know, you'd perhaps sketch out as a dream birth or anything, but it was still incredible because I understood what was going on. And everything happened well, and she was safe.
Emma Pickett 07:20
So yeah, yeah, I mean things, even the birth that don't necessarily go to plan. It's really special that you can describe it as positive language. And when you've just we can see each other obviously, pod listeners can't see us. But I can see your face and you did light up. We need to remember your purpose then, which is lovely. So you've got lovely little LC on your top on your chest. He's coming in for first feed and that firstly, it was not comfortable. Tell me about that. That early feeling.
Emily Sanderson 07:46
It wasn't Yeah, it was they sort of said we have skin to skin and they said do you want to try breastfeed? I was like, yeah, definitely. And they sort of helped me with positioning and things. And there was just this kind of pinching tightness as she was latching and it was really painful. So we took her off. Try it again. I asked about tongue tie then.
Emma Pickett 08:07
Okay, so how did you know about Dr. Reddy? Is that something you'd heard about in your antenatal education? Where did that come from?
Emily Sanderson 08:12
I think I'd heard about antenatal education and also listening to different podcasts. Just think hearing it come up. As you know, this can be an issue for some babies. I yeah, I sort of researched it a little bit but didn't know huge amount. But I remember thinking I'd like to check early. And they sort of brushed it off and said no, no, we don't check for that now.
Emma Pickett 08:36
Oh, golly. So that's not a great start. So this is in hospital in South London. I'm not blaming South London, by the way. I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened in North London. So they brush it off when you say they who was brushing it off that was midwives or doctors or?
Emily Sanderson 08:51
it's to be honest, the recollections victim of exactly who I believe it was midwives at the time, because I think it was them that were helping me to try and try and latch her on. Interestingly, I then had to go to get my stitches checked. And it happened to be a midwife that had been at my birth, and I didn't recognise her face, but I knew her voice. And she still said, I remember you. And I explained that we were there for breastfeeding issues. And she was like, Oh, that's so strange, because she laps so well. And I was thinking she definitely did. And at least that's not my recollection. So that was kind of very bizarre and it obviously does all blur into one a little bit. But my recollection of that very first one was the pinching, tightness, and then that was kind of it. I don't think we really, I think we just said oh, we'll try again later. Or something. I'm not entirely sure I don't express colostrum antenatally so we had that on hand. So I think there was perhaps we were perhaps a bit more relaxed knowing that she was going to get that anyway.
Emma Pickett 09:50
Okay, so, gaslighting is a word that comes to mind maybe that she didn't remember who you were maybe just didn't have a recollection of that particular owner is what was going on there. But that must have felt a bit frightening that you were being dismissed quite early on. But you instinctively knew something wasn't right. And when people say to you, oh, we don't even check for tongue tie anymore. What do you say next in that conversation?
Emily Sanderson 10:12
I think I was just like, okay then fine and moved on. You know, in, in the postnatal ward, I was giving her the colostrum that I'd expressed, I was continuing to express colostrum and trying to offer her the breasts. But after that, it was like she, she'd go on and she'd slip straight off, she just couldn't seem to form a clo clamp. And she literally just could not lateral breastfeed at all. And then I kept saying, Can I speak to the infant feeding team, they weren't necessarily around. One point, I asked to speak to a lactation consultant, I was told they didn't have one, which I later found out they did. And it's not necessarily any particular members fault at all, because it's just communication of what's available. And they didn't necessarily know what was available. And I think I'd you know, I'd asked for the colostrum, and no one would bring it. So then I wouldn't have access to what I could feed her. And this was all just on the postnatal ward. I was there for sort of two nights, she, she had really dry lips, and I kind of said to them, I'm bit worried about this, can you help and they said, Oh, just put some nipple balm on, it'll be fine.
Emma Pickett 11:25
And you were worried that she was dehydrated ways that we were thinking, I think I'm so sorry, this was your experience. It just sounds so lonely in that moment. Just be asking for help and not even have someone bringing your colostrum syringes to you that it's just just sounds really grim. And it's always really difficult to have these conversations because we know there are golden midwives out there who are saving breastfeeding lives all the time, there are health professionals who are absolutely busting a gut to make breastfeeding work. And I'm sure some of them are listening to this and thinking, what was going on there. But there is no doubt there's something going on within hospitals where people are getting failed again and again. Is that particular hospital? Do you happen to know? Is it Baby Friendly, accredited, so that that is a phrase that means anything to you?
Emily Sanderson 12:10
I believe they are, can I say the name of the hospital? in mind,
Emma Pickett 12:16
let's not let's not say the name of the hospital. But we can think about that later, just in case but I don't need to kind of, you know, gatekeeper you on that one. But if we get into individuals, there'll be individual people who will be responsible for that we could get a bit sticky on there. But we can always we can write to them later. You have an ICA formula, if you haven't already. Yeah, so you were let down by the culture of a hospital that was possibly already Baby Friendly, accredited. And unfortunately, so much staff turnover, you get agency staff you get if people come in working overnight, you haven't necessarily done the training and the right people aren't there at the right time. And you just got it just sounds really miserable. So you're there for several days by the sounds of it. It wasn't you weren't home again, that fast.
Emily Sanderson 12:57
I wasn't no. So I was actually on medication in pregnancy that they just needed to double check. LC wasn't having withdrawal symptoms to say that was sertraline, and she was absolutely fine. Thankfully, there I knew ahead of time that I'd need to spend a couple of nights there. So I very first went in, in labour on the Monday and I went home on Wednesday night, I did when I was asking to speak to the feeding team, I did eventually see have a volunteer. And she was a she was really helpful. She kind of tried to give me some help with positioning and the rock Behold, felt a little bit more comfortable. So you're trying that. And then one of the things that she said was there's enough brown fat that we don't need to worry too much about feeding initially. And I think that kind of made me relax a bit. But looking back, I'm sort of questioning that.
Emma Pickett 13:48
I mean, that's true in the first 24 hours. We definitely want to give parents the message that it's okay for that first 24 hours not to be superduper milk transfer city because it's, it's about getting those early colostrum, teeny weeny feeds and seeding and practising. But you're talking about day two, day three, when we do probably need to start getting some milk transfer happening, what was happening with nappies, I realised that asking technical questions at a time your life where you may not remember any of the details, but do you have any memories of early nappies?
Emily Sanderson 14:19
She was definitely doing wet nappies. There was some meconium coming through, but I mean, I can't remember the exact numbers and it was only after that we then started to properly track the kind of numbers when we were discharged from hospital there was at the back of the booklet there was actually like a green and red flags feeding chart. And they were supposed to have shown it to us before we left and no one did that. We ticked every single red flag on there.
Emma Pickett 14:48
Do you remember what some of them were?
Emily Sanderson 14:50
Slightly It was things like that the nappies that the dry mouth, which she then had, stuff like that,
Emma Pickett 14:57
and presumably you being in pain as well. You had Have a single pain free feed. And by the sounds of it not necessarily even a feed where she was taking much milk at this point.
Emily Sanderson 15:06
No, I don't think she was I think she was just getting the colostrum and that was it. As in sorry, the from this syringe might arrest Yeah.
Emma Pickett 15:17
Oh gosh, that is scary. That is a really scary situation. And he was then sent home and something's obviously gone wrong here, Emily and I'm so sorry that is your experience because nobody should be sent home unless we know a baby's transferring milk effectively. And to get be sent home with red flags on the nappies. The dry mouth, you being in pain, you were definitely let down here big time. I'm really sorry. That was your experience. So you're home now what day sort of day three ish. What's happening next?
Emily Sanderson 15:48
So we continue trying to bring her to the breast and she just couldn't latch, I continue collecting colostrum. My husband actually took her for the first two nights so that I could sleep and recover which I now sort of think that was a mistake in terms of establishing breastfeeding effectively.
Emma Pickett 16:07
So he was feeding us something else overnight, we were already giving other kinds of milk
Emily Sanderson 16:11
at this point. And knows this was all the Express colostrum.
Emma Pickett 16:15
So you had a lot of Express colostrum, by the sounds of it. If there's still some happening in day for sort of day four. I mean, do you remember how many syringes you had?
Emily Sanderson 16:22
I mean, they give you the little bags of syringes. And I did at least two bags worth. Wow. Okay. Because I've been doing it, I think from about 36 weeks. And then I continued after she was born. Because when I did manage to speak to the infant feeding volunteer, she said to keep going until my milk came in. So I just kept, kept and expressing it.
Emma Pickett 16:44
Okay, so that is definitely what my dad found expressing I mean, you know, it has to be really blunt that that really did help keep her safe. And those few days. And if you didn't have if you haven't about those colostrum syringes, this could be a really very scary situation. So well done for all that and expressing it. So he was then giving her to express her and just overnight and you weren't expressing overnight, you hadn't had that information. You were just sleeping. And yeah, and then obviously reflecting on that. Now you have a sense that may not have been helpful in terms of you're not coming through. And babies getting weighed at this point. So midwives coming to see you at home. What happened then?
Emily Sanderson 17:19
So we went to the three day midwife check. They didn't weigh her, but she said they looked fine. I sort of said about feeding and she said no, it looks like you're doing everything right. Just takes time to get used to. And it was around now that her mouth started to feel really dry. And when I was collecting them the milk change colour in the syringes and so we thought, okay, looks come in. So let's stop doing syringes. Now. It was then at the day five, check. The community midwife, Maria asked about nappies checked her over. I explained the issues with feeding. She went away and did some calculations. And she just said she's lost 19% of her birth weight. And I will never forget the look on her face when she just said that's not good. Because I didn't know, I knew that they were supposed to leave what lose weight but I didn't know, kind of the safe parameters of that or what was then considered concerning. And something inside of me broke when she said that. And my immediate reaction was, Is she going to die? And that's horrible. I'm fairly certain this Express colostrum actually probably saved her life.
Emma Pickett 18:38
Yeah, I think you're right. I think from what you've described, it really does sound the case. Oh, Emily, that's, I can't imagine that moment and how awful that must have been.
Emily Sanderson 18:47
It was horrendous. She said, You know, I'm worried about her. You know, first of all, she sort of said, No, she's not, she's going to be fine. But you do need to go and get help. You need to go straight to the hospital. So we couldn't even go home. We were just walking along the road trying to flag down a black cab so that we could get in with the posture. We went straight to straight to a&e. And they were at we were amazing. They saw a straightaway. I think probably because she was so little. We explained she checked her over and they were concerned about her sodium levels. She then said Are you okay to give her formula I said yet, whatever she needs, that's that's completely fine. And I was then given the chance to express an eye. I expressed something like 150 millilitres, it was a huge amount forgiven. I forget the exact amount but went for the stage that I was at. But it was still yellowish as well. So it was still the colostrum. And that was when we were then admitted to hospital. And when they were inspecting her nappies all of the meconium hadn't quite passed. So we're now on you know, day five. When I think that should have all gone through by then?
Emma Pickett 20:02
Yes, yeah, for sure. So, by around day three, we really should be seeing transitional stalls moving on to those paler stools bicep day four by day five, there shouldn't be any signs of meconium. I mean, the business about your milk being a bit yellowy, to be honest, human milk is a there's a spectrum of colours. So we can't necessarily say, for sure what was happening there. There is a sort of transitional stage where we might find our milk as you know, slightly yellower as we're transitioning away from colostrum. But without a doubt, you're describing a situation where LC wasn't transferring milk. And you know, that super scary. I mean, there are some people who probably had sharp intake of breath when they heard you say, 19%. For anyone who's not familiar, anything over 10% is considered a worry, and we need to just check and find out what's going on. I've met babies who lost 13% or 15%, I've not met a baby that's lost 19%. So this was a serious situation. And I'm glad that you lived in South London, having said good things about South London, I'm glad you live do live in South London, and the hospital is close journey and you don't live in the middle of a rural area and you're talking about you know, 40 miles to get to the nearest hospital. That's that's a good place to be. And it's really lovely to hear the a&e work. It felt supportive, and it didn't, you know, that wasn't a negative experience, because you're probably quite traumatised from that moment of being sent to hospital. We were so you're in hospital, and they checked sodium levels. What else happened at that point?
Emily Sanderson 21:25
So you got admitted, the a&e Nurse, her name, her name was Adele, she was amazing, my husband had actually come across her in his line of work. And when she was out of the room, he said to me, we're in safe hands because this is who she is. And he told me the situation that he'd met her in and I thought, okay, that's, that's good. She gave us a feeding plan every two hours to try on the breast five minutes each side, then give a very specific amount of breast milk topped up with formula, then pump for 20 minutes. And we need to aim to have that process done within one hour, because then we'd have another hour. And then we did start all over again.
Emma Pickett 22:05
This is an a&e nurse is giving you this reading plan that would not be everybody's experience. So the fact that she felt confident to do that and support you through that and get you started on Triple feeding as you can tell that she's the one who's happy to just get on with it and give you the information you need. And you were then how long were you in hospital at that point.
Emily Sanderson 22:23
So we got admitted on the Sunday, and we left on the Wednesday. Okay. And every bottle, it was a fight to keep her awake. And to get it in as she just wasn't that interested. Occasionally she goes a little bit, there was some kind of hope in that she always seemed to prefer the breast milk, which was quite nice. But again, I was drying around the breast. But there was nothing. She just she couldn't like she couldn't stay on. I spoke to them for feeding team on the phone. And they sort of said, you know, do lots of skin skin. So we were obviously doing that. But because it was over the phone, they can check my latch or anything. It was then again a few more days. And we managed to speak to someone. And they actually came and saw us at this point. And she sort of had gloves on how to feel and her mouth said I'm not trained in it. But I suspect she has a tongue tie. And so we then worked with her to to move forwards but
Emma Pickett 23:21
of what day was that and that someone finally checked for a tongue tie or even doesn't even sound like it was someone who perhaps was legitimately qualified to check for a tongue tie. But she was willing to support you because she said something was going on what day was that? That that happened?
Emily Sanderson 23:34
That would have been about day seven.
Emma Pickett 23:37
Okay, so in the movie version of this Adele checks for a tongue tie and magically knows it's a tongue tied, it's fully qualified and you get your tongue tied referral done on that day when you first meet Adele. Sadly, that wasn't the movie version in the left in the non movie version, you should still have somebody checking for a tongue tie, you've been admitted to hospital for a significant weight loss. Obviously, something dramatic is happening with milk transfer. Even though you're in hospital from Sunday to Wednesday, you still didn't get access to face to face qualified breastfeeding support.
Emily Sanderson 24:10
I mean, that is the inverse feeding team who were I don't know exactly what their training was. But I know that it wasn't kind of full lactation consultant level, if that makes sense. They were really helpful in that, how they helped me. They were really supportive and how they we talked about kind of the amount I was expressing in the formula top ups and how we were trying to then increase my supply to outweigh and then eventually just completely take over from the formula which then that happened sort of the day we went home and
Emma Pickett 24:43
you were using a double hospital grade pump. Were you in hospital? Yep. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you're being very sweet saying they were helpful. You're obviously a calm person I can tell. I would want to throw things on your behalf because there was still a massive piece missing in those few days when you were in hospital. Oh, it really should the first priority should have been why did this baby lose this much weight? What is happening at the breast? Let's get someone qualified to look at attachment, look at milk transfer, let's check down function. Let's work out what's going on, you're still being really, really let down at this point, even though you met nice people who were kind and helpful, do the best they could. The system was really letting you down. I'm so sorry. That was what was happening. What was your partner going through at this point? How I mean, he must have been pretty scared when when midwife said 19% and yoozoom to hospital? Was he somebody that said, to get this breastfeeding Lark? This isn't going to be a good idea? What were the messages coming from him?
Emily Sanderson 25:37
He was incredibly supportive throughout. So first of all, he saved really calm and took his thoughts. But so it's all going to be fine. Don't Don't worry, you know, we'll get this sorted. And whilst we were then in this in the hospital doing the triple feeding, he would be what we tried to do was for him to give LC the bottle so that I, so that she associated breast from me, and the breast milk from me, not the bottle from me. And we think that that sort of did help. And at no point did he ever say, No, I think we should give up on this. I had friends who sort of started to same, like, don't know if this is working. And I was like, No, this is this is this is what I'm doing. There's a stubborn streak there. And I was I was hell bent on on I am going to breastfeed at some point. During all of this. I don't know exactly. When I said to LC, I am going to breastfeed you on Christmas Day. And I did so yeah.
Emma Pickett 26:39
Oh, and she looked at you with a little face. And I'll do my best. Okay, so that's, that's really special, because I imagine that some partners who hear this story are like, this is scary, I am scared. Other people are obviously scared. This is serious. I want to protect Emily from being traumatised, I want to obviously protect my daughter, but he just knew that this matters to you. He knew that that wasn't going to be the answer. And possibly there were other risks by pushing you to not and to not continue breastfeeding into breastfeeding. So high five to the partners who get how much breastfeeding matters to someone and know how to support effectively. So your home, someone's put some gloves on and put a finger in else's mouth. Someone's finally talking about tongue tie. How long did it take to get from there to actually having a division done? Did you then get an NHS referral?
Emily Sanderson 27:31
We did. So it was the seventh of February, I had a look at my calendar earlier, three weeks after she was born and a week and a half from the initial referral. We had the tongue tie assessment, they immediately confirmed it was a tongue tie said it was very clearly affecting feeding and very likely bottle feeding as well, which would explain why we were struggling so much even to just get bottles inside of her. We were also very, very fortunate that my cousin is trained in infant osteopathy. And so in between being discharged from hospital, she'd done a few treatments. And so at the tongue tie assessment, when they said What have you done to try and help and things like that, we were able to say that she'd been seen by an osteopath, which I think really helped them to understand that we were trying to do trying to fix things, but also trying to look at the other avenues that might not just be a tongue tie. The hardest bit was always that I was being told you're doing everything right. It'll just take time. And it's like, well, I'm I might be doing everything right, but something's clearly wrong. Yeah, yeah.
Emma Pickett 28:38
Sure. So yeah, cranial neuropathy. Definitely a shout out to how that can really support post and pre and post procedure being done pre procedure being done, it can be really valuable. So that's that's handy family member family member to have. So you have the procedure done. And just for someone who's maybe going to have the procedure down, just talk us through what that appointment is like what happened in that appointment.
Emily Sanderson 29:02
So it was really calm. My husband and I were there with LC there was two practitioners, I think because one was training and sure enough, it was lactation consultant, who knew they actually had one at the hospital. And so first of all, they asked us some questions about LC about her feeding. We had to explain about the hospital admission. What had happened. And we obviously explained about the osteopathy as well. They then put her there was just a hospital bed type couch thing. They just lay Elsie down, had some had gloves on, and they just checked inside of her mouth. She slept through the entire thing. And so it was it was very gentle. They confirmed that yep, there was a I think it was a posterior tongue tie. And they snipped it then in there. We had to sign sign a form to say yes, we understand the risk because there is a very small risk of him. action. But ultimately between the choice of being able to feed and a small risk of infection, then that's one that I'm willing to take. So she didn't cry. She didn't even wake up.
Emma Pickett 30:12
We were in the room when the procedure is being done. We were barely. Yep. So those someone's holding ahead, someone's lifting a tongue per round handed scissors. When you say snip it is that quick and little feel? And then did you get a chance to feed immediately afterwards?
Emily Sanderson 30:27
She was still asleep. So no, we didn't. But the next day, she slept the entire day. I was out and about, and I used the parents rooms in John Lewis to express and I tried to feed her and she was just really sleepy. And I, we'd been warned that that could happen because she's recovering, that when it hit the six hour mark, I stripped her off right down to a nappy, to make her a little bit uncomfortable to try and then get the milk in her. The day after that she breastfed perfectly.
Emma Pickett 31:00
Wow! Okay. When you say perfectly. Can you remember that? How that feed felt that feed were actually kind of it all seemed to click?
Emily Sanderson 31:08
Yeah, it was. I basically couldn't feel anything. And that was how I knew I could hear her swallowing, I could see her her throat moving. All of the signs that I had been told, this is what you need to look out for, for when she's feeding effectively. But I had no pain. And she was actually staying on the breast. Whereas before, it would be triangle on the breast slip straight off. If she managed, it would be really painful. And she was just there feeding away. Really happily.
Emma Pickett 31:40
How did that feel?
Emily Sanderson 31:42
It was incredible. Yeah, it was amazing. My husband came home from work. And he sort of said, right, you know, where are we at in her feeding? Do you need me to go and get a bottle? I said, we don't need bottles anymore.
Emma Pickett 31:54
That's so special to be able to say that. And he must have been like, Wow, what a day. Oh, that's fantastic. I'm so pleased you had that experience, you're probably aware that not everyone who has a tonne to our procedure done gets the perfect day, the day after. Sometimes it takes a bit of time for tongues to learn what to do and for muscles to strengthen. But I'm so glad that was your experience. You do deserve that after that really tough first three weeks. And was that it then no more
Emily Sanderson 32:23
retail at all. No more pain. We had a follow up session where we were given some exercises for her to help kind of keep any tension at bay. They were really helpful. They they did the exercises to LC and they said, Look, if you film this, then you don't have to try and remember it, you can see what you need to do. So we made sure we did those unlikely say I was I was very, very thankful that we didn't have any further issues because we were both looking at each other and saying if this isn't a tongue tie, we don't know what it is. And obviously, it can still be a tongue tie and not necessarily immediately go smoothly. So yeah, very grateful that we were so lucky.
Emma Pickett 33:05
Yeah. So you've been through this phase of triple feeding, which is so tough. You know, presumably you didn't those first few nights, we got to sleep, you did not get to sleep full nights for a while after that, after that initial scary bit, what sometimes people find is that they find it difficult to trust breastfeeding, but actually to let go of the top ups and let go the bottles is actually quite frightening. And there's a bit of a confidence wobble. And that trauma of having had that weight loss, you know, almost kind of flashback type trauma. I mean, really, really tough. I mean, but it sounds like you trusted what was happening, you knew what milk transfer looked like. And you sound quite relaxed. When you talk about that period of just dropping those bottles, you were happy to let them go. Is that is that kind of fair, you didn't have that confidence wobble that some parents do.
Emily Sanderson 33:51
I was I I definitely remember feeling like, oh, this is strange. We're used to tracking to the millilitre how much she's had to drink. And all of a sudden, we don't know. Because I think right at the beginning, actually after the tongue tie, I think she was feeding from the breast and then still being offered breast milk from a bottle. And then it slowly just stopped. stopped the bottles. And yeah, they didn't happen anymore. And that was when I said nope, we don't need bottles anymore. But I think yeah, it was definitely an adjustment because there's no gauge on the side of a boob to say this is how full I am or this is how much he's had to drink. So it took a while for that to kick in. And there was definitely an element of trust that needed to be built. But I was grateful for the education at that point and understanding what good feeding looked like. And I think that was key there.
Emma Pickett 34:46
Yeah, that's so important. The way you talk about her throat moving and knowing what to swallow looks like. That is that's just golden isn't it, having that information that you could recognise a swallow and that is just really empowering and that's super important for for Ouch to know what that swallow looks like and that chin movement and and also hearing a swallow is brilliant as well we know that's a marker for, for good feeding, I'm just feeling a little bit of empathy for your your husband going back to work, you know he just doesn't sound like his paternity leave was longer than a couple of weeks leaving you alone. You know not knowing what was happening with feeding dashing home to find out what was going on was your mum with you during the day where you will own during the day at this point.
Emily Sanderson 35:27
So I was mainly on my own, he had two weeks paternity leave, he then used some rest days to get an extra week because we'd been in hospital. So I think there was then about a week whereas on my own, and then I asked my mum works in a nursery, she was then off on half term. So I then had her around again. And I think he was then on his rest days because he does shift work. So that that was obviously very, very helpful. I think he he found it difficult going to work. And at the very beginning when he went back I was still expressing as I was then trying to express with a newborn baby on my own. And I remember trying to well actually succeeding in expressing whilst changing a nappy.
Emma Pickett 36:15
It's possible not even with a hands free pump. That was your your hospital grade pump. So yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, triple feeding on your own is intense. That is That is about as tough as it gets, especially when you're scared. And you're you know, the the breastfeeding bit is painful and difficult. And yeah, so gosh, you are a strong woman only that is without a doubt. And how did weight gain then move forward after that? Any other wobbles,
Emily Sanderson 36:41
no other wobbles. She's continued to thrive. We took her. I think it was weekly at first and then they said you can come every other week. And then we sort of slowly just I think it was like we then perhaps try and go once a month. And then end of last year, we had someone say, the healthiest source of sale, you're bringing her very frequently. Why is that? And we said well, because we're still worried about her weight loss and things and she said, she'll said it. You know, she's well past that now. It's okay. We had her one year review last week, and she was still tracking perfectly. So she's she was born at seven pound one. She then lost the 19%. And then she's now switching weight systems here. Sorry, nine kilogrammes. So she sort of carried on on a nice curve, which is what we like.
Emma Pickett 37:38
Yeah, for sure. When you look back on those first three weeks, is there anything you wish could have been done differently? Are you somebody that hit yourself over the head and give yourself a hard time? Or are you sensible enough to know that you were being let down by a system and there wasn't necessarily thing that you could have done differently? What do you think went about those three weeks and you look back on them?
Emily Sanderson 38:00
I definitely don't think there was anything I could have done differently in the time from when we came off the postnatal ward to then being readmitted. I was going to breastfeeding clinics, I got referred to the community midwife. I was seeing someone from a different thing every single day trying to figure out what was going on. I think I what I would do differently is on those first nights back home as much as the full night's sleep was needed. I obviously now understand that actually having LC at the breast would have potentially helped my supply that little bit later, even if she wasn't transferring. But overall. I mean, it was all worth it because of where we are now. And the fact that we are now successfully breastfeeding over a year later, yeah.
Emma Pickett 38:53
And I talked about feeling like I wanted to throw things about 10 minutes ago. Do you feel anger towards the hospital? Have you thought about writing any letters to talk about the tongue tie being dismissed? I mean, what where are you at that mentally?
Emily Sanderson 39:07
To be honest, this is the first time it's occurred to me. I think, initially, I felt let down that we hadn't been shown that warning checklist because I think we could have picked up on something sooner. My one moment of pure fury and anger. There was one moment in that hospital admission. I didn't eladia come around with with dinner. And I'd got the tray there but I was pumping and trying to feed LC we were in that sort of bit of the cycle. And she came back wanting to collect the tray and we were like we're really sorry, we've not I've not even eaten yet. And she was like fine and sort of hopped off and then she came back five minutes later. And she sort of she wanted the tray back and I was like, you know here like we can take it wherever you need whatever and she was she was getting really angry with us. And I was like you can see we've got a tiny tiny baby and horse So, and I think she just totally dismiss me and said something like, I don't care or something. And she left the room and I just screamed, and that sort of frustration boiling out. And I think this is where the cracks can start to show in, in the system. from her point of view, she's obviously trying to do her job in getting the trays back on time, and although otherwise she'll get in trouble. But there's some care there that needs that's missing. And that was my one moment of anger and frustration coming out. I think that did get that in get might have got reported up because I then had, maybe it was a paediatrician or someone the next day kind of come and review the feeding plan and say, Oh, this is very intense. Maybe we should do three to four hours instead of every two now that she's a little bit more stable. Interesting.
Emma Pickett 40:53
So do you think their response to that was, oh, this Mom's doing a triple feeding plan? That's too stressful. That's why she screamed, not because someone tried to remove the tray from her and prioritise the trove of her baby care. Got it interesting. That was the response stressed Mom, let's reduce the frequency of the triple feeding plan rather than stress Mom, what's the support network? Like? What information should be given? You know, what's going on here? Is someone giving us food at the right time. You're very kindly describing as cracks forming. I'm saying Grand Canyon's forming in some of the care you're describing here. That individual person who said, We don't check for tongue tie. I wish I was a fly on the wall in that moment to know what was happening there. What was going on? For somebody maybe not feeling qualified? Or maybe they meant they didn't check for tongue tie. I didn't know what was going on there. But there's no doubt the fact it tooks X number of days for you to finally get to tongue tongue tie checkers is a system letting you down. You are definitely that down. And you were allowed to leave hospital when you should have been given extra information and support before that point. Those few days at home, you are not in a good place. And thank goodness for your antenatal expression, for sure. is absolutely the case. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, that that that could have been life saving in that moment. So thank you for being sensible and doing antenatal expression of colostrum, Emily of 15 months ago, or wherever you were. So have you had a chance to do a debrief around what other than this conversation? Have you ever sort of sat down with someone and thought about those first few weeks? And that trauma of that 19% moment? Is that something you look back on and you feel your heart rate increasing? And you feel stressed about that? Or did the positive outcome mean that you could kind of put that to bed and we feel peaceful about that?
Emily Sanderson 42:43
I think I've definitely tried to see the positive outcome as okay, you can move on now. Whenever it comes up for reviews and things like that of Oh, Has she had any hospital admissions? Have there been any feeding issues, which it comes up periodically? Then I always get this sense of I failed at that point, which I know isn't true. But that's an automatic gut feeling. But I think this is sort of the first time that I've talked it three fully with anybody.
Emma Pickett 43:22
Yeah, I mean, that gut feeling of failure. I'm glad your logical brain knows that that isn't fruitful. That isn't something you had control over and you were failed multiple times to get you to that point. I'm glad that your logical brain knows that even if your gut still has that wobble. Yeah, that was gosh, that is an intense moment. And it's still relatively recently in your life. I mean, you've probably got a jet, you know, jars of jam in the fridge that are this old. I mean, it's not that long ago that you had this experience when you look at your breastfeeding now. Do you find yourself a bit wobbly around solids intake? Is there any other areas of anxiety you have around her growth and nutrition? How are you feeling about everything else?
Emily Sanderson 44:04
So I think overall really good. She took to solids, she loved it. She adores her porridge and paints her face with chilli which is amazing. It was an obviously an adjustment at first especially since then, as breastfeeding then starts to it's not I wouldn't say it's really tailed off even but you can tell she is perhaps not taking as much. That's something that I have been doing. I returned to work when she was 10 months because we did shared parental leave. My husband took over and I'm back at work expressing twice a day work have been really supportive. But what we're doing is she won't necessarily take a bottle. So we use we do things like make her porridge with breast milk make pancakes with it, so we know she's getting it and we just sort of get it in any which way I bet she has now actually started from just a straw Cup taking breast milk straight out the fridge, not warmed or anything. So who knows? Yeah, it's very anti not having to faff around with it, or the bottle warmer or anything. But what's what's also amazing is somewhere I'm trying to think how old she was now, probably the eight month mark. We'd been using baby sign language and she started to sign for milk. And so she can now look at me smile and go milk please. This, which is lovely.
Emma Pickett 45:38
That is really special night. You said that very early on. You said to her, I'm going to feed you on Christmas Day. And then you've got to Christmas day. Do you? Did you have that in your mind when we're in it on Christmas day came? Did you remember that moment?
Emily Sanderson 45:50
I did, even the week before Christmas was thinking just get to Christmas day, even though there was no sign that anything would change. I was thinking in Asus, if something happens to stop it, but no, we had multiple feeds on Christmas Day. And it was it was lovely. And you know, I've made sure that I got some pictures as well. One thing that I think I started to be a lot more cautious about the advice that I'm given from different professionals. So at her one year review, the health has to said, I'll only take her to the breast twice a day. She doesn't need more than that. I walked out and Todd told Daniel, my husband, we're not doing that.
Emma Pickett 46:31
That's and I come from Emily, where does that come from?
Emily Sanderson 46:35
I don't know. She loves her solids. There's no issues with her solid intake. And even if she didn't, then the chances are breastfeeding would be supporting her and you need to get to the bottom of another issue not stopped breastfeeding.
Emma Pickett 46:48
So forgive me lately. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Isn't it weird? People just feel like they need to say something. I mean, there's no issue at all that you're describing this. Something practical has to be told to mom, I will create practical comments that are on here. I'm throwing more things here. Emily, you're very peaceful. Do you have goals in mind for your breastfeeding? Where do you think where would you like to go over the next year?
Emily Sanderson 47:11
I'd love to breastfeed for at least two years. Just from the WHO guidance really. But as long as it's still right for Elsie and I then I'd love to carry on beyond that. And either natural term, or basically, however long it's right for the two of us. We both love it. There's nothing better than that cuddle. And it's yeah, it's amazing. So I don't have any plans to stop anytime soon.
Emma Pickett 47:41
I'm so glad this is where you ended. And it's just a really happy into a very difficult start. And I don't need to feel like I'm saying you should have written letters, by the way, because we all have different space in our lives. And you're working and not everybody has that moment. And actually, by making this recording, I'm hoping you're you're helping to you know, some people are gonna listen, and some people can take information away that will help them. You know, we can't change the world. But there is even now there is space to write if you wanted to, if you wanted I mean, even that health visitor, one year review comment is something that probably could be fed back and could feed into training, because that's somebody who doesn't fully understand how one year olds breastfeed. But that's as I said, your job is to look after ALC and look after your family and look after yourself. And you're doing a brilliant job at that. So thank you so much for joining me today. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you really want to make sure you say, or anything that I've said that you'd like to kind of push back on? Is there anything you want to end with?
Emily Sanderson 48:39
I think thing that I would say to anyone is get the support, find where your local breastfeeding Cafe support network is. And it might be difficult at the beginning, but it's worth it. And just take it a day at a time getting that support, because you can do it. And it is doable. And you can have the same kind of happy one year. Plus, as we've been lucky enough to have. Yeah,
Emma Pickett 49:10
I mean, you're describing some of the lowest moments that anyone can have with breastfeeding. And you, you can pass that. And I'm really glad that you did. Thank you so much for joining me today. And we really appreciate it. So in the show notes, is there any information or resources that you really think people need to know about? Is there any thing anything where you'd signpost people to get information or any resources that really helped you?
Emily Sanderson 49:30
I think there was just a lot of googling about breastfeeding support groups near me and things like that. So I think actually, there was a course mentioned on starting breastfeeding in one of the previous podcasts that was free. And when I heard that I thought, Oh, I wish I'd done that.
Emma Pickett 49:49
Yeah, so the IBM the association of breastfeeding mothers have a free course called Teen baby. That's a online course you can do an antenatal expression that sounds like this is definitely an advert for that as well. So Making sure that you know how that works and how valuable that can be. Thank you, Emily, I will let you get back to work. And are you talking to me in your office and I massively appreciate it. And thank you for sharing your story. You are an inspiration. Oh, without a doubt. Thank you.
Emily Sanderson 50:13
Thank you very much.
Emma Pickett 50:19
Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.
Emma Pickett 50:51
One final thing, I have a discount code for my podcast listeners for my last two books, the one on supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond and the one on supporting weaning or the transition from breastfeeding. If you go to the UK Jessica Kingsley press website which is uk.jkp.com and put in the code MMPE10. That's MM for makes milk P for Pickett E for Emma one zero, you'll get a 10% discount on checkout. Thank you.