Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.
Emma Pickett 00:46
Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode, we're going to be talking about Lucy's weaning journey and the end of Lucy's breastfeeding journey. Lucy is a midwife, but we're not talking today with her midwife hat on we're talking with her mum hat on and really honoured that she's able to join me today. Thanks for joining me, Lucy.
Lucy Cass 01:05
Thank you for having me.
Emma Pickett 01:07
So let's start at the end. Yes. How long is it since you last breastfed?
Lucy Cass 01:12
Oh, I think we must be about three or four weeks now actually.
Emma Pickett 01:19
Okay, and how are you feeling emotionally about the fact that it's been that long? Did you have any weaning blues? Did you have any sort of emotional reactions, the end of breastfeeding? Have you been in the last month or so?
Lucy Cass 01:31
I think it's been a bit of a roller coaster for sure. I've I think being pregnant has probably levelled it to an extent compared to what I was expecting. And but I think I've done it so so so slowly, that I've almost by the time, we actually did the final kind of ritual sending the milk away. It didn't feel like a big step really. Which I think has helped. It's hard. You know, sometimes she asks, or, but she says it in a way where she knows it's not there. So she'll say things like, sometimes I miss milk mummy, or sometimes I miss mommy milk. And but we it's something we can talk about, which is nice. So the way we've done it, I'm able to, I can say to her, you know, I miss it, too. And that's quite nice.
Emma Pickett 02:25
Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. And that's, and obviously validating our feelings is so important. You mentioned that you were pregnant. Obviously, you guys were sort of taught starting this at the end, how many weeks pregnant? Are you at the moment?
Lucy Cass 02:37
I am 28.
Emma Pickett 02:39
Okay. And you made a decision that you didn't want to turn them feed. Tell me a bit more about how you reach that decision and why that feels right for you.
Lucy Cass 02:49
Yeah, so it's kind of been a bit of a journey where I was very, very sick with my first pregnancy. When we decided about trying for another, my head automatically said, Well, I can't possibly breastfeed at the same time as being pregnant, let alone having another one because I had this image of me being you know, horrendously poorly and feeling sick, and then still nursing to sleep. But actually, none of those things happened. I, I felt very well this pregnancy. And so I kept feeding. And then I actually listened to your episode about tandem feeding. And I started that the decision I think, changed from being such a black and white to more of a grey. And I realised that actually there were, there were potential options for me to tandem feed. But that I would, my aim was always to wean her. But I also started to think, well, if she doesn't mean or it's not working, then we'll just roll with it and see what happens. So I became a lot more open about it and a lot less. I basically removed the timeline I'd given myself.
Emma Pickett 03:57
Okay, so you sort of ended up just being open to possibility. So it sounds as though you started a weaning journey, very gently, and it has actually worked out that you've weaned, but you've you left that door open that if it didn't feel right, if your daughter was really struggling, maybe you would have carried on with some feeding. Tell me a little bit about more, a little bit more about your daughter. How old is she?
Lucy Cass 04:18
So she will be two and a half? Or she's exactly two and a half actually in a few days time.
Emma Pickett 04:25
and do you mind giving asking her name would you want to give her a pretend name for the purposes of this call?
Lucy Cass 04:30
she's called Joy.
Emma Pickett 04:31
Oh, lovely name. So Joy, two and a half. Just about to have a new sibling arrive sometime in the spring next year. Yeah. Does she, she knows that you're pregnant?
Lucy Cass 04:42
She knows a baby's coming. Yes, very much so
Emma Pickett 04:45
and has she made any association with that and her weaning? Does she think that that's why she's weaning or does she make any connection there?
Lucy Cass 04:53
Um, I don't think she connects the weaning to the baby but she we have I've had discussions because of the winning books that we've used. We've had discussions about, we did a bit of boobie moon, but kind of in our own way. And we can, because that book talks a lot about sending the milk to the moon, so that the new mommies and babies can have the milk. And so she's made that connection herself and that she's, she's sort of asked about what she calls a baby sprinkle. She's asked about baby sprinkle milk, baby sprinkle. That's a tricky word. So we've kind of had discussions where I've explained to her I've said, when it's when she sent the milk to the moon, I said, Well, you can ask, we can ask the moon for milk again, when baby sprinkle comes and then mommy will get new milk. And then joy of her own accord kind of said that that would be sprinkle milk. Okay. But we know I don't know until when until that happens. I don't know whether she will definitely be happy with it being just sprinkles milk, or if she will then decide she wants to feed again. But I'm kind of open to going with what? What feels right at the time,
Emma Pickett 06:09
I think, yeah, that sounds like a very wise place to be so. So if sprinkle was born, and Joy said, Hey, that looks quite good. Kind of have some of that you'd be up for tandem feeding at that point. Is that wait, what you're thinking?
Lucy Cass 06:22
I think potentially. But it's so hard to know, until you're there. I think with any of these things. I've I've tried too much, I think in the weaning journey generally to, to have a forward plan. And actually, most of the time, I realise things kind of work out. If I if I allow them time to,
Emma Pickett 06:41
I think that's a really healthy way to look at it. I think so often in the breastfeeding world, we're encouraged to have goals, set a number of months, set a number of years, and we're gonna wing it. So I'm gonna wing it two years. And actually, I really like the way you're talking about just just leaving open, just seeing what feels right. You know that, depending on how your birth goes, depending on how sprinkles feeding is going. You know, there'll be a moment when it feels right. And maybe a moment when it doesn't feel right. And there are lots of options in the middle, like putting milk in a cup and all sorts of things. People do things.
Lucy Cass 07:09
Yeah. And that's the sort of thing that I think if she asked for it, perhaps my first route would be offering it in a cup. I think I just My only concern with with really committing to tandem feeding would be just the overwhelm on myself, I think I might find it quite overwhelming. Yeah, it's a lot to be needed that much by two people.
Emma Pickett 07:31
Yeah, I mean, I would just say that you're going to be needed a lot by two people anyway. And you're going to need support to be needed that much. And yeah, and it's likely that joy is going to want to check that you're able to meet her needs and check. You know, your connection with her is okay. And she'll find other ways to do that. And it's absolutely not my job to advocate for a tandem feeding and tell you you should turn and feed. But I would say that sometimes tonne of feeding is a very efficient way of delivering the whole message of, I'm here for you, you're still my baby, we're still connected, I absolutely will meet your needs. This takes seven minutes we're done, whereas the alternative can be Okay, what else can I do instead? How can I connect with her? How can I help her to feel physically self? How can I help her to feel regulated? What other things can I do? And you know, that can actually take more effort than than a short feed a couple of times a day. So I think you're absolutely right, that your instincts will tell you what feels right in the moment. And in the time.
Lucy Cass 08:32
Yeah, I think generally, I tend to aim for the path of least resistance, Haley, and kind of going with what exactly as you said, really the if it's a quickest route of actually settling her and helping her feel involved in that process. And it's definitely something I'd be open to. But we'll just see really, I'm not sure how she'll respond by then. Because by that point, if she wouldn't have been feeding for another, another two or three months, so yeah,
Emma Pickett 08:59
you're right. Her feelings around feeding also could be completely different. Yeah. So let's go back to the beginning. Tell me a little bit about Joy's early breastfeeding. How was how were those first few months with Joy?
Lucy Cass 09:12
I mean, intense as any newborn breastfeeding experiences, I imagine. But really, I was very fortunate. I didn't really have any notable issues with her in terms of she didn't suffer with sort of any latch problems or wish she didn't have tongue tie. I didn't really have any of those issues. She was quite small. She was five pounds 13 When she was born. She was born about 38 and a bit weeks. So I I definitely put pressure on myself to make sure she was getting enough. So just just lots of clustering or the kind of usual things really with her when she was little. I think her weight loss on day five. I remember I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember it being more More than I expected it to be in my midwife brain. And for how much I felt that I'd been feeding her. And I think that played on my mind a bit. And she just, she took longer than 10 days to get back to birth weight. I think she probably took about 14 days. But after that, really, I think once I knew that she was gaining, and we were okay, it kind of settled my mind, and I was able to enjoy it more again.
Emma Pickett 10:22
Yeah. Now, you probably can't answer this because you can't switch off your midwife brain but giving birth a very first time. How long have you been a midwife before you you gave birth to Joy?
Lucy Cass 10:36
So we think I qualified 2018 and then had Joy in 2021.
Emma Pickett 10:41
Okay, so you've seen a lot of births, and you would, finally it was going to be your body? Do you think that made pregnancy easier? Harder? You knew what to look out for? Or did you worry about those rare situations that there could be more anxious, you know, what can go wrong and away? Perhaps other people don't know? How do you think it might have affected you?
Lucy Cass 11:02
I think it's something I talked about a lot with colleagues, particularly pregnant colleagues, that I do think that being a pregnant midwife is an incredibly unique experience. And there are definitely things about it that are positives, because you you are able to reassure yourself, and I almost triage my own feelings at times, you know, if I'm worried about something, I can think well, what would I say this was if this was another mother, if this was another pregnant person contacting me, how would I respond? So I was able to reassure myself about things but I think, in labour, it was definitely hard at times to switch off now. At the time, I'd been working in a home birth team for few years, and I actually had joy at home. But my colleagues will tell you, I was not the easy, the easiest patient.
Emma Pickett 11:48
Oh, sure. How did that manifest?
Lucy Cass 11:51
just in that I wasn't, I wasn't very good at switching off from being a midwife. In the moment, I wanted to, I wanted to know what was going on all the time. And I found it hard to trust the process, which frustrated me so much, because I trusted it for everyone else. And I was constantly, you know, reassuring other mums in the same position that it was all going fine. But when it was me, it was kind of, I just remember, particularly the second stage when I was pushing, feeling like it was taking a very long time. And in reality, because I've looked back at my looked back at my notes, it really wasn't that long. But I remember keep saying to my colleagues, I'm going to transfer in anti I know, I need to transfer it in and I'm going to end up with an instrumental I know, don't let me transfer in.
Emma Pickett 12:39
So you're doing that classic second stage wash of despair, and oh, my God, and Exactly, yeah, yeah. But just doing the midwife version of that.
Lucy Cass 12:48
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. That and so they just kept saying, No, you're fine, don't worry. And then she came eventually.
Emma Pickett 12:56
And then did you have any particular specialism in breastfeeding or infant feeding as a midwife? Is that something you'd done a lot of training in and youth that helps to be more confident? Or were although would try not to sound too rude? Are you one of the UK midwives that, sadly, didn't get a lot of access to training? What was your What was your experience?
Lucy Cass 13:14
I think I was I was very fortunate at the trust that I work in that we've got, we've got a very strong infant feeding team and lactation consultant who's a midwife. And she's incredibly passionate about infant feeding. And so while I haven't had any specialist training, just kind of doing the update days and keeping keeping in touch with things, it's something that I've always felt passionate about when I was a student, I did my dissertation on breastfeeding and home birth. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. So it's something that I'd always been very interested in. And, and particularly at the time from, from a home birth perspective. It was blew my mind how, as a midwife, you can work in the hospital and see mums struggle with it so much more than those mums birthing at home. Yeah. Yeah. Which I mean, there's multifaceted reasons as to why that is, but it's, it was something as a student that I wanted to explore more.
Emma Pickett 14:09
Yeah, yeah. So you were already in the brain of thinking, I'm having a home birth. Therefore, breastfeeding is just going to be a natural continuation of that sort of home birth experience. And and and we could go in, you know, could have a whole podcast about why there is that relationship between home births and getting breastfeeding off to a good start. And that's obviously about the kind of people that have home births and the experience of having a home birth and what it does to your oxytocin. But you told me about that first feed we did you have a water birth by the way, where were you when you had your first feed Now did that first feed go?
Lucy Cass 14:41
I was in bed actually. So I I laboured in the pool. But there was a point in the labour where things have slowed up a bit and we thought, well, I should probably move and change position and I've gone upstairs and sort of gone to the lube and things like that and gone, gone into the bedroom, which is where she eventually was born. So I sort of shuffled onto the bed, and she had a very short cord. And once once the present once the placenta was out, I think I remember at what point the cord was cut, now it's a blur. But then once the cord was cut, I sort of snuggled snuggled her in and actually, we have a video of it because my mum was present. And I'd said to her before, I'd really love you to film any bits you can. And I'll just, you know, go through it and see if there's anything I want to keep. And it's a very short video from the cord being cut to me just kind of scooping her up and just kissing her head about 100 times and and then she fed then. And I don't really remember it being difficult, particularly She kind of just just went on for that first feed. And then I just remember thinking how amazing it was like how amazing she was due to those instincts that she was needing at the breast with a little hands already. And I just thought, wow, this is incredible.
Emma Pickett 16:00
Yeah, certainly is certainly yes. Even though you'd seen it so many times it being in it yourself with the oxytocin. You're right in that model. That's, that's lovely. And so the next few months went fairly swimmingly. Well, would Did you are you done? I'm guessing the answer is no, based on what you said before, but you weren't sort of either going to feed for X number of months, or I'm going to feed for X amount of time. Did you have a goal in mind?
Lucy Cass 16:21
I think the sort of laid back side of me has developed because definitely, I think going into it, I did have goals I wanted to I wanted to breastfeed for at least six months. And then I got to six months. And I thought, well, this is going fine. So I'll keep going. And I thought, well, let's get to a year and then I got to a year. And then that was when everything changed for me in terms of feeling open about my breastfeeding journey. I think once she went beyond a year has I definitely started sort of feel that change in culture. But it was working for me and it was working for her and there was no reason to stop. And it definitely it mean for her it was what was getting her to sleep. It was what was getting her back to sleep if she woke at night. So we kept going.
Emma Pickett 17:07
Yeah, and when you say changing culture, you mean comments from other people or difficulty returning to work? What was happening?
Lucy Cass 17:15
You know, I think everything to be honest, just you could sense a general shift. I could just sense that. People who would previously kind of be cheerleaders a bit and say how amazing it is your breastfeeding kind of would just, it just went a bit more silent. Really. There definitely were comments at times, even even from family members. And it just I think it's hard because in my family I haven't I have members of my family that have breast fed members that haven't. And so there's just a kind of no one had done what I'd done. No one had kept going beyond that point. And so I think it was just something that was unusual.
Emma Pickett 17:59
Yeah, yeah. Gosh, that that very vivid image of the same people that were your cheerleaders going quiet, rise and fall with that description. Just going silent. Not No, not saying anything, necessarily. But or no. But it's that silence that speaks volumes.
Lucy Cass 18:17
Yeah. Yeah, I very vividly remember. And I think that's when I really found Alicia League. Because I think prior to that, in a way I hadn't felt a need to reach out for support, because in terms of the breastfeeding things were going well, and I was quite happy. And then I vividly remember going to a Lashay League meeting when I was probably about 14 months old, and just bursting into tears when they came to me. And I said, I didn't expect to cry. I said, I think I'm just here because I suddenly feel like I'm isolated for breastfeeding. Whereas before I felt like I was empowered. And then suddenly it felt this this shift. Yeah, and it was just lovely to find that group of people that were doing the same thing and made you realise that you really weren't alone. And but it definitely feels like a little secret society of people. Breastfeeding toddlers.
Emma Pickett 19:13
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's definitely true. And I think in parts of the country even harder than others, I mean, there are obviously pockets of the internet what you know, big Facebook groups with 40,000 members were, you know, getting to 14 months love you're just getting started. There are people breastfeeding, you know, seven or eight year olds and those groups without blinking and, but in everyday real life, so many people say I literally don't know anybody else in real life. I'm the only person I know. And that's why literally is so valuable because that's an organisation that historically has always been very supportive of natural turn breastfeeding and, you know, going to a physical meeting and you know, or a zoom call where you're physically seeing people's faces makes such a difference. And it really does that description of bursting into tears. I so recognise that there's almost it's not necessarily you're crying, because you're sad. It's almost crying for relief, you know, people around you and suddenly you, you know that you're safe and you can let out these feelings that you've been holding in and and yeah, there's a there's a sort of there's a lot of tears, I think in those kinds of situations just because there's so many big feelings. Yeah. And knowing that everybody in the room absolutely gets you and gets where you're coming from. And that's why those those support groups can be so important and valuable. So you were going to physical meetings at this point, they hadn't sort of stayed on Zoom like they had in some areas.
Lucy Cass 20:28
No. So I was going to physical meetings. Were very, I'm very lucky. There's a very active group near me. So they have a weekly meeting, and is kind of like a mother support meeting. So it's like a group circle conversation, sort of meeting with cups of tea. And then there's also another meeting, run by some of the same leaders that happens once a month, which is toddlers. Well, that's great. Yeah, it's been really it's been really good. I mean, unfortunately, it happens that that one now falls on one of the days that I work, so I don't get to go as often. But I still, you know, have their have their socials. And we had a little we made a WhatsApp group for the toddler mums, which has been really wonderful.
Emma Pickett 21:09
Yeah, I bet. I bet. So. So you had that lovely support network. And then at some point, you got pregnant again, helped me with the timetable? When How old was joy when you fell pregnant?
Lucy Cass 21:18
So pretty much around around Joyce second birthday, I think we probably found out we were pregnant. A little while after, okay, after Joy's second birthday.
Emma Pickett 21:29
So was that a surprise?
Lucy Cass 21:33
We we were we were planning but it just happened a lot quicker than we expected. I think, again, midwife brain but in my job, you know, I look after a huge relative of families and stories, and it's not uncommon ly hear stories of mums who've come to their booking appointment with their second pregnancy, and they've had a struggle conceiving their second child, or it's hard not to take those things in and, and kind of, you know, assume they might happen to you or feel affected by them, I suppose. And so when we were when we were thinking that we might like a second, I remember giving, giving ourselves quite a large timeline and saying, Well, let's start start thinking about it now. And then if it doesn't happen, we've got a couple of years, and that would, you know, kind of allowing myself for a really long period of time. And then it happened incredibly quickly, quicker than joy. So it definitely was a shock to an extent.
Emma Pickett 22:28
Yeah, yeah. And it's useful if you don't mind me, being nosy about to learn a bit more about what was happening to the menstrual cycle, because I think there's a lot of there's so much variation with fertility and breastfeeding, and lots of people think that you can't get pregnant while breastfeeding. And then there are also some people that think, Oh, you don't need to have a cycle, you'll just magically fall pregnant, really? Because everyone ovulates before they have their first period, where were you with your menstrual cycle? What was your situation?
Lucy Cass 22:52
So my cycle didn't come back until Joy was about 17/18 months old. And I think, from memory that kind of tied in with just slightly longer gaps at night, between feeds, and she was still feeding at night, but it certainly wasn't as often. I think it we were kind of down to maybe one wake up or one wake up that felt like the middle of the night anyway, I think she was doing one, probably about five or six. And I think around that time was when my cycle came back. And from memory, I think it was pretty regular when it came down.
Emma Pickett 23:30
Okay. And then she was fit. So she's feeding maybe once at night, and you were working at this point, how many days were you working?
Lucy Cass 23:38
So I work half time hours. So I do about 18? And a bit hours a week. So that varies between two or three shifts, depending where I am.
Emma Pickett 23:46
Okay. And then what was her typical breastfeeding pattern around the time that you fell pregnant?
Lucy Cass 23:52
So I think I was kind of working along the route of the don't offer Don't refuse at that point. So some days, she would maybe have a couple of snacky feeds in the day. And other days, she might only have a bedtime feed, it would kind of depend on what kind of a day we were having. Really, if we were out and about in busy, she often wouldn't, wouldn't really think about it. And then if we were at home all day, she might ask for it maybe three times and she'd just pop on for 15 minutes and have a cuddle and then we'd carry on.
Emma Pickett 24:24
Okay, but always a bedtime feed. Was that a sort of part of your ways?
Lucy Cass 24:28
Absolutely. Yeah. So that was something that really didn't change at all until that that was probably the first and only paradigm change that I made was once she turned to we try to gradually change that.
Emma Pickett 24:45
Okay. Yeah, look forward to hearing more about that. So yeah, so you fell pregnant, I'm guessing because of your previous experience with with sickness. You had a slight moment of panic thinking, Yes, I'm still breastfeeding. What am I going to do and, and tell me about that kind of mindset. that you were in at the moment of finding out you're pregnant.
Lucy Cass 25:02
Yeah, completely. I, I think at the time that we decided that we would even try, I remember thinking, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to think about weaning, which I had mixed emotions about. But I also knew that we wanted another and that there would be something that that we would want to do. So I definitely had it had a bit of a wobble about whether or not I would need to enjoy and kind of kind of hoping that I wouldn't, but also thinking how on earth do I, how on earth do I keep feeding her if I'm feeling as nauseated as I did with her in pregnancy? And particularly if I'm if I'm actually being sick, I was quite worried about how that would affect her. And what she would think and if she'd be worried, because she's quite, she's quite emotionally intelligent. She really picks up on subtle things, she'll often look at my face in a certain way, and just say you Okay, Mommy? Oh, wow. So she's, she's very tuned in and I just thought, gosh, she sees me being sick, as you know, is that going to upset her? Or if she were to link that, to me being pregnant, that how is that going to make her feel about the pregnancy,
Emma Pickett 26:08
so you were thinking, I'm gonna need to make some changes. And you're already doing don't offer don't refuse. So what felt like the next step for you at that point?
Lucy Cass 26:17
So I think it was around that time, because it was around her second birthday, which we switched her cot into a cot bed. And that was, that was pretty much the start of the of the changing, being a little bit more parent LED. Up until that point, I'd pretty much just kind of rolled with it. But that in itself, had pretty much led to only bedtime and overnight feeding. By the age of two, she was too distracted being a two year old to kind of be too, too interested in in feeding actually, most of the time in the day. So that was kind of the only thing left to do really was to start making bedtime changes. Which in itself was quite terrifying. Because while what we were doing was something that I knew I wanted to change, I also had no idea how and where to start.
Emma Pickett 27:12
Yeah, yeah, you're definitely not alone in that. So when you say terrifying, thank you for using that word. Because I think that is a word that that reflects how a lot of people feel and let's drill down into what actually is terrifying. So for so for many people I work with, it's the idea that you are going to cause your child distress. It's the idea of it being very, very sad. And it's your fault. And you've made the decision to change this. And you are literally the one making your child very sad for your own selfish reasons. I mean, that's me. Yeah, rephrasing in a horrible, stupid, simplistic way. But there's a combination of guilt and fear of them being sad, and not knowing if you've got the skills to settle them without breastfeeding, a sort of combination of being de-skilled, and being to blame at the same time. Add into that, what was your feeling about what was terrifying for you?
Lucy Cass 27:59
Yeah, absolutely. I think you sort of hit the nail on the head in that you definitely have a lot of guilt around. Am I doing it for the right reasons? Is she ready for it? And part of it for me was how will bedtime look now, because up until that point, she was still doing the same thing that we'd been doing for a very long time, but it worked, which was that she would, she would have a bedtime routine with her bath. And then she would come and sit in the armchair in her room with me and have a breastfeed and she would feed to sleep. And then I would lower her into her cot. And of course, the bigger she got that was getting more and more difficult physically. But it was it was going to be a big change to try and what what my goal was at that point was to try and get her to fall asleep without the breast in her mouth. So I was still quite happy to breastfeed her and do a bedtime feed. But I was hoping that I was going to be able to try and work away in which she could cuddle to sleep after breastfeed just to try and start a little bit of a separation between falling asleep and, and nursing itself.
Emma Pickett 29:07
How did that go? Tell me so. So did you read any materials? Did you you had your did you have your weaning picture books at this point? What were you doing to sort of prepare yourself before you got started?
Lucy Cass 29:16
So I'm a bit hazy on the timeline, I think because we did it because I did it so slowly. But from I think I probably started looking at weaning books before she turned to because I knew that it was something I think beyond two that I felt that I would be ready to think about stopping I'd never felt ready at all until she until she turned to and I think where she'd kind of lost interest a bit more during the day. It's the first time that the thought of weaning had even felt okay at all, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. emotionally. I sort of thought actually, maybe I do feel ready. Maybe I should explore how I'm going to do it. And so I think I'd actually watched your video where you'd read some of the winning books, which was really helpful because I knew a little bit about which ones I was going to go with. So we'd been reading weaning books for a little while,
Emma Pickett 30:11
which are the ones that connected with you particularly, you mentioned Booby Moon?
Lucy Cass 30:14
Yeah.
Emma Pickett 30:15
Tell us a bit more about that. For anyone who's not read that book. How, what's that book about? And how does it sort of feel for you and Joy?
Lucy Cass 30:21
So I liked elements of Booby Moon. But there were bits of it where I kind of reworded I didn't, I didn't like the bit where it sort of talks about there's a picture of the baby looking quite sad in the cot, and they talk about you know, boobie moon won't wake, no matter, no matter the noise I make. And I thought, well, I don't, I didn't like i. So I've changed the words on that page and kind of skim skimmed over that. But I liked the idea of, I think I liked the idea of the ritual of it. I liked the idea that there was something that would mark the transition to her weaning. And Joy has always been very interested in baby, she's always thought babies are lovely. And so she she liked the idea of the moon going to the new babies. And so she quite liked the book for that reason. But the other two that we read, which we read, My milk will go, Our love will grow, which I loved. I loved that one. That was probably my favourite.
Emma Pickett 31:18
That's often a one for mums. It's funny, you mentioned that lots of people told me that's the one that they emotionally connected.
Lucy Cass 31:23
Yes, absolutely. Joy was less fussed.
Emma Pickett 31:27
And hey, let's let's celebrate that. Why not? Why can't the winning books be for us? Why do they have to be for the kids? Because we're saying goodbye to something where, you know, we're the one we're losing just as much as they are. So yeah.
Lucy Cass 31:37
But I think what I loved about that book is it gave me permission to share my emotions about it with joy. Because the mom in that book really talks about, you know, mommy will miss it too. And I feel sad too. And I'm sorry for this change. And I almost quoted that book. At times when I was doing making those changes with her. As I said to her, I would say to her, I'm sorry for this change. You know, I love you so much. And I liked that that book, I think it almost took some of that guilt off of me, because she in that book says that my body can't make any more milk. And actually, we'll move on to that later, I'm sure but that that was eventually what happened was when I got to about 17 weeks pregnant, it just my supply just vanished. which I found really hard. But I felt like Joy was actually relatively prepared for because we've been reading this book about my body can't make more. And instead of when that happened, she almost wasn't as surprised as I was. Yep.
Emma Pickett 32:39
So. So that was the sort of explanation you gave to her if I was to say, What did you say to joy was the reason for things changing? Is that sort of the sort of thing you would say? How would you explain it to her?
Lucy Cass 32:50
I said that my body wouldn't be able to make any more. And the other the other book was the one about Jack.. What's that one called?
Emma Pickett 33:00
I know the one you mean,
Lucy Cass 33:01
Loving comfort
Emma Pickett 33:03
Yeah, similar vibe to that I love well grow one, then yes. Isn't it's a lot about kind of the relationship changing.
Lucy Cass 33:09
And yeah, and him and him growing up and joy really connected to that book. She loved it a lot and used to even when we didn't have the book, when she was eventually cuddling to sleep, she would ask for me to talk about Jack. And I would repeat that last page to her a lot where it says even though Jack no longer has mommy milk, he can still hear the thump thump of mommy's heart and he can still enjoy her cuddles. And she would love that.
Emma Pickett 33:37
So you said milk would go but you didn't necessarily have a particular timeframe in mind. You just sort of she just had a sense it was going to go at some point in the meeting.
Lucy Cass 33:47
And it was something that I struggled with actually because I as we've spoken about really i i didn't like the idea of having a strict timeline. But I also was worried that I wasn't doing the best thing for joy by not having a timeline. I don't know, I was worried that she would kind of be like, well, when is it going? When is it going? Because I talked to her about it going but I wouldn't sort of say on Saturday it's going
Emma Pickett 34:11
Yeah, I think you know Joy better than anybody. And I think if if you obviously got it right, because it ended peacefully and lovingly and she was obviously very accepting of that. So whatever you did, you must have got it right. Because you knew her and you knew what was right for her. I think I think you're right that some children would find that level of uncertainty and tagging, you know, worrying and yeah, what do you mean it's going when, when when, you know, and they make it a resurgence and feeding but actually, from what you've said, it sounds as though she'd already had something else meeting her emotional needs anyway, that her daytime feeds that really de escalated. She wasn't doing a lot of requests in the day. It's really clear that she was probably not massively far away from self weaning. Anyway, she's not one of these two year olds that was probably five years away from self weaning. She was she was beginning to you know find something else to meet her needs. So that probably helped with her acceptance and her sense that yeah, I can I'm okay with not having a timeline because I sort of sensor on the way out anyway. But it sounds as though the bedtime routine was probably the biggest barrier. So she literally was didn't know how else to fall asleep. I mean, it was very much her familiarity. So. So what did you do to change that? Let's talk about the specific for the bedtime. So you were feeding in a chair, you were lifting her into a cart? What did you begin to do differently? Were you staying on the chair finishing the feed, leaving her awake before you moved on the cart? What were you doing?
Lucy Cass 35:33
So so what we did was we took, I took the side of her cot, and moved bedtime completely into her cot, which I liked, because I felt like it started to make her cot and her bed space, more of a cosy inviting space rather than a kind of feeling like a space that she was waking up in wondering where I'd gone, she has now going to sleep in that space, which was nice. But the only way for her to go to sleep in that space was to move me into it too. So so what we did was I would we did milk for 10. And that worked incredibly well, in that we I think, again, I'm a bit hazy on timelines. From memory. I do think that I did milk for 10 in the daytime at one point.
Emma Pickett 36:20
So milk for 10. So you're counting down from 10? Are you Yeah, counting, counting up to 10?
Lucy Cass 36:26
Okay, yeah. And she just bizarrely took to it really well, and that she kind of just came off when I got to 10. The first time I tried it, I was like, wow, okay, that worked. And she, I think the first time I ever did, it was just as a daytime feed. And I don't even remember kind of saying to her, when I get to 10, you need to come off. I think I just tried doing this count to 10. And when I got to 10 It was almost like a game and she'd kind of just pop off and carry on with her day. So I think at some point along the timeline, I did introduce a bit of milk for 10 during the daytime. Just a good idea. Yeah, just to kind of play with it.
Emma Pickett 37:05
Yeah, so she's familiar with the concept. It's not a time when she's tired, over tired, tired, more anxious, introducing that concept in the daytime is a really good idea. So you'll see brought that then into the bedtime. Yeah, so you were feeding in the chair, then moving her into the bed, or you were lying next to her in the bed
Lucy Cass 37:21
lying next to her feeding her and counting to 10. To start with incredibly slowly. As I say my weaning journey overall has taken from that first change when she turned to have taken the side off. She's now almost two and a half. So it took about four or five months in total. So it was incredibly slow and lots of so the counting to 10. I think probably the first time I did it was taking 20 minutes because I was I was counting to 10 while reading a book, because she'd never really had a bedtime story while feeding. And I wanted that to become part of her sleep. So we would, I would lie feeding her logistically is quite tricky. But I was lying feeding her reading a book. And then I was sort of, I would say write one, two, and we'd read two pages, and then I'd turn the page. And as I turned the page, I'd say three, four, and then we'd read that page, and then I'd turn the next page. And so actually 10 took the entire book. But it meant that when we got to the end of the book, I would say 10 And then she'd come off. But it was definitely there was about three or four nights when I first did that, that it was hard. And I questioned myself a lot where she would she was very upset about it.
Emma Pickett 38:41
So you got to 10 and she was upset and didn't want to come off or ask him to go back on how did that manifest.
Lucy Cass 38:48
So she would she would come off and I would say, you know cuddles now when I'd cuddle her. And that's when I'd sort of say things from the book. Like I'm so sorry for this change. You know, I kept telling her I loved her. But it was really hard. There was there was times where I thought gosh, is this the right thing to be doing? Is there any other way of doing it? But she she did settle? And actually I think probably if I'd have put a timer on the upset period was probably only about five minutes. When you're in it with a toddler who you've never let get to that it was hard. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 39:25
Yeah. Were you ever tempted to just to put her back on again? It's definitely
Lucy Cass 39:30
definitely but
Emma Pickett 39:31
you'd be you didn't or you did?
Lucy Cass 39:33
Oh, gosh, can't remember now. I don't think I did. I think gosh, thinking back I think what I used to do at times was probably do, she'd have 10 each side, I think and then probably towards the end she'd probably only have 10 altogether. So I think that helped because she kind of get the warning in that she'd get 10 come off and then she'd say other side now mommy, that I'd give her the other side for 10. And so I think that probably he'd helped a little bit that it was almost a warning. Yeah,
Emma Pickett 40:03
kind of doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your experience of using sort of, I mean, I know you weren't in on a floor bed because you were actually in her cart. But I'd say that's, that's a really common method that works well for families. So previously, when you were feeding to sleep and lowering into a cart to then move to lying next to her, really helps, I think you have her that sense of her being connected to you and close to you. And did did she react differently in the day? Was there anything going on because of these changes? Did you feel she was cleaning her in the day? Was she asking for more breastfeeds in the day, or? Not so much?
Lucy Cass 40:34
Not so much. I think they've definitely been the odd occasion where she would ask him the day. But I think at that point, she hadn't had it in the day so much that I may have even put a boundary there at that point and, and kind of said, I want to have it a bedtime was actually ironically, I think once we've managed to stop her feeding to sleep, and we will, and I was much further down the weaning line, if probably if she had have asked during the day, those points or would have been like, yeah, okay, please do because I was feeling
Emma Pickett 41:07
because you were feeling a bit wobbly about Yeah, going through the process.
Lucy Cass 41:10
Yeah. But yeah, it's, for example, the morning feed sort of lingered on, as it does for most really. But that that was one that even after we'd pretty much dropped the feeding at bedtime, she would do that morning one. And that was the one that I kind of clung on to a bit longer. And that and to be honest, it was probably that feed that made me think, well, this would be fine. I don't really mind just carrying on doing this. And then my supply went, and then by about 20 to 23 weeks, I started for the first time to experience quite bad aversions. Okay, and and pain. And then that's when I kind of knew that I had to, I had to probably think about finishing. Yeah,
Emma Pickett 41:58
I'm sorry, you had that experience. So that? Yeah, I mean, it's not universal in pregnancy, but it's definitely common to have that experience. So yeah. So before I ask you a bit more about them finishing off with the morning feed, so she was doing the bedtime feeds, you were doing the count to 10 the counting was getting quicker and shorter. The feeds were getting shorter, but she was ending not on the breasts. So she was coming off and just cuddling at that point. So she was fully cuddling. Yeah, falling asleep, cuddling, okay. And then in the morning, she's in another room, you went to sleep. So you go to sleep in a different room, you hear her wake up, you come through and you were doing a feed in her room, again, lying down next to
Lucy Cass 42:33
her and the court actually don't generally in our room, so she would. Around that time was the first time ever in her life that she'd slept. I say through loosely because I think it depends what you consider through but when I first stopped her from falling asleep on the breath, she was still waking at night. And that that was a bit of a difficult time as well, because I was then still feeding her. I was getting into her bed feeding her but doing the countdown to 10. And I think those were the ones where she was most upset because she was half asleep.
Emma Pickett 43:05
So this is the middle of the night. You're doing the countdown and then break off and cuddling. Yeah, okay,
Lucy Cass 43:09
compared to those bedtime Break, break offs, where she was she was coping much better with those folks. I think she was just in a more awake headspace. Whereas when she was waking in the night she was, you know, more confused, I suppose. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 43:24
So you don't count to 10. And then cuddling her in the middle of the night and still only five minutes of distress not extended? Yeah, yeah,
Lucy Cass 43:31
still only and, and I my memory of that is only ever it been about three or four nights of it being like that. Thank goodness, because I think had it had been longer, I probably would have questioned myself a lot more. And while I would have I probably would have changed tactic in some way because I think I would have struggled. But thankfully she she did adjust to it a lot quicker than I'd anticipated actually.
Emma Pickett 43:54
And then the morning, she was then coming through to you for that morning.
Lucy Cass 43:57
Yeah, in the morning. I'd sort of scooped her up and she'd asked to come into our room, and then I'd lie in bed with her in our bed and she'd have a feed then. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 44:07
And then just tell me a little bit about what how your partner was involved in this process. I mean, very, it's very clear that you were very much taking the lead here and you wanted to be there to support her through this. Were there ways in which your partner sort of helped out? Was he also talking to joy about what was happening?
Lucy Cass 44:23
Yeah, yeah. So he would talk to her and he would read the winning books in the daytime if she was interested. I mean, we kind of have books downstairs and those books are on the shelf and if she wanted to read one he'd read in generally, the biggest support that he's always given is just supporting me and reassuring me that it's okay and it's working fine. And you know, if I got back in, got back into bed in the early hours after after sort of resettling her with a cuddly like how did it go? Sour she can go to sleep and she went off but she she was okay, this is well done. And it just, you know, just that Little things having that little cheerleader.
Emma Pickett 45:02
Yeah, that's that's special. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, just before we started recording session, I saw him helping me out with headphones, I could tell he was obviously a helpful bloke. So, so the bedtime feed ended up being shorter and shorter and shorter. How did it finally go? That bedtime feed?
Lucy Cass 45:18
Oh, gosh, you know, trying to remember really, I think, Oh, how did I do that? See, I
Emma Pickett 45:24
kind of don't know, actually. Because it means it was so gentle and slow. You literally can't even tell me. So it wasn't like one day where you said, right tonight, I'm not even gonna count at all. It just what did you just forget one night? I mean, it just becomes so
Lucy Cass 45:39
I think I've probably yeah, I've even just looked at my little notes I made to think and I remember, I think, you know, I was just counting quicker and quicker. And I think a lot of the final push on the weaning was, was the pregnancy, changing my supply. Because I think 100% If I wasn't pregnant, I probably would still be feeding her. Which is something that sometimes I struggle with, because there are times where I think, you know, there are moments in her life now where she has a has a meltdown. And I think, Oh, if I could just feed her now that'd be easier. This. So I think it was probably around that 1617 week mark, where I'd realised that there really wasn't anything in there. And I'd been suspicious for a while because I'd noticed that her feeding had changed. When she was feeding, it was a lot more sucking and a lot less pausing. And kind of it just felt like she was doing that comfort feed. And I saw I started to suspect that it would that it was going and like sometimes ask her if there was any milk there. And she'd she sort of come off a look at me, she's she say there's a bit mummys a bit. But if I if I tried to hand Express, I couldn't get a single job. Which was shocked me, I think even though I kind of knew it might happen, I just thought where she was still feeding that I'd still have something, but it really, I just couldn't get a drop. And then quite quickly after that, for me. I know lots of people kind of can join us through it. But for me, it's us become quite painful. But that I could cope with I was kind of able to the count to 10 then almost became for my benefit. Yeah, it was almost my counting to 10 was like just do it for 10 Do it for 10. And it's okay. But I think noticing that change in my own head was almost the beginning of the final push for me realising that actually, that count for 10 was no longer about her. It was about me getting through that pain.
Emma Pickett 47:44
Yeah, yeah. And you've described a very switched on little joy. I wonder whether subconsciously she sensed that too. Maybe and that's why she put dragging it out. And, and she felt that was the right time for you to possibly,
Lucy Cass 47:57
I think I think you're probably right, because I think for for certain my body language must have changed, you know, that feed to 10 Rather than being this kind of relaxed feed, and then she'd pop off and enjoy a cuddle by that point. And the cuddle was like a nice thing. And it wasn't this kind of like, Oh, but I want milk she was she was quite happy with the routine of coming off at 10 Having a cuddle having a having a little chat or a song and going to sleep. But I think she noticed probably that that 10 was becoming. I mean, at times, I was probably literally going 1-234-567-8910 because I just couldn't tolerate it. And then subtly that pain change to aversion. And once I noticed that happening, I thought, Gosh, I really don't know how much longer I can cope with it. Yeah, it was quite strong when I tried magnesium creams and things. But I was noticing more and more that it was it was almost like it felt like it made me want to gag. Okay, and I hated that because I thought this is something that I loved. And I thought I can't let this be the way that this goes is me almost pushing her away. So I'd kind of tolerated it. I just did the counting for 10. And then. Yeah, I don't know, when I actually try and think of how that stuff. I really can't put a finger on it. Yeah,
Emma Pickett 49:17
I mean, it sounds as though maybe one day she just didn't happen for whatever reason. And that was it. And she you know, she was probably quite relieved when it finished in a way because she'd been watching you hold on with gritted teeth getting super quickly. And actually, you know, let's be grateful and thankful for the fact you'd started the process before that happened. And you'd already done all the preparation and all the count to 10 stuff. And you were just on that final leg when the aversion kicked in. I mean, that was certainly that was the universe setting you up for the easiest possible way of that finishing. Imagine if you had sort of said oh, I'm going to be down and feeding no problem at all. And suddenly 17 Yeah, that had happened. You know if anyone is listening to this and that is their ex ference, you know, appreciate how hard that must be. And, you know, there are people that can support you. So reach out for some lactation support. So in a way that that was that was lucky that that had happened in that timeframe not to say I would have wished that experience of aversion on anyone, but I'm really glad that you've done that preparation time. So you were still morning feeding and was the morning feeding also, gritting your teeth counting to 10.
Lucy Cass 50:22
Quickly, relatively, but this is what I found so bizarre about the aversion because it did seem to come and go at times, there were times where I'd put her on and be like, Oh, that actually doesn't feel as bad. And those feeds, I probably I still did count to 10, because it just had become such a part of how we fed by that point, that if I didn't count attention, she'd almost sort of come off or look at me like, Is this okay? If I'd forgotten and gone? Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah. But, yeah, there were occasional morning feeds where that 10 was able to be a bit slower. But in general, it was it was pretty quick by that point. And then, I think the final week that we fed, I remember, because on the Monday, she'd come in, in the morning, and I'd started to show her pictures on my phone of us breastfeeding. It when she was talking about milk, I would say, oh, you know, why don't we have a look at the pictures because there were pictures of her as a tiny newborn right up so more recent times. And she was able to look at those and she she basically stumbled across the video that I mentioned, she stumbled across a video of her as a newborn having her cord cut, which she was fascinated by now wants to cut cords and all her dollies have to have cords and clamps. And so she's fascinated by that. And then she just adores it, because she adores the bit where the cords cut, and then I scooped her up and I kiss her. And I just sort of do that lovely, just fresh mum thing where I just said, Oh, joy, and I just kissed her and snuggled her. And she'd look at me when she watches that video. And she'd say, Oh, joy, like this bit mummy? And then I would say do you want to do it? And she'd say, Yeah, and so then I'd scoop her up, and I was in the bed like I was in the video. And so we'd almost act that bit out. And I'd done that on the Monday morning and she'd had a feed. And it was just lovely. And I said to her, you know, maybe this is the last one joy. And she didn't really say anything. She just kind of carried on and we got to 10 then that was that. And I sort of went about my day thinking I wonder I wonder if that is so we'll see what happens. And that would be the perfect ending, wouldn't it but it didn't quite unfortunately, that wasn't quite the last feed. What actually happened was later that week, I'd been at work and she she's looked after by either my mum or my mother in law when I'm at work. I'd got home from work and she was overtired and had a just mad day full of excitement and had a had a bit of a meltdown about something I can't remember. I think it was where she was sitting for dinner or something. But she was inconsolable. And so I offered her milk. Kind of out of not really knowing how else to calm her at that point. And that ended up being our last feed. Little did I know, but it was, so she fed to sort of settle there. But it was. Yeah, it's one of the things that I feel a bit sad about. I wish it was the Monday because that was so much more. Sort of gentle and nice. And yeah.
Emma Pickett 53:32
Yeah. That can be the official last feed. I didn't see what we
Lucy Cass 53:36
were just gloss over this.
Emma Pickett 53:39
So you mentioned that. So that's Thursday after work meltdown thing? Have you had meltdowns the last three or four weeks? And you've had to deal with them in different ways? What do you do now breastfeeding isn't in your pocket anymore.
Lucy Cass 53:52
Lots of cuddling lots of you know, I try my I try my hardest to follow that gentle route of labelling the emotion really with her. And so I sort of try and say to her things like, so at times where I say, my first thing is to say do you want to cuddle? And a lot of the times she used to say yes, whereas more recently, she's she's at the total level where she'll say no, and she'll run off and throw herself on the floor. And so then I go down the route of saying, Well, I'm here if you need me, you know, I think you're feeling sad, or I think you're feeling frustrated. Is it because of this those sorts of things. And generally, what happens is that she will then come to me in her own time and have a cuddle. And then we just talk about how she's feeling really. And that tends to work. And I think what's nice about that, is that something that me and my husband can do in the same way. Yeah. Which is definitely meant that we can equal out our roles more which has been nice for him as well. I think he's he's been such a cheerleader for me throughout the whole process. But I think he's probably nice for him to feel like he can do things in the same way for a change.
Emma Pickett 55:02
Yeah, for sure. So, so with Sprinkle, are you planning another home birth? What do you? What do you envisage happening for your next birth? And where is Joy going to be? Is she going to cut the cord? That's the question.
Lucy Cass 55:16
Do you know so, I mean, yeah, hopefully. So that the plan, the plan is for home birth, if all goes well, and the pregnancy continues to be straightforward. In my experience working in home birth, generally, what I find is that mums who already have children don't go into labour until those children are either at school or asleep, or so I'm hoping that's what happens. We'll sort of have a plan A and B with with probably mums, if if it happens in the day, and she's not, you know, if she's wanting to kind of not be there, but I'm also I would like her to be there in a way because she's so interested and she's so involved in she, she likes talking to the bum, but she likes the whole cutting the cord thing. And when the midwife comes to our house, she likes getting involved. And so I think I will just read it on the day and see how she is because if she's asleep, that would be wonderful, because then we can kind of, you know, wake her at the right time. And, and, and bring her down once once baby's there. But I've I've seen all kinds of home births in my career, and actually, the ones with children are often I think, not what people imagine people imagine them to be overwhelmed or frightened. And actually, they just take the lead from the adults in the room and they generally just think it's incredible.
Emma Pickett 56:44
Yeah, that was, that was my experience. So my son, three, three oh gosh, three years, two months can't remember exactly when his sister was born. It was a home birth, he was in the room. We didn't have time for him to be in the room because his childcare didn't turn up. It was too quick. And the midwives were literally coming to the door as I was crowning. Because I was like, wow. So he was pretty much my birth attendant. I did have my husband was with me as well. But he was he was so calm. He was so calm. And I remember him whispering in my ear. You can do it, Mommy. Oh, my only request is that we turned off the kangaroo koala brothers, which was on TV at the time. Yeah, but yeah, he was. Yeah, this is a conversation for another podcast. But yes, I definitely wonderful. I would definitely support the view that little people can be part of the birth experience. Yeah, it can be incredibly positive and special. And yeah, that's true for us. He's now studying biology at university. I don't know if that's connected. Yeah, so yeah. Well, I really hope that happens and that you have that magic first feed with spring. Yeah, let's see what happens with your feeding with joy and whether she asked her again, but it sounds like you're doing a brilliant job meeting her needs without breastfeeding. And it may well be that by then breastfeeding for her as a loving memory rather than something that day to day experience.
Lucy Cass 58:05
Yeah, once we actually sent it about three weeks after that final feed, we did a bit of a ritual. I don't quite have time to talk about it.
Emma Pickett 58:14
Yeah, go on. Did you send a balloon up in the sky like Booby Moon, what were you What were you doing?
Lucy Cass 58:21
Yeah, so something like that. I I mean, the balloon is tricky isn't it because of environmental things. So what we had done was I found this lovely little bubble blower that's it looks like a kazoo. But it blows bubbles. So I bought a bubble blower and we stuck some star stickers on it. And we spoke for a while about you know, blowing the magic back to the moon. And then she would look out of her window at night and say is the moon there tonight is the moon that night. And it wasn't because it's just typical. You Never Noticed the cycle of the moon until you need it. So we so we did have to wait about three weeks to get a really good moon that wish you could actually see from her window or we you know, that we could see and it was actually I liked that it was about three weeks because it meant that I had that three week buffer between that last feed and actually making that decision to to perform the kind of ritual and say goodbye properly and market so it meant that I had that kind of window of well, if she really asks again, then I could go back or you know, I could change change tactic and I think Tom said to me at that point, you know, it's not a problem. You can tantum feed if you want I said no I know I know. And actually him saying that maybe go Yeah, well, you know, we'll see was but the moon the moon came and there was it was a weekend so it was kind of perfect timing. And I had slowly put together a bit of a box for her so I did the moon boobie Moon Ritual, but with a few additions of my own. So we we went outside and we popped some fairy lights on the ground. went in a little circle and we sat in well stood in a circle, it was cold. And, and we blew bubbles to the moon, and just sort of said goodbye to mommy milk. And I just gave her a cuddle. I mean, of course, I cried only a little bit, only a little bit. I don't think she even noticed I cried because I was like, I can't. I didn't want her to see that it was something but it wasn't almost sadness. It was just emotion. It was just, you know, it was an emotional time rather than it being a sad time, I would say. And then we came back in side and basically my, I've been at work that day. But I said to my husband, I wanted to do that. When I get in, I'd finished I'd it's been a short shift. So I was home about three, four o'clock. And so during the day, that day, my husband and Joy had made a cake and decorated it with boobies and moons with icing and she put all these sprinkles on it. And so we we came in after blowing the bubbles, and he lit candles on the cake. And obviously I knew about the cake, but she didn't know that I knew about the cake. So she came out with the candles lit with me and we sort of and then she said to me sing a song mummy. That's like I don't have a song.
Emma Pickett 1:01:19
I don't have a song, right? Come on Lucy and provide a song about weaning.
Lucy Cass 1:01:23
I know. I should have written something. So I ended up singing to the tune of Happy birthday. Happy moon day. Oh, sorry. We sang Happy moon day. And then join I blew the candles out. And then we sat and ate cake.
Emma Pickett 1:01:40
Oh, that's magic. It was really lovely. I actually love the idea of actually just waiting for the moon to show up. Because that's one of things that terrifies me about Booby Moon is that, you know if you especially if you follow it to the letter and you do it on your birthday, which I don't think is screwed you absolutely screwed if you live exactly Okay, and it's cloudy, no chance. So the idea of they're just waiting to see if the moon's out there is actually looking out the window. There's a nice element of that to the ritual as well just waiting for waiting for the right day. Oh, I love the circle of lights and the cake. It's magic. That's brilliant.
Lucy Cass 1:02:16
The next day we I say the final part was that I had put together a box for her. It's like a little little navy blue box with stars on it. And I put some things in the box. So when she woke up in the morning, she had a gift from the moon. So she had, we'd spoken about it leading up to it. Because we were waiting for the moon anyway. And I wanted it to be things that were special to her. So you know when we spoke about sending the milk the milk to the moon I said oh you know if you're if you're lucky, I think the moon might send you a present to say thank you for giving it your your milk back. You know, you know what do you think the moon would send you Joy?
Emma Pickett 1:02:58
What do you just take my notepad out? And what did the moon send?
Lucy Cass 1:03:02
the moon sent she got she got some chocolate. Let's get a little bit of chocolate magic stars because they are Moon chocolates. She got I wanted to I wanted to give her a soft toy because I wanted to give her something that felt like it was cuddly and nice and was associated with milk. So I ended up getting her a dragon. It was this gorgeous jellycat White Dragon with golden wings. And because I'm extra and I was so emotional about the whole thing I'd ordered this little ribbon for it with like a moon print on it. And I'd ordered a little gold. You know you get the milk milestone key ring. Yes. I mean, gold wasn't the colour for for the point we were at but it just looks nice on the dragon and that was fine. So I put this little gold milkdrop on the dragon's neck. And so she calls it her Moon dragon. And then the last thing was that I had I printed the photos and put them into this little sort of small size photo album. It's got about 50 pictures in it. And it's got all of her pictures of her feeding and so we call it the her mommy milk book. So that came back as well.
Emma Pickett 1:04:16
This is such a brilliant thing you've organised here Lucy I feel like we should this should be Lucy TM Well, this description. You could certainly make a little etsy business out of this
Lucy Cass 1:04:26
I did think about it. I thought how would I source all this stuff, but it really worked for her. It was lovely because then the next morning, she it was like Christmas, but she was also a little bit tentative because she saw this box there and she was like, oh, and and I could almost tell that for a few days. It was like it was sinking in that actually it is gone now. Yeah. And she was a bit kind of sensitive around the subject, but that it moved quite quickly past that. And now she in the mornings she'll come running in and go She's the time we'll just have a cuddle and talk about what we're going to do that day. But some, some mornings, she likes to look at the mummy milk book and we'll sit in look at the book instead.
Emma Pickett 1:05:07
That's actually really great. So when she's got that urge to feed, if I'm talking about another child possibly asking for a feed, a parent can say, well, we're not going to have milk. But let's remember mommy milk, let's, let's have a good one. Let's talk about how special it was. So you've got something to fill that space that really validates their feelings and acknowledge the value of what was happening and you're not dismissing it, you're not kind of brushing off to do something else. You're kind of leaning into that, which is really special. And, and I think this is a real advert for taking pictures because taking pictures is not indulgent. It's not just for the value to that for both of you.
Lucy Cass 1:05:40
Absolutely. And it's been invaluable for us. You know, and I think she's, she's definitely there are pictures now where she will look at and she'll say, Oh, this is Joyce favourite one or I'll say, oh, which one's mommy's favourite because there's like a picture of her about three months old on on the boob and smirking or laughing at me or something. And I sit and I always say, oh, that's Mommy's favourite picture. So sometimes she'll get the book out and be like, Daddy, this is mommy's favourite picture. And this is
Emma Pickett 1:06:08
Lucy, that's magic, really magic and, and even though you had that horrible experience, having a virgin at the end, gosh, you really pulled it back in terms of creating something beautiful, and, and special and, you know, emotionally meaningful. And that's just a gorgeous ending to that breastfeeding journey. And I hope you feel really proud of not only your breastfeeding experience, but how beautifully you managed to manage that ending. That was gorgeously done.
Lucy Cass 1:06:32
Thank you. Thank you. I think I had I had to, for me, as well as for her. It just felt it felt like it deserved something, you know, I felt like I'd done above and beyond what I thought I would do in terms of how long I would feed for particularly when it felt like it wasn't something as socially acceptable. But as I didn't care by the end. And so I think I just got to that point, then I thought, I feel like we have to mark this I couldn't just couldn't just especially when the last feed then wasn't this wonderful feed. But I always knew that I couldn't know when the last feed was because I didn't want to just have a feed where I personally felt really emotional throughout the entire feed. And I knew that I then would probably cry and it wouldn't be in the same way nice for her. So it was nice, because I think by that point, I'd had that kind of three week buffer of waiting for the right moon to really be there anyway. Which allowed me to rest with those emotions and sit in that feeling for a bit of time. Yeah. And then yeah, it just felt it was it was it was magical. And then something that was even more special. It was just mind blowing, really was that after she'd gone to bed. That night, I don't know if it happened everywhere in the country, or whether it was just where we were. But there was a halo around the moon because of the frost in the air. And it literally I went outside and took a picture. And I was just like, wow, it was like it was meant to be tonight that we did it. And then there's this beautiful halo around the moon. And I think I took a picture and I showed her the next day. I said look what the moon did after you went to bed. It's my gorgeous
Emma Pickett 1:08:10
ring of milk. Obviously that exactly,
Lucy Cass 1:08:12
obviously. So that's all that mummy love. And that's why it was so magic. It was Yeah. Oh, thank you. They see. Yeah. And I think that's why I wanted to share because I thought you know, I was so worried about weaning and how, how on earth I would make this change for this little person that I just adored feeding. But knowing that it would come to an end at some point and how I would do that in a way that was gentle and respectful. And I just thought no, it's listening to other people's stories on things like your podcast, and La Leche Leaugue were really supportive for me.
Emma Pickett 1:08:50
Yeah. Oh, I definitely know you'll have inspired some people today. I mean, you've had some really lovely practical ideas as well as some sharing some really valuable emotions. Thank you so much for your time, Lisa, really. And yeah, congratulations on such a beautiful ending and good luck with sprinkle in the next stages. And I'd be interested to hear how things work out whether joy is interested in video games and sprinkle arrives, but may not happen. I mean, you had such a lovely closure, maybe for her. That was the end of the chapter where we shall see. We'll watch this space.
Lucy Cass 1:09:18
I will let you know!Thank you so much.
Emma Pickett 1:09:22
Oh, great. Pleasure. Thanks, Lucy.
Emma Pickett 1:09:28
Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.
Emma Pickett 1:10:00
One final thing, I have a discount code for my podcast listeners for my last two books, the one on supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond and the one on supporting weaning or the transition from breastfeeding. If you go to the UK Jessica Kingsley press website which is uk.jkp.com and put in the code MMPE10. That's MM for makes milk P for Pickett E for Emma one zero, you'll get a 10% discount on checkout. Thank you.