Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard, will look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.
Emma Pickett 00:46
Thank you very much to Catherine for joining me today to talk about her breastfeeding and weaning journey. So we're going to have some in depth look at one person's story to hopefully give some other people some insights into what parent led weaning can look like. Catherine, tell us a little bit about yourself, where are you? What do you do? What's life outside breastfeeding?
Catherine 01:06
Hello, thank you for having me. I'm Catherine, I've got a few, I wear a few different sort of hats professionally. So I am a counsellor, a psychotherapeutic counsellor, although I'm bringing my practice to a close, because I'm about to have a second baby. And alongside that, since I've become a mother, I have been working as a gentle sleep consultant. So working with kind of very responsive, basically supporting families who don't want to sleep train, how to navigate their sleep. And I've also been running support circles in various ways. For mothers, I've recently set up a project called strap motherhood collective, which is kind of brings together a lot of that work, the support circles. And one of the focuses that I've had in those circles is weaning, which I'm sure we'll talk about as we get going kind of why I set those circles up. But that's been a important thing for me.
Emma Pickett 02:02
Okay, so, not to put too much pressure on you, you should be bloody fantastic at this parenting and weaning to any low pressure. So you're, you understand psychotherapy principles and, and gentle parenting and sleep and, and you know that you should be the expert, this is the story of how the expert does it. No pressure!
Catherine 02:20
Definitely. I've become very knowledge about all knowledgeable about all of these things, because I didn't know. And I need to know, that's just part of who I am.
Emma Pickett 02:29
So, yeah, gosh, you're not the only person that goes into these fields professionally, because that was their story. I think every person and breastfeeding support that I meet as often goes down the rabbit hole because of their own experiences. And you can't stop once you start learning about supporting early parenting with difficult to stop. Okay, so let's talk about your breastfeeding journey. So you're pregnant at the moment, you've got number two coming in a minute. And we might talk about that, later on how that feels to know that your second time around is happening. But let's talk about your feeding journey with your son, who is now nearly four. Tell us about how breastfeeding started with him and how those early months went?
Catherine 03:09
Yeah. So it was a really, it was a really tough start. He had a tongue tie, which luckily was picked up quite early, but meant that he lost a lot of weight initially. And we were sort of very touch and go in those early days. They were like all technically we should take you back into the hospital. But you know, if you can just gain an extra half a percent or something. I remember there being a lot of pressure on the sort of very specifics around the weight. And so we were put very quickly, I think maybe on maybe on his second day or third day, we were put on a triple feeding plan. So that involved me and my husband both involved in a feed because it would be I'd breastfeed and then I'd pump while my husband Tom did a cup feed. So sort of like wrapped Rowan up like a tiny little burrito because it was so messy and tried to feed him with a cup, which is a really difficult thing for both.
Emma Pickett 04:16
Yeah, cup feeding isn't easy. I mean, let alone the pressure and the the sort of emotional stuff you're dealing with when you're concerned about weight. I mean, cut feeding itself is tricky. I mean, tell us a little bit about did you get support to learn cut feeding? What was your sort of takeaways from that time?
Catherine 04:31
Yeah. So we were it was suggested to us by our midwife that that was a good route if I wanted to try to move towards exclusively breastfeeding. Ultimately, she I'm trying to think maybe that wasn't even maybe that wasn't even mentioned. I feel like they might have just said you should go up feed. And they so they showed us initially and then we went in with I'm so lucky where I am. We've got an amazing midwife led for maternity hospital, who offer a lot of postnatal support, so we went in, after a few days when we felt like we really just weren't getting any milk in from a cup. And they spent a lot of time kind of watching us do a couple of feeds and supporting us with that
Emma Pickett 05:18
Tongue tie and cup feeding don't normally go together very well, because for cup feeding, you know, you need that little tongue to extend and, and lap the milk. We're not sort of pouring the milk in was that yeah, possibly a barrier. When was the tongue tie picked up?
Catherine 05:33
It was picked up, I think he first had he, so he had it cut twice. And the first time was, I think, when he was 11 days old. So we had maybe, maybe over a week of doing with cut, feeding, trying to do the foot feeding. Without that having been? Yeah, I'm wondering if it was slightly earlier. But I've got 11 days in my mind. And that's really interesting, because actually, I hadn't connected at all that maybe some of the struggles that we had with the cup feeding was because he couldn't be using his tongue very well. I think my husband found it very frustrating that he knew that he shouldn't be pouring it. But also, Rowan was struggling. Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't made that connection. But it makes absolute sense. So it was yeah, it was picked up. I can't remember if a midwife said that it might be a possibility. I think my sister's little girl had had a tongue tie. So she may be flagged that it was something that I should look into. And we had, in the end of a private practitioner came to our house and checked and did the release kind of on the day, I think, partly because I think we would have been seen that the waiting list at that point on the NHS was was weeks, and I was in a lot of pain. So that just didn't seem feasible. And we initially, as part of the I was pumping as part of the feeding plan, but producing very little through pumping. So we were topping up with formula as well from the cup. And we did that for three weeks. And I remember when we were when we sort of checked in with the midwife and she said, so she, you know, the plan was you, you triple feed you feed pump and cut feed every three hours. And that's the plan. And that's what we did, because we'd been told that that was we had to do. And when we checked in with her and she said, You know, so how have you been going with the feeding plan? Has that been going like? Well, we've been feeding every three hours, kind of religiously. Oh, wow, well done! Well, everyone does that. I didn't realise that not being very strict was a possibility.
Emma Pickett 07:52
So her triple feeding plan was almost kind of an aspirational plan. And she wasn't necessarily expecting to do it. That's interesting, isn't it? So I almost sort of setting you up for not being able to succeed. And I mean, how did you feel about that conversation?
Catherine 08:07
Afterwards, I felt I probably took more about myself away from it, you know, that sense that oh, it literally hadn't occurred to me that I wouldn't just follow those instructions. Absolutely. To the letter, because I you know, I felt like my son's life basically depended on it. So of course, but those first three weeks were so hard. I mean, that early days are so hard for so many people for so many different reasons. But it was the whole we eventually it became a bit more efficient. But the whole, for the first week or so the whole process of a feed took about 90 minutes. So it meant the both of us were awake, really actively trying to do something every 90 minutes, 24 hours a day. And that was pretty. I mean, that was just very hard. But we did do it because in some senses, we're very strict rule followers, it turns out, yeah.
Emma Pickett 09:03
Well, well done following it. And as you say, it's not something everyone can manage. I mean, it's emotionally really hard. Lack of sleep term, really hard. And just intense, intense. I mean, triple feeding is something that always should be given. With an out you should always know what the timeframe is, you should always have a sense of like when we're being reviewed and reviewed, how long is this going to be going on for because it's just really, really difficult to manage? And when you have the tongue tied, done, then that was in the middle of that. Did you notice a big difference after the tongue tie procedure?
Catherine 09:32
Initially, yes, like he fared much better. And the pain pretty much disappeared for me, which was really wonderful because it had been really painful. But and this is a big, you know, it's something that I talk a lot about with parents now. I, I was given some aftercare advice in terms of kind of all play and that kind of thing. But I think a combination of being totally exhausted and overwhelmed and you not really being stressed to me that that was quite important. It meant that we didn't really do it. And he's, it grew back again, his tongue tie.
Emma Pickett 10:09
So you will find a massive difference in opinion on this winter around tongue tie practitioners. So the Association of Tongue Tie Practitioners in the UK doesn't really feel that there's strong evidence around different types of aftercare. There are practitioners in the UK who are quite big on aftercare and take that model maybe from an American practitioners view but, but actually, breastfeeding is the best aftercare and the idea that unties regrow, because you're not, you know, vigorous enough in what you're doing with your finger and your baby's mouth. Honestly, I'm not sure we can really say that. So, you know, I know that I'm not saying I'm an expert on this. I'm a generalist, I'm not a tongue tie specialists. But I wouldn't want you to feel that Rowan's tongue tie grew back, because you've had failed to do some sort of clever thing with your finger that prevented regrowth because I'm really not sure the evidence can say that is that that's supported. And really, the act of breastfeeding is the best practice. I mean, you know, you can do mirroring activities, you can stick your tongue out, you can play around, but some of the aftercare that people talk about where your wound, disrupting wounds and things, I really think we have to be very, very cautious about recommending that to parents, because the lack of evidence is a concern. And regrowth can happen for lots of different reasons. And when did you feel that the test was done?
Catherine 11:24
So it had returned, I think we had about six weeks of so at that three week review. At that point, they said, if you want to switch to using a bottle once a day, like we still want him to be be topped up. But if you want to switch to using bottled water today, you can do that. So we did that. And the competing was gone. And that was a great relief. And I started using a hacker thing, which I think subsequently I've read I could have been using that early, possibly. But
Emma Pickett 11:54
I mean, in terms of creating overproduction, you mean possibly, that is a pattern because lots of people,
Catherine 12:00
but luckily, that didn't happen. For us, it was just it meant I used that for every feed through the day. And that meant that I could collect enough nobody could ever talk about bottle with my husband.
Emma Pickett 12:11
Yeah, I mean, Hacker has a great role for some people that can really help out them. The main problems, I come across with it with a hacker and obviously other brands are available. The main problems I come across is people think they should be using it. And then maybe getting to the difficulties of positioning and attachment because they're not able to hold their baby close enough. Because the hackers on the other side, and we get all sorts of odd positioning happening and baby's bodies being too far away and things trying to accommodate the hacker. And then the other thing that we've just touched on is it quite often tips people into over supply, and people think it's just catching milk. It's not, it's exerting a little bit of negative pressure. And, and that means that your baby's not the one who drives your milk supply. There's an other additional stimulation that can cause complications. But sounds like it worked for you, which is great. I'm glad there's a positive story there.
Catherine 12:55
Yeah. So it's kind of slowly slowly, that started to feel a bit easier. And things improved. And I wasn't in pain, great. Have my first breastfeed outside of the house when he was about three weeks old, which was a really big moment. And then somewhere, maybe he was two to two or three months old, it started to get painful again. And we saw the same type practitioner and she said yes, unfortunately has been thrown, great sign for his future wound healing. But bad news for you. So she got it again, things improved. Again, it got less painful again. But again, probably a month or so after that. It got kind of on and off painful ish. And he continued to eat it. Eventually, I think somewhere around four months, things eased. And I just put that down to his mouth getting bigger,
Emma Pickett 13:57
and possibly his palate had dropped as well. And, you know, the shape of his mouth, you know, the rigid ridges on his hard bony palate, maybe change to there's all sorts of physiological things that can happen around that time. Gosh, you were a bit of a trooper, I mean, dealing with all this, this pain on an orphan. And the story ends with you breastfeeding beyond two years. So Wow. I mean, you're obviously a determined person, the same person that wants to follow the rules with triple feeding had a level of determination to keep going through all this. This discomfort? Yeah. What do you think? Is it about you that helped you to push through these difficulties?
Catherine 14:32
I mean, I think and this is I think this is probably an interesting, an interesting thing to talk about in the context of then ultimately, kind of how I came to parent led weaning, I think I definitely came into parenting with quite an overwhelming sense of I, I have a sense of kind of what is best for my baby and I will do that. You know, there was a bit of subjugating my own needs in that process or not subjugating them, but it didn't really occur to me that I would not do what I thought was the best thing, even if it was difficult, and I am pretty determined as well. So sort of once I, you know, got my brain fixed on what I wanted, that is what I was going to do.
Emma Pickett 15:18
And support network? Obviously, you talked about Tom supporting a lot in those early weeks. Did your support network make a difference?
Catherine 15:25
We have family, I have his family live quite close by but they were actually on holiday for a week or so when Rome was born. So they weren't around immediately. But we do have friends around and people who neighbours who dropped us meals. And you know, I think the first week we didn't have to cook, people who asked food and that was amazing. And there's a great that our first trip out of the house was to go to there's an organisation here called Gloucestershire breastfeeding supporters network, and they've got loads of people
Emma Pickett 15:59
I've met them. I did a talk a few years ago, brilliant team, really lucky to have that support.
Catherine 16:04
Yeah. So they were really helpful. And then I feel like this time, second time around, I'm gonna know what I need to ask for. And my support network is much sort of deeper, because I've been through early parenthood with people at this stage. So I feel kind of more confident about my support network this time. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 16:28
So you have overcome these initial problems, you're breastfeeding, solid start, you're pottering along through the next few months, any particular issues after the time had been resolved, and things got more comfortable because of growth and change?
Catherine 16:42
Not really. The only sort of issue was, I think it grew, I think it grew back again, I think, because he did his does still have them like heart tongue. And every time he was teething, his latch would get really shallow, and it would be very painful again, which was something that I kind of really tried to address, and eventually just said, like, this is just gonna happen, I'm just going to have a tough period that will then end, which almost all the way through, I think when we got up to kind of toddler molars, I definitely had a moment where I felt like, I think I'm gonna have to stop because I can't manage this. But that it, I just felt so sad about the idea of stopping before either of us were ready because I wasn't in the big picture. I wasn't, I didn't want to stop at that point. I just felt like I can't have this pain. But we did get through that. Because we always did, because it is a finite thing. But he's coming through. So that was the only kind of physical issue. And for a long time, it was a really wonderful. Yeah, like I I loved doing it. He loved it. It was an amazing tool.
Emma Pickett 18:00
Did you have any particular goals at this time? I mean, did you think in your mind how long you wanted to breastfeed for?
Catherine 18:05
No, I remember really early days, like sitting around with people from an NCT group. And somebody said, like, oh, how long are you going to breastfeed for? And everyone in the room seem to have something in their mind. But I didn't really I just felt like, well, I don't know. Because I don't know how it's I don't know what it's gonna be like. I remember thinking quite early on. I didn't know a lot of people with young children at that point. Hadn't been around a lot of babies. And a friend of mine who had a two year old was visiting us before maybe when I was pregnant, or maybe before I got pregnant. And her little girl said, at some point during lunch, like, I want some milk. And I jumped up and went to the fridge and said, Oh, get you some milk. And my friend looked a bit embarrassed and said, No, no, you can't help her with this kind of milk. And she hopped up onto her mom's lap and had a feed. And I I remember feeling like quite taken aback quite surprised. I I, I just wasn't around people who were breastfeeding, full stop, but also who were breastfeeding, longer term. And I remembered that when we had this NCT conversation, like I said, you know, before I was pregnant, I felt quite surprised by the idea of feeding a two year old. And now I can understand, you know, I wouldn't rule that out, maybe. So I didn't have a particular goal. I think I felt I felt sort of proud when I've got two milestones, but I didn't put one out for myself.
Emma Pickett 19:34
Yeah, that's interesting. I think I actually quite like the fact that you didn't do that. I think that's great. I think the fact you didn't feel you had to have some sort of label in your head and maybe because you'd had to overcome so many difficulties. That was a sort of perhaps a gift you gave yourself not to put some sort of artificial timeframe on it.
Catherine 19:52
Yeah. I think that sense of it feels quite arbitrary. It's not very based on how It's going well how it's feeling for you. If it's from the outside, maybe.
Emma Pickett 20:05
Yeah, giving yourself a freedom to make decisions as you go along, which I think is, is really important. That image of your friends, two year old, it's really interesting how many of us have got one of those images in our heads? So for me, it was somebody called Charlotte, one of my husband's university friends. And before I'd had kids, she came to visit for lunch and her two year old two year old plus kind of climbed up on her and it hadn't even occurred to me that was an option. I don't even know why it was just something that was looking okay. And I don't remember, I didn't kind of go go block or anything, but I remember thinking, Well, okay, brain reset. Yeah. And actually, um, we can be that for other people, you've probably you enrolled probably has been someone else's brain reset, and that, that really demonstrates how important visualisation and normalisation and getting out there not that we will have an obligation to, you know, sit in McDonald's breastfeeding our three year olds, but even if you just do once in front of somebody, you are making changes and changing future breastfeeding experiences. Yeah, which is so important. So. So at some point you've got through the molars you've got through the teething and all this physical pain, which I think you're amazing for dealing with. And at some point, you've you felt you needed to bring breastfeed to an end. Tell me a little bit about how you got to that place.
Catherine 21:18
Yeah, so I think I started really feeling he was a little bit older than to, when I started, I just began to feel really kind of touched out and quite overwhelmed. Navigating the shift from responsive feeding in a infant to there being more boundaries, and it being more sort of negotiated. And initially, actually was relatively straightforward for us. I was noticing in myself that sometimes I was totally up for, you know, like, free for all feed anytime you like. And sometimes that didn't feel okay for me. And I was a bit concerned about. I didn't, I felt like I didn't want to put in a lot of strong boundaries, because sometimes I needed them. I sort of wanted to allow the flexibility of the times when I felt open to it, that would be okay. And the times that I didn't, that would also be okay. And I remember really worrying about that and talking to one of the breastfeeding peer supporters at mobs. But it was interesting, because at that point, and that was probably about 18 months, even at that stage, it felt like there wasn't I don't know it, it didn't feel like the advice was coming from a sort of personal experience place, or they just sort of said like, oh, that I think that would probably be okay. I wouldn't worry about it too much, basically, which ultimately, I didn't. And it was fine. You know, when I wasn't okay. I would say no. And when I was, I would say yes. And at that point in Romans development, he was okay with that. I think temperamentally, he is quite cooperative. And so for we had a good period of a few months where I was able to be more boundaried when I needed to. And he accepted that pretty light without much upset. And we used a couple of tools. I introduced a kind of countdown to end feeds if I didn't want to be feeding for a long time. And he really likes countdowns. Anyway. So he and he really took to that really quickly, like and he'd often unlatch himself before he got to one and count down from five. And he'd often unlatch up to and so at that point, I was like, God, this is great. This is easy. I don't know what everyone's talking about!
Emma Pickett 23:53
How often this point and was he feeding at night? What was happening at night?
Catherine 23:57
He largely stopped feeding at night, unless he was teething at about 14 months, just naturally of his own accord, the stretches that he would sleep at night just extended from eight to 11 months sleep was really difficult for us. He was awake, he would wake and feed very, you know, every one or two hours, and we were co sleeping I wouldn't have got through that bit without doing that. But then just grip those stretches gradually stretched out. And by 14 months. He was generally sleeping until like four or five and then I do want to feed him go back to sleep and then he just peed again in the morning. And then during the day it would vary depending on like what we were doing in the day. Some days he was with a child minder, so he would feed in the morning, be with the child minder all day, and then have a massive feed when we got back when he got back and then like maybe once or twice and then bedtime. Some days, if we had the whole day together, he would feed in the morning. And then maybe once again in the kind of mid morning, nap time, if I was with him and I wasn't like out and about, I'd settle him with a feed. And then in the afternoon, sort of however many times, he and I both felt like it, and bedtime. So I fed him to sleep for all basically all his sleeps until he was to all his nighttimes sleeps until he was two. Because I think it's one of those things that I'm reflecting on a lot now that because of he was a COVID baby, I think a lot of the choices that we made around that, just around how we did things were sort of reflected that. I didn't realise at the time, but you know, because I wasn't ever allowed to go out. We never thought, oh, perhaps Catherine won't do this, because it was the easiest and kind of happiest thing for everyone. So I just did do that.
Emma Pickett 26:02
And actually, I think it's important to highlight that you fed to sleep. But yeah, he's slept for that massive, long gap. Because I think there's a myth that when you fall feed a child to sleep, you are kind of breaking them in a sense, and they're not develop independent sleep habits, and they're not gonna be able to transition between sleep cycles, and you'll be stuck with a frequent Waker. But, but Rowan is a, you know, flag waiver for somebody that was breastfed to sleep. Yeah. And but yet, it was having longer intervals from you know, as early as 14 months, which is, which is good.
Catherine 26:30
Which is when I think when he was ready for them, that's the kind of key thing for me. I was ready for them to but you know, I didn't have to do anything to make that happen.
Emma Pickett 26:40
So you're doing timings? You're doing some timings, you had sort of a fluctuation between sometimes feeling okay, with frequent feedings? Sometimes not. But his personality type allowed you to have that fluctuation. And that works worked for us pretty flexible. And then it started to not feel Yeah, so what's happening next?
Catherine 26:56
Then he just his will became a lot stronger, you know, and his counter will, you know, developmental stage that he got to where he really wasn't just mildly accepting the boundaries that I put in. And it began to feel like a real struggle at times. And I found that that kind of phase of parenting really difficult, they'd like sort of being with him and staying relatively regulated in myself through big, big, two year old tantrums. Really, just so hard.
Emma Pickett 27:41
Is there anything that helps you in that stage, because I know a lot of people really struggle, because with a breastfeed breastfeeding child, you've often regulated them all through, you know, toddlerhood, you might not have seen those big meltdowns. And when they finally happen, they can be quite scary. Is there anything that sort of helped you in that stage?
Catherine 27:59
I think I have a lot of, I've done yoga and mindfulness for a long time. So I feel like I've got sort of body based tools in you know, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I can find the ground, feel my feet, find some breaths, and I think a lot of having some conviction that it was okay, like, what was happening was okay, that he wasn't part of me would really go into sort of panic and feel like it was an emergency. And, you know, it was awful. But having a bigger picture sense of knowing that actually, like this is okay, this is a developmental moment. This needs to come out. Your job is just to be here, sort of all of that, probably from my therapeutic training, and also from gentle parenting type philosophies.
Emma Pickett 28:50
And it's not your job to fix it. And that's the other thing. Yeah, exactly. Yes. I talked about aware parenting, and I think you made reference to it as well. And one of the things, one of the things that were parenting talks about is, you know, children are going to have a big range of emotions. And our job as adults is to accept that big range of emotions and to understand that it's not our job to stop it or prevent it or give a message that anger is bad or big feelings are bad, you know, we are sitting alongside them and supporting children to express their feelings, unconditionally loving through them throughout all their feelings, being there to you know, physically comfort them and emotionally comfort them, but it's not our job to to stop it, to end it to finish it. It's our job just to sort of sit alongside it and work on our own regulation and, and think about what possible triggers maybe come from our past that mean that we might struggle with that. So lots of people parented in the 20th century were brought up with messages that you know, expressing anger is naughty. Yeah, when we see children expressing anger, we feel we failed as a parent rather than accept that as the natural emotional outlet. I don't know if you've aware parenting or not practice No officially or anything, it's just to something that I think is useful in this context. I don't know if you've had any reading around that, or any thoughts about that. Yeah.
Catherine 30:07
Erm like it could be another podcast. Yeah, I have really mixed feelings about.
Emma Pickett 30:15
No, I'm totally happy to hear that. Because, yeah, I definitely feel that there's some issues there, particularly, one of the books that salt has written is about tears and tantrums and about how, you know, almost that breastfeeding should never be used as a comfort. And that is very contrary to my feelings about early parenting and you are meant to comfort in my view, that is instinctively what we are meant to do. So there's definitely an extreme end to our parenting that I don't think is appropriate for me. Yeah, it doesn't feel comfortable for me. Tell me a bit more about your your thoughts, let's get them mixed feelings out.
Catherine 30:47
What you were just describing that sense of, you know, we don't need to stop feelings, we need to welcome them in to be alongside them. All of that 100% like I'm on board with. And I think, you know, other people and other approaches. Talk about that, you know, that's not a kind of exclusively aware parenting idea. I think the things that I have struggled with and felt quite challenged by are Yeah, exactly, as you've said, that sense of, I think, sort of taken to an extreme some of the practices and techniques could be denying very normal comfort.
Emma Pickett 31:24
Yeah, exactly, what we instinctively want to do, coming from a very natural mammalian place. Yes, offer our children comfort, and that doesn't always have to mean shutting a child down that is, you know, that is another way to co regulate. It's interesting because he talked about you know, you can't spoil your children and physical contact is great and but yet there's this also mess or the service message of you know, we're trying to stop children crying and, and crying is good and crying should happen. And you know, hormonal release happens during crying and it doesn't quite fit together. Maybe I need to do some reading?
Catherine 31:55
And I don't know if you have you read Aware Baby, which is the know, to me about, well, I really would suggest to you that you read it because I think that's the I mean, just some of the stuff in there about sleep, and about breastfeeding. Just really feel to me like, wow, stay in your wheelhouse! Yeah, there's advice about breastfeeding, exactly. As you said, you know, like, Don't feed for comfort. And but she says, you know, if children who are fed for comfort or fed to sleep, that's likely to lead to obesity and addiction in adulthood. Yes.
Emma Pickett 32:29
Alright. So we're not going to be buddies. But yeah, so that's take what we want from Yeah, what people say there's no no one person honestly. 100% Perfect. I think she's, she's almost sort of gone down this path. And she's taking it to its absolute logical, extreme conclusion. Yeah. But I think without realising what breastfeeding necessarily is, it's it's not a nutritional thing. It's far more than that. It always has been far more than that.
Catherine 32:58
And I think with any approach that interrupts parents intuition, that's kind of where my, like hackles rise up a bit. It's like if you take anything to an extreme in a way that encourages parents to disregard their kind of innate nurturing drive.
Emma Pickett 33:17
Yeah, no, I think I think that's, that's a good way of describing it. Yeah. So I think the principles that I do like that idea about big feelings, not always being bad, let's take let's take that big feelings are not, it's not our job to remove them, you know, sadness and anger on our failings. You know, almost like our children are our colleagues in this process. You know, there are there are mates that are there. Long, you know, we're going to support each other in this process, we're going to support them to find self regulation methods, there are times when they might need to support us, we're kind of sitting alongside each other. And sometimes, I guess one of the other messages that I like is that little people can sometimes have their own solutions, and especially in the weaning process, they may have some ideas they may have some thoughts. We don't have to be the expert in our child's feelings and emotions because even quite young children might be able to be the expert in their own feelings. Yeah, I need to go and read aware baby to tears and tantrums touched on some of this stuff. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, I like responsive breastfeeding. No, no, no, breastfeeding is more than just nutrition. Yeah, I think Sarah Okwell-Smith is also quite good on this idea about managing big feelings and and you know, the big feelings aren't a failing of us or bad or must be stopped. You know, a meltdown. I mean, that word tantrum. I try to avoid that word tantrums, yes. It's again, it suggests naughtiness. It's just little people get overwhelmed and they can't control that feeling. And it's not our job to stop that feeling. And you know, just understanding what's normal and how we're little people are in that meltdown phase. They can't access their prefrontal cortex. We can't talk them out of it. You know that all I think all those kind of messages or messages are helpful. So So Rowan was getting some big feelings....
Catherine 34:54
Yeah, he was getting some big feelings. I was feeling pretty touched out and And I think this wasn't really about breastfeeding. I think this was about being two years into parenting in a very responsive way. And things being out of balance in our home probably in terms of kind of responsibilities. And there was a lot going on. For me, that meant I it was just, it was a tough time. And it felt like I'm not enjoying this more than I'm enjoying it. So I think maybe I need to finish now. And that was the time that I organised my first weaning circle, because I felt like I just want you know, I had a conversation with the breastfeeding peer supporter, but I felt like I wanted it to be bigger. I just wanted other mothers to talk to you about it. And the mothers that I did know, we're all sort of at a similar, either they had stopped breastfeeding quite early, or they were at a similar point to me because they have children of a similar age. And so I felt like I kind of wanted to just crowdsource some, some other people's feelings. Yeah, great. And I sort of luckily, sort of unluckily, because of COVID timings, when Rome was very little, I didn't know any other parents who were parenting in a similar way to me. So I set up a Facebook group for people who are interested in gentle parenting and Stroud, so that I could meet some people basically. But that did mean that I then was connected in with a wider network of people. So I booked a space and put a call out, and I think eight of us may be met. And just as I really just wanted it to be a place where we could all reflect kind of individually, but also together on where we were with breastfeeding. It was all people who either had were thinking about weaning or had recently weaned and, and it just felt to me like such kind of invisible transition, especially with older feeding toddlers or older children that often that by the time you get to that point, people are often kind of only feeding at home.
Emma Pickett 37:03
Yeah, that isolation is a real key thing. I think I do. I do winning groups. And, and lots of people say, gosh, I just didn't know anyone else I just literally didn't know. And you're the first person I've spoken to about what it's like to breastfeed a two year old and what nine times are like and just even separate from the winning conversation, just to know that you're not alone is so powerful. And that's why peer support is so important. And then once you get to that winning conversation for many people, nobody else knows they're still breastfeeding, sometimes other than their partner, sometimes their mom doesn't know they're still breastfeeding. And then you constantly say, Hey, I'm, I'm here, I'd like weaning support, please, because it was a while you're still breastfeeding, and didn't even know that was on the car. Yeah, it can be. So double isolation, you know, extended breastfeeding, or your natural term breastfeeding plus weaning. So yeah, so brilliant to get this winning circle. And I bet your parents were so grateful that you were there to to initiate this, I mean, really valuable.
Catherine 37:58
I think so. And actually, the outcome of that circle was me realising I'm not ready to finish now. But I need something within the relationship to shift. It was the particular early morning feed that was absolutely doing me. And I couldn't, I hadn't really kind of nailed that. But I was feeling really resentful about every day, waking, you know, starting my day at five, because when I needed a feed, and then often I'd just be up for the day. But I felt like overall, the big picture, maybe I wasn't actually ready to end completely. And a couple of other women came away from that circle saying, I thought that I was ready to finish. But actually, I think maybe I'm not.
Emma Pickett 38:36
Now, I once had one winning group when nobody finished. It, but actually, that was where everybody was just coincidentally that half a dozen people all all carried on feeding at the end. And you know, that's part of the conversation, isn't it?
Catherine 38:51
There was one woman in that group as well, who was her little one was 10 months old, she was going back to work. And she just thought she had to stop breastfeeding, because she was going back to work. And then being in a room with seven other women who almost all of them, I think, have worked and have toddlers, most of us have toddlers. And she was just like, Oh, I didn't know that was an option. Great. Okay. And as far as I know, she's still feeding brilliant. And so then I realised, you know, no, actually, I need, I just need to end that feed, which was that was kind of what night weaning looked like for us was just ending that single feed.
Emma Pickett 39:23
So how did you end up single feed because a lot of people, that child wakes up at 430 If they don't breastfeed, that is the beginning of the day and they're watching Paw Patrol downstairs eating bananas. How did you end that that early morning feed?
Catherine 39:37
I think we read because I sort of felt like I think we might be getting close to the stage where I might be ready to finish we had a book called by by Nanos think bye bye mommy milk. I wish I really love and Rowan was really fascinated with it like the first time I got it out. He asked me to read it kind of four times over. So So we sort of introduced the idea that, you know, mommy milk actually finishes, I looked at nurses when the sun shines as well, but because we weren't cosleeping at that point, I didn't think it would be that useful or resource for us actually. And so I think we just we read that book a little bit. And then he was kind of verbal enough and cognitive, developed enough that we could just, I think we just said, like, the night that I was going to do it differently. I said, when you wake up in the morning, I'm just going to be there and give you a cuddle to help you get back to sleep. We're not going to have milk until the morning time when the sun's up. And he sort of said like, okay, yeah. And then he did wake up. And he was absolutely furious when I said no, really upset, huge, huge meltdown, which I think probably lasted about 15 minutes. And I just sat with him. And you know, did that being there, being there welcome. And all the feelings, let him know that I was there. And he could have a cuddle if he wanted. One. Just sat with him until the wave kind of passed. And then he did kind of snuggle in for a cuddle and went back to sleep.
Emma Pickett 41:18
15 minutes is a long time. Yeah. When you're dealing when dealing with those feelings, what was going through your mind at that point? Sounds like you were fairly resolute. This is what you needed to do. Did you have any feelings of a wobble?
Catherine 41:28
I don't think in that moment that I did. Actually, I think it was, I think it was so beyond the point where I should have done it for myself anyway. You know, I think probably, if I had really, I probably should have done something like that about six months before, but I just kind of dragged on feeling like, oh, I can do it. So I think I was just so ready, that I felt really, with those experiences. And a couple of other experiences were later on down the line in weaning, where I was saying no to feeds during the day, I really had the feeling actually, of it being a really powerful gift to be kind of held with that whole wave of emotion as a little person. And that was, you know, it wasn't something that I had experienced as a child. It's something that I've experienced, kind of in adulthood in therapy. But that was really helpful for me, actually, in those moments, like, I'm doing something actively helpful here.
Emma Pickett 42:26
Yeah, you mean you mean by allowing him to go through that without disrupting it, that was again, a gift.
Catherine 42:33
Yeah, to go through it, to experience it. And to know that it ends, I think that's the, you know, for myself, and for a lot of people that I have seen kind of therapeutically big, big feelings are so terrifying because we haven't had the experience of knowing it comes and ends. Like naturally, however scary, it feels, it comes to an end, they always do. So, yeah, I kind of felt like, this is a gift.
Emma Pickett 43:01
Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it. And very true. So in that moment, there's not a sense of panic that you're failing that this shouldn't be this should be stopping. You just waited, you just waited and, and you know, that's that's, that's really great. And then he went back to sleep, and then woke up the morning feed and the rest of the day continued what happened the next morning, what happened the next day?
Catherine 43:22
We had three days of that happening, and then slightly shorter each time. And then He just slept through. Like I feel almost apologetic.
Emma Pickett 43:36
Like, we already hate you for him not sleeping through at 14 months anyway.
Catherine 43:42
Yeah, I think you know, we've had some tough spots with sleep. But in a lot of ways we've
Emma Pickett 43:46
You've earned this, you know, dealing with that pain and that eight to 11 months, you have to have somebody that sleeps well at 14 months, and you've earned the right to have somebody that you know, eventually sleeps through after three difficult days. So three difficult days. And then and then he slept through what till six or whatever.
Catherine 44:05
And yeah, until kind of six or seven. I think he had I think we had a few more days where he woke up, but I would just go in and cuddle him. And he wasn't upset about it. He was just like, okay, and then he started sleeping through.
Emma Pickett 44:18
Wow. So on day four, were you sort of sitting bolt out right at 4:45am waiting for him to wake? Were you able to sleep as well?
Catherine 44:28
I think I think I probably actually just slept. I was so ready. I'm so ready. So then yeah, so we made that change when he was about to but continued feeding for naps. If we were together bedtime, we're together. And during the day, if he asked and I was up for it. That was kind of our pattern for quite a long time. And then a few months down the line after that. I started to feel actually I am just ready for this ought to and now, and I can't really remember, I think it was still, you know, similar stuff about fit, just feeling. It probably honestly was like just the weight of that phase of how much need he had at that age, which is really challenging for me. And it, I think it just felt to me like, I wasn't expecting the need to change. But it was one way that I could give myself a little bit of space within that sense of being kind of overwhelmed by that need.
Emma Pickett 45:31
Yeah. So he's about he's about two and a half at this point.
Catherine 45:34
Yeah, about two and a half.
Emma Pickett 45:36
Um, how did you progress? What was the next feed to drop?
Catherine 45:39
I'm trying to remember where the naps are. I think the morning feed went next. We did a similar, you know, similar thing to what we did with the that early morning feed, which was to say, you know, tomorrow morning, when we wake up, we're not going to have milk in bed. We're gonna have a big cuddle. I think I think I said we're gonna go straight down and have breakfast. So it was kind of getting out of, which was quite tricky, because having a lovely, snuggly cuddle. Like that's a really nice way to start the day.
Emma Pickett 46:09
For people who don't stop still very often, dashing around all day, don't always get those big, snuggly cuddles, it's hare to say goodbye to them.
Catherine 46:17
But what I want to say is, we have them again now. So you know, we had a period where we didn't because I was kind of up and out and straight into something else. And but now generally, when we're in wakes up, he comes and gets into my bed and we have a big morning cuddle.
Emma Pickett 46:32
I mean, please for now. So yeah, came back. That's lovely.
Catherine 46:36
So that one went and I think that one went fairly smoothly, actually, he just was kind of was kind of accepting of it. The two that were really hard to end, practically with a feeding to sleep for naps, and the bedtime feed. So the next one that went was the nap feed. And that was just really difficult because it was learning, you know, both of us learning a new skill, like how do you settle? At that point, he hadn't settled for sleep in bed without a feed like his dad had never done settling. He would sleep in a car or a buggy. But that was the only way that he knew to fall asleep in bed. So that took quite a lot of work.
Emma Pickett 47:22
I'm actually impressed you did it because honestly lots of people at two two and a half just can't make it work and they end up not doing apps and they end up all the naps end up being buggies and cars and they can't make it work. So what was your trick?
Catherine 47:36
Honestly, we did eventually get there. But um, so I think Tom started to do some bedtimes. So I went out a few times, and Tom did some bedtimes. So we sort of had established a bit of a like, you can fall asleep in bed without a feed. He would read some stories and cuddle him. And I think Tom did some naps in bed first. And it took longer. But he did eventually fall asleep with the first few times I tried to do it like it was I don't know if I'm allowed to swear it you know,
Emma Pickett 48:13
you mean back to him being angry. You mean just flipping around not wanting to sleep?
Catherine 48:17
Like yeah, just not wanting to sleep because it was a really is a tricky time, you know, at that age. Anyway, he was, it's a tricky time for naps. Because you know, he could manage to get much later in the day before he was really ready to conk out, but he kind of needed it to come earlier in order for bedtime not to be like midnight. So it was it was hard, you know, like a breastfeed was a great, quick, easy way to get
Emma Pickett 48:43
lovely hormones. It's like sedatives, essentially.
Catherine 48:49
So we had Yeah, we had a few days of like, just him messing around for an hour. me feeling really frustrated, often eventually going like, fine, fine, we're going for a walk in the buggy. And doing that. And so we got to a point where we could settle him in bed if he was tired enough without a feed, but often it was easier and more enjoyable for both of us to go for a walk. Yeah, so that's what ultimately most naps and at the childminder he was with he was not in the buggy as well. So he already had quite a strong kind of this is a sleeping place association. And that worked for us so that was the that path of least resistance
Emma Pickett 49:34
and not a failure at all. I'm not know that you say that it is but occasionally some people think oh my god or you know, they're meant to sleep it they're not gonna get restorative sleep. This is bad sleep and no, you know, that's not true. You can absolutely sleep in on a buggy and that's what it needs you need to do.
Catherine 49:50
And I think I've talked a lot with people that I work with around sleep about finding ways that you supporting your child to sleep can also be nourishing for yourself. have like, if you are doing something that feels like difficult, or stressful for half an hour or an hour, of course, you're not going to do it. But if you can, you know, lie down and listen to a podcast while you feed your baby to sleep. Or you can go for a walk because you love being outside and you love moving your body while your baby falls asleep. That's an easier prospect, isn't it? Yeah. I then got into the habit of having a walk after lunch every day that was with him, which was great. Yeah. So that one went. And then the last feed was the bedtime feed. Again, I you know, I sort of held on to that for quite a long time, because I liked it, that it was an easy, quick, basically quite relaxing way for me to settle him to sleep. I used to go and lie in bed and listen to the arches. And I don't I don't listen to the arches anymore. Because, because that was just part of my routine. But when I started to notice that I was feeling I wasn't enjoying it anymore was like, Okay, this is, you know, it's time for it to go, it's time for it to go. And by that point we had, because I knew we were moving in that direction, we had kind of consciously done quite a few more bedtime is where Tom was in charge. So introduced the idea of kind of Daddy bedtime, and there was a routine around falling asleep that didn't involve milk. And then we were going away on holiday. And I was really a bit fixated on the idea of wanting the last to kind of marking the last feed like I wanted both of us to know, this is the last one, even though honestly, I know that that wouldn't. You know, he couldn't really understand that. But I wanted to know when my last feed was going to be. And I remember talking to my husband about you know, should we do it before we go on holiday? Or should we do it? Would it be helpful to have that tool on holiday and then we can do it afterwards? And we and my husband said just you know, see what happens, see how it goes. And we went away. And I think being away. Before this happened. I would always whenever I was talking to people about kind of making changes around sleep, I'd always say do it when everything's normal, like don't do it when other big things are going on. But actually our experience was being away. The environment being different, the routine being different, him being really tired, because he was kind of in the fresh air and doing lots and sometimes not napping. He just got to this stage where he was kind of sometimes nothing sometimes not meant that for the whole five days that we were away. We didn't breastfeed. But I then actually, I felt quite upset then at the idea. Oh, that's just kind of slipped away. Yeah, unmarked. And so then I decided, okay, we'll have one more feet. Like when we get home, we will have the final feet that I had held up as this thing that I wanted to have. And it was really important for me. And it was absolute horrible.
Emma Pickett 53:01
That's not how the story ends. Come on. In what way?
Catherine 53:05
It took ages, I felt really cross like it was I was feeding him to sleep. And he was it was he was really messing around. He was in that stage where he was like dropping his nap. So if and he'd had I think he must have had a nap that day. And so he you know, he wasn't tired enough, probably. And yeah, I was feeding for about 45 minutes starting to get sore felt a lot of frustration, and felt really sad. Because, you know, I obviously had this sort of idea that I'd seen a video, a video on the internet have this woman kind of having her last feed and speaking to her child and it being this magical moment. And I was like, Wow, this, isn't it. But it also I guess, was really helpful to me. It was a very clear sign that like you are so you are beyond ready for this too
Emma Pickett 53:55
That was the universe saying listen, love, you're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing. Really?
Catherine 53:59
Yeah. This is your time. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 54:02
So then that that was the last feed? And then did you feel the need to sort of create a different ceremony? I don't know if you're a particularly spiritual person, or did you feel a need to kind of go back and look at baby pictures and reclaim the positive? How did you then process that?
Catherine 54:16
Yeah, I think I did. I was I spoke about that whole process while it was going on over that kind of six months, I think I spoke about in my Instagram stories. And I think that actually was really helpful for me because I really was a space for me to sort of reflect on what was going on and remember, yeah, I just remember kind of what a beautiful thing it had been for such a long time. And then we very soon after that, this sounds like I'm always on holiday. But very soon after that. We went to a festival that we always go to every year. It's a really special kind of happy place for us all. And that was the like the week that I had finished and I was really, really wobbly. emotionally I think I was having a big kind of hormone thing. But I had a had a moment where we I was in a kind of choir, choir workshop and we're singing the song Bella mama, which I don't know if you know it, which I'd sung a lot in baby groups, and just had this really wonderful experience of him. He was I was sitting down cuddling him singing this song with like, loads of people around me singing it was really beautiful. And then he fell asleep, kind of in my arms and he just felt like a little baby again. That sort of felt like this is my sort of symbolic end to this bagel. I feel I feel quite wobbly, just remembering it.
Emma Pickett 55:41
How does the song go? I'm not gonna make you sing the whole thing.
Catherine 55:45
While I'm crying. And it goes [sings]
Catherine 56:07
It's making me cry. But it also had been a song that I had, as part of like working out. Okay, how do we do bedtime without feeding? I had been singing him that song as part of the so it really was very powerful. Yeah. And so that was that finished.
Emma Pickett 56:27
Yeah. And how did your hormones go for the next few days and weeks? You mentioned you had a little bit of a hormonal blip. Did that carry on?
Catherine 56:34
Yeah, I think I had, I had a week or two, where I was very, yeah, felt very low, felt very kind of emotionally reactive. And then Rowan had a good few weeks, where he really struggled. He wasn't asking for milk or anything like that. But he really struggled. After his initial kind of settling in period with his childminder, he was always pretty happy at drop offs. But he had a couple of weeks where I really struggled with drop offs, like very, very needed me very intensely. And that's a kind of tricky cycle for both of us, because I've been parts of me find that quite overwhelming. And I call back, and then he feels that needs me even more. So we yeah, we both had a wobbly few weeks afterwards. But things did then eventually level out.
Emma Pickett 57:27
And when you look back on that time, when you look back on your weaning, is there anything you would have done differently? Do you feel that that was the part from maybe your last feed being a slightly different situation? Is there anything else you reflect on?
Catherine 57:40
I think I should have knocked that early morning feed on the head earlier? Who I would if I you know if I was doing it again? I would. Because I was feeling a lot of resentment about it. But I think there was a lot, I had a big fear that if what will happen if it goes exactly as you said, maybe the day starts at 5am. Maybe I have to spend half an hour settling in a different way that's more disruptive. So probably that. And I think, you know, it's kind of about winning, and kind of not about winning. But I think there's the bigger question about that balancing of your needs and their needs. That I wonder if, in other ways, it's hard for me to, to say this in a way that doesn't sound like I'm blaming myself. So I hope that I'm not. But I wonder if I had found ways to make it easier for myself to to be meeting my own needs. In a bigger sense. I might have felt less overwhelmed and so not needed. Not felt like I needed that change at that time. So I wonder if there was, if I was meeting my needs differently, I might have said for longer ultimately, but not because I think that's, you know, a better thing to do. But I I wonder if I made that choice at that time, because I was feeling overwhelmed in my parenting wasn't so much necessarily about feeding, but it was that was one place where I felt like I could make a bit more space.
Emma Pickett 59:05
Yeah, I guess it's one of those unknowns. Yeah. And that was in that was the choice he made in that moment. You know, coming from a very self aware self reflective place. I mean, you know, professionally and personally, you sound like someone who is very in touch with your needs and and I think it sounds like that's where you felt you needed to go. Yeah, and two and a half years, brilliant achievement and new baby coming along in the not so distant future. I do hope you don't have the tongue tie struggles and but as you said, you'll know what to do this time you've got your support network, you'll know where to go and who knows maybe in a couple of years time we'll be talking about breastfeeding experience on the podcast goes on that long. Thank you so much, Catherine for your time today. I really appreciated your honesty and openness and sharing your story and, and yeah, you're just it's just really inspirational to hear how you manage that process. And yeah, I'm very, very grateful to you. Is there anything you have have mentioned that you think you'd want someone to know if they're going through the weaning experience or about to go through it.
Catherine 1:00:05
I think the thing that feels like most important for me is that it's okay. Like it is okay to finish, if you are ready to finish, and that it is okay for your child to be upset about that,
Emma Pickett 1:00:19
Yeah, three cheers! I'm going to embroider that on a cushion. It's okay for you to finish with breastfeeding and breast feeding. And it's okay for your child to feel upset about it. That is absolutely true.
Catherine 1:00:29
And I think sometimes we make decisions as parents to we kind of avoid doing things because we don't want to upset our children. But ultimately, if that leads to resentment, it feels to me kinder and fairer to make a choice that is kind of true to your honest capacity to give. So that like that feels better for the relationship overall than doing something it makes you feel resentful. Yeah.
Emma Pickett 1:00:54
And one thing of where parenting does get right is to say, Hey, your needs matter to actually continuing to do something in a sort of sacrificial way, is not positive for your child, either actually knowing the big picture or the family dynamic. Yeah, absolutely. Really important point. Thank you. Thank you, Catherine. Really appreciate it. And yeah, and we'll put your details in the show notes if people want to reach out to you and professionally and when I post on Instagram, if people have got comments, perhaps they can comment on those posts as well.
Catherine 1:01:23
I meant to say one of the things that was absolutely critical to my getting going initially was your breastfeeding book. So thank you, first, I, you know, was reading it at 3am Going like Okay, so that's normal. Okay, carry on. So that's normal.
Emma Pickett 1:01:41
Thank you for that reference. That's appreciated. Thank you, Catherine.
Emma Pickett 1:01:50
Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @EmmaPickettibclc and on Twitter @makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.
Emma Pickett 1:02:16
This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.