Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end. So join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.
Emma Pickett 00:48
Thank you very much for joining me today. For today's episode, I'm really honoured to be joined by Deborah McMorran, who's going to be talking about her experience of breastfeeding after loss. And it goes without saying that we're going to be talking about loss and that's something that some people may not feel comfortable listening to. But I'm also hoping very much that it's a conversation that some people will find really valuable, perhaps healing even, because of their own experiences. But certainly if you're somebody who works with new families and new parents and mums, I want you to hear Deborah's story and to be able to have her voice in your head when you're supporting parents that have had difficult experiences and have experienced loss. So breastfeeding after loss is the title of the podcast, but it's a lot more than that. We're also talking about Deborah's experiences, generally around breastfeeding. She's a mom from Hertfordshire. She's an ABM peer supporter. She's currently breastfeeding her two year old. Thank you very much for joining me today, Deborah.
Deborah McMorran 01:43
Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Emma Pickett 01:45
Before we get started, and I asked you about your history, if there's somebody listening to these first few moments thinking, Well, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to listen to this episode, what would you want them to know, before they make that decision?
Deborah McMorran 01:59
I would say that I will be talking about my losses, of which there were a few. I would say that my personal experience with breastfeeding after loss has been incredibly positive. And I hope that if you are either going through a loss currently, or if you have experienced a loss, and you are considering breastfeeding a current child or you are pregnant with a rainbow baby, that I hope that you can maybe find some hope from this podcast, and that you can see that actually, there is life after loss, there is hope after loss, and that everybody's story is not the same. But if anybody can draw something from our story, it's that you can learn to love your body again, you can learn to trust your body again, and that breastfeeding can be incredibly healing in part of that process.
Emma Pickett 03:05
Yeah, thank you. That was a great summary. That was two minutes done. I don't think we need to do anything else. You explained everything so beautifully. Enjoy the rest of your day. But now we're gonna go into a bit more depth and I really am honoured that you're going to share that with me today. You use that term rainbow baby. Now I know what that means. But not everyone listening may know what that term means. Tell me about what a rainbow baby is.
Deborah McMorran 03:25
So rainbow baby will mean different things to different people. But generally, the term rainbow baby refers to a baby which is born after a loss of some thoughts. So that might be a neonatal death. It might be a miscarriage, it might be a stillbirth. And for many people, the term rainbow baby is something which offers hope in the depths of despair, for many, for anybody the sign of a rainbow, we've become so used to seeing the rainbows after the COVID pandemic as being a sign of hope. But for a long time before that the rainbow had been a sign of hope for people in the baby loss community. A rainbow is something which comes after a storm. And so in this context, the storm is the loss, the sadness, the trauma that you go through when you lose a baby. And a rainbow is something which doesn't change what has happened and it certainly doesn't mean that the rain never fell. But it does mean that the sunshine is coming out again. And you have a rainbow. You have a baby you have hope for the future.
Emma Pickett 04:31
Yeah, so I know our podcast is audio only but I can see you as we're recording this and you you are a very rainbow person. You're You're very colourful, you've got a gorgeous, colourful Prue Leith type necklace. Pulleys would be Jarrett very jealous of your necklace. Your clothes are colourful. Would you say that before these experiences you were already a very positive person or have you had to sort of work on your mindset. Tell me what you like prior to the baby experiences.
Deborah McMorran 04:58
I actually used to wear quite a lot of black. Not because I was a sad person, probably because I thought it was slimming. Whereas now, I said to some mums in the playground recently, when I was wearing a very, very bright Lucy and Yak jumpsuit, other brands are available,
Emma Pickett 05:16
oh I Love Lucy and Yak. That's my some of my favourite dungarees. Yeah.
Deborah McMorran 05:20
And I said, you know, before we had sadness, you know, I probably sort of worried maybe a bit more about what people thought. And now, bright colours make me happy. And so I just sort of think, if a bit of brightness in what you wear can make other people happy can make you happy, it immediately makes me feel more positive about the day. And yes, I have to say our house is pretty full of rainbows. And you know, people generally, if they send me cards, there's quite often rainbows on. So yeah, since since my son was born, it's definitely become a more permanent fixture in my wardrobe and in our home.
Emma Pickett 05:57
Yeah, not to say I'm imagining there aren't difficult days to and, and while we have this conversation, we know when we were first in touch, you said to me that you do get emotional easily. And those emotions are very easy to for you to access to. So if at any point you want to pause, please do so if I say something that feels uncomfortable, I want you to call me out on it if I'm using the wrong language. Let's go back to the very beginning of your parenting experience. What were what were you doing? Was your family planned? What was your sort of early life like?
Deborah McMorran 06:29
So I had, my husband will love me for sharing this with you. He's a really private person. I had her series of dreadful boyfriends, who obviously I thought were wonderful at the time and generally weren't. And I had reached my 30s and assumed that I wasn't going to have children. I had sort of persuaded myself, I didn't want to have children, mainly because I didn't think that that was going to happen for me. So by way of protecting my heart, I had told myself, I didn't want that. I had taken up quite a lot of extreme sports. So I was very much living a very happy single life. I was about to go to India, to write a piece because I was working, I was doing some journalism at the time. And I went out to celebrate the fact that the Indian Tourist Board, were paying for me to go to India, and I met my husband, it was totally unintentional. I definitely wasn't planning to go out and fall in love. But I did. And it was a bit of a whirlwind romance he moved in within a week. And it became apparent fairly quickly that he assumed that we would have children and that he wanted to have children. And I sort of thought, oh, maybe I actually want to have children. In the end anyway.
Emma Pickett 07:59
Wow, fasttracking. I mean, you know, in a week, you haven't even got time to show your surname. So no one's gonna blame you for not a fad. Not a fabulous conversation in a week. No one's gonna expect to have that conversation. No. So did you sit down and talk about it? Or no, he was just literally assuming and you ended up absorbing that?
Deborah McMorran 08:16
No, we were in the pub, and someone that we know, who had children said, All right, come on, guys, when are you going to get on and have some kids? And I just didn't say anything. And my husband said, oh, yeah, I definitely want kids. And that was it. And so I then allowed myself to open my mind to the idea on my heart to the possibility that actually, I might be able to have the children that I always thought I would like to have. And so we met in the October. And by the following April, we were engaged. And by the August and so our wedding was booked for the following October. And by the August I was pregnant with my daughter, very much planned very much hoped for. My mother wasn't delighted whether I might fit in my wedding dress or not, which had already been bought, however, with a few alterations that did work out, okay. And, and our daughter was born the following year. So within the space of about a year and a half, we were married and had our first daughter, and it was a textbook pregnancy. It was really straightforward. I did not assume for a second that there could be a problem that there would be a problem, which was naive, really, because a good friend of ours had her stillborn son a couple of years previously. And so although that was in the back of my mind, I sort of assumed as many people do that that is something that happens to other people. So when my daughter was Born Again, the Labour couldn't have been more perfect. If you can say that of a labour. We had a water birth. I think my final stage of the birth was about 15 minutes.
Emma Pickett 10:13
Do you mind me asking Deborah, how many weeks pregnant were you at this point?
Deborah McMorran 10:16
She was born at 39 plus one day. So we were we were pretty, I was ready for her to calm I didn't want her to go over. Probably because I was slightly anxious at that stage of the pregnancy. But we went for a very, very long walk around the golf course. And went home got into bed, and in the middle of the night, my waters broke. So it was all exactly, you know, it was as I had read in the books would happen, my water break, you know, everything would all work really simply. And it was and you know, we I had, we had done Hypno birthing. And I had, you know, prepared myself as best I thought I could. And then we did have the waterbirth that I had hoped for. I didn't have any stitches. I was really smug. I was that really annoying person. I mean, I was in the local pottery place for days after she was born making handprints on mugs and you know, really just really annoying and smug.
Emma Pickett 11:21
Okay, I if I was with your person, I'd be giving you a hug at this point. Because smog isn't it's not smog is not a word. But I'm comfortable you're using but you're allowed to call yourself anything you want. But okay, you were bathed in oxytocin when
Deborah McMorran 11:36
I was and I know that now. But I think at the time, a lot of my friends were sort of as a lot of people will be at home, probably soaking it all in. And I'll tell you now that it was completely different with my son. So the reason that I look back on that probably, and think that I was your rights mag isn't the right word. I think I was in a rush. I think I was in a rush to make memories. I think I was in a rush to do all of the things that I think at that time, I thought that you should do. So I was not taking the time to get to know my daughter. I was not at home giving myself the fourth trimester that I definitely did differently the second time around. So what I did find that I had expected to breastfeed I had wanted to breastfeed. I was in the hospital without any bottles with me, I hadn't taken formula in because I had assumed I would breastfeed. And my daughter was very sleepy after she was born. I should say I obviously as I said it was a very straightforward labour, but they had given me petard in part the way through, and I'd had an allergic reaction to it. So I couldn't then, and didn't want to have any further pain relief. But my daughter obviously was probably quite sleepy because of that. And so she didn't really show any signs of interest in feeding. And she continued to not show signs of any interest. And we had lots and lots of lovely skin to skin throughout the night. And nobody checked on us. Throughout the night. Nobody came to, I guess nobody came to interrupt us. But also I didn't really get any feeding support. So by 1030, the next morning, when it became time for us to be discharged, they came and said, How's the baby fed? And I said, No, she hasn't. She's been just really asleep. And someone had helped us, I think, to express a few drops of colostrum. But other than that she hadn't. There hadn't been any extra help, really. And so they said, Well, have you got formula with you? And I said, No, I'm going to breastfeed. And they said, right, well, we can't let you go home until we've seen the baby have a feed. And I said, Oh, well, what, what do I do? And they said, Well, don't worry. We've got some formula in the office upstairs. And so they came down with a bottle of ready made formula with a teat and said give this to the baby. If she takes this then you can go home. So I said to my baby, with formula, which she goes all down, and they said, Okay, great. Go and get the car seat. Off you go.
Emma Pickett 14:35
So there was no feeding support happening at all at this point?
Deborah McMorran 14:38
No, not a single jot. No. So we went home. And I said, I'll want you know, I'm going to still breastfeed her. And so I kept pushing her to the breast. But obviously, as somebody with no breastfeeding experience putting her to the breast for kid, I just kept sort of shoving her face on my boob. Which, by this point, certainly two or three days later, were the size of watermelons. And she just didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. And I was pumping. So I was pumping several times a day, I was doing the pump in the middle of the night. And I probably had enough milk to supply half apart the chair. I mean, it was absurd, the amount of milk. And for so many people, I know that that isn't the case, you know, and actually, there might be all sorts of reasons why supply might be a concern. But that wasn't the case. And I couldn't understand how, when there was so much milk there. I couldn't get it from me into her without having to go through the milking parlour into a bottle. And then into her, it just seemed so frustrating. And so I sort of raised the question whether there might be a problem with tongue tie. And obviously, we had, because this is pre COVID. And it was when health visitors sort of came around to the house and that kind of thing. And she came round, and she said, Oh, no, but baby's jaundiced. So we need to feed this out of her, we need to go back, do you need to take her back to the hospital? Maybe? So we took her back to the hospital? And they said, no, no, no, she's fine. Don't worry about it. So hopefully went again. But I was still obviously concerned about the fact that she wasn't feeding, and I was awkward feeding and I wanted to be breastfeeding. So we took her to a tongue tie consultant. And the one local to us actually wasn't available. So we ended up driving miles and miles away to go to town to my consultant. And she said, No, she hasn't got a tongue tie. And thinking back on it now and looking in my daughter's mouth. I would disagree with that, with the knowledge that I now have. But as a new mum, with no experience with breastfeeding, or indeed anything to do with lactation. I could only assume that the tongue tie consultant knew what they were talking about. And I didn't. I wasn't strong enough as a mother, then to stand my ground. I didn't trust my instincts. And I said, Okay, well, what do we do? And she said, Have you got a bottle with you? And I said, No. And she said, Oh, okay. Well, can you go and get on? So off, my husband trotted to a chemist around the corner, and bought back a bottle, which I strange, I've still got, I can't, I can't get rid of it. I don't know why. It's really odd. I don't know whether I somehow I'm linking it to the fact that that was when she couldn't feed? I don't know, I don't know what it is. I just can't throw it away. So she took the bottle, and she then watched her drinking the bottle and No, no, it's fine. She's fine. So again, no, real help no real support enough. We were packed. And that was it.
Emma Pickett 18:01
Oh, I'm so sorry. You had these experiences that you've obviously been been let down badly. But I would also say that you're quite tough on yourself. And the way you talk about that. Needless is if you should have been sort of, I mean, nobody is going to challenge somebody who's billing themselves as a tongue tie specialist, you know, no, first time mom is going to say actually, excuse me, I think there is a doctor. So the the idea that you think you should have done that is? That's you being quite tough on yourself.
Deborah McMorran 18:30
I know. And I think there is I think there is a lot of guilt there. I think I feel guilty in a way that if I don't know, maybe if I didn't have such a good breastfeeding experience. Now, maybe I wouldn't feel guilty. Maybe I wouldn't felt that I should have done more. But I pumped that in and I carried on pumping for a month. And I felt really, really pleased with myself that I had done that I really felt that a month was a really good length of time. And I still think that it was a good length of time. You know, as we all know, any amount of breast milk, whether that comes from the breast or whether it comes from the bottle is all beneficial, hugely beneficial.
Emma Pickett 19:06
So we know that now and I know that an exclusive pumping is no short order. I mean anyone, anyone exclusively pumping is Gosh, it just absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm sure you I'm sure you've met these moms and your work as a peer supporter as well. I mean, I mean moms who manage it for a year and I'm not to say that, you know, the less than a year is less than but gosh, you've just got to care for a newborn and to care for yourself and to pump I just Yeah, it's amazing.
Deborah McMorran 19:34
So I did that for four weeks, and I really thought okay, that's a month. That's it. That's good. Well done me and, and she's had for me anyway, so so let's just continue with that. It will be easier. And so we did that and I in my head. I really felt that I'll just breastfeed the next one. That was somewhere in my I just thought it didn't work this time and it's something that I wanted to do for me, I didn't even at that point, I wasn't really focused on the benefits. Because nobody actually tells you, unless you seek out the information unless you are surrounded with people from the ATM. If you're surrounded by people from La Leche League, or you know any of those places who can give you the real information, I have found in my personal experience, I know this isn't the case everywhere. But people in the hospitals were not quick to tell me the actual benefits of breastfeeding or breast milk. You know, people say, Oh, breast is best. Yes, we've all heard that. Nobody told me the benefits in terms of reducing the risk of childhood cancers. Nobody told me the benefits to me in terms of reducing my risk of certain health concerns. You know, there are just so many things that I did not know. So I thought to myself, it's sad for me that I didn't get to breastfeed my child. But she's okay. She's thriving. She's growing. But actually, she wasn't really thriving. She was really struggling with her stomach. And so someone said, Oh, that's okay. You can give the special stomach formula. So I said, Oh, okay, fine. That's good.
Emma Pickett 21:18
When you say struggling with a stomach, you mean sort of collic type symptoms?
Deborah McMorran 21:21
Really bad constipation, really bad. And so she then had medication for that until the age of three, every day, because it obviously, something or other wasn't happy. And she was completely unable to go to the loo. And so therefore, you know, she had to have this medicine. And looking back on that now, I wonder whether that would have been different if she'd had breast milk? I don't know. And I will never know. But certainly, I felt that me stopping breastfeeding was something that was sad for me. But I didn't really think about whether it was sad for her. And so I very much told myself, it's okay, you'll do it next time. Try again next time, because at that point, I was absolutely High as a kite on being a mother. I loved it. I loved everything about it. I was besotted with my daughter. And I just thought I finally found the thing in life that I'm supposed to do. I've never really loved any job that I've had. I've never felt I had a career, because I felt I had jobs rather than a career that I felt passionate about. And I really loved being a mom. I just thought I'm gonna have a load of babies. This is really easy. This is really straightforward. I've had this lovely pregnancy where I felt incredible. And the labour was fine. And, you know, I've got this gorgeous, baby. Let's just have loads of babies. That will be wonderful. I have three or four. Great. And then obviously, life didn't work out that way.
Emma Pickett 23:01
Yeah. So when did you next get pregnant? How old was your daughter?
Deborah McMorran 23:05
So she would have been so she was born in the April and I was pregnant again by the following January. So she was little still she would have been sort of 910 months. Yeah, maybe not even that maybe eight months. And so I can have only been two or three weeks pregnant. And I was excited, you know, really excited. And then I bled on Valentine's Day. I miscarried at home. Obviously, very, very early stages. But I was devastated. And I would say in many ways. That was the worst of all of the miscarriages that I had. That was the saddest, it probably affected me the hardest.
Emma Pickett 23:52
So I'm sorry, Deborah, I'm not going to keep saying I'm sorry. Throughout these conversations, that becomes a bit naff, but I do want to express that. And I think it's really important that you've just explained that an early loss is not an easy loss, because I think that's a myth that so many people have, oh, it's only a couple of weeks. You only really trust me, but But for you, it was almost like the bubble had burst. Everything apart from your feeding experience being appalling your experience of you know, meeting your husband and getting married and falling pregnant and your birth and everything had been, you know, as it should have been? Yeah. And then this is this suddenly wasn't what it should have been. I mean, how would you explain why you so hard?
Deborah McMorran 24:35
So and I would say and interestingly, so when we talk about early loss, within baby loss circles, for some people that will be referred to as a chemical pregnancy. So within the first few weeks, if you've had a positive pregnancy test, and then either the tests start to become lighter, and then you have a bleed, or, you know, it's within that sort of very first period and people will run Back to that as a chemical pregnancy, and they will say, years ago, you might not have even missed a period by that stage, you might not have realised you might just have had a heavier period the next time, all of these things and so for a lot of people, there is an there should be no classification in terms of a hierarchy of loss. But there does sometimes tend to be, you know, some people will, generally not between parents who have had a loss, because I think we all understand just how awful it is no matter how far along the way. But in any community, in any society, there will always be some that feel, oh, gosh, well, mine wasn't so far. So I don't have the right to be so sad, or you know, you can't help it. That's just that's just human nature. But for me, I think that was the time that I thought, oh, okay, it's not all plain sailing, that's maybe things aren't going to work out how I expected them to. And actually, it meant that I would never have another pregnancy that I could enjoy. And I think that's why it was so painful. Because I think for anybody who has had loss, even though there are aspects of future pregnancy that you can enjoy, you will never have a worry free pregnancy, or those heady days of the pregnancy prior to loss, where you just plan and you plan for the future. And you're excited and you pick names, and you may be by things I'm doing in inverted commas before you should, you know, because actually, you just assume it will be fine. And after you've suffered loss, there will never be a time that you can just do all of those things, you might still do them. But there will always be something in the back of your mind saying we might not get to bring this baby home. And for us, that never went away. And it meant that with every subsequent pregnancy, of which there were a few, the levels of anxiety were obviously through the roof. And each time that it happened, obviously they got higher. And, you know, being hugely stressed and hugely worried is not conducive. A to A easy pregnancy, but also not very easy on being a mother of which let's not forget, I still have my daughter at home, who by this stage is 1, 2, 3, 4...
Emma Pickett 27:45
Yeah. Do you mind me asking Deborah about your husband? I don't mean to pry in his. He's a private person. What was his experience of that loss? And how, how did you manage as a couple in that at that time?
Deborah McMorran 27:58
So I think the first one, I think he didn't take that too hard, not in the same way that I did. He was incredibly supportive. You know, when I was saying, I want to buy a tree for the garden, and I want to, you know, do this, that and the other and I want to buy a ring to remember the baby buying all of these things, you know? Absolutely. You know, there was no question, he was happy for me to do whatever I need to do. But I think he still was very much of the opinion that we'll try again. You know, there was no question that we were only going to have one child really. So you know, as far as he was concerned? Well, this happens to people. And you know, it was very early. He's, he's quite a sort of pragmatic person. And so although it was very sad, he wasn't devastated probably in the same way that I was.
Emma Pickett 28:48
And did that give you comfort? Or do you think if he had been devastated that would have given you a partner in that experience?
Deborah McMorran 28:55
Um, yes. And no, I think it was probably helpful. And also because we had a child, you know, we couldn't both just fall apart at the seams. And yeah, I think I think at that stage, because, because it was early, and there we go again, I think probably Yeah, it was what I needed at the time. And for a lot of people and you see it happening again and again. When people lose a baby, it's very hard not to become fixated on getting pregnant again. Whether that's the right thing to do, whether it's not the right thing to do. It's really hard not to do that. And although if you do fall pregnant again, you're not replacing what you've lost. It's the only thing you can do. Like, you feel so I don't know you you feel so out of control. Everything is out of your control, and actually trying to get pregnant again, focusing on your ovulation dates, you know, all of those things. That's something you can do. That's something you can control you can I don't know I'm quite an ordered person and I like to be able to make lists and I like to be able to To put things in boxes and categorise things and so I guess for me in many ways, the fact that he wasn't, you know, sort of distraught about it, and that he was just oh, well, you know, we'll we'll try again. And that's, you know, that will be okay. I guess that probably then gave me licence to just say, oh, okay, well, I'll focus on that, then. I'll just just work out how that's gonna happen. Yeah. So yes, I think it was what I needed at the time.
Emma Pickett 30:26
I'm going to ask you a difficult question. You mentioned we talked about your daughter being born, being in that pottery cafe for days and being smug. Do you think that's you now post loss, looking back at those early days, and being crossed with yourself and not appreciating how special that was? Enough? Is that do you think that's what's happening there?
Deborah McMorran 30:46
Yeah, I think so. And I think, in many ways, I think, uh, you know, we see so many, particularly on Instagram, we see so many memes, and poems, and all of these sorts of things about motherhood, and all telling you, you know, we go so fast, and, you know, soak up all of these things, and possessions don't matter. And it's about the time you spend and the memories you make, and all of these things. And I think for me, I was really absorbed in needing to sort of show her off to the world, maybe be very proud of what I done. And to sort of say, Oh, look, what I've achieved, you know, and, and I guess, I thought at that time, that that's what being a mum was about, that it was about going and doing all these things, you know, things that I'd probably because I was coming to motherhood a bit behind a fair number of my friends. I'd seen all of the things that they had done. And I think I was just in quite a rush to catch up. You know, their kids were all sort of two, three years old. And they'd probably done all of those things. Like when the child was six months old, or something. And I'd gone oh, well, that I'm, you know, I'm going to do all of those things. I'm going to do it right now. And I think, I definitely wonder whether had I done things differently and had I just stayed at home. And had I just sort of been gentle on myself, and gentle on her these tiny, newborn baby because she was tiny. Maybe we'd have had time to explore each other a bit more, we might have had time and our feeding journey might have been quite different. Regardless of whether we'd had support from other people or not, and I'm not blaming myself for that.
Emma Pickett 32:41
Are you not, Deborah?
Deborah McMorran 32:43
Well, ah, yeah, I am!
Emma Pickett 32:44
You blooming well are. You're so hard on yourself, which I'm sure makes you a brilliant, because you're so you're probably so reflective, and you really hold yourself to high standards. But Blimey, you've just told me that you think it's your fault? And you know, you did you pretty much said whether or not we had external help, if only I'd mother differently in those early months.
Deborah McMorran 33:06
You know, I think I regret it, I really, I really regret it. And I regret him massively in hindsight, because, and this will sound awful if my, if my sister, if my daughter ever listens to this in years to come. She will think, Gosh, Mom, that's not fair. The bond that I have with my son through breastfeeding is not better than the bond that I have had with my daughter and that I have with my daughter. But it's different. It is definitely different. And I am sad, and I mourn the fact that I didn't have that with her. And whether I blame myself for that, or whether I am angry with other people that they didn't help me to get that. But it is a huge part of why I'm qualified as a peer supporter, huge part. Because I don't want anybody else to feel that they didn't get to do what they wanted to do, had they had the support.
Emma Pickett 34:02
Yeah. And I also think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, I'm, I don't get to tell you not to blame yourself. I mean, I'm not the gatekeeper of this conversation. If you want to be cross with yourself, you know, go ahead and be crossing the self. That's, you know, I don't have permission to do it. Either way. But But, but I bet if you heard a mum tell this story, these exact words that you're using now, you would say to her, for goodness, I love you've got to be kinder to yourself, where you're talking about this and the breastfeeding bond, you know, we could have another hour talking about that is, is easy in some ways, isn't it for everybody, but there is a you know, physiologically chemical. Yeah, it's chemical. There are shortcuts. You've got oxytocin flying around, you know, obviously, we know families where there's no breastfeeding and beautiful bonded relationships. But it takes a bit more work. It takes a bit more conscious effort takes a bit more thinking about and I think probably it's inevitable that there will be a difference to that. Yeah, I don't mean to To dwell on your own experience with your daughter and make you feel badly about that. I'm just wondering whether, retrospectively you're being even tougher on yourself. But it sounds as though you already were thinking that you had some choices that you would have done differently.
Deborah McMorran 35:14
And I also think that I probably am hard on myself maybe for that or harder now than I was at the time, because actually, I know, and I do want people to know that I was not hard on myself about it at the time, I was really happy in my choice. I didn't feel uncomfortable about it. I really, truly felt that it was the right thing. And I think at the time, it was the right thing, because the pumping around the clock was really detrimental to my mental health. And I felt as though we couldn't go anywhere. I felt like we couldn't do anything because we were at home. And funnily enough, looking back on that, when I was within that same time period with my son, I didn't want to go anywhere, I want to go out of the house, I wanted to stay at home and feed him all day long. And I guess that's the difference is that different times of my life, different life experiences. Because by the time that we came to have my son, I really was at the point of cherishing every second and wanting to just sit there and drink him in and have that time, just me and him. Because we never thought that he would be here. So by that stage, my entire mindset had completely changed.
Emma Pickett 36:30
Yeah, yeah. Tell me about your next pregnancy, Deborah.
Deborah McMorran 36:35
So the next pregnancy was in the July of that year. So we lost the first baby on Valentine's Day. And then I was pregnant again. So must have been pregnant again, by the May or June. And everything was looking fine. Everything was all fairly straightforward. And we went to we had had, had had a car accident, I'd had a small car accident, just bashed in the car. And I'd panicked a bit and thought that the seatbelt might have jolted me or something. So we went to a, you know, sort of one of these private, you know, where you can just pay to have a scan, like an early scan, seen the baby scene heartbeat. So as far as I was concerned, happy as Larry, wonderful. There's my baby, this is great. This isn't going to be like last time. And then we went for the 12 week scan. And there was no heartbeat. And like anybody who's ever heard those words, my world fell apart. I'd seen the baby that can't be right. I've seen the baby, there is a heartbeat. But there wasn't. And so thankfully, I have my husband with me. This was 2018. So July 2018. And they actually just into a side room. And they handed me some leaflets. And they said, I'm so sorry. We can talk through what you'd like to do. Would you like to go home? And, you know, have the baby have the miscarriage naturally? Or would you like us to arrange for a surgical procedure, and I decided that what was best for me because we had my daughter at home was to go ahead with that, then it could be managed in hospital. And I couldn't imagine going home, looking after her and having it happen at home. Because obviously, you know, that, that while it just wasn't going to work for me. So they then spoke about what would we like to do with the remains? Would we like to have information, you know, and they're just asking you all of these things. They've literally told you 10 minutes before that you've lost your baby. And then they're wanting to ask you all of these questions, and how do you know how do you know the answers to all of these things? And I know mothers who have made a decision really quickly in that setting, and then regretted it, because they didn't really have time to think about it. And then you know, but for us it was it was straightforward because we have a church that we go to. And all of my grandparents and ancestors going back generations are buried there. So I said, I will want to bury my baby. So we went in for the procedure. And it was fairly straightforward. I was under general anaesthetic and my husband was there with me when I woke up and we went home and you know, it was terribly sad. And I think I bought another tree for the garden. But his point is, you know, I sort of knew what to do. I went through the motions. I went through the motions, all the things that I had done the time before
Emma Pickett 39:53
That phrase 'going through the motions'. It sounds like you're a little bit numb.
Deborah McMorran 39:58
Totally. I'm still numb about it now. How many years after we five years later, I'm still completely numb about it. And I've had counselling. And I've spoken to people and I've spoken to my friends. And I'm sure at some point, it will all come crashing out. But I yeah, I am. I'm very numb about it. And I think probably it's self preservation, I guess. And some of that is because we had a child.
Emma Pickett 40:22
Yeah, I was just gonna say, Do you think that's what it was? Yeah, definitely. Not that everyone is numb. And there are people who aren't have to cap to carry on and parent but there was something that almost didn't allow yourself to know,
Deborah McMorran 40:34
and, and grief, there is no right way to grieve. There is no right or wrong way to grieve. And so I have seen people that have completely fallen apart and taken to their bed for six months. I've seen people who have sort of completely dismissed it and just got on with it. There is no way it's however, you have to do it, you do it. And so, again, I just said, right. Well, we need to try again. And my poor husband. I think he just by this point was like, Oh my God, whatever you whatever you need, whatever you need, of course, you know, and I was just distraught about the idea by this stage, that we weren't going to have another baby.
Emma Pickett 41:22
Yeah. Did you ever have counselling at this point? Deborah, you mentioned you'd have had counselling?
Deborah McMorran 41:26
No. So the counselling that I had was only last year, so four years after the event. I was never offered counselling. Through the hospital, I was never offered a bereavement midwife, I was never offered, like any kind of counselling. So the only counselling that I have had was after my son had been born. My Livingston. So we then found out we were pregnant immediately after this loss, like pretty much the next month or something. And at around that time, we got the post mortem results from the baby. And they said, Well, you mustn't, you mustn't get pregnant, because you've had a partial molar pregnancy. And I said, Well, what does that mean? And they said, well, basically, you know, it's in our, in our particular circumstance, it's where two sperm fertilised one egg. So there are too many chromosomes and the baby had died. There was no heartbeat, the baby had had a heartbeat and then didn't have heartbeat. So the baby had died. But you mustn't get pregnant. Because I laugh about it. It's obviously not funny. It's ridiculous. We hadn't been told not to get pregnant.
Emma Pickett 42:49
No one had even said it was a risk to being given all these leaflets. Yeah, and no, no conversation at all about waiting.
Deborah McMorran 42:56
And of course, for many people, you know, you'll hear people within the last community saying, you're much more likely to get pregnant straight after you've lost a baby, because your body's kind of ready for it, and the can, you know, the hormone levels and everything. So it's actually quite common for people to get pregnant quite quickly after a loss. So I said, Well, what does that mean? And they said, well, it might mean that there are like cancerous cells, you know, we need to make sure that your CG levels drop completely back to zero before you were to call pregnant again. Otherwise, we won't know whether it's HCG rising because you're pregnant, or whether I can't remember all of the details. So you've had a positive pregnancy test. You've heard I'd had a positive pregnancy test, and I am pregnant again. So they were really cross with me. Which again, is completely ridiculous, because hang on here. I am a bereaved mother, a bereaved pregnant mother. And you are telling me, I mean, I can't even go into how ridiculous it was that I went to pick up. I went to go and pick up the remains of our baby, for burial. And I said, I want I want to look at the baby. And they said, the baby's in formaldehyde. If you're pregnant, you shouldn't touch it. I mean, it was just there's so much about it, which is just ridiculous. And so we buried the baby. I was indeed pregnant. And we went and I had to have, you know, the went and had early scans and blah, blah, blah, and saw a heartbeat. Great. And we went to the 12 week scan. And the consultant said to me, I don't know how to say this. But there's no heartbeat and the noise that came out of me you know. And my poor husband just held me as I cried.
Deborah McMorran 45:05
And again, they took us into his room, handed us some leaflets. And, you know, of course, by that point, you're sort of at the Golden, three, whereby they'll actually look into why it might be happening. And I know that Tommy's in various baby loss charities are working really hard to change that. And I think the legislation is changing, or is in the process of changing if it hasn't already done so. But because the first one we'd had was not sort of recorded because it was at home. You know, there was some question as to whether that would be the case, but they said, you know, we can see a consultant and you know, you can sort of look into why this is happening. And so they bonded us off with the more leaflets booked in a surgical procedure. And off, we trotted back home.
Emma Pickett 45:55
Oh, I just can't imagine that. You hadn't even had a chance to begin to process? No, you know, the birth and loss? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And here we go again. And when you went in for that scan, you mentioned that you've had felt a level of anxiety throughout your pregnancy? Had you allowed yourself to hope but, of course, so you had the so despite the anxiety you definitely had...
Deborah McMorran 46:22
There was definite hope. Yeah. And I don't think I think by that stage, you know, you're sort of thinking, well, we've been unlucky, but who can be that unlucky? Yeah, it turns out, we could. So off we went, that was the October of 2018. And so we went home, and, you know, spent time with our daughter, and got on with life as you do for another tree. And by this point, you know, I was really fixated on all of the things that come with that, you know, like making sure that the grave looks beautiful, taking flowers to it, making sure there was a lovely headstone, which I of course, had to keep getting updated. Every time that we had to bury another baby, I was having to get the plaque taken away and re engraved. I mean, it was just, you know, like the sort of the, the actual specifics of all of the sort of admin of things that I was making myself do, nobody else was making me do those things. There's no rush to do those things. But as I think we've probably established, I'm a bit of an all or nothing kind of girl. And I needed to, I needed to do those things. I couldn't bear the thought that I wasn't doing those things sort of as soon as possible, which was ridiculous. I didn't need to put myself under that pressure. And then life carried on and our daughter was fantastic. And she's just gorgeous. And she was a total joy, total joy. And, you know, she was getting older, she was going to preschool. And I was okay. And I am okay. And you know, there would be things there would be things that would upset me. I remember they had like a registration question when they went into preschool in the morning. And it was their way of saying that they were there. So they got their name, and they put it in a basket? To answer a question. One of the questions I used to have was, Do you have a brother or sister and it just used to kick he used to kill me, every time they did it. They used to come out every I know, five or six days. And every time they did, and I just thought I need to say something to them. Because it's not right. There are lots of people that don't have a sibling for lots of reasons. And it was really triggering for me, that it was confusing for her because she knew she had siblings that we visited in the graveyard. But she was like, three, four. And, you know, it was just awful. And so other than that, on a day to day basis, I was okay. And we sorted just took off the off the pedal a bit, you know, think we needed time to recover, we needed time to sort of heal. And then COVID in COVID happened 2020 And we were at home, and everybody was painting rainbows and it was all lovely. And we were having a really nice time. You know, my husband was at home all the time. It was great. You know, he had worked and does still work in quite a stressful job in London. But he was here all the time. And it was just really nice. You've got to spend proper time with our daughter. And we live in the middle of the countryside. So we were in a really blessed position during COVID Because we just walked out the door and we're in the forest. So we had lots of lovely walks. We baked a lot of banana bread, and I fell pregnant again. And of course that was a completely different story because couldn't just go straight into the early pregnancy unit. You couldn't just do all of the things that you've done before. Because code Read, it was really early in the stages of COVID. And so I couldn't just go and have like private scans and they stopped the other. And I got to sort of five or so weeks that I started to bleed. And so I found the early pregnancy unit. And I said, you know, this is what's happening. And I assume I'm having a miscarriage. And a midwife, text me, I don't know why they didn't ring me, but they text me and said, you'll need to come in for a scan, because you might, it might be fine. And I remember thinking, Oh, well, I just assumed it wasn't gonna be fine. And now you've given me hope. Now, I'm hoping that it might be okay. But I sort of knew that it probably wouldn't be. And so I went in for a scan. And it was really odd, because, you know, obviously was nobody there. And there were everyone was in masks for the first time. And that was just a very different feel. And my husband couldn't come with me. So he sat in the car park, as I went in, and was told that we'd lost our fourth pregnancy. So I sat in the room on my own.
Emma Pickett 51:11
Yeah, so sorry. You've mentioned having him with you before. Yeah. And I can tell how important that had been in those previous experiences, and how much you needed him in those moments. And in that, in that horrible 10 minute leaflet shuffling, because you really needed Him and you and you had to phone him and he was in the car, I can't imagine what that felt like, let alone what it felt like to go through it. I'm so sorry
Deborah McMorran 51:32
and so I sat in the room that I've sat in so many times before, and the bereavement midwife or the the early pregnancy unit midwife who had seen me through all my previous losses, stood in front of me with a visor, and a mask, I could only see her eyes. And she said, I can't, I can't touch you. She couldn't, she couldn't hug me and she couldn't put her head she couldn't even put her hand on my arm. Because of COVID restrictions. So she couldn't, she couldn't comfort me in any way. And when you can only see somebody's eyes, you can see so much in somebody's eyes, but it's not the same. So that was really hard. And I know, you know, again, I'm not playing the comparison game, because I know that so many people will have had have have had to give birth to babies they've lost. They will have you know, all sorts of things, which, during COVID, which were just unacceptable, just unacceptable on so many levels. And again, that's a whole different podcast. But yeah, that was really hard. And then they said, We think it might be ectopic. So, golly, I said, All right. Okay, well, I'm taking off the list here. I'm going to have had all of the different types of loss. Okay, so what does that mean? And they said, Well, okay, you go home, but you need to be like, if you start getting any pain in your shoulder, I think it was I can't remember the details, but they gave me a list of things. And they said, if any of these things you need to come straight in. So I went home thinking, not only am I either, maybe potentially still carrying a baby, but it might be ectopic. But also I might die. If it is and, you know, we don't get a hospital thing in time. And there were various options. They gave me various options that they could give me a certain medication. There was all sorts of different things. But basically, all they could really do is monitor my levels to see if they were going to drop naturally.
Emma Pickett 53:43
So they couldn't scan to check for an ectopic pregnancy?
Deborah McMorran 53:46
So they scanned, but they couldn't tell. Okay. They couldn't tell. They said they could see something in the lining. And I said, but that could just be a really, I remember, it's, that could just be a really early pregnancy sack. Can you give me progesterone? I said, I know that that's the thing that they do. Sometimes they give people progesterone if you've had bleeding. And they said to me, if you had come in on a Tuesday, the consultant that works on a Tuesday believes in that the consultants that work on the other days don't. So they didn't. And I passed the baby I think a week later at home and it wasn't an ectopic pregnancy. And I'll never know where the progesterone would have saved that baby.
Emma Pickett 54:36
Oh, you're so calm. I mean, I know you're angry. I can tell. How are you not camping, camping in a tent outside the hospital. I don't know how you're able to function.
Deborah McMorran 54:47
So I think about a month after that happened. Tommy's has published research to prove that women who have birthing parents who have had more three or more miscarriages progesterone should be given at something called the prism trial. And that trial meant that I'm 99% sure that it's due to that trial that my son is here. So we at that stage, we said, That's it, we can't we can't do it. We can't, we can't keep doing this. And I begged my you know, I said to my house, I can't I want another baby, I want another baby. We can't keep doing this. We can't keep doing this. And I saw something on Instagram. Some of my husband, my husband hates me going on Instagram all the time. And it said something about it was I think someone messaged me, or I saw something where this woman basically said that she had tried so hard to have another baby that she'd missed her daughter growing up. And I realised that that's what I was doing. And I realised that I was so fixated on bringing a sibling home for her that she was actually losing her mother. So that changed things for me massively. And that's not right for everybody. I'm not, you know, I would never ever begin to tell somebody else how to deal with this situation. But for me, I realised that that's what was happening. So I stopped, I stopped, we stopped thinking about another baby. And and then we thought I had cancer. So I mean, this is ridiculous. It just sounds ridiculous. It I don't want anyone listening by this point is probably like turning off and thinking, God, this is just ridiculous. And it seems ridiculous. But it does all end well. So, so bear with us. And I thought, I can't believe it after all of this. I'm not, you know, this is just absurd. And my mother had bowel cancer. And she's fine. She recovered. But because of that, it was more likely. And there were symptoms, and they've scanned every conceivable part of me. And the only thing left to do was to have a CT scan. And it was booked for like the February I think this was before Christmas. And I thought, You know what, blow this, if I'm going to have cancer, I'm gonna get myself in the best possible shape to fight it. Because I was really overweight, was really unfair. I, at terribly, didn't do any exercise. So I started running and hated it, like I hated it. Like you couldn't imagine I was always the last in cross country at school, huffing and puffing up a field like I'm not, I've always said, I'm built for comfort, not for speed. And I definitely was not built for running. But I hated it. And my husband kept going, come on, let's go out and do a run. And I was like, I hate it. The first time I did it, we ran to our local donut shop and I had to stop about five times it's a it's a mile away. And I was nearly dead by the time we got there. And I then did that every modelling two or three times a week. And I thought, at some point, the thing that people say they love about running, that's got to happen. At some point, if I keep doing it, maybe it'll happen. about the third week, I thought I didn't hate it today. I didn't love it. But I didn't hate it. I thought, okay, that's different. So I kept going.
Emma Pickett 58:08
And you're still waiting at this point for results. To get you're still you're being investigated, but don't have any answers
Deborah McMorran 58:16
Yeah, I'm waiting for the results. And all I think I had the date, but it was ages away. It was like six weeks in advance. And then I started to quite enjoy it. And I started to realise that it gave me headspace that I hadn't had probably hadn't had since before my daughter was born. And then I started to go on longer runs and longer runs and longer runs. And I was sort of just say, I'm going on a run, don't know when I'll be back. And within probably five or six weeks, I'd started to lose quite a lot of weight. And it wasn't the aim. That wasn't at all part of it, but it just was happening. And it got to the point where I needed to start eating more because I actually didn't have enough wasn't take on enough carbs to sustain the amount of running I was doing. And I got to the point where I just couldn't stop I couldn't I was like Forrest Gump I would just like you know, I'm going for a run I might be a while. I don't know how many weeks in I was probably not many. I was raising money I should say as well. I had said that I wanted to run 365 kilometres in I think it was six months to raise money for Tommy's and aching arms charity, and another baby last charity, both of whom obviously had had had a big impact on us. And I had done the kilometres within like a couple of weeks. Or you know so just ridiculous like it was in no way going to take six months. It took like maybe six weeks. And so obviously I had to sort of think of a different, something that I was going to do. And the money came rolling in it At the mall has been rolling past. And it got to the point where I was feeling better than I'd ever felt in my life. And the scan date came round and I went with the scan. And thank God, it was clear, it was fine. But by this point, I was completely addicted to running. And I would do a half marathon on a Tuesday, I would do 10k On a Thursday and 5k to warm myself down on a Friday. Every week, I was doing this Wow. And I've never felt better in my life, I felt mentally strong, I felt physically strong. Everything was better for it everything that home life was better for it. My daughter was benefiting because I was like in a really good mood all the time and not snapping at her. And I sort of had a conversation, my husband and I just said, I just wonder something in the back of my head again, with the blaming myself, I just wonder if I had been this fit before. And this strong weather we wouldn't have had the losses that we had. And he said, but we're not having that conversation or when I said no. We're not having that conversation. No, definitely not. And I think a week later, I showed him a positive pregnancy test. And he was like, Oh, okay. How are we going to get through the next nine months? Stress wise? How are we going to get through it? Because, you know, both of us are immediately expecting this pregnancy not to come to fruition? We're not we don't we're not going to get to bring another baby home just not going to happen for us.
Emma Pickett 1:01:40
Is that his voice, or that's your voice?
Deborah McMorran 1:01:42
Both of us. I think we both he was worried for me, I was worried for the baby. Because the whole way through it, he'd always kept saying, you know, his main priority, and all of it was always me. He said, I can't watch you go through that again. You know, and that was always his concern. And it was always led by whether I felt strong enough to put myself through it again. But you know, I think there's so much misunderstanding about how partners in loss, whether that's a female partner, whether that's a male partner, whatever, you know, they feel it so acutely. And actually, they maybe feel it double, because they feel it for you. And they feel it for themselves. And so, you know, that's really hard. But again, you know, that's, that's his story. And I wouldn't begin to try and tell it. So you know that, but but at that point, certainly both of us were very worried about how that might play out.
Emma Pickett 1:02:40
Did you have any more information after the first post mortem? You didn't have any further information about?
Deborah McMorran 1:02:45
Yeah, so we had post mortem for this for the second surgical procedure, and there was nothing wrong with the baby. And I found that really hard, because I was like, well, it's me then. Because if there's nothing wrong with the baby, why did it happen? And I just want to say, for anybody that's listening, and anybody that suffered loss, it isn't your fault. It's never your fault. And that's the one thing and I think that's part of my whole breastfeeding story is that there's a huge amount of guilt. And there's a huge amount of me feeling like my body, let me down and my body let my husband down, and our babies, and I couldn't, I couldn't keep them. And that's something that I've got to continue to work on. It's something that I know that a lot of people that have had loss will blame themselves. And it's natural to do that. But it's not right to do that, because it isn't your fault. And hopefully, in time, people will come to understand that for themselves, you know, if that's their story, too. But there was no way with this. What would now be our sick pregnancy, which I had to keep saying to everybody, you know, everybody you come across goes, Oh, second child. And I'd say, six pregnancy, second child, and then they sort of go, oh, even though I had a huge label on my pregnancy notes, saying, you know, all the information, nobody ever looks at them. Nobody reads them. Or I said in my situation, they didn't. Some hospitals and some care trusts are much better than other. And I rang my GP, about the day after I found out I was pregnant. And I said, you're going to prescribe me progesterone. And they said, Oh, that's not It's not licenced do we'd have to do off licence? And that's not? I said, No, you. You didn't give it to me last time. I wasn't given it by the hospital last time. And we lost the baby. I want you to prescribe me progesterone. I said, Tommy's have done this research. They had no idea about it. They'd never heard of it. I had to tell them what it was. I had to tell them the amount to prescribe me. They knew nothing about it. And I said right, okay. And what really worries me is that I knew to advocate for myself, and a lot of people wouldn't.
Emma Pickett 1:04:58
And you're not under the care of any specialist at this point in there's no, you know, no pregnancy after loss team, there's nothing like that you're literally phoning your GP and sending them a link.
Deborah McMorran 1:05:07
Yeah, exactly. So they prescribed it. And of course, there was also a national shortage of it at that time. So that made it even more interesting. And my parents were driving all around the county and the next county, you know, trying to get stocks with it and supplies bid. And well, you know, so it was a fraud pregnancy, I was anxious the whole time. Every scan was horrendous, you know, and all of those things, it was all really difficult. But I should say I'd asked for help. I'd asked for help from the Mental Health midwife at around week six. Think they rang me at week 36? So yeah, but shortages in the NHS, you know? And we make all these excuses, but it's not okay. It's not acceptable. And it's not okay. Absolutely not. And so so as you can imagine, my mental health took a bit of a battering throughout that time. And every time that I didn't feel move, every time that you know, just everything about it was stressful, and we ended up spending quite a lot of money, going private for scans, having reassurance scans, paying for tests, you know, all sorts of things that we just have to pay for. And we were in a very fortunate position that we could afford to do that, but a lot of people couldn't. when we very first found out we were pregnant, we saw a fantastic consultant in London via zoom, because again, it was sort of still in that weird when you can't really see people face. And he just said, Look, you know, you're doing, you're doing what you need to be doing. He said caffeine out, you know, so when I really, really needed to have chocolate, I couldn't have chocolate. So that wasn't, that was hard.
Emma Pickett 1:06:52
Let me ask you about the evidence behind that. What's that about that?
Deborah McMorran 1:06:55
I don't know. I don't know. It was just something that he said to do. And obviously, by that point, I was willing to take any advice from anybody about you have to follow those rules.
Emma Pickett 1:07:07
Knowing you, you will not to allow yourself to not follow those rules.
Deborah McMorran 1:07:09
There was no way. So even if it was a case of like, you could have a bit of something I wasn't having any of it. I took on board, everything I'd read from anywhere, I'd read in a book that beetroot juice was good for something or other to Central Health or something. So I was drinking beetroot juice, I was obviously taking my vitamins I was doing, you know, literally all of the things that I could possibly do to keep control of the things I could control. So we finally obviously spoke to the mental health midwife at like week 36. And she was very jolly, and very nice. And oh, great. Well, what can we do to help you? Sometimes like, right, well, I'm very, very anxious about about the birth, you know, I'm really anxious about being in the hospital, I'm really used to various things that I was really worried about. And as it turned out, all of the things that apparently were put in place didn't happen, because I sort of said that I, you know, I thought it would help me if I could be in a separate room rather than on a ward, you know, had various anxieties about after the baby was here. And obviously, none of those things were possible on the day, and I ended up on a ward and it was all fine. But we got to week 38. And I had reduced movements, and hadn't actually had a scan or hadn't had a hospital scan since week 80 I think, which was my like 20 week scan, because they sometimes do a bit early and said, Oh, you've not been scammed since like week 18. I think we'll just get you in for a scam. So they scanned me and they said, Oh, he's huge. And I was like, All right. Okay, all sort of wasn't expecting that, because that's not been how he's measured, you know, the whole way along. And they said, Oh, we think you might have gestational diabetes. So I had gestational diabetes for 24 hours before he came out, so had a C section. And they said to me, so because of his size, they said you can either have him naturally. And we'll have a crash team in the room. And I was like, right, that was due to have him induced anyway, because I said there's no way that I was going to go to 40 weeks, I didn't feel like I could mentally make it to that stage. So he was due to be induced at 39 weeks, but at 38 weeks, they said you have to have a crash team in the room because he'll either possibly break his shoulder on the way out or be starved of oxygen because of his size. And I was like right, I can't I can't do this. I can't, I can't having now got to the point of finally having him I can't do this. And I said well what's the other option? And they said well, we can book you in for a C section like tomorrow or the next day and I suggest please and I cried I cried about it. I didn't want to see section and I feel really passionate about sections now. I know they're not necessarily what everybody would say is their initial choice. But you know what, given the choice of my baby being here safely in my arms, or my baby, maybe not being here? There was no question. There was absolutely no question. And I remember I sobbed to my husband and I said, I won't feel like I've done it. And he just said, shut up.
Emma Pickett 1:10:25
And I said, your husband, I have to say, I'm waving your flag, your husband there, because bless him!
Deborah McMorran 1:10:32
He said, You have carried that baby. For nine months. You have done everything. This is one day. This is just No, just just Yes, we will book it in Yes, just to stop. And I know that people have all sorts of emotions bound up with how they deliver their baby. And a lot of people have trauma surrounding the delivery. And there's all sorts of mental health implications with that. But you know what I could not have. It was perfect. It was perfect. They had Vance Joy playing over the speakers as they made their incision. I think he was actually born, he had red hair when he was born, and he was born to the line. I miss your ginger hair. On Amy Winehouse, Valerie, as he was brought up, it was just perfect. Everything about it was perfect. He was enormous. And he was just wonderful. Everything about him was just everything before, just fell away. And as they gave him to me, and I caught a live photo, because obviously sort of someone else is using your phone. And obviously nobody knows how to do it properly. So I wanted photographs taken. But I only found out afterwards that because they were live photographs. When I hold them, I can hear myself talking to him. And I'm just saying hello to him over and over again. And I'm obviously just in floods of tears. By the time they wheeled me through, took something like I don't know, 17 minutes or something from knife incision to, you know, like, might be even less than that it was took no time at all. They wheeled through to the recovery room by the time they wheeled us through. He was latching he was thirsty and hungry. And he knew exactly what to do. And he has not stopped since.
Emma Pickett 1:12:32
I'm so glad to hear you had that experience that's really special. So you had so much going on your head just prior to the birth. Had you had any mental space to think about breastfeeding. And towards the end of your pregnancy? What did you say?
Deborah McMorran 1:12:45
I had sterilised my pump, let's put it that way. I knew I was going to try. I hadn't done any research. I hadn't had any help. I hadn't got the phone number of my local IBCLC to hand I'd hadn't done anything hadn't got any pre prepping. Obviously, we hadn't done NCT or anything this time around which we had done the first time around. And actually, I think I missed the breastfeeding session. For some reason I think my car was broken or something. So maybe that would have been helpful the first time around. But we didn't have anything the second time around. And I just because I knew how well or how well I thought that formula had worked with my daughter. I wasn't worried. In fact, I'd got bottles of premade formula in my bag, ready for if we needed them. And I think I was so fixated on him actually being here that I hadn't really thought past that. It was like that was the day and anything after that would just have to happen. Yeah, I hadn't really considered it. And I think they were quite surprised, you know, when he was just there, and he was just doing it. And I could take their credit. But I will say this, you know, when people talk about breastfeeding, it's both of you, you know, it's not just you and what you can do, they have a massive bar to play in it. And it's very much something that you do together. And we can help them and we can show them and you know, there's guidance, and there's positions and there's attachment. And there's all of those things. But I was really, really lucky that he seemed to know what to do. And he had that biological instinct, where he was going and what he was doing and he obviously wasn't quite the breast crawl because I was sort of sliced in half and patched up at this point. But he knew he knew what he wanted. And that then continued over the next I had to stay overnight that night. But there was no it was completely different story. There was no someone coming around and checking that he was getting what he needed. In fact, he was having everything that he could get. And I had taken syringes of colostrum in with me, because we knew what day it was going to happen. And that made it sort of easier that I could prepare a bit more. And I remember to take my frozen colostrum out of the freezer when we were going in, and all of that kind of thing, which might not have happened, have I gone into labour somewhere else, and he'd guzzle all of that down, as well as everything that he could get out of me. By the time, you know, he was a big boy. And it was quite obvious that he was gonna be hungry boy. And, yeah, I think he was on the 95th percentile for weight and height and continues to be now. And I would say, probably 90% of that has been breast milk, because you're not really interested in solid food even now.
Emma Pickett 1:15:29
So he's now two.
Deborah McMorran 1:15:30
Yeah, so he turns to in two weeks time, three weeks time.
Emma Pickett 1:15:33
OK. And you, obviously, you first got in touch with me to talk on this podcast, because that breastfeeding had been a healing experience for you that it had been such a positive experience. Tell me a bit more about how you reflect on how breastfeeding has helped you.
Deborah McMorran 1:15:48
So for me, to watch him. And the effect that breastfeeding has on him. I mean, it's obviously completely different now to how it was in the early days, or even the first six months or anything. He just loves it. He, you know, he's now that he's sort of saying a few words and things, you know, he's just a proper booby monster. And he would take it any time it's offered, you know, if ever people are looking for when they're doing their ABM training, and they need to do a sort of session where they're watching someone feed, I always say, we can do me because he literally take it any time. So it doesn't matter when you need to do it. Because anytime I lift my top up, he's there. But in the first six months or so, it was something that I could do, it was something that I was doing for him. It was a continuation of everything that I'd been doing during my pregnancy. It was, it was so cathartic, it just reset my thinking about myself, it reset how I felt about my body more than anything, it meant that I stopped feeling like my body was a failure, and I end and that it was weak, it made me really realise how strong my body was, and how incredible my body was, that it could make this milk on demand for him. That was perfect for him. That when he was unwell, it adapted that it just, it just was mind blowing for me that my body was doing all of these things. And without me really doing much, you know, it was obvious, obviously, I was doing what I was doing. And again, I'm not being hard on myself. It's not easy. It's a really hard thing to do. But it's just the most incredible thing to do. And he thrived. I mean, he really, he really thrived. And I It wasn't without incident, because he had suspected cow's milk, protein allergy. So I then had to cut out chocolate again, I was cursing him by this stage, because I was thinking when am I ever going to get to eat chocolate again. So I cut out all dairy and all soya and all sorts of things, because we had to eliminate things to try and work out what it was. But I happen, you know, people said, Oh, give him formula. You know, because you can give a prescription formula if he's got cow's milk, milk, protein allergy. And I said, You know what, it has taken me a really, really long time to get him here. And it's been a really hard thing to get him here. If I have to go without milk, or dairy in my diet for a few months, I'll probably be okay. So, I did do that. And that in itself was amazing. Because I thought when he eats other things, or if I have milk in my diet, and it makes him poorly. It makes me feel really amazing that I can give him milk. And it's exactly what he needs. It's the right thing for his body. It's the right thing that he can tolerate. And that was wonderful. And when we saw an allergy specialist, they just said, Just look at him. He's, you know, he's obviously doing well. And every time somebody said to me, gosh, he's big, or it just made me feel amazing, because I knew that that was all coming from me. I knew that that was all from my body that I had grown this strong, huge boy. And it was all coming from me. And that just it just felt so what healing healing is the only word that after everything that we've been through. It felt right. It felt natural. It felt like something that had been done for generations and generations before me. It felt like I was finally doing the thing that I had always wanted to do. And it was working. It is working. It's still working. Still Now, you know, if he hurts himself, if he falls over is the first thing you asked for. And I still breastfeed him to sleep, I feed him for naps. I, you know, it's, it's my ultimate mothering tool, I use it, if I need him to shut up, if anything, like you can use it for anything. And, you know, it just it has felt totally different. Obviously, it's felt different, because it's a completely different outcome to the pregnancies that came before it. But it has extended my I don't know if we'd call it not it's not my maternity, you know, period. But it's sort of it has made me feel like I am fully mothering him still. And I'm obviously practising sort of natural term breastfeeding, so he will stop when he's ready to stop. And sometimes that feels a lot. Quite often that feels a lot when he's sort of clawing at me, and I'm trying to get the dinner ready or something. But it just feels as though everything is kind of finally happening, how it's supposed to happen. After feeling like the world was stacked against me. It feels as though it has come back round. And not I found my place that I need to be.
Emma Pickett 1:21:24
Yeah, well, I'm so glad you felt that, Deborah. And it sounds as though your losses have allowed you to cherish this in a way that you can see it through a different set of eyes that you you, you're looking at in a different way, which has helped give you some of that sense of joy and appreciation as well, not to say I'm sure there are hard days, you mentioned before that you'd had some count, and you'd had some counselling, but quite recently, so it was that after he was born that you had been to counselling.
Deborah McMorran 1:21:53
Interestingly, and again, it doesn't paint the NHS in the best light. We unfortunately had a not very good GP, who was looking after us and looking after the children and me. And within the first six months or so both of the kids had various different bugs or illnesses or tonsillitis or various different things. So I had to keep taking them to the doctor. And the doctor said, You come in a lot. I was like, we asked if the children are ill. And he was like, Well, do you think do you think it might be used? And I was like, Well, no, because the children are ill, you know, that's why I'm bringing them and every time I bought them, you've told me that they are indeed ill. And that I've trusted my instincts. And I brought them in because I've looked in their throat and I think there's something wrong. And you've had to admit that yes, there is something wrong and prescribe them something. So not really sure what you're getting at. And he said, Well, I think I think maybe you haven't grieved, and that this is sort of presenting yourself and I said Are you are you sort of implying like I'm inventing these illnesses for my children, because I'm a bit anxious as a mother. I said, I think that's quite normal for a mother. That's parenting after loss. And you'd be pleased to hear I have moved GPS since then. But he basically said I'd like you to have counselling. And I said, Okay, fine. Wasn't really convenient. I didn't really have time with a sort of six month old baby to be fitting in hours counselling into my, into my day. But I had three months that he wanted me to do. He sort of implied that I had to do. So I did it. And it was helpful. I don't think she spoke about the losses more than for about five minutes in the whole three months of counselling. So I'm not sure how useful it was. But what I probably should have done was sought a different counsellor.
Emma Pickett 1:23:53
Yeah, so it sounds as though you were sort of pulled into it without you necessarily consenting to that process. I do think maybe the GP sent something in you. I'm not saying he thought you were inventing strep throat or anything. But do you think you sense that maybe there was that you hadn't quite processed it? And maybe that opinion was valid?
Deborah McMorran 1:24:11
Yeah. I think had he phrased it differently, perhaps if he'd said it to me when I had gone in for myself. And he'd said, Okay, shall we talk about that as well, because I don't think you've ever received the support you deserved. That might have been received differently. I think, as a mother, you think that your children are unwell. You trust your instincts, and you act on that. And I think that that is something that should not be undermined by the healthcare services. Yes. Had he offered it to me as myself when I was in seeing him for a routine checkup or something, then yes, I think I'd have taken it in a very different way and might have therefore reacted to it differently or found it you know, helpful, but I think in a way more than any of that I think time maybe. And, you know, me being able to process things myself has probably been, you know, hugely helpful in the whole in the whole healing process. And I think there's some things that you probably can't deal with until you've got some space on them, you know, until not necessarily a year later, two years later, whatever could be any length of time. But that until you're sort of not feeling the absolute rawness of it, that you can then sort of look back and consider, but that's really hard for anybody else to understand. You know, from his point of view, he was being kind and helpful, and probably was concerned. But I guess there's just different ways of approaching it, rather than sort of implying that, you know, you're taking up too much of my time, go and speak to somebody else. It just then took me to the point where I was then scared to make appointments, when I actually needed to, you know, because I thought, oh, gosh, they're gonna, they're gonna think it's me again, you know, which is not how anybody should feel.
Emma Pickett 1:26:11
It's my understanding that the rainbow moms really need good GPS, because you, you are bound to feel more worried and anxious. And even when they're legitimately, you're going to need extra extra sensitive care to Absolutely. Say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you had that experience.
Deborah McMorran 1:26:29
And there is part of that, that is, is totally to do with being rainbow parents, you know, because actually, there is a level of anxiety that you will feel if you've lost a child that you will, hopefully never feel if you haven't, you know, because actually until you know, and that's not to say that every parent doesn't fear something happening to their child. Of course they do. But there is just an added layer, just an added layer of of perpetual sort of concern that you're likely to have. If you've experienced something awful, you know, that's, that's again, that's just completely natural to be the case.
Emma Pickett 1:27:13
Yeah, for sure. But it sounds as though you're breastfeeding has helped for sure with with you. And I'm really pleased to hear that. I'm so glad you've had that experience there for this really special. Thank you so much for sharing your story today. I'm aware that we've talked for a long time, but there's no way we can we can edit. Anyone stuck stuck with us for an hour and a half. Thank you for sticking with us. Because Deborah story deserves anyone's time and you're obviously a very strong woman. I bet you're a brilliant peer supporter. I bet you've got lots of empathy for parents. And I hope that with your your breastfeeding support journey. So in the show notes, we'll put your Instagram handles, we'll put information about Tommy's and Aching Arms for those who would go to charities .
Deborah McMorran 1:27:58
Yeah, really, really helpful. Sorry, I suddenly felt like it was all just coming out.
Emma Pickett 1:28:04
Hey, don't you be so, don't you be be saying sorry. You've given me an enormous gift of your time and an enormous gift of sharing your story. And we need to hear about your losses to know how important that breastfeeding, healing must have been. You know, we cannot we cannot take five minutes to pull through losses and then go in there. Breastfeeding was brilliant. We need to know how important that was and how meaningful that was and hear the experiences you've been through. Thanks, Deborah. I really appreciate your time. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Deborah McMorran 1:28:32
Thank you.
Emma Pickett 1:28:38
Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.